Mark: Ladies and gentlemen, moms and dads, children of appropriate ages. Welcome to the Papa Family Court Voice podcast. Our special guest this week is David Pissara. family law attorney, father's rights advocate for men's family law, author, podcaster, and social media TikTok influencer. Have I missed anything out there? David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: I'm sure there's one, that sounds amazing. Who is that guy? Mark: is that guy? ⁓ let's find out today. David, to the podcast. The floor is yours. What do you want to talk about? David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: Thank you. I think the most important thing we can talk about today is the role fathers are playing in their children's lives and how they're being sidelined by the courts and by bad moms. And I say that with 27 years in family court. I have advocated for dads literally since my first year in practice. I had a buddy in law school who got a girl in trouble and the most thing we can talk about today is the role fathers are playing in their children's lives and how they're being sidelined by the courts Mark: Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: That became a battle and that was my first sort of welcome to family court. And that was one of those cases where there was very early on some parental alienation going on. She was married to another man and he was for whatever reason incapable of having kids. And she basically used him, my client, my guy, essentially as an unknown sperm donor. And she basically said, thanks, you can go now. Mark: Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: And took it, took the child away from him. And that was my very early entree into the way the family court system treats men, where the family code treats men. And that was back 1999. So. Mark: Mm-hmm. 1999. Okay, so you've been doing this now for 26, 27 years. So with that... David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: 26, 27 years, yeah. And I've seen some real changes in the way that our society, American society has treated men. get insights into how like the UK is treating men. I get insights into how Australia and Canada and South Africa and Brazil and India and Namibia, the way that men are being treated because they reach out to me. And this is a global problem. The reality is that we're seeing Mark: Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: men being sidelined from their children's lives on a regular basis. And it's, it's not just like that men are being sidelined. Like that's bad. It's bad for them. It's bad for their mental health. It's bad for the way that they perceive themselves. It's bad for the way that they're being treated because they're essentially becoming, you know, ATMs for, for lack of a better phrase. Cause really all the court cares about is have you paid child support? Mark: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: And a lot of these bad moms are, you're a deadbeat. You can't see your kid unless you pay your child support. And then you don't pay enough child support and pay me more and do this. And it's just, it's horrible because it's bad because these men are then treated so poorly that oftentimes they become bitter, lonely, isolated. Some of them become, you know, very depressed. Mark: Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: And that leads to, in some cases, suicidal ideation, and far too many cases, they actually go through with it. And that's a shame. And that's an outgrowth of the way that the family courts are treating men. And all bad. None of that is good for us as a society. But the worst part of that is the effect that it has on the children. Because without fathers in their lives, we know. Mark: Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: It's basically a pipeline from cradle to jail, to prison, to drugs, to criminal behavior, to maybe other bad behaviors. And eventually they become people that end up doing the same things. Mark: So how do you know that? Let me ask you that question. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: after study shows children that grow up without a father have a much higher rate ⁓ of discipline problems in school. Boys develop later. Girls develop into bad behavior, earlier sexual activity onset. They end up going to prostitution. They go into drugs. Boys go into criminal behavior and drugs. after study shows the impact of a father on a child's life and children that grow up without a father have a much higher rate ⁓ discipline problems in school. Boys develop later. Girls develop earlier into bad behavior, earlier sexual activity onset. They end up going to prostitution. They go into drugs. Boys go into criminal behavior and drugs. which then leads them into getting arrested, which then puts them in jail. Once they're down that track, now we're looking at gangs, now we're looking at prison, and it's a lifetime destroyed, taken off track because they don't have a role of their father in their life. And without a father who's setting boundaries and a father who treats children differently than moms do, those children don't know how to operate in the world. Mark: is hey David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: as effectively as those children that have fathers in their life. Because fathers bring discipline, fathers bring boundaries, fathers also bring adventure, self-confidence, self-esteem. That's what dads bring. And without that, the children's are essentially being stunted in their growth. And that's where the family courts fall short. Because the family courts don't make moms comply with their own court orders. They don't empower dads to give them the 50 % custody that they should. years ago when most kids were being raised in two parent households, this wasn't much of an issue. The legislation that was in place was really designed to deal with those really extreme cases of your hardcore alcoholics and your occasional drug addict and your occasional mentally ill person. So we were dealing with the fringes. We were dealing with the extremes. But society has radically changed in 50 years. Mark: Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: In America, most people are not getting married. Marriage is down to about a 30 % rate, but we're still having kids and that's a problem. Mark: So I wanted to touch on a couple of things that you said there. And you could probably tell, was probably being a little facetious in the question, right? So ⁓ asked you, what studies, right? In UK, we, on average, to the suicidal thing on average, I believe it's 24 male suicides per week in the UK. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: Mm-hmm. Mark: ⁓ and no one seems to be taking notice of that. It just seems to be ignored and brushed under the carpet. The other thing that really bothers me is, and this is why I asked you the question, because I wanted to see what your response was and you answered straight away without hesitation. What studies and what proof have you got? Why are you saying these sorts of things? And you said study after study after study, right? We asked the UK government the same question. And when I say the UK government, if we ask Lisa Harker. who is the CEO, the head of Nuffield Observatory, who is the research facility for the Family Corps and the government, the head of that, she says, we have no data. We don't know. So it just absolutely baffles me. There's a whole recording on the government website and I've clipped a bit of it and I've put it on my page. It really, really bothers me that this is one of the people that's leading and on the Justice Committee for Reform for Family Corps. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: Mm-hmm. Mark: really really upsets me. ⁓ David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: Well, I wouldn't, I wouldn't want to be politically incorrect, but I'm going to presume that an individual named Lisa is probably of the female persuasion. Maybe there's another agenda there. Mark: Mm hmm. Correct. Mm hmm. Yes. ⁓ wonder why, but funny enough, the three people on the panel were three females. so yeah, funny, funny that isn't it funny that, so what I wanted to start off the conversation with, ⁓ like I say, we normally have three themes that we talk about within the podcast. have three films. One is, ⁓ I'd like to find out more about, your work. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: Yeah, funny. Mark: your social media. obviously found you on I think TikTok and Instagram is where I discovered you. But I it was Instagram, but I've noticed that your TikTok is huge, right? And that's where it's, ⁓ it's, it it's, it's, I think it's big. So I will definitely consider you an influencer. ⁓ So like to talk about that. ⁓ I ⁓ like ⁓ find more about your book. ⁓ David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: It's growing. It's growing. Thank you. Thank you. Mark: ⁓ second theme is around family court. like to talk about your experience with that either from a personal perspective, or if you've got any stories that you can share about some of the work that you do within the family court, I think that'd be amazing. ⁓ the third topic, ⁓ as always is about mental health and understand that you've got some views and advice that you can share with that as well. ⁓ as, as always, we end with a three by three, which is three questions with three answers. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: Sure. Mark: So I'm going to start before we get into the conversation to get the conversation going. I'm going to ask you three very difficult questions. free answer how you, how you feel. so are you ready for this? Okay. Take a pause. You've been need to pause because they're very tough ones. Okay. Question number one. So our viewers will probably find this very funny if they follow you on social media. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: I'm ready. Mark: Number why do you men and not women? David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: So whole issue, how I got into family law and started dealing with the family courts was it's all my law partner's fault. 27 years ago when we started the firm, I to do business law. And I asked him, I'm like, what do you want to do? He said, well, I want to do family law. ⁓ my reaction was like, ew, gross. My job in our firm is to be the rainmaker. So I got to go to the Rotary Club and the social events and the Chamber of Commerce. And I would do my little dog and pony show and talk about like what we do and I wanted to do, the business side of it. Cause I figured these are business people. It should be an easy thing for me to go there, develop some business, get some clients. Nobody wanted to talk to me. It was absolute silence. Mark: Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: But then I would say, and my partner does family law, and I would get bum rushed. It would be this just onslaught of people like, I need to lower my child support. I need to lower my alimony. Get me out of this divorce. I need to get rid of this husband, like all of this stuff. And so I was finding all of this business for my partner, which was great until his calendar got so full that his calendar spilled into my calendar. And all of a sudden I'm now having to cover a hearing on child support or a hearing on a domestic violence issue or a hearing on a divorce case. And before I knew it, I had a completely full calendar of family law stuff and nobody was doing any kind of business law with me. So we did that for a couple of years and we were very, very busy. We had an extremely busy practice and I was just up to here with stress and anxiety and clients were on my nerves and I was just like, I don't Mark: Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: Like this, I don't want to do this anymore. But we had, he had a kid or two. He had a mortgage. I had a mortgage. We had things to deal with. Like life continues. You can't just all of a sudden be like, no, I'm not going do that anymore. Stop. Says that I'd have to reconfigure this. Who are the clients that I like and clients that I can't stand? Maybe there's something there. And I made a list and it was literally boys on the left and girls on the right. It was like the clients that were easy to work with. were the men and the clients that wanted me to be their best friend, their stylist, their therapist, their father confessor. They wanted me to go out and be their white knight. I was supposed to destroy him, take the kids, get all the money, put him in jail. I want him destroyed and I don't have any money. You gotta go to him to get it. And I looked at this and I'm like, if I have to go to him and he's an easier client anyways, why don't I just start with him? And so I decided to start mensfamilylaw.com. And my partner's immediate reaction was, we can't do that. Like we can't, that's going to just take away all of our business. And I'm like, no, no, no, it's going to be fine. We're going to have a cleaner message. I'm going to get known as the men's family lawyer. It'll be good. And it worked out really well for us. And so for me, it was very much an emotional response from three years of practice of who are easier clients, because a man walks in. Mark: and emotional response from three years ago. Of course, your client is a man walks in, he sits down and says, this was. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: He sits down and he says, this relationship is over. Like I haven't had sex in seven years. want out. What's it gonna cost me? How long is it gonna take? And I say, it's gonna be six months and it's a $5,000 retainer and they write me a check and they're good. And I don't have to talk to them until I need to. And then it's a 20 minute conversation. I get the three things I need from them and we're good to go. Mark: Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: But if I'm dealing with her, it's every possible strategy, it's every possible scenario. It's can we do this? Can we do that? What about this? What about that? Do you remember back when he did this? And I want that and I don't feel loved and I don't feel valued and I don't feel emotional. Dude, I don't have the time or the energy. Like go see a therapist because it's five or $700 an hour. You should not be talking to me about that stuff. Mark: Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: You should go talk to a therapist at $200 an hour and someone who can actually help you. And so that's how I ended up with men's family law. And over the next 10, 15 years, men's family law has kind of evolved as I've seen the way that the family courts are empowering moms to alienate dads and dads need help. And so I started to focus really in on the dad market. We've gone from. Mark: Mm-hmm. ⁓ Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: everybody to men to dads. what I have found is that the more I'm focused on dads and child custody, the more clear my message is and the more man I'm actually able to help because it gets directly to them. And so that's why I represent men today's world. Mark: It's amazing that you do that because I think in today's world, maybe even more so particularly in the US, you can almost be shamed to a certain extent from, you you're just, you're just all about men. so it's, David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: No! Oh, dude, let's just add on the fact that I'm a gay man myself. So now I get like the women who are like, oh, you just hate women. I'm like, really? Okay. Well, here are the five best friends in my life who are female. Why don't you go talk to them about how much I hate women? I don't hate women. I see through the BS. I see through the manipulation, the lies, the setups, the games they play, and I don't play those games. Mark: ⁓ huh. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: And when I explained to my clients that like, dude, you need to like, let go of this idea that she's some Madonna image. Like she's this perfect person. Like you don't understand that you were set up from day one and I lay out from them. Here's where the setup started. Here's where the mistake you made was. Cause you kept thinking that, if you're just a good guy who provides, she'll continue to love you. Well, that's not true. She's going to continue to love you so long as you provide. And the minute you falter in any way, she's out. And she's already got her exit strategy. She's got her like little rat hole of money. She's figured out how to make sure her credit cards are paid down. She knows exactly what's gonna happen because she's met with two to four lawyers, consulted with them. What am I entitled to? How do I set them up? How am I gonna get the kids? How do I get the most amount of money? How do I get the most amount of time? It's all in place and it's just sitting there. It's a giant contingency plan that almost every woman has. If they're married and have kids, and if they just have kids, they have the same scenario. They're just in a little better position. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think you're absolutely spot on there. I can really relate to what you're saying ⁓ my own experiences. And with my own experience, I think one of the mistakes that I made going in straight away was thinking that the family was going to be ⁓ a fair field. So I obviously went in wanting to ⁓ wanting to fair and say, okay, you know, let's go in and ⁓ David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: Not even close. Mark: You know, you go your way. go my way. Let's just leave it like that. And that's what I thought would be the best thing and the right thing to do. it probably the biggest mistake that I've made. So my second question to you is ⁓ what would you give to somebody that's thinking along that mindset thinking, ⁓ we'll go in and play fair because she's the mother of my children. ⁓ And, know, she's, she's a still my ex wife and I don't want anything. malicious or bad to happen to her or anything like that what would you say to that? David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: That is precisely why men get destroyed in family court. She has spent two to four years strategizing and you're coming in after the fact, probably been hit with the domestic violence restraining order. I think you guys call them orders of protection. Mark: we call it an NMO non molestation order. Same thing. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: Okay. So yeah, same thing. And, and, and the reality is that that's a complete setup. And so now you are, we, we use the phrase behind the eight ball. I'm not sure if that translates. but you're in a bad position. You're already on your back foot going into family court and you think that you can play nice with this person who has spent years setting them, setting you up. Well, that, that's just not going to, that's not going to work. Mark: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: You can't do that. You have to change your mindset around the person that you are now in court with. And they're not just the mother of your child. And I get that there's that whole socio-psychological setup of my job is to provide and protect. Great. Yeah, absolutely. Until the game changed. Mark: Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: You know, you can't play by the rules of cricket. It doesn't work. Like ⁓ are two totally different things. And when that relationship shifts, you have to really change the way in which you're playing the game. You have to start documenting everything you do. You have to start looking at the other person as an opponent and strategize. What is it the court is going to need? Because the court is the referee. Mark: Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: The court is the umpire. The court is the person that's gonna be making the decisions. And so you have to play to their wants, needs, and desires. And if you're just walking in the court, and this is what they do here, guys, and I've seen this, I don't know, 100,000 times, guys walk in and they're like, I'm a great dad, I want my 50 % custody. Mark: Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: Well, if you just tell a judge that you have said absolutely nothing, because everybody walks into court and says, I'm a great dad. love my kids. You wouldn't be in court if you didn't. So you're, you're just starting from the baseline. Now give the judge something that's going to be a value. Give the judge proof that you actually know something about your kids because mom's coming into court and mom's going to be saying, Mark: Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: He's negligent. He's never around. He doesn't know the kids. He doesn't know their teachers. He doesn't know their shoe size. He doesn't know their food allergies. He doesn't know their best friends. He doesn't know what they like. He doesn't know how to discipline them. He doesn't know how to nurture them. He doesn't know how to take care of them. doesn't, he doesn't, doesn't, he doesn't. Well, if you're walking in going, I'm a great dad, that doesn't say anything. So a judge is left with, I've got all of these allegations from mom and I got nothing from dad. So who am I going to believe? Mark: Bye. I think that's part of the problem though, isn't it? fathers don't necessarily go in thinking of a bunch of stuff to make up or ways to manipulate things. They just want to go in and take an honest approach, but it doesn't necessarily work like that at all. the other question that I had for you, or something that somebody has said to me before, one of the main reasons that David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: Mom! Not long. Not long. Mark: women will do this ⁓ So question to you ⁓ is, your perspective on this ⁓ and, why you this might be the case? David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: Well, I think the reality is that, you know, in the, in the world of, of romantic marketplace, a woman who is 35 to 45 with one to three kids, who's got a divorce behind her or a string of failed relationships has no real value on the open market. Like, like she's not going to pull a great guy. And she knows that because she knows that she's competing with the 20, 25, 30, 35 year old. who's hot, who doesn't have kids, who's got some freedom and some fun left and doesn't have responsibilities and can, you know, pack a swimsuit and get away for the weekend and go down to Brighton and just go play at the beach. And that's what her new or her ex-husband can play with. Because the man who's going through a divorce, a man at 35 to 55 basically has the world at his feet in terms of dating. Mark: Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: completely appropriate for him to date from 20 to 70. Like the entire range of females is available for him to date. And she knows this and she's going to see it. And she knows that she's in competition with that 20 year old and that 25 year old. And so there's this natural animosity between women because they're all fighting for diminishing resources. Cause there's more women than men. And so the men that are now single. Mark: Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: There's fewer and fewer of them who are available, who want to do anything with women because so many men go through this. They have that first relationship, get destroyed in family court, alienated from their children, thanks to parental alienation strategies that women use. And they don't want anything to do with women. They're done dating. So like that pool gets smaller and smaller every year. And these women are now looking around going like there's no good men around. ⁓ Yeah, you had one and you probably blew it. So they're bitter because they know that they have to compete and that's why they are like Well, they can't be angry at themselves because it's not their fault. Accountability is kryptonite to most women. Mark: Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: Tell me I'm wrong. I'm not. I'm not. Mark: No, no, I'm laughing because I was on an interview with somebody that's named her book after that exact line. ⁓ really? Yeah. Yeah. Have you heard of Hayley Rochelle? David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: ⁓ really? ⁓ I did like a look at that. I'll have find that. ⁓ ⁓ okay. I'll take a look at that. Mark: That's the name of a new book, so you might find it interesting. It's about accountability, you might enjoy that. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: So that's why women get bitter because now they've ruined relationship. They're probably not going to have great success getting a second relationship. And all of their girlfriends have told them, girl, you can do better. You deserve more. He's not good enough for you. Well, I'm sorry, but if you're dating a tradesman, you're probably going to end up with another tradesman. Like most women are not going to go from a tradesman Mark: talking ⁓ Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: to the CEO of a Fortune 500 company. Like you're just not going to leap that much in the social ladder. So you're just changing from one set of problems for another set of problems that are going to basically the same set of problems. Because men are men. We're pretty simple creatures for the most part. It's like, give us a purpose, we'll do the purpose. What do we really want? We want peace. We want to enjoy our holidays. We want to enjoy our weekends and enjoy being a dad. Mark: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah, we have a David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: And if you just do that, like you can get whatever you want out of a man. Mark: We have a pretty basic operating system, I think, compared to females. It's easy to figure out, I think. going back to what we talking about before, I mentioned Hayley's You've got own book, haven't you? Can you tell us a little bit about that? David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: Yes. I do, Dad's Child Custody Action Plan, which is designed to give dads the tools they need to go into court, to get the time that they want and that their kids deserve. So in this book, I've got that declaration where I say, this is what you lay out to the judge precisely so that you can get the time that you want. Because if you're walking into court and you say, I'm just a great dad. Mark: Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: You're not saying anything, but if you give this to the judge, now the judge has all of this information that they can look at. that's important because if a judge sees all of this information before you come out and actually meet the judge. Mark: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. is that relatable to ⁓ courts worldwide? Do think it would be to different courts or is it specific to the US? David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: No, it's death because this is a strategy. And this book, I've sold this book in Canada, Australia, the UK, South Africa, Namibia, Brazil, ⁓ the response I get from this book from dads is, this makes it so understandable, it's so clear, it's so easy to know now what I'm supposed to tell the judge. Thank you for writing it. Mark: Mm-hmm. Fantastic. I wish I had that or something like that when I first started out, but I'll still grab myself a copy of that's okay. Normally with friends or people that I know, I like to buy the digital download so I can listen to it while I'm working. But then I also like to buy the paperback and I like to get a signature on it if that's okay. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: Absolutely. Hmm? I'm happy to send you one. And it is available on Apple as a podcast. We're on the podcast. It's an audio book that's free download. So I put the information out there because for me, it's more important that dads get access to this material than that I make the 23 cents that, know, Jeff Bezos would pay me through Audible at some point in the future. Mark: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, no worries. Like I said, I'd love to add it to my collection. moving on to the second theme, tell us a little bit about your story or stories that you've got about some of the things that you've seen in Family Court. What can you tell us about? David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: So the problem that I'm seeing in family court is the way that men are being treated and the way that they don't have the resources they need, which is why I wrote this book, which is why I created dadslawschool.com because I wanted to give dads the tools so that they could start representing themselves. I have an audio course. I've got a video course. have weekly meetups on Thursdays. Dads get together and we do meetings on Zoom just like this. where they go over their strategy, what's happening in their case. They ask me questions about how do we do discovery? How do I then use discovery in court? Because oftentimes what happens is this, someone will walk into court and they'll say, I've got a stack of 500 text messages that show she's gatekeeping. And the judge won't look at it. The judge doesn't look at it. And then they come out of court because they lost and they're like, that stupid judge wouldn't even look at my evidence. Well, yeah. Mark: Yeah, no one cares. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: Judge isn't going to look at your evidence because you didn't present it properly. You can't give a judge 500 text messages. You need to have ⁓ three text messages that demonstrate really clearly why gatekeeping. And you need to have that evidence admitted. There's a whole process to getting your evidence in front of a judge. You have to take that text message, lay a foundation, offer it into evidence. get it admitted so that the court can then rely upon it. Now the judge can look at it and be like, ⁓ I see mom's gatekeeping. You're right, dad, mom stopped doing that. But if you don't do that, you're just going to get frustrated. And that's why I created the video courses that explain how to gather evidence and then how to use it with an evidence course. And then when guys want help, we've got a cheat sheet that they get. There's a cheat sheet in the book. Once you're a member of the VIP program, you can ask me questions by email. You can generally reach out to me on our private WhatsApp group, because we've got dads who in between the meetups, talk to each other through the WhatsApp group because they're sharing stories, they're sharing wins, they're sharing losses. They're sharing what's going on in their life. They're getting the support they need so that they can continue to fight for their kids because there's some pretty powerful against them in family court. Mark: mentioned earlier, I want to track back to something that you mentioned earlier, because it's something that I've been researching a little bit recently in the last week or so. You mentioned accountability and you mentioned orders being upheld ⁓ in the or in your ⁓ What's what is that like with regards to orders being broken orders being upheld? your experience on that? David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: Right. Courts love to uphold orders for dads to pay child support. They will enforce those orders with the extreme strength in the boot of the government on a man's neck. Because it's very easy to do. It's a defined dollar amount. We know where he works. We know his bank account. We can take his driver's license. We can take his... Mark: Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: passport, we can take his professional licenses, his trade licenses. We can use all kinds of tools to force dad to pay. We hate forcing mom to comply with court orders because it involves custody, exchanges, time with the kid with dad. And courts do not enforce those orders in any way the same way that they enforce child support orders. And I think it's an absolute travesty. because I see on a regular basis good men who are paying their child support, who are being denied access to their kids because mom is just being mean and bitter and getting back at dad and she's using the kids to do it. And the problem is, yes, that hurts dad, but as I said earlier, it hurts the kids more. Mark: Yeah, you've just almost given an almost identical answer from interview that I did last week from a gentleman called Robert Garza. He's he almost said exactly the thing as what you So it's amazing that some parity there in the opinions, right? And I was talking to him. ⁓ David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: It's also really sad that like, so now you've got two people, so we must be telling the truth. That's really sad. Mark: Yeah, yeah and I literally have just done an analysis of a report that the the Papa guys put together where they looked at accountability, they looked at orders being upheld. The numbers were 1.7 % of broken orders, breached orders were being upheld in the UK from the study that they did. 1.7. It's an absolutely terrible number. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: Yeah, I- 100 % believe that. Mark: Yeah, so I don't know what it is like in the US or from what you've seen, but really hope that things change in the UK. I really, really do. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: Well, yeah. And I hope they change here. And one of the things we're doing here is there's a real movement to go to a presumption of 50 50 custody. have it in Florida. We have it in Missouri. We're working on a couple other states. I'm kind of about to launch that here in California because I think if I can get California to do it, that'll help a bunch of other states kind of fall by the wayside. And I think that we should probably have something similar in the UK. You guys should probably start that movement to really start pushing because there's no reason in today's world where women have to have full-time jobs, where dads have to have full-time jobs. So they're on equal footing. Kids go to daycare, kids go to school. There's no reason. If the parents are living close enough to each other, they should have 50-50 custody. There should be an equality. Mark: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: in parenting the same way that women want equality in the workforce. Dads want equality when it comes to parenting. And this BS that, moms are just the better parent because they're more nurturing. No, sorry. I disagree with you. have no proof of that. You have absolutely no proof of that. There are fabulous fathers out there who are extremely nurturing and there are mothers out there who murder their babies. So you cannot tell me that by nature women are just better. They're different. Mark: Yeah. Mm-hmm. But the, the, prob, the, the problem in the UK is that we all know that things happen on both sides all the time, right? It's not about men versus women. It's about people. But in the mainstream media, you will only hear about when have been dads that have been abusive towards children or parents or mothers ⁓ ⁓ know, killed their children but ⁓ that's the, that's, that, that, that's. ⁓ David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: They're different. Right. Right. Yeah, I know. It's always questionable. Mark: That's the only time that it will be reported in mainstream media. ⁓ always like from ⁓ a feminist or female perspective, ⁓ they never will talk about the average dad or the normal dads or the caring dads, ⁓ they will never mention the harmful mothers unless they're there to take their children away and, you know, I say half the that's not even the right number. large majority of the time, there's nothing wrong with these single mothers that are having their children taken away from them. You know, there's like a whole strategy over here in my opinion, exploiting, separating families and exploiting single mothers for profit. And you know, that's ⁓ something there's a huge problem in the UK ⁓ that dealing with. And it's something that I'm definitely working on trying to create reform for. going to what you're saying about parental alienation ⁓ and of the things that you've seen with your clients, your experiences, what's the worst cases ⁓ of parental alienation that you've come or seen? Can you talk about that at all? David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: Absolutely. We had a case where mom ⁓ convinced 12 year old that her father was sexually abusive her and destroyed that for several years. it, ⁓ I mean, was when we actually finally dug in and could get the kid to actually see the reality. and she finally came to, came to some sense of sanity. Because the allegations were just unbelievable. saying that if dad fully clothed and 12 year old fully clothed ⁓ next to each other on the sofa, that's sexual abuse. Well, I'm sorry, ⁓ is not sexual abuse. That ⁓ mom bald face assertions. clearly trying to break the relationship between dad and daughter. And that's the definition of parental alienation. When you're trying to sever the relationship between parent and child, and there's no factual basis for it when the child turns against the parent. And then as in this case, there was no factual basis for it other than mom planting false ideas in the child who then repeats them to either a mandated reporter or a therapist. And that's the genesis of parental alienation. so that case was horrible because dad spent three years, approximately a quarter million dollars to fight to get his daughter back. And we had to go through a child custody evaluation, which don't know how, I'm assuming you guys have something similar. And that's where the... A psychologist interviews mom, interviews dad, puts everybody through some psychological testing. They interview some collateral individuals, grandparents, teachers, family, friends, new spouses to try and suss out what's really going on here. And that's slow, time consuming. And the whole time, the problem is, is that the real victim in this, the child, is living with the abuser who can continue to abuse the child. Mark: Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: by continuing to plant false ideas in their head. Mark: Yeah. Yeah, that's really hits home. sure for a of people watching right now. ⁓ And ⁓ that's one the that I personally find all of this baffling, honestly baffling. I can't understand, do understand, to be honest, why the governments are doing this to parents is for profit. It's purely for profit, because conflict creates profit. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: There's an element of profit, no doubt, the family courts. With the ⁓ profit is allegedly in child support system. Allegedly it's in breaking up families. And I don't describe a great deal to that. ⁓ I don't that that's the real motivation. I think the real motivation is the feminist lobby has really attacked Mark: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: families. They have really at the expense of families tried to empower women and given them a false sense of the way the world works, what they're entitled to. ⁓ a consequence, what I think we've had happen is we've had the family unit pretty much decimated. We've got women who are profoundly unhappy and unsatisfied raising kids and doing a piss poor job of it as a consequence because they're not actually looking at what are they really entitled to. They think they're entitled to everything. as a man in the world, ⁓ know, and I am told from the very, very beginning of my life, ⁓ are not entitled to ⁓ You get to work and earn what you want and you have to show up and your word has to mean something. And that is what men have to do. And these women think that they can just be cute and that they can always get a better man. And it's his job to like give her a quality in the workplace and open up doors and be the gentleman and do all the chivalry stuff, but treat her like a girl as an equal. And it's like, okay, girl, you're talking out of three sides of your mouth. Make up your mind. What is it you really want? Because what we do know is this. The traditional wives, those who are really living a traditional life of stay at home mom, loving their man, being a good provider in the family, making that home and have that expectation. Are happy and they produce happy families. And we have those women who are very career driven. They don't really want kids. Mark: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: They're not really looking for a relationship. They want to go be success and make money. They're happy. What does that tell you? You can have path A or you can have path B, but you can't get path both because path both doesn't exist. Mark: So what are you saying about people that want path both? David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: You're, you, you need to like come to reality. You're delusional if you think you can have both. You just don't get to have that as an option. I don't get to have everything I want on my table and still get to stay thin. Like it's just a logical impossibility. You can't have a marvelous career that's going to make you a million dollars a year and have a great, happy household and have the kids be happy and healthy and well taken care of. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yeah. we can delve into third topic when I mentioned it this to you off camera you seemed like you had some strong opinions or views ⁓ about where you wanted the conversation to, to go. So I'm really, really interested find out more about what you've got to say about the mental health topics and the mental health side of, ⁓ the family courts parental alienation. so what can you talk about or what can you tell us about from that perspective? David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: let's start with the umbrella element of how are men dealing ⁓ mental health and family courts? Poorly. They need more help. They need to address fact that you're going through an extremely traumatic experience in family court. You need to face the fact that you're walking into an arena that you have probably zero experience with, no preparation. No coaching and maybe your of life allows you to hire a lawyer to then try and argue this stuff for you, but you still don't really understand what's going on. And it's sort of like going on to a court and, and a court and not knowing the rules of the game and thinking that you're going to come out. Okay. You just don't. And so what it triggers for men is that anxiety. That loneliness, that isolation, because they don't talk to each other about it. You know, it's very rare that men will sit down and over a pint talk to each other and be like, yeah, I really feel like I'm getting screwed in family court. No, that's just not going to talk about, know, I feel lonely and sad that my, don't see my kids as often as I want to, you know, I'm feeling isolated and anxious. Like those are just not, we don't use that vocabulary. And so as a consequence, men bottle up those emotions and they just Mark: Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: bury it and it comes out either as anger, which then gets used by your ex to prove that you're a violent, abusive, horrible human being who should not be allowed near their children with a non-molestation order or DVPA as we call them. And as a consequence, what ends up happening is you're now putting yourself in an even worse position due to bad mental health. Mark: Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: So we need men to start having support groups. need to start talking about this stuff. They need to go seek mental health. They need to go seek a therapist and discuss it. And they need help understanding the way the family courts operate. We're back to why did I write my book? Why did I create dadslawschool.com? Why do I have a VIP program to give dads the tools they need to navigate these rough waters? get together every Thursday for dads to talk. Mark: you David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: Probably the first 15 minutes is just kinda getting caught up what's going on with your kid and what's going on. How's the potty training coming? How's work going? What's going on in your life? Just to get them to have some sense of community and emotional support because they don't get it anywhere else. Mark: Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: I had a video go kind of viral. got a couple hundred thousand views a few years back and it's me just taking, ⁓ two DVDs. And I said, do you know what these DVDs are? This one ⁓ from my client and he wanted me to give it to his kids because he was going to unalive himself. And this one is for me, for the documentary we're doing about the silver bullet and domestic violence abuse. in family court. That client was so depressed because his kids had been taken from him multiple times. They had gone back and forth and courts were just crazy. He was so depressed, so ready to just pull the plug on his own life. He wanted to make sure that his kids heard their, his side of the story. Mark: Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: That's how bad it gets. Guys get there and they need help to make sure that that doesn't happen. Because you're right. I you talk about 24 men a day kill themselves due to family court. Yeah, I totally believe that. We've got probably 10 times that in the States. And it gets buried because it's, accidentally OD'd. ⁓ it's drug addiction. ⁓ it's alcohol abuse. ⁓ it wasn't accident. ⁓ it wasn't. No. Mark: Yep. Mm hmm. they actually proactively try and cover it up in different ways in ⁓ the reports. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: necessarily in the death reports from the coroner, but a man who gets depressed will drink himself to death and no one's going to look at it and say, well, why was he depressed? They're not going to look at it and go, wait a second. He was 45 years old. His kids were stolen from him. His business was stolen from him. All of the money that he spent 20 years building went to her. Mark: Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: man who gets depressed will drink himself to death and no one's going to look at it and say, well, why was he depressed? They're not going to look at it and go, wait a second. He was 45 years old. His kids were stolen from him. His business was stolen from him. All of the money that he spent 20 years building went to her. Mark: Yep. Yep. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: He owes her $5,000 a ⁓ month child support. He's $100,000 in debt to his divorced lawyer. His reputation has been ruined He owes her $5,000 a ⁓ month child support. He's $100,000 in debt to his divorced lawyer. His reputation has been ruined because she told everybody that he was a child molester to get the domestic violence restraining order to keep him away from the kids so that she could get the maximum amount of child support. Did he drink himself to death because he was just unhappy with the way the world is? Or did he drink himself to death because his life was destroyed by her? Did he drink himself to death because he was just unhappy with the way the world is? Or did he drink himself to death because his life was destroyed by her? Well, no one's going to say he drank himself to death because of her because well, we can't do that. Well, she's just a good mom protecting her children. She's just doing the best she can. She's a single mom. No, no. She's a bad mom and she's an evil mom and she destroyed a man. Mark: Yeah. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: for her own purposes and then because she's bitter and angry. Mark: Yeah, absolutely. You're spot on there. And I don't think it's just the mums. I think it's also the family court arena that contribute to that. They encourage it. They encourage this bad behavior. They facilitate it 100 % completely. We, they have to, yeah. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: 100 % Well, they have to, they have to, and they have to, and here's why they have to, at least on our side of the, the, the ocean, because the domestic violence shelters, which have been completely taken over by the feminist mania, like, like it's insane, have written laws that are so ⁓ manipulated by women who want to play a victim when they're not a victim. that then the family courts have to, to cover themselves and to protect themselves. They have to do these things. And a lot of that we can owe thanks to OJ Simpson murdering Nicole Brown Simpson, because that was when the real change happened. When he murdered her, that's when the domestic violence lobby really got power. That's when they really were like, ⁓ now we've got something. Now we can make change. Mark: Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: And that's because, it's high profile. ⁓ what does that do? It changes the dynamic. And now when they go and they say to their legislators, we need more money, we need more grants, we need more rooms. ⁓ well, we're going to write you a check because, you know, we can't have women getting murdered, which of course we can't. That's bad. Not going to say it's not, but the laws are insane right now. They've gone so far afield. We have a... Mark: Yep. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: The newest grounds for domestic violence restraining order, a non-molestation order my jurisdiction is coercive control. If you are coercively controlling your partner, they can get a restraining order kicking you out of your house, taking custody of your kids, making you have supervised visitation with your kids, go through batters intervention classes, parenting classes, co-parenting classes, supervised visitation. Mark: Mm-hmm. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: at 50 to $100 per hour to see your kids for two to four hours on a Saturday. I don't even know what coercive control means. Mark: You don't even need any evidence of that. just need the allegation. You just need the allegation and your fathers are finished from the day you walk in there. And what they'll say is for preventative measures, we're going to grant this. you're like, but hang on a minute. You haven't even checked or asked or done any research on it whatsoever. It's an absolute shame. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: You don't. Yes. Yes. Yes. Bye. Doesn't matter. She feels abuse. Mark: It's an absolute shame. you know, going back to what you're saying about the, deaths in the UK, like I said, uh, from my research, it's like 24 men per week in the UK. And like you say, it's probably a lot more in, the U S because of the population, right? Um, the government, I believe in one of their recent reports, the APPG report, they probably played it down a little bit and said, oh, it's only 16 men per week. And so, okay, well, David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: Only only Mark: 16 men per week is still a lot of people, right? That's a lot of dads that are dying. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: 60 minute a week is what is that? 100 a year? Mark: It's, it's a lot. It's a lot, right. And, know, we actually run a campaign at Papa where we do demonstrations in front of the family courts, trying to highlight this, trying to the amount of people that are losing their lives ⁓ because of ⁓ and children are losing fathers because of this. It's called the lost years campaign. ⁓ you might notice some of it popping up on the feeds, where there's demonstrations out these outside these family courts. I think it's a very, very good cause, but you know, the reality is no one cares at this stage. We need to louder about it some way, somehow someone's got to start listening at some point. I to end ⁓ every with what I call the three by three, which is three questions with three answers. Now you choose to answer them quick fire, or you can ⁓ answer them form. So it's completely up to you. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: Yeah. Mark: first set of questions that I have ⁓ is and simple. What three things are you great for? David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: today, I am grateful for modern medicine. it's amazing what the judges, I mean, what the doctors are able to do. I just recently had a big health scare and it was like, whoo, dodged a big Dylan on that one. I'm grateful for, ⁓ you know, living in the times that I do, because it's amazing the impact that one person can have. We're lucky that we've got the social media channels that we do and we can reach people and make a difference in their lives. And I'm really grateful that I live, ⁓ in the States, truthfully, because as, as crazy as it is right now, and it is make no mistake, crazy. Mark: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: ⁓ there are parts of the world that are just very, very dangerous and I'm very blessed to be here. Mark: question ⁓ is ⁓ what three things ⁓ are needed to Family David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: I think the first thing is the most important one that would say is we need to reform the definition and the view ⁓ of domestic violence and how being handled. Because I think that we are not actually treating ⁓ the issue. I think we're letting people make whatever false allegations they want and then relying on them. So I think it needs to actually have a more psychological input. I would like to see those cases actually handled, least initially, with a mental health screening to figure out what's really going on. Then I would like to see more geographic controls placed on children. I don't think it's fair that one parent can take a child and just relocate and then claim like, well, they've been here long enough, so now the kid's with me and the court's just kind of rubber stamped that. I think that's wrong. ⁓ Mark: Mm-hmm. ⁓ you get that in the US as well do you? ⁓ yeah! David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: ⁓ yeah. ⁓ yeah. We get that a lot. And I think that we need to start seeing the equality of men in, in family court. think that's probably the, one of the biggest things. Mark: My third question is what words ⁓ would use to describe the family court? David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: Delusional, schizophrenic, and chaotic. Mark: Interesting. ⁓ I like hear people's responses on that because sometimes you'll get very similar answers and sometimes you get some new words. I've got some new words today. I've really enjoyed that. I really enjoyed that one. So can you tell people where's the best place to connect with you? Where's the best place to find you? David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: Good. The best place to find me is on TikTok. It's dad's law school or on Instagram. It's also dad's law school. And if you want to go see my longer form videos where we could dive deeper into these topics on YouTube, it's also dad's law school. And then of course we have our primary website, which is dadslawschool.com where we teach dads how to represent themselves in family court with online videos, weekly group coaching, private WhatsApp group and email support so they can get the time that they want and their kids deserve. Mark: David, thank you very much. It's been an absolute pleasure and a delight chatting to you today. I've really enjoyed your insight. I'm hoping we can chat to you again at some point in the future if you're willing. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: Thank you. Anytime. Happy to be here. Mark: Fantastic. David, thank you very much. David Pisarra - DadsLawSchool: My pleasure, thank you.