Crysta Brown: All right, we are here with Judge Don Beard. Don, I don't understand why I don't win everything. Can you speak to that? Scott Cooper: Hi, welcome back to the next episode of Horse Show Bestie. I'm your co-host, Scott Cooper. Crysta Brown: And I'm your other co-host, Crysta Brown. Hey, Scott. Don: ⁓ geez. ⁓ Well, here's the deal. You know, in the circle of judging, we see things that just go by other people. And you know, a three is absolutely amazing. What's it take to get a three? So we're talking horsemanship, equitation, or showmanship, right? ⁓ and by the way, roping too. ⁓ Scott Cooper: Crysta I have a bone to pic with you. You just stole my horse. You've stolen him. I know exactly. Although I'm like useless right now. But y'all, I'm just gonna say Chip's a good little model for your videos. Crysta Brown: What did I do? You mean my horse? My horse? He's so good. ⁓ I will say like as far as tip video goes, he was very efficient for the riding video that I did, but I have a bone to pick with you and Chip. ⁓ Scott Cooper: Wait, roping has... that thing? Don: Yeah, we're plus three, minus three, and roping as well. So, the real question is, what's the difference between anywhere from just correct up to a three or down to a negative three? And so I want to talk about the negative first because I think people don't understand that when they actually see it. Just trying to be positive about the negatives. Scott Cooper: Bring it. Crysta Brown: I tried to do a showmanship tip video with him, Regrets. Regrets. Apparently. I was like, Chip knows showmanship. I think he like won the zone in showmanship or something. Yeah. Apparently. Scott Cooper: ⁓ F that. Ugh, we hate showmanship. ⁓ man. Yeah, he has. Against his will. He hates it. We gave up showmanship in, I'm trying to think the last time we did it. Well, we did it at like a local show in 2024. I know that's the last time we did it. And it was a bomb. It was me and Joanna. She kicked my butt by a mile. I got second place. But we really gave it up at the end of 21. I think after our novice year, we were just like, we're not. Don: I literally, if you get a penalty three, penalty five, I might be a minus one, maybe even a minus two, but you hit me with something that's obviously just nasty. I'm gonna slap that 10 on there and I'm gonna take you to a minus three. Crysta Brown: Mmm. right. Scott Cooper: Why are we trying? Why are we wasting money in an amateur showmanship class? Listen, Chip is good at lot of things. Showmanship is not one of them. You want a peppy, crisp-like respondent horse for showmanship? That's not... You want a horse, you have to lunge. You have to lunge them before the show. Chip is not a lunger. Yeah. Crysta Brown: Wait, wait, give me an example. Give me an example of something that's a penalty 10 and then I get a big minus 3. Don: How about that thing that rears and stands on its hind feet and talks to this guy? Crysta Brown: Yeah. That's not what he was coming to the party with. Yeah. You need one that's like almost a little too quirky and might give you like more than you want. And Chip was like, let me tell you how this went, right? Because, okay, like filming a tip video is an interesting thing because like you're kind of pausing, setting up camera, and then you go. And like usually broke show horses are like amazing for it and a gift. Cause a lot of times I'm filming on like I would never, personally. My patterns are like near perfect as you know. Don: Yeah, you wouldn't you wouldn't believe it, but but all of a sudden there it comes. And there's that other phrase I used earlier. You've got to be kidding me. Crysta Brown: Ha Scott Cooper: Ugh. Don: And it may be it may be right in the middle of a really good run. And and just ⁓ Shep says no. And somebody says yes, and then Shep jumps straight in the air, right? Crysta Brown: Mmm. Scott Cooper: Mm. Crysta Brown: bubbles, God bless, or like a green horse, you know? And so it's like, you have to do it a couple of times to get what you're looking for out of them. Okay. So Chip, like I could get something crispy out of him, but I had to like school, school, school, school, do the thing. Do you feel like as a judge, do you get like disappointed when you're like, ⁓ that was my winning run and something just happens? Scott Cooper: Mm-hmm. Don: Absolutely, absolutely. You know, somebody like in showmanship, I mean, they're really knocking it out and they will hit the, you know, a 360 or something like that. And they start out on the swing and it goes great. And all of a sudden the back end follows them all the way around the circle. I mean, they just, they just stepped in too hard, got too far back. You know, those are those little things. Scott Cooper: and then you get half a second of crispy. I could school for an hour before going to showmanship and if you wait 40 seconds too long, it's done, it's over. By time you set up and get him set up for the judges, he's like, mm, forgot about all that you just did with me. It's awful. Crysta Brown: Yes, and then he dies on me. Hey guys, a quick word from our sponsors. Yes. It feels like when you were riding your bike as a kid and you like coast down a hill and then there's another hill and you see how far you can coast and then it's like stops moving. That's how everything felt. I was like, okay, I really wanted to do this intro. I did pull it off, but I wanted to do this intro where I like, ⁓ pivoted into the start of it. And then it was like, I have three tips for the showmanship. Anyway, I had to like, Scott Cooper: For years, Naomi Clayton of NAC Equine Services has helped paint and quarter owners, breeders, and trainers streamline the often overwhelming process of marketing and placing horses in the great new homes. She has a proven background as a paint and pinto breeder and amateur show exhibitor, as well as nearly a decade of experience as an equine sales agent. NAC Equine Services doesn't just post ads. For each listing, she also creates a detailed marketing plan, organizes photos, Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Don: And then all of a sudden the feet start moving behind him before you know it, you're sitting on. And I don't go past, honestly, I don't go past ⁓ a 10. And I think most everybody is that way now, because you could literally go penalty five, penalty five, penalty five, penalty five, penalty five. And that's just incorrect. 10 is deep enough when you see something like this. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Scott Cooper: Mm-mm. Crysta Brown: wake up, wake up, wake up, wake up, and then like do it. And the moment I had to be like, okay, is he in frame? He was like, I'm done now. Like I had to immediately go into it or I got the most half assed. And it was so funny because I was so impressed with him when I did the riding tip video. I was like, you're perfect. You've done nothing wrong. And then once it was showmanship, no siree, no. Scott Cooper: creates sale videos and manages communication so you don't get bogged down in the details. Her commitment to professionalism and finding the right home shows in the countless clients who rave about their friendly, efficient and smooth experience from first contact to the final sale or purchase. Whether you're looking to sell or find your next partner, trust a service with real industry knowledge and reviews that speak for themselves. NAC Equine Services has competitive and transparent pricing, $50 listing fee, Crysta Brown: Yeah. Scott Cooper: Yeah, I think I've gotten a penalty 10. Thank Crysta Brown: You've had a 10? Scott Cooper: I think so. I had a world show. I think my first world show. I think Chip picked up a foot in showmanship. Go, figure Yeah, he's perfect to under saddle. No, we don't do that anymore. That's like a waste of our time and money and energy. So I'm glad you learned it the hard way. Are you having more fun riding him? you like understanding him or is it still like, ⁓ this is very much Scott's horse? Crysta Brown: ⁓ Don: Well, yeah, and moved it, you know, moved it to a different location twice is a five and a five. And then, you know, if it done at the third time, somebody probably just changed that to a 10. You know, it's just kind of a little bailout on the penalties for everybody. Crysta Brown: So that's, yeah. Well. Scott Cooper: Mm. Yeah. Crysta Brown: I'm going to tell you today, I felt like I didn't really overthink anything. And he just was like, yes, Simpatico got you. Like, I don't know. Like today, I had a lot more gel simplicity. But I also like, I wasn't trying to get anything in particular out of him. I just was like, what if we jogged? What if we loped? And he was like, yep, you got it. He was just, um. Scott Cooper: signed contract and 5 % commission. Find her on Facebook under the NAC Equine or check out her website at nac-equine-services.com. Crysta Brown: So let me go back. mean, obviously I still don't understand why I don't win everything. I think they should just give it to me. But speaking to the scorecard like you are, right? Okay. Scott Cooper: Mm-hmm. Crysta Brown: Now back to the episode. Don: Certainly. Right? Right. Scott Cooper: Krista wanted a joke and she actually got a full blown adult lecture there. Crysta Brown: Yeah, I was like, first of all, how dare you? ⁓ okay, so like penalties, I personally find fairly easy to understand. A penalty is a penalty, right? They pick up the foot in showmanship, know, the horse bucks, blatant disobedience, like they're pretty obvious. But I think when I was trying to learn my score sheet, the most difficult part for me was the maneuver score, right? That score per maneuver and then onto the F &E. So you spoke a bit to the like negative side of the maneuver score because Don: and Crysta Brown: very like available, very like interested. And I felt like I didn't have to do as much to get what I wanted out of him. Now that could be because like I had more muscle memory of like what he needed from me, but I also feel like he was a little bit like, no, I get you girl. He was a little more with me. Don: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Scott Cooper: kids. Don: Right? Right. Right. Scott Cooper: Mm-hmm. Cause like, yeah, it's cause it's a full moon and like maybe his chakras are aligned the right way. Like you just don't know what you're up Crysta Brown: Okay, so some classes it's negative three to positive three with zero being correct. But then in other classes, it's negative one and a half to positive one and a half, zero being correct. But you were the first person and I don't know why I never thought it was you were like, it's seven either way. It's the same idea. That's how it felt. Yeah. Scott Cooper: Well, thank you for taking care of my son. I think I'm just gonna riot on May 1st and just be like, I'm riding, sorry. You guys, I went for my first jog, my run, we'll call it a run, I guess we'll go for a run, three miles. So I'm like, you know what, if I can run, and like, it didn't hurt, I'm like run sore, I'm not like injury sore. If I can do that, I can ride my damn horse. I'll put this brace back on my arm, because I haven't worn the brace, I'll put it back on. Don: Mm-hmm. Crysta Brown: ⁓ okay. Don: Yeah, it's seven. Yeah, it's seven. So four is average, right? And so there's three up and three down from there. So it's seven. It's always seven. What I like, what I like about the ⁓ plus three minus three business, right, is it really creates ⁓ a slot between the ones. So so you end up with six positions. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. I mean. Okay. Mm-hmm. Scott Cooper: said if I fall, like, I'll be fine. Also, I have a tuck and roll strategy lined up in my brain. So, if you're doctor and you're listening to this and you're screaming, just fast forward. Chip, I'll be fine. Crysta Brown: bright. I mean, I'm scared. Don: above zero or below zero. So when you have really tight scores, you can kind of maneuver inside of there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so really what happens with that, and I try to be really straightforward with my scoring. If anybody follows that, I will be, you know, a plus one, plus two, plus three. When you see me start to say plus one and a half or two and a half, Crysta Brown: I really want you to ride. just like, I don't want my friend to be hurt. Like I have so much anxiety of like, I need you to be okay for me to be okay. You can go two and a half rate one and a half. Yeah, that's nice. Scott Cooper: I do I think I do have another ortho check up before May 1st. So We'll give them the ultimate in my in my PA for my ortho is in an equestrian as well And she is on to my bullshit. Yes 100 % She's a hunter jumper speaking of hundred jumpers So our last episode was very spicy and very fun I David is like my new favorite person and people seem it seems to resonate with people I was a little nervous although maybe people that feel attacked aren't commenting Crysta Brown: What if you talk to them about it? ⁓ that's helpful. Yeah. Okay. Don: I'm trying to fit them in the overall picture and they belong in a particular group. So whenever you ⁓ look at scorecards and say there's 30 runs in a scorecard, you will find a top set, ⁓ a middle set, and a lower set. And the hardest set to get right is that one in the middle. You know, really hard. mean, outstanding individuals scoring up in the high 80s, 90s. Scott Cooper: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Crysta Brown: Me too. Scott Cooper: But ⁓ it was interesting to to hear him, and this is not a diss on him at all, but it was interesting for him to say we're losing the local shows. And then this weekend, I'm driving by the Earl Warren Fairgrounds in Santa Barbara. And there's a sign out that says ⁓ Santa Barbara Fair and Expo in the States, blah, blah. So of course, I go to the websites. like, I love a fair. I love a fair. I want to go see the baby goats, all of it. I love the fair. Crysta Brown: You Scott Cooper: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Don: They're far and few between. Those that are scoring in the 70s, there's a lot of them that land right there. Crysta Brown: You're such a fair kid. Yes. Yeah. And then I'm sure it's hard to go like, well, okay, a 70 kind of denotes an average run or a slightly above average run, right? But I'm sure it's challenging at times to go like, well, why is this average a little bit better than that average? You know, you're really splitting hairs. Scott Cooper: And so going and looking on the website and going down this rabbit hole and there's, ⁓ you know, they got this, there's not much of a horse show at this fair, but on the oral war and links, there was like the, there's like a big show in July. They always do here. It's mostly like the non-stock breeds and hunter jumpers. So I go and I look and it lists like all the different California equine associations that are like, I guess part of those show weeks there's. Don: Right. Correct. Yes, you are. so ⁓ that's just part of the job. Just let me say it's that simple. But what will happen is in an average run, and when you're splitting those hairs, you'll find that somebody actually does a maneuver very well or very good. And then all of a sudden, you can split that hair. They were even all the way. Crysta Brown: Yeah. Scott Cooper: Southern California horsemen's professional horsemen's or I forget all the name of there's there was like five Yeah, like those types in like local club I type type stuff and so I was looking at the website guys there's like there's like a hundred jumper show in Burbank and like the valley and Temecula every single weekend. Oh my god There is I was looking like through all these things and for people not familiar with this geographical Crysta Brown: Like the Horseman's Association probably, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Love it. Don: Until they did that turnaround, know, they were quick, were snappy, they were right in the pocket. They got right around and you go, oh, plus one or plus two, right? But they're still in the seventies group. They don't get out, but there's the difference. They will have a maneuver inside the set that gets them above all the other kind of average runs. And go ahead. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Okay. Scott Cooper: within a two hour radius of Santa Barbara, within a one to two hour radius of LA, there's a horse show every weekend if you do hunter jumpers. I know, I was like, this is amazing, and then I'm like, what are they bitching about? Like, that is dying, there's so many. And then it made me really sad that like, my God, why can't our industry have this? Like, why can't it be more Western? And I know there are smaller, like, open show ⁓ I know there's a big one down in Temecula. Do you ever pick a maneuver that's like your tiebreaker? If you have four people sitting at a 72 and you're just like, don't know, and you have to place them, do you ever use a tiebreaker? Crysta Brown: Wait, that's really cool. I didn't know that. Yeah. Don: Well, you know, always the first high breaker is those little penalty marks, right? So that's the one. And yes, you'll get people that end up landing together. And that's where you can use your F &E really effective. Right? So you might, you know, plus half somebody, and that could be plus one and a half or two and a half, you know, something like that to get that to get that little separation. Scott Cooper: True. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. There are some, yeah. Scott Cooper: But I'm in like I think there's a little bit of one seeing us but I'm just like ⁓ my gosh for us like I have lived in California six years I've yet to show at Burbank even though it's in our backyard because like the things cursed like this. I swear every time we every time ⁓ Right Right and then rain out then there's equine herpes virus and then the LA fires and yeah, it was Yeah, generally cursed. So I was like, mmm. You guys don't have as much to complain about as we do Mm-hmm. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Every time there's a horse show that tries to be held in Burbank, it was like there was a COVID shutdown and then it rained out. Like it's crazy. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. Genuinely cursed. Yeah. Don: And you wouldn't believe I come home after judging a horse show and I'll go to myself, did I get that one right? And there'll be a run inside the runs that maybe, you know, did I do that justice? And I have to think about that. mean, care, judges carry that stuff home with them. They really do to make sure that they're getting it right. So the next time they're out there, you know, they think a little bit deeper about what they're seeing and how they're scoring it. Scott Cooper: But that was interesting to see. Crysta Brown: Hmm. I mean, that is one specific area in fairness, but I get what you're saying. Yeah, we would love to have that many options in a close radius, but don't you kind of think it's because there's a lot of rich people that do hunter jumpers in Southern California? I mean, if we're guessing. Scott Cooper: It is. It is. Mmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So Don, you and I actually met while you were judging and I was ring stewarding. I think we were in Iowa. I wish I could remember specifically the show, but I worked a lot and I know we worked together there. And as a ring steward, I've sat through many, many, many judges scoring horsemanship or trail and I've ascribed all of it. So... Probably, honestly. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's probably true. Crysta Brown: But how do we get them to think that they should take their rich people money to paint and quarter horse shows? That's what needs to happen. Scott Cooper: ⁓ They listen to this podcast, they get hooked, they find our socials. They're like, ⁓ my God, they're so fun. Don: Right, right, right, right. Crysta Brown: No, I think we single-handedly will save the industry. That's reasonable. Speaking of saving the industry, our guest today is the person who makes me want to be in this industry. ⁓ I cannot tell you the fondness that I have for Don Beard, the great. Don Beard is my favorite human. ⁓ It's kind of like Scott Don Beard and they switch depending on the day. Scott Cooper: I... You know what? I think you're... I don't think you're lying on that one. ⁓ Yes. I'm going to say some controversial. I'm not going to name any names, but I have had judges where at the end of class we look at our score sheet and there are some ties in that first, second, third, and they will go back and change an F and E. Do you find that ethical? Is that right? It's like you're judging without currently watching a pattern. What are your thoughts on that? Crysta Brown: You Scott Cooper: We love him. Don: Right, so I think that I guess that's one way out of the trap, so to speak for a judge. And if you've scribed for me, we've probably if we had a tie, I've probably told you if we have a tie, I need to know right away. Yeah. Yeah, you got four of them here. What do you want to do with them? You know, right? I right. So so I try to be. Scott Cooper: That's fair. Crysta Brown: But, ⁓ yeah, he, ⁓ not biologically, but he is my real dad. he is also a judge. Dude. Yeah. No, he is so, so good. And like, I'm going to fawn over him in the intro because he'll be like weird about it if I do it during the thing, but like genuinely, like nobody has like been there for me more and like the hard moments supportive of me, like staying inside the industry. Like this is such a good human and he has been so. Scott Cooper: I'm hoping by the end of this you will be my dad too. No offense to my real dad. I love you so, but. Yeah, which I appreciate when those judges say that because I don't want to get the end and then be awkward and be like, well, do you remember this one? Right. Don: really quick about that and I think that's a better way out to know exactly. Yes, it's right there and you can think through your last run. You just got a tie. can think through your last run and really you remember what went on in there and if it's an F &E change or if it's a maneuver change. Maybe I was too generous right there. Crysta Brown: instrumental to my career, getting to the place that it is. And like, he's always open for me to bounce ideas off of him. And he has such a important perspective because he's been a state director and involved with APHA and AQHA for so long. He really helps me understand the why behind things when I'm like, well, I want to change this rule. Yeah. He kind of goes well when it was put into place. This is what it looked like. And for me, that has been so, so helpful to understanding the industry and wanting to be involved, but also. so it's fresh in your brain? Okay. Scott Cooper: Mm-hmm. Yeah, like historical context. Yeah. Crysta Brown: Mmm. ⁓ Scott Cooper: Yeah, that's true. Don: And so, but that's right in my head or maybe I wasn't generous enough with a particular maneuver and then I have you go back in and say, well, that's a plus half. It's not a zero. Right. Crysta Brown: respecting what came before. So ⁓ anyway, I'm really excited for you guys to listen. Scott Cooper: Yeah. Yeah, I got to work with Don, I think multiple times when I was ring stewarding in Iowa in Minnesota. ⁓ So I've been a big fan. And of course, like, who could not fall in love with them after the pictures of him co coaching with you the Youth World Games? Like, was that two years ago? ⁓ my God, it was just adorable. Like, it's just Don Beard, you're a legend. We can't wait to have you on. Crysta Brown: Before we go much further, I'm really sorry. Can I just have you clarify what F &E is? The friends and enemies column? Scott Cooper: And. Don: Yes. Form and effective. You know, that's the way that's the way I look at it. And you know, I I try to be generous with that too. And if you see me landing on a zero, you can bet. They're in the 50s. Right? A lot went wrong, a lot wrong. Five. Crysta Brown: ⁓ he was so good. Yes. Yeah. Okay. He is a legend. So anyway, we'll cut right to it. Let him take it away. A lot went wrong. Yeah. But F &E is zero to five, correct? Don: That's correct. An average really should be like one or a two, possibly a three, right? And then as you go up in the score, you really need to come up in F and E because look, they had to have good form, they had to be effective, or they wouldn't be sitting on an 88, right? And so you throw a four at them and let that go, and now you've got them up in the 90s. Crysta Brown: Okay. Okay. Scott Cooper: Yeah. What Crysta Brown: Right, Scott Cooper: That's fair. Don: So really that's the way it should work in my mind and that's how I use it. Crysta Brown: Do you ever use F and E to like encourage somebody to be like, okay, I know this horse was clunking you out today, but like you are a fabulous horsemanship rider or does it not really work that way? Okay. Don: does not work that way. You know, to me, they weren't very effective and really the F &E should demonstrate the lack of effectiveness. And so, you know, that's just part of it, but they ought to see that in the maneuver scores. You know, where Shep got ahead of them or fell behind or realized that he wasn't in the game today. You know, I mean, that's just, that's all part of it. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Scott Cooper: Mm-hmm. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Don: And if you're not careful, you end up with more of those in that big ball in the center. So you have to be very realistic about how you're scoring these things. Crysta Brown: Yeah, that's fair. Don: Okay? And then why can you only get a two when you wanted a three? Scott Cooper: Bye. Crysta Brown: Well, that's what I don't get. I think I should be a five every time. Don: That's. Right, so maybe yeah, so so maybe maybe think of this. Think of the maneuvers separately. And and then think about the degree of difficulty per maneuver. Right, so if it's low degree maneuvers. Right, how can you ever? How can you ever get to a three? You have to wait these things. You know it's in my head. It's a weighted scale. Scott Cooper: you Crysta Brown: You Okay. Scott Cooper: Hmm. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Don: If it's a very difficult maneuver and you knock that out, you'll see a three, right? But if it's just your standard showmanship, 360, you're doing it, you're snapping. How can I get that to a three? Well, I can't. Now take that past 360 and start talking about 450s, 470s, stuff like that. Then the degree... Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Right, right. Mm-hmm. Don: of difficulty of the maneuver goes up and I feel like I can get to that three when things are great. Does that make sense? Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. It does. Scott Cooper: Yeah. So as an exhibitor and as just basically not as a judge, as a non judge person, to me, the score sheets were developed. Well, maybe you know the answer to this. When did score sheets for horsemanship and trail and everything like make its way into the realm? Don: crazy is this? mean, there was a time when we were scoring 1 to 10. Then we went to 20s. Oh yeah, then we went to 20s. But I think just because of the quality of the exhibitor, we needed to get to where we could separate stuff. And you start fooling around with those numbers. And back in the days when it was 1 to 20, Crysta Brown: No way. Don: then the ball was a sitting at 13. That's where the average group was landing, you know? you didn't have, you had no room to work with anything. I mean, you were just stuck. And as the quality come up and the amount of exhibitors that were in the pen with you, they had to come up with something. And I thank them for that. I think where we're at now is really nice. Crysta Brown: Hmm average, okay Scott Cooper: Yeah... well- Crysta Brown: Yeah. Scott Cooper: You have to. Yeah. Yeah. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Scott Cooper: I mean, I remember the change. I I sort of bring Stuart in 2013. I remember when like the newest iteration of score sheets came out, because I had to like change my whole system as I prepped for shows, which I like. And I think there's this perception in some amateurs that the score sheet kind of takes away subjectivity a little bit. But as we talk to judges and hear about how they score things and how we're talking about F and E, like, do you... Like it seems like it doesn't. It doesn't really take away a lot of subjectivity. It gives it more structure. But like what are your thoughts? Don: ⁓ Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I go back to that kind of weighted system in my head. ⁓ I think finally I have a score sheet that that each maneuver can be handled correctly. ⁓ And and my subjectivity is still there, but it really gives me the room to set that where I think it belongs. in each maneuver. So if you just cut out one maneuver all the way down the down the score sheet, then you'll actually see that subjectivity come right back into the picture. Because if I give somebody, you know, a plus two in the maneuver, I certainly am thinking there that is a pretty nice run. ⁓ Today, if we see, say, 10 maneuvers, right, and we're sitting on a 70 when we start, and it's 10 times 3, that's 30. If they all have that high level degree of difficulty, you could get to 100, right? And then you'd have F and E on top of it. So you can, now you see the, that's how I think about it and how I weigh that thing and each maneuver has a weight in my mind. There's maneuvers that are no more, can't be more than a plus two. Crysta Brown: Right. Yeah. Scott Cooper: work. Yeah. Yeah, I like that. I've never thought about it that way. Don: Yeah, so I think that's really what you're seeing, but the subjectivity is still there. Scott Cooper: Yeah. Yeah. Crysta Brown: ⁓ Okay. But we briefly speak to subjectivity and judges? Cause I don't know if you've heard, but judges are ruining the industry. ⁓ yeah, ⁓ yeah, it's all on you guys. ⁓ but ⁓ think going to be some people listening that go is subjectivity a good thing or should it be completely by the rule book? And you guys should know what a plus two. ⁓ Scott Cooper: It's all your fault. Don: Welcome to my world. ⁓ Right, right. Crysta Brown: jog from A to B looks like. Yeah. Like, so can you help me understand, like, from my understanding, you guys need to be able to justify everything by the rule book, but there's still some room for, um, let's say maybe you're watching horsemanship and your eye goes to Scott's position and you're like, wow, that's amazing. But the judge next to you gets really, um, stuck on his connection to his horse. And so maybe that's where we see differences. Like. Scott Cooper: Right. Should AI be watching our horses and score? Don: Yes. Crysta Brown: Help me understand why some, one judge might give me one maneuver score and the judge sitting that right near them is giving me a different maneuver score. Don: ⁓ A perfect example, and I was sitting next to somebody and it had a change in equitation. Crysta Brown: Okay. Don: Okay, a change of leads in the equitation. And depending on what's coming up and what's in front of it, that can be a really tough maneuver, right? And I plus two'd it and she zeroed it. And I thought to myself, I really have to ask her when we're done. Why? Right? And she says, well, I just don't like them to get out of their tack. And I thought to me, Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Don: You understand what I mean by out of their tack? was, yeah, that was her big deal, but her horse wasn't the best changer. So she did the best thing in equitation that you can do was to get out of her tack just a little bit and drive that horse across. I thought it was amazing. I mean, I thought it was at least a two, a plus two because she actually showed equitation. She didn't show post-seat stamp performance. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like stood up in the saddle. Yeah. Perfect, yeah, yeah. Don: Yes, he showed equitation how to drive one across when they're not a great big changer. And you see that a lot in the over fence stuff. You'll see them come out of their tack when they come across the last fence and they're going to go around the end. They'll come up out of their tack. That's what they've been taught to do to drive those horses across. So, you know, I mean, there's a difference of opinion. And really, I think Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Don: What happens in these scored classes like that, we're not all the same is, you know, truly what's your background, right? What did you, how did you come up? Where did you come up in the industry? ⁓ you know, do you like mares better than gildings? You know, I've met all that stuff's playing inside the head. It's spinning around in there. ⁓ really that's where the subjectivity comes in. It ⁓ is your background and everybody brings it with them. Crysta Brown: Ha ha ha! Scott Cooper: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's why you showed up multiple judges. I just gonna say there are judges I have stopped showing to you because I just know they don't enjoy me. And guess what? That's OK. Like I'm not for everyone and I'm not gonna waste my money to go to it. Like I just know from enough times. So. Don: Right? Exactly. Right. You know, in. Crysta Brown: You Don: Right. Right. And here's here's here's another thing. And I try to recognize the difference every time I see a man versus a woman doing horsemanship or equitation. Men set different than women. They're not structurally the same. So the look cannot be the same. And so I make sure that when I have a man in the pen and ⁓ it's horsemanship, equitation. Scott Cooper: Thank you. Mm-hmm. Thank you. Crysta Brown: Yes. Don: that they're gonna be different. They're gonna be a little different. It's really the difference between a man and a woman and how they sit and how they control. so I expect, yeah, I expect to see that difference. And I think like Scott, I've seen some people be really hard on the man and I'm going, well, I think you did good. I started responding. Yeah. Crysta Brown: Yeah, the pelvic ball is a different shape, of course. Yeah. Scott Cooper: There are some people who are man haters, I swear. And then people talk about penis privilege with me. I'm like, bullshit. have like penis, like, I don't know what's the word I'm looking for, but you know what I mean. Like, penis repellent. Yeah, there's some judges that do not like me. And I can tell don't like other guys. And that's fine. Just like flag that so I don't go to those shows. But I appreciate you saying that. And I'm in only show to Don Beard from now on. Crysta Brown: Bye. I mean, Don: Yes. Crysta Brown: repellent. Don: Right? Right? Right? ⁓ ⁓ yeah, right. That won't get you anywhere. Crysta Brown: same. Scott Cooper: So like along this line of F &E and like the scores, I think of something like the L3 horsemanship at the Quarter Horse Youth World where like there's a hundred in the class. These girls are crazy good. There is like that top tier is so damn good. Like how do you, how do you differentiate kids like that? And like when you know that their mom's over your shoulder looking too and you have to deal with that like. Don: Right. ⁓ yeah, ⁓ yeah, might be sitting right behind you as close as she can get. ⁓ Scott Cooper: Yeah. Like, what are you seeing to separate that first place from third? Like, what does that do? Don: You know, it may come right down to, you know, say, to me, because it's one of them really easy things to see, it's when a leg comes loose in equitation, you know, ⁓ again, ⁓ over fences, those things are like rocks, right? And so you keep those kinds of things in mind, and there may be somebody that just has a slight swing to the leg underneath the horse. So that lower leg is disengaged and it may be just that little bitty thing. It could be the forward position of the body at the trot. It's just really hard to say what that item's gonna be when you start separating those things. So like when I see the seated trot, I really wanna see that leg connected. And if I see any movement at all, it's ankle down, right? you know, they'll flex an ankle to take that rather than take their leg off the horse. ⁓ So it's little bitty things like that that you'll catch and you really got to deal with that again. of course, that's subjectivity again, but you just try to find the things that dishonor the discipline and the upper end. Crysta Brown: Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Don: if that makes sense. Crysta Brown: Well, can I just say I appreciate that you keep equating the equitation back to the over fences because isn't that kind of the point of the class and you're a little bit of a traditionalist and ⁓ you think like me or should I say I think like you, but I appreciate that because I think. Don: There you go. Crysta Brown: sometimes our classes can get a little far from their roots. And when I think about things like hunter under saddle and equitation, like I often think back to like, well, these really in theory are preparatory classes for over fences. And so I think the effectiveness of the rider and equitation, it should look different than a horsemanship rider. mean, they should be prepared to go over a fence and like take whatever the horse gives them. Don: That's true. Scott Cooper: girls? Crysta Brown: this is a good moment to ⁓ to the patterns and the different level of pattern. Because when I think of like, well, what's different in like the L3 at Youth World, it's like, well, they do give them a crazy challenging pattern. And then they come back and do finals on a different, extremely challenging pattern. ⁓ when you're allowed to pick patterns for a show, ⁓ How do you kind of think about what pattern you want to see and how do you pick, ⁓ I want some challenge, but I don't want to intimidate and I want it for beginners. I find that really hard when I have to pick patterns for shows, so I'm curious your thoughts. Don: Right, right. So I think really the basis of all patterns should be on the same plane. So, you know, I always look for patterns that complement each other. The cones are where the cones are at for all the levels, right? So they're basically going to ride the same pattern with different pieces, right? So ⁓ the more difficult the pattern becomes, Crysta Brown: Yeah. Scott Cooper: preach. Don: So you're L3, L4 or ⁓ amateur classic or whatever, you know, ⁓ those you will, those patterns to me, they have to have the lead change, of course. Crysta Brown: Yeah. Don: And when you get to the lower end, may say, well, I'm going to have that lead change, but I'm going to have them drop to the trot and make the change, you know, and then maybe drop to the walk to make the change. So you're trying to make it easier on the exhibitor to accommodate a change, just using the change as an example. ⁓ You may have put the extended sitting trot, you know, something like that for the upper end. things like that just to see how their legs handle it how sit it ⁓ You those sort of things where the ones you will you'll just have them do a trot You won't won't push them on the extended seated. That's a tough right there So that ends up being in the upper level stuff But basically the same pattern routine throughout with the same cone placement So as as moving up and some like to ride, you know ⁓ two different levels Crysta Brown: right. Mm-hmm. Don: Right, so ⁓ they're still on the same pattern, maybe with different pieces in the pattern. Hopefully that answers your question. That was kind of a left-handed question too, by the way. Crysta Brown: ⁓ my God. Scott Cooper: I do love it and as a former steward and who knows maybe future steward it's always way nicer when it can be like same cones please just like change it up a little bit same same thing with the trail like do not make me set a whole new pattern. Don: Yeah, please. Right. Crysta Brown: But I think it's a common complaint among exhibitors when they're like, this pattern is like completely not fair to the novice or people, you know, like I do think I'm kind of thinking of the commentary that I hear from the side of the pen and the peanut gallery that I would love to have a judge speak to you because when you guys are standing in the middle, you get to place it, but that's really your only feedback that you get to give. Don: Ha Right, right. Yeah, so so a lot of times what I'll do ⁓ if they ask me to supply patterns, I will say regionally where you at? You know, where's your biggest group of exhibitors? Are they the upper end or there's some upper, know, and I try to then I try to pick patterns that kind of fit the area. What has started to happen a lot and I'm OK with it. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Scott Cooper: Mm-hmm. Don: ⁓ is ⁓ show management is beginning to pick patterns. They just send them out to us to make sure we're okay with them. And so hopefully what they're doing, starting to do is they're picking patterns that fit their region, right? And they're known exhibitors so that maybe some of that goes away. It is really hard as a judge, they say, send me the patterns for equitation or horsemanship. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Scott Cooper: Yeah. Don: And you go, what do you got? ⁓ you know, they're probably pretty good. And you send them that set of patterns, you get there and you find out, no, the novice, the really good ones are novice. You know, so you've landed the wrong patterns on them and you just have to live with it. Crysta Brown: Mmm... Mmm... Scott Cooper: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, can like, there's, you know, having come out to California where when I lived in the Midwest, I heard like, Oh, California Trail is king, Trail is king. And I was like, yeah, whatever. And I got here, I was like, Oh, yeah, actually it is. Because the patterns we do out here would have suffocated someone in one these Midwest, like local clubs, like I can think of one specifically, I'm not gonna say it, like, like, they just can't. And that's okay. You know, I love that word. Don: Yeah? Yeah, my video. Yeah, my video. Right. Right. Crysta Brown: you Scott Cooper: giving regions their own kind of, you leveling system within that. Don: Right. And that's really up to that show management to kind of figure that piece out. Cause they, they call four judges and they say, come judges saying we got our patterns. You get there and they got way too much pattern, you know? and like you say, you get to California and, you start watching what foot goes over a log first in a circle. I mean, because, ⁓ that's going to be a divider. If it's, if they're moving to the left and the Scott Cooper: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Crysta Brown: Okay. Mm-hmm. Don: front left foot doesn't go over, they're wrong. They're gonna be wrong because, I mean, it may look okay, but the difference, there you go, there's the difference. How you approach and where the feet go and that sort of thing, it can get a little. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Scott Cooper: Mm-hmm. Yeah, totally. And every single log is lifted every single one. Can we switch the ranch a little bit? I have some questions. So. Don: Yep. Everyone. All right. ⁓ sure, why not? I got one, do you need one? Crysta Brown: ranch horse? Yeah, he does. Scott Cooper: I always need another one. Don: You Scott Cooper: Well, okay, so here's my question. This is a string of questions probably, but we did great at the Western Nationals in 24 and 25. Like, you see the buckles on the wall behind me. I take him to the World Show last year though. I know, small flax. Thank you. Do you like that, I take him to the World Show last year and I got my ass handed to me for a week and a half in the ranch. And I was like, oh, I guess we're not good at this. Can you... Crysta Brown: Ha Scott Cooper: Like was it just a different caliber of horses? Like I'm thinking let's let's talk about ranch rail pleasure, which was like I was like for sure like this is our best ranch class like he's such a good move around it and we didn't even get we didn't make the cut at the World Show. What are judges looking for in that? Don: up. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, ⁓ that's a good question. And I will tell you what I look for. Because there is some separation and thought here in the ranch thing. ⁓ One of the things that's really important to me, first of all, it is not a race of any kind. Right? But it's not a pleasure class either. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Don: Right. So high quality movers. that I right away will try to find them that are really coming forward for me. They're not running off. They're on a nice big long trot and it looks easy to ride and whoever's riding them can sit it and or post it. And there's some difficulty there. Some and you know people always say well what's what's the difference? know do you stand? you? on the diagonal, do you think the highest degree of difficulty is to do? Scott Cooper: you Don: Do Crysta Brown: ⁓ I mean, I think a citra would be the highest area of difficulty. Don: Yeah, baby, it's a it's a set rod. mean, what? Yeah. You can set it. You can post it. You can stand. Scott Cooper: Wait, so we could set the extended? Crysta Brown: Yeah. Scott Cooper: Why am I just not alr- Krista, you've been coaching me wrong this whole time! Crysta Brown: because your horse's legs look the best when you stand. Don: And there you go. There's another thing. It creates the quality underneath and keeps the legs slow. Some people, they'll get up hitting that diagonal and they just knock that front foot right to the goddamn ground. I so I always think, and we have this discussion all the time at the house here, we gotta slow that posting trot down. Let them float. Scott Cooper: Yeah. Crysta Brown: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Don: And what happens as soon as you get somebody that's hitting that diagonal, like, God have mercy, I'm on it, right? And what it does is it knocks that front leg down, so it shortens everything. Different way to think about that? Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Scott Cooper: I mean, I think that equates to like the hunters. mean, like you can post way too hard in the hunters and like slowing it actually have some float. Don: It does. Right? You see, you should watch a big ranch class because you'll see the very same thing. Crysta Brown: But. Scott Cooper: I'm just, I'm sorry, I cannot get past that. Like I could have been sitting in my extended trot this whole time. I thought you like had to be up out of the saddle. Don: No. You need to demonstrate that change of speed, right? And the more you can change it and still set it, I'll see it. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Don: I'll see. I mean, and so really, so back to the original question, which you said there'd be a string of them coming. I look for that leg that's soft and slow and is really coming forward. Not that, you know, always, I say to myself, it looks like bicycle pedals behind. You know what I mean? They're going round and round and that's not good. Scott Cooper: There's lots. There's been at least six. Hmm. Don: they should be flowing forward, right? Which will drive the front leg forward too. So there's some things that goes on. And there's another thing that I watch for on the rail, especially the trot. ⁓ There may be a diagonal that's just short. I'm not telling you they're off. It's probably just a shade weaker than the other one, but that stands out. ⁓ And you will see that. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Okay. Don: And so, you know, how do I grade that along with another one that doesn't show me that? Well, it would be behind that one. If all I was doing was judging the trot, then here comes the lope. Holy shit, it can lope. You know, and I mean, it sticks its front leg out and it goes somewhere. you know, that then there's those ones that are still thinking that faster is better and their old legs are going fast and they're going fast and Scott Cooper: Yeah Don: They're pulling an inside line. Crysta Brown: But why, but Dawn, why do these judges keep letting these goddamn horses get, their necks getting lower and lower and it looks just like the pleasure now and everything's going to hell in a hand basket. What do you have to say? Don: Yeah, yeah, Vivian was down at Scottsdale and she asked me the very same question when she come home. Why are they letting them get so low? And I said, well, you know, relaxed is relaxed. How are they built? You have to ask yourself. Yeah, when you're judging it, you have to ask yourself that question. Is that a horse that's built up? Is it built flat or is it built a little down? It's the same thing. We're doing the same thing to the ranch horse we did to the pleasure horses as we build them. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Don: So confirmationally, they may carry a little low. But look, if they're bright and they're intending and their ears are forward and they're relaxed and you know, there's too low. I mean, and when I say too low, mean, all you got to do is watch the rainers go around. Scott Cooper: Well... Crysta Brown: sure. Scott Cooper: Well, I was gonna say, that a product of like all our rancher, ranch riders are coming from the Rainers? Yeah. Don: Exactly. So they are built that way and that's how they're comfortable going. So, you know, how hard can you be on it? Well, you can be pretty hard if you want to. I try to just be ⁓ where I think they're relaxed. And yes, I would use one that's a little low. I wouldn't have any problem with that. Boy, they start diving off and I probably am going to start turning my back and looking somewhere else. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Scott Cooper: which was one of my additional follow-up questions. Again, there's 47 questions in this time. I had the largest horse in there at 15'2". All the rest of them are bald-faced spooks got a whiz. They all looked exactly the same. I'm not joking. I was just like, I am so much a sore thumb in here. Even though like he doesn't really look like a pleasure horse either. He's totally a tweener. Don: I know. I know, got two of them. They're bald-faced, right? Scott Cooper: Does that make a difference? Like should they have the look of like what we're seeing right now? Yeah, it is a type that that Rainer right now is like that's a winning. Crysta Brown: You're asking about type. Yeah. Like does type play a factor? Don: Right. Typing. Yes. Yeah, I think I think type is changing. And you got to watch this because as we go, you know, what was in five years ago is probably not quite as acceptable as it was. It is today. And I think the rail horses. ⁓ like the ranch rail horses, they're getting bigger. Pay attention, they are getting bigger. So they're finding more body, ⁓ a little more leg underneath of them. And those horses are gonna be hard to beat. It's like a great big hunt seat, they're not gonna go that big. Scott Cooper: They'll be 15, too. It'll be perfect for Chip. Don: Yeah, yeah, they're going to get up there. They're the 14, two, 14, three horse. You see a lot of them still and some of them are great horses. And so you can't ignore them, but they may not fit in the rail as well as some of those bigger horses will. That'll kind of draw your eye a little more. ⁓ So just be careful. It's changing all the time. Scott Cooper: Mm. Yeah. Well, this makes me think about like, kind of ranches origins that it really seemed to be kind of like a catch all for pleasure rejects. And some people wouldn't try right like it. It is I know, but it is it's true. I mean, we're pleasure rejects. I mean, we love patterns, but like we're never gonna do the pleasure. Crysta Brown: ⁓ that's a spicy thing to say, Scott. The people are going to bite you. Yeah, but people would say that we're ruining ranch. Like there are people who would say that Scott Cooper and Crysta Brown are ruining the ranch because they take pleasure horses in there and whoop, whoop everybody's ass. Well, yeah. Don: Right? Right. Scott Cooper: Wuh. Well, not at the World Show. But is, I mean, feel like Ranch used to be like a much more diverse types of horses. And I feel like it's getting super specialized within the last couple years. Like we're having the Bud Lion effect of just like, and the Spooks, I mean, like I said, like the Spooks got to his horses where the entire pen at the World Show, is it getting to type E? And is that a bad thing? And like, what do we do with? Don: right? I think some of them from five years ago still do fine ⁓ because they're those high quality movers. think where you really, if you want to kind of get a grip on it, there's two places to look. That is the paint world, the quarter world. Those are Scott Cooper: these horses that maybe five years ago would have done okay in the ranch. Don: the same horses basically because we've done it. Right. ⁓ Yes, that's correct. But if you want to see the difference in the ranch horse, have to go over to VRH. Scott Cooper: zero doubles. Don: And there you will begin to see the difference between the two horses. And I think that's probably going to stay that way. That separation is truly there. Because those horses, you know, I mean, they're going to cut on them, they're going to rope on them, they're going to do the rail on them, they're going to do the pleasure of the trail, they're going to do all that stuff on them. And at the same time, Scott Cooper: Mm-hmm. Don: ⁓ That thought over there really is the true ranch horse. Can it go do the job? means that's probably a bigger horse. Might be a little more coarser built. ⁓ know, heavier bone, heavier leg, bigger withered. ⁓ You know, some things like that. More of a little bit of more upright way of going. Right. That's over there at VRH We've taken those horses and we're turning them into truly show horses. Scott Cooper: Mm-hmm. Yeah, like actual ranch horses. Yeah. Don: on the other side at the ranch show at the breach. So there are two different horses, right? Scott Cooper: No, yeah, yeah, the ranch, the ranch is, yeah, that's what was gonna say is like the ranch just seems like it's the show ponies now and VRH is like actual horses that could go work outside if they had to and wouldn't die of the air quality. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's fair. Don: Right, right. Crysta Brown: Yeah. Don: Okay, what's the rest of the series of questions? Scott Cooper: so many. Krista, you can do one though. I'll have to think. Crysta Brown: Okay, well, I was kind of wanting to pivot us a little bit if that's okay. And I would be really curious to know, like, from the judge's perspective, whatever the class, what are the things that get you, excited and make you love judging? And maybe I'm making an assumption that you love judging, but I think you do. Scott Cooper: Go Don: I, know, and a lot of, a lot of guys don't like it, but I'll tell you what really gets me excited is, it doesn't matter whether it's the ranch trail ⁓ the, the show trail in those big tough patterns. ⁓ really like them because I you just kind of lock in and you get to just lock into a maneuver and they can, ⁓ and I love the trail there. That's my, my favorite class is actually the trail. Scott Cooper: Me too. Don: because you can just lock in on every maneuver, you know, and try to grade that on the ⁓ go. So, I get excited when there's big trail classes. I like that. ⁓ You know, I like the pattern classes. I guess that's really what I like. You know, the pleasure. not picking on anything here. ⁓ Crysta Brown: No, please do. Say it, say it. Scott Cooper: Say it, say it, don't say it. Don: I mean, it's rarer to find that really nice horse in the Western Pleasure. They have got them so mechanical that, you know, they're doing things, you know what they're doing. mean, you can know, well, they jerked every stride right there. They chop that front leg off. It crawls the wall. Scott Cooper: Hmm. Don: You know, they're up and down. They lost all of their momentum and they just keep right on riding them like that. and, and really, I, I don't know if it's the trainer's fault. Um, they, they're, they're dealing with what they got, what somebody sent them. And, and it's, it's. That's exactly right. And if it has to be mechanical, but it'll. Crysta Brown: I feel like it's... Yeah. People are making the most out of what they have. Mm-hmm. Don: crack back and get slow and get really ugly or mechanical, whichever you want to call it. ⁓ You live with that. And sometimes we get to a horse show and people are going, what are they thinking placing that horse? Well, he's the best of the worst. It's what it is. That's ugly. Well, we thought so too, but it's better than the uglier one. ⁓ Crysta Brown: You Scott Cooper: Yeah, I've heard that from judges. Crysta Brown: I think that needed said, that needed said because people don't understand that. Yeah. Well said. Scott Cooper: Right. That's so true. I've heard that from many judges in my ring story and they're just like, ⁓ my God, like if I could just give every one of them last place, I would, but like you have to choose. Should we just? Don: So sick. Right? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And we have actually have that right to put them wherever we want them. But God almighty. Oh man, I've seen it done. Oh man, that'll get you that will get you throw down. Oh my God. I was I actually was ring starting for another judge and he goes. He goes. Crysta Brown: Really? They'd put your head on a stake, I think. Scott Cooper: I know. You don't get cancelled so fast. Go ahead. Don: They don't, he says, when I tell them to lope, I want them to lope. That was, you know, that's still to this day, people wait and wait and wait and somebody has to lope off somewhere, right? And he was telling me how he hated that. And it was like 20 head in the class. And he said, have them lope. I mic'd up, said, lope. The announcer says, Lope. He sat there and when seven of them Lope, he says, have them stop. And I said, what? He said, stop him. Stop. He stopped him, you know, like something was wrong, you know? And he goes, perfect. He says, I got my card now. And he filled them out. did, they didn't lope. He didn't use them. And he only let seven of them lope. And he called it. Crysta Brown: ⁓ You know what? Good for him. Good for him. Scott Cooper: Good for him. You know what? I need more radical stuff like that. I'm so sick of stupid stuff and Western pleasure. Don: That's all. We don't get to be radical anymore and that was radical. That was pretty damn radical, but he taught a lesson that day. Crysta Brown: Can we play like Western pleasure myth busters for just a second here? I have a couple things that I hear all the time that I would love for you to just give us a quick like, do you care? Do you not care? Okay. Number one, passing in the Western pleasure. Scott Cooper: Yes, please. Don: Okay. Okay. I don't care. ⁓ I don't care. I have ridden for a buyer a horse that when you put it on the rail, I don't know how the hell they got it back off the rail. Scott Cooper: being off the rail. Crysta Brown: What if you weren't showing on the rail? Don: I mean, they would stick to the rail, no steering. That's just what it was. So can they pass? Yeah, they can show me that they can maneuver in the pen with other horses. There's nothing wrong with that. And if that's the step their horse needs to make to stay clean and good, good for them. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Don does the slowest horse win? Don: NO Crysta Brown: Thank you for saying it. Scott Cooper: Thank you. Does a jacket with the most bling win? No, I knew it. She's gotta have boobs. No boys. Don: Yes, that's the winner every time. ⁓ Crysta Brown: ⁓ yeah. Well, it is Don Beard. Don: No, Jack, you know, and what's really funny, you'll get in the big pleasure court and there'll be 20 bling jackets in there and you're going, holy shit, how do I tell those bling jackets apart? Really, really, really what I do is my hand, when I really am in trouble with the first two or three horses, you'll see me lift my hand or you'll see me, I will tilt my hat way down. The only thing I can see is the top line of the horse. Scott Cooper: Right. Totally. you Crysta Brown: Wow. Yeah. Scott Cooper: Love that. Don: I will cut out the rider and you watch other judges. I'm not the only one that pulls that stunt, but we'll take that square bill and down it'll come. And we won't be looking at the rider any longer. We'll look at the horse. Crysta Brown: Alright. Scott Cooper: love that so much. Crysta Brown: Okay, last question. Let's say we watch the video of this horse that I've got and where his legs look the best, the softest, looks like you could ride that horse all day is a bit more forward. Is that okay? Don: Yeah, it does forward doesn't bother me as long as it's not too forward, right? I mean, there's a line there. You gotta draw a line in the sand if it's just pleasure. If it's going forward like a ranch horse, he's probably in the wrong class. Right? OK. Crysta Brown: That's fair. Okay, to switch gears slightly unless Scott wants a turn. Scott Cooper: No, I was trying to think of like another pleasure example, but honestly, like, it's just gonna get me in trouble. I'm being a pleasure hater right now, so go on. Crysta Brown: No, I mean, I think like an amazing pleasure horse is something we all like to see. But I think what's hard is you see that at the quarter world. You know what I mean? Like you see that at those really elite special places with those really elite special horses. But then I wish the rest of us, and this is my personal opinion, would show the horse we have, not the horse we wish we had. Don: Ha Scott Cooper: Agreed. Don: Right. Right. Right. You got that from me because that's something I say all the time. You stole that somewhere. Right. Crysta Brown: Yeah. Scott Cooper: She stole everything she knows from you, Dan. Crysta Brown: Okay. Okay. Speaking of things that I stole from you are kind of last tidbit. I'm going to like completely turn things here. Will you speak to me a little bit about conversations we've had before, but the loss of the local level show and something that really opened up my perspective and something I maybe wasn't aware of. Cause I wasn't really on the horse scene when that change happened was you spoke to me a lot about how you believe the loss of the local level stallion. and the use of AI really changed our local show circuit. Can you bring me into that a little? Don: Yeah. So if you turn back the clock and you just have to turn it back quite a little ways now, ⁓ all the clubs, if you look at, you know, the presidents, the vice presidents, secretaries, treasurers and stuff, they were all breeders. ⁓ And so they held those clubs together because, you know, they were breeding, you know, 10, 12 mares a year. They had to find a place for them. So they ⁓ got involved with the horse shows, they ran the futurities. know, if I had, for example, if I had bred 15 mares, I might get three or four of those clients to bring their little babies to the horse show for the little futurity. know, all you gotta do is hold your breath. It's not hard to show a horse in halter, you know. Crysta Brown: Yeah. Don: And so we drug people in doing that. Maybe only one out of 10 of those people stuck. I don't really know what that number is. But then we got into the ship seaman. And I can have the greatest horse, the one I think is the greatest horse in the world, standing in my barn tomorrow breeding my mare. And that started happening with lots of people. They wanted to improve their local quality. ⁓ So the breeders, the local breeders started to die off slowly because people moved to that. And if you look back at what that cost back in the day, you could get shipped semen. You know, maybe it was a couple hundred dollars more by the time you got it shipped and everything, because they made all these great deals. So what they did was wean out all the stallion owners. Well, the club began to get taken over by amateurs and youth mothers. and stuff like that. they didn't create growth within a club. So the growth that was going on within a club or at least holding it stationary was really from the breeders. And so I think that's really the problem now. And as those shows got smaller and smaller, ⁓ judges fees really haven't really changed in a lot of years. That's not the issue. that we got into is some facilities got built and really reasonably they were showing inside to start with. And then pretty soon nobody wanted to show outside. They want to show inside. The cost of those facilities is really high. Clubs couldn't afford to do that. They would maybe try it a couple times, they'd lose all their money and then there was their seed money for the next year. Clubs started dying left and right. Crysta Brown: Mm-hmm. Don: For example, and I hate to name a club, but one of the greatest clubs in the country was the Rocky Mountain Painthorse Association in Colorado. It was huge. I mean, they had like 600 members, just regular members. And now they're down to, they don't even put on a show. They actually approve other shows in the region and they... Crysta Brown: Wow. Don: They can't even afford to run a show now. And I'm not speaking bad of them. It's just what happened. It is. I mean, we showed outside forever and in the rain, the snow, I, you wouldn't believe some of the stuff we showed in and we got away from it. And then we got in the facility thing and with a different membership group that wanted to be comfortable. And so here we are today. A lot of these clubs are all dead. ⁓ Crysta Brown: That's a shame. Yeah. Scott Cooper: Hmm. Don: I wish there was an answer. don't know what that answer is. I mean, I have thoughts and ideas how to bring that and circle it back in. the biggest issue now is the cost of facilities. Everybody has indoor facilities all over the country, right? They're expensive. How can they afford them? Well, it takes a pretty good show to afford one. Crysta Brown: Okay, Scott, do you have a follow up on that one? Scott Cooper: No, I'm just crying a little bit because you made like such a good point. And it like makes me so nostalgic about like showing in someone's backyard in a dirt circle like Don: Right. Right. I sure I judged in. I'm going to say ⁓ Pennsylvania. I don't know, somewhere back East. And I go to this place and I drive up this mud driveway. It's raining. There was a drain in the middle of the arena. It's a muddy pen and it rained on us all day. And we stood out there and judges saying, and they showed their horses. This was a long time ago. And I'm thinking to myself, when I come back from there, I would never show there and I showed outside in Colorado. But this one was horrible. It was horrible. had to have a true mudder I don't know if I got that right or not, but you had to have a true mudder to show in that region that day. ⁓ Crysta Brown: No, no, no. That's amazing. Yeah, but do you think? Yeah. Scott Cooper: like those are memories and like that's what made it accessible for people so Don: Right? Crysta Brown: Like, do you think we're a little spoiled now? Like, do you think it would be healthy for the clubs if we were more willing to show at maybe not the most perfect ground, right? Like, maybe not the most perfect stalls and we were more flexible on facilities? Like, do you think that's part of the problem? Don: It is the problem. mean, if you try to run a show at one of those facilities now, you can count on it not being a good show. And you can count on a lot of people showing up. And so, again, you could still pull off a little backyard show, but it sure isn't much. And the exhibitors just won't. just won't come to that. They'll drive 500 miles and go somewhere inside. Scott Cooper: You guys, I'm the problem. Like, I can think of a couple. No, I just, I literally, I'm like, as we're talking, I'm like, I can think of like two facilities. And I'm like, no, I'm not gonna go there. And now I'm like, you're a terrible person, Scott. You're part of the problem. So you know what? I'm gonna resolve that. I'm gonna go show those facilities again. Crysta Brown: You are a princess. Don: Right? Right. So so then there's a couple other things that have also affected this. ⁓ The world shows ⁓ now line up across the summer. I mean, there is a world show. You get to June, there's a world show of some sort running for the next three months. Right? Crysta Brown: Right. Scott Cooper: All right. ⁓ my god. It's insane and people will go to all three months of it. Like it's wild. Crysta Brown: Yeah. Don: Yeah, but the bottom line is when you try as a club, try to run, especially the Northern Tier clubs, try to run horse shows in that time frame. They're stuck. They're up against world shows all over the place or people traveling to or from. so that's kind of a messy deal. So then they have to back up into the marches and the April in the North country. don't know what Scott Cooper: Mm-hmm. Crysta Brown: Hmm. Don: What the what the you may have an indoor arena, but it may be snowing. Scott Cooper: Exactly. Right. Right. You may not be able to get there because there's a blizzard and like you can't get the trailer out and it's April. I'm talking at you Minnesota. You know what I'm talking about. Crysta Brown: Such a good point. Yeah. Don: Yeah. And nobody wants to go there because they don't want to get caught on the road. So that's the other, as the world shows moved and lined up across the summer, that's another hindrance to the smaller northern clubs. The southern clubs can run those winter shows and get away with it. What are they going to run into? A little bit of rain or something. Scott Cooper: Mm-hmm. Crysta Brown: such a point. Scott Cooper: Yeah. Don: ⁓ They're not going to run into a road closed. Crysta Brown: Right. Right. Well, I so appreciate your thoughts. I think you have a way of offering a, an often missed perspective. Like I think you can kind of look back and see like how we got to the place that we are, which like I found really helpful as I've started to kind of think about getting involved in things or, know, I'd really like to see this change or that change, but I appreciate the way you kind of make me think sometimes, sometimes. Don: Right, right. Scott Cooper: I appreciate the way you make her think too, Don, by the way. Like, please keep her in check. She is feral. Crysta Brown: Oh my gosh. Okay. But before we wrap our time with you, is there anything you really want to speak to the exhibitor? Right? When you're a judge, you don't get to say a whole lot. Is there anything that you're like, you know what? I wish I could tell them all blank. Don: All right. Yeah, I mean, we've already used the statement and I, and it is a serious one for me. It is ride the horse you brought, not the one you want. And the bottom line is you will see them come to a horse show and you will see them ask just too much. And what they end up with is a huge wreck. And in their mind, they may think they're getting away with that, but I'm going, you know, if you'd have just not pushed quite that hard, right? If you'd have just rode what you needed. And where I'm starting to see it happen a lot now is in the ranch. They'll push and there comes that one front leg, that one front leg that goes, and it sticks out there. You know, that's that half lope stride, right? And if we're trotting and they were trying to get that big extension and they push that thing, just that. just a little bit too much that one leg sticks out there, it's penalty one. It's that quick. ⁓ ⁓ go, well, you maybe asked a little too much, minus half too. How about that? Right? ⁓ they'll ⁓ coming out of the extended ⁓ than make that transition down to ⁓ lope to ⁓ lope. Crysta Brown: ⁓ huh. Scott Cooper: Mm-hmm. Don: They want to make that big transition all at once. Hey, it takes a couple strides. And so what they'll do is they'll just pick up just a little too much and those hind legs come together in the back end or you get that double trot step at behind, penalty three. What are you going to do? You just broke, you know? I mean, so really ⁓ in the ranch thing, that's where I'm beginning to see it. And it really needs to be those transitions need to Crysta Brown: Yeah. Don: be neat and nice and they take a couple strides to occur. So if you try to crack it off in one stride, you're looking for trouble. And if your horse can do it, great for you. If they can't, be careful. You know what you're riding. You know what you can ask. Right, Scott? Right? Scott Cooper: That's such great advice. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And like that can apply to your practice at home. That can apply when you're at a show. Like you don't have to go be Aaron Moses on whatever new crazy pleasure horse he has. You can just be yourself and be with your horse and ride what you have and be grateful for it. Don: Yeah, what we do with the ranch horses now is transitions, transitions, transitions, transitions. We know what we got in between them. Those transitions are the most important because you really demonstrate the change in gait. And that's the most important thing, whether it's a walk ⁓ to a lope or whatever it is. That's literally what we work on most of the time. Crysta Brown: Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Don: is those transitions to be neat and nice and I can look at them and go, yep, right on the money. You know, because we trained them up that way. Crysta Brown: Absolutely. I actually think that I lied and I want to ask you one more thing, but it's something that I'm kind of partial to because, ⁓ not to be sappy, but I think you were one of the first individuals in my life that really showed belief in my ability to become a professional and like be a horse trainer. And that meant a lot to me. And I don't think I would be here if you hadn't done that. ⁓ Don: Okay. Crysta Brown: But could you maybe speak to, do you feel like we need more individuals to step into professional roles, be it judging, training? Like how do you see that? And like, why do you feel like someone who maybe doesn't look like a horse trainer right now could become one? Don: Yeah, well, ⁓ you know, it's really that deciding to be a horse trainer is really a very personal decision. Are you prepared for it? That's really the question you have to ask yourself. Are you prepared for that work, that opportunity, and to step out there and not stop? ⁓ And sometimes people, you know, they ask me, I've heard this question a lot, actually. I said, are you ready? Are you ready to make that commitment to train? Because once you step in, you cannot slow down. If you slow down, you step back from it, you will break your deal. ⁓ And so I think that's just really a very personal decision. And people ask me questions, and you did too, and what I think about that, and the effort it takes. Do you really, I remember asking you, do you really want to be an amateur or do you want to be a trainer? Right? You got, you got, that's very personal. And, and so, I've seen people step into training where they couldn't take themselves beyond a horse. They could train one up and they could get that job done, but they couldn't get the second one loaded up behind it. And then two and then three. Crysta Brown: Remember that too. Yep. Hmm. Don: and then four and then five. and you know, there's so much of the business that's in the numbers. If you watch some of these folks that are really, really good at what they're doing, not only do they have assistance, but they have numbers. And, and you know, there's, if you stay below a certain number, you're surely going to lose your ass in that job, right? Because you can't pay for everything and you don't get enough money to eat, right? Crysta Brown: Ha Don: And then there's that that middle where you bounce. I always look at it like that you bounce in survival Yeah, I can make this work and and and yeah, I get to eat How can I pay for another new truck and another trailer? That's a little bigger and you know you start asking yourself those questions then Some of the guys get to that point where you know I don't know maybe they have 40 50 head of horses standing at the place Is that the right number it probably is it truly is the right number? But then can you do that alone? Absolutely not. So then you get your assistance and you start to make all that work. ⁓ horse training is a tough business. There's no easy way in. Once you're there, it's hard business all the way. And really ⁓ your financial knowledge, you got to take that in with you too. So there's a lot of parts and pieces. in in do I decide to train and how how do I do that and I think Crysta you with your podcast stuff and your horsemanship stuff, it's just another angle to bring all the pieces together. And some people don't do it that way that there is just strictly training horses. I mean, there's people out there now that that aren't even training for the public. They're training horses for sale. So there's several different angles in the business. But you got to pick the right one for you and the right pieces that make it all come together and make it survivable. Because truly, in the horse business, you have to say, can I survive this? That's the bottom line. And be happy while I'm doing it. Crysta Brown: Absolutely. Scott Cooper: And as an amateur, I say you're welcome for having all my money. You guys are so welcome that we spend every dime that we make to you. Don: Yes. Yeah. And people that are in love with it, that's great. You know, there's great clients out there. They're just absolutely in love with it and they will start. It's a disease, right? It's better than some of the other stuff you can get involved with by a long ways. I remember a long time ago I had a client, he was an airline pilot for United. Crysta Brown: Absolutely. Scott Cooper: Yeah. It's a mental illness, It's a mental illness. Crysta Brown: Ugh. ⁓ Scott Cooper: ⁓ That's true. Don: And he came to me and he'd been to the horse show with these girls, a couple of young girls, a couple of times and he says, he said, what do you think? He says, I'm really interested in this. And I says, well, here's the deal with your children. I said, in my opinion, you can pick where they go or you can turn them loose and see where they go. And if you pick horses, it's a wonderful environment. And they will find a whole new family. And I said, you will have directed that. If you just put them out the front door and let them find their own friends, I don't know what you end up with. So it's truly, ⁓ for the youth coming in, it's a parental decision for them to spend a lot of money to direct their child in a very positive way. Crysta Brown: I can agree more. Scott Cooper: Yeah, I mean, I make jokes about it, but like, horse people are my community. Like, this is where I've made my best friends and I will never want to leave it, ever. Don: Bye. It is. All right. Yeah, people say, where are your friends at? I said, they're all over the country. Literally all over the country. Yes, in other countries as well, you know. Scott Cooper: Mm-hmm. Crysta Brown: And in other countries. ⁓ gosh. Well guys, I don't know if we could leave it in a better spot. I think this horse community is so special. Never in my life did I think that an old man would be one of my best friends, but here we are. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Scott Cooper: ⁓ Don: There go. There we go. Yeah. Yeah, I always say Vivian's old, not me. Scott Cooper: And then there's Don. Crysta Brown: That's horrible. Don: I know it. And she looks at me and that's what she's thinking. Crysta Brown: we'll leave you guys with that. ⁓ guys, just remember that you can't be all of the good that the horse show world needs, but the horse show world needs all of the good that you can do. And until next time, ⁓ Don: All right. Scott Cooper: Thanks, Don.