SEBA: Welcome to the Evolving Behavior Analyst, where science meets practice and today's practitioners shape the future of the field. Brought to you by SIBA, unifying minds, elevating practice, and expanding impact. Jake: Well, hello and welcome to another episode of the Evolving Behavior Analyst. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Jake Pazian, joined by... Di-Anne Elise: Yannelyce Dr Scott: And I'm Dr. Scott, hi. Jake: And we are joined by Darian Oles, who is here to talk to us about her platform that she's been creating on the integration of behavior analysis into play interventions. So Darian, why don't we just jump right in? Tell us a little bit about you, your background, kind of where, what landed you where you're currently at in the field right now. Dariyn Olas: Yeah. So I'm a board certified behavior analyst. I've been a BCBA for about four and a half years and before that I was an RBT for about four years. My interest in play therapy in general, I think it's just been kind of an evolving journey. My very first RBT job was in a very traditional like table time, DTT setting. And then I went into in-home therapy, which very quickly, you you don't do that all the time and it gets into more naturalistic routines. So I would say when I started in Di-Anne Elise: . Dariyn Olas: home therapy transitioning into a very play-based multidisciplinary environment, I got really interested in defining play-based therapy for ABA. This isn't something that you're really taught in grad school, so really seeking resources about how to do it really well in the ways that behavior analysts tend to care about, such as like, you know, we want to make sure that we're hitting all the clients goals. We want to make sure, especially with early learners, that if they need more learning opportunities that we're doing that, but also like not making it work Di-Anne Elise: . Dariyn Olas: at the same time and making it playful and making it to where the learner wants to engage. So those things kind of led me into PlayPath and developing that. PlayPath is really just a visualized framework of things that I've pieced together, especially when I was on a multidisciplinary team. of things that really helped me as a behavior analyst learn how to do ABA within play. My interest in toddler intervention really just comes from my love working with toddlers. This is where I do Di-Anne Elise: you Dariyn Olas: most of my continuing education and I'm an ESDM certified therapist so I just went in on toddler intervention. It's what I'm really passionate about. Jake: So let's take a quick rewind here. So you mentioned Play Path. So tell us about what that is and what that platform does. Dariyn Olas: Yeah, so Play Path is a platform that helps parents and also clinicians who want to learn how to support early communication skills in toddlers through play. Early communication skills specifically meaning the skills that typically come right before language development. So pre-linguistic skills such as joint attention, imitation, understanding language, really early expressive language, even as early as just like reaching to request. So that's what Play Path does. Di-Anne Elise: Yes, as an infant and toddler developmental specialist, actually, we love I actually apply behavior analysis interventions also with my little kiddos. There's from zero to three years old. And it has been very challenging at first when I first started because I'm like, OK, so I'm in behavior analysis. And what do I do? Because you're really supposed to do coaching. Dariyn Olas: Mm-hmm. Di-Anne Elise: But at the same time, Obviously, you have to kind of do parent training at the same time. So I kind of developed myself my own little framework. And I love the fact that you did that because I believe that not only, know, the infant and child development specialist should have some kind of framework, but also the other providers that, you know, that actually see children that, you know, are in the infancies. As a matter of fact, I do I do work with early steps and which is a government agency I don't know if you guys had know about that, but I do work with them and they're they're trying so hard to certified Certified the ITDS and which is infinite toddler developmental specialist through a program The only and I was a guinea pig for that program as a matter of fact, they formulated some kind of framework, but I feel like, you know, behavioral analysts, if they would apply some of the interventions that we have and that we can take further, that would be actually a better place for the infant and toddler development specialists. So thank you so much for doing that. you should approach all these government agencies that are trying that to, you know, create programs for children in their infancy. You really should. Dariyn Olas: Yeah, I really appreciate that. I like so early into this process that really it's just been like developing the app, getting out there. We have a feedback for him because we want to hear all the feedback. But I think you mentioned something so interesting and I agree like it really starts with that place of, know, it's developmentally appropriate if you're working with a child zero to three. Play is your intervention. It's not developmentally appropriate for any child for that to be all table time. That was a starting point of me getting really interested in play schemas, because that's not something that really... branches out into behavior analysis or is going to be there because it's more into like cognitive psychology. But I found it so helpful from a preference assessment standpoint as a behavior analyst is understanding repeated patterns in play and what that means for the child. And when I had a name for it, it felt so much easier to connect. And that's a starting point is being able to gain that child's attention and enjoying that play in order to do a trial. So that's where my interest in play schemas really started primarily with a client who at the time, and again, like you said, you have to coach other people on this. So you kind of figuring out yourself, but this child's main form of play was just lining up objects. And it appeared that the client wasn't interested in much else other than doing that. And the staff were asking me questions of like, well, this is a play-based environment. Everything to do is play. What do I do? Like, how do I get in there? Clients not even looking at me. Like, how do I embed trials and anything like that? And this was when I was working on a multi-disciplinary team about occupational therapy. friend of mine was the one that gave me a PowerPoint on play schemas. And that's when I found, learned about positioning play schema. And just having a name was enough to be able to get so many more ideas about how to join that child's play, how to look up different ways. Cause there's a lot of free ideas. Like I just went on Pinterest and found a bunch of activities, but then it was so cool introducing those activities to this client because I got that joint I got that looking at me and that gaining attention that excite me because I understood. So that's a play schema part of play path is that play. I made an assessment based off like the motive. It's inspired by the motivation assessment scale, but it's basically just breaking down the nine dominant play schemas with equal parts characteristics. And then you just answer through it. And then it weights your averages of like most preferred schema to less to Di-Anne Elise: you Dariyn Olas: help guide that. Di-Anne Elise: That's wonderful. Dr Scott: So this Jake: So. Dr Scott: is interesting. You're talking about they're already playing, right? And you're watching them play and you're just you're determining their, you know, their scheme of play. For kids, play is learning. So they're already learning while you're, you know, you're watching them learn and they're playing, But what point do you stop like their learning shifted to or even shifted to what you need them to learn? You know, at what point do you say like, all Dariyn Olas: Yeah. Dr Scott: right, well, I see you setting this stuff up, but I need you to set this stuff up. Dariyn Olas: And that is very important because we definitely so I where the play scheme assessment is helpful is just understanding that starting point. So you start with, you being able to gain the child's attention, join play and start there, but you can scaffold it and you should evolve it into more complex plays such as functional play and conventional play. And play path has examples of how to do that within that play schema, but you're making sure you're addressing those earlier skills first. What this could look like, for example, like a position in play schema. If a child is only interested in like lining or organizing things up, once I'm able to join in on that play, maybe functional play can look like you start with lining up the dolls to go to the house and then to enter. the house or go to like a grocery store. Like you're kind of embedding what they find motivating to play into the conventional play idea or functional play idea to help make it more motivating and introduce those concepts. I really think motivation is key because I have seen it just done in different ways but I think if we jump there too early, we can lose the child if they're not motivated, or it kind of turns more into task completion at that point if they're not socially motivated to engage in that play. Another example is I worked with a kiddo whose primary play schema was dropping, known as trajectory, and that nicely evolved into we were able to teach him basketball, beanbag toss, throwing the ball back and forth, but it still had that trajectory component in it. So I don't know if that answers your question, but it definitely, we definitely should still be supporting those kids in the further development of other complex skills, but I think understanding the play schema helps draft out what that could look like while still keeping that motivation intact. Or they might get out of that play schema and develop enough complex play skills that they do more than what they started with. Dr Scott: I mean, certainly answered my question, but then now I have another question when you were talking about. So you mentioned motivation, Dariyn Olas: Yeah Dr Scott: but I also know, you know, for a fact firsthand that schedules of reinforcement have a lot to do with response rate. You know, when we could look at two different like, you know, rates of reinforcement, and then we could look at two different response rates because they're on two different schedules of reinforcement. I'm just curious, does that play, does that come into play at all with play like schedules of reinforcement? And how would that come into? and how might you manipulate that or measure that? Dariyn Olas: So it like schedules a reinforcement within play. I think what I would be interested in and what I have my RBT's measure within the pairing protocol is trying to understand interactions in play and that they're finding us reinforcing. how often are you alternating between the object to us during play? How often are you wanting, maybe giving us the object to help you in play? How often are you accepting commenting during play? This can look different in Kettos, but I think there's different ways to measure that. objectively so we can see how often that they're bidding to us to join in on their play versus it also can be if a child's not tolerant of maybe us getting into their play I might start with like how often do you let me help you in play how often you know if there's rigidity involved how often can I switch to play a little bit so I think there's different ways to measure that Di-Anne Elise: I also think that also the environment has a lot to do with it. And that's one of the things that, you know, they stress in the, call it ITDS. ARENA is also, they use a 5Q, which also involves also the environment that they're in. And we assess that, you know, at the same time. So if the child doesn't really respond to play, is it the environment that's actually impeding that situation. Just like you said, know, maybe you can get somebody outside, from the outside to come in, you can go to the grocery store and interact with other people. That's exactly what we also do. Dariyn Olas: Yeah, the environment can be huge and there's a lot of really great recommendations from my group BSDM of like the environment can impact so much how kids are responding to play or how they're responding to us as a play partner. And every kid is so different. Some kids might need less distractions during play. I definitely had to do that where if there's a lot of toys going out, I put a blanket over and like, hey, it's me and you and this object. So Di-Anne Elise: Right. For real. Dariyn Olas: yeah, there's definitely environmental arrangement involved. Di-Anne Elise: Absolutely. Jake: Now, I do want to get some clarification. you're throwing around this word schema a lot. And so I think a Dariyn Olas: Yes. Jake: lot of behavior analysts are going to either, A, not be familiar with that at all, or if they've got a background in psych, they're going be going, okay, that sounds more like cognitive, like, you know, I know about cognitive schemas. Dariyn Olas: Mm-hmm. Jake: What is a schema and how does that kind of fit within this idea of play as a construct? Dariyn Olas: Yeah, so within this, definition of like play schema. Schema really just refers to that it's a repetitive pattern that you're noticing in play. And some kids, this is more clear than others. I would say kids that I work with that seem to have really early forms of play, you see it dominate the most. Like a kid who's solely for play is spinning in circles or only interested in spinning. A kid who is only like dropping things above their head. A kid who is only taking the train and kind of looking at it out of their peripheral. So you're noticing that there's a very dominant repetitive theme scheme. in their play and then play schema is categorizing that into different categories of what that could mean. Jake: Interesting. how would you, so if we were to try to behavior analyze this for a second, if we were to try to put this into behavior analytic taxonomy, how would you argue that a schema is different than say just a repertoire of behaviors that are kind of constellated around one particular response class I'm trying to square the circle because I see what you're saying and it makes perfect sense But I'm trying to think for for kind of the hardcore BCBA is the hardcore behavior Di-Anne Elise: thank you. Jake: analysts in the room who are? Dr Scott: Yeah. Jake: Automatically having the whole kind of no, it's play like this is outside my scope of confidence I can't I can't think about this. How do we realize Dariyn Olas: Mm-hmm. Di-Anne Elise: Mm-hmm. Jake: that you know, we really are talking about very similar things It's just we're using two different words to talk about the same concept Di-Anne Elise: Mm-hmm. Dariyn Olas: Yes, yeah, I yeah, absolutely. And I totally acknowledge that I went very left field with this concept of kind of taking the cognitive psychology and then turning into like preference assessment and behavior analysis. But I think where that can really blend itself all together is like you said, a lot of it is usually just terminology that's different when you're working on a multidisciplinary team and you're working on parents, you do have to learn how to adapt and kind of use different languages to explain different things. Di-Anne Elise: Well, when you are working with other providers, you do have to kind of adapt and kind of explain it in a way that they are going to understand. So I understand your point of view in terms of terminology is concerned because you have to basically, and also parents in terms of parent training, you have to be able to translate our behavior analyst lingo or jargon to parents and also other providers. That's for sure. I understand what you're saying. Jake: And honestly, I look at this and go, there is nothing outside the scope of our practice about talking about play. Play is a behavior. Di-Anne Elise: Uh-huh. Jake: That is what it is. And so just because a play therapist might use a different language or might approach things, I think with a different taxonomy, it doesn't mean that we can't collaborate together. I think that's one of the biggest limitations that I see. And so I'm really excited that you're talking about these and kind of incorporating these components because if nothing else, it helps our intervention. be more well-rounded, and also just be more developmentally appropriate. Dariyn Olas: Yeah, and it depends on, you know, the kettle. Like, I think PlayPath is definitely most fit for like zero to three range. It makes sense to kind of, I think it's just a tool in the tool belt when it comes to like the clients that you're working with, but predominantly with toddlers, like it's mostly developmentally appropriate to try to teach through play. But as far as I think, Jake, you mentioned earlier, like how is it different than just like a child developing play within like a certain response class? I don't know if it's all that different. I think it's almost saying the same thing, which is like two different languages. We're kind of decoding it for like behavior Di-Anne Elise: Mm-hmm. Jake: Right, that's right. Dariyn Olas: analysts. Yes. Jake: Exactly. That's what I was trying to get. I'm sitting here going, exactly, because I'm trying to make sure that I understand it correctly, right? And so I'm trying Dariyn Olas: Yes. Jake: to take what you're saying in this and I'm trying to like make it fit in my behavior analyst kind of language. But I think it's at the end of the day, I think it's such an important point to say there is that equivalence. And so when we, you know, if we maybe are trained by an old school clinician who says, no, play therapy is bad, you can't do this, we can kind of fire back and say, no, it's still within the scope of our practice. is behavior is behavior is behavior. Sure, they're using a different word, but we can absolutely look at it through our lens and interpret and contextualize it into something that is within the scope of our practice. Di-Anne Elise: Absolutely. Dariyn Olas: And I think what I find really interesting about, like, you know, even keep not even thinking about. play schemas at the moment. But even if a behavior analyst is trying to identify things in play, we do preference assessments. So we identify like what the child likes, like what social interactions do they like? What toys do they like? What play activities? Why not? And that's the part of play schema. Why not the actual motivation within it? Like what repetitive actions are you doing the most? And what about that is reinforcing to you? My first step at attempting to conceptualize or at least categorize it is making that assessment. But I think that's worth exploring within behavior analysis is that motivation piece. within their play and how do we understand and assess that so that we can use it to inform assessment when we're working with little kids. Jake: It's funny, I'm having a complete full circle moment in this particular moment. I'm very sorry to segue into this to an anecdote here, I'm having a moment where my mind is absolutely completely blown open right now. So when I first started in behavior analysis close to 20 years ago, I was doing a rotation in an autism intervention Di-Anne Elise: Yeah. You Jake: program and my supervisor told me, okay, Di-Anne Elise: . Jake: we're gonna do a preference assessment, but it's gonna be a little bit different. We know that this person really likes to throw things. a preference, we're gonna do a paired stimulus preference assessment, but we're gonna have different objects and have different capacities or ways that they can fly through the air. And we're gonna see which one do they like. And we're gonna use that as the basis of our preference assessment. And I remember thinking to myself, that is such a weird... Di-Anne Elise: Okay. Jake: way to think about a preference assessment. I had always been taught that preference assessments were about trying to identify this kind of broad stimulus class versus, now I need to these minutia of how do you like this one particular stimulus? And I never understood the utility Di-Anne Elise: You Jake: in that capacity until you started talking about having these play schemas and being really able to drill down really granular into this and then use that as a means to for... 20 years later, I finally get it. So thank you, Emily Biesecker, for teaching me Di-Anne Elise: You Jake: that 20 years ago. I finally understand it. I finally get it. Di-Anne Elise: Ha ha ha ha. Dariyn Olas: Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, I imagine... that preference assessment goes there and similar to when I look at this is that you typically are Di-Anne Elise: . Dariyn Olas: going to use this concept when you notice that there's a very dominant form of play that the child is only engaging in. And I think you can kind of help scaffold it out of there. what I like about the play schema or preference assessment there is that it's informing ways to do that that still keeps that motivation intact versus jumping too far. And you should jump and teach other forms of play that's not within that play schema too, but it can be too much if you're going to go from throwing to, like I see make the cargo beep beep. That's a little too far if you're trying to jump from that to like functional play or really only focusing on functional play only and not considering what they're finding motivating play there. So it's more of like a bridge to kind of help from the starting point to more functional play and some ideas to like what that could look like. Di-Anne Elise: so what one question you mentioned that you that this could be applied to children zero to three. So how would you apply for a child that's really early development, like maybe zero to maybe six months? How would you apply your your construct to that age group? Dariyn Olas: Yeah, absolutely. think that, again, I think a lot of it starts with assessment. I would be interested with that jumping into the early communication assessment that's included in Play Path. it's early communication in terms of like, will show you like if you answer a series of questions for like zero to three skills, will show you strengths and weaknesses domain. It's not prescriptive in nature. I don't want it to be, you know, you definitely should be working with like a therapist when it comes like nailing down specific goals, but it will highlight like what domains are strengths versus weaknesses for the skills that typically come right before language development. So I would be interested in narrowing those down first. And then you can still take the play schema assessment for a zero to six month old, kind of depending on what they're doing. If they're not even playing yet, I might focus a little bit more on just like maybe responding to playful sounds or doing like sensory social routines. So it kind of depends if they're showing yet an emerging play schema, if that play schema assessment would be helpful. Dr Scott: I want to hear about your background a little bit. There's three things I want to hear about, about your background specifically. I want to hear about the dual masters. I want to hear about how you're a graduate research assistant at KU Medical Center. And I want to hear about the National Guard. Dariyn Olas: Okay, wow, those are all so different journeys. So that's super fun. So I'll start with the dual master. So I got my master's of business administration because I thought I was going to pivot out of ABA at one point of my career. So that's where that came from. Now it has reinvented itself to I'm re-energized within the field and wanting to use it more so for like expanding into like play path or things like that. But the MBA was kind of a journey in itself. Dr Scott: That's like a real OBM path though. So if I looked at Di-Anne Elise: Yes. Dr Scott: your background, be like, she's an OBM-er. Di-Anne Elise: Mm-hmm. Dariyn Olas: Yeah, yeah. I'm really early at just kind of exploring different pathways with this. I think right now the biggest one that's turning into his play path, but I'm very open to the journey. I kind of just got it for funsies. I wasn't really sure about the plan at the time. I was just like, man, I'm not sure if I'm going to do ABA forever. I'm just being very honest. So I got my ABA. Dr Scott: That's right. No, that's okay. That's why I got my PhD, just for fun. Di-Anne Elise: Yeah, sounds like me. have I wear my hats too. it's everybody's like, you do this and you do that. I'm really big in LBM actually. but it's really fun. You know, being having an entrepreneurial mind and also just exploring different things in life actually gives you a lot more experience than than you think. I feel Dariyn Olas: Yes, absolutely. And I'm a full believer that it will really shine and have its place. I think it's just still a little early for me, but it was something that I Dr Scott: Yeah, no doubt. No doubt. Dariyn Olas: did to, for sure, patent. go into a certain path. And then trauma-informed care. So I did that when I was in my master's program. And I got into that because when I was in my master's program, that was the time that I realized how much controversy there is around ABA. So I got a little scared. And I started really looking into almost everything about ABA. went kind of a deep dive into the controversy and then also into different forms of ABA that really introduced me into trauma-informed care. So I'm a person that when I get interested in something I really like to research and know Di-Anne Elise: you Dariyn Olas: the ins and outs of it. that led into becoming a trauma-informed graduate research assistant. I had a really great professor at that time who wrote a paper on trauma-informed care and I just kind of asked her about it and then it turned into doing a paper together and doing research. Really the research that we did was just trying to compare behavior analysis in trauma-informed care and also similar professions who are working with the same population, so like social workers and like what our level of knowledge was in comparison. So that's what that was. And then Air National Guard, I signed up for the military when I was 17 and I went to boot camp two weeks after high school. And I did the Air National Guard for six years. I was able to pursue school and do everything through that. So that's my Air National Guard story. I was material management journeyman, so nothing to do with behavior analysis, but I did logistics for like the military and it was a really great experience. Dr Scott: So let me ask you, how would you use, like if you knew them what you know now, how would you use behavior analysis in the Air National Guard? Dariyn Olas: That's a really, really great question. Gosh, that's such a good question. How would I use that within the Air National Guard? Dr Scott: If you said you were doing logistics, I know logistics has Dariyn Olas: Mm-hmm. Dr Scott: a lot of tracking and moving around and certainly a lot of numbers. You could look at all the interactions between people and stuff like that. I wonder if that's where I would be going with it, looking at how many interactions to get a product or something like that. But I don't know. Where did you find it clogged up? Where would behavior analysis help and kind of clean things up? Dariyn Olas: I think towards the tail of my career, my first thought was honestly kind of recruiting and having a plan for like progression in terms of who was going to fill the next test, but also like job training. When you get into the military, at least my experience, you get in, you're kind of given a big manual and you're like, here you go. And then you kind of learn your job that way. So I think I would use behavior analysis in terms of like job training specifically on the job. And Di-Anne Elise: . Dr Scott: Mm-hmm. Dariyn Olas: maybe some sort of like feedback loop in terms of like, or even measuring how initial airmen are doing on the job and like their performance and like having some sort of like checkpoints like that. There's like annual checkpoints, but it's more so to do with like objective things like how many missions did you do? And they kind of pull numbers of like how many boxes you delivered or things like that. But I think like more performance type things before then. I probably implement that. Dr Scott: All right, well, you did great on that question. Are you ready for the curve ball? You ready for the tough one? Dariyn Olas: do my best. Dr Scott: It's the future. Behavior analysis has developed a new technology. If Di-Anne Elise: . Dr Scott: you had your way. What would it allow us to do? Dariyn Olas: That's a great question. What would the new technology allow us to do? I think it would be really helpful because this is a very hot topic in the field right now, but it would be able to analyze a client and then be able to prescribe based on whatever variables it's analyzing how like the exact therapy prescription hours that that client needs or what would really benefit for best outcomes. That is such a big topic in the field and that would be so nice because then that would be crystal clear with you know therapy models and amount and what's appropriate like I feel like that's just very big right now. That would be really Dr Scott: wow. Yeah. Dariyn Olas: really convenient because then it would take all the guesswork out. So that's what that would be my vote. Di-Anne Elise: Good. Another question Dr Scott: What a great answer. Di-Anne Elise: for you. Yeah, that was very good answer. I like that. Another question. What motivated you to kind of branch out into play therapy? Dariyn Olas: Yeah, I genuinely love working with toddlers. I don't know what I just I love play and I love working with the little so I think I again, I really like to deep dive. I think that's why it led me into like early start Denver model certification, research articles related to play like it's just something I genuinely love to do. So that's the path I've been pursuing my certifications the most in CEs. So I think that's what led to, just naturally, love, love, love, love working with toddlers. I think it's so much fun. Di-Anne Elise: And second question, so what led you go through the ABA path? I know you said you did mention, got Dariyn Olas: yeah. Di-Anne Elise: a little scared, you know, throughout the way, you you didn't know if you really wanted to do ABA, but what led you there? What led you to, you know what? I wanna be an ABA professional, okay? Dariyn Olas: Yeah, It started during my undergraduate degree when I was a registered behavior technician. I didn't know what ABA was at the time, but I found out how to be an RBT. I think as many professionals do when they start as a RBT, you kind of fall into ABA. like, wow, this is a thing. This is great. That's what led me into it, which is starting out as a registered behavior technician. I had a really, really wonderful supervisor during my experience with in-home therapy, who was really my first example of ABA in terms of like now. naturalistic routines and like her teaching. So she really inspired me to want to pursue ABA. Di-Anne Elise: Okay, thank you. you for that. Yeah, a lot of people is through experiences. I mean, I've known people who do it just because they fall into it and other people's because they have a family member. they might have autism or you know, something like that along those lines. So I'm always curious to know. Yeah, thank you. Dr Scott: mentioned you'd be like willing to like branch out you're open to like new areas and stuff like that. Let's say you had a magic mentor right this person could be an expert in any with any population with any subject right and they said I'll mentor you what would you want them studying who would you want them working with where you can branch out to that area and learn and a practice in that area. Dariyn Olas: Yeah, I think it's a mix of things. think as far as domain. I really love what I currently do with toddler intervention. So if I could get mentors for toddler intervention, Sally Rogers and Geraldine Dawson, that would be great. But I would also be really interested in having a mentor. I'm really interested in ABA technology. I think there's a lot of nuance to that. So I would be interested in someone who I'm really interested to see the future for ABA in technology. I feel like that is a big, wide, open area of what Dr Scott: Mmm. Dariyn Olas: that could be and what that could look like in so many different ways. So I think those are the two types of mentors I would be really interested in seeking out. Dr Scott: Where would direction would you go? Would you go AI or would you go wearables or would like? How would you? How would you approach it? Dariyn Olas: I think I have a lot of questions about AI. I would love to talk to somebody who is working in AI and healthcare and getting deep diving into how they're doing that with like ethics and HIPAA and all of that. But also like, there's just so many different ways that can go. So I would be really, Di-Anne Elise: Okay. and Dariyn Olas: really interested in having conversation with someone Dr Scott: Hmm. Dariyn Olas: about that. Dr Scott: Are you familiar? Do you know Derek Reed or Di-Anne Elise: you Dr Scott: David Cox? Do you know them? I'll hook you up. Yeah, I'll hook you up. Dariyn Olas: and do not. Okay, I would love to have a conversation because I'm very, very open. just I feel in a lot more, you know, there's people that know a lot more about like AI and ABA right now. But I feel like, you know, for people like me who are seeing this things like that, it just brings about a lot of questions. I think it'd be a really interesting conversation about how all of that could potentially come together. Jake: am curious, because I'd like to get more information. because you're talking about the future of AV technology, I kind of feel like that's what Play Path is intended to be, though, is to kind of be that Dariyn Olas: Mm-hmm. Jake: technology. I would argue, I think you're more in line with that than I think you're giving yourself credit for. So tell us a little bit about what is the platform? We've talked, we kind of danced around, you know, what schemas are and all this thing. Dariyn Olas: Mm-hmm. Jake: has the assessment bees and all this really cool stuff. But what is Play Path? And why would an average BCBA, regardless of where they're working with, or they're working in any kind of pediatric sector, why would this be a helpful thing for them? Dariyn Olas: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So I'll start with why it's helpful and then I'll get into what specifically Play Path looks like. I think why it's helpful is just from my experience with working with other BCBAs, especially in the early intervention field, there's a lot of BCBAs who are very interested in play-based therapy, but were just like me in the beginning where there's like, don't know how though. Like don't know where to start. So I think that's where Play Path's helpful. In terms of what Play Path specifically looks like, Play Path is an app that is accessible on Android and iPhone. And you go into the app, if you're a clinician, you'll just wave creating a child profile. You don't put information in there. Parents will do that. But you're able to access basically I kind of this is where my ABRie brain comes in is that the setup is very friendly to like BST training what a lot of behavior analysts know. So it starts with defining all the new or different things like play schema or conventional play. So it has a definitions page. It has assessments for play schemas and early communication. So it really gives you feedback about that. And really what I imagine Di-Anne Elise: you Dariyn Olas: what behavior analysts are doing is that they're taking this app. and they have a client in mind that they're a little stuck with on like where to get started in play. So you have two assessment results, one for early communication domains and breaking down strengths and weaknesses. Di-Anne Elise: you Dariyn Olas: And then you have results of what that child's dominating play schema is. So that's the narrative part. And then you have specific video models. So play path breaks down depending on, let's just say your results was introductory play schema. It will filter and show you how to embed early communication skills within that specific schema across understanding communication domain, expressive communication domain, you're able to go through that library and see the actual video models. As well as it's split up into three parts. They're all very short, but one is just background into the skill. I don't know how early a BCBA is in their journey, so it'll explain the skill a bit more. Then there's a specific play schema snippet, and then there's a video that just loops back into like what this play schema is. So it has those two components for, I think, Lens of Self-Wilder BST training and then the from there depending on if they want to use it for staff or parent training can do more of like the rehearsal and feedback portion. But that's what Play Path specifically is when you get into the app. Jake: So it's really a one-stop shop for behavior analysts to really, number one, help advance their skill set, but also find a way to meaningfully apply this. I know you're talking a little bit about it. I know it's not AI informed, but it kind of has that same kind of feel of where it'll kind of tell you where to go within the spectrum, give you information to help you kind of conceptualize what you're doing, and then give you a readout, okay, well, this Di-Anne Elise: Okay. you Jake: is what we would recommend next steps as far as that goes. I think it's a great idea. And it's also, when you think about what treatments are, that's what they're intended to be. Here's what it works for. Here's how to do the skill. Now that you have a rudimentary understanding, go apply it in a way that's meaningful. Dariyn Olas: Mm hmm. Yeah, exactly. I think that's the perfect way to define play pass is I very much see it as an app that defines a starting point in play and then helps develop that starting point. And then you go from there and then just guide the start of intervention when you're working with toddlers. Di-Anne Elise: So what kind of professionals could use your app other than behavior analysts? Dariyn Olas: Yeah, the app is completely, so we're going through the process of getting it published soon, but it's going to be completely open and available on Android and iPhone. So I think it's beyond BCBAs. It could be speech pathologists. It could be OT. I think there's certainly overlap here, especially all of it's within play. So I think it lends itself really nicely to other. other disciplines, but also I'm really hoping that it gets to parents too, especially if parents are on the wait list or maybe they don't have access to parent coaching immediately. I hope it makes that avenue as well. Dr Scott: What is that opportunity there for the parents? you think this should be more of a clinician-led thing, or do you think this should be more of a parent-led thing? Dariyn Olas: Yeah, that's a really great question. So where I try to keep play path making sure it's not dipping too much into like, because I hear what you're saying, like, you should definitely be working with a clinician in terms of like defining very specific goals, I think I tried to keep play path very educational. So because really, when I think about parents, there's really such a lack of really accessible information. If you're interested in play-based therapy, how to do that help is in your hands is a great resource. So that is one that I could think of, but there's just not a lot out there. So really this is just, it is not like a medical advice tool. It's more of just like an educational tool of a framework that works well when I'm working with toddlers, but it's very much more an educational tool. Dr Scott: Well, even so, like in my experience, not all of the parents are getting the help that they need. There's a lot on waiting lists and it's like, yeah, should you be working with a, you know, like with a clinician? Absolutely. Do you have a clinician available? No, there's not a clinician available. Dariyn Olas: Exactly. Dr Scott: you know, so I'm just wondering if like, all right, should it, can it be a thing where like you consult with a clinician and the parent does it? Cause the best. outcomes I've seen have come from like when I'm working with a kid and when the parent is watching me and they start doing the things I do with the kid and they start having success and then I really start seeing Dariyn Olas: Mm-hmm. Dr Scott: things change. Dariyn Olas: Yeah, absolutely. That's the exact kind of feedback that we're hoping to get with Play Path. Right now, it's just bringing kind of the education and concept out there, but then getting a lot of feedback because we want to be able to expand the app to be as helpful as it can be for clinicians and parents. We have certainly thought about that. Like I know there's opportunity to maybe have like office hours with the clinician. I'm not sure what that could look like, but definitely being able to have more accessibility in maintaining that clinical integrity. trying to reach more parents, like you said, depending on where they're at, it could be really scarce what options they have and what information is accessible to them. But we're very open to different ideas of how we could connect that clinician and that parent through Play Path. And we're hoping to get more clarity of that with the feedback form. Di-Anne Elise: that would be great also because I'm thinking of of of when I've been a behavioral consultant. in the past, I've had clients where they don't know where to go. Like they don't really know what path because they don't know what their diagnosis is. They don't know anything. That would be really helpful for them to go in the app and just kind of get educated, like you said, and it will give you give them Dariyn Olas: Mm-hmm. Di-Anne Elise: a little more insight of what do I do with my child in order to help them. So I see that that being an avenue. So Dariyn Olas: Yeah, absolutely. regardless, like if a parent seeking help, they're going to find information, they're going to seek help. So I think I'm trying to put a tool out there that is a little bit more informed in terms of someone who is really trying to specialize in tolerance and trying to offer something helpful. Because even just when I was looking at different resources, mean, ESDM training was really the first like aha moment of like, this is like so well thought out of like how to do this with Mplay. But ESDM training as a whole, but it's become more accessible. Di-Anne Elise: Mm hmm. Dariyn Olas: with the free rbt one before that you know just wasn't as accessible so that's where I was thinking of like different solutions or noticing like different frameworks are working me as working for me as well and then conceptualizing that into the app Jake: So this is very old intervention. I don't even know if you can still buy licenses for this anymore. this is back when I was coming from graduate school. There was a really cool manualized computer-based treatment called Beating the Blues. It was a mindfulness-based cognitive therapy for depression. It was really popular in Europe. I never made it in the States, but I was so intrigued by it because it was you could only buy the license as a clinician, but you could have as many patients on that particular license as you wanted. And it was a completely manualized 10 weeks. You would come into the office, you'd sit down at a computer, you'd do a 30 minute. Basically psychoeducation piece it would assign you homework and then a clinician could manually approve you to move on to the next module So it was still maintained by a clinician, but it gave individuals who kind of to your point talking about her about your parents again a waitlist them and I have access to a clinician But there's something it was the same idea that you know, maybe intensive therapy isn't for you Maybe you don't need Dariyn Olas: Mm-hmm. Jake: a therapist to sit down with you and talk to you for six hours Or you could do this six-hour training on your own time still overseeing by a clinician. And I see there's some nice parallels there. And it was highly successful in all of the European studies. I wonder if that's an avenue here as well to kind of say, okay, yes, it's run by a clinician. You know, there's someone overseeing it, but it's kind of as to for I hate to say it like this, but it's a stopgap measure. It's a you're on a waitlist. We're trying to get this here's something that you can do at home still overseeing Dariyn Olas: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep. Jake: but provides more flexibility. Dariyn Olas: Yeah, absolutely. That was definitely another. Di-Anne Elise: Yeah. Dariyn Olas: thing that we were thinking about with Play Path. Yeah, and that's kind what we're hoping to hear with. We're just kind of doing full open beta testing. We're hoping to get as many thoughts and everything as possible and looking at that data and then kind of finalizing Play Path in regards to its current round one form and yeah, definitely how to define connecting that clinician to that parent. Because really that's a big purpose of Play Path beyond the education is that it is more of a clinician-based tool to help educate for. parents and those who are not as familiar with play-based therapy or where to start. Jake: So I think that kind of then leads me to, think one of the biggest questions I have, and I think this is one of the most important ones, how do you educate behavior analysts about integrating this into their practice? Considering that I think many of us will come with baggage of being told play therapists aren't doing evidence-based practice, or this isn't behavior analysis, you can't do this. How do you square that with them and say, but it though. Dariyn Olas: I think a really helpful starting point for me was looking into naturalistic developmental behavioral interventions. And there's actually a really great research paper that was defining, is this ABA? And they were critiquing NDBI and kind of defining that as ESDM ABA. So looking at some of those research articles, because really with NDBI, it's just accounting for understanding child development and what's appropriate in regards to child development, which majority of behavior analysts in their master's programs aren't going to get educated on. also still incorporating behavior analysis, still incorporating principles of ABA, because ABA is really powerful. So I think research is really helpful. then also Play Path, I really just try to break everything down into like very small steps and concepts. So I kind of try to break it down that way too. So depending on whether behavior analysis is starting, you don't have to start with the whole library. You could just start with one concept and try it out and see how it feels in terms of you know, maybe you just want to work on the child orienting to you during play, and you just want to focus on that video model. So I try to break it down into like very small steps and make it accessible of getting some ideas of like what to try out and where to start. Di-Anne Elise: one step further, I guess, in terms of spinning off, Jake is, how would you promote it? I have a background in marketing and public relations and communications, so that's my brain. How would you promote this? Dariyn Olas: Yeah, that is a wonderful question. That's where I'm working on my MBA skills and trying some things out. What I currently have is my LinkedIn page and trying to find like my audience on LinkedIn is very, for the most part, very aligned with like NDB, ABA. So that's my first avenue that I'm trying out is getting the word out on LinkedIn, starting to post about it. As soon as we have the links up, it's going to be on that page and completely live for everyone to join. So that's where I'm hoping to get more of a clinician funnel, then I'm hoping if clinicians like it, that that will be referrals to parents. Because I think that's where it's probably the most tricky for me right now is like large access to parents. You know, I have access within my range. I'm a practicing clinician, but that's the biggest thing I have for marketing right now is the LinkedIn page and just starting there and for people that are interested in buying them to follow and then posting the open links there when they're ready. to try it out and get honest feedback on it and go from there. Di-Anne Elise: And do you think this should be strictly for clinicians and providers and then maybe refer them to the parents that maybe don't have the resources at the moment to seek therapy? Do you think that would be a better Dariyn Olas: Yeah, that's Di-Anne Elise: avenue or do you think that parents, can just kind of promote to parents and say, here you go, I have education for you just in case, and you're not. clinician, you're not a provider and they can go ahead and use it. Would it be that kind of friendly? Dariyn Olas: Yeah, right now, Playpath is pretty open either way, just because it is going to be open and available until we define it and we get feedback on it. But I very much more so imagine us defining it. fully more being like clinician connect to parents and being able to kind of help with that stopgap with the waitlist. Cause I think it just makes the most sense in regards to like that parent is already waiting for services or looking for services. So I can see that avenue making the most sense in terms of like connecting. And then the clinician both having some educational play path and the parent so that when the client does get into services, hopefully, you know, they're off to a better start and maybe already have a little bit of relationship formed and then. Yeah, starting working with the therapist. Di-Anne Elise: Yeah, I agree with Dr Scott: Mm-hmm. Di-Anne Elise: that. Because a lot of providers and clinicians, they would be more apt to share it. If the parents don't have access to it, actually, Dariyn Olas: Mm-hmm. Di-Anne Elise: well, everybody can be on it. They probably are not going to maybe possibly want to share it because everybody has access to it. that was Dariyn Olas: Mm-hmm. Di-Anne Elise: my thinking. Dr Scott: Darien, you get to put a message in a bottle and send it to yourself in the past and give yourself advice. What are you telling yourself? Dariyn Olas: I would tell first year BCBA me that you do not need to know all the things yet. Like it's actually really normal that your first year feels like chaos and it's gonna be Di-Anne Elise: Ha Dariyn Olas: okay and it's gonna get better and better each year because you're naturally just going to learn, you you're gonna learn from other clinicians, you're gonna learn through your CEs, you're just gonna learn from experience. So if you're a new behavior analyst and it's your first year, it's gonna be good. You can find a mentor, you can get CEs. But yeah, don't feel like you have to have all the answers up front because behavior analysis is really cool. It can also be just very broad. So yeah, finding what you really love and your niche within behavior analysis and pursuing that, I think, is what I would tell earlier BCBA me. Dr Scott: And say someone listens to this and they're like, my God, she is so cool. I want to be just like her. What would you tell them? What path would they take to be just like you and do what you're doing? Dariyn Olas: I mean, I'm on LinkedIn. I'm open to chat. love, I love collaborating with people and I love mentorship. So I mean, I'm more than happy to chat and see where they're at. I think help is in your hands is a really good one. If you're interested in like toddler intervention, ESDM training, that's completely free. And now SOAR Autism Center also has a free ESDM training for RBT. So I think both of those in terms of just free resources would be also really great to start if you're interested in working with toddlers. Dr Scott: That's terrific. And then what Di-Anne Elise: Right? Dr Scott: about schooling? What path would you have them? I because I imagine that the MBA is going to serve you now with what you're doing, not so much clinically, but growing the model and expanding this model. would you, like if someone said, oh, I want to do play therapy with the current climate, with the things the way they are now, you kind of have to forward your own path. Would you suggest they do that? Dariyn Olas: Yeah. If they want to exclusively do play therapy, would I recommend ADA is the question or. Dr Scott: Would you recommend, you know, well, the two master's degrees that you got like. Dariyn Olas: no. I think, I think, you know, and I'm not Dr Scott: Hahaha! Dariyn Olas: it. Like I'm happy with it, but I don't think it's necessary. think that there is a lot, especially with business, there are so many wonderful podcasts out there with the kind of very similar concepts that I think are really accessible. Dr Scott: Mm. Dariyn Olas: like, if you want to start your own business, don't feel like you have to get an MBA is what I'm trying to say. Like there, I think there is a lot of great like mentorship or also like networking is really powerful. And I think just really putting yourself out there is huge because you don't know what it could lead to. So I think that's probably the biggest one. If you're really trying to develop something is consistently put yourself out there. cause you know, it doesn't matter how many nos you get. Once you get a yes, that could really turn into something really cool. So that's advice that keeps it on the free avenue. If you're interested in going beyond that, great, good for you. But there's, there's lots of different ways to go about it. Di-Anne Elise: Great answer. Jake: As someone who got an MBA because they were like, maybe I should. Maybe I shouldn't. I completely and utterly agree. It's like it's it's one of those things where I look at and go did I learn a lot? I learned some things. I learned how to talk in meetings. I think better. I think I learned how to speak the language of business. So that way Dariyn Olas: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jake: I think that helped but in terms of learning a new skill set it was it was stuff that I already had learned just from being in working in corporate America. You know, you kind of learn by osmosis in a lot of ways you learn by modeling and things like that but Dariyn Olas: Right. Like it's not to say it doesn't have value, you can certainly learn through that avenue. There's just many different avenues that you can still learn the same skills for sure. Like Diary of a CEO, I listened to those podcasts like, wow, this sounds so Di-Anne Elise: Okay. Dariyn Olas: much like a lot of my MBA coursework. Like there's a lot, there's so much good, like free accessible information out there and a lot of really cool, intelligent people talking about things online. So I think that in networking is, it's a great place to start. Di-Anne Elise: That's Dr Scott: Terrific. Jake: So I have one last question for you. There is a clinician listening to this podcast who is completely in and says, I wanna be part of this, I wanna join this, I wanna get the app, I wanna give feedback, I see so much utility for my practice. How do they get involved or how do they, can they even get access to this, to work with you? Dariyn Olas: Yes, so soon. We are just waiting on our Apple application to get approved and then we'll be ready to rock. So you can follow Play Path LLC. It's a LinkedIn page. So following that is where you will get like the direct links and then I will post them there to both Android and Apple and you'll be able to immediately download and then the feedback forms actually within the app. So you just have to tap on that and you'll immediately be able to get feedback after you use it. So that is where it will be. And then we will have a marketing site that I will put on Play Pass as well and it will be on there too. But we're just we're just gonna wait till like Android's ready to go. We're just waiting on Apple so we're just waiting for all the links to be finalized and then we're gonna post them all at once. Hoping so soon. Di-Anne Elise: sounds. Jake: Yeah. Dr Scott: Good luck. Dariyn Olas: So thank you so much. Di-Anne Elise: Yes, wish you the best. Jake: Well, Darian, thank you so much for joining us. This has been a pleasure. And honestly, I was so excited to hear this, because this is an area of behavior analysis that I know I am not good at. And so I was really excited to have someone who who not only is an early intervention specialist, but also knows a lot about playing and can really kind of help this, because this is such a, at least in my field or where I've kind of worked at, it's been really contentious to have, to kind of look at it from this perspective. So to have this. absolute, you know, really great discussion about how we are saying the same things. This is behavior analytics. We can't make it work. It's such a really, really important topic to be discussing. So thank you so much for joining us. As always, if anyone has any questions or concerns, please reach out to us. check us out at SivaImpact.org. Thank you so much and we will see you next time.