speaker-0: We are the roots, we are the right, hearts on fire, truth in eyes. From these blocks, we build the towers, people, passion. This is Places People Change, a podcast that explores what happens when neighborhoods stop being the target of change and start being the source of it. From these lives, we build it. Fico paixão. Welcome to Season One, where we explore belonging as the foundation for equitable neighborhood change. This season we will talk to researchers and thought leaders who are shaping the field of place-based development and to the practitioners on the ground making it possible. I am Sean Duncan, the founder of Congruence Consulting, and your host for Places People Change. Places People Change has a framework for neighborhood level belonging that includes three fundamental components. Social cohesion, which is our trusting relationships with people in our neighborhood, collective efficacy, which is the belief that our voices matter and we can work together to shape our future. And finally, sense of place, which is our personal and collective connection to the neighborhood itself. Over the next two episodes, we're going to look more closely at that final piece of belonging, sense of place, or as some call it, Place attachment. Place attachment is a term that sociologists use to capture the emotional bond and sense of identity that ties people to their immediate context, which includes its history, geographic boundaries, culture, and norms. A sense of place emerges from the ways neighborhoods offer cultural meaning, collective memory, and these everyday experiences of safety and care. Place attachment is about experiencing belonging to the neighborhood itself, not just our neighbors. Today's guest is literally working around the world to activate a movement of people who are working with their neighbors to catalyze a sense of place, to deepen place attachment through the work of placemaking. Placemaking is not just a generic term, it is a global movement that traces its origins back to the 70s with the Project for Public Spaces. Placemaking is a community-driven approach to designing and improving public spaces. Think parks, main streets, and plazas. So that they actually reflect how people who live there want to gather, connect, and spend their time. Instead of top-down planning, placemaking starts with the people already using the space and builds outward from their everyday knowledge of what works. All of this is done to make connection and belonging intentional and natural. Our guest today is Ethan Kent, the executive director of Placemaking X, which he founded in 2019 to network, amplify, and accelerate placemaking leadership and impact globally. Ethan has spent 25 years working on placemaking projects and campaigns, traveling to more than a thousand cities and 65 countries, and establishing over 30 regional placemaking networks around the world. Ethan has keynoted over 100 top urbanism conferences and helps organize dozens of placemaking conferences shaping this movement. Listen in to our conversation about how we can design our places for belonging, about why place attachment matters. And about how we can work together to not only make our places more livable, but more lovable. Ethan, hey man, thank you so much for being willing to join into this conversation today.

speaker-1: Yeah, cheers, Sean. Thanks for having me. Excited for this.

speaker-0: I'm assuming you are at home and not in some other corner of the globe ⁓ today. You actually you actually calling into this from your from your actual home today.

speaker-1: Yeah, I'm home in home in Brooklyn, beautiful day here and yeah, good to be home. But yeah, it's a busy time of year for travel too.

speaker-0: Yeah, awesome. Well thank you for for carving out some time for this. I'm I'm super excited to engage in this conversation around place making and place attachment. I just ⁓ value your perspective a lot and and I'm looking forward to it.

speaker-1: Well, likewise I value your your perspective and your leadership in in bringing so many amazing people together for this topic. Yeah.

speaker-0: Yeah, thank you. So as the E D Overseeing Placemaking X, ⁓ you're all the time speaking, working, engaging around this idea of how people influence their places or their environment. And so Matt, I'm curious for you personally, like when is there a place, a neighborhood that has shaped you in a particular way and and how so?

speaker-1: Yeah, well I've I've been very lucky to grew up in New York City and and then I've been lucky through my father to get to travel around the world learning from people that are shaping places and and ⁓ you know getting to be in some of the most, you know, vibrant, you know, inclusive social public spaces around the world. ⁓ certainly, you know, I I grew up, you know, in in New York and and s seeing the transformation of of the city as well, ⁓ you know, how How it's seen locally and globally, the transformation of many public spaces, and have gotten luckily to be involved since the late 90s in in many of those transformations here too. So ⁓ you know, seeing how how the story of a city can be shaped by the advocates, the you know, the people on the ground, the the the people often first opposing something and then ⁓ and harnessing that sometimes negative sort of nimbi energy into something creative and saying, you know.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: preserving what they love about a community ⁓ ch you know, by celebrating and and creating more of what you know what they love and attracting people on their terms and that kind of

speaker-0: I'm curious, like, I mean, just you know, growing up with the guy who was instrumental and kind of launching this placemasing work and your life and career being in and so involved in it. I'm I'm curious, like kind of going back, like if you're swimming on those waters as a child and this is like just your normal, right? For for you, was there a moment where you like like it clicked for you where you really began to like where where that where you remember it coming alive on like, ⁓ I love public spaces and the way that life, you know, teams to g you know, c comes together. And yeah, is there a a memory or a moment or a place that comes to mind for you when it it kinda clicked?

speaker-1: Yeah, I there's there's there's many moments and it was you know it you know really it's it's the people that are that love places and work to create them that really inspired me and made me ⁓ see the excitement of this work. But my first experience doing that was actually at a c I went to a conference in Venice with my father, I think it was ⁓ nineteen eighty five, I was nine or so, maybe eight even. and ⁓ it was the first time I was ever allowed to walk around a city by myself. You know, so it was this incredibly freeing experience and I had to wander, you know, you know, ten to fifteen minutes from the hotel to where this the conference was. And I just I remember, yeah, the sort of the vibrancy of the of the of the s of the streets and you know, but but feeling so safe and and comfortable and ⁓ with no cars obviously and but also yeah the conviviality of these conferences. It was it happened to be something called the first Making Cities Livable conference. And there's been I think like sixty of them now. There's one alternate between Europe and and the US

speaker-0: Wow. I love that. That's incredible. ⁓ so for anybody listening in that is has heard this word placemaking and maybe didn't even know that it's like an official movement and official set of practices that are going on around the world. Like, how would you give an introduction or a description of what what is meant by this idea of placemaking?

speaker-1: Yeah. Well, I mean it's sort of it's an evolving term, it's a fraught term, it's a it's a it's really a a discussion ⁓ you know, about how do we best shape our shared spaces together. and I see at the broadest definition, I really see it as the process of how people and places build each other up. that said, it really started with ⁓ sort of describing the processes and tools that we had developed at Project for Public Spaces in the nineties when I I joined ⁓ to the you know to really put into practice the work of Jane Jacobs and William White who are our mentors. ⁓ and my father founded Project for Public Spaces in nineteen seventy five, you know, with ⁓ with with given free office space in Rockefeller Center to to put the you know to to apply th these ideas of White and Jacobs ⁓ in public spaces and ⁓ but the the the nineties they sort of you know w ⁓ right around when I was lucky to join ⁓ They start developing these principles and and tools that really ⁓ were first and foremost about the community being the expert. You know, where they had been the experts for for a while, they realized that they could have a much broader impact and you know, and really build local capacity by helping to celebrate, you know, reveal support the local expertise of communities in their you know, who know their public spaces best, who have the resources and ideas for improving them. And so we developed ⁓ at the you know, the time the biggest obstacle for for placemaking was ⁓ you know was actually public participation and ownership. We're you know we're still still at a low point in perhaps in in local agency and participation in shaping our the world beyond our home. And so we see placemaking really is supporting and challenging everyone to to take a role in in taking responsibility for being a steward of and thinking bigger about how they can shape the world beyond their home.

speaker-0: Is there I mean, would you say that there's like a is there a primary problem or problems that the the work of placemaking is trying to solve?

speaker-1: ⁓ so it's it you know, that's it's been evolving and that you know, pretty much every year, you know, that I've been involved, there was a different sort of challenge that, you know, we took on, you know, we didn't certainly solve something within a year, but ⁓ you know very various obstacles and you know, transportation and transportation planning has been about moving people through places not to them, just degrading the very destinations they're meant to bring people to. That's been, you know, one of the biggest obstacles. But I could, you know, I could mention, you know, literally fifty more you know, from silos of government, you know, we see place as a way to sort of disrupt and support ⁓ you know, many of the sort of entrenched challenges we face in society from, you know, participation democracy building to health and ⁓ you know, and and we're seeing how many causes, you know, understand the problem well and underst and have solutions, but it's how we collaborate and organize around place that actually enables a more systemic ability to address those problems and get those solutions applied.

speaker-0: Like there's this idea that like all of our places are working perfectly, which just simply meaning they're doing what they were designed to do, right? And if we design our cities for cars, we'll get more cars. And like, and then we'll then have to deal with all the impacts of the that that metal machine and its movement as being the kind of fundamental, you know. So placemaking, I'm assuming, like, is trying to say, well, let's put as the fundamental design element the human being. But what does that even mean really? Like to to design around human versus around car or around business or commerce or something else? Like what does it mean to for the placemaking work to say, well, we want to design and shape our places with with a human at the center? Yeah, w what does that what does that mean? What does that look like?

speaker-1: well it is yeah, I mean it yeah, I think you know it started as being, you know, h human sensitive design, human centered design. and yeah, there's a infinite amount to still apply there and learn there. But it but in a way we started to see how it's it's this iterative, it's ⁓ it takes a you know, people to create a place and a you know place to create a c you know, connections between people and the c so a community. And it's that so it's it's a it's a building up more than you know, we we do we need to make sure it's not just Yeah, again to the sort of the place sensitive is just is designers being sensitive to humans and we're because we're not you know, we're not applying their solutions or getting demand for those ideas fast enough. and you know, so yeah, you're starting to say like, you know, if we plan for cars in traffic, we get cars in traffic, we plan for people in places, we get people in places. But you know, really it's how we how we challenge and empower them to to take responsibility, not just not just be consumers of the built environment, but be co creators of it. ⁓ build their agency. ⁓ and so that we talk about you know placemaking is sort of moving the paradigm from just a livability model which frankly correlates with high cost of living and negative cultural and economic gentrification yeah and sort of a monoculture around the world. and everyone deserves livability. It's not the ⁓ but we think looking leading with lovability ⁓ and place attachment I think which you know you you've you know leading been leading on but the is really w helps achieve livability more quickly, more affordably and more inclusively.

speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. And I I think ⁓ to me that's the that's a distinction kind of worth kind of teasing out a bit of the there are like even some even I've been even more fascinated, at least here kind of the metro Atlanta area, that more suburban communities have done a better job of like starting to design what some could call more like placemaking, like what How do we make these more pedestrian friendly? How do we have more like social districts and and less of this like sprawl and spread and all this kind of so there's more of that happening, but like it's there's a a difference when it feels like we're we're we're doing that as a commodity, right, versus as the work of placemaking. I mean, is that does that make sense or how would you maybe articulate the difference in like making it more livable as a as a commodity to attract folks versus Versus something else that we're aiming for. Maybe what is that something else that that we're

speaker-1: I mean the market yeah, the market is strong and that's we have to work with the markets for sure. And and and in some ways, you know, these suburban areas, we've been surprised, you know, we were kind of snob, you know, being in New Yorker where like we've said a snobby about the suburbs a lot of times. But but actually there's more pent up demand for good places in this in the suburbs. So when you do create something, there's there's a d need for it. and you know, some developers and so you know, private sector folks are looking at that. you know, part of the week in the reason we're you know, we're starting to work more with the Federal Reserve. We you we met through Through you know, working with the the New York Fed and the Flourishing Neighborhoods program there. ⁓ we're starting an an additional design team on what we call place-led development, which is trying to attract you know the private sector to invest in place and realize returns. ⁓ you know, we obvious we want the shared value to go up exponentially and the private value to, you know, go up enough to keep to drive, you know, and grow the investment in the in this space. But we see place-led development is truly leading with the place of the people there. Something S p something public, but you know, but a but then a spectrum of public to private of informal to formal. ⁓ so you know, how we how we anchor ⁓ new development, new investment that we s we in place is h I think we really disrupt the dominant development paradigm that, you know, is most apparent in the suburbs of place taking of of you know high degree of very private value, you know, private investment, you know, with little shared value. ⁓ so that's you know and we see that as a ⁓ you know, a way to sort of somehow, you know, pla ⁓ there's broad agreement that sort of corporate capitalism, the sort of place-taking culture is not working, but we're so addicted to it so that ⁓ you know that we think again it's not about being against it, but by proving that what we call place capitalism, leading with the shared value of of place is ⁓ ultimately what's gonna drive and sustain investment, ⁓ build resilience ⁓ in the market and and ⁓ and and you know environmentally as well, ⁓ socially. ⁓ and ⁓ you know, and as people can move where they like and invest where they like more and more, it's the places that pe that people love, but more importantly allow people to love them and attract people to contribute to them, those are the places that are gonna succeed most in the future.

speaker-0: I love that contrast of like like place livability and like place lovability. Like what does it mean to to love your place and to not just see it as a as a commodity or an amenity? ⁓ not ⁓ I'm not opposed to neighborhoods having amenities. They they should, right? But like ⁓ but even here when people are considering where to move, it can feel so much like ⁓ It sounds similar to language you'd use if you're shopping for a a you know, a vehicle or or an or item of clothing or something where ⁓ where we're where we're inviting people to not just benefit from the the the the qualities of that place, but to like be invested in loving that place and that kind of cycle of kind of mutual benefit. And so and so like this which is that idea of place attachment that you and I have talked a bit about that's this it's overlooked and maybe under studied in the in the worlds that we inhabit. And so like I'd love for you to kinda in your own words, like when you hear the idea of place attachment and that then that kind of sociological concept, like what it what is that and why does it matter? Yeah.

speaker-1: So yeah, how we're you know, again, not just consuming a place but actually, you know, feel a an attachment to it, is I think I think fundamental. You know, we people talk about, you know, the resilience of place is just a you know, building resilient infrastructure. But if if you no matter how much resilient infrastructure you build, if people don't love the place and want to be there, that's not resilient, right? and so that's one element of place attachment. But you but But also yeah, it also people now can choose to, you know, live and invest where they like more than ever. And, you know, whether you're a tourist you develop a sense of attachment, you develop a sense of attachment to your home. It's it's the you know, relationships that ⁓ relationships to place into people that are you know, the the fundamental building block of civilization. And ⁓ and that's you know, what we're here to do to sustain our civilization and grow it. ⁓ and it's the it's the the neurons that ⁓ the mycelium that build up consciousness, resil you know, and resilience and and you know and it's through place. It's how we, you know, f we first start to settle and build civilization is through place attachment and ⁓ and that can be very functional. ⁓ but also, you know, certainly a more evolved civilization has, you know, very you know, there's there's wisdom and and and you know and arts and creativity and you know that that emerge the innovation. or has always emerged to cultural innovation. New ideas have emerged with with this sort of mixing of deep from deep connections to people in place. ⁓ and again it's simple, it's sort of obvious, but it's no one's really focused on that. ⁓ you know, all the efforts on innovation districts we've looked at forever were missing that element. They were building near each other without any place attachment. People are making investments in the the the c the the people the the human capital and the intellectual capital was would leave after that, you know, because there was no attachment to the Yeah.

speaker-0: Yeah, and I even see efforts of like like branding, you know, neighborhoods, which like and I always wrestle with it because I'm like, but wait a second, you know, Sean, you're you're a person who would advocate and have advocated for a sense of place and identity and culture and like and the dis the places should feel and be distinct. And like and I'm not opposed to like I mean, I love logos and fonts. I have a it's not it's not my profession, but I have a obsession with those things. I think it's all fascinating. But like But it but there's always this edge of like and you can sense it when it feels like a branding effort to make it more commercially appealing versus like this is some sort of natural like outgrowth of of place attachment, this like ⁓ emotional sense of identity that that emerges out of the collective nature of a of a place. and so the the you know the world in which I

speaker-1: For sure.

speaker-0: kind of come out of to and engage in this kind of stuff is the like neighborhood revitalization world, like the where we're, you know, whether it be cities or nonprofits or or philanthropy is trying to engage in these historically deeply disadvantaged and disinvested neighborhoods ⁓ through racialized policies and disinvestments and trying to say, hey, how do we how do we reverse that and invest really deeply and restore and make sure that neighborhoods are places of great opportunity and well-being? And like and in those conversations, the obvious stuff comes up around, you know, safety, income, employment, education, affordable housing, et cetera, et cetera. But it's rare that like one of the lead topics of conversation is do people here love their neighborhood? Do people here have place attachment? Or or is there a sense of place? ⁓ so with the like the cascading demands of doing that kind of work, like How would you or why would you advocate, hey, like sense of place or place attachment really matters in what you're trying to do? It's not just about housing or economics. It is also about loving your place or place attachments. Yeah, how how would you like advocate j or justify that that has to be a lead concern in this neighborhood work?

speaker-1: well first of all, just to respond to your your early point that I you know, branding is ⁓ it's it's a ⁓ it it does sort of cheapen it. It's but it also is really powerful. The places do have brands. Whether I I don't like the fact that you know, I don't like the idea that they do sometimes, but it is the identity. But yes, a stronger, more authentic brand is one that emerges from that community more organically and out of a process. It's not something you stamp on it as this is the arts district or this is the you know worth it. ⁓ that that does make it more consumptive and and but yeah how that relates to you know you know you know lower income neighborhoods and communities and you know communities that are struggling ⁓ you know you know you know one you know one lens is that you know we have seen they're sometimes better at creating place attachment and sociability and you know deeper connections to to to the place and people ⁓ then you know certainly a lot of there's a lot of upscale slums and is a is a contrast in this country in the world, you know, the people living in towers and gated communities where there extre you know, strong loneliness and isolation and and you know, mental health issues and ⁓ you know, so that again there's those issues all exist in low income neighborhoods for sure and you know, and there's persistent poverty and and but, you know, a way there's you know there's not one path out of those those of that of that and and ⁓ so how you know how we build on and support ⁓ you know lower income neighborhoods as as social places, as places of of lovability, of of of more informal expression of culture and of economies and you know i is is something to to build on and and and support and you know and how and how less quote less developed parts of this country of the world can can leapfrog and avoid the mistakes of you know the the the very developed and wealthier parts of this country.

speaker-0: We are so grateful to have you listening in to these rich conversations about place-based people-centered social change. Places People Change is not only the title of the podcast, but it's also the title of community engagement resources you can download and put into practice today. If you are looking for sound principles and practical tools to drive neighborhood level belonging and shared action, you can check them out at DiscoverCongruence.com/slash resources. Please. Yeah. I mean, what do you think is the risk? Like so if like you know, maybe government, philanthropy, nonprofit, they all they they c the business sector, they come together to like do this deep neighborhood of vitalization work and driven by like really good values of equity, inclusion and thinking about it, all the racialized harm that's been done. And so like you'd say like from a values perspective, from a historical honesty perspective, like is all the right kind of motives and work. But if they if they were to do all of that work and not keep in consideration the work of of placemaking or place attachment. Like what's the ri like what what's what's the loss there if if that's not a core part of the work that's been done?

speaker-1: I mean a lot of you even the most progressive solutions, if they're not, you know, respecting and building local capacity and local expertise, you're you're gonna be degrading it. and ⁓ you know, it just just serving people as a s set of solutions, you know, even if they're the right solutions that need to be adapted more, you know, there has to be an element that's you know, building and supporting people's connection to each other into place and it's a virtuous cycle. That and that's the transformation story. We're you know, at best a lot of the sort of input, output models of investment development are a linear growth. And we need, you know, we need to move faster than that. And we need transformation that stories that that often do build a really authentic, exciting brand. You know, that's the story of unfolding of how people b you know, that's stories are what culture is built on and culture is what changes faster. Culture is the most authentic transformation changes. Culture is what a lot of, you know, racialized groups and, you know, lower income groups, ⁓ can connect to and and and and create. ⁓ you know, that's you know, you know, obviously, you know, in here in New York, you know, you know, the the best culture, arts culture, you know, has come out of challenged parts of the city and and you know and and because of certain mi you know mixing and ⁓ and that's I think it's true in this you know in this country too. You think about the blues and R and B and you know and ⁓ you know all these you know they they came out of places of of ⁓ of hardship. But ⁓ connection and and creativity as well.

speaker-0: Man, but I I think so much about kind of as you're the talking about the just the the this the the dynamic of agency that like that this that even if all the right domains around housing or economics are being worked on, if it's being done for me or on me or at me or around me, but it doesn't include me, like there's still this profound harm that's done in all of that and are like our Our colleague David Erickson and his his book around the the fifth freedom and like he he talks a bit about ⁓ about hope about this sense of like I believe that I am affecting the direction of my place and I am hopeful about that and that those very things which can feel ⁓ you know maybe too subjective or they don't feel concrete enough, but actually people are studying that to say, no, when people possess that sense of hopefulness and agency. in their place. And it has all these other like profound ⁓ benefits to them as individual people and their own health, but also it it actually impacts the economy of of that neighborhood when people live with that that sense within them.

speaker-1: For sure, yeah. ⁓ and and you you know you mentioned housing and actually, you know, and it's obviously the biggest issue now, it's you know, it's the biggest shift, you know, in politics and and sort of ⁓ in you know many fields right now. ⁓ and I think h housing and housing affordability w has been and is still a big blind spot of placemaking, but I also think a big blind spot of housing is placemaking. And so we're you we're ⁓ as you're alluding to, I think the you know, we're building Housing units, we're building, you know, you know, housing projects ⁓ that are, you know, just a just a cog. They're disconnected from place attachment, from from place from from local economies, local culture, and and often degrading that. And and you know, again, our works have emerged out of like the sixties and seventies at a time when we're making a lot of mistakes, destroying the fabric of neighborhoods and building housing projects. Yeah. Really don't work today. And I'm afraid we're making some of those same mistakes again. ⁓ when again it can it should be it shouldn't be a either or, it should be a yes and it should be, you know, investing in place drives viability and demand for investment in housing and ⁓ and vice versa.

speaker-0: Yeah, I'd like I've noticed that and thought about that where where an unspoken philosophy or mindset around some affordable housing work is like doesn't feel very human, right? Like it feels like ⁓ we're just trying to it's almost like we're putting cars in a garage. Like we just need a a a a a shelter to put a human's body into. And even if we're driven by justice and equity and and and all the right kind of, you know, key values or whatever, it can the end product that's being designed and created doesn't feel very doesn't feel like we're designing this for human beings for

speaker-1: We're creating houses and space. We're creating houses and spaces, not homes and places. It's a you know, it's a mechanistic worldview, instead of a human worldview, think.

speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, that yeah, that that makes a ton of yeah. I think that that mechanistic sense, I think that that resonates a lot with me on what ⁓ the way some of this plays out. You know, you we so I was thinking about we we have talked a bit about that ⁓ Knight foundation study from years ago around the soul of the community. And like one of the questions they're basically looking at is like what makes people love where they live? Yeah. ⁓ and some ⁓ and in all of your experiences, like I'm curious at some of your observations on like What are the kinds of things, whether expected or unexpected, that like that help us spark a sense of I love my place at a at a deeper kind of level?

speaker-1: Yeah. Well that I mean that study, you is is very old now, but really, you know, challenged us and opened up our eyes. You know, it it in this is you know, I understand the study went in thinking that, you know, what made people love where they live were things that, you know, like like parks and jobs and you know, schools. And, you know, of course you think about it, you know, that's you know, something many many communities create and and it's it's you know, again, sort of that consumptive model. ⁓ and so there was very little correlation, but there was a high correlation between you know, places that were welcoming. that were had opportunities for social engagement and and had a good aesthetics. But aesthetics alone wouldn't lead to attachment. And it's I the way I I think about what that taught me about what you know people love about a place is it's it's similar to what, you know, when you create attachment with a person, you feel welcome to to talk to them. You like engaging them socially and yeah, maybe aesthetically you like to you know but aesthetically alone that's not going to create deeper real connection. And and so you know s you know similarly about a place it's you know the ⁓ these are pl ⁓ the places of you know where there's openness. You know, there's studies that show that like, you know, markets and playgrounds and like beaches are places where people are most comfortable being around people of difference. ⁓ but diversity alone isn't equality. You you need diversity with interaction and with equ you know, and and and and equality to to make to have diversity be of value. So you know, in way diversity with a lot of focus on diversity, that's you know, that's needed. ⁓ but I I always think of like a good ecosystem, a good community also ha has a has diversity, equality, and interaction. You need them to be investing in all three together for them to be each to be valuable. Any one of them alone actually is valueless in a sense. Diversity alone, there's there's no connection between it. It's a it's a ⁓ you know it's it's it's it you you miss you know you're you're missing the opportunity for sure. ⁓ if not worse, if not you know having divisions. but so but yeah what makes people feel you know, to love a place is, you know, is as you know, not just you're consuming it, but I said, but feeling like they're contributing. And so you know, and that's you know, we're seeing that with tourism is very clearly that, you know, tourists want to not just, you know, check off that I went there, but they want to feel like they had a interaction that with the people they w traveled with, with people they they're meeting there that they're that not just was taking but giving, you know. So people aren't opp you know, they're not given opportunities to give and so placemaking is a about a process of getting everyone that the local, the tourists, the investors giving them the opportunity to and the mechanisms to contribute to the culture, the economy, the d the identity of a place.

speaker-0: Yeah, but you know, one of the things ⁓ that that old that study talked about was the idea of like ⁓ place optimism. Like I'm hopeful about the future. I feel good about where we're going. And what's interesting to me is like ⁓ place optimism doesn't necessarily ⁓ directly correlate with like the measurable statistics on how, you know, safe or wealthy or healthy or whatever a neighborhood might actually be. Like you can be in a a higher income quote. you know, quote, healthy neighborhood, strong air quotes on that, ⁓ that like there's not a lot of optimism about the future and where things are going. Or you could be in what on the outside looks like a disadvantaged place, but you can engage the residents there and they can feel all that sense of optimism towards the future and what's what's happening. Like have you seen some of the dynamics of like what sparks that sense of place optimism in people, regardless of like maybe what the data says about the neighborhood you're living in.

speaker-1: Yeah, I I th I mean that I think that speaks to the idea that people want to be part of a story. They want to see themselves as part of an evolution, a continuum, you know, ⁓ a movement. You know, that's that's really sparks relationship to place into people. ⁓ and that's there's a transformation and that's you know, like you know, Detroit's the city like we've worked the most in over the last, you know, thirty years or more and and ⁓ yeah, it's not as livable as as any other city, but there's this feeling and and lots of tensions and you know that are that drive learning and and ⁓ you know, creativity and action ⁓ between different groups that have lived there a long time and new ones coming in, new investment. but there's a you know a general sense overall that people feel like they're they wanna be contributing to that story. They wanna ⁓ they're invited to be part of the the you know innovative culture economy and and and social community there.

speaker-0: Yeah. I mean, I'm just so fascinated at how like it's it's both profoundly like economic and pragmatic and also not in the sense of like the reason we go about placemaking isn't just for commercial or commodification reasons, but actually if we do it well, like it becomes more economically vibrant, like public health will increase, like All these other indicators that we try to measure for for healthy cities and healthy neighborhoods will go up. ⁓ but it's almost like w but we've got it kind of in the in the wrong place, like rather as a leading a commodity leading type of ⁓ of thinking, but and getting away from that mechanistic ⁓ type of approach. ⁓ yeah, and I'm I'm encouraged to see, so you know, here in Atlanta our you know, our colleague David Edwards is working in the mayor's office of really trying to say like

speaker-1: Tank.

speaker-0: How do we instead of having all these siloed departments, you know, as you're describing, what if they were organized around ⁓ that neighborhood was the driving thought and not just your whether it be police or education, but like but letting the localized place be our driving thing. and that that as a future for neighborhood health that comes up to like societal or global health to me is a is a is a hopeful and encouraging ⁓ thing to be thinking about.

speaker-1: For sure. Yeah. That's that's definitely the future. And there's infinite learning to how we all, you know, work together to do that. And you know, we want to network that that learning. ⁓ because people, you know, the people closest to community do know best, but they need to be connected to other people to other people around the world that have overcome similar challenges. And that's you know, and they're because people are coming at it from different strengths and challenges around the world, you know, but we're all, you know, it's you know, it's amazing that you know, we we've very quickly been able to connect people working in place. globally 'cause they all have s are so excited about they love place and they all have so much to go. They have nothing in common but they connect immediately because they all have so much to teach each other. So we're all, you know, we're now sort of one degree connected to like the biggest innovators around the world. And you I'm lucky 'cause of I grew up with this. So I've met so many amazing people that have so much to teach. But the limiting factor isn't that you know, isn't that again, the problems are the solutions, it's it's networking the the the collective learning advocacy and action. ⁓ for that work and then you the collective story of people doing this really.

speaker-0: Yeah. And I'm yeah, I just mean thank you a thousand times over for this conversation. But more importantly, just thank you for just what you're doing every day. I mean, I think ⁓ like it ⁓ I I I'm struggling I th I I think to to feel a general sense of hopefulness that I think my my eyes are up on like national landscape and all and it just feels like whenever I open the slash you know newspaper on my app on my my phone, I'm like, ⁓ geez, what's coming next? And it can and and I and I can in reality can be defined by things that are yeah. ⁓ yeah and I and so it's when I connect in with you, ⁓ when I we like look at what placemaking is doing and and like when I just even scrolling your website of just the different people and the hundreds of communities around the world, it's just this it's just this like fresh breeze of like, ⁓ like there are so many beautiful people out there doing so many beautiful things. And I I want I want my reality to be anchored in that. Like not so that I ignore the harder stuff, but so that I can go out towards that harder stuff from a place of hopefulness at the beautiful people doing all these beautiful things in our world.

speaker-1: It's a much more authentic power than the the sort of the narratives of power, which are really j you know, really just narratives. It's less the you know, the toxic sort of nationalism and monoculture around the world is is not, you know, is actually ⁓ fragile. It's more fragile than than people's connection to place. And and you know, that's yeah, so we ha I you know, we have to I'm you know I'm not sure how it's gonna look. That's the part of the question that's sort of the unfolding, but it's we're it's a small world right now. We're connected to ⁓ our placemaking US network wrote an article about with with some Iranian some you know some Persian placemaking folks about you know people's daily lives around place in Iran and you start to you know realize at that scale, you know, we're still ⁓ you know we're not that different. and life is going on and you know it's we don't want to just see them through the lens of of war or an or see anyone through the lens of of conflict. There are we have a strong Arab placemaking network and You know, there is at the at the human scale it's amazing, you know, the the differences that are bridged. ⁓ and the the you know, people no one you know, people are all problem solvers at that scale.

speaker-0: Yeah. Man, well thank you so much for this. If so if if people want to get more involved, learn more, like become more proactive in in the work of engaging in placemaking or connecting with others who are doing that, like where do they go? How do they do that? Like what would you ⁓ how would you invite our our listeners to jump in?

speaker-1: So yeah, I mean you know, in most cities and towns there are people doing placemaking on on our on the Place Making X website you can sign up as an advocate ⁓ and there and you can also search for any town you go to to connect with other advocates and and place makers. There's and there's national and regional networks. ⁓ you know, there's a place making US network, a Canada network and so forth, ⁓ you know, covering most many corners of the world. ⁓ and there's conferences where you know we have upcoming ⁓ project for public spaces running the a place making week in Detroit in in in late June that I'll be at many folks will be at. ⁓ and there's you know, we do a lot of online webinars and discussions. ⁓ but we really all place being people are bridgers of different worlds and populations. So we love that people come at this from every discipline and sector and demographic. ⁓ and that's that's really what we need too, is people to bridge bridge worlds. ⁓ so yeah, we welcome we this having conversations like this is so so valuable and ⁓ Yeah, invite everyone to to to lead that conversation and we we're here to support you to lead this conversation from in whatever world you're coming from.

speaker-0: Awesome. Well Ethan, thank you so much just for who you are, for the influence you're having in the world, just just what you represent and what you embody. Thank you so much for that and and for your time today in this conversation.

speaker-1: Thank you, Sean. Really, really fun to talk about.

speaker-0: Awesome. Thanks. One of the things about this conversation that most resonates with me is the thought that people want to be a part of a story. We are not just inhabitants of shelters or consumers of goods and services. We are people in search of home, of community, of culture, of beauty, of purpose, of belonging. In other words, we all need a sense of place, an attachment to where we live. Place attachment improves health outcomes, strengthens economies, increases public safety, and makes our lives and communities not just more livable, but more lovable. This is why the work of placemaking matters so much. We need more, as Ethan calls them, zealous nuts who are willing to draw neighbors together to exercise their collective power to make our neighborhoods vibrant, joyful, and life-giving places. To get involved and to learn more about placemaking and their networks, trainings, events, and practices, check out placemakingx.org. And please join us for our next episode where we speak with a nationally recognized placemaking leader, Katie Yellow, about her work in activating neighbors to transform their neighborhoods. Thank you for listening to Places People Change. Visit us at placespeoplechange. com for extended interviews, more information on our guests and their work, show notes, transcripts, and resources to go deeper. Please subscribe and follow us wherever you get your podcast. Special thanks to Acia Butler and the Residents Association of Greater Englewood for the use of their song People, Passion Power, as the music for this series. Find out more about them at raginglewood. Places People Change is brought to you by Tim Rhodes, producer and A V engineer, David Park, producer and booking manager, Lucas Duncan, production and design assistant, and me, Sean Duncan, your host. We are the roots, we are the rise, hearts on fire, truth in our eyes. From these blocks we build a towers. People passion power.