SEBA: Well, welcome to our first episode of the Evolving Behavior Analyst, the official podcast of the Society for the Expansion of Behavior Analysis, or SEBA. We're really excited to welcome you to our very first episode. Welcome to the Evolving Behavior Analyst, where science meets practice and today's practitioners shape the future of the field. Brought to you by SIBA, unifying minds, elevating practice, and expanding impact. Di-Anne Elise: Before we begin, we'll take a few moments to introduce ourselves, share our backgrounds, and discuss what inspired us to create the involving behavioral analyst. You know, we have ⁓ pitch and holed ourselves into ⁓ you autism and there's so much more that we can give. So I think that that that's the reason why we're doing the podcast, right? The reason why is because we want to get the word out and make sure that everybody knows that, you know, we are more than ⁓ actually just, you know, behavioral analysts and clinicians just to be, you know, ⁓ practitioners of children with autism or adults with autism. So I believe that that that is that is an amazing ⁓ vision that we have and I'm excited for what is going to come for sure. SEBA: Well, so tell us a little bit about you. So who are you and why are you here and how did you get involved with SIBA? Yeah, give give us the background. Di-Anne Elise: you know, believe it or I got involved with SIBA because I knew Dr. Sh knew Schubert. Okay. I knew the founder ⁓ and ⁓ we met because we were both ⁓ RBTs and the same school. we were both in school trying to get in getting a master's degree ⁓ she got me involved also in infant and toddler development as specialist and I was so excited because I was like, you know what? ⁓ this she's a great person. So I went to her wedding, we became friends. I didn't even join SIBA originally from the beginning because I was busy, like I had a lot of things going on. And then I decided, you know what, I need to join. I need to help out and and join this mission that we have so we can expand and we can reach our goals. So But I do a lot of things. I I'm I'm a lead RBT right now. I'm also a program coordinator for a major ⁓ hospital and ⁓ clinish clinics ⁓ nationwide. ⁓ I'm also an infant and develop developmental specialist and ⁓ I really do believe that, you know, expanding your horizons is what we need to do. SEBA: Doctor Scott, why don't you introduce yourselves as as another co host of the Evolving Maper Analyst? Tell us a little about you, kinda how you got involved with Siva and ⁓ w what your background is. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: So my background I guess I guess you can start with I guess in Skinner's lab he shared his lab with Hernstein. This guy came up with matching law and he was the mentor of my mentor. So he was the mentor of Phil Heinlein ⁓ who did ⁓ some experiments with ⁓ negative reinforcement and and showed that negative reinforcement was a thing and then animals would prefer a a less aversive setting. ⁓ and he meant Toured me. ⁓ And I got my start in in behavior analysis in in the ⁓ in the behavioral psychology lab at Temple. It was ⁓ an experimental analysis of behavior. and ⁓ he taught me how to speak behavior ease and things like that. And and ⁓ after that, that was just my undergrad. After that, I was out of the field for a little while and then I got back in it like everybody did, and was working with people with autism and intellectual disabilities, and went on to get my master's. And I was lucky enough to have a ⁓ a professor Antonio Harrison who is studying behavior analysis in sports. And I had always thought about how that would be a great proof for this science to show like how it can, you know, do anything, even make us ⁓ an athlete better or help a sports team win a championship or something like that. And so ⁓ that was my first real taste of behavior analysis and sports, how to use it there. I didn't quite understand it. First, how to use it in behavior analysis in sports. And when I went on ⁓ my PhD, ⁓ I had some autism research set up ⁓ and had COVID. ⁓ And I shifted to ⁓ to behavior analysis in sports and I'm published in that and I've done research in that and still ⁓ trying publish more in that. I've talked on it ⁓ and on. things like that. And and then, you know, in my work, which is basically a lot of stuff now that's outside autism, like in mental health and stuff like that, ⁓ we don't have RBTs. We don't and there's not any other people who are there's not B C BAs. and and it's still I'm still using behavior analysis. And I just felt like that, hey, you know, like we can't be pigeonholed into thinking this is just for autism. it it's it's great. I've helped people with autism ⁓ up ⁓ behavior analysis, but ⁓ think that it's ⁓ it's here to help ⁓ I mean the the whole reason why it was created was ⁓ we can save the world with it, ⁓ just people with autism. ⁓ ⁓ that's why on in ⁓ I got involved in SIBA because ⁓ was complaining about it on LinkedIn and ⁓ Schubert came ⁓ to my LinkedIn and responded to me and was like, ⁓ know, if you really feel so passionate. passionate about it, let's do something about it. Me and you, let's start something. And it wasn't just me and her, because this thing, these things don't just start with one person. You know, it's a group of people. That's why it's still going. That's why Siva is is going strong because it's a group of us that started and and the reason why it's going to keep on going is because a lot of us feel that way. A lot of us feel that we've been pigeonholed into this autism industry and although there's a lot of money to be made there, you know, maybe that money shouldn't just be made by these big companies, maybe maybe we can use behavior analysis to help a lot of people, to help people all over the place and maybe we can even use it to save humanity like it was intended. Di-Anne Elise: Absolutely. I love that. SEBA: ⁓ you mean not you know seek after the almighty dollar? What a novel concept. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Mm mm. It is a hey, it is a function of behavior, right? Di-Anne Elise: Yep, it is. I think also the the reason why I joined are actually two things. First of all, I have for personal reasons, you know, family with autism, but also really what interested me was OBM. And I I I'm doing OBM too. I have my own company at the moment, ⁓ and I do it on the side. Of course, I do many things, but ⁓ but I that's the reason why I joined and that's the reason why I actually became so interested in this field because I come from a marketing, communications, public relations field, and I got really burned out with that. And I just wanted something meaningful, something that was gonna make a difference. And when I started noticing that a family member had autism, I'm like, you know what? Why don't I study it? Why don't I get my master's and see, you know, what I can do? ⁓ but then again, you know, I've been doing OBM, if you think about it, for many years. Okay, because I was director of communications and I've been director of business development and you know, so really and truly, I mean, I think that that this could go further. I instead of calling them director of operations. they should be like, you know, OBM specialist or director of of ⁓ you know organizational business management because we are prepared to do that. You know, we have there's the the clear preparation to actually achieve you know good results. ⁓ SEBA: ⁓ no, I completely agree. And so my my Di-Anne Elise: Mm-hmm. SEBA: background is actually in the clinical psych world, not in kind of the autism intervention proper. And that's that was kind of how I got my my way into behavior analysis, was I was did a master's degree in clinical psychology, ⁓ where it was behavior analytically inclined. So it was all about things like ACT, DBT, the third wave cognitive behavior therapies. That was really what we were specialized in. ⁓ and I ended up working at an autism clinic just kind of as a, hey, here's another place where you could get hours just towards your practicum that's required for for the university and fell in love with it. But I I always kind of keep getting drawn back to these kind of other ancillary services within behavior analysis, within OBM, within psychotherapy, ⁓ sports performance and medicine and things like that. I just as as my career has kind of gone on over the years, I keep getting pulled away into other other arenas. And so that that's actually how I got started here at SIBA ⁓ as the executive vice president. I was consulting with an agency, Schubert happened to be there, and reached out to me and said, Hey, I I see you in our teams chat, you're talking about certain things. ⁓ I'd love to see if you're interested in joining and y I'm a firm believer and you say yes to everything, you figure out how later, because you never know when you're gonna have opportunity again and jumped on it and I said, Well, let let's figure out how to make it work. Di-Anne Elise: Right. SEBA: And so ⁓ my my mission has always been to how do I help my graduate students? So, for context, I am a professor in a program and I I teach the the capstone course, which is the last course before they take their their board exam. And my goal in that course is not just to prepare people for the board exam, but also to prepare them for you cannot allow yourself to be pigeonholed into one thing. You have a skill set that can generalize to a lot of different things, but it's about how you market yourself and it's about how. You ensure that the skills that you have can be understood by the person who's hiring you. And so don't let anyone tell you that you're just in one particular area. You have skill sets. Sure, you need to get supervision and you should, you know, learn how to adjust your repertoire accordingly. But to say that you can only do one thing is really a limitation on yourself and don't go into that. Anyway, I will get off my soapbox for for the time being. No, so as as we know, the field of behavior analysis is constantly evolving. New research and opportunities and new applications continue to shape how we understand and influence behavior. And so, as the official podcast of SIBA, our goal is to highlight the people, the ideas, and the innovations shaping the future of behavior analysis while promoting meaningful conversations that support professional growth, collaboration, and lifelong learning. Di-Anne Elise: so though this podcast we'll be speaking with leaders, practitioners, educators, researchers, students, and advocates from across the field. Together we'll explore topics such as leadership, supervision, ethics, education, organizational management, business management and clinical practice, and the expanding applications of behavioral science. And I love that about this because we can expand so much more. SEBA: And honestly, I'm just just knowing the the talent that we have just already in place. So ⁓ there's a lot happening behind the scenes that y'all are not privy to yet as as you know as our first audience members, but ⁓ we have some really incredible ⁓ people coming in that have already said, yep, we're interested, we cannot wait to join, ⁓ across a variety of placements from comparative animal behavior to OBM to ⁓ to business management, business leaders, looking ⁓ play therapists. We've got some really cool, exciting things line. Now, not only are we pulling together thought leaders from the field, but we're also going to be hosting our officer spotlights, conversations with members of the SIBA officers, board of directors, the leadership team, where they're going to be highlighting what's new around the SIBA sphere. Things like our CEU events, call for papers for our first ever virtual conference, our ongoing advocacy work to expand the scope of what we do as behavior analysts. Di-Anne Elise: That's awesome. Yeah, definitely. And I'm I'm really looking forward to that just because you said the variety of people that we have and ⁓ in Siva is is very ⁓ I mean I I'm so encouraged by that because I think we can get so far. ⁓ also whether you're a student just entering the profession, a seasoned practitioner, or simply someone interested in the science of behavior, we hope these conversations provide insight, inspiration, and practical takeaways that you can apply in your own work and life. ⁓ for our inaugural episode, we're honored to welcome one of the SIBA's own leaders, the organization's master of arms. And today we'll learn about their journey or his journey into behavioral analysis, their her his role about within Ziva, the ZBA organization, the mission to expand awareness and application of behavioral science and their vision for the future of our field. So now let's get started. First question. ⁓ tell us about the professional background and how you first entered the field of behavioral analysis and and also tell us what the specific mentor or experience that got you here today and and we w and expand on that please, Doctor Scott. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: jeez, I thought I already said that. But that was like, ⁓ the Skinner and then he had and then ⁓ and then Heinlein and then ⁓ Yeah, that was that was ⁓ you know, that's the lineage. ⁓ and then it was in the EAB lab. That's where it all started for me and I was like a J Ab guy. I didn't know anything about ABA until, ⁓ you know, probably I don't I'd been ⁓ you know, out of school for a while with my undergrad. ⁓ But I I knew behavior analysis was ⁓ would work, 'cause I could just take those ⁓ that I learned in EOB EAB, those methods and ⁓ you know, type of experimental design and manipulate one independent variable at a time and those things ⁓ then apply them ⁓ ⁓ right away to whatever situation ⁓ was in. ⁓ I was going to school I was a supervisor at at UPS ⁓ I ran a department and it was it was like ⁓ could use I didn't it we didn't know it was OBM. the time. In fact, I'm not sure even sure if we called it that. I think we called it performance management, you know, or something like that. an organizational management. ⁓ I think that was the title of that like that earlier book ⁓ we all had. And yeah and then my my employees would have to scan packages and they would have to load packages and then you know I would get reports on how many packages they scanned and how many ones they didn't read and they scanned and they put in the truck anyway, even though it should have gone to but they sent it to New York or something like that. ⁓ know, and and then I was able to apply those principles right away ⁓ then turn my department into the number one department in the building. ⁓ and a lot of it was like it wasn't even that. It was it was like the the you know, learning the ⁓ what reinforcement does and understanding people skills and stuff like that when it when it comes to people, ⁓ you and and kinda looking at looking at it that way, you know, I'm trying to increase the behavior or decrease the behavior. ⁓ And ⁓ yeah, I've I've worked ⁓ used behavior analysis in a lot of different, you know, different kinds of areas, you know, since then. So I just seem to be one of those people who tries to apply it everywhere. right now I'm I'm an adjunct at Temple ⁓ University in Philadelphia, part-time and then my full time job, ⁓ do mental health and then I do a little bit of work on the side, you know, with private clients here and there. there with in in behavior analysis and sports and I certainly write and research and behavior analysis and sports. ⁓ so that's that's my research nation. And I'm also the the sergeant at arms in of SIBA. Di-Anne Elise: Yes, absolutely. And tell us what that role entails, because I think that's something that probably a lot of people don't understand since we're here on this topic and you mentioned it. ⁓ what can you tell us about the ⁓ that position at SIBA? Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Well, it's the best position because I was supposed to be the poster boy, the face of SIBA early on, so we created a position where I would just do nothing except like have pictures taken ⁓ taken of me they put they put me a chair and then raise me up on their shoulders and walk around with me. I don't have to ⁓ walk anywhere. I get fanned. You know, there's people fans that just blow air on me, it's ⁓ terrific. ⁓ Di-Anne Elise: Yeah. Well you still have a chance. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Yeah, we'll see how big it gets. SEBA: Well we'll we'll make sure to bring out the grapes for you and like just, you know, slowly feed you grapes. Di-Anne Elise: Ou sim, o sim. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Sounds sounds like a lot of non contingent reinforcement there, you know. Sounds like that would result in a lot of idleness, I I would think. yeah, but we we named ⁓ we took that sergeant at arms and we we named it Master Sergeant at Arms since since we were being, you know, funny at the time and as a nod to video game culture. But ⁓ the sergeant at arms ⁓ with their job is ⁓ I certify the vote and I make sure the voters are vetted and and people who are voting are members of SIBA. ⁓ I maintained decorum at the meeting. Di-Anne Elise: ⁓ Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: I'm sure Robert's Roar's orders are being used. You know, I certainly like to model them. I'll say things like, you know, I second that or I'll make a motion or something like that. ⁓ I make sure the board members, the board pretty much stays on task and people keep on going. I maintain equity and inclusion. Those are my official like roles, but my unofficial role, I'm like the dirty hairy, you know, of of the SIBA where if something needs to be pushed through, I kinda like grab that task and push it through, you know. Di-Anne Elise: I love it. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: So like, you know, the stuff with the IRS and you know, and and getting everything done with the bylaws and things like that. The really the really hard stuff, you know, that like that takes a while, someone has to chew on and and work on and stuff like that. So so yeah, that that that ⁓ the setup ⁓ you know, the original setup and everything was you know, ⁓ I had a lot to do with it. But it it was everybody contributed, but you know, yeah, I'm I'm I'm I'm that part of it where yeah, I had a sign off where they might come after me if we Di-Anne Elise: Yeah. Well, you did a great job. Amazing. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: we don't pay our taxes. So let's make sure we ⁓ make sure we pay yeah, they'll come after me. Let's make sure we keep on paying. ⁓ we better ⁓ better, yeah. ⁓ Di-Anne Elise: They're gonna come after you if anything happens. So we better we better do a good job for you. We better all do a good job for you. SEBA: Absolutely. And for the rec for those of you for those of you listening at home who d who don't really know a ton about Siva, ⁓ you know, Dr. Scott, I'm gonna have you kind of expand on that in just a second. I just wanna say this. ⁓ there is no one better that I've ever encountered in my my career as someone who to like to heard cats. the way that this man does. It's actually really, really fantastic and amazing to watch. And I've I feel like I've learned a lot just watching over the last couple of d dealing with the IRS in and of itself was Di-Anne Elise: ⁓ SEBA: A master Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Yeah, I'm glad yeah, we got that through. That was tricky. It took some vision from the from the forefront and I had to I had to stand pat on some things. I had to be flexible in a lot and know there's a few things I have to stand pat on where like, you know, I could be flexible in everything else, but it has to be this way for everything to go through for the IRS. 'Cause, you know, there's a lot of voices and when you're the only one saying like, Hey, it's not gonna get done unless we have it this way, you gotta make sure it is that way, you know, and you know, make sure it g it it gets done. So ⁓ for fortunately I had some of that experience and I also was in a position ⁓ you know, because I'm you know, involved in other nonprofits. I'm was creating another nonprofit at that time, turning my civic association into it was a homeowners association into a civic association. ⁓ so so I created two nonprofits in one year with SIBA and the Fox Chase Civic Association, you know, and then and I'm also on the board of the Philadelphia Metropolitan Association of Behavior Analysis. Di-Anne Elise: Wow. Amazing. ⁓ Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: That's a a a chapter of ABAI. It's a local chapter. We were like one of the smaller chapters. I think probably one of the smallest, but we're pretty stable, you know, and people were joining. We have a list serve and and we meet and we do these black scorpion meetings. We call them black scorpion meetings. That's it like, you know, if you want to be if you want to be a part of the club, you can be a black scorpion. And we've we've send out the that on the email, just like a black scorpion ⁓ you know, icon or something so people know that we're gonna meet. Di-Anne Elise: That's so cool. Yes. SEBA: Love it. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: You know. and it's fun and you know, 'cause we meet and we talk we read an article when we talk about it. You know, so and it's always like kind of like a you know, maybe a controversial one or, you know, something like that. You know, something new and hot, you know, that's kinda like people talking, maybe determinism and free will and stuff like that, so we can like get into the weeds. Di-Anne Elise: Yeah. ⁓ okay, I like that. I love it. Okay. I like that. sorry, Jake. I have a question because ⁓ I know that probably the audience is gonna wanna know ⁓ what exactly what kind of nonprofit are we? Because I know that we are not a 501c3 and which is like a normal nonprofit that everybody pretty much, you know, ⁓ hears about. So what are we? What is SIBA? Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: SIBA is a five ⁓ one C six non profit. Right. So a five one C six nonprofit is still is still a nonprofit. It's just not a charitable organization. It's more like a business league, a chamber of commerce, you know, a federation of of businessmen or businesswomen, ⁓ know, whatever you want to call it. ⁓ know, kind of we're there to ⁓ pretty much, ⁓ guess you could say we can set the industry standards and ⁓ things like that. So ⁓ just to go over it, so like a 51c6 is it is a tax-exempt organization. It's not organized for profit. So we don't pay out to any person or something. There's not an owner of SIBA. ⁓ and we don't have any earnings that we pay out to. ⁓ but we're organized to promote the common business interest ⁓ of ⁓ of not just SIBA, but also of behavior analysts. our business interest is specifically for us is expanding the usage and revenue streams ⁓ for analysts. analysis in other non-traditional settings and populations. So we're focusing on improving and we're focusing on improving the business conditions for ⁓ entire industry ⁓ in these areas. So ⁓ that's what kind of ⁓ kind of ⁓ know ⁓ we are what a five one C six is is ⁓ I to think of it, you know, the NFL is a 501c6, where like, you know, there's chambers of commerce, you know, things like that. but I I think our like our purpose really is to expand the business of behavior analysis. That's what I see what we're there for. Increase the amount of money behavior analysts are paid, improve the business conditions, ⁓ the settings, expand the populations, expand the behaviors, generality. ⁓ want behavior analytic generality. We want it everywhere. Di-Anne Elise: I agree. SEBA: Now that's a really important thing here to to really hold out to because that is th like you said, that is Siva's what our biggest mission is to expand the field beyond autism intervention. And to use your words here, to expand the business side of things. ⁓ why is that so important, especially right now? And so you know, why why choose this period, this this time in history for Siva to to kind of make its debut? Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Yeah, from from my point of view, our mission is is critical, especially right now. People are intervening to change behavior on every day, every single day, and they're doing they're doing it very badly and unsuccessfully. And they're using aversives. And this is to this is terrible. People are fired, people are mistreated, people fight, people behave in antisocial ways and commit crimes and and these problems are problems of human behavior. And they're s should be solved by real experts in human behavior like us. SEBA: Yeah. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Like we're the ones who can do it. SIBA was designed from the get go to be the thing that we need to help install behavior anal analysis, behavior analysts and behavioral systems all over the place so that we can actually save the world instead of just one or two percent of the population. Di-Anne Elise: Yeah. I I agree I agree with that I mean I've I've worked with many corporations, you know, in a a leadership level throughout the years and nobody has a system. You know, when when you ⁓ none of the departments had a system. I mean and worked with in like hospital, you know, settings and and nobody really has a system and and it really OBM, if you think about it, if you apply it, obviously that you creating not only a system but You're also creating a standard for effectiveness in the workplace. So I totally agree with that, a hundred percent. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Mm-hmm. And the this rampant mentalism, I just have to, you ⁓ add on to that, is is killing us. I mean, people are chasing around the wrong causes of behavior. They think it's ⁓ by anxiety and depression and let's just blame a feeling, ⁓ know, and say like, ⁓ that's why I was ⁓ know, and it's like, All right, well, yeah, but what made you feel that way in the first place? You know, and it's and it's like if we never ⁓ never solve anything if we're always chasing our tails. after mentalistic reasons and that's why does someone do th ⁓ they were they're just that way. That's just the way they are and they can't change. That's not so. We know behavior change is possible in anyone and and at any age. Di-Anne Elise: That's why we have the ABC model, you know, antecedent behavioral consequence. So we can actually modify the behavior. So ⁓ I I that's why n it it should not only be used for autistic children or autistic adults. It should be used in the workplace. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Everywhere. SEBA: but ⁓ but leads into a great question though. So ⁓ with analysis being so pigeonholed into autism intervention, ⁓ how it that behavior analysts can ⁓ use skill sets in other areas? ⁓ How ⁓ how we as an organization help promote that? Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Mm. Well, I'll tell you what I use it for. You know, just to give you an example. I mean Personally I use behavior analysis on myself. And I th I wish everybody would use it on themselves. If everybody was using behavior analysis on themselves and everybody was collecting data, then we'd have all this data and we could just analyze the data and make these database decisions all the time and then, you know, people would just be c heading in the right direction instead of like guessing at it all the time. I use it to make myself stronger, faster, smarter, more resilient, flexible, you know, I made myself a better pool player with behavior analysis, a better golfer. And you know, and a better w worker and and I use it to help my community and help my patients and my clients and, you know, make others good at what they do too. And I use it I've used it for entrepreneurs and students and busy people and athletes and other kinds of performers and to help people deal with things that are hard. Anytime something's hard, I just c turn to behavior analysis and and it helps me out. I have a a direction, a way to go. I know what to do to to Yeah. Di-Anne Elise: Interesting that you say that because ⁓ I have I come from a I hope come from two children that are mental health counselors and we talk about why is it that mental health counselors are not referring to behavioral analysts only because and and when they hire in a in a clinic, when they hire they they're looking for a mental health counselor, a behavioral mental health counselor. So what's the difference between a behavioral mental health counselor and a behavioral analyst? Like what is the difference? I truly have my opinion on that. The difference is that we actually specialize in behavioral analyst analysis. They don't. So if we're the experts, then why aren't they referring to us? And that's my question. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Well, they're they're their jobs are a little bit different, you know, right? Like they are trying to solve depression, anxiety, PTSD. Yeah, I'm gonna help I'm gonna help someone. I'm gonna help someone with PTSD and yeah, I'm gonna do some kind of desensitization and you know, and we're gonna work, you know, work through it and you know do some, you know, psychoeducation and stuff like that. So is it gonna look all that different than what they do? ⁓ right? But here's the difference. When you start to get to things like, they have anxiety from the PTSD, they have depression from the PTSD, ⁓ we're trying to ⁓ solve the we're trying trying to solve their depression as the those things have to change first. And then what I've found is that no, if you work on the reasons why they were depressed in the first place, they lost the job, they got divorced, their kids aren't around anymore and they're not fighting for them. They're not trying to get ⁓ back and they don't get to talk to You know, and and you help ⁓ with those things, then then people do do better and does it it doesn't matter that they're depressed anymore and and th maybe that's why they were depressed in the first place, 'cause it was a call for attention, because they needed help. SEBA: Right. Di-Anne Elise: We we or we go back to the A B C model and the antecedent, right? ⁓ Basically. Mm-hmm. SEBA: Honestly But no, if if you have not picked up a copy of this book, it's called The Reluctant Alliance, ⁓ by ⁓ Bobby Newman. Strongly recommend this because he he brings out exactly what you're talking about, Dr. Scott. He he makes the argument that at the end of the day, if you think about where behavior comes from, if we think about if we if we actually look at the contingencies in the way that we would in any other context, the reality of the situation is that a warm, inviting environment. It won't fix the problem. Yeah, a hug might not fix it, but when you are put into a place where you can actually experience unconditional positive regard, when you are given the space to actually explore those things that's safe, that's psychologically safe, that's physically safe, and you have the ability to work through those things, all of a sudden those interventions, like those things that we throw around all the time, are probably monumentally more effective because the environment's now working with you in that favor. And I I think it's so important for us to never lose sight of that that we have the skill set. But Dia to your point more more closely, behavior analysts we we aren't trained in clinical psychotherapies unless we seek out that that piece further. We're not able to build For our services in those contexts. And I I don't know if we should be able to, right? Because there there is a very big difference between my training as in a in a clinical psychology program as compared to my training as a behavior analyst, even though there's a lot of carryover in my approach. I was trained in a lot of things in in clinical psychology that I can make fit in a behavioral analytic lens, but I would never have been exposed to those. Just as a going through a standard Behavior analysis, master's degree. And I I do want to kind of toe the line a bit of saying there there is something to be said about staying within our scope of practice and staying within our scope of competence, but also saying that there is room for us to expand that competence. It's we need to have the the actual lobbying and the the the the actual training to support it. Di-Anne Elise: Right. I think lack of lack right, lack of knowledge. Yeah, lack of knowledge. We're here to actually we are the voice, right? We're the voice to g of get you know, to let people know what we do in order to understand it and also to know that we can and we have the skill set, like you said. Yeah. Absolutely. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Mm. Agreed. Agreed. That's why we need SIBA, right? That's why we need it. Mm-hmm. SEBA: Now, Dr. Scott, you were saying earlier that, you know, Seba's main mission is to help with this, right? To help expand these things and to to really be the the support to these kind of expanding our skill sets or expanding our knowledge in the systems to support that. What are some examples of that vision becoming a reality that we're we're currently working through right now in in SIBA? Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: yeah, so we're, you know, currently doing what? We're, you know, pushing these other you know, models we're doing, talking about different credentials. We're talking about regulating, you know, and the this wild west of the micro credenti credentials and what's going on there and like how to really provide value and structure for behavior analysts outside of autism because 'cause they need it. And 'cause this this BACB cert, their cert is not doing it for us and the the QABA and ⁓ the Interli Internationalist Behaviour Analysts cert is not doing it. for us either. They're just they're just for autism. And even when you look at the the certification, the B C B A certification, I know there's a lot of people who don't use it for autism, but there's a lot of behavior analysts that don't have that cert anymore because They don't need it and it didn't really help them and why do it? ⁓ and then there's also some who are like what we're talking about seventeen percent who are specifically working non in autism and it's kinda like, all right, that certification that's really important for working with kids with autism. In fact that's what it allows you to do in my state. It allows you to work with kids with autism, it doesn't allow you to do anything else. But that's the thing. I there's all these things that I can do. I can help people and and all kinds of Different ways, and you know, and you're and you're right, you're right, Jake. Like that, should we have should we automatically be able to treat people in mental health ⁓ like like we have a license to do it? ⁓ we shouldn't because ⁓ not trying to solve the same things, we're not trying to solve their depression. Yeah, we're trying to help them ⁓ better in their environments, but we're not trying to solve those things that the mental health people are solving, and it becomes a problem ⁓ the the funding organizations want to know what progress you You've made on their depression, you know, and maybe maybe they're still feeling depressed, and they're using measures that measure how depressed they feel. But maybe they're still feeling depressed, but they're doing what they need to do with the depression. And that for me is progress. When I get my my client doing feel depressed, but they they're doing a lot of stuff anyway. ⁓ That is you ⁓ really realize made progress with someone. No, you're not on the couch anymore. ⁓ You know, not in the in the bed anymore. You're up and you're out. and you're working and stuff like that. Yeah. ⁓ then like are you yeah, maybe you're still feeling that way. Maybe you're not, but you know, ⁓ ⁓ know, if they check on it and you say you're feeling the same way, it looks like I'm not doing my job when I ⁓ like I did. You know, when we change those things where all of a sudden like you're you've changed your behaviors and then your life has changed because of it. You know, so yeah, I I ⁓ know, and then we we need ⁓ there. We need something there 'cause I could do those things ⁓ Like like a like a psychologist, like a licensed psychologist could do and more. And I could do even more and then but like not like them, just in my own way. You know, and that that B s that B C B A cert doesn't cover it. Not where I live. SEBA: I think I I think it's important to make a distinction here and say that there is a difference between a certification, like the a certificate and a license. And I think that's an important nuance thing that we have to make sure that we're we're kind of towing the line of is that the certification is you know an accrediting body that says, hey, here's a set of skills that you have. And I think along the way, that got equated with licensure and that they are the same thing. And they are two very different ⁓ things. And and to say that, you know. Di-Anne Elise: That's a good point. Mm-hmm. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Well let me ask you a question. Let me ask you a question. According to the insurance company, does it matter? And for them, all that matters is that those four letters, you have those four letters at the end of your name or those three letters, that's what matters to them. SEBA: Okay, go ahead. Huh. Di-Anne Elise: Mm-hmm. Very true. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: You know, so when when it comes down to it, the people with the money they're willing to pay. You know, or the ones who really decide that, you know. But ⁓ like I agree with you. But then again, like that that B C B A certification means so much. Like it means you can automatically get a license in a lot of states, like where you just they just give it to you. Right. So it basically is equivalent to what a license minus seventy five dollars or whatever it costs for you to get that thing in your state. You know. Di-Anne Elise: Yeah. SEBA: And that That is the discussion we need to have about should it be that easy to get a license into practice in a state. And I mean I I take a look for example, you when I when I was trying to get licensed as a psychologist, it was not only did I have to have my program, but I had to take this particular exam. I had to have a minimum score on this thing, I had to have this, I had to, I had to show so many things to say, hey, I have the core competencies. And so it just-I it's- I I kind of sit there and say, you know, did we did we kind of leave some stuff on the table that maybe we shouldn't have left on the table? Di-Anne Elise: Ha ha ha. Not at all. SEBA: when we were just in our in our rush to try to get accepted as a science, did we maybe leave some things out on the that we shouldn't have? So that's but that's another that's a whole nother discussion for another day. Di-Anne Elise: Right. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: That's a good question. Di-Anne Elise: And that's all. Yes, absolutely. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: That's a whole episode. Do we leave things on the table? SEBA: I honestly absolutely one hundred percent. Di-Anne Elise: Yeah. Well my my thing is, I mean, how can we collaborate with other ⁓ disciplines? You know, 'cause ⁓ I mean, I'm sure there's there's a lot of ways we could in the future. And maybe that's what we need to fight for. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Yeah, you know what? We could you know what I was thinking though? I was thinking like the we've been collaborating with other professions now more and more and it has a diluted behavior analysis. 'Cause I I think like we have been successful in working with other professions, but then I see even at even at the the conference, ⁓ In San Francisco, like it just wasn't as analytic as it you as it used to be. I'm like, give me data, give me a deep analysis. So my head spins and I'm like, Whoa, you want so deep that you went too deep, you know, but there isn't there's not too deep for us. You know, we can analyze the heck out of behavior, but but you didn't you didn't see it and it's like, are we are we missing some of that? And the way people are talking too, we've lost our behavior ease. Like we don't speak the language anymore, we're speaking like them, talking about anxiety and depression and And feelings and the brain, you know, like we like we should be talking out the about the brain. What do we know about the brain? You know, we're j we don't have focused on anything in d like the brain. Not focused on brain structures, you know? So I don't I don't know. Di-Anne Elise: That's very interesting. That's very interesting because ⁓ they do a lot of us. I mean, obviously when you go to the train through the training of behavioral analysis, one of the things at least that I that I ⁓ experienced was that they were teaching us that we we have to speak to everybody else in their normal language. Like we can't have our behavioral analysis, you know, dictionary words, you know, because obviously they don't understand. And that's probably what you experienced there. They were actually trying to make sure that everybody understood because maybe there were a lot of disciplines and they weren't they didn't want to speak like a behavior analyst, you know, because they wouldn't understand. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Mm. SEBA: You call that f but wouldn't you call that a like a faulty stimulus control? Because you know, if we're at a conference shouldn't we be like behavior analysis? there is a time and a place for for that patient-friendly language, for that that that Collaboration-friendly language, but then there's a space for that. No, we have to be technical because that's part of one of you know let's go back to Beowulf and Risley. One of the those core pieces is that we are conceptually systematic science, right? And so that that implies a core taxonomy that we need to be able to use fluently. Di-Anne Elise: Mm-hmm. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Mm-hmm. Yeah, our own terms and just our own terms that no one else uses and sticking with them. You know, and there's nothing wrong with that. 'Cause you know, if you you're on the safe side if you do. Like you're not making any assumptions and you're not, you know, like you know, overcoming any biases. But you may you may name technology and I know now now we're going off script and now you're not gonna like me for this 'cause I I actually have a few questions that I prepared for you too. ⁓ Di-Anne Elise: Right. You prefer it, huh? Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: All right, so yeah, and you know what, AI didn't help me here. These are my own questions. Di-Anne Elise: Okay, good, I'm gone. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: If behavior analysts had a device, I mean like a little computer thing, a little device, right? A little handheld thing, right? That's like kind of our thing, I don't know, what would it do? What would you want it to do? Di-Anne Elise: Well well you know, right now there's there's a lot of SEBA: That's a good one. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: It could do anything you wanted. It could do anything you wanted in behavior analysis. But it could but it's a it but it does something behavior analytic. It does something Di-Anne Elise: Yeah, but there's there's But there's a lot of programs out there ⁓ that take data and they do graphics. I mean for me I I love that. I love when the program does your own the graphics as soon as you input the data, you know, and all that good stuff. But but I think I think that and that's what I like. I like the fact that, you know, AI can help us with all that. And and programs right now do it. So I mean, I don't know about you, Jake. What ⁓ would you want it to do? Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Hm. SEBA: ⁓ I'm thinking this that's hard. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Hm. I'd I'd wanna to like I don't know, identify like re I don't know, identify reinforcement or something like that, you know, or like identify stimulus control. Or s you know, something something like that we can't quite do. Identify the value of a stimulus, you know, or something like that. Like it would tell you exactly how much how like valuable that stimulus is or something like that. You know Di-Anne Elise: Well that's their data, but mm hmm. SEBA: Mm. Okay. I got I got I got my answer. I got my answer. Di-Anne Elise: Okay, what's your answer? ⁓ SEBA: I would love, if I could have an app, I would love for to know, okay, scan this, scan the environment, scan the person, and then tell me all of the contextual variables that might be impacting their behavior at this particular moment in history. Because like I because I I look at this from like I wanna know I wanna know everything. Like I like I look at like Baum's law of allocation. Like I wanna know. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: ⁓ yeah, that be interesting. Yeah. Di-Anne Elise: Okay. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Yeah, all the condition stimuli. SEBA: all of the variables that are impacting this person that I can see, things that I can't see, so that way I can make a a better informed decision about what my next step should be or what my next clinical decision should be. Di-Anne Elise: But it has to be observable, remember it has to be observable. But ⁓ but yeah, that's that's a good Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Yeah, that would be neat. Well, that's what the device is for though, right? 'Cause it's doing something yeah, you do some yeah, it's doing something you can't do. Yeah, yeah. ⁓ SEBA: That's what the device is for. It's to make it observable. It's it's this is this is hand wavy magic moment. Di-Anne Elise: Yeah. To make it observable. Yeah, there you go. Okay, got it. Got it. Okay, yeah. That's that's a good one. That's a real good one. Yeah. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Hm. All right. SEBA: 'Cause if you think about it, like think think ⁓ think about like ⁓ th when you're talking about contextual variables, like for example, I didn't sleep well last night. Okay, cool, that's a variable. I might not have been able to observe that you in my setting, but that's absolutely going to impact their behavior, right? And if I can know that or I can contend with that, I might make a different decision about how I intervene or how I approach the conversation I'm having with someone. Di-Anne Elise: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. Absolutely. Right. Yeah. That's a good one. I like that. How 'bout you, Doctor Scott? Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Mm, mm. Hmm. ⁓ I'm ready for I'm ready to ask you guys the next question. I'm already I'm one. Ready? What is what is the weirdest behavior you ever recorded or intervened on? Strangest one. Di-Anne Elise: ⁓ okay. Straight away. SEBA: Alright, go ahead, go ahead. Go ahead, go ahead. Okay. Can you operationally define strange? ⁓ Di-Anne Elise: Ha Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: No. It has to but it but it has to be strange where we react and we say, ⁓ that's really weird. That's like so it has to be as it's defined by your your ⁓ verbal community. Right. So I won't operationally define it. Just verbal community definition. Di-Anne Elise: Yeah, all strange. SEBA: Huh. Okay. Okay. Let me think. Di-Anne Elise: Verbal communication. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: verbal community definition, like, you know, as in your verbal community will like, Yeah, that's strange. ⁓ Like me me and you, DM, we'll we'll agree, we'll be like, ⁓ yeah, you know, that's strange. Di-Anne Elise: ⁓ okay, got it. Okay. ⁓ Hmm. I'm I know I've had really bad I mean, no I'm gonna say bad cases, but I've had really difficult cases of twins that had fetal alcohol syndrome. And it was a very interesting case because now we had there was four. Two that were adopted and there were the twins and then two that were siblings and the behavior was the same throughout. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Hm. Di-Anne Elise: So that was interesting to me because they because they was learned behavior from them. ⁓ and they were very violent. You know, I had to actually leave it because there were there were lawyers and they wanted me to go in the bathroom when they were showering and there were boys and I'm like, ⁓ you know, I can't do that. You know, so there was a lot of things going on, but I think that was like the hardest case, but in terms of strange, I mean I mean, we ha everything, everything. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Di-Anne Elise: all the behaviors that we deal with are not are not behaviors that, you know, we are is like is socially accepted. You know. They're not socially accepted. None of them are. You know, so I mean aquilalia, scripting, ⁓ just all of them. I mean, w you name it. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Mm-hmm. Yeah, right. Mm-hmm. Well, I don't know. ⁓ see, ⁓ you're just thinking of problem behavior. You know, there's like behaviors I've tried to all right, so the strangest all right, ⁓ You know, actually you know what when you talk about the you know, talk about autism, yeah, there's a lot of strange things in autism. Like I do remember like the the one client that was like just wanted to be nude. Yeah, it had something to do with the ⁓ probably the bed bugs, you know, you know, infestation, you know, previously but you know, and and he would just tear his tear his clothes off. Yeah. But ⁓ but I have a ⁓ you know, I've been telling a lot a lot of people I had ⁓ I have this client I'm working with it's which like I'm really happy to work with and she's Di-Anne Elise: Yeah. No, ⁓ yeah. are going or going in the bathroom and trees and you know. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: A she's like a s she's training to be a circus performer, among other things, but like that's one of the things she's doing. ⁓ performer. So she's so one of the one of the ⁓ our activity schedule, ⁓ ⁓ like face painting, sword swallowing, like you know, like yo, she's getting ready to do the trapeze and you know and stuff like that. ⁓ so it's like ⁓ one of the things we're we were talking about was sword swallowing. ⁓ very interesting behavior, like we were talking about whether we should do Di-Anne Elise: A welcome format? SEBA: That's awesome. Di-Anne Elise: ⁓ ⁓ cool. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: fluency or mastery and we were like at we were at we're doing mastery but there's parts of the routine she was doing fluent trying to ⁓ fluency on like trying to like line the ⁓ up with her tongue ⁓ I've learned all kinds of stuff like you can't do that ⁓ any time because if you s like if you just ate, like if it's just within ⁓ know a couple hours after you ate and you swallowed the sword, when you take it out, like it's gonna have food on it. So you have to like, you know. ⁓ ⁓ Di-Anne Elise: ⁓ wow, that is so interesting. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: ⁓ but ⁓ yeah, that that is is w just one of the many one of the many very st strange behaviors I think I've like interviewed in. Di-Anne Elise: That is very interesting. Yeah. Well, no, I had a case that was presented to me and ⁓ everybody kept telling me do not take it because he loves to go to the bathroom, you know, and in tr you know, pee in ch in in a tree. Like it could be anywhere. You know what mean? I'm like, What do you mean? I'm like, what do you mean? He just whips it out and just goes to the bathroom. Yes he does. I'm like, ⁓ I guess I'm now taking the case, okay? ⁓ Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Ha ha ha ⁓ ⁓ that's so funny. I would have taken it. ⁓ I've been like, what what is it is a stimulus control or a lack of stimulus control? That's what you wanna know. Di-Anne Elise: That was the weirdest thing that was presented to me. So I know thank you. But you know, obviously, you know I actually said you need a mail I did not venture in that arena so I was like I was like I don't think I'm gonna do that. No. Give me a child, okay? Give me a child. No, it was it was like a a twenty one year old. It was not a child. It was a twenty one year old, yeah. I said, Give me a child. Take an idea. Well it for me actually, I mean I like I like ⁓ I like Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: how about you, Jake? We w ⁓ that wasn't a child either. ⁓ interest ⁓ okay, interesting. They're harder to prompt physically when they get bigger. Di-Anne Elise: treating children because I am a certified independent, I mean ⁓ infant and childhood developmental specialist and I believe that we can modify behavior as young as like eighteen months. Like we really I've seen I literally have seen transformations like between eighteen months and three years old. I've seen transformations three years. Interventions. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Okay. sure. ⁓ Mm-hmm. Mm. Even the ear even early b you know, early baby behavior, sure, they're very sensitive to consequences. Yeah, absolutely. Di-Anne Elise: Yeah, absolutely. I mean I love that. And that's why I love, you know, early intervention. That's that's my thing. That's my specialty, I'm gonna say, other than obviously OBM. ⁓ but ⁓ but yeah, at the moment that's what I do. Children and you know, young is zero because ⁓ with the infant and toddler development portion of my my career, ⁓ I've had children younger, like probably three months old, so and above. And it's it's very interesting. But behavior behavioral analyst has helped me in that arena too, because what I do is like coaching. So you coach the parents and obviously you see the development and you kind of recognize some of those, you know, behaviors, you know, and and that's when you recommend and you give ⁓ resources and you know, make sure that they get all the services. So so that's that's what I love about it. But yeah. How about you, Jay? Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Hm. How about you, Jake? Weirdest Di-Anne Elise: ⁓ You're too quiet. SEBA: Okay, so because I was- I was trying to think of like how do I how do I explain this in a con like w without having to go with like the very, very long way of explaining the context for this. So this is back when I was in graduate school in my master's program. ⁓ so for context, I was working in a lab that was specifically focusing on psychological safety, and we were specifically working with sex workers. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Mm-hmm. SEBA: And so we were in a ⁓ in a not so great part of town. Like our university wasn't in the greatest part of town. And ⁓ there were a variety of gentlemen's clubs that we were kind of working with because they were a lot of individuals who were having some really difficult times with just going and doing their job. So there were there were performers that were that were were getting harassed, ⁓ both in and outside of of the of their work placements. The bouncers really weren't doing anything to help, and they were doing this thing. So we were tracking the frequency of times in which any performer would specifically sp like shout out their safe word. So we had we had a safe word essentially that would alert to the bouncers like, hey, get this person out of here. Like they're not. And I think if I remember the I think it was like tomato juice or something was like what we decided. Because we because we wanted something as like bizarre and like something that would like immediately cut the mood and like Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Ha ha ha. Di-Anne Elise: Right. SEBA: You might look like you're crazy, but that's also kind of the point. Like we want this to be like we're we're we're interrupting this in this response of like, no, you're not gonna be doing these things. You know, like I'm doing a job, you do do there there is a line here, you do not you cross the line. So they we counted the number of times we heard tomato juice in a particular shift. Di-Anne Elise: That is Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: That's funny. SEBA: And then we and then we and then we also kind of followed up with the balancers to say, like, hey, what were you doing as antecedents? Like, you know, were you scanning the room accordingly? You know, were you tracking how many drinks this person they had? They were acting kind of iffy. they had four drinks in, you know, number one, why didn't you cut them off? And number two, why were you not proactive and like getting them out of there before they started, you know, really harassing the the people that are working on stage? ⁓ so I think that was like the weirdest When y when you take it like when you look at it in context, it's it's not as strange, but like when you when you just hear like how many times did you say tomato juice in Di-Anne Elise: That is I'm not even gonna ask why you chose that that word. I mean, I know you said it was strange and it cuts the mood, but you know. I'm not gonna ask SEBA: one of the one of the clients said, Well, what if we just had tomato juice? And I said, Done, we'll go with that. That'll work. It's bizarre, it's weird, like it breaks the mood, done. I'm like I was like, Yeah, we could we could do something funny like Comquad or like, but like but that like it's it didn't have the same ring. Like we we we went through a couple different ones. ⁓ this this is this so this is back in time where back in the day where ⁓ Di-Anne Elise: Okay. All right. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. SEBA: Desperate Housewives was a really, really, really big show. And there was the the episode where ⁓ they where Brie was discussing a safe word with her husband because he was really into BDSM. And there was a he's like, We we gotta think of a like a really serious word. And she goes, What about Palestine? And like that so someone someone opted that and I was like, I see where you're going, but no, no, we can't. That's not let's not do that one. Let's let's not let's not do Palestine. Let's so so tomato juice is what we we came up with. And it was and it and honestly it was it was pretty effective. Di-Anne Elise: Mm-hmm. Right. Okay, got it. That's where they got it from. Yeah, got it. Okay. Yeah. That's yeah. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Yeah, maybe not. SEBA: effective. ⁓ and actually it's the some of the regulars got to know it and so they would ⁓ they they would call it pulling a code ⁓ pulling a code tomato juice. So they would they would like they would full like they would flag over one of the bouncers say, Hey, like I think we got like a tomato juice about to go down. ⁓ because this person walked in and sure like and the and honestly I'm not gonna lie here some of the patrons they they were more aware than the bouncers were. Di-Anne Elise: They caught on. Yeah. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Ha ha ha. Di-Anne Elise: Well Yeah. SEBA: ⁓ because they knew these people outside and they like, Okay, yeah, no, like we we saw them at another place, they followed us here, like get ⁓ out now. ⁓ but we we but we had some really cool impacts on on churn and just just an overall just just psycho the psychological safety and just well being at work for for people. It was really interesting. Di-Anne Elise: Right. Yeah. Right, so that's another you see that that's another ⁓ another way we can impact ⁓ and even ⁓ use our skill set is for safety also. And I I know people that actually I know ⁓ someone that works with airport safety. And ⁓ and that's one of the things that actually we should ⁓ you know, maybe tap into also, you know, in the future. Maybe something we can infiltrate in and and use our, you know, our skill set for that. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Mm, mm. Mm. Yeah. Hm. Di-Anne Elise: So there's so many ways, so many ways that we can use our skill set. I mean, ⁓ you know, it they're endless really. It's just we're not taking advantage of it at all, unfortunately. And I think it's because of all these, you know, associations that, you know, just wanna treat autist autism because the insurance pays for it. And that's all about the money. You know, we just have to educate and I think this is this is a platform to do that. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: I guess this will probably be the last question I'm thinking. Right? 'Cause I think I think we're all right, so the last question is what's the biggest change in data you ever saw? Biggest change in level in data? SEBA: Okay, so I got I got that one. I I I know I know off the top of my head. So Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Like most dramatic change. Di-Anne Elise: You know, you know. SEBA: This this was one of those research is me search ⁓ moments that I had. ⁓ and this is actually relatively recent. This is probably within the last calendar year. So what what kind of pushed me into the realm of sports performance and and really working with obesity medicine, ⁓ was actually my own behavior. So I was about 280 pounds. ⁓ my di before I moved to North Carolina where I'm currently living, my my doctor kind of sat down with me and said, Look, ⁓ you're no longer gonna be my patient, so I can say this now without any reservation, without any issue. ⁓ you need to get your life together. Not her exact words. There were it was a bit more colorful than that. ⁓ but she basically said, Look, it's either you keep on doing what you're doing and you're gonna have a coronary by forty ⁓ you take control of your life and you figure it out. ⁓ so I took her to heart. I took that to heart and said, Cool, I've gotta do this. So I We moved down to North Carolina with my partner and my demon that I that is my cat and decided to say, cool, I'm gonna start tracking my weight, I'm gonna start tracking my calories, I'm gonna do all the things that I should be doing. I'm gonna get a trainer and do the whole thing. I lost a hundred and twenty pounds and I saw like the the the change in my just my weight, just that that permanent product, just the just the amount of body mass I lost in a year was I think the most profound Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Hmm. SEBA: kind of downward trend I've ever seen in a graph in my in my career. That was that was I think one of the most amazing things. And and and and all it was was just basic behavior analysis, just basic self management. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Hm. SEBA: Gra visual inspection of data, doing constant measurements of various things, and then just having a good reinforcement system, having a good system that reinforced those big those just those healthy behaviors over time. Simple, effective, but you know, I ran a marathon earlier this year, which if you told me five years ago that I would have run a marathon, I would have laughed at you and said, You're absolutely nuts. There's no way. So yeah, so that was that was my my most profound, I think, behavior change. Di-Anne Elise: Yeah. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Hm. Nice. Di-Anne Elise: Congratulations, yeah. Absolutely. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Hmm. Di-Anne Elise: Well compared to you with a ⁓ it's boring. What I'm gonna say is boring. I mean I w we're children. I were we're children and really and truly it was just basically this this child that I that I treat, she ⁓ has to do fifteen like books in a semester. And and basically if she didn't do that this year, or at least close to it, she would have to work in the summer also. So that's basically what happened. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Who you got? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Di-Anne Elise: And so that was that was that was it. And so she did it. She she actually and I I mean it was off the charts. I'm like, I cannot believe. I mean, she was only doing five last year. And now she's doing thirteen, fourteen books a semester. So that's that's the biggest, yeah. That is for me, that's for so that's boring comparing to yours. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Mm-hmm. SEBA: That's still amazing. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Mm. Hm. SEBA: Not at all. Are you kidding me? Like literacy is so important. Like are you kidding me? Absolutely not. Di-Anne Elise: Yes, it is. Well, you know, I got her to read I got her to read actually by telling her that if she needed to ⁓ she had the possibility of actually ⁓ driving in the future because there were a lot of teenagers in her classroom and she was only like eleven at that time. And I said if you want to and they were talking about how how do we get a driver's license. So I had to go through how do you get a driver's license? You have to you have to be fifteen, you have to take a you know, a permit test. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Yeah. Di-Anne Elise: And then you can go ahead and you're qualified to drive with somebody that's 18 or older and that has a valid driver's license. ⁓ so she didn't like she did not like to read, okay, at all. So I use that as a motivator. I said, okay, if there's a possibility of you driving when you're 15 years old with your mom, let's say, and start driving, you have to take that permit test. If you don't know how to read and understand what you're reading, how are you going to take the test and pass it? And she's a very smart girl. So that's that's that was the turning point. That was it. And that changed too. That that that was off the scale too. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: Hm. Geez, I've had I've had a bunch I had had a kid go from he was in trouble all the time to like he was student of the month, you know, 'cause we did like math flashcards, which was, you know, fun and ⁓ you know, d like s bunch of stuff like that. But I think I think the biggest change in data I've ever seen is looking at the BACB registry data. Di-Anne Elise: That's awesome. ⁓ Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: looking at how that has spiked over the past few years, man, it's like crazy. It's how much the only thing crazier is like our population and the population of human beings in in in the world. And it's such a spike and I'm like, what I like, this is Rare. You just don't see such a like rapid change like this and such a it's like exponential almost, you know? And and it's created all kinds of issues. Like we've had we have like what more than fifty percent of the behavior anal analysts out there have been working in, you know, autism for less than three years. Like we've been working for or been a behavior behavior analyst for less than three years. You know, so yeah, it's been it's created all kinds of issues and there's really no no there's like Di-Anne Elise: Very much. Mm-hmm. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: the the people who have been in the field for a long time, there it's like they're fewer and fewer and there's a lot of new people. You know, and and it's Di-Anne Elise: ⁓ yeah. Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: It's kinda like that now and then then it it feels like we're going through this whole thing again. The thing they went through with like, you know, Bear, d you know, Donald Bear and Jack Michael in the early eighties and they were talking about how there was gonna be this split between EAB and ABA and and things like that. And then there is that split with ABA and and CBS, you know, and it's almost like feels like that might be happening again almost. And and I think that ⁓ I think that's where SIBA comes. in. I think that's how Siva's gonna save the day here and maybe set some standards, you know, and and be that organization we all need it to be. Di-Anne Elise: I love it. I can't wait. SEBA: So that brings me to a kind of a really a final question that I have for you then. So if you know, if if someone's listening to this and says, you know what, I I really believe in what SIBA is saying. I really believe in this this kind of necessity of of better standards to really go, how can they get involved and how can they join SIBA? Dr. Scott O'Donnell, PhD: CB Impact dot org, right? We got the website. Di-Anne Elise: There you go. SEBA: if you are interested in joining Seva or just want to learn more about getting involved with our please go out to sevaimpact.org. go ahead and fill out our membership form. We've got a couple different membership set ⁓ kind of levels ⁓ for students, for practitioners Di-Anne Elise: much. SEBA: And things like that. And if you're interested in joining one of our committees. ⁓ again, for future episodes, we're going to be pulling in spotlights from other officers and other members to kind of talk about what our committees are doing so you can get a general idea. But ⁓ we really appreciate you taking the time to join us for our very first episode of the Evolving Behavior Analyst. ⁓ so this has been Dr. Scott, Dr. Jake, and Deanne, and we are here to answer any questions you have, just reach out to us.