Scott Cooper: We are here with Bill Kavin ⁓ from NSBA. ⁓ Bill, can you tell us a little bit about what you do at NSBA? Bill Kaven: ⁓ well I I do oversee ⁓ the judges here at NSBA. That includes all ⁓ applicant testing, that includes educational seminars, I'm to judges whenever they are even on scene, ⁓ i they have a question, you know, anything like that that comes up that they're not, you know, sure about or need to notify the office about. ⁓ Scott Cooper: two. Hi, welcome back to another episode of Show Bestie. I'm your co-host, Scott Cooper. Crysta Brown: And I'm your other co host, Crysta Brown. Hi Scott. Scott Cooper: We're starting off strong. Our amazing editor, Lauren, is has a little bit of work to do already in the first like thirty seconds 'cause I wasn't paying attention. Y'all it's early. I have like and I have like two brain cells left after this past weekend. Bill Kaven: So I also work in conjunction with our show department and I deal a lot with the show approvals. ⁓ so I kind of help market NSBA especially with show managers ⁓ that are new to NSBA ⁓ and ⁓ give them the the benefits ⁓ of offering NSBA to event and how it can ⁓ benefit their event. So do a lot of that. Crysta Brown: When do we have more than two brain cells though is the real question. Scott Cooper: That's that's also true. And they're fighting for third place. Crysta Brown: Mm. I'm having a great day. I mean, maybe you're having like a week and a half, but like let me tell you. So I went out to ride. I already told Scott this. I'm telling you again. I went out to ride and the rain literally was like pelting down my whole way out to the barn. I'm just thinking to myself, like, it's gonna be one of those days, like I'm just gonna have to suck it up. It's fine. And then I got there, sun comes out for my entire ride. I like finish, put horse away, get to my car, rain starts again. And I was like, wow. Scott Cooper: No. Bill Kaven: And then another big facet of my job is I manage our yearling sale at the World Show every year. So ⁓ yeah, yeah. So the yearlink sale is it from the time I start diving into the yearling sale till it's closed out, that's a good four months of of my my time here. it does ⁓ 'cause Scott Cooper: Which I'm a big fan of. Crysta Brown: I'm God's favorite child. Everything's gonna go my way today. think most the world's a big fan. Scott Cooper: God God shone his face on you. I love that for you. Crysta Brown: Literally it was a blast ride. Mm-hmm. Scott Cooper: That's great. I y'all, just so you guys know like our logistics, Crysta is obviously in Ireland, which is a eight hour time difference. I know, I have to check every time. I should know this. Yeah, eight hours. ⁓ ⁓ got up at five thirty this morning because your boy has not like ⁓ a lick of fitness the last week. So I got up, got Peloton in, got the dogs walked because I had to walk them this morning because Craig's got stuff going on in LA. He's gonna leave for it anyway. So I've open at him. Bill Kaven: 'Cause I have to check in all the yearlings and and deal with all the paperwork. and then obviously organize all the sale components while at the world show, be available ⁓ to talk with consigners ⁓ and buyers and also help to get people to understand about our sale graduate program, which is one of the big ⁓ benefits of a horse out of our yearling sale where they can come back and win Crysta Brown: Eight hours. Mm-hmm. Wow. Scott Cooper: And I am hi I am highly caffeinated, but also the the two brain cells, they're like they're they're trying to rub together and and form a little neuron, whatever. Don't don't at me. I'm not a biologist. Bill Kaven: massive checks. ⁓ Yeah. What wait. ⁓ yeah. Yeah, it Yeah, it's a great program. So ⁓ what we do is we we set aside a purse from each sale year and that purse is divided in half. ⁓ sale graduates, the horses that actually sell to the arena, get to come back and pick Crysta Brown: Wait, I'm not sure I know about that. You may have to tell me more. Let me say I do appreciate you being able to come on early because like for me I feel so much more alive, awake, enthusiastic. Like pre eight PM, post eight PM, it gets a little hairy for me. Scott Cooper: I've heard about this. Crysta Brown: Hey guys, a quick word from our sponsors. Scott Cooper: Yeah. Guys we were gonna record on Sunday. I didn't get home till like three o'clock and I text Crysta and she's like, A, I forgot. B it's like the middle of the night for me. I'm like, Yeah, what are you doing? So it was it was a mutual like mm, not today. For years, Naomi Clayton of NAC Equine Services has helped paint and quarter owners, breeders, and trainers streamline the often overwhelming process of marketing and placing horses in the great new homes. She has a proven background as a paint and pinto breeder and amateur show exhibitor, as well as nearly a decade of experience as an equine sales agent. NAC Equine Services doesn't just post ads. For each listing, she also creates a detailed marketing plan, organizes photos, Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. I do like sometimes I have the hopes. I like really I'm like, ⁓ I want to. Like there's things I want to talk about and put out in the world. But then I'm like on the couch, cozy. Chris is out of town as well. Which like Chris being out of town really just means for me that like I clean my house a lot. And then I have girl dinner, which means like no cooking, a ⁓ pre-made, but like a lot of salads. I did like a you'd be very proud of me. ⁓ Ooh, okay, wait. Actually, I have to tell you, so me and Chat GPT. Bill Kaven: any BCF two year old class or BCF three year old class to participate in to get a chunk of that purse, a payout from that purse. So so now the the unique thing about that program compared to other sale programs is they can pick any class. So they can pick a non pro class, they can pick an open class, they can pick limited, ⁓ Hunt Seat Western Crysta Brown: ⁓ okay. Okay. Scott Cooper: Farrell. creates sale videos and manages communication so you don't get bogged down in the details. Her commitment to professionalism and finding the right home shows in the countless clients who rave about their friendly, efficient and smooth experience from first contact to the final sale or purchase. Whether you're looking to sell or find your next partner, trust a service with real industry knowledge and reviews that speak for themselves. NAC Equine Services has competitive and transparent pricing, $50 listing fee, Ooh. Bill Kaven: You know, we've had it where they thought they bought a a Western pro prospect and it turned into a Hunt Seat horse and then they come back and win their money showing in the Hunt Seat class. So ⁓ the flexibility of of them getting to choose what class that they want to participate in in order to get ⁓ a payout ⁓ is a real ⁓ drawing point for buyers. and and Crysta Brown: We have been working really hard on our family meal planner. So now I have a custom GPT that acts as our nutritionist and meal planner. So I put in like Chris and my height and weight. And so it's like thinking about all of our macros and then it like comes up with like meals based off of things that we like. It's amazing. Scott Cooper: That sounds awesome. I I I have a friend and this he started this like a year or two ago where he tracked all his fitness stuff on Chat GPT and he would like take pictures of the meal and it can tell him with the calories, the macros, and like it's pretty it's pretty accurate. Yeah, it's a great tool. While we're on the subject of chat, you guys both know like we use it. It's fine. But there's a couple of things I wanna address about AI right now. A I think we're all frickin' sick of it, for one. signed contract and 5 % commission. Find her on Facebook under the NAC Equine or check out her website at nac-equine-services.com. Bill Kaven: They do have to end up in top ten in the class to achieve a check, but we don't know the amount of the checks until all declared horses have shown. And so let's take for easy math, ⁓ there's a hundred thousand in the purse, ⁓ let's say ten horses qualify in classes across ⁓ the three-year-old classes. We've even had trail horses qualify. So then we divide that. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. It's really good. Now back to the episode. Scott Cooper: I do like it for like helping write or proof or stuff like that. But you guys, if I see one more flyer made from AI, I'm in the lose it. I'm in the lose it. Stop. They all look the same. They look shitty. Half the time it's missing information. And like it it doesn't differentiate you from all I would rather see pen and paper ad. Like just just take a Sharpie and write it on right. I would rather see a Sharpie on cardboard. Bill Kaven: number of qualified horses, which is ten, into a hundred thousand and each horse receives a ten thousand dollar check, regardless of where they placed within the class, as long as it was top ten. So you can be the tenth place horse in the class and still qualify for the graduate money and receive a ten thousand dollar check. Crysta Brown: Wow. Draw something. Yeah. Scott Cooper: Stop with the AI flyers. There's Canva. Canvas free. There's templates. It's so easy. ⁓ my God. That's amazing. And so and when you say classes, are you're talking about BCF at like APHR World Show or Quarter Horse World Show? Crysta Brown: I'm really glad you brought this up because I was thinking about this the other day and like I would like to take a more educational approach. Okay. The point of marketing is to stand out and to define your brand, right? Like we market like we have a set of brand colors, like we have a logo. We are like trying to make you so that you can automatically look at it and think Stockhorse Ireland or Crystal Brown Horsemanship or whatever it is that we're working on with the project. Bill Kaven: No, no, no. The Breeders' Championship Faturity classes at the NSBA World Show. Yeah, so the yearlings have to be Yeah, the the Yearlings have to be in the Breeders Championship Faturity program, whether that's the color portion or whether that's the regular portion. ⁓ and then and then now we've expanded it even to our ranch BCF. They could also participate. Scott Cooper: Okay. I'm just angry. And N S P A. Okay. Awesome. ⁓ Crysta Brown: I just paid Ricky Bobby into them. Scott Cooper: Yes. Yes. Crysta Brown: The problem with chat GPT and the problem with all of these where like I can tell you guys are putting in the most generic prompt where it's like make a flyer for our spring show and it's gonna give you it's gonna give you the same thing that it's giving everybody else with a similar prompt. And what I would maybe encourage people to do instead is like have Canva say, build me a layout, an example of how I should lay out all of the information, and then I want you to type out Bill Kaven: Yeah, it it's open to any horse in any of those programs. ⁓ but they do have to be enrolled in it to go through the yearling sale, ⁓ that to then be eligible. they come back, they enter that particular class, they have to achieve a top ten finish. And then they become eligible for a payout. Scott Cooper: That's Western themed. Crysta Brown: really neat. I didn't know that that was even a part of the yearling sale. I just knew that there was a really popular yearling sale. all of the information that the flyer needs to have that's important. And then maybe say like I want it to be mostly an image or I want it to be like give it really good specifics of what you're looking for. Have it build you the layout. Then new tab, open up Canva and then use your brand colors, your brand fonts. And if you haven't done that, that is really easy to do and it will really help you stand out and define a brand. But the point of branding and marketing is to be unique. And so when you are spitting out the same thing every time Bill Kaven: Yep, that's why. We just had a recent post on our Facebook with Jolene Wads and ⁓ she's bought several horses out of our sale. You need to go watch that clip because it ⁓ she does a great job of explaining why as a buyer she looks for all of her prospects out of that sale. Scott Cooper: Yeah, I I've heard a thing Crysta Brown: Definitely. Scott Cooper: It I mean, it sounds like an amazing incentive program and I've I've seen a horses list it and they always list like this is a sale grad, like this will get you things and I and I've seen mentions of it, which is really cool. So this ⁓ rehyper fixates me on ⁓ finding a yearling. Thanks, Bill. I ⁓ I I I was literally watching this sale last year. We were out on Cape Cod for vacation and I was with ⁓ actually John Anderson and Steve Russman too. So we were all watching it and like Crysta Brown: I don't even notice it's a horse show sometimes. Like I really and I I've gone so far with this Scott. I've even thought for like Stockworth Saryland, I've seen a few ⁓ like Western artists on TikTok recently who are like painters and like small, maybe like, you know, fifteen hundred followers, but like doing beautiful art. And I was like, I think I'm gonna start having like literal artists like do paintings for our flyers. Like the ⁓ I think the New York horse show does that. Scott Cooper: Mm-hmm. Crysta Brown: No. Bill Kaven: Yeah, yeah. Scott Cooper: literally ready to make a bid, but you know, didn't end up getting anything. And then I swore off getting a yearling. And now thanks to you and this information, I'm I might be back online in August. So we'll see. That's awesome. Crysta Brown: Anyway, one of like old school like hunter jumper shows. They always commission an artist then they like sell posters of the horse show and I'm like, you know what? I think we need to go so far in the other direction. I I'm I'm considering that route. I am. ⁓ my gosh. But wait, so didn't you just recently come back from the Euro Summit show? Okay, so that's a new show. Can you tell me a little bit about it and maybe why you guys felt it was important? Scott Cooper: Yeah, I I agree. And I've used the the AI setting in Canva recently for work thing. I didn't love it. It it was like really slow and it's kinda clunky. Like I think you can just do better work. And guys, no one's gonna judge you for like your s your spacing or whatever. We are gonna judge you for your AI flyer. I'm just gonna say that. Bill Kaven: Yes, yes. Okay. Crysta Brown: I don't love it. Bill Kaven: So ⁓ about four years ago now, had a group of competitors approach NSBA ⁓ helping to ⁓ the horse show dynamic in Europe. ⁓ they were shut down for two solid years after COVID ⁓ and were having a really hard time getting restarted with their horse shows. Crysta Brown: No. It just comes across as lazy. I think that's what I had somebody I made a post saying about like the AI is killing me. And somebody was like, Well, I'm a small business owner. And I was like, even more so than I need you to show me that you care about your business and that you want to stand out and like have individuality and like show me who your brand is and who you are and what I'm supporting through the things that you put out in the world. So pivoting. Scott Cooper: Mm-hmm. Crysta Brown: right. Scott Cooper: Mm-hmm. Bill Kaven: it's very much a hobbyist ⁓ over there. And so I think a two year hiatus just, you know, got people involved in other areas and doing other things and ⁓ it was okay for them to just kind of shelf their horse and ⁓ and of forget about showing. and and Crysta I mean you know you're you you're over in Ireland. it it it's it's it's a very much a hobbyist. Scott Cooper: Preach this sir. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. How are you and what's it like having Scott or Scott? What's it like having Chip at home? Scott Cooper: It's so great. ⁓ Crysta has gotten least one meltdown for me because I have had like my high highs and lows. And like last week was crazy. I mean, I moved him on Sunday. I went and do a crazy busy work week. I worked 52 hours over the weekend, like on campus. ⁓ y'all educators, it's June. We made it. Thank God. ⁓ my God. ⁓ it was a lot. But it was great because like the barn is literally on my way home. So even on the days I was super busy, I could stop and just groom in. ⁓ Crysta Brown: Yeah. Bill Kaven: type activity over there. It no. And so so they just asked, you know, what could they do? ⁓ what ⁓ could NSBA help them? ⁓ ⁓ we decided we presented in front of our board ⁓ a approach to the international market. ⁓ And started with us actually taking out all of our affiliate bylaws for international Crysta Brown: It's different, right? It's not a horse trainer sport. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So nice. Scott Cooper: I will say riding alone is like cute for a second and now I'm like, mm, I kinda miss my ladies. ⁓ and also I'm like struggling with how do I ride? Like I need a goal in mind. So I think I should just like pick a local show and p do that. I mean I think I'm I think I'm gonna do Ventura County Fair. In August they have a ranch show day. And so maybe I'll just like keep them tuned up for that. But also like Crysta Brown: Yeah. Bill Kaven: from the rule book and we actually stripped our rule book of those bylaws. And the reason for that was that if we were going to a concerted effort to help grow the Western sport of of showing over in Europe, then we were gonna have control of it as association. And we weren't going to rely on affiliates to do it for us. And so so we ⁓ Crysta Brown: Really? That'd be fun. Scott Cooper: He's fifteen, even though I'm not gonna take him to the majors anymore, like he's still in his prime. So that's one aspect I'm kind of struggling with is just like what to do when I ride, and also like just missing my barn a little bit. But I love, love having him close and love that like it can be quick. Like I literally sometimes I'm at the barn for like forty minutes, and that's fine because I didn't drive two and a half hours to get there and back. So like I think of yesterday, I I would have Crysta Brown: Okay. Bill Kaven: started to work different groups. ⁓ Eurosummit, the the ⁓ Netherlands Quarter Horse Association, was very active in in trying to to assist us in effort. ⁓ And ⁓ they NSBA all breed classes to their format, which allowed the Paints and Appaloosas to show up and compete at their show in conjunction with the Quarter Horse Circuit. Crysta Brown: Yeah. Yeah. Scott Cooper: never ever ever ridden on a day. I'm in the office. Ever. Like that just can't happen. Yesterday I went to the barn after work. I rode for a a little bit and technically they're closed on Mondays, but the barn owner knows like I'm not gonna bother her. So I went in there and I was home and then I got the dogs out to the beach. Like it was a very like California cowboy evening. And I did it all after work. So like that part's super nice. And Chip seems super happy Crysta Brown: Okay. Wow. Yeah. Bill Kaven: And so that combination allowed their show to really grow. And our intent was to host a NSBA European Championship event, which we did just hold this past end of April, first of May, in conjunction with the Euro Summit. So that was our intent was to have a ⁓ capstone event that the European exhibitors could go to. Scott Cooper: They all love him there. They think he's so cute and sweet and he's chill. And the guys, the goats. ⁓ my god, I'm obsessed with the goats. There's two goats. They just c they're they're like just the sweetest little puppy dogs and they like fall around. Yesterday they were like playing around the arena when Chip and I are riding around. Like I'm obsessed. Crysta Brown: Wow. Well, that's awesome. I'm glad. Scott Cooper: Yeah. So it's going well. It's going well. I I will have my like meltdown moments, but overall it's going well and we need to get to the beach soon. I'm hoping maybe this weekend. Bill Kaven: and achieve an NSBA European title. we also offer European year end awards over there as well. And so we track the points differently. Yeah, we track the points separately that they achieve over in Europe. And it doesn't one of the things that we heard from the European exhibitors was they wanted an association that was borderless, ⁓ that Crysta Brown: Yeah. I mean it's hard. Like it it's it is a transition and yeah, like the social aspect, like I do feel like you'll probably start getting connected to some of the people at the barn though. That's been my experience at least. Like sometimes being in a boarding facility actually like helps me be social because there are a lot of people around and like, Hey, who are you? Well who's your horse? How long have you been here? Like it's kind of an easy social environment, but Yeah, I just became aware of that. Yeah. Bill Kaven: confined to being just in the country. And what that meant was that they could show in in Great Britain, they could show in Ireland, they could show in the Netherlands, they could show in Norway, they could show in Sweden, and wherever they showed, whatever country they participate in, their points would go towards a lead a a leading standing. You know, and so it wasn't restricted to just, well I I am the ⁓ high point amateur horsemanship rider Crysta Brown: Yeah, I'm sure it's nice like when you all go to the bar and you all go do trail and then you're sitting around talking. It's a just a it's a different vibe completely. Scott Cooper: Yeah. It's totally different vibe. But you know, I'm gonna try to make friends. ⁓ it's all hunter jumpers, so I'm definitely like the odd person out. But I lost I know. I but I I think I wanna replace my English stuff and maybe, you know, dabble a little bit more in that. I mean, there's jump setup, y'all. Chip, start start leaping over those things. So but I do need to replace my boots and my breeches cause they were in the fire. ⁓ take your shot. Crysta Brown: Popular. right. Yeah. Bill Kaven: in Sweden. It's not just Sweden. It's the entire European Union. And you know, like we had, I think, fourteen or fifteen different countries represented in our high point winners this year. so it dev definitely achieved the goal that we were looking for, that you could compete in your own country and achieve a high point ⁓ award. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Scott Cooper: Just mention it. It's been a while, y'all. ⁓ should I mention my ski accent where we're at? Like what else do we need to cover? Yeah. Crysta Brown: Yeah. It's been a while. Yeah. Wow. ⁓ my gosh. No, that's fun. I definitely I hope there's some hunter hack in your future. I I just think, like I said, let's just novice you out of every single class available. And you have goats. Scott, start practicing the goat tying. Scott Cooper: Yeah. Right. Exactly. Crysta Brown: So it looked like it was really successful, at least from what I saw online. And people just seemed so excited about it and excited to be there. And am I wrong in thinking that I saw a trophy specifically made for that event? Scott Cooper: I would never tie those goats. They're little angels. I could never. ⁓ no, they're too cute. All right, guys. We are super excited today for our guest. We have ⁓ Mr. Bill Caven from NSBA. He's ⁓ in charge of the yearling sale and also judges. ⁓ really excited to pick his brain. As you guys know, ⁓ NSBA world show is in August, so we'd love to hear his thoughts about that. But wow, we're excited to welcome him on today. Crysta Brown: They don't care. Yeah. Bill Kaven: ⁓ so the trophy for the event was actually our standard NSBA bronze. The trophies that you saw were the year end trophies, the chalice. It was a big cup. Those were the year end trophies that they were sporting around and showing ⁓ off was those year end trophies. And and so so that trophy is very unique. Now that trophy is also given out in the States. ⁓ Crysta Brown: ⁓ okay, okay. ⁓ okay, okay. Let's jump into it. Okay. Bill Kaven: To our year-end winners in the States. ⁓ but that was very unique to them over there, so it's very ⁓ coveted ⁓ over there for sure. but trophy we gave out in the in the European Championship classes was our standard bronze trophy, whether it was the Hunt Seat trophy or the Western Horse trophy. but they also received a buckle and then a a first place medallion as well. and then we also gave ⁓ Crysta Brown: Gotcha. Yeah. Bill Kaven: second and third place crystal trophies with their medallion as well. Yeah, so it was a you know, ⁓ it was a great event. We placed down to eight. ⁓ it it it was extremely well attended to give you an idea of the growth of that show from last year to this year. ⁓ last year they sold slightly over two hundred stalls. This year it was I think close to three hundred and fifteen stalls that they sold. Crysta Brown: Cool. Wow. Bill Kaven: And entries went from just about three thousand to over four thousand this year. You know, overall ⁓ entries that's the core horse entries, the paint entries, the NSBA entries, ⁓ the European Championship entries. So total number of entries for all all associated events for the European ⁓ for the Euro Summit was over four thousand this year. Scott Cooper: Wow. Crysta Brown: Wow. Right. Well, and I think we all kind of, at least my first introduction to NSBA was the NSBA trophy, right? That bronze. ⁓ It's just like classic, it's iconic. And I think for a lot of exhibitors, it becomes this goal. It's like, I need to earn my first NSBA trophy and it like becomes a part of the things that we work towards. I think NSBA is doing something so unique and... Bill Kaven: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Scott Cooper: Yes. Mm-hmm. Bill Kaven: Absolutely. Crysta Brown: successful in their awards program. Is that intentional? Did it happen by accident? Like what's kind of the thought process? Bill Kaven: No, that the ⁓ NSBA trophy program started way back in ninety three. y you know the trainers auction that we hold? Originally the trainers auction was to fund the trophy program. So trainers would donate their month of service ⁓ to the trainers auction and proceeds from that would fund the trophy program ⁓ back in the day. Crysta Brown: What? ⁓ okay. Okay. Bill Kaven: That program now goes to the crisis fund for the trainer auction. so it's it's it's different than it was originally started from, but yeah, that's how we funded the trophy program when it originally started way back in ninety-three. it was intentional. It was to ⁓ award ⁓ something unique to exhibitors. ⁓ the way that the trophy program works is a bronze trophy. Crysta Brown: Gotcha. Mm-hmm. Bill Kaven: is any class with $2,000 or more in added money. We have a pewter trophy that's for ⁓ $1,000 to $1,999. And then we offer a plaque for any classes that have ⁓ five hundred dollars added to nine hundred and ninety-nine dollars added so they also can get a plaque. Those are provided to show management as long as they provide that guaranteed added money at no cost to show management. So as long as they are going to offer that yep, the trophies are at no cost to show management. As long as they're going to add that added money in the class, then they receive that trophy at no cost to them. when you see those trophies being handed out at at the various events, ⁓ it it's it's ⁓ promotional ⁓ ⁓ and ⁓ to that event in in giving them that trophy. Crysta Brown: Really? Wow. Scott Cooper: We we had this discussion last year. ⁓ I'm on the APA World Show Advisory Committee and we had this discussion last year about awards and the fact that actually the most iconic thing most riders hold up when they win a world championship is their NSBA trophy. Like they're not holding up their World Show buckle, their APA World Show Buckle, they're holding up their NSBA and they're and like everyone in the community's like how do we like how do you overshadow that or like how do you compete with that? Right. How do you mimic that? Crysta Brown: How do you mimic that success? Because it's ⁓ iconic. It's, yeah. Bill Kaven: Yeah. Well I think the the the the thing that's important there is the collaboration between associations. ⁓ it's celebrating our sport. Okay. So where it's attained, where that trophy is won, isn't to me as important as the collaboration it took to get it. And and whether it's the AQHA world show with the N S B A trophy, or whether it's the the APHA world show or the Pinto World Show or the Buckskin you know, ⁓ or or a faturity like the Back to Barian. You know, ⁓ it's a collaboration ⁓ to to get to that point. ⁓ I think the more that we work together and that's one of the things I really am enjoying about the the whole international campaign is it's a lot of collaboration amongst the associations. There's that big show seminar that's now being a collaborative effort that is being produced annually. ⁓ this past year or this year it was in Prague. Next year it's gonna be in Spain. And ⁓ you know we're we're working already on all of the, you know, the schedule and and presenters and doing all that. And it's just been a great collaboration to see the associations working together for the greater good of our sport. Crysta Brown: I do think that's something interesting and unique to NSBA. Like you guys really are a collaborator with our other associations. You don't exist in a bubble kind of trying to do your own thing. ⁓ And it makes me kind of wonder. I had to do some research on my own. Like a few years ago, I feel like I started to understand what NSBA's goal purpose is because I just knew it as a trophy. so, you know, it seems very obvious. AQHA is about promoting the quarter horse, Paint Horse is about promoting the paint horse, but like what is NSBA's goal and mission? Bill Kaven: Our mission is to grow the horse show community. In whatever way that takes us. So whether that's through educational events, whether that's through ⁓ sponsoring the trophies for the event. You know, whatever it is that can help grow the entire horse show community. That's NSBA's mission. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. That's beautiful. It really is. Scott Cooper: I know, I I I love that. I mean, I feel like NESBA is doing the work that like I would want to do to set out and like help build the horse show industry. So thank you for taking that off my plate. That's that's super helpful to me. I I wanna ⁓ go ahead. Bill Kaven: Yeah. I think that's the luxury we have being an all breed association is that we can assist in ways that the breed associations are are limited. You know, ⁓ that collaboration between ⁓ us an all breed in conjunction with whatever breed Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Scott Cooper: Mm-hmm. Bill Kaven: that that wants to work with us, ⁓ we feel like it benefits both. That's what we're looking for. Is is how it does it benefit both associations? Scott Cooper: So kind of riffing off that a little bit, talking about it being an all breed association, I saw a few years N S B A was dipping their toes into the hunter jumper world. Can you give me an update on that? Like what do you see? Are we are do we have warm bloods registered with N S B A? Bill Kaven: Absolutely we do. We have warm bloods registered. We have horses with with ⁓ no pedigree or papers of any sort. ⁓ SBA will register unregistered horses ⁓ as long as they're microchipped and age verified. that did come from, to your point, Scott, the hunter jumper campaign that we did for a couple of years in conjunction with ⁓ World Equestrian Center down in O'Cala. Scott Cooper: Mm-hmm. Crysta Brown: Give it a minute. Bill Kaven: They approached us at the time they were getting ready to launch their series. they were denied USEF approval at that time, and they did not want to hold an event of that magnitude without a governing body. And so they approached us ⁓ to to that governing body. ⁓ you can look in our rule book and you can see that there's a whole section dedicated to hunter jumper rules. specifically to govern those events. it was a a great relationship that we had with World Equestrian Center. We still work with World Equestrian Center on their other events as well. ⁓ But did ⁓ work out their differences with USEF and now those events are USEF approved. we are continuing to try to a way to service the hunter jumper community ⁓ because we do feel like there is a group of competitors in that world that ⁓ can provide a service to that gives them that national governing body without maybe as many strings. And the reason I say the strings is because, you know, like if you're in the United States Hunter Jumper Association, you have to be part of US E F as well. So it kind of doubles up the expense ⁓ to those competitors ⁓ to compete. ⁓ Crysta Brown: Sure. Great. Bill Kaven: we are a streamlined compared to that. So so maybe we can, you know, offer something to the hunter jumper community that's a little bit more affordable. ⁓ gonna like I said, we're continuing to look at ways of kind of assisting ⁓ groups that would find working with us being beneficial for them. Scott Cooper: Mm-hmm. That's awesome. Crysta Brown: So interesting. Scott and I were kind of talking before you jumped on here about like, NSBA's really stood out to both of us, I think, recently in just like, it feels like NSBA is ahead of the curve and like, you guys are forward thinking in so many ways. Like, know, Scott and I talk a lot about how I wonder if our sport would find success if we did like make certain events more of a spectator sport, you know, going back to having evening performances kind of a thing. but then you guys have the cinch invitational, like you're ahead of us, you know? And even what you guys do with like the Tomorrow's Horseman program, like there's so much that you guys seem to be able to diagnose some of the struggles we're maybe seeing in the industry and come up with a response maybe before the rest of us even click onto it being an issue. Like, why do you think that is? Like, what are you guys doing so well? Bill Kaven: Well I think the the idea of our board being a very diverse board coming from different at aspects of the industry, we we get to hear what the concerns are from all the different avenues. And and so I think we get to evaluate those and try to come up with with answers to them because of our diverse board. like I said, they're coming from from different breed associations, they're coming from different disciplines. ⁓ and so I I think that they're desire is to see the things that they see that are problems to to s to try to see a solution to those problems and they bring those two to us in the board meetings and and so maybe that's why it it may appear like we're maybe a step ahead is because ⁓ that diverse board getting to hear these these ⁓ issues firsthand. Crysta Brown: That's really interesting. Scott Cooper: Yeah, I I you guys just seem to be solving a lot of the problems that our industry talks about and so it's really nice to hear. I I would love to hear actually speaking of the horsemanship invitational, like where did the idea come from and where do you see it going? Bill Kaven: the idea for the Cinch Horsemanship Challenge was a challenge from Cinch. They wanted something that was ⁓ unique. wanted some ⁓ unique event that they could put their brand behind that was of a showcase event ⁓ at our world show. ⁓ And ⁓ you they wanted to put that sponsorship money, that's where that pay outcomes from is directly from the synth sponsorship. And so ⁓ we were powwowing in our world show meeting and throwing out ideas and throwing out ideas. And you know that's one of the strengths too is we have so many people on staff that are still ⁓ in the horse industry. ⁓ one of them was hey you know I went to this horse show and they did this really cool kind of blind horsemanship challenge. ⁓ Crysta Brown: Hmm. Bill Kaven: You know, they they didn't get much time to pr to look at the pattern and they just had to write it from memory as fast as possible and and that was kind of fun. And so through talking about that it just kind of evolved into inviting ⁓ the ten finishers from all the world shows to the event. That's that's the how the invitation comes out. So ⁓ and in all different levels, whether it's the amateur, the select, ⁓ the the youth fourteen through eighteen, youth thirteen another novice. It didn't matter ⁓ what top ten you achieved, you were given that invitation. And then they're there they come. ⁓ the other interesting thing is it it's no cost to them to enter the event. Scott Cooper: ⁓ sweet. Crysta Brown: That's cool. That's really special. Bill Kaven: They they get a free entry. The only time they're charged an entry is if they do a late entry just prior to the event. But if they'll do a pre entry, it's free ⁓ to them. Now obviously they have to have the horse there and and and get a stall, but but the actual entry fee is is free to them. and so that was also something ⁓ that that Cinch wanted to sponsor in that way was that it would not be ⁓ cost prohibitive. Crysta Brown: Right. That's cool. Scott Cooper: ⁓ and I would imagine that if they're coming there for that, then like ⁓ know, I would be like, Well, I'm here, I might as well enter all these other classes that I can do too. So it just boosts your entries. Crysta Brown: Win-win. Bill Kaven: That's definitely our hope. That's our hope. Crysta Brown: Well, I think something that's really successful about it from everyone I've known who's experienced it in person, it just seems really fun. Like you guys really have made it feel special, feel fun, like there's music, like it really feels like something to come and watch, which I just, I'm really impressed. I think it's a really, really cool idea. Bill Kaven: Yeah. And and we would love to do more of those events. but we we jam so much horse show into ten days. ⁓ it's ⁓ know, it's a lot of horse show in ten days and and you know, going back to the sale, we try to purposely stop the show pens ⁓ from from continuing on ⁓ while the sale's going on. So that's another night that we kind of, you know, try to conclude the the show ⁓ arenas Crysta Brown: So. ⁓ yeah. Bill Kaven: in a timely manner that everybody can come and attend the sale. ⁓ and we try to do the same even on preview night. ⁓ it sometimes it spills over on preview night, but the sale starting at five o'clock and trying to have all the show arenas done by five, that's a task. It's a real task to get that accomplished. So yeah. event Crysta Brown: Right. Wow. Scott Cooper: But it really seems like it is like an event. Yeah. Bill Kaven: Yeah. And it was meant to be. And and and you know, the the Alan Mitchell's who was ⁓ our one of our past presidents and that was his project as president was to get this yearling sale launched, that was what was important to him is that it was an event. And he's the one that came up with the sale graduate program too. Scott Cooper: Mm-hmm. Crysta Brown: Right. Right. Bill Kaven: Which was a brilliant idea. Crysta Brown: That's all really cool. So if I could pivot you just a little bit, can you talk to us a little bit about judging, being a judge? One of the main things I'm curious about is I've seen the complaints online. I've heard it from some folks that maybe we don't have enough judges. Do you feel that that's true? Bill Kaven: well, we definitely have a dwindling number of judges because our active judges, most of our active judges ⁓ are and can say this because I'm in that same group now, are are approaching their senior years. You know, and ⁓ that should be a concern to ⁓ to any out there, Crysta Brown: Okay. Mm-hmm. Bill Kaven: and encourage them to want to get their judges card. if we're having ⁓ more people than more people coming on, then that's a dwindling list. And and we don't we don't want to see that. it would be nice if it was actually more applicants than retirees, ⁓ but traditionally year to year, it's more retirees than applicants. Crysta Brown: Right. Mm-hmm. Bill Kaven: So so we do have a a a little bit of a issue in the industry of professionals to ⁓ attain their their judging credentials. Scott Cooper: Well, I was just curious like what the process is for getting your N S B a judge's card. Like do you already need to be a quarter horse judge or paint judge? Bill Kaven: No. No, you do not have to be. You need to be twenty five years of age. You need to be a a member the the the previous year and the current year you're applying. know one of the things and we were just talking about this in tomorrow's horsemen because that was the topic for tomorrow's horsemen was you know, you know, how do you become a judge? What's the benefits of being a judge? ⁓ and ⁓ And it's not the the the cold hot dog and the warm Coca-Cola. You know, the the benefits are giving back to the industry. Right. that was why I became a judge. ⁓ because there were judges who went out in that arena, gave their honest opinion about the horses that they were ⁓ viewing that day and decided our horses were the best. Not knowing who we were, where we came from. Scott Cooper: I like you. Bill Kaven: n you know, whether that was the first good horse I've ever had or the tenth one, they just did their job. And and so that really the fact that that I was able to be an unknown person from Colorado coming into the industry that I did not grow up in, did not have any background in ⁓ first generation horsemen and actually achieving ⁓ a high status in the industry Because of judges that were willing to go out there and do their job ethically and honestly. And ⁓ so I still believe that exists and I know that there's a lot of talk out there that it does not, but I do believe it does exist. ⁓ because there's always people elevating up the ladder, and if they weren't, then then then the political argument would be true if it was always the same people and no one ever elevated. Crysta Brown: Yeah. Yeah. Bill Kaven: You have to try to achieve the excellent performance. That's your goal as a competitor, achieve that excellent performance. The judge then needs to reward that excellent performance regardless of who presented it. Crysta Brown: Well, OK, so as somebody who's potentially interested in judging, I'm somebody who's I'm like, yeah, maybe that's something I'd like to add to my resume. Something I struggle with is, A, it's a lot of studying, because there are some classes I'm super familiar with, and there's other classes that I'm not so familiar with. And so there's going to be some studying required. So I know that there's this time requirement. But personally, I also get very intimidated by the responsibility of judging. And I know what it feels like to be the exhibitor and feel like you weren't rewarded when you should have been rewarded. I also know what it's like to be the exhibitor and go, didn't deserve that one. And I feel like it's something you want to do such an excellent job at. And I wonder if you feel this way, but sometimes when I see criticism of judges online, the more I've gotten to know judges, Bill Kaven: Mm-hmm. Scott Cooper: Right. Bill Kaven: Right. Right. Crysta Brown: and I understand what that job is, I feel like it can be really unfair. Like we are expecting our judges to see every single thing in the arena at all times. And like, we're expecting them to be perfect. Like, is that fair to say? Bill Kaven: It's a i to your point, it's a heavy weight, a heavy burden. and and I don't know any judge that does takes it lightly. You know, we all take it very seriously. no different than the competitors wanting to go out there and be their very best, so do our judges. and yet we're all human. sometimes the preparation ⁓ Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Bill Kaven: that you had for your performance didn't go exactly as planned either. And sometimes you glance down even though your hat brim is looking forward and it looks like you missed something, but you weren't looking in that direction anyway. So yeah, you did miss something, or you or it looks like you ignored something when y in actuality you didn't. You missed it. You know? And ⁓ Crysta Brown: right. Bill Kaven: do things happen in judging sometimes that that you know the judges go back and feel bad about? I know I did personally. you know, you you're like, ⁓ maybe I was a little too hard on that maneuver or whatever. ⁓ that's part the That's part of learning. You know, it's ⁓ it's like A doctor, they call it practicing medicine, right? So you know, you you want to feel like each time you go out to judge, you're doing a better job than you did before, no different than the competitors themselves. ⁓ so it is a learned skill, and it does take you exercising that muscle judging to get proficient at it and be good at it. But I don't think it's something that should shy a person away from doing it. I really do feel like it it's a way of giving back to the industry that helped build your career. Crysta Brown: I like that. I've never thought of it that way. Scott Cooper: like that. Well, and like I I love that you point out that you're first generation horse person too, because that's both of us as well and we're trying to do everything we can to help elevate this industry. So Crysta, go get your judges card. Crysta Brown: Guys, give me a minute. I have to study. Scott Cooper: Right. You you have so much time in fine. Bill Kaven: Yeah. Well and you you asked did you have to have experience and you don't with NSBA? You don't have to have another card. one of the things and we were talking about this in Tomorrow's Horseman is the judges committee to feel like ⁓ might be your first card that you go for. You know? ⁓ and so with knowing that ⁓ It doesn't take this extensive resume of judging to get approved to come test. ⁓ obviously the more resume of judging you have, the better. But but if you're new to that concept and it's something you want to learn about and and expand yourself about, we're we're willing to look at that ⁓ evaluate that in as in the judges committee. Crysta Brown: Okay. Bill Kaven: And if if it looks like you're a committed professional and you've been doing this for for a while and and you're trying to expand yourself as an individual, we're gonna give you your shot, you know? ⁓ then it's up to you to study. ⁓ 'cause no different than when I got my quarter horse card, I didn't know anything about the cattle classes. Zero. And I had to learn all those to get my quarter horse card. Crysta Brown: That's really interesting, like... Scott Cooper: Yeah. Crysta Brown: Right, yeah. I think that's ⁓ of the hardest parts. So for me, NSBA, obviously, your guys's international card works in really interesting way, where if you have your, I believe it's quarter horse or paint horse card, you can automatically get your NSBA international card. So for me, what it's going to look like most likely is I'm going to go ⁓ my quarter horse international card because I can do that testing online. So that makes it a lot more affordable for me. But. Though I don't have to learn cattle classes, for me it's the reining and the halter where I get a little nervy. Both of those classes I find challenging. Bill Kaven: Yep. Well you're you're lucky ⁓ we don't have reigning, so so for NSBA you don't have to worry about that. ⁓ yep. And then the the halter, ⁓ we have the performance halter mostly is what we see approved with with NSBA. and there again, you know, people's ⁓ is probably gonna dictate their their ranking in that class. Crysta Brown: Hot dog. Mm-hmm. Bill Kaven: And so, you know, you're gonna see a a diversity a lot of times in the placing of performance halter classes. and it I think it really does have to do a little bit with that particular judge's background ⁓ ⁓ and kind of what they're what they wanna see ⁓ a performance halter horse. So I wouldn't be too intimidated by that is my point. Scott Cooper: Yeah, Crysta, you need to go for it. Bill Kaven: Yeah. And if you if you get an opportunity, ⁓ were you on the ⁓ the horse eye queue ⁓ with with ⁓ Kelly Wainscott? Crysta Brown: Okay, maybe this year. Scott Cooper: Yeah. Crysta Brown: I love horse IQ. I'm all over it. Yeah. Bill Kaven: If you should have a Yeah, if if that's recorded if that ⁓ seminar was recorded, you need to watch that seminar. She does an excellent, excellent job of explaining halter. Excellent. Crysta Brown: Okay, will do. I think Scott has to jump on a meeting here, Scotty. Bill Kaven: Yep. Sorry, Scott. Scott Cooper: Yeah. I'm gonna let you guys No, no worries. You guys I'm gonna go to real life, unfortunately, but you guys keep this conversation going. And Bill, again, thank you so much for coming. Crysta Brown: you Yeah. Enjoy your real job. I've got us. OK, now the real stuff, just professional and director judges here. Just kidding. So ⁓ no, that's really interesting to me. It's a hard thing because it is intimidating. think especially, I'm sure other young professionals listening to this can understand. It can be easy to of count yourself out or feel like nobody wants my opinion. Bill Kaven: You bet, Scott. Thanks for asking me. Scott Cooper: Okay. Bill Kaven: Okay. Okay. Yeah, sure. Crysta Brown: Actually, something I would love to hear you speak to a little bit is subjectivity in judging, right? Like you just said, like we all have diverse backgrounds. So like the way that my eye might pull in the performance halter might be different than somebody else's eye. But there are people that argue that there should be no subjectivity in judging. Like it should be, this is the standard and it doesn't look like this. the more I've experimented with kind of judging, it's like, well, in the equitation, I think as a trainer, your eye can often watch your horse and your horse's behavior. But I think the more you pay attention to the judging of equitation, you start falling back to that rider more and you watch that heel and you watch that connection and all of those pieces. So how do we stay true to our rulebook when we're training judges while also allowing for their backgrounds to come into play? And how, as an exhibitor, can I Bill Kaven: Mm-hmm. Crysta Brown: learn from the fact that maybe I'm third place under one judge, first under another, or even a bigger spread than that. Bill Kaven: Mm. Well, as far as the the diversity or the disparity in judging, you're in a high quality group of horses, ⁓ ⁓ happen for sure. And I prefer it to happen, personally. Because ⁓ we all saw the world the same way, it would be a little dull. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. Bill Kaven: And as long as they're judging according to the standards of the rule book and they're abiding by the rules, then that difference of opinion I applaud. Okay? I tell them all the time at the world show when you make your decisions based in this rule book, I can stand behind every decision you make. When you deviate from the rule book, Crysta Brown: Okay. Bill Kaven: That's when we have a hard time backing you up. so as long ⁓ ⁓ judge has a reason for scoring that horse that way, ranking that horse that way, and it falls within the rule book, we got their back. You know, I think where people want to complain is when they think a horse ⁓ Crysta Brown: Hmm. Gotcha. Bill Kaven: rewarded beyond its its quality. So potentially maybe that horse has been elevated into a group it doesn't belong in. Because that's one of the things we talk about in judging is grouping your horses correctly. You want that group of horses that are above average in performance and to be all together. You want those horses that are average in performance to be all together. And you want those horses Crysta Brown: Okay. Mm. Right. Bill Kaven: That are below average altogether. So that is the first and foremost important thing of judging is to get your groups correctly. you've filtered your classes into groups, ⁓ it's obviously easier in the scored classes because you can just, you know, let the ⁓ kind of group your horses. So yeah, so when you're when you're judging, I mean it's easy to have a horse, ⁓ in the trail. Crysta Brown: Okay. Right, right. Bill Kaven: score a one and a half on this maneuver and then a minus half on the next maneuver. You know, that's that's a that's a very plausible ⁓ because they were excellent in one doesn't mean they're gonna be an excellent in all. And so that score just sort of plays out and tells a story ⁓ of what that judge saw on that particular performance. And and think where you know people Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Bill Kaven: They want that feedback all the time in all classes and it just may not be as possible in some classes to give that feedback. because if you're a if you're on a rail class and you're judging twenty head of horses, you're as a judge, you're doing a lot of mental gymnastics ⁓ to ⁓ those and it might be a class that you're required to rank all twenty. Right? It it may have Crysta Brown: We are. bright. Bill Kaven: ⁓ certain layers to the class where the judge is told as they walk in the pen, you need to rank all twenty horses and and give that to your steward. Okay. All right. So the thing that you don't want to do as a judge is you don't want to weaken your conviction on any horse where it belongs, whether it's third or whether it's seventeenth. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Okay. That's a big job. Bill Kaven: It's seventeenth because it's seventeenth. You know, it it it's not like you, you know, ranked your top ten and then you're like, okay, well I'll just start writing down numbers. That's not what you were paid for. You were paid to put every horse in every slot according to your opinion. That's not easy to do. That is not easy to do. Crysta Brown: Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. No, and you think of, you know, we often have concerns about the length of a horse show. And I think a lot of judges are keeping that in mind, trying to keep the day reasonable. And yet you want to give, I empathize with the position of our judges and probably because I'm starting to have more conversations about judges and with, know, within that world. But it seems really challenging me to sit there and give the most accurate report of a horse's performance in a rail class while you're also watching the performance of, you know, 15 other horses. Like, that's a lot. And it's maybe three minutes to five minutes for the class. That's a tall order. Bill Kaven: Yeah, so the the uniqueness of judging Western pleasure is that you're judging each horse against the standard of excellence and each horse against each other. So you're doing two things at once. You're trying to find out is this horse correct? Is this horse above average? Is this horse below average? Then you have to decide how it ranks against its competitors. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Bill Kaven: So let's say ⁓ this is a a ⁓ a feasible thing. Let's say a class is and I'm gonna use scores to to make it easier. Let's say the entire class is horses that are from seventy one to sixty nine and you have twelve of them. They all score within that range. Now you have to rank ⁓ from first to twelve. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right, right. Bill Kaven: That's a lot of ties, right? There's a lot of ties in that. Crysta Brown: which then it starts to make sense why you might hear, you know, such different placings where I think as an exhibitor, I'm sure you can understand, like it can feel frustrating when you come out of even like my world, I rarely touch the pleasure, but like the ranch rail, sometimes I'm like first and sixth and I'm like, what happened? ⁓ And it's interesting to me. I love the way you describe that. Like if the pack is all right near each other, you're going to see a lot of that. discrepancy and a lot of where it does come down to splitting hairs. In your mind, like whether it's you're talking to someone about how to judge a class, let's use the pleasure as an example because it can be kind of a hot topic. ⁓ Is there like ⁓ list of importance ⁓ you kind of teach people to go down? Like I know obviously correct is most important, but then after that, ⁓ that then up to your judges? own perspective, what becomes the most important thing or are you guys kind of training people to look for legs, top line, like how does that work? Bill Kaven: Well we actually ⁓ there's there's a hierarchy of judging that we follow and it's correctness, quality, degree of difficulty. So correctness first and foremost has to be obtained. You know, ⁓ correctness eclipses degree of difficulty. ⁓ a if a trainer is pursuing degree of difficulty that erodes correctness ⁓ Crysta Brown: Okay. Mm-hmm. Bill Kaven: that's that's just reducing their performance exponentially. So so in their pursuit of being Crysta Brown: Right, right. Now, give me an example of that. Bill Kaven: a two beat jog going into a four beat jog You know, they're trying to pursue this ⁓ rhythmic because they think that slow rhythmic trot is what's going to beat their competitor. So that's pursuit of degree of difficulty. When they sacrifice correctness to get that slower rhythm and the horse is no longer two beat, Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Bill Kaven: now they now they've created their own problem. So Crysta Brown: Yes, thank you so much for speaking to that. Yes. Bill Kaven: Yeah, so they need to maintain that level of correctness in their performance and if that particular horse needs to be a little more forward to maintain correct, then that's where it needs to be. You know, show the horse you brought, not the one you wish you brought. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Yeah, absolutely. We talked about that in our podcast with Judge Don Beard just recently, and he was saying the exact same thing. It's like you kind of, he was saying it kind of hurts him sometimes when he's judging, when you see that person just ask for that hair too much and it's like, ⁓ you crossed into the bad box. Like I wish you just stayed a hair less and I could have rewarded you. Bill Kaven: You know. And that's so true. I mean, the thing that I don't think competitors realize is we want to see good performances. Challenge us to judge you. Don't don't make our job easy by doing things that penalize you immediately. You know, we want to be challenged to try to find the best horse in that group. And and we want to applaud your excellence. Crysta Brown: right. Mm-hmm. Bill Kaven: You know, we we wanna do that. We wanna elevate you to the top of our card because that's exactly what you showed us was an excellent performance. So, you know, don't think that we're out there looking for the negative. We're not. ⁓ my ⁓ my professor in college that that in my horse evaluation class, one of his biggest things was always speak about the positive first. And then critique. That was one of his biggest things was that always find the positive in a horse and then you can critique it. And he said, I don't care what it is. You know, it might be that it keeps its ears forward, it might be that it's got a long tail. I don't care what it is, but find something positive to talk about about that horse, and then you can go into a critique of it. Crysta Brown: Absolutely. I think that's encouraging to a lot of exhibitors though, because certainly, you know, my first source shows I was like 15, 16. And the first time you trot up to that judge in showmanship, it's like, oh my gosh. It's really intimidating. And I think to not even just have more empathy for the other side, but just to kind of humanize the other side a little bit, I think is really helpful to understand how to even show successfully to a judge. And... at least for myself, like the horse trainer in me wants to say, you when we're talking about like show the horse that you have, not the horse you wish you have, right? Like it's kind of this concept of don't over show, but at the same time, I also want to put out in the world, like that doesn't mean show soft because on the other end, there's times where your horse is capable of more and you're not getting rewarded because of it. And I do think there's a phase, a lot of exhibitors hit when they're kind of learning. how to get out of that novice, you know, zero plus half phase. And they're trying to get into that like higher side of the score sheet. When you go big or go home, sometimes you go home, right? You know, as a ranch exhibitor, happens all the time. Sometimes I go up there and I'm like, I'm gonna go for it in this lope to extended trot transition. And I hit the walk button and I'm like, well, whoopsies, my bad. But I do think there's, don't go to the horse show and try to... do something that you've never done at home. If you know your horse shows a simple change really correct, I think that can be beautifully done and even score sometimes over flying change that's in the negative. ⁓ Bill Kaven: Right. I was doing a clinic up in Canada recently and ⁓ we had a very diverse group of people. ⁓ you know, some were ranch riders, some were horsemanship, some were equitation. It was a very diverse group of people. So the horsemanshippers would come in and immediately they'd be warming up two handed and all this and I I'm like, So how old's your horse? They're like eight, nine, whatever. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Bill Kaven: I'm like, so it's required that you show this horse one-handed in a bridle, correct? What? Sure is. I said, so how often do you practice that? ⁓ not too much. And I was like, well, if you're not practicing one-handed at least eighty percent of your workout, you're not going to perform it effortlessly when the chips are on the table. Crysta Brown: of right. Right, right. Bill Kaven: You know, you only perfect what you practice. Crysta Brown: Absolutely. I love that. I think that is a beautiful place for us to wrap up. Before we leave you, do you have any last thoughts? If people are wanting to do more with NSBA, where would you like to direct them to? What programs should they be checking out? Bill Kaven: Well, they can definitely go to our website, ⁓ look at all the different programs. ⁓ one of the things that that I think is so great about NSBA is also all their foundation work that they do. ⁓ the Heroes on Horses, the Tomorrow's Horsemen, the Equestrians with Disability programs, ⁓ the the Trainer Crisis Fund. ⁓ the fact that that NSBA gives so much back to their membership is one of the reasons why I decided to work here. you know we did a study recently and 84 cents of every dollar membership dollar spent goes back to the membership and through a program of some sort. So ⁓ yeah 84 cents of every dollar goes back to the membership in one way or another. ⁓ and so it is an organization that that Crysta Brown: That's incredible. Bill Kaven: sticks to its mission of trying to grow the horse show community and and be inclusive for everybody. You know, I really do feel like in my career, ⁓ having the limited division back when that's all there was was the open and the limited ⁓ one of the reasons that it allowed us to kind of excel as exhibitors because it gave us a peer group that we could compete with. And so that's all part of that inclusivity, right? and so I think, you know, the fact that there's a place for everybody at NSBA to compete, regardless. ⁓ I think that's one of the the key components and one of the the true successes of the organization is that they have stayed very true to that being inclusive. Crysta Brown: Right. Bill Kaven: and that they're trying to grow the horseshoe community in any capacity they can. So yeah, go to the website, research everything. Another one of our great programs is our youth smart points, ⁓ means that they get to get point they get money for each point they earn. One of the things a lot of people don't know about smart points ⁓ each ⁓ that we receive in sanction fees from the show in the youth classes one hundred percent of that goes to that program. NSBA benefits zero from the from the youth sanction fees. it all goes into that fund for those kids to receive checks. And we've had graduating ⁓ youth that have come out of that program and they'll receive checks, you know, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen thousand dollars that they get to use ⁓ to go towards, you know, school or Crysta Brown: ⁓ my gosh. Bill Kaven: or maybe even a vehicle so they can get to school or whatever it is. Maybe they're gonna be a tradesman and they need a welder. You know, they can purchase that welder. So ⁓ it's a great, great program. and we try to sing it from the rooftops and yet people don't realize it exists. ⁓ ⁓ so so N S B A does does so much in so many different capacities ⁓ ⁓ and that's ⁓ Crysta Brown: Yeah. Bill Kaven: That's the great part about it. And we're all breeds, so we're open to everybody. That also goes in line with that inclusivity. ⁓ you know, everybody can find a spot. Crysta Brown: I have to say, the more I learn about NSBA, the more of a fan I become. this conversation is no different. I really just, the heart of this organization feels pure to me, which is just refreshing. It's lovely. It's super exciting to see where you guys continue to grow and how you help support this sport, because this is what we all love. This is what it's about. So thank you so much for your time. Listeners, remember that you can't be all of the good that the horse show world needs, but the horse show world needs all the good that you can do until next time.