Jackie Hering: Hey everyone, and welcome to the Women's Race podcast. I'm your host, Jackie Herring. Thank you very much for joining me for the first episode. I'm a little bit nervous about this for no reason whatsoever because I talk all the time. And just you guys are here listening today. I've wanted to do something like this for ⁓ quite a long time and I'm really excited to actually do it. And I think it's coming to life because This podcast is not actually about me. It's going to be about pro women's triathlon. It's going to cover results in triathlon. It's going to cover different pro triathletes stories. And I'm going to have on a different cohost or a guest with me, hopefully most every week. And I'm going to aim to get current pro triathletes so we can talk through results, talk through what they're going through and different races that they have on their radar. A little about me. I am currently a pro triathlete. I'm in my 15th year as a professional middle and long distance triathlete. So I mostly focus on Ironman and half Ironman races. And the last few years that has been the Ironman pro series. Through this podcast, I will definitely be telling stories from the pro series races and also anything that happens behind the scenes at these events that I know of. ⁓ so I'm super excited. You guys heard first episode and I had to call in the big dog. ⁓ we got Paula Finley on today. She is an expert podcast. She has her own podcast with her brand TTL that everyone probably listens to. ⁓ but she is going to show me the way here, ⁓ today. So Paula, thank you for being here. Paula: Hahaha See ya! ⁓ thanks for having me. Yeah. I, I'm a little nervous too, cause our, our podcast is like Q and A. So people send in questions and I can generally answer them pretty well, but I'm honored to be on episode number one of this podcast. I was really excited when you told me you're starting this project. And I do think there is a gap of like really female focused ⁓ discussion around the racing that's going on. So, ⁓ yeah, good job, Jackie. And I hope it. Jackie Hering: Yeah. Paula: Hope it kicks off well. ⁓ Thanks for having me. Jackie Hering: ⁓ we're gonna kick it off well. ⁓ Yes, the reason I kind of got going in my mind about getting into this topic is of course we have ⁓ several kind of outlets now with podcasts that are covering pro racing and I think they do a good job going through results. ⁓ But they're covering the men and the women and I do think just because there are more men racing that it does tend to be more men heavy in a lot of these reports about the races. And not only that, but these hosts also happen to be men. So I just don't think they're going to be paying as close attention to the women's racing as we are, obviously, because we're in it. So, yeah, I thought we could just kick it off straight away with just getting down about Ironman Texas. Obviously, I was there. I feel like you were watching as an aspiring Ironman. ⁓ How much of it did you actually watch? Paula: Yeah. Yeah. So I've been racing for 20 years now. My first triathlon was in 2006. So I'm very experienced, but I've yet to do a full Ironman. And it's so funny because at this phase of my career, I feel like I'm old and I need to do one right away because I want to do one before I retire. So I was talking at the beginning of the year about doing Texas as my first one and had a bit of illness and injury. So that got pushed back. But I was completely tuned in. actually didn't watch the start cause it was very early here on the West coast, but I ran on the treadmill so I could watch you guys bike and run and yeah, watched you all the way to the finish. So I'm a super fan of the sport. Not only do I race, but I'm also like following it super closely. So yeah, I thought the coverage was okay though. They had, they did a lot of like the quad box so you could see four different viewing options. ⁓ The commentary was pretty good. think it's really hard for these commentators to talk for nine hours, but they do the best they can. I don't know, sometimes I have it on mute, visually it's fine. Yeah. I think they do definitely miss a lot of the stories that are unfolding behind the front leaders though, which is too bad because there are a lot of interesting things that are happening between like third and sixth, especially in the women's race, right? Which is where you fell. Jackie Hering: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, not till the end when they had absolutely nothing else to show. The men were finished. Taylor and Solvig are finished. They're like, who else is out there? Let's go find them. ⁓ yeah, I mean, that's, that's kinda, I guess, why, why I want to talk about this stuff to begin with. So obviously, I mean, I have the results, some here, but everybody saw it. Solvig was in first. ⁓ Taylor. Paula: So I didn't see you much on the broadcast. Yum! Yeah, yeah. Jackie Hering: And then I can't even remember. ⁓ yeah, Marta Sanchez. I was chasing her down. ⁓ You know, weird stuff happened in that race. And first off, we had Kat, who I'd say was like the absolute favorite. Everyone's heard there truly was a bunch of junk along the highway, like random chunks of metal, nails, like in the area that we were riding. It wasn't like she had just randomly ridden off into the shoulder where she wasn't supposed to go. It was like, Paula: Yes. Yeah. Jackie Hering: stuff all over the place and we were on the second lap, you're dodging so many age groupers that it almost felt like, wow, if I get through this, like, I'm really, I'm really doing good. Yeah. Seriously. Yeah. But yeah, I mean. Paula: That's the goal here is just to get off the bike. Yeah. That's what it sounded like. mean, watching from my perspective, it's what makes me nervous about doing an Ironman is lap two when you are trying to navigate a lot of athletes on course. And it looks scary to me. I don't know. I guess age groupers are expecting the pros to come by hopefully. So they're leaving room for you on the left. Is that right? You can usually get by without screaming or is it pretty hairy? Jackie Hering: Yeah, I think in this case, in some races, I think it's a little bit better. ⁓ In this case, it was good that we didn't have to think about cars the whole time. That's a plus. But I'd say a negative is that there is very little space and there's a period of time where the women were heading out on the toll road. So we're like passing towards the center and then the men are coming back. So they're passing all them on that center. Paula: Yeah. Jackie Hering: we were close by each other, like going very fast this way and they're going fast. So it seems like a scenario where somehow there needs to be like a lane for lap one and a lane for lap two. Like everyone needs a lane and it is kind of a big highway. I actually didn't check if it could, it could handle that or not, but yeah. Paula: You're really close. Right. Would be safer. If that was feasible. Yeah. And T 100 racing, which you've done a little bit of, they want us to ride left and pass right. So you are riding on the center line. And then if there is an out and back course, you're really close to the athletes that are oncoming. It's not as scary because there's obviously way less athletes, but yeah, I don't know. I've only ever done 70.3s, which are one loop and you don't have to generally worry about passing a lot of people. So, um, my question for you though is how much. Jackie Hering: Yeah. Paula: flat repair stuff do you take? Like in Kat's situation, obviously she had a catastrophic flat where she couldn't have repaired it even though she did have stuff. Are you carrying stuff with you? Jackie Hering: Yeah. I carry stuff for a flat and what happened to me in Hamburg is kind of what it looks like happened to Kat where it's just like, no matter what you have with you, you're not going to be able to fix it. And that is just super sad because you just can, you're just standing there like, I literally need another wheel with a tut. I just need another wheel, which in, which should be a possibility. Somebody should be able to say, here you go. Here's another wheel. Like that should exist. Paula: Yeah. helpless. Yes, at the front of the race, totally. Jackie Hering: ⁓ But I just carry, you know, I've got loads of sealant in there. So I'm just carrying like a CO2 and a adapter thing to just put more CO2 in there. I'm not carrying a tube or a plug. I'm really like either they're going to a mechanic's going to come by and hopefully help me give me another wheel or I'm going to put in more air and it's just going to seal itself. So, yeah. Paula: So not a plug. Okay. Mm-hmm. Right, yeah, I think that's pretty standard. Usually in a half I don't carry anything, which maybe that's bad idea, but I've, knock on wood. Jackie Hering: Yeah, in a half, well yeah, if you got a stop in a half, you could still win sometimes, but it would be tough. Yeah. Paula: Your day is kind of done. Well, after the race, Eric was talking about his dream. Eric's my husband, is to be the tech moto with, because he could then like ride around and help people. He's thinking about like top 15 women kind of thing, like being near the front of the race. And he could film and get content at the same time. But he's like, it's so simple just to have like gear that could kind of help everybody. Jackie Hering: Yeah. Paula: and to do it quickly instead of just coming to these races and having the mechanic from your local shop who means well and wants to help, but maybe not, doesn't have the skillset or the resources on his motor to like be effective. So I don't know, hopefully they'll make changes because of this incident, but it was sad to see you're standing there. Jackie Hering: Yeah. It was terrible and like Shimano is one of her main sponsors and I'm pretty sure Shimano like sponsors Iron Man. So I know all of us, most all of us have plenty of wheels in our wheelhouse. We could easily bring a wheel or I'm sure ⁓ they want Kat to do well. Shimano would say, hey yo, here's some wheels. Just put them on the moto. Like we don't want it. We don't want some crappy training wheel. Paula: Yeah. Yes, some extra discs. Yeah, it was crazy. Jackie Hering: thrown on our bike, like give us a nice wheel. So yes, I do really, I think, you know, it's sad it had to happen to like somebody really good for it to get attention, but that's just how it goes. Like no one cares unless it really affects things. So with, yeah, she looked, she looked like kind of distraught, but also like she was just standing there doing nothing. But then I saw her. Paula: Yeah, I know. Totally. Did you see her standing there? Like, did you know she'd pulled out? Jackie Hering: Like when she started riding again, she was going the other direction. I'm like, why in the world? Because she was standing there forever. Paula: Yeah. She lost like 25, 30 minutes or something. Jackie Hering: Yeah, and then she was still going. I'm like, dang, if she catches me by the end of this ride, that's going to be so depressing. Yeah. ⁓ Paula: Yeah, the pro series makes it interesting because you're trying to fit in three Ironmans in the year, ⁓ So you're kind of, I'm imagining she's doing some math, like what is the point of finishing? At what point is it worth it to get points, even though I'm going to lose a lot. But I'm sure you think about those things too as you're going, right? Jackie Hering: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was interesting. can say for this race, like I had like the perfect mindset that led me to have a good race because I was on operation. Like you're finishing this thing. Like I needed to get a, I wanted to get a Kona slot and to do that, you have to make sure that you don't blow up, which for me leads me to race like extremely conservatively. So ⁓ on the swim, I started all by myself. I didn't want to touch anybody. Paula: Mm. Jackie Hering: And this pack formed, like I always swim really good with Solvang and I've swam with Kat pretty much every Ironman that we've done together. So I just sat in the back of that group the whole way. was like literally energy conservation for me all day long until like 18 miles into the run. And then I was like, okay, now we go. Yeah. But. Paula: Yeah. Then it hurts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jackie Hering: It's kind of, actually think I might race more Ironmans like that. Even, you know, it's not like attack mode, but it's like be smart mode. And, and I think it kind of, it kind of worked even though like I'm too embarrassed to post my Watts out in public. Like it was so bad. It was my worst. It was my lowest Ironman Watts ever. ⁓ but it got the job done. Like. Paula: Yeah, but it's just so like, yeah, for sure. As I was watching and you see the gaps that to the front, Taylor Racing and Solvay are big, but the game is definitely not over until everyone crosses the finish line and still to come forth, even though you were being conservative and maybe had low watts on the bike is still, that kind of shows how Ironman requires being patient and smart and maybe not attacking from the start. Jackie Hering: Yeah, it's just, it's just, gotta, you gotta play the game out there. And I think, you know, from what I've seen from Taylor so far, she races the exact opposite of that, ⁓ which I think, or maybe she was more conservative, supposedly I've heard on the bike this year, but I think there is a lot of patience required in Ironman. I think Solveig is like the queen of patience, like we saw in Kona and it was cool. Paula: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jackie Hering: you know, just to see them, how quick they go off. And I actually planned to put calf sleeves on in transition into one, because I didn't want to get like sucked along trying to keep up to like solving and cat coming out of transition. Cause that like messes me up where I'm like, ⁓ like I don't want to get dropped. And it's like, no, I need to completely do my own race and not even be sucked. Paula: so you want it to set off alone. ⁓ interesting. Jackie Hering: even think about these people, because I'm not trying to, I'm not going an 8-11. Like, I'm not keeping up with Solvang on the bike. I need to do my own thing. So. Paula: Yes, to avoid future catastrophe. What's the idea behind putting calf sleeves on? Do you think it really saves that much time versus how long it takes to put them on? Jackie Hering: Yeah, right. Yeah, so. I'm not sure, except that it feels good. And there is something with like helping, I don't know what it is, like blood flow or something. think it also like, I don't have much scientific evidence for this, except that it makes me feel fast. It makes my legs feel good. And I've never had any stomach problems when I wear calf sleeves. And if any scientist out there can explain this to me. Paula: ⁓ it does? Okay. Mm-hmm. Really? Jackie Hering: Please do. Paula: That's interesting, like improved circulation or something maybe. Jackie Hering: something is going on or it's all in my head. I just keep them on. Yeah, I love them on the run. Paula: So do you like it also on the run? Well, even though that Okay, I wasn't sure if maybe they're uncomfortable on the run and people just deal with it or if it's helpful. Jackie Hering: No, I like them. And I don't wear just like, I'm not like wearing the Aero ones, I'm wearing like compression ones. Paula: ⁓ interesting. Okay. Jackie Hering: I think some people just wear the arrow ones and I don't know if... Yeah, I put them on because it was non-wetsuit. I think we should do justice to the ladies here at Texas and go through and I can tell you about these people. Marta was ahead of me. I had caught her in Oceanside and I'm pretty sure this woman runs the same pace for half Ironmans as she runs for Ironmans because she looked the exact same. Paula: Did you put them on? You put them on, right? Yeah, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, on the run. Jackie Hering: as she did in Oceanside. In Oceanside, was like, she looks like she's running a marathon and she looked the same. I thought I was closing the gap and she was running the same pace. She had her fastest marathon. It was her first time. She snuck right under three hours. So good for her. I was in fourth. Honestly, nothing special there. Grace Theck. I spent almost all day with Grace Theck and it was a lot of fun. We had some good banter. Paula: when she was. Jackie Hering: back and forth chatting on the bike. You know how I like to do that. And then on the run, I waited for her a little bit in transition because I was like, we're doing this day. I knew she was trying to get Kona and she's a good runner. So I thought we could run together and actually I chatted with her before the race about it. Like, hey, if we're by each other, let's go run. I'll run a 255. Like we'll get Kona. No problem. She's like, OK. Paula: Yes. Mm-hmm. Jackie Hering: So I waited and we started off running and we had a hilarious first mile trying to figure out what the matchup of K pace and mile pace was. Like neither of us knew this conversion. Paula: Right. Yes. I don't either. Actually, I got a new watch today. It's a Coros that was showing me miles on my run and I had no clue what the hell that meant. So unless. Jackie Hering: Okay. Yeah, yeah. So I'm like, okay, I'm trying to go this pace for a marathon. She's like, I'm going this pace. I'm like, I don't know. I'm like, let's just forget. Let's just like vibe. And so we did that. It was fun. Paula: Who knows? But you said you had to kind of pull her back a bit and be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, let's slow down. Jackie Hering: Yeah, yeah, in the start, she was she was really feeling. mean, I was feeling fine, too. We're both feeling good. So we're she was kind of like she would go and I'm like, no, we have to go slower. Like we're I'm pretty sure we're not running that fast today. I'm not sure, but I thought the fastest I could possibly go would be like low to 50s. And we were like pacing for that at the start. And then I'm like, could feel. Paula: Mm-hmm. Jackie Hering: We probably needed to dial it back a tiny bit, but we did. And I heard, ⁓ I didn't watch the coverage yet, but I like to find people out on course to run with. So there was a age group guy that came up by this kid, this Peyton, he was a young guy and he ran by right next to me. I was on the second loop. Grace was behind me at that moment. And I just like started running with him and I thought Grace would come and she didn't. And so I just ran with him for a whole loop. Paula: Mm-hmm. Okay. Jackie Hering: and then was alone for a tiny bit and then found another, some Foley racing guy, ran the rest of the way with him. So I love, I love doing that. Paula: Yeah, and he crossed the line with you, pretty much. Yeah. I mean, it's a unique trait, I think, of you particularly to have this camaraderie feeling on course versus a killer instinct where you want to just beat everyone out there. And I think it helps you, but it's very individual. And I find when I'm out there, I'm a little bit more, you know, I want to beat everybody. And sometimes that's to my disadvantage because I'll like go too hard or not pace myself properly. It's super fun racing with you because that's kind of what you prefer. And I think it gets more out of yourself, right? When you can feed off of other people's energies and it's more fun. Jackie Hering: It's way... It's just more fun. I mean, I would definitely wait for you in transition. I'm just saying. Paula: Yeah. ⁓ thank you. I don't know if I'd wait for you though. Jackie Hering: If you were... That's fine, I'll try to catch you. It's fine. Because I know you want to run with me. You just forgot to wait. Paula: Yeah, you'll catch me. I do. Yeah, think I, ⁓ you're a little more experienced at the full iron distance than Grace. And I think it's something I might struggle with too, is feeling like holding back for the first half, because where it gets hard is at like 30K, right? So you got to be smart till then. But you are. Jackie Hering: Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, I was done. It was nice in the start, I'm like, ⁓ is this your second Iron Man or whatever? And she's like, yeah. I'm like, all right. She's like, how many have you done? I'm like, I have lost track. ⁓ Yeah, we're just going to, this is the pace we're going today, Grace. But it was super fun. And then in sixth, I'm actually friends with Sarah Spanx. Paula: You lost count. So just go my pace. I know how to do it. Yeah. Jackie Hering: ⁓ she's great. She, ⁓ wants to hire me as her swim coach, but I can't help her cause she loves too far away. But she's one of those like. Paula: You could center swim programs or swimsets, couldn't you? Jackie Hering: No, but I want to help her except then she will beat me because she's like a super good like bike runner. But yeah, she was coming in. She also got under a three hour marathon. Good for her. Okay. Hannah Berry and seventh Hannah. This is like her first bad Iron Man she's ever had. Paula: Mm. Yeah, she was going backwards a bit on the bike and the run. Jackie Hering: So, yeah. And I don't know if you saw her stories and you heard why. It's kinda crazy. Paula: I did. Usually I don't watch Instagram stories all the way through, but I was really curious. She changed gear. Right? Jackie Hering: It's. She literally changed her chainring from a 56 to a 60 one by the day before. Paula: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jackie Hering: She knows that was silly. Paula: She said it herself. Jackie Hering: She said it herself. And if anybody out there is listening, learn from Hannah. This is not a good idea. You just stick with what you got. You stick with what you trained on. Even if it's not perfect, guess what? You're gonna be fine. If you spin out four times during a race, it is really not the end of the world. It's probably actually good in an Ironman to rest your legs for a couple minutes. So. Paula: Who cares? Yeah, I wonder if this is a bit of an effect of the men's racing and the T100. You go into Foy's mechanic room the day before the race and he's swapping out chain rings like crazy because everyone's like, I need a bigger chain ring, I need a bigger chain ring. And the men are riding like 64s or bigger. And I think that gets in our heads a little bit where we're like, do I have too small of a chain ring? And do I need a one by versus a two by? And you're right, Jackie, if you just ride what you train with and what you're comfortable with. Jackie Hering: Yes! Paula: you're gonna be better off than trying to mess with it unless you're practicing it obviously for a little bit before the race. But it's an honest mistake, but it sucks. Jackie Hering: I have done the same mistake. I fell victim to it. And you're right with the T100, because it happened to me at the T100. Because yeah, there's so much chatter about chainrings. Paula: In Vegas. Was it Vegas? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Jackie Hering: Like, what a privileged group of people to have multiple chain rings laying around. I've never met so many people with so many options in my life as the T100 group of people. Paula: Well, the T100 also just like has extras, so they're offering them up. ⁓ But on a course like Texas, like a 1x is better if you are used to the gearing because it's flat. Jackie Hering: has them. It's crazy. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I definitely didn't use my little chainring at all. I feel like I barely shifted, but like three times that whole race, you're just like kind of like hunkered down. Paula: Yeah, if you're... Yeah, but Hannah's problem was she was stuck between gears. Like if you have a one by, you just really don't have as many gear options. So she said her ideal cadence of like 85 was impossible given the cassette at the back, right? That was her problem. Yeah, that's a tricky one. Jackie Hering: Yeah, so she ended up with a lower cadence and then her back was all locked up and she couldn't run. Very sad. Paula: Yeah. What is your, what's your average cadence for an Iron Man? Jackie Hering: I'm similar. I'm in like the mid 80s probably. I think most people are around that like 85 ish. I should go back and look but it's I don't think about cadence too much. I just do whatever feels comfortable. So. Alright and then past Hannah in eighth place is this girl Jana Uderstadt. She's German. I've met her I think twice. Paula: Yeah, okay. Yeah, that's what I do for a half. Mm-hmm. That's smart. Do what you train with. Jackie Hering: in Hamburg and then she passed me when I was doing my death march in Kona last year and she was so nice. She was chatting to me, ⁓ run with me. She was encouraging me. I'm like, yo, I am having a near death experience. You go on, leave me for dead. Anyways, she's just. Paula: Uh-uh. Yeah. This is so crazy. Do you think people in the women's race are too nice? I don't think the men are doing this to each other. Jackie Hering: I'm not sure. I did hear, you know, listening to Yela's kind of recount of his thing. It sounds like other guys were encouraging him. I think they'll encourage each other when they can tell, okay, this guy's for sure dead. Like, he's not coming back. ⁓ In my case, know, Grace, like encouraging Grace, whatever, she could have beat me. Like, I wasn't totally sure at that point, but. Paula: Okay. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's worth it. Jackie Hering: It's worth, it's like good race mojo. Paula: Totally, I agree with you, but it is very different, I feel, from the outside. Jackie Hering: So yeah, I'm not sure. We should ask some of the men how much they're encouraging each other and chatting. Paula: Yeah, versus just wanting to kill each other for eight hours. Jackie Hering: Right. ⁓ that Yana. So yeah, she's a little bit slower swimmer, but a general all arounder. And then in Kate Curran, ninth place, she got a Kona slot. think it was her second Ironman. I swam, I don't know if you've had any swims with Kate Curran, but we were, ⁓ in a bit of a battle for some feet and it was kind of annoying because Paula: Yeah. Jackie Hering: I was trying to chill the F out and we just kept doing our arms like at the same time. I'm like, this is so unnecessary, but we couldn't quite find, we couldn't find the right. So I'm pretty sure I swam like right up next up next to her up in her business the whole way. So sorry about that. Um, I don't know. I didn't want to go behind her cause I thought like, what if she gets dropped? Then I'm going to be super duper mad. Paula: Yeah, one person has to give up. That's the worry, right? I know. I found myself in this situation a lot of times where when you're right beside someone, it's so much slower and you're fighting, but if you surrender, you could both get dropped. So sometimes you just have to take matters into your own hands, but it's really hard to break that elastic and get in front of them. You have to basically go max effort for a hundred meters, which you didn't want to do in an Ironman. Jackie Hering: So. Yeah, no, it was it was actually very strange how easy. So I trained with a guy who is training to swim the English Channel and twice during this race, I was swimming and I'm like, I think I could cross the English Channel like this. I was like in this like all day. Like I felt like I was burning like four calories. But then I would go to the side and I'm like, all right, I got to go around. This is dumb. And then I couldn't. Paula: Okay. You Yeah. Yeah, so the draft was just perfect. Jackie Hering: Like, I was in some like mega draft or something, so whatever to that. Paula: Yeah, well that's good that you have that skill. It's not easy to get in a draft and stay there and feel relaxed. So good job. Four calories. That's funny. Jackie Hering: Yeah, I guess I hit the sweet spot there. I was like, I don't even need a gel for this swim. Wait, we got to get to the last spot. ⁓ In 10th place is Gabby Loomkis. Do you know her? OK, she is a young triathlete. She's 29. She's done a handful of Ironmans and actually had dinner with her down there because she was by herself. She's been spending the last couple of winters. Paula: Okay. Mm-mm, no. Jackie Hering: in New Zealand and like training a lot with Beck Clark. She's a good swimmer. ⁓ She's 29. I think she's somebody that we're going to see if she sticks with it in like five, four or five years that is going to be like winning things because she's just like a general all around her. She ran in college. ⁓ Like her running isn't showing up fast now, but I think it's because of Paula: Mm-hmm. ⁓ really? Okay. Jackie Hering: bike experience. think once she gets more years biking, she's going to be really good. So shout out. She got the last Kona spot. think, yup. There it rolled the 10th, which is, I thought it was going to go farther. If like, I don't know. I don't know where I thought it was going to go, but. Paula: Yeah. ⁓ she did. So it rolled down to 10th. Nice. Yeah. How far back was 10th from the win? Jackie Hering: That's pretty far back. She was a 904 and Solveig was a 811. Paula: Okay. Okay, so almost an hour. Jackie Hering: Yeah, and she lost that time. Not really. She was kind of with us on the swim. Pretty much she's losing it on the bike and the run, as you can guess, because Solveig biked a 420, which is actually insane, and ran a 249, which is normal for her. Paula: Yeah. Yeah, of course. Do you think that the 20 meter draft is affecting these maybe newer athletes who are not as experienced at riding more by themselves? Because that course is a grind. Like you're never really like coasting or climbing or getting out of the saddle. You're just like in aero for most of it, right? Jackie Hering: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think, I think the 20 meter is good for people that are used to kind of, yeah, spending some time by themselves. Like, especially people who come out of the water, like with me, Solvay, Kat, you know, we're used to spending some time by ourselves because we're going to be with a big clump of people. But then it kind of, you usually leave those, a lot of those people, you know, people up by you are used to. Paula: Mm-hmm. then you break away. Yeah, for sure. Jackie Hering: who swim a little quicker, I used to like being in a bike group the whole time. And we're kind of used to being in like no man's land. Paula: Mm-hmm. Yeah, interesting. But you didn't think it changed the way you raised or felt? Like you didn't feel lonely? Okay. Jackie Hering: It doesn't change it. It does. I did feel lonely. No, it was honestly, I spoke out that I thought I was going to hate the 20 meter and I think I actually like it because I do feel like I feel like I'm riding my own ride and I'm not towing towing people around and actually you still get you still feel like you're with somebody. So my my greatest fear of being alone for an Ironman is not coming true. Paula: I know. Okay. Yeah. for sure. Okay, that's good. And you felt like that in Oceanside too. Jackie Hering: Yeah, I can't even hardly remember, but I don't feel like I was too lonely. I was by myself for a little bit in Oceanside, but... I was okay. I survived. Paula: Yeah, I agree with you. think it's good for the stronger cyclist, which you are. So, good. Jackie Hering: Yeah, well, sometimes. Not at the Sire Man in particular, but sometimes I am. Paula: Who cares about watts? It's all about speed. Jackie Hering: Yeah, I didn't go that slow. So, ⁓ do we want to touch on the pro series and what Texas means for the pro series or not yet? Is it too early in the year? Paula: I mean, we've already had three pros, four pro series races. So I don't necessarily think it's too early. ⁓ It's kind of an interesting series because as we saw with Kat, mean, one race where you have luck not on your side and you can kind of be out of the running. Although she does have some buffer if she wants to do another one, but it does reward just like having a bit of luck and obviously being consistent throughout all of the whole. Jackie Hering: Yeah. Not too early, okay? Yeah. Paula: the whole year and some of the top Ironman people like Laura Lucy Taylor don't even really go for it. So in my mind it's kind of an open anyone could win. Jackie Hering: Yeah, think Solveig is the clear favorite now. But she has only done one Iron Man, so she has to knock out two more good ones, I guess, as everybody does. guess Hannah's the only one with two Iron Mans. Paula: Yeah. Yeah. but two. Yeah, that's why it's so hard to predict it, but. Jackie Hering: who's, it's hard now, but I, you know, just talking with Kat and Mark a tiny bit in Texas, it's like, she's not gonna go chase another one as far as I've heard. She's just gonna do Roth and go for Kona, which seems smart to me. Like she's, you can only. Paula: Mm-hmm. So just focusing on Roth. I think so too. Even financially, like knocking those two races out of the park is going to be so much more than the pro series would be anyway, if you're thinking of it from a financial standpoint. But do you think having the pro series that like this where essentially women that are chasing it are forced to race three Ironmans a year, like that never used to be the norm, racing three fulls in one year. ⁓ Jackie Hering: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Paula: Most of my friends like Lindsay and Heather, do maybe one early season and then focus just on Kona. Do you think that's going to affect people's longevity in the sport? And do you think it's increasing injuries and burnout and all of that? I mean, I'm scared of even doing one little and three. So I don't know. It's definitely different. You seem to be able to manage several a year pretty well, but not everyone can. Jackie Hering: Yeah. Yeah, I mean by the third you're like super done and you need a break and yeah, it just happens to be the last one. That's just, I don't know how that's how they have to do it. Like it has to culminate right at the big thing. Paula: And the third is Kona, which matters the most. Yeah. Of course, but do you think that you would, like if you didn't do another Iron Man until Kona, do you think you'd perform much better in Kona? Jackie Hering: For me, no. don't. I mean, last year was a terrible sampling, actually. We can't even... If I do worse, if I do worse, then I'll retire. But if I do, I think I can do better. ⁓ For me, I'm more of like on the consistency train. you know, it's different. Everybody's got kind of different goals going on. I love the pro series. Personally, I like Paula: Okay. ⁓ Well, you had the bad luck and hamburger. Jackie Hering: having the challenge of a lot of races. And I think the ladies that aren't participating, the ones you said, like Laura, Lucy, like the people who are truly ramping everything perfectly to peak on that one day in Kona, they're doing a different thing than I'm doing. ⁓ So I think there's some people that are in that boat. There's some people that are somewhere in between that are trying to like do the whole pro series, but then also like Paula: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jackie Hering: really nail it for Kona. I don't know. I've been, I got ninth at a world champs. Like it doesn't really matter. It does nothing like. Paula: But coming second in the pro series or first is a big deal. Jackie Hering: That's like a huge like monetary benefit. Like sponsors don't care really if you get ninth at the World Champs though. Yeah, they just don't. Paula: Yeah, for sure. In Koda. Yeah, that's true, hey? Really, it just matters if you podium. So if you throw all your eggs in that basket and then you're off the podium, it's maybe doesn't pay off. Jackie Hering: Right. I'd rather do well over the whole pro series for me. yeah, so that's, that's kind of that. I think it is too early personally to start hashing through rankings in the pro series because it changes like so much. The most random people can be winning up until literally Kona, especially in the men's. think you see that it just completely changes. So yeah. Paula: Yeah, that's interesting. Okay. Yeah, and then it all shuffles. Yeah. Jackie Hering: ⁓ Here's what I think I hear a lot is the comparison. like the term depth of field, how do we feel about the depth of field in women's racing? you think that, you know, looking at the time gaps, obviously there's something different in women's racing than men's racing with the depth of field. And do you think it gets like too spread out now with like having the T100, having all sorts of different races that it seems like? even a lot of the good people will still go do these challenge races. Like they're spreading it out more, almost like women don't always want to race each other. Do you see that? Paula: Yeah, maybe. I mean, you did see a lot of European men coming over to the US to race Texas and less so on the women's side. ⁓ It seems like women stay a little bit more regional until Kona or until 70.3 World Championships. But yeah, of course it's obvious there's less depth on the women's side than the men's. There's also just more people on the men's side than the women's side. On every start list, ⁓ there's like twice as many guys. So. I don't know, I was thinking about this earlier today. Like, is it because men are better supported financially and they have the means to travel more to these big races and therefore the top 20 are just so condensed? Or is it truly that the men are just better than the women? I don't know, it's so hard to say why this is happening. Yeah, there's more of them. I think at the tippy top end, Christians, Gustavs, Taylors, they're just as good as each other. Jackie Hering: Well, there's more of them. Yeah. Paula: but the drop off is bigger for the women. But it's kind of a cool opportunity for someone who's watching these Ironman races, like this racing short course right now, we're racing 70.3, to be like, wow, there's lots of opportunity here. Because the racing is exciting and there's really good women there, but they are spread out pretty well ⁓ throughout the whole thing. I don't know. Jackie Hering: Yeah. They're pretty spread out. And Ironman keeps talking about the fastest growing demographic at Ironman races now is the 18 to 24. And there's more money in triathlon. And I think there's opportunity. There's a lot of athletes out there. Like if you're a swimmer, if you're a runner, like it's worth exploring. Like, do you like it? You know, there's a lot of avenues now. You can make money at triathlon. It's amazing. Paula: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, you can make money at it. Jackie Hering: ⁓ I don't know. It's not for everyone. Paula: Yeah. But it's a lot of, it's a risk. Yeah. That's the other thing too, is like, men more willing to take that risk on a little bit when they're in their twenties? Maybe in terms of planning their race schedule and just planning their life around training and racing. ⁓ I think also maybe women might get injured a little bit more easily. Do think that's a factor? Jackie Hering: They're just egotistical and delusional and women are like, I need to be responsible. I don't know. Paula: It seems like a lot of girls are ⁓ signed up for races and then something happens in the weeks leading in and they pull off a start list where that it feels like that doesn't happen quite as much in the men's racing. ⁓ Yeah, I don't know. I personally, I have to be careful because I'm pretty injury prone and yeah, if I go and travel too much and get too tired and do too much running, I can fall apart. Jackie Hering: potentially. Yeah, it could be. Yeah, that does seem to be pretty common. And I think that's why not as many are doing the whole entire pro series is because they want to make sure they're healthy at the right time of the year. And if you go crank out extra Ironmans, like who knows what your body's going to do. So. Paula: Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah, for sure, but it's not a reflection of like women not training as hard or caring as much or any of that. It's just the density of people. Jackie Hering: Right, we just need to locate more of them. Maybe this podcast can help. We'll drag some people up. Paula: Yeah. Anyone who's been a runner who's dabbled in swimming when they were younger, this is the sport for you. Or a rower who has like this huge VOT max base. I don't know. Jackie Hering: Yes. Yes. I think it's easier to come in if you already know how to swim. If you're a swimmer, but not all swimmers can run. I've seen a lot of swimmers just like cannot run at all. So it's a special breed of swimmer. We got to find those ones. Paula: For sure. Yeah. Yeah, is really, think also what we're seeing is more men coming over from short course racing and less on the women's side. ⁓ People are training so much now that the jump up to training for a full is not actually that much. Like the best short course men in the world are training 25, 30 hours a week and running plenty enough to run an Ironman. So maybe you're just tweaking some of like the intensity and the nutrition, but. Jackie Hering: Yeah. Paula: it's much easier now than it used to be to make that jump up to, especially to half distance, but even to the full. Like the top five men in Texas all came from a short course background not that long ago. So maybe it's just a matter of getting some of these women that are really good at short course to make that jump earlier in their career versus like trying to go to the Olympics, trying to go to the Olympics, waiting four more years. And then suddenly they're kind of too old to be really fast. So ⁓ that's another factor. Jackie Hering: Move up. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good, that's a good shout for sure. think, yeah, I mean, it, seems like a big jump cause you got to switch your bike. You got to ride on the bike with the weird bars. I don't know. You did it. When did you, was it weird for you going from like racing in a pack short course to getting a triathlon, like a TT bike? Paula: A little bit, yeah, but I was kind of at the phase of my short course career. I'd been doing it for 15, 16 years and missed an Olympic team. So I was ready for something fresh and new and exciting. And the bike was kind of my strength. So it was fun, but it's for sure a learning curve. I still don't feel completely competent on a TT bike versus my road bike. So it's a bit scarier in the wind and it's, you you don't have brakes in front of you when you're going fast head first. So there's a learning curve, but... Jackie Hering: Yeah. Paula: I don't know, there's a lot of resources now for people to get bikes fit really well to them and yeah, ride the trainer lots in your bars. Jackie Hering: Yeah, for sure. I do that a lot. let's see, I kind of want to like change gears a little bit. A couple things that I want to touch on and then we'll, we'll wrap it up. We're going to get, maybe we'll get close to an hour for episode one. We're doing good. Maybe people are still listening. Paula: video. Okay. Pretty good. Yeah, hopefully we're interesting. I'll get my mom to listen. Jackie Hering: ⁓ yeah, the moms will definitely listen and maybe Eric will, maybe Mark. Paula: I think people are excited about this actually. It's like, Jackie, when you're doing a lot of cool stuff on YouTube and on Reels and stuff of like the motivational clips, and I get into them. So I'm like, this is perfect. Jackie Hering: ⁓ good. I think people do like that. Yeah. I mean, it's just whatever like pops in my head. I just recorded on my phone, but I feel like I'm just like spreading, spreading the word here. I want to talk to you about just how you plan your season, how you navigate, ⁓ when things don't go as planned and then how you Paula: Yeah, totally. Jackie Hering: Like what you're learning about changing things up based on how you feel or how you navigate like expectations you feel or things like that just throughout the season. Do you have any thoughts on that? Paula: Yeah, for sure. think, especially if you've come off a season of success, it kind of feels like you're, you have to live up to that. This isn't the next year around. So last year I won Oceanside and St. George and I felt like I needed to come back and win Oceanside and, you know, start the year off with a bang like that, because it feels so good to have that momentum and you have these great memories from these races. So for example, this year, Oceanside rolled around and I was not really fit or healthy enough to have that type of a performance. But deep inside, I remembered what it felt like to win that race. So I think I've learned through my career, although it's not easy just to be a little bit more flexible. And for sure in Oceanside, I probably shouldn't have even gone to that race. But it's hard to leave things off the table when it's part of your yearly routine. Like I've done Oceanside seven times and it feels like I always need to start my year there. So after Oceanside, I took a step back and just kind of got healthy and got my bearings and thought there's really no rush. Like my biggest races are later in the season and having some mental flexibility to be able to adapt to that. But it's not easy cause I'm like watching you get ready for Texas and watching people, you know, they've already done four races this year and I haven't even finished one. So social media, I don't know. Jackie Hering: So you're fresh as a daisy. Paula: starting to feel a little fitter and better and race ready, but it's taken me a lot longer this year than in the past. So ⁓ I find it's, if I get really overwhelmed with it, I try to not go on social media as much, because that is the biggest ⁓ thing that makes me feel panicky if I'm like seeing what other people are doing. And I want to see what my friends are doing and cheer for them, but it does get overwhelming when it's like, wow, I'm. Jackie Hering: Yeah. Paula: doing as much as this person or I haven't been to a race like this person has. So ⁓ yeah, just trying to stay within myself and have trust that I still can race well and I just need to be consistent. That's like my only priority right now is not be injured and not get sick. So having some flexibility throughout the year. You can change things a week before the race and it's okay. Jackie Hering: Yeah, for sure. It's totally okay. Look at Lisa Pertier in Texas. Did you see that whole story unfold? She was at the pro briefing. Like, she seemed completely fine. She's laughing. But if she, ⁓ yeah, or she felt sick and was like in denial and then somebody, I mean, it's hard to... Paula: Yeah. Sick. Yeah. And she woke up sick. Yeah. Jackie Hering: I feel like you can kind of fake it sometimes for a half, right? Like maybe, but for a full, like you really have to be like, I'm either sick or not sick and you know, whatever. It's not gonna be a really fun day. Yeah. Paula: Yeah, yeah. It's not gonna go well if you're going in under the weather. Yeah. But, and you also have to be smart about saving your matches for the next thing and not pushing your body through a nine hour race, right? Or eight hour race. Yeah. Jackie Hering: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's a good thing to keep in mind about comparison, because that is a thing that I think we all fall into, which is like, you you want to see what other people are doing, but at the same time, it does sometimes do something to your brain. Like, I know I don't train as many hours as most people, and most times I don't have a problem with that. I know that that's what I do, but... Paula: Mm-hmm. Jackie Hering: My brain tries to do this psycho thing when I'm getting close to a race that I want to all of a sudden see how much everyone else is training. And then it's like your brain trying to convince you that you're not okay. You didn't do it right. You're not ready. And I'm like, why do we got to do this? Like right before the race, I'm fine. Like, yeah, why? Paula: Yes. Yes. Yeah. How many hours a week has this person been riding? Yeah. I get into that too. I mean, we also share a lot of things on Strava. A lot of athletes don't. They have no clue what they've been doing, which maybe is the approach I should take, but I kind of like Strava in some ways. It can be motivating in the right ways. Jackie Hering: It just doesn't. I love Strava. Yeah, I'm obsessed with Strava, but yeah, if anybody goes and looks at all, you can see everything on Strava, except for my terrible Iron Man Texas power, which I hid, because I'm too embarrassed. ⁓ You could see everything. Yes. Paula: Is it under 200? Okay, okay. It's okay. Jackie Hering: So sad. But I got the job done. Okay, we did the main objectives. Paula: It's actually crazy how fast you can still go with relatively low power. Jackie Hering: That's what I was thinking during the race. I was thinking, I have the most amazing setup that I can go at this speed at such terrible power. This is actually the best thing ever. I've got, it's crazy. I think it's the wheels, that I got the thing, the aerogains on the back, everything. I'm like, the whole time I'm like, I am like a spaceship. Paula: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy how fast stuff's gotten. the TT bars. Yes, exactly. I got new TT bars that I took outside for the first time yesterday. And Eric, my husband's coming back from hip surgery, riding on a road bike upright, not pushing a lot of power. And I was riding beside him at 120 watts. And I was like, Eric, many watts are you doing right now? And he's like 210, 215, 205. It was just crazy, the difference. So to be optimized, like I feel like you are and I am and got the right helmet. It's you can still go really fast. Jackie Hering: Yeah. What? Paula: All the gear matters. Jackie Hering: You can still go fast and guess what? I've never been to a wind tunnel in my entire life and I don't plan on going to one. I just look at what other people are doing and I take my bike out on the road and I hit go on that timer and I time myself like real old school stuff. And you can make some adjustments and see what works. Paula: Yes. ⁓ huh. Yeah, I mean, it's, I agree. It does work to look at other people. Like everyone's wearing the Rudy helmet. It must be fast. Get the Rudy helmet. Like that's an easy way to do it. Jackie Hering: Yeah. That's easy. Yeah, shout out Rudy's been a long time sponsor. Paula: Yeah, I tested fastest for me in the wind tunnel. Yeah. Jackie Hering: That is awesome. I'm glad to hear that. See you people like you can go do the wind tunnel work and then just tell the rest of us about it. Yeah, yeah, that's it. well, I think we could begin to wrap this up. Do you want to tell me anything about your Paula: Yeah, exactly. And then you can feel good about wearing it. Jackie Hering: Iron Man prep or anything about your races to come in the near future or not yet Paula: You know, I can talk about it. I finally feel healthy enough to be committed to some, whatever schedule. I signed up for Lake Placid yesterday. So I'm going to do that. Even though you and Holly raced last year and right after the race, you both texted me like, that was horrible. Never again. Like, shit in my mind, Placid was like the perfect race for me because it's a bit hilly. It's not hot. It seems like it might suit me. So I'm excited to try to get ready for that race as best as I can. Jackie Hering: Bye! Paula: And ⁓ yeah, kind of venture into the unknown a little bit. I've been, like I said, doing it for 20 years, but to be training for something completely new is kind of cool. And you can't do that in a lot of sports, like jump into something completely different that's also the same when you're 36. So it'll be fun. Jackie Hering: Yeah. think you're gonna like it and I think your intuition is right. I Placid is a very good course for you. I think you'll do well. It's a nice, it's like a chill freshwater swim. You're gonna love the bike ride. It's just a matter of like not getting too lonely on the run so you'll have to just do some mental Paula: Mm-hmm. and a hilly run. Are you kind of like out of the crowd? Is that what you mean? Like there's not a lot of spectators because you're out there. All right. That's OK. Jackie Hering: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So if you're used to running, looks like you're running on some like boring ass long roads anyways. So it's kind of like that. Cause it is pretty. Paula: Yeah, this I've had a hip injury last year and what feels best for it right now is running uphill. So pretty much all my hard running is like start in town and run up and then Eric picks me up at the top. So I get none of the like free speed coming back, but it's been, I feel like my fitness has gotten better just from doing that. Like it puts my body position in a better spot. My cadence is higher, whatever. I'm, trying some new things, which is kind of interesting. Jackie Hering: Yeah. That's fun. Paula: Don't be afraid to try new things. Jackie Hering: Yes, that's a great take home. Don't be afraid to try new things, even if it's running up long hills and Ironmans. Paula: Getting picked up at the top. ⁓ What's your schedule? TBD? Jackie Hering: Yeah, that sounds good. ⁓ well, I went on a bike ride today, my first, what I would say like actual bike ride since Texas. And even though I thought initially that my body was absolute garbage and I, it was going to be a long recovery on this ride today. And even yesterday I went for a little jog, which is way earlier than I normally jog. I actually think my body's like snapping back really well. So I may come to Chattanooga. Paula: Okay. Mm-hmm. ⁓ good. Okay, perfect. Jackie Hering: There's a chance. But I changed my schedule for the pro series because Solveig is too fast for me and I cannot race her again. I... She's going to Hamburg so I'm not going there anymore. So I'm gonna do the US 70.3 circuit. So it'll be Chattanooga, Happy Valley, Boise. And then I'm gonna go do Kalmar and see if I can... Paula: You Okay. Okay. Cal Mar. Jackie Hering: Get a cherry picker out there. Paula: It's a good one to do. Most people will be gearing up for Worlds at that point. Looks like a great course. Jackie Hering: So it looks so beautiful. You know, it's the one I've done almost every race on the schedule, I feel like at this point, every pro series race. And so it's the one when they announced it where I was like, OK, like, I'm really interested to go there. It looks so beautiful. And it's kind of a course that suits me. really like freshwater. I like, you know, kind of just like rolling. And it's a multi-loop run. Paula: Mm-hmm. Jackie Hering: I like a three or four loop run, because then you get to see a lot of people and it breaks it up really naturally. Paula: Yeah. Yeah. Do you think you race better when you go back to a race you've done before and you're familiar with the course? Or do you race better when it's like fresh and new and exciting? Jackie Hering: That's a good question. ⁓ I don't know, sometimes. Yeah. Yeah, there is something nice about it being like not new in your brain. Like you already know what you're getting into, but there's also something fun about like the discovery of it. I like to have ⁓ a little sense of adventure in there. So yeah, we'll see. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's how Texas felt. Because I mean, granted, it's a highway. There's nothing really exciting, but. Paula: I tend to race better if I know it. I like curses I know. Mm-hmm. Yep, seeing the course for the first time on the race course. but you can't write it beforehand. Jackie Hering: At least the bike course was like, what are we doing? Okay. Riding back and forth. Sounds good. Okay. Well, yes. Paula: Well, maybe we'll see you in Chattanooga and anytime you need a filler for the pod, I'm happy to come on and chat. But I think that it's a good idea to get lots of girls on. Jackie Hering: Sounds good. I'm gonna, yeah, I'm gonna try to bring reoccurring, well, reoccurring or not, eventually they'll be reoccurring because there's only so many women pros. ⁓ But we'll bring different pros on. I'm gonna close out every episode the same. And it's gonna be titled What I'm Loving Right Now. And this can be triathlon related, it can be training, or it can just be in your general life, what you're loving right now. Paula: Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay. Jackie Hering: I should have brainstormed and got mine ready. I warned you about this question. ⁓ But I'll think of something. You're ready. Okay, go. You have two. Okay. Paula: I'm ready. I have two though. One triathlon related is uphill running. I am truly loving uphill running. Because you don't worry about your pace. You just go hard and it feels good. Two is this rescue dog. Eric and I have a foster pointer. 11 year old female, super sweet, trying to decide if we're going to keep her. But she's brought a little bit of happiness into our day to day. Jackie Hering: She looks just like Flynn. Paula: Yeah, half the size of Flynn, but same breed. Jackie Hering: yeah, very cute. Yeah, that's fun. Two dogs has got to be a handful though. Paula: We're also looking for dog sitters if anyone's interested. Reach out. I'm serious. Jackie Hering: All right, dog sitter advertisement. If you're in Bend, Oregon, you can. Paula: Or if you're willing to travel to bed, we'll pay for your flights. Jackie Hering: What? I'm gonna come dog sit. I'm sending my... Wow. Paula: Okay. I mean, paying for someone's flights to come watch the dogs for a week is cheaper than a rover. Jackie Hering: You're kidding. Wow. Dogs are expensive. Yeah. Our neighbor always used to just watch our dog. ⁓ I'll tell you what I'm loving right now. Raw Nutrition came out with creatine gummies. Do you take creatine? Paula: I think, yeah, depending on where they come from. Yeah, they are worth it. ⁓ I don't because sometimes it's a pain in the ass to get it dissolved in the thing so that the gummies are intriguing. Jackie Hering: These gummies are really good because they just taste like candy. But you can only eat four. So it's candy. You eat four. Yes, four gummies is five milligrams creatine, which is how much I take every day. Every day. Doesn't matter whenever you feel like it. Paula: ⁓ four is one serving. That's pretty good. Okay, every day. What time of day? So it doesn't matter when you tie, but pre, post workout, whatever. Jackie Hering: Not to my knowledge. It's usually I mean, at some point, it's like in between workouts for me. I'd say most generally I swim first thing and then I have this like yogurt bowl that I either will eat the gummies with or I put the powder creatine in the yogurt. And then I view. Paula: Okay, I'm gonna order some. Okay. Yeah, powder stuff is like my, is such a deterrent for me because you got to have the right medium to consume it, right? So the gummies are good idea. Jackie Hering: Yeah, a lot of people aren't a big fan. I don't mind the powder, but I just got, they just released these gummies and now I'm trying to not eat more than four per day because they're really yummy. It doesn't do that. That's the misconception. It doesn't, but it has, I'm somebody who like doesn't get muscles and it has a tiny bit made me feel like I have a little bit of muscles. So yeah, it's good. Paula: You're gonna like bulk up to the Hulk. I don't know if that's what creatine does, but ⁓ it doesn't. ⁓ ⁓ that's good. Jackie Hering: My arms still kind of look like a flabby old lady, but that's just kind of what I am. So, hey. Paula: Okay. Bye! No, you're not. Okay, I'm get some gummies. Jackie Hering: Thanks, Mom. Just kidding. ⁓ Okay. On that note, we'll wrap it up. Thanks, everybody, for listening to the first episode of the Women's Race. We shall be back. I'm not totally sure who the next guest is, but it'll be somebody really good at triathlon. And you can come listen to us. Thanks again. Bye bye. ⁓ yeah. Paula: Bye guys.