Michelle DeLorenzo: So when did you realize you were attracted to the sensual, strange and darker side of things? DL: I feel like it was when I came out of the womb. I really believe that that's when it all started. I've never felt, I've never been a person who was rooting for the hero. I think as a child, I was I recognized early that I had such an innate curiosity for the villains and wanting to kind of understand them more. and there was some type of interesting sympathy that I had for the characters that I think were more protagonists. and that's really led me on to this crazy journey that I've been on my entire life, which has really been this exploration of immersion into atmosphere. and I think that my connection to the darker aspects of the world, they really for me have a more sticky connection to an emotional aspect, an emotional aspect of longing, of loss, of of Recognizing to live life to its fullest. I think that these kind of darker aspects are constant reminders to me that to embrace every day to its fullest and to kind of to try to celebrate that and to try to share that with other people. So I think that that's been really my connection to the darker aspects of life. Michelle DeLorenzo: Thank you so much for joining us. for those who don't know, we are joined today by Douglas, who is the owner and perfumer behind Heretic Fragrances. And we are so, so excited to have you here. We are both huge fans and feel like you guys have definitely been having quite, quite a moment the past two years. So we're we're definitely really excited to dive in. But for those who may not know a little bit about the origins, can you tell them how did heretic come into being? DL: well, first, thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate it. And I love your content and it's just a it's a real it's a real privilege to be a part of this. Heretic came to being, I think, as all good things do out of frustration. and it was really that I felt that I think that my career in beauty has been one where it's been understanding where I see space. And I really felt like my journey into beauty started when I was 19, and I was working underneath a creative director at a big hair care company, and I kind of got my chops being basically like an executive assistant and then kind of worked my way up into the ranks of being a creative director. always loving beauty, loving fragrance, really not feeling like I had a voice in it. And then finally after 10 years of corporate the corporate beauty industry, I was either going to commit suicide or I was going to start my own collection. And I chose to start my own collection. And I started a collection in 2003, which was called Di Elinco. And that collection was kind of when I first decided to take a step out into the broad the the big world of beauty and make a claim in this world of kind of what I call dark beauty. no one no one was doing anything like that. And I started my collection off with two fragrances based on poison plants. it was the thorn apple and the angels trumpet. And they were candles and it just took off and it just immediately took root. And then shortly thereafter, it was just so interesting because that space at that time in 2003 was there was really the landscape was was wide open. And I mean, I think the greatest moment of my life was I had kind of built that company up and started venturing out into some of these other ideas of like thinking about candles in new ways. And I created this sculptural bust out of wax that weeped wax and brought it back with heretic, but that's where it founded was in was back in 2006. And I had a a moment where Alexander McQueen's people reached out to me and said he's doing an exhibit at the Victoria and Albert Museum and he wants to bring your candle in as part of that exhibit. And I I thought I had died. I really did. I just didn't know what to do Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. DL: with myself because I really want you to understand that for me, I grew up in Southern California in the valley to a very lower income family. And This world is one where it's very, you know, the world of luxury, like high luxury. And I never grew up with any money underneath me. And this was really about following my passion and wanting to share that passion with other people and like really wanting to change what I think is status quo. And so when I left my company, DL and Co., it was one of the most painful things that I've ever done. And it was because I took a terrible partnership. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. DL: and I think for other founders or other people who are venturing into the world of beauty, it's something that I I want to be able to speak to because I think it gets glossed over a lot of times about like when you want to start a line, like what does it take? And you know, a lot of people will say like find an investor. It it It comes with strings and I made a very bad choice and it ended up causing me to be extricated from my own company. and I I I thought I was I really I didn't know if I was gonna recover from it. it was so damaging on so many levels. And so when I stepped away from it, I said, I think I'm done with doing fragrance. And I think that that chapter is closed. I took a break for a long time, moved to New York, really started to flex my my more visual side of myself, working doing these big installations, really following my gothic passion. I got to work with Guillermo del Toro, got to work with like some really incredible names within the kind of fantasy, sci-fi, and horror space. and also bridging that with high luxury like Van Cleef and Arpels and Berg Dorf Goodman, which was like a dream for me. And then I started getting phone calls saying, Are you ever gonna do another line? And I had been thinking so much about it and trying to think if I were to do it again, how would I do it differently? Definitely told myself I would never take another business partner. and I out of randomly, like in 2010, I got this phone call from this woman who said, We're doing this beauty panel, and we'd love to have you speak about home fragrance. And because of my first collection, I said, sure. So I went and I spoke at this conference and it was incredible. There was about 300 people in New York. And I I they were asking me about what I felt the future of fragrance was. And I said, you know, we've got these incredible brands that are really like taking niche and making it. really something meaty and it meaningful. And I was referencing Bayredo and Lalabo, which had been doing just incredible work. and I think really showing the world that niche fragrance was the next chapter. And I said, you know, I think that the future for me in the beauty space, especially fragrance, is going to be naturals and natural perfumery. And I said natural perfume Perfumery for me is something that I it's how I was trained and I really believe in it. And there's something about it that feels so deeply authentic. And I think that this new customer, that as we start to grow in technology and become more interconnected, there's gonna be more of a need for individuation. And I said, and and auth authenticity. And I said, and I think that naturals just have this way of resonating with people that's just very they're they're unvarnished. And as I was on my soapbox about this, this very astute perfumer from a very big perfume house, very French. She said in her French accent, natural perfumery is nothing more than the work of housewives and heretics. And Josh: Thanks DL: I said, I was like, Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. DL: okay, well, you know, that's your opinion. And we kind of got into this interesting debate about natural versus synthetic and like all this, that, and the other. And she was like, you know, naturals, they are too expensive and they are unreliable and they are hard to source and You know, they they may they do not appeal to a broad audience and blah, blah, blah. And I thought and I was like in my mind, I'm like, Yeah, bitch, that's every reason why I want to work with them. Like, you know, it was like, what the fuck? and I kind of shut it down and and I left kind of feeling a little a little disenfranchised. And I was on the taxi ride home and I just had this moment where it was like, whatever powers that be, the lightning struck. And I called my lawyer and I said, Can you see if we can trademark the name heretic? And she goes, For what? And I said, in fragrance. And she goes, Why? And I said, Well, I think that this is my new line. I said, I think this is, I think I found it. And she goes, Douglas, that name is really niche. She was like, Do you really want to put the money into buying this trademark? And I said, I do. And she goes, Okay, I'll get back to you. She comes back the next day and she goes, Well, it's wide open. I said, Josh: You DL: Let's buy it. And so that's how it started. And I literally said that day, I was like, I'm I'm back in. I was like, I felt like it was that moment that I needed the like push to say, let's do this. And I love being in the face of adversity. I don't love it, but I do thrive in the face of adversity. And so I felt like I, you know, from 2010, I launched Heretic in 2015. It took me about five years to really figure out like, okay, how am I going to do this? And the interesting part about it was, I mean, it's like I had all these connections in the beauty and fragrance industry. So I knew how to build a collection. And so I was going about the traditional route, you know, I developed the concepts and sent them to perfumers and whatnot. But I, you know, the caveat when I was working with fragrance houses was it has to be a hundred percent natural. And I'll have you know that every single house just said no. Like they literally were like, Yeah, I love it, but no. And I would say, like, Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. DL: why? Why don't you want to do this? And they were like, well, one, you're really small, you know, you're just starting off. And two, we really don't believe that there's a big market for this. And three, that most of our perfumers really don't know how to do like full natural compositions. So no. And After I think it was like the second year, I finally just said, you know what? Enough's enough. Like I if I'm gonna call this brand heretic, I had better like march in those footsteps. And so the word heretic means to have an opinion that's different than others. And I was like, okay, it's time to put my, you know, time to put my money where my mouth is. So I was like, I just started, I built the formulas. And I loved them and I I just I was like, okay, so I just started buying the raw materials and I was shipping them to my five hundred square foot apartment in New York and bought the alcohol, bought a bunch of tamale pots, and I just started blending the shit in my apartment. And and I was like, I I can do this. Do you know what I mean? It's like I just needed to believe in it. And Barney's brought me in. They brought me in the first year as an exclusive and and off we were. And I can tell you it was a very bumpy road, like a very, very bumpy road. they put me right next to Bayredo and La Labo. And I Michelle DeLorenzo: Oof. DL: can tell you, I probably I don't know that I could have paid people to buy the bottles of perfume. People just Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. DL: did not understand what I was doing. they didn't Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. DL: understand the old active profiles. And we had so many, I'd have so many people that would come up and there'd be they would say to me, like, hey, What do you have that smells like Santal 33? And I was like, nothing. And it Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Josh: Alright. DL: was really like I realized that I had put myself so far to the left that there was it was really hard. And then then people would be like, Well, what do you have that has sandalwood in it? And because sandalwood was such a buzz note at that time. And I would say, like, I have this amazing fragrance called holy water, and it has this beautiful mysore sandalwood in it. And they would smell it and they'd say, like, Ye yeah, that doesn't smell like sandalwood. And I was like, this has like the highest concentration of one of the rarest sandalwoods that I can get my hands on. And they were like, Yeah, it doesn't smell like sandalwood. And then I started to realize very quickly, that's right, because everyone associates sandalwood with with musk, with synthetic musk. And Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. DL: so it was one of those like big learning moments with the first couple years of the brand where I needed to do a lot of like rearranging and like cleaning house basically to kind of figure out like how do I take this this really oddball brand that I've built and how do I make it where it can be more approachable to a broader audience. And it I needed to kind of because I started off with like fragrances like poltergeist and blood cedar and holy water and amulet and these like very very dark this very like brutalist gothic world that I had built. And and so I was like, okay, I think I just need to like I need to figure out how to do like heretic light for a minute. Do you know what I mean? So that I can try to get Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. DL: a bigger audience to to digest this. And so it went through a bit of a metamorphosis until I could get some some traction underneath me. And then it was really nice to kind of go back like two years ago is where I really returned, you know, to where I wanted to be. Michelle DeLorenzo: first of all I love that a lot of this was born out of spite, pure spite. DL: Really? Josh: It works. Michelle DeLorenzo: Love it. but I think I one of the things and when we had met in New York last fall that I was really taken with was your approach to naturals because you know, I think a lot of brands push natural as, you know, the the healthy option of fragrance and sort of, you know gloss over, you know, how dangerous naturals actually can be. And but I think your approach was I was really taken with it because it was very much about the appreciation of what these things actually smell like. And I I would love if you can tell us a little bit more about, you know, why naturals mean so much to you and why you choose to showcase them in the way that you do. DL: I pick naturals very much like I pick friends. I that sounds odd to say it, but I I enjoy a character. Do you know what I mean? I really enjoy a character. And I I think when you find people that are true characters, there's a they're very unvarnished. Do you know what I mean? They they they tend to be a bit unapologetic. about who they are and what makes them so special. And you know, that's the thing for me that naturals do is that they are just they're unvarnished and they're unapologetic and they don't appeal to everyone. And I love that. You know, I just love the fact that they're quirky and spiky and they sometimes have a real attitude problem. And You know, they they for some people they're very offensive, and for other people, they just they they're almost like a religious experience. and so that's for the reason that I really like working with them. And I like speaking. I was trained underneath Mandy Aftel, and Mandy Aftel is, you know, she's one of the most, I think, one of the most talented noses and genius brains in the perfume industry. And she approaches Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. DL: fragrance and the way that she explains it is is I think a lot from her psychological background and her being a therapist. But I think psychology and fragrance go so much hand in hand. And to truly understand these natural materials, I think you almost have to have a degree in psychology because you need to understand how they unlock facets of the brain, the imagination. Synthetics, there's nothing wrong with them. And I I have to really point that out is that I'm not here to say and I work with synthetics now in a lot of our fragrances. And I would I'm very happy to explain why. But my start Is in this business, I wanted to see, I wanted to challenge myself. And I feel like, you know, it's like one of it's like saying, hey Michelle, I'm gonna give you an unlimited budget to build a house. What are you gonna do? When you have an unlimited budget, It can become almost overwhelming. Do you know what I mean? The choices are endless. So, you know, where do you go? And and also there's something about redacting the palette down where you say, like, I'm gonna work in this very small space and I'm gonna try to make something magnificent with it, that really changes the way that you approach building scent profile. and I think when you take and you take the world of art and perfumery. And you take them side by side because perfumery is art. you know, we're just not working with paint or we're not working with, you know, solid materials. and you even say, like, in a world of artwork, I'm gonna only work with these hues to create this effect, you get this really interesting new newness that starts to take shape. And so I could take a profile of something that is like. really popular like Santal 33. And I could say, I'm gonna try to build a natural version of it. And the end result is insane because like what happens is like these materials, like you don't have those luscious, cozy musks to wrap yourself in. You all of a sudden have to work in these spaces where if you think of the world of of fragrance like a puzzle, and you're building or or a picture. And you're trying to build a picture out of naturals, it's like working with broken mosaic tiles. They're like weird and jagged, and you just have to keep trying to fit them together. And no matter what you do, there's gonna be gaps in between. So the picture is going to be slightly fragmented. Whereas if I was doing this with synthetics, it's like it's literally like working with oil paint. You have this incredible array of color. you have this endless ability to keep them moving and to blur them into each other. And naturals are the opposite. you know, they they you don't get that that flexibility. So very long winded answer to your question about naturals, but my reason is their authenticity and the fact that they have bumps, bruises, quirks, and these qualities that I think synthetics just you you Really, it's hard to push synthetics into that space. Josh: Yeah, I mean, and you'd mentioned you have started pulling some synthetics into the compositions. Is that from like a sustainability factor or just a factor of being able to stretch the longevity and things like that? DL: So I would love to say that it was from a stance of of like sustainability. I I it's not. I think that there's a lot of arguments around naturals and sustainability, certainly. the people that I have chosen to work with have really strong sustainability aspects that we we work with for their harvest and whatnot. That's a whole other podcast, but The main reason is that I'm an artist. I'm an artist through and through. I'm always going to be an artist. And so for me to say I'm going to paint pictures with blue paint for the rest of my life is a lie. And so it's exciting to be able to start venturing into working with some synthetics, but also to vet them through a very rigid lens of like what is safe and really unpacking those synthetics. To make sure that whatever we're working with is is truly vetted as safe as you can get and up to IFRA standards and disclosing that to customers. and then I think moreover, it's the old factive effect. Do you mean it's like I want to immerse people into these spaces? I want to, and there's only there was like I felt like I was starting to reach a point where it was like I couldn't go any farther with naturals, where it's like I started to want to create these nuances of like. dust and ozone, and it's impossible. Like it is impossible to do that with naturals. and with synthetics, if you start to work with them in tandem with naturals, especially with high concentrations of naturals, where you kind of reverse the theory of most perfume, because most perfume is usually 90% synthetics and then 10% naturals. And that's even very high for a lot of brands. But if you say, I'm gonna work with 90% naturals and then 10% synthetics, you still allow these naturals to come through in a way that are loud and clear, quirky and odd. and yet you give them more commercial aspect where more people feel like they can embrace them. They feel a little bit more wearable. And as a punk rocker, as a goth rocker, through and through, it was hard for me to say, I am willing to do that. Because, you know, for me everything is either black, white, or red. That's it. There's no other colors. and it was hard for me to say, like, yeah, let's let's do something that's ballet pink and that people can can still love and that still feels like it fits the heretic DNA. But this has been kind of a good compromise. Josh: I really appreciate that. also think Heretic as a brand resonates for those of us who are also kind of strange and unusual from the get-go. know, growing up as like the weird dark kid, I actually became aware of Heretic before I got into fragrance, when Scandalwood launched as a collaboration with Deedavon Tease. And a big fan of burlesque and again, kind of the darker, moodier side of art forms, I was like, This is really cool. I had no concept of what my life would be like in the fragrance space at that time. But it was really interesting to see a brand that had the kind of world building that resonated with me. And I think that's something that hearing you talk about everything from the lens of an artist, it now makes sense. I see the worlds that you create and why they resonate so authentically. Can you talk a little bit to kind of like... The fragrances have this environmental, cinematic composition to them. Where does that stem from? DL: it really comes from me wanting to transport people to places. And I think if I was to dig down even deeper, and if I'm gonna get really vulnerable with you guys, which I love to do, I think it comes from a lot of trauma in childhood. and I came from, you know, two parents who were artists and also divorced very early. And there was a I w they divorced probably when I was around eight, so I was old enough to really understand what was going on. And all I wanted more than anything was for my parents to get back together and to have that kind of happy environment. And so there was so much trauma that was going on but in that divorce and in the separation and and all of that that as a as an as an only child and as a redhead, I I can tell you like I didn't fit in at school. I was this weird, like nerdy dark kid. Do you know what I mean? It was like I I was faced with so many obstacles that up that I was up against. And all I wanted was escapism. And so I really started to find, I started to find, you know, horror, fantasy, like that entire space at a very young age because it really helped me escape where the trauma that I was existing in and the turmoil. And I started to discover fragrance short, like probably around when I was like 10, I started to just there was on my way to school, there was this weird shop called Herb Products Incorporated. And they I think that they mainly serviced the kind of aromatherapy, like Ayurvedic industry and like Chinese herbal. And it was nothing fancy. It wasn't like an occult shop at all. It was just like innocuous shop called Herb Products Incorporated. And they had this like giant Bible of a catalog that cost eight dollars. And I remember saving my allowance to buy that stupid catalog. But when I would pass by it, it smelled so crazy. And so I started saving money to go in and to like. get whatever I could. And I was just buying like whatever sounded weird. And I just was like so taken back by how these materials they allowed me to kind of escape the turmoil that I was in and like take myself to these other places. So that really has followed me in my journey and wanting to be able to kind of allow people to escape reality, escape life. And to to take them to these other places. and I l I love that fragrance can do that. Do you know what I mean? It's like I love that fragrance can allow you to to kind of escape your reality or to become something or to become closer to your to who you are. You know, it does all of these incredible things. And so this the reason that I build fragrance in the way that I do is I never really think about like a note, or I never really think about like in it's I am not trying to create I really want to go for atmosphere with fragrances. That's probably my key, is really trying to unpack like how can I get these nuances of allowing people to go to these places that are that are exotic. And I'm not talking about like Thailand. I I wanna take people to like a crypt. I wanna take people, you know, into an abandoned cemetery in New Orleans in in winter. You know, like I wanna take people to, you know, my family's Scottish and I got a great opportunity of spending a lot of time in Scotland and I have all these scent memories that are tied to the, you know, the various landscapes of Scotland. And that to me is like the magic of of perfumery. Michelle DeLorenzo: I think what's most impressive for me in your ability to to build these worlds. And I think it was very evident, especially with rhubarb thief and the entire campaign built around that. And you know, we're so being overtaken by AI everywhere. But, you know, it in the fragrance industry, it feels like it's taking hold of everybody. And to see that entire campaign felt like a breath of fresh air, like this is This is what a luxury fragrance does, right? You know, we're but meanwhile, these big lug luxury brands charging $300, $400 for a bottle are using AI for their campaigns. And here's, you know, here's heretic putting in the art. So I I mean, that's one of the reasons why I am such a diehard fan of the brand as well, because you're it's it's so much art everywhere. But you know, how do you How do you world build with your perfumes and with your campaigns? DL: Well, it always you know, a lot of times newness in heretics starts with an ingredient. and that's definitely where rhubarb thief started. So I I am really fortunate that my entire career has really been spent in working with manufacturers. and we I've got these great relationships. So usually like a couple times a year I will get little packages from various manufacturers or or people that do distillation. And I received a package, this was probably four years ago, from this wonderful company called Bioland. And they're a French distillery and they do some of the most beautiful extracts. and they really do a lot of unconventional materials in the natural space. and they've got a lot of artisan artisan distillers that are looking at materials from unusual ways. And that's That's pretty abstract in the fragrance industry. And they did a series of materials that were very humble. and they sent me some of them and one of them was a carrot. And this stupid carrot extract just knocked my socks off. I just was like, I I mean I was blown away because when people talk about carrot, they're usually talking about carrot seed. And carrot Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. DL: seed is also wonderful, like just absolutely wonderful. But carrot n you never really see it. And I started thinking about it would be so fun to build a collection around these really humble ingredients. and what would that look like? And how could I do something that felt elevated and very chic and sophisticated, but yet be made with materials that were simple and humble and and charming. And so that's really the foundation of a lot of the world building that starts, is like. where an ingredient will lead me to a thought process. and, you know, it it ended up kind of taking me back to childhood where being babysat by my Scottish granny and she would keep me entertained by she would grow rhubarb in her garden and it was nothing fancy. It was just this humble little, you know, garden. And but she would tell me these hysterical stories about the brownies that lived inside the the rhubarb. And And you know, it's really where rhubarb thief started was this kind of connection to these humble materials and kind of the simple pleasures of the first days of spring, like when things start to wake up and you start to see crit critters in the garden and you know that kind of the beauty of just being connected to the earth. but wanting to take everyone on this journey of like how these materials could be much more sophisticated. and of course, like the story of this rabbit perfumer was just a really fun piece of the puzzle. Josh: have to say it is very rare for me to repurchase something with a collection like this. And 14 Carrots is one of those perfumes that kind of like move the needle for me. It has become one of my instant favorites. I've already killed at least one travel size of it. I need to get another one. Yeah, I was like, wow. DL: I'll make sure to set you to board. Michelle DeLorenzo: Hehehehehe Josh: To your point, the carrot in it is so present and it's unlike Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: anything I have smelled. Thousands of samples cataloged and that is a completely unique one. I love rhubarb thief It is lovely but 14 carrots was one of those perfumes that really stuck with me DL: Yeah, and you know, it's true in that it's funny, in the architecture of that collection, rhubarb thief is the hero. But interestingly enough, I I think in some ways we kind of probably came to the table a little late to the rhubarb trend because rhubarb has been trending for a while. And I never do collections that are based on a trend. They're really based on, you know, like I said, I have to just really be excited about materials. but I the carrot for me, if I had to pick a favorite, was probably my favorite in that collection. And Beekeeper, I thought Beekeeper was going to be the like runaway success. And it it does rank high. But 14 carrots has been like hands down, it's been the fan favorite out of that little grouping. and it makes me really happy because I was a little concerned that it was a little too weird. but people really, they really resonated with it. Michelle DeLorenzo: No Josh: I think it was really a bold collection in an accessible way and it led, think, especially now talking to you, pretty perfectly into the re-release or reformulations with the ghost collections of some of the more polarizing fragrances that that erotic has. DL: Yes. Josh: How do you kind of create that balance where discomfort and attraction can coexist with something like poltergeist? DL: Oof, that's a great question. stupidity. I don't Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. DL: know the right answer to this one. poltergeist for me was I always pick when we do collections, I will usually pick one fragrance that I say, I'm doing it for me. and I kind of just I'm gonna be brave and I'm gonna say maybe we're not gonna make as many bottles of this, but I'm just gonna be brave. And for me, perfumery is very much this kind of message in a bottle theory. I always feel like I'm stranded in my weird gothic office. and I'm like putting these messages inside of thousands of bottles and I'm throwing them out into the world and and see who they connect to. and poltergeist is totally one of those fragrances because when I first launched it back in 2015, I did it because there was just nothing like it. You know, I I don't know that there's anything like it now, which is also great. but Josh: There's not. DL: I I I Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. DL: felt like with poltergeist, I think the reason I made it, I made it because I was just obsessed with riding motorcycles in New York and I would ride anytime I could and I would constantly ride upstate New York. and I just loved it. I loved the whole experience of it, but I just loved like I loved getting up into You know, the mountains, and there was such very specific smell that would happen between the motorcycle exhaust. I was usually camping, so it was like the campfire, my leather jacket, the gasoline, like all of that for me was just like very visceral experience. And my motorcycle jacket that I wore everywhere, people called it the room diffuser from hell because it it reeked of. Of all of those things. And I could literally go to someone's house and set it in their house. And like within 30 minutes, the house would smell like something had been caught on fire. and it really served as a foundational point for poltergeist, because I wanted to make something. There were smoky fragrances, but everything was very polite. Do you know what I mean? Everything was like, here's a like like faux de bois, do you know what I mean? Everything was like this like charming, smoky note with a lot of musks. And I was like, no, no, I want to bitch slap someone with some smoke and and and this like green note. And so poltergeist was born. But in the like in the ratio of what we launch, I will usually like a couple times a year, I'll usually launch something that's pretty polarizing. and that's really what I say is like it's for it's it's really for someone who's really looking for something very, very different. and I I know I can't make all of our fragrances that way, nor do I think that that would be all that much fun. It's really fun to like explore these different facets and spaces. do do do does Poltergeist resonate with you guys? Michelle DeLorenzo: love the candle. Josh: I gonna say, Michelle DeLorenzo: On Josh: I struggle a little bit with poltergeist, but I Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Josh: briefly got to smell through the ghosts with Mishy when we were in San Francisco, and I think it's doppelganger and shadow people. like, I really need to try these more, because I think I'm in love. I loved the collection from Concept, but I think those are the two ghosts that resonate most with me. DL: Shadow people, I'm not gonna reveal too much, but shadow people may be poltergeist light. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Josh: It has that vibe, yeah. DL: Yeah, it definitely Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. DL: it definitely winks at poltergeist, but in a like in a different capacity. So it's a it's a little bit more approachable. I I mean, you know, I I recognize that poltergeist is listen, Chandler Burr, when I launched, he reviewed poldergeist and he said if you're looking to smell like lamb kebab, this is your fragrance. So Michelle DeLorenzo: Find it's I struggle with smoky scents on skin as they tend to give me a little bit of a headache, but like as a as a room scent, as a candle, I find them really almost intoxicating. but I mean overall, the whole I had tried the the ghost collection from last year and and obviously this one now, and I think what had stood out to me the most about the original collection was the veil because it texturally just did something so interesting. where it felt like you were like you were smelling it through this like thin, glossy, you know, almost impenetrable veil that's like it's kind of there, kind of not. And I just I was so fascinated by that texturally. And then you release this new set. And I'm like, wow, they all have this like almost almost tingly sheerness to them that make them feel kind of It feels kind of like an Josh: spectral. Michelle DeLorenzo: erotic yeah, spectrum, but like an erotic ghost story almost to me. yeah, I mean they're they're fascinating what you were able to do texturally with these. DL: thank you so much. I I have to say, and I need to give credit where credit is due. many, many of the heretic fragrances I build here at our studio from the ground up. And then typically when I build a formula, I hand them Over to a big house to make sure that they're safe. and what Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. DL: I mean by that is I a lot of times will work with materials in too high of concentrations. So, like for instance, you know, a good example is oak moss. Like oak moss is highly, highly restricted within the perfume space, and it has to do with certain molecular qualities that exist within that particular raw material. So, you know. You just have to be careful as a perfumer if you're doing something that's for the masses, that's vetted. And so that's how I work in that capacity. Ghosts, you know, I did what I did with Ghosts was I I built out what I called the spectral accords. and I really labored to build those accords out. And then I decided that I couldn't quite get them to the next level. And it it really has to do with my lack of knowledge of synthetics. because I've really spent my life studying naturals. And so I worked with a master perfumer who I my relationship, I just am so grateful to have the relationship and the working space together that we do, named Pascal Garan, who is one of our he's a genius. Michelle DeLorenzo: I love Pascal. Yeah. DL: and Pascal and I share a deep love of music and mu and and mystery and the occult. And so we started collaborating on ghosts and I sent him all of my accords. And I called our relationship a sent seance because we literally were, you know, he's in Dubai now, and so we would We rarely would have time to get on a call together. And I would send him these lengthy emails and then I would send him these bottles of these accords that I was building. And then he would work on them. And then he would send me back these notes. And it felt like in this process, we were doing this very peculiar communication that that didn't really have A lot of verbal to it. It was really based on a lot of emotion. And I was sending him playlists. and that's kind of where the Chelsea Wolf thing happened was really out of this back and forth because I kept struggling with certain formulas. And I was like, but I wanted to feel like like this moment in this Chelsea Wolf song. And and then you know, he would send me back something and I was like, that's it. Do you know what I mean? Like I somehow like he nailed it. And so we really started speaking about. our our connection with this with these formulas in that capacity, but he's the one who really took them into the space where I think that they're achieving, Michelle, what you were referring to, which is this diaphan space where they they're like, they exist in this weird liminal thing. We used all of the fragrances use a very, it's not a trick, but it's an interesting quirk. I used it in Nosferatu, which is violet ionone. and violet ionone is present in all of them. And the reason I love working with it is that it is it's called the disappearing molecule for a very specific reason. And it's that the human knows it can't consistently smell it. So what happens Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. DL: when you first smell it, you can detect it, but then when you go back to smell it again, it it causes an almost like numbness in the brain where you can't detect it on the second smell, but then when you give it a second and you go back again, you can smell it. But it keeps doing this thing where it goes away and it comes back. And so in a lot of ways, I loved working with this because for me it became a scent apparition where it's like you think you see it or you think you smell it, but then it's not there. But then you think you smell it. And so we worked with that over and over again in different capacities in the formulas. Michelle DeLorenzo: I love that. I like Josh with 14 carrots. I have purchased and repurchased and repurchased again Nosferatu. it's the only fragrance that I own, the body wash, the body lotion, the body oil, the can all of it. Josh: Ha ha. DL: I love it. Josh: Yeah, mean, Nosferatu was, I love the fact that we've used the same word. I called it the apparition of a fragrance. It has this quality to it that really speaks, I think, to like the horror and ecstasy of the purpose of the film. And that's why I thought it was such a true, amazing way to pay homage to Nosferatu, because it's not a vampire fragrance that smells like blood. It is this other entity. DL: was a you know, I don't know how far you want to go down that rabbit hole, but that was a really interesting project for me because again, you know, the gothic teenager in me about like died a ten thousand deaths when I got that phone call. and I just, Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. DL: you know, when I I growing up in Los Angeles You know, as a gothic teenager, I lived at the silent movie theater. And one of the very first films I saw there was Nosferatu. And so when when this project came about, I was just like, okay, so Eggers is going to do like he's gonna do a remake of that. So I was thinking about everything in this kind of German expressionistic idea. You know, everything was gonna be like black and white, and it was going to be this like very like visceral, like terrifying. retelling of that story. And so I had worked and worked and worked about I can't even tell you how many formulas based on what I thought I was gonna see. And then I saw it and I was like, shit. Like this is not at all that. And it was so delicate and so feminine and so romantic. And the like, I mean you're just your heart is ripped out with this like gothic love story of like, you know, the the the chase and this like unquenchable desire and you know all of these these adjectives that dis describe I think this like mm masterpiece of gothic horror that he told in it and how beautiful it all was. And then the other thing was this constant lilac that you're seeing in the film, not only the like color palette of the film, because there's this underpinning of this like pale violet gray that's in every scene. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. DL: But then there's actual lilacs. Do you know what I She's got the lilac bouquet. At the end of it they're being drowned in lilacs. and so I was like, well obviously lilac has to be like a piece of this, a big piece of the puzzle. So like it really was great and I'm so glad that it I did redo the whole thing because originally I was thinking much more, I think along the lines of like the traditional tropes that we think of with vampires of like candle smoke and blood and you know, roses and like all incense and all of these types of notes. And I wanted this to really feel like it was very much an extension of Egar's vision and not that it was like a novelty product that was just, you know, somehow inspired by it. Michelle DeLorenzo: I'm very glad it's it's permanent and it it's here to stay. I think you you also did something similar with Hackson, where I feel like it's a it's a witchy fragrance that is so unlike any others that are, you know, really inspired by this idea as well, because it it feels more of like a love and appreciation for these, you know, for for these witchy women. Can you tell us a little bit about like how that came to be and how you how your thought process went into deciding the notes that go into that? DL: Michelle, I can't even begin to tell you. I feel like you'll have to make sure that you give me your address of where I write the check. because that was such a beautiful beautiful Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. DL: representation of it. thank you very Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. DL: much. That means more than I can possibly tell you. I I really when I say hacking was a very hard fragrance for me to release, it really was because the word witch for me is very sacred. it's very profound. You know, witch and heretic are almost one and the same. and you know, the idea of the witch for me, it has never ever been something that I've taken lightly. and from my earliest ages, there's been something about that icon for me that has felt very Sacred. That's the only word that I can put around it. And so to do a fragrance inspired by the word witch and what a witch is and means, it was it was terrifying in a lot of ways because I did not want to misrepresent something for me that is so sacred. witches and witchcraft have allowed me to discover pieces of myself that I didn't know existed. it made me it's The idea of the witch and that connection to nature has reminded me that. Our journey on this earth is so important to connect to everything that is around us, and also to remember that this vessel that we're in is this temple, and that we have this ability to connect to nature and to spirits and those that have passed. And you know, there's something for me about. This that I wanted to make the fragrance feel celebratory. I wanted the fragrance to feel beautiful. I wanted it to feel mysterious. and I really for me one of the notes that has always captivated me and that is straddled this line between masculine and feminine, because I think that when you say the word witch, most people say that that's a feminine term. For me, it is such an androgynous term. because I feel like if we're being truly honest, that the masculine and feminine live so deeply within all of us. And I wanted, and I think that the witch, those that that truly subscribe subscribe to this, that they acknowledge that the male and the female lives inside of them deeply. And that the one note for me that felt like it really spoke to both sides of masculine and feminine was Osmanthus. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. DL: and I think that Osmanthus is one of those notes that it's like it presents itself as both this, it presents itself as a hermaphrodite. It's just magical, you know, it's it's it's leathery and masculine and tough. And at the same time, it's soft and poetic and beautiful. and like I think it embodies all those adjectives that we associate with both the masculine and the feminine. Osmanthus can be really off-putting and it can be it can be hard and and sickening. And then at the same time it can it can redefine itself into something that feels definitively innocent and and almost virginal. and so I really felt like that was the core of of Os of a Hackson because to me that really is the witch. You know, the witch is the embodiment of the maiden, the mother, and the crone. and it is like all of these aspects that come together. And so I wanted to build that formula out where it really celebrated all of those aspects in in all of its guises. You know, like for me, the maiden, you know, is very represented by these kind of innocent florals. And so it has an accord that's built around these white roses and this osmanthus. But then there is the mother aspect, which is very much, you know, it it starts to move into some of those bass chords that feel fully realized. And then finally the crone, where I worked with a lot of these kind of what I would call subterranean notes that get really visceral and that they have they have lived a long time. And they they are here to tell you how it is. and so that for me was really where Hackson came from. Michelle DeLorenzo: I love it. I love it even more hearing that. Josh: Yeah, I mean, when Haxson came out, Michi texted me and was like, you're gonna like this one. And I do have Michelle DeLorenzo: Ha ha ha Josh: a bottle of it. And when I wore it recently, my roommate was like, this is you as a fragrance. What are you wearing? Because it has that I DL: I love it. Michelle DeLorenzo: I Josh: am very much of like very earthy, mushroomy, like that is where I exist really as I appreciate other profiles, but that's my my core. And that Especially on me, find the oak moss and the osmanthus are just so stunning. So it was fun that I appreciate the witchy aesthetic and things of that nature. then my roommate's like, this is you as a perfume. What are you wearing? DL: It was Josh: What are you doing? so I think there is something to be said though. You have these elements, you have the vampire, you have the witch, you have the ghosts. There's a lot of supernatural ritualistic aspects that are shown up in Heretic, and I think it goes back a lot to the roots of who you are as the brand founder. Do you feel connected to that darker aesthetic? And how do you feel like it alters the presentation of the brand? DL: all of these symbols that you're talking about, the witch, the vampire, the ghosts, to me, these are just all metaphors for shadow. and I think that the the brand I you know, I think that when you start talking about shadow material, From the aspect of psychology, I think this is where you really get into some interesting things. I love Gothic, I love the Gothic space, and you know, I it's where I definitely thrive and I know it really well, and and I love to share it with people and I love to show a new a new way of looking at it because I think for so long the gothic subject matter has been relegated to I hate to say Halloween, but I think that it's really boiled down for a lot of people, you know, into Halloween. And for me, this is never ever, you know, obviously Halloween is one of my favorite holidays, and my birthday is very close to it, so it's very special. and I love that the world all of a sudden it has permission to step into this space of accessing their darker side. But I think that for me, these these subjects or these metaphors. They speak to shadows that live with live within us. And I think that that's why it's attractive to a lot of people. because it allows them to kind of access and discover different facets of themselves. and I think that for some people it can be these subjects can kind of be put into a box and labeled. this is a witch or this is a ghost and then I think for other people that allows them to kind of connect to this pe this piece of themselves that is much deeper. and that's really, you know, I think where I am excited to see the brand growing in this direction. I'm also I'm excited to, you know, I love the fact that there's now other brands that are starting to venture into this space as well and explore the kind of darker aspects of scent and of mythology and all of this. I think that, you know, for Heretic, I'm thrilled to kind of continue down this journey of bringing these subjects into the light in a way that allow people access to them and where we're exploring it from an academic standpoint, and also from the standpoint of self-exploration. Michelle DeLorenzo: I think we we talk a lot on the podcast about how we both use fragrance as ritual, as self-care, as, you know, becoming the person you want to be that day. And, you know, there's I think there's a lot to be said about about that and how we care for ourselves and how we put on almost like an armor of our fragrance. but do you think that that scent can almost alter s psychological spaces? DL: when undoubtedly. I mean, and the best part about this is it's actually scientifically proven. You know, it's it's incredible. There's been so many studies that have been done where they've introduced different types of fragrances in different environments, and that there's, you know, noticeable differences in the psychological behavior of people. specifically, there's a brilliant study that was done in England on patients that were suffering from depression, and that by exposing the patients to citrus, that it improved their cognitive as well as their overall feelings of happiness. And so I think that that's, you know, scent is as I'm sure you guys have unpacked this a million times on this podcast, but scent is to boil it into something simple. It appeals or it it is placed into the aspect of the brain that's called the the limbic or the lizard brain. And it's the most not understood area of the brain. We don't really understand it at all. We do understand that it functions to help us detect whether the milk has gone off or whether we detect gas leak, danger. But the other side of this is is that it connects to memory, it connects to you know, feelings, emotions, and it can trigger like landmines, and you never know when it will go off. and so I think that Scent has this unbelievable ability of being able to dramatically alter like your feelings about who you are, who you want to become. and it's just really like how much do you want to step into that space? How much do you want to how much are you willing to let go and to allow yourself to step into these different emotions that are coming forwards in fragrance? I think that that's also, although this isn't what you asked, but I think it's also why we're seeing this like, I mean, fragrance is the fastest growing category in beauty. And I think that there's, you know, if you really want to like get into the socioeconomic side of things, you know, the youth right now is has grown up with technology and grown up with a connectedness, and there's more aspect of communication happening than ever. And I think that as we communicate more about fragrance and we start to understand more about it, more people want to participate in it. And there's also like this newer generation has really dismantled so many of the tropes that we're hanging around about sexuality and identity and you know being hung up on this, that, and the other. And so with that, it just feels natural that you scent would be, you know, a more kind of If you're going to live a more realized version of yourself, that it would be integrated, you know, into it. I mean, it makes perfect sense. Michelle DeLorenzo: I think it's you know, we're definitely seeing this sort of phenomenon where I think fragrance started to boom during COVID where people were losing their scent of smell. their sense of smell, sorry. And it became almost like a fascination at that point of like ordering discovery sets and but now I think coming out of COVID and living in this this world where we felt so isolated for so long, it's grown to not just about smelling good. It's grown to be about community as well. Because I know for a lot of us, for Josh and I, for so many of my friends now, it's brought us together with people that we never would have met in the real world. You know, Josh and I live thousands of miles away and we probably never would have met in person if it wasn't for talking about fragrance on TikTok. So I think it's a really beautiful, like, not only is it connecting us, not only is it opening us up this world for all of us, but There is also that aspect of, you know, for me personally, I rediscovered and refell love with fragrance because of, you know, after I had my children, I I needed to find myself of sense myself, my my sense of self again. And yeah, it's just it's so incredible how many different generations and how we all experience and how we all come together over it. DL: I couldn't agree more. And to add to that, you know, in my experience, one of the things that I have loved more than anything about Working in the fragrance industry is the times that I get to do custom blending sessions. And when I do a custom blending session, it's really sacred work for me. You know, it means a real investment of my time and the person's time. Custom fragrance development typically will be a minimum of three months, usually six months. It happens over, you know, long sessions, a lot of smelling and a lot of communication. And the thing that I love about this. Is that obviously I've spent my life studying mysticism and the occult as well as psychology. And so my session work, I feel like it's a hybrid of like a tarot card reading and seeing your therapist and then going to the cosmetic Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. DL: counter. and you know, the thing I love the most about it is I would get these adult, you know, obviously these are adults. And they're willing to spend money on making something. But they would come in, and what was very interesting is I would get these like very high-powered adults that would sit down with me and they would start off in this capacity where they were like, I am going to exert control over the situation because this is who I am and this is who I present. And then all of a sudden, I would watch them be reduced to a five-year-old child in front of me in seconds because they had no way of being able to communicate. With me about what they were smelling, they didn't have the language, and they were reverting back to how they feel. And so I think that going back to what you were saying and the connectivity of the fragrance industry is that the thing that makes this so powerful is that as adults, we are communicating each other about the way something makes us feel. And that is powerful. Because it's Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. DL: giving us a reason. I mean, like, you know, this is just this, it's just juice in a bottle. It's the fact that we're spending the time together to talk about how I feel. You know what I mean? And then you're saying Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. DL: to me, but that's how I feel. And there's this I see you moment that's happening where it's like, we're talking about this, but the fact is we're actually talking about this. And that's the power in fragrance, you know what I mean, where you get to have this shared experience. And we just don't get to do that, you know, very often anymore. And even like no matter if you're married or in partnership or whatever the case is, it's like I hate to say it, but I'm sure a lot of people's relationships You know, I struggle with my own where it's like, you know, you work eight hours, you work ten hours, fourteen hours, and then you go home and my God, the last thing you want to do is like sit down and be like, This is how I feel. you know, you just are like, I just wanna decompress and then like you gotta get back into it the next day. So I think that scent becomes this like interesting medium that is just a vehicle for us to be able to connect in a level that's that's really meaningful. Michelle DeLorenzo: Agreed. Josh: There's an aspect too where fragrance serves a lot as a bridge between the emotional, the physical, and oftentimes the psychological or spiritual, depending on how people perceive it. I subscribe to the idea that like magic and ritual is about intention and psychology. And when you get into the way people wear perfumes as armor or as protection or as confidence. You also can see the way that people, especially that are attracted to the Gothic aesthetic, wear the darkness as an armor or the darkness as a blanket because it resonates with those old wounds, psychologically, spiritually, metaphysically. So there's so much that I think is so interesting in that aspect, especially when there's a brand like Heretic that does open that door and invites people to view and experience it that way as that bridge. DL: Yeah, and I you could that was beautiful and so well said. I I also think that there's just How many vanilla latte fragrances do we need? You Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. DL: know, that's the other side of this. It's like, There's other ways of looking at things, you know, and there's there's other ways of existing. and I think, you know, to your point, I don't think that there's I don't think everyone out there really necessarily wants to smell like a pumpkin spice latte. I think that there's a lot of other I think there's a lot of people out there that are interested in something that is truly different and that really speaks to who they are. And so as a brand, I have wanted to be that beacon. I've wanted to be that place. where you can come and there's there's something that is for you if you are left of center. Josh: So speaking, you know, from the perspective of a brand that is still growing, even though being quite well known, what do you feel is getting lost in the industry as brands strive for mass appeal over emotional specificity? DL: I hate to say what I'm gonna say. personality. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. DL: I really do. I think that the safest fragrances often become the most forgettable. and I really think that I'd rather be creating something that's for a small group of people that are going to become obsessed with it than for a fragrance that is going to P that's going to be like okay, or that like is going to be accepted by a large group of people, but they're going to forget it. so that for me is much more important. and I think that the like emotional safety side of things, I actually really don't think that customers are looking for emotional safety and fragrance anymore. I think they're actually looking for quite the opposite. I think that they're looking for someone. I'm gonna bring it back to being bitch slapped. I think that they kind of are looking for people to say like, I'm I'm unafraid to take you on a journey and and here we go. Michelle DeLorenzo: I agree. That's certainly it's certainly what I look for in in my fragrances. but do you is niche perfumery, do you think it it is still experimental or is it developing its own rules, or is there kind of this like category that is living outside of this like niche world? 'Cause I don't think that niche really means what it used to mean ten, fifteen years ago. DL: I agree with you. I mean, and I also wanna I also I I don't wanna redact what I said, but when I say shock people, I think that there's like shocking people and then there's shocking people. Do you know what I mean? It's like I Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. DL: think that you know, you've gotta do something where there's shock factor. And then there's something that's shocking and interesting. and I'm not Josh: Mm-hmm. DL: talking about shock factor. I'm talking about something that's like shock like truly shocking and interesting. I think the the key here is is that for me, I think that one of the most important parts about being a perfumer is my innate curiosity. Like I am just I I I don't care whether it smells good, bad, like I just I love experiencing scent in all of its forms and guises. and I think that you know in the niche world what needs to continue to happen is the experimentation and the curiosity factor. And I think that that's where we're starting to see I don't know. It feels like in I it I just think the industry as a whole has just kind of redefined itself. Like, you know, there was the people that we thought of as niche, like the Birados and the Lalabos, are now mass. You know, those really they're Josh: Mm-hmm. DL: not niche anymore. you there's like, you know, you can now find Lalabo stores almost everywhere. and I think that they've kind of set the new benchmark for what is mass in a lot of ways. and so the new niche. You know, I think if you are niche and you are actually living up to what it means to be niche, it is to make fragrances that are really for small segments. And and to do that, I think you really have to be curious and you also have to have a point of view. so it's like, you know, I I will tell you that like If you're listening to this and you're a heretic fan, I promise you, I'm probably always going to be taking you on some kind of crazy dark journey. and the New York Times just referred to us as reliably spooky. And I almost died. I was like, This is fantastic. Like it couldn't have been a more perfect representation. I was like reliable meaning safe and spooky. I was like, Yes, we are safely spooky. So Josh: Ha ha ha. DL: Y you know, and I think that that's our perspective. So I think as a fragrance house, you know, you really do have to have perspective and you need to continue to explore within within your space. Josh: I think as we move kind of towards our closing ritual, Douglas, what is a fragrance or scent that still haunts you to this day? DL: I'm gonna give you two quick answers because I know that we are we're probably running out of time. on the more linear side of it, the more perfumer answer to this is when I was in the early stages of Heretic, I used to work with this this guy who would bring me natural materials to smell. And he was working with these very small, Distilleries. He had a distillery out of India that was doing a distillation of blue water lotus. And when I tell you I I have very few regrets in this life, I will always regret that I did not buy everything that he had. This material was so otherworldly. I have tried and I have the bare scrapings of like. A bottle that has this dried remnants of it. And I have tried and tried and tried to recreate it. And there's it's just the most elusive haunting material. And I I truly to describe it, it was lyrical, ethereal, pale, violet, pink, sunsets, orgasms, mushrooms, water. Dandelion hair, it was so ethereal and magical. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. DL: and it was thousands of dollars an ounce. And I I had no money, and I was buying literally like he would sell me, I think I was buying like 20 or 30 drops at a time. And it was such powerful material that it took so little for it to go so long. So I was able to really like milk it for what it was. That material will forever haunt me. And I've contacted him, I contact him usually twice a year to ask. And unfortunately, the the gentleman who was doing the distillation passed away. And his children had no interest in learning the art of it. And so there it goes. Do you know what I mean? And this kind of goes back to the beauty of naturals and like the importance of passing down the lineage and the knowledge of this is that, you know, these natural materials, you know, they're like wine. You know what I mean? It's like a a great grape. in bad distillation hands, you're gonna get terrible wine. you know, in the right hands with the right knowledge, you can make real magic. The other Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. DL: haunting scent for me that will never go away, it's not a great memory, was in the passing of my grandmother. and there was there's this very specific odor of there's a very specific medical odor. I'll call it a medical odor, that I encounter it often, and when I do, it's It's a haunting memory for sure. And that's the thing about scent is that, you know, you really can't control those scent memories that are profound. sometimes they're good and sometimes they're not. And but they all have space, you know what I mean? They all exist for a really interesting reason. And so sometimes I've been I've been thinking a lot about that particular scent memory as of late and the aspect of how to potentially work with that. Because as I talk to, you know, I unfortunately I think we all we I think a lot of people have had brushes with like hospitals and medical situations and all of that. And there's a very interesting common thread that's there that could be an interesting thing to unpack olfactively and to see where it could take could take the journey. So we'll see. Michelle DeLorenzo: backstory is last year I cared for my my father who passed away of cancer. And there there are a lot of smells around that whole experience that I now like greatly struggle with. And so last week my mom had a minor scare, but we still had to go to the the emergency room and made the conscious choice to take her to a totally different hospital. I'm like, don't want to walk in that one that we were at for nine months. And I was so taken immediately by the smell of the place and how much it just like plummeted me back into those feelings. I'm like, this is wild. And it wasn't necessarily a bad smell or an off-putting smell or something that if I had bottled it would say this is n gross. But it was so distinct. And I'm like, how do these two spaces smell incredibly similar and bring up these exact same feelings? But yeah, it was, it was. a wild sort of felt like I was brought into a different dimension for a moment. DL: Yeah, I I really get it. Michelle DeLorenzo: What are the what are the kind of fragrances that you hope haunt others? DL: When it when you say the word haunt to me, it's I want the work that I'm doing. I hope that that it's connecting people to a piece of themselves. I think that that's what I hope for more than anything. this work that I'm doing as a perfumer and as a storyteller. I I value it in the way that I want it to be able to like hopefully the haunting piece of it is like it it makes you realize that you're not alone. It makes you realize that there's there's Whole lot of other weirdos that are out there that are just like you and that we we can kind of celebrate together and that we can see the beauty that lives so deeply inside of us. I think that that's what I hope more than anything that this if I if I say haunting, I really hope that that's that's the goal of this work, is that it connects. to people and that it it helps them to see that maybe what they have felt their whole life is like something that they should hide or not talk about or that they've been ashamed of is actually something that they can celebrate. and I think that that's the power of heretic. Josh: Yeah, and I think something can haunt in both positive and negative connotations. So I didn't mean that in a negative way. think I am haunted Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: by freesia because I tend to hate it and everything I smell. But likewise, I'm haunted by fragrances that bring a sense of like hugging a lost loved one. DL: yeah. Josh: So I view it both ways. Are there any... Are you trying to explore something through scent? that you haven't reached for quite yet? Or are there any concepts that you've wanted to explore but it's just not the right time? DL: loaded question. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. DL: yeah, I the past couple years I have been on rapid fire. You know, the thing interesting thing about heretic is that heretic is self-funded. and so that's something I think that maybe a lot of people don't realize. is that I believed in this enough that I did something insane. I mean, I think about it now and I cannot believe how insane I was. but in my life working in corporate beauty, I had I, you know, had the like kind of coziness of corporate beauty where I had a four one K and like all of those kind of safety nets. and I had built up a savings and my my mom was very happy that I had done that. And then I said to her, I was like, yeah, I am really unhappy and I really need to do this work. Like this work is work that I I have to chase this dream and I do not want to do this again where I lose everything. and so It I just remember her saying to me, like, we need her thing with me was like, I don't care if you take a gallon of acid. as long as you understand what you're doing and you understand the repercussions of it, you're willing to accept those consequences, you do it. and but she was like, I will not be here to hold your hand if you fall down. And my mom had passed shortly after, and I just remember when I made this conscious decision. I sold my house, I cashed in my 401k, and I put it all into the business. And I was like I'm if this takes me down, it's gonna take me down. But I'm gonna do it the way I wanna do this. And I'm gonna do it unapologetically. And you know, since it keretics started to find find an audience and it started to gain traction, I am having a hard time holding back. I that's the best thing. It's like I have so many thoughts about things that I want to do and how I want to venture and move forwards. so it's been a little bit difficult and I've I've really been very fortunate that I've had some really wonderful people come in to help advise and to guide the company. but as far as like things that I haven't really touched yet, I I The brand is going to start to really venture out into a lot more personal care. and this is a space where I'm so excited Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. DL: to venture into because I think that that personal care, like the way we've been presented, personal care, I think is just so prosaic. And I think that Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. DL: there's an entire new world that we can we can venture into where it makes personal care feel far more interesting, far more connected, and also to like not try to chase beauty, because I think that that's so much of the like what we've been taught is like to chase this idea of physical perfection, to chase this idea of like your face needs to look the specific way or whatever the case is. And I think that there's an entire new definition of the way that we can work with products to actually connect to mind, body, spirit, and also work with the ingredients in ways where the ingredients are much more meaningful, rather than them just being these kind of like Whispered ingredients that are more marketing adjectives. So, like the kind of storytelling that I've applied to these fragrances we've built, the next chapter is going to be really exploring personal care and more of that space from that same perspective and seeing like how interesting we can make the world of cosmetic and personal care. Michelle DeLorenzo: I'm very excited to see where that goes. Josh: as am I. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for your time, Douglas. This has been amazing from two fans to you. DL: No, thank you, I Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah, incredible. DL: so grateful for the time and also you know as I was talking about like for me more than anything it's like this this aspect of being able to connect with people and to have these conversations and obviously I'm very flattered and honored that you asked me to do this today but more than that it's like that we got to spend this time. Michelle DeLorenzo: We appreciate you so much. Josh: And to our viewers and listeners, if you have also enjoyed this, this is the time to plug. If you have enjoyed this and you like our other episodes, please like and subscribe. It really helps us reach new audiences. And we will be back next week with another episode. Thank you. Michelle DeLorenzo: Okay, love you. Bye.