Scott Cooper: All right, guys, today we're super lucky to welcome David Reichert. He is the founder of the United Dressage and Jumping Club. And we get to talk a little bit about what they're doing. And also I have so many questions about Hunter Jumpers and Dressage. So I'm super happy to get into this. David, to us from? Welcome back to another episode of Horse Show Bestie. I'm your co-host, Scott Cooper. Crysta Brown: And I'm your other co-host Krista Brown. Hi Scott, what have you been up to? Scott Cooper: Hi Krista. How you doing? ⁓ you know, same old, the last what? We're at almost eight weeks now. Recovery, but exciting news. I'm out of my splint pretty much full time. Yeah. So that's nice. I just wear it when I'm feeling extra vulnerable, like walking outside where I might trip. But honestly, I haven't really been doing that much the last few days. Crysta Brown: Hahaha Recovery. David Reichert: I'm in Houston right now, which is home. So normally I'm not at home very often, but I'm at home. Crysta Brown: Okay. Scott Cooper: off. Crysta Brown: That's perfect. So, okay, can you tell us a little bit about what UDJC is? What are you guys doing differently? Like, what are you guys trying to answer in the market? Scott Cooper: Because at this point, like the splint doesn't make it feel any better. then if anything, it's just going to like atrophy the muscle more the more I wear it. So now both my both my ortho and my OT were like, just stop using it much. yeah. Yeah, but it's still like guys, his tendons are so tight, like you can't see the video right now, but like it barely rotates up and down and side to side. So that's what we're working on right now. David Reichert: Yes, so have ⁓ obviously a ton of issues in the Hunter Jumper and Dressage market, ⁓ you want to call it a market in the equestrian scene. ⁓ Everything is going into a wrong direction. So many people, thousands, 10,000s people are being priced out. ⁓ It's not affordable anymore for regular people. Everything is ⁓ pretty gearing towards the top 1%. The shows are not affordable. The horses are not affordable. Crysta Brown: Yeah. Wow, okay, that's a big milestone. You'll get there though. Scott Cooper: We'll get there. But an exciting news, I saw Chipper the other day. It was, it was nice. I totally cried. I was like, ⁓ my God, I missed you. ⁓ I had to go down to that area for ⁓ work dinner. ⁓ I meant to go see him beforehand. But thanks to Southern California traffic, it took four hours to get down there. I was losing my mind. David Reichert: ⁓ So there are tons and tons and tons of issues. We don't have proper young horse programs. We don't really have trainers anymore who are able to ride young horses. So it's a whole downwards spiral of issues and we're just trying to ⁓ break that up with UDJC. We have a different philosophy. We have a different sense of community. We have a different sense of ⁓ how important is your horse actually, why... Crysta Brown: Yeah, you did. Was it fun to just like see him? ⁓ of you did. Scott Cooper: Which in hindsight was probably good because if I would have gotten out on there before dinner and it was light out, I don't know if I would have been able to not jump on a ride. So. David Reichert: Why do you need $150,000 horse in order to ride a low level hunter or dressage class? know, none of it makes sense. But that's just how the industry, you know, in the last 30 years. And you don't even really know who to blame. You know, it's just one of these things that probably just happens over time. You cannot really blame the trainers. You cannot really, I mean, you can blame the organization a little bit, but you can also blame the trainers, but they're not, you know, so it's kind of one of these things where you don't really know where it's coming from. ⁓ Crysta Brown: Yeah. Right. Right. Four hours is crazy though. I don't know how you people do it. Like to travel. Oh my gosh. Yes. Scott Cooper: It's crazy guys. Our gas price is not high enough. like I thought people weren't driving right now because of gas. yeah, anyway, apparently. Yeah, but yeah, after dinner, I was like, I'm 20 minutes away. I'm going to kick myself if I don't go like give him a treat. And I brought apples down for him. that's it. That's the extent of my horsiness lately. It's been super fun. But you just got back from Arizona. Crysta Brown: Apparently they all be on the roads in Southern California. David Reichert: we're definitely here to break that up. So everything is quite different in UDJC. And UDJC is nothing that has been invented, you know, like a year ago. I mean, we kind of came on the map a year ago, but what UDJC is, it's pretty much a best of the best systems in the world, just put together and translated into English. We have... Crysta Brown: Yeah, I was at the Arizona paint show. ⁓ it was cool. Cause I mean, I don't know if you saw the video, but we like shared the facility with the carousel show, which I always like. Yeah. And it's kind of interesting. So it's like half of West world in Scottsdale is this like carousel charity show. And then like the back half, like the outdoor arena and the one covered are for the paint show. So it's kind of. David Reichert: Probably 80 % of UDJC is the German system because I'm of course very familiar with the German system because that's where I grew up and it's also the most successful system in the world by far. And then there's, you know, some things we threw in from the British system and some things from the French system and some things from the Austrian system. So it's pretty much the best of the best and most proven systems in the world. And that's what we're trying to bring to the States because it's very different. Crysta Brown: Hey guys, a quick word from our sponsors. Scott Cooper: Yes, that show always overlaps. For years, Naomi Clayton of NAC Equine Services has helped paint and quarter owners, breeders, and trainers streamline the often overwhelming process of marketing and placing horses in the great new homes. She has a proven background as a paint and pinto breeder and amateur show exhibitor, as well as nearly a decade of experience as an equine sales agent. NAC Equine Services doesn't just post ads. For each listing, she also creates a detailed marketing plan, organizes photos, Mm. Crysta Brown: fun. I feel like you get to see people you wouldn't usually see. You get to kind of like see sports you wouldn't normally see. They have a lot of vendors over in that area. And then they had the draft horses, which I haven't been since the draft horses were like a part of that show. It was cool. I find everything that you just said, they're super fascinating. mean, I find it interesting. Even you're talking about a completely separate industry, like Scott and I don't have touch points with, know, dressage or the jumpers, but the quarter horses seeing a lot of things very similar. Like I think the problems that you're discussing seeing, we see that in quarters and paint horses as well. think people feel priced out. The average family can't participate. And additionally, I find it so interesting. I'm now, you know, Scott Cooper: Yeah, last time I went the draft horses weren't there. A lot of horses and carts, which of course our horses were like, what is that? And also like the saddlebreds, our horses were like, why are they so scared? Why should I be scared? I should be scared too, right? creates sale videos and manages communication so you don't get bogged down in the details. 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And I'm experiencing all these different cultures and kind of how they run their shows. And something I'm noticing is I do think some of these smaller European countries by nature of being a smaller country, things are more local, things are more grassroots. And I actually think in the States we could get back to that more. I think we need that kind of. Scott Cooper: signed contract and 5 % commission. Find her on Facebook under the NAC Equine or check out her website at nac-equine-services.com. Right, agreed. Crysta Brown: Now back to the episode. and then dealing with it if they're not. Because I saw a lot of that. You know, not everybody is going to haul eight hours down the road to go to a horse show and expecting that out of a family just getting started is unreasonable. Scott Cooper: Yeah, if you baby your horses like and don't expose them to anything then yeah, of course they're going to be a little skittish, especially if you are they read our energies people. David Reichert: Yeah. Well, it's a sense of community, which is very, very present in Europe. And it's not a thing at all in America. In America, everything is always business, business, business, business, which is very good. I like that. But then I hate it at the same time, of course, you when it comes to the equestria, when it comes to the lower level equestrian world. You know, if you want to run big five-star Grand Prix in Ocala with a million dollar prize money, Scott Cooper: Hmm. Crysta Brown: The more you freak out, the more they're going to freak out. just think you've got to, we just all need to chill is my point. And also I, I think it was an interesting experiment for us as a community to be welcoming and interested in new people instead of being like, you can't walk your horse over here. So like there was, you saw both, both ends of the spectrum. Scott Cooper: be on a good show. Mm-hmm. Crysta Brown: Yeah. Scott Cooper: Mm-hmm. Right. Ray, I always love when we share facilities with other types of shows because you your reminder that like the horse world is so big and like everything is so niche. My favorite moment was so many. ⁓ my gosh. I know that's that's why I always crack up when like I meet some random person and like, ⁓ I know someone who knows who like has horses. I'm like, I bet they're not even remotely close to the world we're in. David Reichert: perfectly fine, knock yourself out, do a business out of it and make a bunch of money and have spectators come and all of that. There's a bunch of very, very big shows obviously in Europe who are structured that way, they're business models pretty much. But when it comes to the grassroots, when it comes pretty much to national shows, ⁓ it doesn't always have to be about money. And what's very different ⁓ in America compared to the European countries is in the European countries, Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And there's so many different versions of it, yes. for sure. Scott Cooper: It's like, know someone else who plays a sport. It's like, okay, yeah, they play cricket and I play basketball. Crysta Brown: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Maybe we can relate on teamwork, but outside of that. David Reichert: the every sport that is connected to the IOC, to the Olympics technically, is ⁓ managed or not managed, but at least overseen by the government, by the agricultural department or whatever. So nobody can just go and run and do whatever they want. In America, it's very different because Youssef is a company. Well, it's a nonprofit actually. No, it's a company. So they do whatever is... Scott Cooper: Right. Right. But I do love seeing the other disciplines like when we were at Rancho a couple years ago, were sharing the facility with the hunter jumpers, which is also scary because I was super nervous I was going to get bullied by the teenage hunter jumper girls. They didn't know they were very nice, but it was it was very funny and it was a good time. And it was just fun to get to see another part of the horse world, which brings us to our guest today. Crysta Brown: No. David Reichert: you know, whatever gives them the biggest benefit, which is, of course, making the horse shows as expensive as possible. Nobody cares. Nobody thinks about, but how is this going to look like in 20 years? Because in 20 years, oh, there's going to be a different board and there's going to be a different CEO. So I don't really care. I want the most profit now. So and that's very different to the to the European countries. You know, it's not profit driven at all. So the the grassroots of the sport are always in the hands of people that are not in it for the money. Crysta Brown: Yeah. I was going to say, like, couldn't have asked for a better transition. That sort of happened accidentally. But yeah, so I reached out to The United dressage and jumping club, because I've been seeing a lot of their reels and TikToks and talking about like. I think they just have some really interesting ideas for how they're running their club and how they're trying to answer some of their concerns about horse shows and things that we hear a lot. Like, you know, if I don't have a hundred thousand dollar horse, I can't win. ⁓ I know that they're doing judge feedback, which is something you and I have talked about on the podcast we think would be important. ⁓ so I'm just really curious, ⁓ to kind of pick their brain and understand what they're doing differently and Scott Cooper: Mm-hmm. David Reichert: And also the community sense is very different because ⁓ everything in Europe is pretty much ⁓ ran or managed by riding clubs. Like we have a very, very big club culture in Europe that we don't have in America either. So you have a chess club in every little town in Germany. You have a soccer club, you have a chess club, have a rabbit breeding club. I'm not even kidding you. You know, for every single thing you can possibly do in your spare time, Scott Cooper: Love that. Crysta Brown: right. how it could maybe apply to some of our clubs because personally, and I know you agree, I think we have to invest back into the grassroots of our sport. So Scott Cooper: you David Reichert: There is an organized club where you hang out with your buddies and you do all your things. And of course, every little town, and they're dying too, a little bit, you know, so also the scene in Europe is going downhill. So everything in Europe is unfortunately developing a little bit more towards the American system where you have these equestrian centers that run like 30 shows a year and stuff. So that's a little concerning also in Europe, but still. Crysta Brown: ⁓ anyway, yeah, we'll take it away. David Reichert: The grassroot level is all managed in these clubs and every single club in every single town is running one or two horse shows a year. And everybody from the community is pitching in to help run that horse show. So you have five, six different people cooking and baking and selling food at the show. You have five, six people picking up the poles and dragging the arenas and also the facility is owned by the club, which is a nonprofit club. So that facility has been there for 50, 60 or a hundred years. the club maintains it, the club or the members of the club make sure that the arenas are always in shape and that the grass is mowed and all of that is a non-profit thing pretty much. It's a community thing of different people pitching in to make sure that the club can run the best horse shows possible. And they run very big horse shows. Everybody is always here in America scared of volunteers. ⁓ my God, I can't do that with volunteers. I gotta pay somebody $400 to pick up the poles in the ring. But hold on, I'm not only paying one person to do that, I'm better gonna pay six people to do that. So here you spend six times $400 a day for guys to pick up the poles in the ring. It's an absolute joke. In Germany, the dads do that. You give them a couple bottles of beer and they do it all day. So that's how this works. ⁓ it's just a very, very different atmosphere, very different culture. So these shows don't need to make money. That's of course why they're more affordable. Scott Cooper: Mm-hmm. you Hmm. David Reichert: ⁓ And that, you know, big parts of that are hard to translate into the American system because you don't have these community facilities. You know, let's put it that way. I mean, we do have some, you know, we have some, some, but not really, you know, there's always money involved in renting facilities or the facilities are owned by a writing program, of course, and they need to make a little bit of money, but it's still possible to recreate that scene ⁓ way better than we have it right now. Scott Cooper: Yeah, I as you're talking about that this makes me think of There are I can actually think of a couple examples in the states where? Clubs are doing that well I think of the WSEA system in the in the Midwest mostly Minnesota and Wisconsin where they still do have those I know they're always club-owned but like they're small backyard facilities like there's just a ring in an open field where you park your trailer and come in and that's really ⁓ maintained by volunteers in that in that saddle club like there's actual saddle clubs that still exist but in other parts of the country like I don't really know that much and I think part of it that or part of the issue that comes up is there's people that are super content showing that and then there's the rest of the population it's like okay well when do go beyond that like that's not good enough you need to go to the Breed Circuit shows and you need to go show at the big majors and David Reichert: That's the trainers pushing people into the wrong direction, you know, because they make, that's another big issue, at least in the English world. I don't know how it is in your world, the trainers, the business model is to make money at the horse show. The business model is to take people ideally as far away as possible because they make a bunch of money trailering and hauling and all that. You know, they take one trailer with eight horses and they charge every single person $2 a mile. You know, that's a... that $16 a mile, yeah, you wanna go as far as possible with these people, you know? So that's one angle of it. a lot of the trainers make their money at shows. They don't have a business built on making money at home, having a sustainable program at home, and then adding local shows to it. No, it has to be, it always has to be show, show, show, show, show. The trainers pretty much put that in the rider's ears. Hey, it's not good enough for you to show locally, even though you're still a very, very low level rider with your very, very low level horse. We have to go to Ocala. We have to go to WEC We have to go to Wellington. You know, it's, it's, ⁓ that's a big problem. You know, it's a, so the trainers put this wrong what is the right word? This wrong imagination in people's heads. You need nice pictures. from WEC We want to buy the pictures from the photographer at WEC so you can post them on Instagram. ⁓ it's just, it's sad, you know? And yeah, you have, like you said, we probably, mean, we have some park. We have a really cool show in Florida at Pinellas Park. They have a ⁓ city-owned equestrian center. They have two rings. It's a beautiful park. You pay a hundred bucks for the rings for the weekend if you want to rent them and run a show. It's a beautiful park, you know? But it's not for a lot of people. This is not. good enough, even though it should be good enough because that's exactly the level they're riding at. Crysta Brown: ⁓ my gosh. If I can speak to that for a second, I just had a conversation. were last week at a Scottsdale show and I had a conversation with another horse trainer and we were talking about what's happened to our club level. So typically like in the paint and quarter horse world, there's the local affiliate or the local club within paint horse. And they, when I was, you know, a teen operating in like the youth, there would be like a, you know, one judge, one day show or a two judge, two day show. Well, now we have three and four judge shows and you travel for them and really the club level has died a death. And I think we're seeing the consequences of that. But I think what you're saying is true to a degree because you're right. Like our horse trainers make their money at horse shows. And so they have to stay on the road and especially in our industry, as we've had fewer and fewer shows to offer, that means traveling farther and farther. And if you're sitting there and I have to tell my client like, Well, we could go to a two judge show and you're only to get points off of two judges or for essentially the same hall. can go to four judge show. It financially benefits that client to go to these larger shows with more judges, which has been really hard on our kind of sphere. But I also think, and maybe this is something you've experienced. So I've seen like the show jumping scene in Ireland and Northern Ireland. I mean, Most people don't have a horse trainer. And if they do go to the horse trainer, they haul in for a lesson, you know, and they leave or they drop the horse off for a week. And like, obviously there's a downside to that. I'm not saying horse trainers are the problem as a horse trainer. No, I love you all. Please come work with me. But I think there's a different business model. That means that we have more people participating because when we start to say that the only way to be a part of this sport, is to spend two grand plus a month leaving your horse in full time training and paying to haul it, that is going to price out the majority of the population. And we end up with this model where all of our horse shows just cater to that kind of top tier. And I'm curious, like, have you guys seen in UDJC have your kind of changes and efforts like brought out more DIY exhibitors, like more people that are doing it on their own, hauling on their own, or do you see a lot of horse trainers coming? David Reichert: both, both. We have people coming without any help, without any trainers. And we have also big trainers coming with a lot of clients and a lot of young horses and stuff like that. So we definitely have both, but, ⁓ definitely the industry has to develop way more into that direction that people are more able to do everything themselves. You know, that's a, if, if I would ask my, trainer when I was, you know, even 10 years old, Hey, can you come to the horse show with me? He would have looked at me like I'm an idiot. He's like, why are you asking me dumb questions? What am I supposed to do at the horse show? You know, I'm at home riding the horses, teaching my lessons. So you would never, never, never take a trainer to a horse show. Crysta Brown: Ha! David Reichert: in Germany. I went maybe three times in my life, I took a trainer to a horse show, which was European Championships and stuff like that. So a regular horse show, when I was seven years old or five years old, when I went to my first horse shows, you go with your parents, you're not taking a trainer. Everybody has a little trailer and you put that little aluminum trailer behind your Volkswagen and you throw your pony in and you go to the horse show. The difference is also that within an hour of a drive, Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. David Reichert: have five horse shows every single weekend, know, different levels. of course, it's a lot, it's a lot. ⁓ easy me to say that, you know, it's not that easy in America, all the small horse shows died, you know, we have to rebuild it completely. And those big equestrian like Trine and like WEC and like WEF, they're they're destroying all little horse shows, you know, it and this is sad and even ⁓ and even above the So so WEC Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Yep. We have to rebuild. Yeah. David Reichert: Ocala pretty much destroyed Texas in the last five six years. So this is really a legit thing that that happened. So we had when we came here ⁓ five years ago to the US we have a big show what used to be a big show in February here in Houston that was called the the winter series. It was four weeks of showing they had four five six different Grand Prix with a bunch of prize money and we had about a thousand horses competing. Crysta Brown: Hmm. David Reichert: The four so every week had about between 800 and a thousand horses. it was a for English It was a relatively big show ⁓ price money. It was a good show ⁓ ⁓ Then whack came into the picture and they started targeting the Texas market and they put all these things in the trainers and the customers ears you got to come to WEC because it's beautiful and it is beautiful, know and ⁓ All of a sudden everybody wants to go to to Ocala. Everybody wants to go to Ocala horse shows Scott Cooper: Mm. David Reichert: people save their money just to go for two or three weeks to Ocala. And also a lot of people move to Ocala. A lot of the big barns move to Ocala because this is where the money is now and this is where the industry is now and Texas is dead. So now five years later at the same show, this winter series, the four weeks at every single weekend, you have between 150 and 200 horses coming from four times that big. And it's just people. Crysta Brown: Yeah. Scott Cooper: Thank David Reichert: not coming to Texas anymore, but also even worse, people from Texas, barns trainers from Texas, moving to Ocala. It's just an industry shift and that industry shift would have never happened without these big equestrian centers. But then also at the same time, nobody's rebuilding that little show circuit and that's what we're trying to do. goal is we wanna have a UDJC show within an hour of a drive of everybody every single weekend during the show season. That's the goal. We want everybody to know that you can put your young horses and you can put your kids or your riders on the trailer and you can try for 45 minutes every single weekend to a UDJC show. That's the big goal because we need to rebuild that show scene because otherwise... Crysta Brown: I love it. David Reichert: You know, young horses, massive problem. mean, that's a totally different problem than you probably don't see that so much, obviously, in the Western world, because there are no young horses, no Western horses in Europe, or not really. But it's such a massive problem with Europe. You know, if you have a seven-year-old horse, let me give you an example. You have a seven-year-old horse in Europe. That horse has been brought up very, very professionally. So 99 % of the breeding, Crysta Brown: ⁓ we do. David Reichert: that happens in Europe happens in professional breeding facilities. They're specialized on breeding and also on bringing up these young horses. So every single horse, almost every single horse, every seven year old horse went through a professional breeding and ⁓ education program until they were seven years old. And on top of that, the seven year old horse went to probably 10 horse shows as a four year old to about Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. David Reichert: 15-20 horse shows as a five-year-old and 15-20 horse shows as a six-year-old. Horse show means in Europe for the young horses, you trailer to the horse show Fridays when the young horse classes are, you ride two classes and you go back home. That costs you 80 bucks at the most ⁓ and you're done. That's your show weekend. Here it means you put the horse on the trailer, you go somewhere five hours away and you stay there for three or four days and it costs you two grand, you know, so that's... Scott Cooper: Hmm. David Reichert: That's the different, because there are no horse shows close, you know, and not even that, there is no young horse program in USCF. Not really. They act like they have a young horse program, but they don't, you know, they always race the young horses against the clock. The courses are not built for young horses. They have to jump the same courses. The five-year-old meter 20 is the exact same five-year-old class that also the regular meter 20 is, you know, so there is no young horse program, not really. That seven-year-old horse, if you have a seven-year-old meter 30 horse in Germany, that doesn't have potential to be a meter 50 horse, know, a meter 45 horse. Let's say this is a meter 30 horse and it's probably always gonna be a meter 30 horse. That seven-year-old horse costs you in Europe, depending on where you buy, you know, depends on, but between 35 and 50 grand, somewhere in that area. That's the horse right there. That same horse, If you want to buy that same horse from an American trainer, it costs you 200 grand because so many people made money in between. But on top of that, if you want to produce that horse, it's not even possible in America because just going to these 50 shows as a four, five and six year old is going to cost you at least 60, 70 grand. Even if you find some cheaper shows and all that. So plus the breeding, plus all of this other stuff. So if you don't sell, Crysta Brown: Right. David Reichert: that same 7-year-old horse in America for 120 grand, you're losing money on it. So there's no way we can compete with Europe without building not only a young horse scene again and educating trainers that are able to ride these young horses, we also need to rebuild the show scene. So we pretty much have to rebuild everything from the scratch. Otherwise, you know, people say, yeah, the breeding in America, it's such, you know, the breeding is so much better in Europe. Well, it is a little better in Europe, yeah, but we can still breed really good horses here. You know, we have very good mares, we have access to the same stallions. The breeding is not the issue. The issue is that you have nobody to ride these horses and you have no shows to take them to. And that creates a massive problem. Crysta Brown: We are. I'm so sorry to hog this interview, Scott, but I'm like obsessed with everything that you're saying. I think you might be surprised how much our industry is in a similar position because most amateurs that come in, they need the broke like school master type and they want the horse that's ready to go show right now in like our most complex classes, which would be kind of the Western riding the trail because those are kind of the cool, fun ones. Scott Cooper: go off. Crysta Brown: I think there are very few trainers in our industry that are developing the young horses and we see the exact same things that you're talking about. It is so expensive to get a young horse broke and keep them on the road the way that they need to be exposed. Because like you're saying, it's not going to a weekend show and you haul in and haul out. It's even if it was a weekend, like you stalling overnight, like that's gone. It's four to six days. And so you're paying all of those fees on that horse the whole time to show them. And I think for most of our young horses, like, so we would put them in maybe one to two flat classes. So to send a horse all you're asking the owner to send that horse all that way to show in one to two classes with the horse trainer, because they're not quite ready for the amateur to do it. That's a lot to ask of somebody to get these horses developed. And I think very few people can do it. So then our horse prices have skyrocketed. David Reichert: Yeah. ⁓ Yeah, it's a massive issue and it all comes back to the local shows dying, you know, and that all comes back to the big equestrian centers and that all comes back to the big money. It's just, it's just, and it's so hard, you know, because it's not, it's not like, ⁓ yeah, you know, we just got to adjust a couple things and everything will be fine. No, we have to reinvent everything, the whole thing, you know, and we're not even, right now we're not even getting into the whole issue of having. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. whole thing. ⁓ David Reichert: all these beginner writers completely on the wrong path. That's a completely separate issue in, in, you know, but just, just that, young horse scene and the availability at, you know, shows to be available and accessible. That, that's a massive issue. And then on top of that comes the whole problem with the, with the judging, with the classic judging and the education behind it. So, It's not only important to make the shows more affordable and more accessible, if you bring the cost of showing down from whatever, $2,500 to $500, well, that doesn't even help you if you still require the lower level kid to have $150,000 horse in order to be successful in the class. So the whole hunter world is judged on the horse. The equitation world that claims to be Crysta Brown: Yep. Mm-hmm. David Reichert: judging or claims to judge the rider, that's a lie too, because if you don't have a $150,000 horse to go to an A show into an equitation class, you're not gonna get a ribbon either. So even though on paper it's judged on the rider, it's not. ⁓ So that is another massive issue, because if your seven-year-old kid does not have that little auto change hunter pony that costs 100 grand, you don't even have to go to the show, because you're not gonna get a ribbon. And this is, this is, extremely the wrong path because we're not teaching these kids how to ride and we're not teaching these kids to become good horsemen. We're teaching them, hey Susi, you just have to sit there, don't do anything. Jose is gonna bring the pony. The trainer has it prepared and sedated enough for you to get on and don't do shit. And then you come out and you get a ribbon because the pony did awesome auto changes. You don't even know if you're trotting or cantering, Susi, but don't worry about it because the pony's gonna do the auto change. Crysta Brown: Yeah. Right. Scott Cooper: Yeah. David Reichert: and you're gonna get a blue ribbon because you're so successful, you know, and tell the parents, look at how good Suzy's doing, you know? She's a... God damn it, you know, it's pathetic. What we're doing is, it's absolutely pathetic because there's no skill involved in any of the low-level hunter stuff. We're putting these kids completely on the wrong track. And don't get me wrong, I like... Crysta Brown: She's a prodigy. Right. David Reichert: I like a good hunter derby. I like watching a four foot six derby in Wellington because that's good riding and good horses and that's a good sport. You know, the problem though is that all this low level hunter crap we're doing does not lead to the hunter derby. It leads into nowhere because you can take a redheaded Irish boy from a meter 50 or meter 40 riding boy from Ireland. who doesn't even know what a hunter derby is. Well, he knows different hunters. know, the hunters are very different in England. But let's say, let's say you bring that Irish boy over here and you tell him, listen, this is a hunter derby in Wellington. Go watch a couple rounds and then we're going to put you on the hunter and you ride it the same way. He's going to watch two rounds. He's going to get on the horse and he's going to ride that hunter derby beautifully, even though he doesn't even know what hunters are. Crysta Brown: Right, yeah. David Reichert: just because he's a good rider, just because he was brought up correctly in proper style jumping, equitation, and even every single kid in Europe has to ride dressage classes educating these kids on the correct path and creating good horsemen and creating good riders, that is gonna create a good hunter because at the end of the day, it's all the same. There's no difference in riding. If you're a good rider, you can ride whatever. You can ride dressage can ride jumping, can ride hunters, you can even ride reining know, it's my wife, as an example, is a very good dressage and jumper. And we have a cowboy behind us here in Texas, the property next door. He's a reiner ⁓ a cool guy, by the way. All the cowboys are cool. So Jimmy, the cowboy, he is next door. And my wife likes to go down there and ride some reining horses every now and then. You know, the very first time she went down there and sat on a reining horse, the very first time, He's like, okay, just do this, da da da da, and she's like, ba ba ba ba ba, and he's like, so when did you start reining And she's like, this is the first time in my life in a Western saddle. But she's, course, because she's a good rider, able to do all this stuff, and you know, he tells her something, and she just does it, because she knows how to move a horse around. at the end of the day, it's all the same. You can take McLean Ward and put him on a dressage horse, and in three months, he's gonna go to the Olympics. And people are mind blown by that, but it's the truth, because he is just a badass rider. ⁓ Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. David Reichert: If you are a good rider, can do everything. But if we tell these kids in their very first lesson, Susi, you a hunter now and the most important thing is that you do nothing and we're not gonna teach you anything and you're gonna fine, well, that's absolutely the wrong path, you know? ⁓ And that's as you can and here it really pisses me off. It's bad because we have tens of thousands, ⁓ we have tens thousands of kids. Scott Cooper: Thank Crysta Brown: I had no idea. David Reichert: that are completely stuck in nonsense, nonsense. And then they tell them, ⁓ if really good at this, Susi, then you can go ride for college. ⁓ Good. ⁓ you there's a of problems. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Scott Cooper: Yeah. So. So what I gather from that is my Olympic dreams are not dead, in fact, because I was raised in the right system. Yeah. It'll translate right over. It'll be just fine. You know what? I'm going to call 100th number barn in Santa Barbara today. Just get on that. Crysta Brown: Yeah. Yeah, Scott, you're, you're a Western horsemanship rider. Your show jumping dreams are, you can have it. David Reichert: Ha! Yeah, do it. Do it. Scott Cooper: I'm curious, so how, like where do you start? Where do you start to fix this as an organization? Like what are you doing? What do your shows look like? How many are you offering? David Reichert: Well, have as of right now. So UDJC, I started UDJC not even a year and a half ago. So we, I was getting so frustrated with the system that I said in October, 2024, on November, 2024, said, okay, this is it. I'm going to lock myself in the office now and I'm going to write the rule book and write all this stuff. And then we're going to have to do it because I talked to a bunch of people, of course, you know, in the last five years, ever since we moved here and I wanted to do changes and stuff. realized, okay, nothing's gonna change. So I said, either I have to stop bitching or I have to ⁓ fix it myself. So that's what I did. I locked myself in the office and put everything together. So that's a little bit more than a year ago. Last year we had about, ⁓ I think 40 or 50 shows. This year, so far, we have about, I think, 100 shows on the schedule, but I have probably 100 more behind that we're not publishing right now or we're not doing it right now because I have to Crysta Brown: You sound like us. That's great. David Reichert: You know, we have to grow halfway decent healthy. So everything is working pretty fast. Everything is coming together pretty fast. And I don't want a lack of quality because we don't have our crap together in the back. So we're probably going to end up having 150 shows this year, I would assume. Yeah, that's good. And we have two different types of shows. have circuit shows and we have foundation shows. The circuit shows happen at the moment in Texas and in Florida. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Scott Cooper: That's amazing. David Reichert: And the circuit shows are on a bigger scale. So they're in big equestrian centers, ⁓ typically four days with overnight stalls with all three disciplines, dressage jumping and hunters. And, but they're still very, very affordable. So our most expensive circuit show is at Terra Nova, which is also the most beautiful place you can imagine ⁓ in Florida. ⁓ I love Terra Nova. That's the most expensive show we have. four days of, or three days of showing plus a warmup day. So three nights, including the shavings, including the stalls, including everything is on average between 400 and 450 bucks, which is super, super cheap. It's not cheap, but it's very cheap, you know, for what you normally, because normally that show would cost you like two and a half grand or something like that. yeah, that's very, yeah. ⁓ Crysta Brown: Wow. Yeah. No, but that's, yeah. Scott's flabbergasted right now. Scott Cooper: I mean, I can't even get a haul for that. Like, that's crazy. David Reichert: Yeah, that's very affordable and that's our most expensive one, you know? So the circuit shows ⁓ in Florida and in Texas right now are organized by UDJC, by us as an organization. Just the Terra Nova one is organized by Terra Nova, but all the other circuit shows are organized by us because we don't want to tell anybody, why don't you go ahead and rent ⁓ a $30,000 equestrian center and then we hope for somebody to show up, you know? We don't want to do that. So we take that risk ourselves. Crysta Brown: Yeah. David Reichert: the circuit shows are ran by UDJC. And then we have foundation shows which are ran by anybody else. We have UDJC certified riding schools. Typically the writing schools put on the foundation shows at their barns or it's a local show manager who has access to like a local affordable venue where they run little shows. ⁓ And the foundation shows are being spread all over the country. So we have foundation shows in, I don't know, at the moment, 11 or 12 different states, I think. ⁓ And everybody can technically, not everybody, I mean, we have, of course, some quality assurances and stuff, but technically everybody can put on a foundation show and the foundation shows can look completely differently. Like we can have a foundation show, a tiny one with 15, 20 horses only at somebody's barn where only the kids from the barn ride and they don't even have ⁓ have, you know, space for lot of trailer ins and stuff. So it's a very, very tiny foundation show, they're always recognized. So they're always with UDJC judges. They're always by our rule book. You know, the riders get points and qualification scores and all of that. So they're not schooling shows. They're fully integrated into, into UDJC. ⁓ you know, if somebody wants to run a foundation show in California and they want to do an eight, eight week circuit with a hundred thousand dollar meter, 50 grand prix every day, well, they can do that. You know, that would be considered a foundation show as well. ⁓ so foundation shows look a little differently. Every single one of them, they happen in smaller equestrian centers typically or at somebody's barn. And they're just super accessible, you know, because you have trailer in options. Typically the trailer and doesn't even cost anything. So you can really go there, write your two classes and go back home and it's going to cost you 80 bucks or something like that. So that's the foundation shows. And of course, we're trying to build as many foundation shows as possible. Crysta Brown: amazing. David Reichert: As far as the circuit shows go, you know, we have circuit finals and championship finals and stuff like that. We want to bring a circuit also to every single area in the U.S., but we have to build that step by step because we're doing it and we are a team of two and a half people, you know? So it's not like I have 20 people sitting behind me and, you know, everything is very small and everything is very hands-on. So we just have to make sure that everything, you like I said before, is still in a good quality and we can do it. Scott Cooper: Thank David Reichert: The goal is I'm finding people to take over the Florida and the Texas circuit next year, and then we will see where do we have the most traffic, foundation show and certified riding school wise in which area. And that's where we're going to bring the next two circuits. know, so if we see, hey, we have a lot of traffic in Virginia, we have really cool foundation shows in Colorado, the area is ready for a bigger circuit, then these are our next two circuits. So then we're focusing on these two new areas. Crysta Brown: Hmm. David Reichert: before we go a year later and add another two circuits. So the goal is in four or five years to have not only the foundation shows everywhere, but also a matching circuit everywhere. It's a little bit, I hate to use these terms, drive me nuts, but it's a little bit, if you think about it, it's a little bit like the circuit shows are our A shows and the foundation shows are our schooling shows, but they're not. They're all full, fully integrated UDJC shows. Just smaller scale, bigger scale. So that's the game plan, let's see how it works. A lot of it is try and error, kind of. So last year we did a bunch of shows all over the country and most of them we organized ourselves and then we realized, okay, this is really hard. We're trying to put on a show together in Colorado but we don't know anybody in Colorado. So that's a little tricky. So that's what happened last year. And then this year. Scott Cooper: I have a- David Reichert: we came up with this foundation and circuit concept and it seems to work pretty well so far. you know, but if it doesn't work, we might have to change that again in a year. You know, who knows, you know, we just have to start somewhere and see how things go. So there's no, there's no game plan how to come to a new country and build a new organization from the scratch and fix the whole equestrian world. So we just have to kind of go with the flow and see how it goes. Scott Cooper: Well, people try it all the time. I'm looking at you, Rail Horse. Yeah. Crysta Brown: You David Reichert: Well, people talk about it all the time, but they never try. They just talk about trying. just talk about, you know, there's a lot of talk. Nobody really tries anything. Crysta Brown: that for sure. I think... Scott Cooper: Yeah, I have a, friend who his daughter is ⁓ just, you know, perfect example of like, ⁓ somebody who started taking lessons during the you know, just like the little riding school ponies and now is really interested, ⁓ but like is not probably ever going go to Wellington. ⁓ But does 100 jumpers now. ⁓ And all the time. her parents tell me like, oh yeah, she just had a show last weekend and oh, she's gonna show next weekend. In my head, like I'm thinking, okay, when it's got so whatever but like, they're all just at her barn. Like that's a show and I'm like, that's great. You didn't have to pay 1000s of dollars to go do this and your kid got the experience to compete and get judged and I just I really appreciate that about the community. I had a follow up question with like the circuit shows. Like we've touched on this a little bit but like one of the biggest costs about Crysta Brown: Yeah. Scott Cooper: putting on shows is the facility. how do you keep the cost of these shows down? David Reichert: Well, by just, you know, the biggest, of course, the biggest expense is the facility. So when we have a show, you know, let's say here at the Great Southwest Equestrian Center in Katy, to rent the facility, I mean, it depends on how big the show is and how many rings you need, but typically we need three rings and we have like 150 horses coming and they stay for, so we pay for the stalls per night. the equestrian center. So we don't rent all the thousand stalls they have, of course, you know, we rent, we pay for every single stall we need, technically. We pay for the rings, we pay for the stalls, we pay for all the other stuff. And typically that cost us about, just so people get an idea, the equestrian center at that size for 150 horses cost us about between 30 and 35 grand. That's how expensive it is. But that is almost the only expense we have because it's very, very hands-on. We work with a lot of volunteers. So the judges get paid, of course, the judges get paid 400 bucks a day in UDJC. And we have some insurance that we have to pay for, we have to pay for some ribbons, but we don't hire six people to pick up the polls. We have somebody's dad pick up the polls. And same for the announcing, we don't hire $800 a day announcer. We have... you know, a dad announcing and he has been doing it for 10 shows already now. So he's pretty good, you know, that guy's pretty good, but I don't have to pay him. You know, I give him a good deal for his daughter's show and that's it pretty much, you know, so, and he loves doing it, you know, so he can't wait to come to the show and announce again, you know, and the guy's a pilot. He's like, yeah, you know, this is the coolest thing I can do is announcing at the shows. So. Crysta Brown: Yeah. Mm-hmm. David Reichert: So we're building a great network of volunteers. And then also on top of that, UDJC is not built as a business venture. I don't care if it makes money or not. There are a lot of shows where we're losing a bunch of money. I just need to do this to fix the industry because I love the sport way too much in order for watch it go to shit. I don't wanna let that happen on my watch. You know, we just gotta, but it's not, it's not built as a business. Yeah. Will it, will it become maybe at some point a business when we have enough members and enough shows and all of that? Is it ever going to stop losing money? Yeah, probably. You know, but this is not the main goal. The main goal is not, ⁓ let's run some horse shows and make a bunch of money doing it, you know, because then that's the wrong, that's the wrong path. So it's not, not money driven at all. Crysta Brown: Could I ask you to speak a little bit more to what you guys are doing with judging? Because I think that's like a really important piece to the conversation. You know, like we're saying, it's like, there's all these different pieces of the pie that none of them are working. But I think judging is particularly tricky because you, hear people all the time in our industry say like, you know, that judge sucks. So we need better judge education and all these things. But I'm sitting here as someone interested in getting a judging card and I'm already thinking like, David Reichert: Yeah. Crysta Brown: It is so much work for somebody to get their judging card. We have all these restrictions, all of this testing. And I think that should be there, but the reward isn't there. They don't get to be career judges in our world. They're doing it on random weekends. And I think it can be really hard to balance. Like how do we keep it accessible enough that we create a large enough pool of judges that we can realistically hold shows without flying judges from all over the country? but also make sure we are bringing quality to our judging so that people are getting value out of their horse show placings. David Reichert: It's very hard. So especially in UDJC, it's even harder because every single round that is judged in UDJC, you get feedback from the judge on the microphone every single round. So it's not just giving a score. Giving a score, every monkey can do that. Giving a score is the easiest thing in the world. I can pull the 10 year olds out of my riding school and I have them judge. Crysta Brown: Right. Scott Cooper: That's amazing. David Reichert: a little Tresach test or have them judge a little equitation class, a little hunter round or something like that. And they can all come up with decent scores, you know? So the scoring is not even the issue. It becomes a very, very big issue when you give somebody a microphone and let them talk. we are so picky when it comes to judges. I have the hardest time finding judges because that component of speaking on the microphone and Crysta Brown: Yeah. Yeah. David Reichert: how they speak and what they talk about is just so tricky. I want to give you an example. you have two different judges, they watch a style jumping round like an equitation class and they say, ⁓ the scoring is simple. The judge number one gives you a 7.5, which is ⁓ a score, 7.5, and talks on the microphone saying, ⁓ I liked your round, I give you 7.5. but you're pulling way too much. If you stop pulling tomorrow, you're gonna get a better score tomorrow. Okay, cool. The next judge watches the exact same round and also says, yeah, I kinda liked it. 7.5 takes the microphone and says, hey, you're not pulling enough. If you start pulling a lot more, then you're gonna get an eight tomorrow, you know? So you have the same score, but you have two completely different perspectives. One of them obviously is right. or 90 % right and the other one's 90 % wrong. So that's a very big issue. So that factor, microphone is a huge issue for us. We have wonderful judges. ⁓ The ones we have are absolutely wonderful. So if you talk to people that came to UDJC shows, they will tell you, yes, the judging was wonderful. I got good feedback. I was actually able to do something with the feedback. We see kids' progress from Thursday to Sunday tremendously. It's mind-blowing, you know? And it's not because, it's not mainly because the judges know way more stuff than the trainers. That's not even the case, you know, sometimes, because some trainers are obviously really good. But it's also just having it in different words and hearing it from a different person, you know, that changes dramatically. So we have huge progress within the shows. Crysta Brown: I bet. Scott Cooper: awesome. Crysta Brown: Yeah. David Reichert: And a lot of trainers are scared of the judge feedback. If your trainer is a scam, don't worry about it. You're not going to go to a UDJC show with your trainer because your trainer is going to... No, for real. know, like if you're... It's crazy. You know, we have trainers that say, I cannot go to UDJC show because of the judge's feedback. They're so insecure about the judge's feedback that they're not taking their kids to the show, which is mind blowing. And we keep saying, you know, and we have moms contacting us saying, hey, Crysta Brown: Yes. Crazy. Scott Cooper: Yeah. David Reichert: You know, we want to come to you DJ C shows, but our trainer refuses, blah, blah, blah, you know, also because of the judge's feedback. And we tell them straight up, we tell them your trainer is a scam. I mean, that's what it is. You know, there's no black and white. It is what it is because a good trainer, if McLean ward is your trainer, you know, he's not going to be scared of judges feedback. He's going to say, this is awesome. You know, Scott Cooper: Yeah, yeah. That is so wild. Mm-hmm. David Reichert: Let's let the kid hear it with a different voice from a different angle and then afterwards we can talk about it. And even if he totally disagrees, you can get something valuable out of it, you know? So there's nothing to be scared about. There's nothing to... So anyways, ⁓ yes, yes, yes, yes. Crysta Brown: Yes. for sure. No, that speaks to trainers and security for sure, because I've heard the same with clients going to clinics with other people. I've heard some trainers say I would never allow that because they're going to come back with all these different opinions. for me, I'm like, first of all, most of the time what happens is the thing that I've been trying to get them to do for six months, the other trainer says in a little bit of a different way and it clicks for them. And I'm like, win, win for all of us. Scott Cooper: Well... Yeah. David Reichert: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, 100%. Scott Cooper: Well, well, and like, why are why is the horse world so special that we can't do what the rest of the livestock world does? All the other livestock shows the judges talk on the microphone like I grew up showing sheep and like you always got feedback at the end in front of everyone. I once had a judge in showmanship tell me I was holding my lamp too tight and so I hold it less tight than this time and then she was like, you need hold it tighter. Anyway, that was ugly, but bad example. But David Reichert: Yeah. Scott Cooper: Every other type of show you do with animals, the judges talk. So why should horse judges be so sacred that like they can't explain themselves? David Reichert: Well, because they can't explain themselves a lot of times. That's why. That they shouldn't. They shouldn't. A lot of the judges shouldn't, you know, and coming back to your question, where do we find the judges? Well, we find them anywhere. You know, we don't, so we don't, when it comes to our judges' education, we don't educate a judge because if we have to educate a judge, that judge is not a judge, you know, so. Scott Cooper: Sometimes, yeah. Right. David Reichert: you have to come already highly educated. We don't, and you see that in the other disciplines, you know, they say, you you can come to our judges clinic and then you have to go through all this education and then you become a judge. You know, the education is being in the industry for 40 years. That's your education right there. And if you didn't get enough education in those 40 years or 30 years, then you probably, you know, didn't have pretty good, you cannot educate a judge. Crysta Brown: Yes. David Reichert: because it takes years and years and years, obviously, you know? So we're on a different standpoint. We take as judges, well, we have certification processes and we have a judge's symposium that is a five-day clinic, if you want so, that always happens during our circuit shows. So we invite 10, 15 possible judges to our symposium. And then for one day or one and a half days, they have... classroom education, but this is pretty much just going through the score sheets and explaining them how to, where to put the scores and what is being judged here and how does this class work, because all the classes work a little differently. So we do that one and a half days classroom education. And then for three days, they are with the judges watching everything. We even give them the microphone during that time and see how they talk and see what they have to say and all that. And then afterwards, They have on the fifth day they have a test of course a very complex test that they have to pass But we pretty much get a very good idea even in the you know during the first day if these people are gonna work out for us or not So we we take we take people that are highly highly educated already and they don't technically have to be Judges, you know, we take high-level trainers. We have high-level writers We have some people that are high-level judges as well, you know, but we don't say you have to be a judge in order to be a judge in UDJC because every high level trainer who has a clue is automatically a good judge, especially when it comes to that feedback portion. That is the most important portion of everything. But it's a big issue for us to find judges, to be honest. have, at the moment for all these shows, we maybe 15 judges. and 10 of them are pretty active and five of them are kind of back up. So we run all these shows with kind of eight to 10 judges at the moment, which is an issue, of course, especially when it comes to growth and all that. But that's the one thing that we really, I'm going to die on that hill. You know, we're not going to get anybody on a microphone who is not really, really good. So, you know, and people are worried about that sometimes. People are like, yeah, but you know, a UDJC show, I don't even know who the judges are. Well, Scott Cooper: Hmm. David Reichert: Be sure, because we're so anal and so picky about that, these judges are very, very good. Otherwise, they wouldn't be a UDJC judge, because I'm not gonna let this fail because of the quality of the judging. So that's one of our absolute holy grails is the judging. Crysta Brown: That's amazing. I certainly like hearing you talk about it. I'm like, no, no, that's great. And Scott and I have talked about how that's something we long for it. Our shows is I'm like, even if they just picked two classes where the judges got on Mike and just gave us the reasons, like, why is this one a second, first place horse? Why is this one a second place horse? And just kind of brought us into that education. But I think there's always 5 million reasons not to do it. So I love that you've just like torn down the barriers. ⁓ David Reichert: Yeah, just gotta do it. You know, just gotta do it. But then you just gotta make sure that you have good people talking on the mic. You know, that's the tricky part. Crysta Brown: Absolutely. Yeah. And as we start to kind of wrap up here, I would love to just get your thoughts. Okay. There's going to be some people listening to this that are currently volunteering in their local club or affiliate, and they are trying to grow the grassroots locally in their area, ⁓ in that like paint and quarter horse realm, which do you have any advice you would offer to them? Like, what do you think that maybe these people already involved in their local club can do to help grow things and help improve our industry? David Reichert: Well, just keep volunteering. I'm you are you talking about the you're talking about Western specific right now? You know? Yeah, I mean, yeah. I know. Crysta Brown: Yeah, yeah. Like speaking to our listeners, I know you're not a part of it, but if you can speak to what you've seen and what you've seen be successful at that kind of local level, what could they do to help improve their club? David Reichert: what just just be be as involved as possible and also pulled through, you know, don't don't cancel an hour before, you know, all this stuff that happens with volunteers just be, you know, be be on time and just, you know, get get the get also get the word out, make sure that everybody understands, you know, that we need these little clubs and we need these little shows in order to to save the industry and and ⁓ you know, it's kind of hard for me to give advice and I, you know, but it's like just see what needs to be done and do it kind of, you know, and even if your job as a volunteer is working the gate, if you see, well, it's a little different in your sport, but let's, you know, let me do my, let me do my example in the 100 jumper world. If you're working the gate and you see somebody knocked the pole down and the pole down guy is not there, go pick the pole up, you know, go pick up the trash, go. Crysta Brown: But no, that's a thing, Yeah. Scott Cooper: and David Reichert: Just be involved and make sure that these shows are successful based on volunteers. Show everybody that you don't need paid positions to have a good ass show. Crysta Brown: Absolutely. Scott, you have anything before we wrap up? Scott Cooper: No, I just, I love this energy and I just want clarify, judges, we still love you. Just don't take me for anything here. Right, yeah. Right, everyone plays for you. Crysta Brown: Yeah, we love horse runners. We love judges, but there's everyone plays a piece in fixing things. David Reichert: Well, and of course, there are a lot of awesome judges and there are also a lot of awesome trainers. So I don't want to sit here and say, every single judge is bad and every single trainer is bad. That's absolutely not the case. We have wonderful trainers in this country. We have wonderful judges in this country, but we also have a lot of the opposite. that's an issue. ⁓ Scott Cooper: Yeah. David, where can people find you or find more about the organization? David Reichert: Just udjc.org is our website and then we're pretty present on social media. You know, we have if you go to the website to the starting page, we have different calls every week ⁓ specifically for people who want to get information about a specific topic. You know, if you want to if you're interested in judging, we have a judge's call once a month where we talk about the judging and tell you the next steps how to get involved. And we have ⁓ like a call for people that are interested in organizing shows and stuff like that. So on the website, you find these different calls, but you can also just reach out anytime, email, Facebook Messenger, we're always available. Crysta Brown: That's so cool. Thank you so much for giving us your time and speaking to this. think you are a, uh, I think you're a brave voice for speaking honesty into these spaces because if we don't start getting honest about what the problems are, how can we start to fix them? Um, so we really appreciate everything you said today and all of your efforts and, uh, guys, we're going to leave you and, uh, just remember that you can't be all of the good that the horse show world needs, but the horse show world needs all of the good that you can do. Thank you. Bye. Scott Cooper: Yes. Thanks guys. David Reichert: Thank you guys.