SEBA: Welcome to the Evolving Behavior Analyst, where science meets practice and today's practitioners shape the future of the field. Brought to you by SIBA, unifying minds, elevating practice, and expanding impact. Jake: Well, hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of the Evolving Behavior Analyst. This is your host, Dr. Jake Pazen, your local neighborhood friendly professor, turned OBM and obesity specialist. I'm joined by our illustrious co-hosts, Diana Lees and Dr. Scott O'Donnell. Di-Anne Elise: Hello, I'm Deanna Lise and I'm an OBN specialist, and I'm also an infant and toddler developmental specialist. Welcome everyone. Scott O: And I'm doc and I'm Doctor Scott and when I see something interesting I drop everything else and study it. Jake: And we are joined today by Matt Heininger, who is here to talk to us about his experience in both the ABA world as a health and wellness coach and performance management and sports pro with some really cool things. So Matt, we've been training each other on the podcast for a while. We've had some scheduling hiccups, but we're really excited to have you. So why don't you start off by telling us a little bit about yourself, how you got involved in ABA, and kind of what's been the journey to go from you know working as kind of a a typical BCBA for autism intervention to what you're doing now? Matt Heininger: Yeah, no, absolutely. It's it has been quite the journey. and I've I've shared some discussions with Scott before on this, my journey is more on the non-traditional route. My education was initially in clinical psychology with an emphasis in sports psychology. and initially it was to go the distance, go the doctoral route. at the time, sports psychology was kind of in the same infant sort of cusp as our sort of health sports and fitness subspecialty in ABA. and I was also burned out. So you know, looks good on a resume working with kids for whatever might happen. One thing led to another. I drank the Kool-Aid of ABA. I had gotten initial exposure to it in my abnormal psych class as an undergrad. and it just made most sense. I've always been keen on numbers and data. so I just really liked the scientific approach, its framework, it made more sense to me. so after about a year to eighteen months just working as a technician, I went back to school to fulfill all coursework requirements and then hopefully Well, I mean, there's nothing wrong with ABA and its prevalence in autism care. but yeah, ended up just doing the traditional working with children with related developmental disorders, autism, and just kind of putting on the practicing hat. All the while though, you know, there were always aspects and considerations to other disciplines. nutrition, just behavioral medicine. and then I believe it was at our California State Conference, which is where I reside in the state, Team ABA had a kind of this is who we are type of talk, a smile and a handshake, a couple of just projects and and research plans has turned into formal employment after time flies, three and a half, four four and a half years. And so now we get to, you know, one of our service lines is sort of maring together, you know, ABA and its application with the neurodiverse autism and developmental. the disabled population, and then being able to cross-consult with you know fitness trainers, certified personal trainers, nutritionists, dietitians, to provide wellness services to those funded through regional center. we also have a sports division as well that I say to Kirk Kirby, who's the managing director, I'm an honorary consultant on where I do a lot of like ACT relational framework mapping with some of the athletes in intake. and collaborating with the precision teaching coaches in that division and continuing to grow, flourish, consult with organizations, as well as private clientele as well. Jake: So, okay, there's there's a lot to unpack there, and I'm just as someone who also works in the health and wellness space, I'm I I wanna dig in a bit more here. So what how how did you make the jump from autism intervention to you know working specifically with athletes and doing athletic performance? You know, you you have this background in wanting to do you know sports psychology, but but how did you make that jump professional? Because you it it's it's easy to find a job as a BCBA for autism intervention. jobs in in sports performance, much more difficult to come by. What was that journey like? Matt Heininger: it's been an arduous and exhaustive one, certainly to say the least. I think by way of scope and discipline, I never stopped. I I've said this metaphorically. I I would wear the skin of the discipline that I practice now, but you know, whether it was at clinic or in-home services, put on the kind of autism hat, right? Like I can't step on Scotty's toes. He's got every ABA hat in the book. And ABA is my worldview. But I'm sure if you can kind of catch the drift. As far as the sort of pivot as far as viable opportunities to, you know, afford a living doing this. it's been a myriad of personal connections that I had prior to Team ABA, as well as just a lot of the great work of Kirk Kirby. I also want to give a huge shout out to Wesley Lowry, who was with Team ABA for a long time, kind of opening the doors, increasing the wheel for me to just, you know, dare I say, sports reference slam dunk and be able to sort of secure that clientele. so I had previously studied and examined performance under pressure. at College of the Canyons, which is a local junior college out in my neck of the woods. and then also working with Cal State University Seesa's basketball program. And while it was a sports psychology study, it was a lot of conditional discrimination type of work. And so yeah, just being able to have it become a full circle moment, reconnecting to those individuals, though they aren't formal clients, and the referral base that, you know, has come to be what team ABA is now. Jake: I was at the right place at the right time, I spoke to Matt Heininger: for sure. Jake: the right people. which I which is, I don't say I can say the exact same thing from my experience. It was just I was at the right conference, I saw the right people, I said the right things, and was able to kind of weasel my way in and kind of slide into into that position. But I I'm really kind of curious, you said something that I really I thought was really, really profound. There's that you put your autism hat on, or you you and then you take it off for other things. How do you suggest individually? Who maybe want to go into health psych or go into behavior analysis in the wellness space, how do they develop those skills to really translate what they do in autism intervention but to something like this? You know, how do how do they transform essentially that autism hat into a health and wellness hat? Matt Heininger: Absolutely. That's a great question. I think there's sort of two prongs. You know, I've heard this from Silicon Valley. when you're doing something innovative, your network immediately appears. And so I think that, you know, as salient as Team ABA is, whether it's practitioner by practitioner, or whether it's just the entity. there is now this kind of cuspel experience where it's easier for us because there have been so many people, whether it's a funding source itself or a series of practitioners that have been waiting, to sort of be a part of wellness-based ABA, whether it's, you know, learning various integrative interventions or just finding opportunities in general. I think, you know, some imparting wisdom that I would tell any BCBA and some that I have already is, If the literature isn't there, it doesn't mean we need to stop. Right. there's a fine line between, you know, being negligent and unethical with being way beyond scope versus the beauty of scientific advancement, which is exploration leading into replication. And I think there's been such a wealth of literature, in the autism realm that a lot of BCBAs just think, well, if it's not there, it's beyond my scope. and it's this kind of reductive generalization that a lot of them make. at Team ABA, like we have a one of our studies that are is in publication that I'm sure we'll get to. And then some other ideas where, Dr. Maggie Pavone, some of the other doctoral level practitioners that are sort of connected to team ABA, it's like it's not in existence, but let's make it work. How do we, you know, operationalize some of this literature from the you know Journal of Behavioral Medicine out of Australia? You know, that's the closest thing to what we want to examine. And so, you know, being open to be adjacent. to your sort of current scope, you know, while also, you know, being the scientist that, you know, we all wanna be, first and foremost, leading into the practice. Jake: I mean it's such a great point, because I I hear so many people say, you know, I can't do this, it's not in my scope of competence. And I'm sitting there going, but it is though. You know, you might not have the technological piece here, but you understand the science of behavior, and you understand that piece. And we can translate this research through our idiom, through our lens. And there's nothing wrong with doing that. You know, that that's part of what science is, is taking what works and making it fit within our context, which is so important. And that's not to say that you should we should just all just go hang our own shingle without supervision, but but we can be innovative as a science and that's not a bad thing. Matt Heininger: Yeah, no, very much so. want to be tactful with what I'm about to say. but I think i to embody the worldview of a behavior analyst and a behavior scientist kind of creates a distinction of those that understand that, you know, versus those that don't, with all due respect. I've come across many B C BAs that just by trade are really good with what they do. it does take, a sort of worldview of ABA to be able to see its application, whether it's, at a restaurant and just seeing the operations of the restaurant and, its chaining of events and, all the system flows, and that but that that being said, sampling the experience for any B C B A. I was daunted initially, kind of tangenting out of autism care. but it it's not easier said than done, but it's not as daunting as you'd seem. So I highly encourage anybody that is, open to learning about this. There, there's a wealth of resources. We all know this, right? Dr. Ray Miltenberger out of University of South Florida has been doing this for 30 years. we've been here, it's in existence, you know, all that. Di-Anne Elise: Right. Scott O: Well his his grad students have been doing it, Matt, haven't they? I'm not sure if he's been doing it, but it's he's definitely got a lot of grad students doing doing work in sports. His name has definitely been on a lot of stuff. Matt Heininger: No, that's yes, you're right. You're right, you're right. Yeah. Eber the pragmatist. I appreciate the correction, Scotty. Di-Anne Elise: Well, I we've def I definitely looked you up and and saw you have a very impressive resume and experience in most of your jobs have been like an assistant regional director, and of course now CEO. do you think that that experience that you had in those roles and also being a BCBA has helped you, you know, to where you are today? Matt Heininger: very much so on the when it comes to interpersonal relations, we all have our history, in our respective careers here. and Di-Anne Elise: First. Matt Heininger: so, we have to protect our non-negotiables and everybody has so many different languages of their respective discipline. being able to manage teams or to just, have enough grounds under your belt with, interdisciplinary work. I'd I'd be remiss if that didn't occasion some of my success early on. And I've pondered too, Dean. Di-Anne Elise: Okay. Matt Heininger: had gotten into this earlier, would it we be as successful? I am Mr. Trial and Error. We we we all ride by the seat of our pants, sometimes. so but yeah, I I I definitely think it has. And I also, being able to hear the stories of each individual client that I've treated, through an autism, lens, Di-Anne Elise: But yeah. Matt Heininger: and, what has been tried? what are the motivations, the establishing operation of many parents, who want more of an integrative practice, who want to account for, blood work, what they eat. we can all work together in the sandbox. and I think being able to learn the buy-in or how to garner the reception of somebody to take nutrition, ABA, health aspects, doctoral level recommendations, and tailor each of it into a a sort of treatment package in totality. I learned that definitely along the way in autism care and and certainly shaped by my time and team ABA thus far. Di-Anne Elise: Yeah, absolutely. And it's interesting that you say that because I do work, obviously I work in a clinic right now and it's a large, pretty much a large company, a corporation is nationwide, but this will be the first clinic here in ABA clinic, I'm gonna say in our in Orlando or Florida, what I'm seeing a lot, and I it my background is in marketing, public relations, business development before I came to to behavioral analysis. and I'm seeing a lot that if you if you don't have that background, it's really hard to transfer from, ABA to let's say OBM. I get so many people asking me that question. How do you transfer it? Well, it's just basically adjusting your brain, like you said. Like you really have to be open and and harvesting all those disciplines and then making a task analysis of Matt Heininger: Yeah. Di-Anne Elise: what you can do. Because really and truly, I mean, also I I'm an infinite talent development specialist and that has opened my my perspective about things because I'm a problem solver for families now. You know, so so now I can't just see ABA. I have to also see, okay, so let me see the family as a whole. so yes, and and it is a difficult question to answer with somebody that has never really been or worked outside of ABA. And that's what I my experience. Matt Heininger: Yeah. I very much subscribe to that. it's a backward design, right? Like you have to understand the nuclear the network that you need to account for, and then you kind of stepping stone backward into here now. it helps with programming, adherence to various treatment tactics. we have a a partner, Natalie Cameron, who was our first Individual under professional development that got all of her hours with us. and she came from sales and marketing too. And I she it's as anecdotal as this is, early on, she would account for her sort of success or some of her outcomes associated with managing teams and blending together the personal biases that we non-consciously or consciously assert into a context when making decisions, as much as just, the professional, skill sets, so then we get into performance diagnostics, how can we make sure that, somebody who takes this, just as a job, as a home administrator, as a residential facility, resonates with the ideas as much as the consumer themselves, or some of the other, members of the disciplinary team. so you know, I really like the sort of medley of experience. I think it I think it bodes wonders. Di-Anne Elise: Yeah, I th I think also an entrepreneurial mind also helps really. I mean I'm on entrepreneurial, I have several businesses, even coaching, pageantry, believe it or not. And I use ABA. I love it. I I love doing that. that's one thing that I am gonna tell a lot of people when they ask me, Hey, how do how do I transfer? Well, you have to have an open mind. You have to make sure that you understand other disciplines, that you can work and collaborate with them Matt Heininger: Yeah. Di-Anne Elise: also because that's something that I do in infant and toddler development specialist. I have to pretty much collaborate with, physical therapists and, occupational therapists, and and physical therapists. And I really need to do that. And ABA, unfortunately, we don't do that enough. We don't collaborate with anyone. and maybe we should. We start, and even mental health counselors, we should actually do that also. just so we can, expand our our horizons, expand the ABA as a whole. Matt Heininger: yeah, no, very much. I I fully agree with you across the board. I think, one thing I I did want to mention and to your point is, if you build it, they will come. You know, that's a I think that's a field of dreams reference. Look Di-Anne Elise: Mm, yeah. Matt Heininger: at me. I'm right. I'm I'm trying to be the sport guy here. but there is an entrepreneurial spirit. And of the individuals that have reached out, hey, how do I sort of break in? I'm sure you guys all know Dr. G Nick Green, you know, he's been doing behavior fit for a long time. so we're all kind of flying under the radar Scott O: Mallory Quinn. Matt Heininger: because there's such a proportioned sort of media share and dominance on autism. and all of them do have the entrepreneurial spirit. but as it said, from coaching to counseling, being able to adopt an ABA-based framework, you know, there's private clients that, secure. So it's just about getting out there. Di-Anne Elise: Yeah, absolutely. Jake: I also think it was really interesting, you you mentioned about what needing to play, you know, play nice in the sandbox, essentially. Matt Heininger: Yes. Jake: And I think what we forget is that behavior is behavior is behavior, it doesn't matter the context, the rules stay the same. And that Matt Heininger: Yes. Jake: political behavior in that context is just really, really complex verbal behavior. We know how to shape verbal behavior. Matt Heininger: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. It's yeah, political behavior. Scott O: you were we were talking before a little bit about the right place and the right time, and I just wanna bring you back to a place in time this year, May twenty-third, twenty twenty six. Me and you and Kirk Kirby were on a panel at ABAI, Matt Heininger: We were. Scott O: we had a good amount of people for us, which is half a room for people. And that was an international conference. My question to you and I'll follow up with the right place at the right time, that room, that half filled room at the international conference, is that a good thing or a bad thing? Matt Heininger: I wasn't expecting that question. It's a good thing. And I mean, I'm coming from the place of any time slot before lunch is usually crickets to an extent. so I was expecting like a third. So it met my expectations. I think it was Nitske who said, if you can't understand a man, look at his outcomes and infer motive. anybody wanna substantiate that? Scott O: Mm I Jake wants to substantiate that. Yeah. Matt Heininger: Yep. I I I I I I yeah and and and and you know the reason is to why Jake: I can lo I can look it up 'cause how did you know that I absolutely despise Nietzsche Matt Heininger: there's a part of me I think the way we curate conferences could be better. you know, we're a young science, so I understand having to shed a spotlight. on other subspecialties. I'm glad to see there were a few HSF talks at the international conference. And I know that there's, a wider breadth of talks at an ABAI than, a state conference. so, I think inherently an emotional response is elicited when you're so passionate about something. so I want packed houses because, we can facilitate developmental milestones all that we want, but if I were to whittle down team ABA to one sentence, it's quality of life. even with athletes. understanding to map directional values and a trajectory of their career that's performance based but also doesn't define them. with the individuals that we work with, through regional center, it really is extending life expectancy. And life is precious enough to where I I'd like to hope one day that, health, wellness. is mutually intertwined as far as ABA being instrumental to the development and maintenance of of the human condition. Scott O: Hm. Fast forward maybe a couple hours after that, I walk into a bar with Peter Colleen of all people, and find you Matt Heininger: Yep, nobody knew. Scott O: sitting there find you sitting there with with Kirk. And after, you know, I had a chat with Doctor Colleen, I sat down with you guys and we had a conversation that kinda went like this. We talk we were talking to Kirk and and Kirk was saying, you know, there's few people who really know how to do this, who really know how to do behavior analysis in sports. And like and three of them were sitting at the table and we were saying there's not a whole lot of others. There's a lot of people who want to break into it who are interested in doing it, but there's not a lot of people who really can do it. I got my the I got my knowledge of ABA and sports because I was lucky to have, you know, Antonio Harrison as a professor during my masters and then I switched to that research during my doctorate. And like part of the reason why I was able to do it is because during my doctorate I just had to Apply behavior analysis everywhere. I just had to apply it in a lot of different places. There was a point where I was giving a presentation to people and and I was talking about behavior analysis in sports, and they said, and this these were doctoral students, and they said, I didn't even know you could use it for that. Right? how many of us in the world? Do you think there are? We were talking about there's few people that can really do this well. How many in the world? Matt Heininger: I'd I'd have to say under 20, 20 to 25. and that's me, yeah. Scott O: Yeah. Hmm. That high. I was gonna go fifty, but yeah, I agree with you. I think under a hundred, right? Certainly. Certainly. And like the funny thing is that we are talking the reason why Matt Heininger: Yeah, absolutely. Scott O: I I'm bringing this up is like I get it, we can apply these methods everywhere, right? But that wasn't apparent and there's I guess a certain skill set that we determined was a criteria for us. Right, at Matt Heininger: Yes. Scott O: that table, like that we could do it. I'm just wondering, any insight into that skill set? 'Cause we were discriminative. We like were able to say, Yeah, there's not a lot of other pe people who could do this, you know, and there's three of us sitting at a table. like what is it? What was I cr our criteria? How did we know that someone could do behavioral analysis in sports or someone couldn't? Matt Heininger: in July I had there is a sports medicine summer series that is associated with the summer league for the National Basketball Association, and it's a very small knit group of strength and training coaches, personal trainers, physical like rehabilitative specialists. across all key sports, there is baseball, hockey, basketball. and and I kind of tangent here in meeting a few of them, they're behaviorists without them knowing it. so when you look at, what would be successive training for us, they call constraint-based learning. then there's explorative movement learning, which for us would be, you know, simultaneous discrimination training. Right. So when they talk about a living organism moving in space and time in relation to other stimuli, and how that shapes their approach, whether it is in the training room to then live in on the court. And so, I had pondered, as discriminative as our history is, are there others out there that, have been trained in another discipline, but have the sort of you know, foundational understanding and principles of Scott O: Hmm. Matt Heininger: the science of behavior analysis, Scott O: Yeah. of course they're doing things that that work, so it wouldn't shouldn't surprise us that they might be dipping into our bag of tricks. many of us have worked with athletes individually, and you've worked with ath athletes individually too. but with OBM and our technology of teaching and everything, we could work with a team top down to top up, but we could work with the coaches, we could work with the front office, and we could work with the players. But where do you see the industry moving? Do you see it moving more towards working with individual athletes or do you see it expanding to working with entire teams? Matt Heininger: Yeah, I I I do see us leaning more into continued single subject experimentation and you know designing our interventions from there. I think there is a seat at the table working in conjunction with sports psychologists. And, dare I say we can even help them track some inner behaviors, but how the competing contingencies influence their encore performance. Performance. I see that I see that certainly being a thing. I was working with a a youth athlete who had a lot of anxiety. and so we were working on acceptance and commitment therapy, we're helping him regulate baseball was his sport. and so we were able to create certain mental checklists to assist with his mental state. And then, from there his batting average did get better. So there were some component and composite skills, whether it was his individual performance or his can his performance in context to just the team, defensively specifically. So there's a seat at the table, I think I see it being more individual athlete at first. We've had a couple of pitch meetings with the National. National Basketball Association, and they have every analytical dashboard that they are biblically married to. So I see that being static currently, just culturally, within sort of sports management. So I see, a big thing to Deanne's point is, like just get your foot the door, right? And as behavior analysts, we can be, extinction induced variability. We will look to be the problem solvers to make it work. And having that openness to, to be the behavior scientist with what you have and the opportunity given, rather than just, attempting to, press a approach that, may not land per the audience. Scott O: all right, so my last serious question for you, and then I'm gonna give you, you know, a curveball. But my last serious question to you is this. Matt Heininger: Yes. Scott O: What is what is behavior analysis in sports, and what isn't sports behavior analysis? More specifically, what isn't sports behavior analysis? Matt Heininger: What isn't? That's a great question. I think, through a practical lens, I think what sports behavior anal analysis isn't is working to track some of the inner behaviors. now I think for us it is. But I think culturally in its application, it isn't. and I think a lot of that is due to the dominance of sports psychologists, sports counselors. we do have to understand, and as somebody who initially was in sports psychology, they are now at their viral stride and peak as far as no pun intended. Because I do like peak as an assessment. I know you do too, Scott. but Scott O: Mm. Matt Heininger: as far as mental health coaches, sports psychologists. So is there a readiness For one to understand there's another discipline that you know can track inner behaviors and how it might correlate with on court, on field, gridiron performance. I don't think the readiness is there at this time. We have been shaped by that too. so we have learned that, our chair is right here. it is with precision teaching. we have a game speed model that we are Proposing to other teams, one that works with the AAU athletes that are currently under coaching with us. I think what sports behavior analyst is. It is the observable, it is the objective, it is being the functional context analyst that a lot of BCBAs can be. they just need to rid the fearlessness to be able to, work under the tutelage and mentorship, of some of the 50 or 25 in the field to be able to, plant their seedlings and grow. The scope of their competence, to which I'm sure Scott, you can attest to this. Like, I'm starving to help, you know, create other practitioners. once again, it's not daunting. I remember being pretty shook and nervous just to reach out to Kirk Kirby as I was with other individuals that I've reached out to. but there's such a willingness to help. yeah, I'd like to think that we're functional contextualists. Scott O: It's true. It's it's true. I I tell my I tell my students that That like they can email the person on the article. That person will get back to him. And I tell him, and I'm teaching the EAB course right now, and we have Catania learning, and I'm like, you could email Catania and talk to him. Don't do it because he's a crouchity old man. And like last time I did it, he gave me homework, which I really didn't like and I didn't feel like doing any more homework. But like and it was a sports question too. here's it here's the curveball question for you. Okay. Matt Heininger: Yeah. Scott O: Behavior analysis has a new technology. It's really useful. What does Matt Heininger: Okay. Scott O: it do? Matt Heininger: What would I like it to do? I I would like for technology to allow based off of intake information or based off of performance history being able to guide athletes in a way to adopt strategies that are rooted in ABA and destigmatize their willingness to accept help. Scott O: So like a destigmatizer, that would be awesome. You just point it right at Matt Heininger: Yeah. I mean you'd y Scott O: and you press a button and they are destigmatized to ABA and willing to be open minded to like, wow, it'd be science of Matt Heininger: Yeah. Scott O: behavior that can help me get to become a better athlete. Matt Heininger: Yeah, if this is if this is the Houdini magic wand, yes, I want fairy dust, I want three times counterclockwise, I want a button. Scott O: Yes. Matt Heininger: but speaking of the sandbox and our history of just being atrocious in it, there are huge ego clashes. You know, there are some athletes, that or there's they're big on feel. They're big on feel. Right. And a lot Scott O: Mm-hmm. Matt Heininger: of this is their own ritualistic behaviors, which I'm sure we will sleuth down to with the time that we have remaining. So, they're big on feel. And from those that I know in sports psychology or just the time spent with Team ABA and the athletes that we we coach, there's a lot of okay, tell me is my swing, is my jump s shot like off. And then some of them kind of want to, you know, deduce and experiment. themselves to which we're more coaching. And then there are others that want to be way referential to the data, they want to be nosed to the sort of proverbial grindstone, and they almost kind of want to be trained to then be independent, through ABA to be more fluent. ABA is a world changing science, but I think sometimes as a practitioner, me to date, you can't change the world right now. You can't change the world with this person because they are they just want this. We know the potency if we give them the entirety of, you know, what we're looking to recommend, but they just want this. Okay, let's just let's just give them this. Despite the fact that in theory, a Minor increase in performance is is worth millions of dollars contractually. It honestly is. batting 238 to 242 is probably an extra two to five million dollars a year for, your typical baseball player. okay, maybe not that far, but you get what I mean. and sometimes the data is very telling that, in theory and more in basketball with team ABA, in practice, if they were to adopt all of this, it could be you to contact a greater recruiting pool and having eyes on you as you look to go, D1. but you have to meet them halfway. And I think that's been a huge learning lesson for Team ABA. And I know that that is a huge pain point for B C BAs just generally, whether it's autism care, OBM, you know, when the light bulb goes off and and and we see with such vivid color as behavior scientists, you sometimes lose that grasp. And then you lose your audience, and then you have the athlete that, once again, full circle, stigmatized. I'm okay, I'm just gonna kind of do my own thing. Scott O: Before the before the other sharks get you again, I just got one last question. 'Cause I Personally I have like, you know, been running into athletes. When I work with athletes, I am working with them on something else besides their game, which I'm like, you know, hey, I can help you with your game, but maybe it is, you know, the mental health issues that they're having, performance anxiety or something like that, or even yes. Matt Heininger: Yes. Scott O: is is that what you're experiencing too? 'Cause I feel like we could use behavior analysis to make them better as sports, but then I have these athletes coming to me for other things. Matt Heininger: Yeah, no and and I I I think once again embracing the entrepreneurial spirit, it takes one client That is under the tutelage of a Dr. Scott O'Donnell or, Matt Heininger and Kirk Kirby. and they make it whatever that looks like, pros, full scholarship to a D one university, tout what they learned, and all of a sudden a network starts to emerge of other opportunities. I think at the pro level, it's all sports psychologists. I mean Team ABA works on the YPS. we have a client specifically, Kendall Samuel Rydnack, who's in our sports division. I think you got to meet Kendall, Scott. but she works with somebody Scott O: Yep. I did meet candle. Matt Heininger: who working on performance anxiety, working on the yips, just acceptance and commitment therapy. I think sports management as an operation piece culturally guys well that's that's what sports psychologists do. so we're speaking the same language by function, I think by form and by approach is where there's sometimes a pitfall and disconnect. Scott O: Hm. Thanks. Jake: Okay, so that leads me to a part which is I wanna make sure that our listeners understand the distinction. What is the difference between, say, a sports psychologist and what they do as compared to what you do as a sports behavior analyst, as it were? Matt Heininger: Yeah, of course, of course. so sports psychologists tend to lean on interviews, a lot of liquor scales, other like just battery of assessment tools. they're big on personality characteristics. So there's a lot of personality scales and inventories that kind of you know clump them into a category. and while we do operationalize some of that, like there's a I'm not gonna botch this. A sports Mental anxiety performance scale, I believe, is what it is. You know, and there's a few items that we take and contextualize into some of our motivational interviewing. And one of the items is, I tend to get discouraged in the light of failure, something like that sort of verbatim. So, they'll take that as a sort of personality trait. and and sports psychologists don't assume that. That personality trait is static. they might do observations a little bit, but otherwise, it is it is all self-directed by the athlete. So what they want to talk about is what they want to talk about. It can be off-field, it can be on field. sports behavior analysts, their funnel will always lead to what's on the field, what's on the court, what's on the gridiron. know we can look at some off-the-field stressors, you know, we can look as to how that align with values, the direction of the value. A huge example that we I I talk about often at Team AVA through a sports lens is is Mike Rendone for the Angels. just kind of quick little background he was a part of a World Series team with the Washington Nationals in 2019. He was a free agent he signed with the Anaheim Angels and he proceeded to Be injured, make very dismissive comments about baseball isn't his life, and is probably turned into the biggest like contractual busts, you know, sort of all of all time. a sports psychologist would work through that and look at the sort of person as a whole and cross-communicate, whereas the behavior analyst, the sport behavior analyst would do that, but look to discern how that then influences performance on the field. So we are all about the Jake: I got it. Matt Heininger: observable. I mean, we do FBAs, we do ABC narrative recording, we look at we observe, we look at game film, and then we then look at what are the antecedents, what are the contexts, what are the sort of readiness skills, and then how do we shape that using differential reinforcement, precision teaching, these are all terms, strategies, principles. any B C B A should understand and and so it we're not reinventing the wheel too much. It's just a different discipline and we're a little bit more integrative into receiving literature or strategies from others, operationalizing it and then collaborating. Jake: I I think it's kind of what Scott was trying to get at earlier with his with his earlier question about you know, can we integrate ourselves into that space and really focus on those components? Because I don't so I work in OBC medicine and I work specifically with individuals who are either immediately post op a bariatric surgery or they're on GLP1s as a as a Matt Heininger: Yes. Jake: pre as an antecedent surgery before bariatric surgery. And I do the exact same thing where it's a it's a matter of yes, I'm working with counselors, I'm working with other mental health therapists, but I'm looking at it from an operational You're telling me all of these things about the person, cool. But how can I use that as kind of the setting event, essentially, or at least the antecedent conditions, to understand, okay, well, that's the context that they're working in. How do I then work with this person to improve whatever performance space we're looking at, whether that's just be adherence to PT or just getting up and moving more frequently or making better healthy choices with their food decisions, things like that. It it these are not mutually exclusive events that we can work synergistically. In a really meaningful way. Matt Heininger: Yeah. there are clients that we work with where we it's it's merely measurement selection, measuring performance, and then it it's kind of almost like a dropout component analysis where we look at the variability of adherence across each individual intervention. whether it's a GLP one or, you know, a medication or any changes to their sort of routine. And sometimes it's just measurement. and then other times it's far more expansive as well. Di-Anne Elise: I have a question and I know that's tots totally different than everybody else's here, but I I read your you know your resume. I wanna ask you, like you worked in sports, you worked in n in wellness. What other disciplines were did you work at in applied behavioral analysis? Matt Heininger: it's it's sports and autism care and and and and wellness, it it went from sports to autism and related developmental disorders to yeah, sports and and wellness. I I wanna call myself an OBMer, but honestly I'm not. Di-Anne Elise: Well the Scott O: You are. Matt Heininger: Yeah. Di-Anne Elise: he knows you better than I do, but I I read your your whole LinkedIn resume and it looked like OBM to me all around. in which is great. I mean I think that there's nothing wrong with that because you're also integrating, obviously behavioral analysis and your expertise in in in those areas. So I think you're doing a great service to our field, definitely. And we thank you for that. Matt Heininger: Thank you. Yeah, I mean I the the reason why I I'm hesitant to call myself an OBMer is, you know, it's been it's been shaped by trade and by trial and error, mind you. I've read the Aubrey Daniels books, I know Picnic, I know a little bit of Dr. Rodriguez's work with CPOC and but nothing to where I sort of accentuated what I learned, practice, and then feedback. so it probably is lacking mentorship I probably am a little bit more of an OBM or I just don't know it. But thank you. I will I I will take a spot at the table. Di-Anne Elise: Absolutely. Scott O: Alright, so here's a here's another fun question for you. fun as in like, it's a good question. It might make you think a little bit and you might have to ponder this. You get a grant to investigate a sport that you haven't worked in yet. Where you're going? What sport you going to? Matt Heininger: I'm gonna throw a curveball. And it is sport in a performative way, professional wrestling. Scott O: how fun. How fun. And I do consider Matt Heininger: Yeah. Scott O: that to be yeah, no, it's a sport. You're running around, there's a lot of physical activity and stuff like that. Matt Heininger: Yeah. Scott O: also is there's frequent use of steroids Jake: Interesting. Scott O: too in that in that space. Am I correct about that? Like it's like unabashed use of it, you know. I mean the the whole goal is you wanna Matt Heininger: Yeah, yeah. Scott O: look really big and you wanna look like you've roided up. Yeah. Jake: Yeah, you want to look huge, right? 'Cause it's Matt Heininger: Yeah. I I had a very short stint in professional wrestling, believe it not. I don't even think Kirk knows this. yes. Scott O: Do tell, do tell wait, wait, wait, do tell. We it Jake: this this is so juicy. Yo so Tell us everything. I like I am locked in Matt Heininger: Ha. Di-Anne Elise: Ha ha Matt Heininger: Yeah. Jake: now. What? Matt Heininger: Okay. Di-Anne Elise: Well, you know, I thought I was gonna say bowling and I like, no, wait. Hold on. It would Matt Heininger: Yeah, no bowling too. actually b I I I Scott O: Ha ha ha ha. Matt Heininger: could see that I could see ABA and bowling down to a T. Di-Anne Elise: Yeah, too. Yeah. Scott O: Yeah. Matt Heininger: Yeah. so okay, yeah, pro wrestling, here we go. in twenty thirteen I was in a band and some a professional wrestler who I had known happened to be a friend of mine. and so I talked to him. I ended up training at a school out here in like Sherman Oaks, and then proceeded to work a couple of lucha libre events. throughout Southern California in Mexico. And so yeah, I I formally trained. And Scott O: Good. Matt Heininger: then I was like, well, I gotta study for my boards. I am not in good enough shape to be, you know, thrown around at a frame of five foot eight, 150 pounds. so I took about like what was supposed to be like three, four months off and then just never returned. but w if when you look at safety in the ring. like when you get trained, Scott O: Yeah. Matt Heininger: it is there's Scott O: Mm. Matt Heininger: so many other ways that we can risk mitigate and safeguard training to be a professional wrestler through applied behavior analysis, whether it is footwork and running the ropes, whether it is like falling on the mat a certain way. I I hate to put a brooding touch on the podcast, but there are very preventable injuries. That are profound through through ABA. So I'm I would approach it less on the you don't need to take steroids and a deca stack. You can, train and through fitness and nutrition, but honestly, it would be safety. So it'd be, safety skills in the ring and yeah, making sure that, you can engage in the sport or art, whatever you want to you know, label it as, taking care of your health and body. Scott O: What was your name in the ring? Jake: So I Scott O: What was your what was your like wrestling name? Matt Heininger: Your gosh. all right. It was Matthew Scott. Scott O: Okay, okay, okay. Okay. Matt Heininger: My middle name's Scott, so yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Di-Anne Elise: wow. That was a yeah. Scott O: I like it. we find pictures of you Jake: my god. Scott O: on Google? Is that like if we were gonna Matt Heininger: So here's a f here Di-Anne Elise: Wow. Matt Heininger: is a very funny story. A very funny story. I went to this was like the latter end of my time in wrestling, I went to a show and my BCBA supervisor at the time was there. And he like popped his hoodie on and so it was like a I know that you know, but it's fine. And then a few months later, he saw me cause so I worked at a promotion that actually had some TV and like a very small syndicated channel, KDOC. It's a it's a regional channel, and I I he was such a big wrestling fan, he like saw me on TV, and so he was like, my gosh, like And then I was like, God, this is weird. You're my supervisor. But I got promoted thereafter. And so it was like he's actually a dear friend of mine now. so I say that because yes, there probably are Di-Anne Elise: Paid off. Yeah. Matt Heininger: some pictures. If if you must scour the eighth page of Google or YouTube, you might find me somewhere. Just promise me you don't post it on LinkedIn because I I gotta Scott, you're real active on LinkedIn, just like me like me a little bit to where you won't embarrass me. Scott O: I I I w I won't I won't I promise. Di-Anne Elise: post what you post social media. Scott O: I might try to find I might try to look it up though. Matt Heininger: It's all I do to go ahead, go ahead. Scott O: put it in the show notes too. We might put it in the show notes too. Di-Anne Elise: Yeah. Matt Heininger: I'm I'm all for it. I take it and destroy it. How much for the research grant though? I'd I'd if I d you're not ticing my brain now. Scott O: I don't you know, I I was just gonna see what sport you were gonna go to. I mean one you know, I and I if I was gonna ask myself that question, actually I esports is is like a really growing industry, you know, and I feel like behavior analysis can do a lot there. And I know people talk about it already and I heard some people talking about it on a on another pod I was listening to, you know, and I was like, that's that's really cool and then like, you know, they took it further than I thought and I was like, Maybe someone else is gonna take it further than they thought you know, and start looking at response rate and reinforcement rate. rate and stuff like that and kind of predicting like you know when reinforcement schedules thin for people and when they might get frustrated and I think that would probably be like a really good you know indicator. But they were talking about like communication between teammates which is really important when you're playing online together and you're all spawning at a different place and this guy this guy gets killed it's like but you know you could get pissed off that you get killed but are you communicating that with your teammate where you got killed at and like is that helping? You know what I mean? So that like interlock blocking behavioral contingencies there and is that happening? Or are the teammates talking to each other, are they helping each Matt Heininger: Yeah. Scott O: other? You know, we need to see that happening. Matt Heininger: Well and it's funny you mentioned that and being deterministic there probably is, you know, greater interest than we estimate. of the last three talks that Team ABA has done, whether I'm a part of it or not, all of the, teachers or the, you know, discussants have always said like, Hey, there's an interest and there's a series of questions on esports. we did a talk at Mesa Wan University, which is in Ottawa, Canada, And it was like, well, and what about its application in esports? So it's it's interesting that you say that, because you know, there are some key component and composite skills that could be learned to effectively communicate when you're, you know, multiplayer games or I'm not the biggest gamer, but yeah, no, I I I can see that. Jake: So Matt, I got one more question for you. I this I think this is the last question for for the episode. if there is one hill that you will die on for this science, for this for this application of behavior analysis in sports, what is it and what do you want people to understand about it? Matt Heininger: this is this is very elementary and simplistic, but it's the understanding of behavior itself. And I'm I'm sure you were probably looking for a better answer. And I wanted to go measurement, I'm very big on measurement, experimental design thereafter. so a part of me wants to say, if there's one sort of, imparting nugget is learn how to measure based off of the dimension of the behavior. But I think it really is just behavior itself. Speaking of the de-stigma, stigmatizing, you know, that. you know, behavior is behavior is behavior, Dr. Papazian. And you know, making sure that that that that's the hill that I die on is being able to disseminate that through a sport context. and then from there they understand, Jake: Hundred percent. Matt Heininger: response reinforcement that's the building block. you can't create a tower without, excavating the land. That would be my way of, kind of evening the plane and and and and maintaining behavior analysis and its influence in sport. Jake: No, that's not basic at all. Are you kidding me? That's that's fundamental. And I think it's such an important thing for all of us as behavior analysts to remember is Scott O: Yeah. Jake: that we are, at our core, behavior analysts. We are not autism interventionists, we're not sports specialists, we're not therapists. We are behavior analysts. We deal with behavior. And it does not matter the context. Behavior is behavior is behavior. Function does not change. You know, that that's such an important piece of our science. And I think we're we're slowly. Losing that I feel. I talk to young behavior analysts all the and I just hear about it and I'm sitting: You're a behavior analyst, you know how to do this. Matt Heininger: Yeah. Well and you know what? Even for me, i it is hard to lose grasp sometimes, right? Like when you get so integrative, it's borderline ethereal and there isn't literature. Like there are times where I've had Your behavior analyst, your behavior analyst, and that's got, you know, because we're big thinkers. We're dreamers. we are a world of dreamers that have a certification of a B C B A, B C B A D. I know you're only a PhD Scott, but you're one of us, I get tripped up and I'm like, okay, no, like affirm, be conceptually systematic, affirm to the principles of our science, how does it apply? And if it doesn't you know or or there isn't literature to indicate such well then you know that's an exciting time to be able to expand our science and it's very fitting because this is SIBA and you are all about the expansion of behavior analysis. So a good way to bookend it. I really appreciate you guys having me. Jake: It was a pleasure having you. So Di-Anne: Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much. Scott O: Thank you, Matt. Thanks for being on.