Ember: was never really into perfume when I was growing up. I just kind of thought that they all smelled very similar, at least the ones that I saw at the department store. ⁓ And so, ⁓ know, it it wasn't until I got into indie perfumery that I really started to get into perfumes. ⁓ personally in my work, I just kind of like to do ⁓ whatever feels like world and I... in my head smells like, rather than like following all of these set in stone rules that other perfumers follow of like using all of these materials like Ambroxan and and Iso E Super just to make like a base I guess what I would want to say is my perfumery styles is different than a lot of mainstream and even a lot of niche brands because I grew up always wanting to smell things that were like really pretty and sweet and not necessarily perfumey, know, Ambroxan and stuff I like, but it makes me sneeze. So, so it's, you know, Michy: Same. Ember: I basically recreate the world as I see it in my fragrances and I see it in a very colorful, happy way. Michy: thank you so much, Ember, for joining us today. For those who don't know, Ember is the owner and perfumer behind Hoshigato perfumes. ⁓ And I'm so excited to have you here today so excited to be discovering, ⁓ going through the samples that I got from you there is really just so much. joy in your fragrances. They bring me so much light and they all feel very dreamlike. Was that something that you set out to do or ⁓ did you develop that along the way? Ember: when I was originally developing like the brand around the fragrances, I ⁓ came up the name Hoshigato, which ⁓ is ⁓ of mnemonic that I used to help me learn Spanish and Japanese in high school. ⁓ And when I was thinking about that, Michy: Mm. Ember: I mean, it's kind of a long story with a mnemonic part, but when I was thinking about it, the character that came up for me was like a cat who sleeps in the clouds and like plays with the stars and stuff like that. So my branding is very much like, you know, dreamy celestial cat vibes. Michy: Lay is feeling those vibes. She cannot stop jumping in. Josh: Yeah. Ember: Yeah. Josh: And before we dive into ⁓ all of the expounding questions that come from that, can you give everyone a little bit of introduction about who you are and the brand itself? Ember: my name is Amber Bennett and I started making perfumes in like late 2019 and I didn't start selling them until 2024 in like June. So I was making fragrances for a really long time before I launched anything. And really what I wanted to do with my fragrances is just make things that I felt like other people just kind of straight away from making, you know. whenever I would smell something that was described as like fruity or gourmand or something, it just all had that like, that same kind of perfumey adult type of mature base to it. And I just kind of thought, you know, if I was going to make something fruity and whimsical or dark and mysterious or something, I would just like go all in on that, you know, and not be afraid to stray away from like the conventional feeling of a lot of perfumes that I grew up smelling. Michy: I think we, I think all of us in this indie space feel very much like that. Like we, we just want more. We would just want something interesting that's going against the status status quo. We're, we're all really very punk rock at the end of the day. Josh: I liked ⁓ the way Mishy described your fragrances do come across very kind of dreamlike. ⁓ They sometimes feel more ⁓ me like a memory or an atmosphere than like a physical object or a time and place. And do you feel like that style of work that you have ⁓ the kind of that more playful approach that you have both in your branding and perfumery is taken less seriously? Ember: . Josh: than more technical perfumery. I used air quotes for the audio listeners. ⁓ Michy: Yeah. Ember: I recently actually came in with a designer. ⁓ She's going to help me like do a little bit of tweaking on my brand and make it a little bit more streamlined and everything. And one of the things that I told her was that I feel like people don't take my brand as seriously because it looks really cute. You know, and I want to keep the cuteness, but perhaps make it look like an adult designed it maybe a little bit. ⁓ like leaning more into like Sanrio and stuff like that, ⁓ which is kind of where I got my inspiration from, but I'm not as adept at it as she is. I think, ⁓ you know, continuing, it's gonna be a cute brand and it's gonna be like a whimsical thing. And I think that a lot of like cute and feminine designs aren't really taken super seriously. And also I feel like, you know, I've had a couple people do blind smells of my fragrances and the way that they describe it without having seen my branding is very different. I think that the branding does play into how people view the fragrances as being kind of like maybe childish or ⁓ not very mature, but I think there's something that I would like to smell and I'm an adult. So. Michy: Yeah, I mean, I would say it's very much the opposite. Like all of them felt very, very complex and not what I would consider. I mean, I think it's so pejorative to say that something is like juvenile or say those things like so or like old lady. It's so ridiculous to like ⁓ sign an age to fragrances. ⁓ But that being said, I didn't feel that any of them came off juvenile in any way. thought the. Ember: Mm-hmm. Michy: I love the packaging. Like when I opened my box and I saw this, I had such a smile on my face. Like this is so cute and so exciting. My daughter will likely steal it from me, but we can enjoy it together is all that means. Josh: Hahaha Ember: Good. Yeah, Michy: ⁓ ever felt any pressure to make your work more direct or more mature? ⁓ Air quotes again on mature. ⁓ Ember: Yeah, I feel like, you know, there's, I really haven't felt the need to change the profile to be more mature. Although I have felt like, I don't know, maybe I should just like put the, like a big amount of Ambroxan in there or something. And I have experimented with it. It's not like I'm against it. It's just like, I want to avoid making something that smells more like a perfume than it does like a thing or like. like Joss shed a memory that I have or like a place that I like to be in. ⁓ Which, know, ⁓ Creep and a lot of my other like more popular fragrances are like very memory focused for me. And so I wouldn't want to necessarily change my style. I have felt a little bit pressured to maybe like make my branding a little bit more basic, but I don't. Michy: Mm-hmm. Ember: really want to do that because so many people like it. And I feel, you know what, it's just going to be how it's going to be, you know? And people like uniqueness, you know? And for anybody who doesn't like it, then there's a million other brands that are branded differently. Michy: Yeah, you mentioned ⁓ adding Ambroxan to your fragrances and I think it would be really interesting to know because you know so much about the technical side of things. What does adding Ambroxan or overdosing Ambroxan into a fragrance really do to that composition for you? Ember: Well, I honestly like it. ⁓ I like it when other brands do it sometimes like a Cirrus, Zoë at Cirrus Perfume. She made a perfume called Moon Bathing and that one has a huge Ambrox overdose in it. And I really liked that one. It's just that like for me, whenever I spray it on myself, it makes me sneeze a lot and it makes my nose like stuffy. Michy: I moonbathing. Ember: I wouldn't say that I'm necessarily allergic to it, but I think it just kind of overwhelms my nose when I first spray it on me and it just kind of makes me stuffy. And it makes it a little bit hard to work with. Michy: Yeah. Yeah. Ambroxan. Yeah. If for, Moonbathing is definitely an exception to this. I have a 10 ml of it and I absolutely adore it. But I think a lot of times when Ambroxan and is overdosed and I mean, I guess I put it into the same category in my mind as Super Ambers where they just make things feel really sharp to my nose. ⁓ but that being said, it's not, it's not a note I will discount if I see it, if I think the perfumer did it well. Ember: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think maybe I talk about Ambroxan as an example too often, but I'm talking about like, you know, like the, you know, the flowery, ambry, isoe super, and like a, and you get based that all of these designer perfumes have. And, you know, whenever it's like a different perfume, they just change like a couple of things and it just doesn't feel like. Michy: Mm-hmm. Ember: Like what it's marketed as, I guess, like when somebody in a designer brand markets their fragrance as being like a fruit salad or something like that, it just smells like amber and muguet and like a little bit of ethyl maltol. And that just makes me so mad. Like I just want to smell like what it wants, like what it says it smells like, you know? And I feel like they're doing a little bit better job nowadays. Like I've seen a lot of diversity in brands. Michy: Yeah. Josh: Right. Ember: and like diversity and what they carry at Sephora and stuff like that. you know, when I was growing up, it wasn't really like that all that much. Michy: Yeah. I think we're starting to see, we're starting to see baby steps there. feel like if Sephora would carry some of the brands that they carry online in their stores, I think they would be so much better off because some of my favorite brands that are on Sephora are on their website only. it, it like, I want to go in store and I want to experience them and I want more people to be able to experience them. But it's, can, I can talk for an entire episode on my gripes with Sephora. Ember: Yeah. saw some other creators talking about how competitive the fragrance shelf at Sephora is and how you have to get people always over there smelling things and buying things if you want to keep your spot. So it's ⁓ especially for a niche brand because people don't want to ⁓ to Sephora and smell like Tosca Vat or something like that. ⁓ Michy: ⁓ yeah. Yeah. it's, they also have a very heavy hand in once you sign on as one of their brands, they, they get very heavily involved in your creative process. ⁓ where if it's going to be released with them, they have to have final approval of the fragrance. so I know it's definitely, it's taken some brands in a different direction. Some, you know, yeah, some good. Ember: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's a big complaint I see a lot of people have. Michy: some horrendous boy smells. Don't think we forgot about you. ⁓ Ember: Yeah. Josh: It's been a few episodes. I hate boy smells. Let's put it out there. but getting back to you as the guest episode, you know, we were talking a little bit about you, your perspective is, know, you want a perfume that smells like what you wanted it to smell like, whether that is fruit loops and almond milk, or, you know, this dream of, you know, blueberries and clouds and Michy: ⁓ Tangents. Ember: Yeah. Michy: Mm-hmm. I love that one. Ember: Mm-hmm. Josh: How do you approach translating something intangible, like a rainbow, into a perfume? Ember: not always the same, but when it comes to rainbow, I actually didn't intend for it to be ⁓ a ⁓ rainbow I trying to make a like a just like a fresh strawberry moment, but I discovered using my like floral materials that I was making something that smelled like a waterfall, like a like a misty waterfall. And I was like, OK, you know what? I'm going to roll with that. ⁓ And then I just kind of finished it out as Rainbow. ⁓ But usually I'll have a vision like when I did Creep, ⁓ which is one of the perfumes I've been working on since I first started perfumery. That one was inspired by a memory I had of me and my friends like before the first day of my senior year. I had always been friends with seniors. So that year I was like, ⁓ my God, am I gonna like... I have to sit alone at the lunch table kind of thing. I was really nervous to go to school the next day. And then one of my sister's friends comes over at like 10 o'clock at night, like the day before school. I'm like, what are you doing here? And she's like, hey, there's a meteor shower outside. Let's go watch it. And we lived in a really small rural town. So you could just like go anywhere and sit down and watch something. So. We took an old mattress from our garage and dragged it all the way over to like the old cemetery in town and just laid there and watched the shooting stars at night and just like slept there. About on the bus the next day. Michy: you Josh: I love it. As someone who took many MySpace photoshoots in a cemetery, I relate. Michy: That's a beautiful memory. Ember: Ours wasn't super aesthetic. It was from like the 1800s and like there was like five graves there. It's a super small town. Nobody freaking lives there. So we didn't we weren't really concerned about staying out there all night. Michy: Same. Go. I'm smelling through as you're describing all of them and I love hearing what goes into that experience for you. Ember: ⁓ and I actually, I guess I kind of forgot to say how I did it, but actually for Creep, I did put some Ambroxan type material in there called Settle Ox. And it's cause I felt like it belonged there. You know, I don't add things to fragrances that don't really belong there for me just because they're supposed to be in there. And when it comes to like formulating a fragrance, ⁓ I always do it. Michy: Yeah. Ember: from scratch, you I don't have a chords that I mixed together and I don't have like one strawberry accord that I use throughout my fragrances. I have a couple of different methods that I've talked about in the introduction to perfumery guide that I wrote, which is a hundred percent free if anybody wants to become a perfumer someday. ⁓ And one of the methods that I like to use is ⁓ Michy: Love that. Ember: Core to the outskirts kind of. So you start a core, a cord of like five materials ⁓ and you get your like basic concept down, you know, like a, when I was strawberry milk cake, I made like a very basic vanilla cake, a cord with like ⁓ one strawberry material in it. And I made that like ⁓ solid. And then I went out and I added some things that would like make the formula a little bit more complex, some more stuff to the cake accord, some more stuff to the strawberry accord, just kind of complexify it. And then to the outskirts, the very outskirts, the finishing touches, the stuff that just kind of makes it sparkle and, ⁓ adjustments that I make in order to make it last and perform the way that I want it. So that's one of the methods. I've also used what I call like a base to top method where I start with the base notes and then I work my way up to the top notes. I like that because ⁓ the top notes are the first thing you smell. So you really want that to be the last thing you make because it gives you lot of control over that first impression. And that way you're not like changing the top notes because you have to add more base notes or anything like that. You already know what it's ⁓ doing, you know? If I could explain like that. Josh: It's a really interesting perspective too because there are a few brands out there that I have personal beef with because I think their openings are super strong and their dry-downs suck. Ember: That was one of the things. ⁓ ⁓ I, as a fruit person, obviously, am thinking about the fruit, which is usually a top note. ⁓ And so I started doing the bass top method because ⁓ I was finding myself having a really, nice opening. And then just the bass notes were just bad. ⁓ Josh: But yeah. Ember: So I start from the bass notes and then go to the top so I have a really solid foundation and a good middle note and then I can play with the stuff that I like which is top notes. Michy: anything that think people misunderstand about your approach to perfumery? Ember: really necessarily my approach, I don't think. ⁓ But I'm in the beginner perfumery community a lot. I really like helping other people figure out this medium because it's really secretive ⁓ historically has been pretty impossible to break into for anybody who's not in the ⁓ who gets to go to the French perfumery schools and stuff like that. ⁓ But there's just a lot of misinformation about perfumery in general online, especially because like the only thing that comes up when you Google how to make a perfume are like SEO, intense SEO blogs about like how to mix essential oils and baby powder and stuff like that. So I mean, every, every other week we get some sort of like new Michy: Thank Josh: Yeah. Ember: batch of blogs that people are reading and they have a new batch of misconceptions about perfumery that we have to kind of go over and be like, no, just don't Google how to make a perfume. Josh: Bye. Ember: like ⁓ recently there's been like a lot of people making tinctures. I just made a video about on TikTok ⁓ and people not just making like a tincture, but like putting a bunch of honey and cinnamon and stuff in alcohol and thinking that that is how to make a perfume. Yeah. And it's like, that would be great to drink, but you are making a drink. Josh: Babe, that's mead. You just make mead. Michy: Mm. doing. Josh: Right. Can you share some of the resources and locations like base notes on the internet that does have good information if someone is listening and wants to research? Ember: Yeah. Yeah. So on ⁓ website, ⁓ I have a free introduction to perfumery guide. And that'll take you from your first order of your aroma chemicals and lab wear and all of the other stuff, all the way to making your first perfume. So it takes you through ⁓ studies, blending, IFRA, and ⁓ much anything you would want to know before making a perfume. ⁓ And also, if you have questions, you can go on r slash DIY fragrance on Reddit. That's where I usually am. base notes also has a forum, although I find it kind of hard to navigate to, you probably have to search their DIY fragrance forum on there on Google just to get to that page. Cause they, they redid the thing and it's, hard to navigate to. ⁓ and then also there are creators on a Tik TOK, ⁓ 16, 18 Tuesdays, God, I can't, Sarah McCartney, God. Yeah, Sarah McCartney makes perfumery content. ⁓ I don't know who people are watching nowadays. I think they used to watch Sam Mercer. I don't know if there's like any other new creators who are teaching beginner perfumeries skills besides me, Sarah. ⁓ Michy: ⁓ Sarah McCartney. Yeah. Yeah. Josh: Sarah McCartney. Yep. Ember: Atwood has been making some perfume videos on TikTok where he talks about like some notes and perfume chemicals and stuff like that. Michy: Mm-hmm. Ember: But always, always go to a perfumer, like a website or a blog that has perfumers in it and not a Google blog that's like telling you how to mix essential oils together. That's just like the number one rule. Just ask a perfumer and you'll be okay. Michy: Okay. Yeah. Essential oils are not perfume people. Sorry. Ember: You can make a perfume with essential oils, they're, you know, the number one way you can tell is if they're telling you to like put five drops of lavender in like a glass of water or something like that. Michy: on my skin make me incredibly, incredibly nervous. Ember: Mm. Josh: So I think that's an interesting segue to, you mentioned you started looking at perfumery in like 2019 and you previously had not really been a fan of perfumery because you felt that it didn't match your expectations, but what did that actual journey look like for you from going like, I want to smell what I want to smell to, well, I guess I'm a brand now. Ember: Yeah. Thank I was really interested in it and really not to make a brand necessarily, because I didn't know if I would ever make anything that other people would want to buy. But I just kind of wanted to make something that I wanted to smell like, because I was tired of not having a fragrance that I liked, really. I did like a lot of indie fragrances, but they just weren't exactly what I wanted. And so, like I said, there's a really not a lot of information about perfumery online and there was even less when I first started. ⁓ We did have Sam Mercer and we did have Base Notes and I think we had DIY Fragrance on Reddit as well and through there I managed to find a Discord server full of ⁓ other perfumers that I would ask questions to and get advice from. Really a lot of the ⁓ way that I learned perfumery was to get in touch with other indie perfumers online. ⁓ Other than that, I would probably be like helplessly blending chemicals together and maybe making bad tinctures or using fragrance oils or something like that, you know? Michy: you we talked about how ⁓ your fragrances have dreamlike state to them. Do you think that people are comfortable with ⁓ ambiguity in their ⁓ or ⁓ do think it's, do you think it'd be challenging for some people to not have sort of ⁓ a direct ⁓ of this what I'm smelling? Ember: I think, you know, ⁓ personally, I like to put notes in there that are what I smell when I finish the perfume. ⁓ So, you know, because most people can't smell my perfumes in real life before they sample them or buy them. ⁓ But I do think that a lot of people are like really harping in on notes, especially I like these notes and I don't like these notes types of things. Michy: Mm-hmm. Ember: because every perfumer is gonna do those differently. ⁓ I know a lot of people don't like lavender, but they will like lavender in some perfumes. I like to tell them, know, like either, there's so many different types of lavender and they all, surprisingly, they all smell incredibly different. Like a spike lavender and Bulgarian lavender smell like two completely different materials. ⁓ Michy: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ember: And really what's more helpful than looking at notes is to look at the perfumer. If you find a perfumer who has a style that you like, then they could probably make almost anything smell good to you. Josh: I think that speaks a lot to like perfumer DNA. ⁓ talked about it on a few episodes where if you're someone who ⁓ and kind of collects and experiences as many perfumes as some of us do, you do hone your nose to pick up on that, that unique style. Like I can pick up an Anton Lay perfume and be like, ⁓ I know who did this. ⁓ Similarly, you can pick up any Hoshigato perfume and you're like, ⁓ okay, I know where I'm at. Ember: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Josh: because you have a very distinctive thumbprint that you bring to your perfumes. And to your point, I will trust a white floral by Anton Lay before I trust a white floral from any Sephora brand. White florals are one of those categories that's really hard for me, but I will still smell it because if anyone's gonna do it right, it's gonna be someone that I like their style of perfume. Ember: Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Michy: Yeah, I agree. think for me, the the copy and the perfumer tell me more about a fragrance than any notes will. And I will say this until I'm blue in the face. I will tell people that notes are just the marketing. ⁓ But I think you need to go into fragrance with an open mind and not think I'm not going to smell that because it has rose and I don't like rose. think once you allow yourself to to just say, well, what if I just smell it just so that I know? Ember: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think ⁓ there are a lot of people who just aren't open to ⁓ trying perfumes that have one of their death notes in it, you know, and Michy: I'll know for sure I don't like it. Once you start doing that, it really opens your eyes to so many different things to the point where like, I think with the exception of blood notes, there is not a single note in fragrance where I would say, I don't like that. Josh: Mm-hmm. Ember: You know, as for me, I don't really even have time to wear perfumes a lot of the time because I'm either working with aroma chemicals and I have to be like scent neutral or, you know, I'm like working on my stuff in my house and I don't feel like it, but I'll buy a perfume because it smells or it seems like it smells interesting. ⁓ Just because I want to expand my mind and my palette a little bit. rarely do I ever buy something because I think I want to wear it like outside. I just smell it. Buy it because I want to smell it really. And I think people, I mean, I know, you know, the economy is really bad right now. So people want to buy something that they think is a guarantee they're going to like it, you know. Although I also think that the description of the feel of the fragrance is way more ⁓ important and like indicative of how it smells than like the notes because I could make a sour strawberry note or like a really sweet patchouli note and somebody else might make like a really earthy herbal patchouli or like a super sweet syrupy strawberry you never know. Josh: Yeah, I do try to, when I'm describing a fragrance that I'm smelling, I do try to add those qualifiers and those sensibilities to it. Cause I just said white florals are really tough for me. I often get like cat piss bubble gum from Tuba Rose. But that's also why I don't do like first reactions to fragrances. Cause I'll be like, nope, cat piss. But I keep going back to it because I can still smell everything else in the framework and I can be like, okay, well. Ember: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Michy: Okay. Josh: If this did smell like a lovely endolic white floral to me, I see how this whole picture comes together now. It's not for me, but I can tell who would resonate with this fragrance because it has these endolic notes and these really sweet bass tones that compliment it. Ember: Okay. Mm-hmm. That's another thing I often think that, ⁓ well, I see a lot in like fragrance snark TikTok where people will be like, I smelled that perfume and it smelled like shit actually. I think they might be lying as to what the notes in that perfume are. How do they lie about the notes? And it's like, just because you can't smell the note doesn't mean it's not like what the perfumer intended it to smell like. Michy: You Josh: Yeah. I do love, as I like show people who aren't like super into perfume stuff, I love when they tell me that they get something that like I don't have a reference for in the perfume, the copy doesn't have, the notes don't have. Like that's one of my favorite things. ⁓ I loved Sweet Ash by Sniff. I wore it quite a lot. My ex-husband was like, that smells like pineapple. And I was like, what do you mean? Ember: Mm-hmm. Michy: Mm-hmm. Pineapple. Ember: Unapple does have kind of like a metallic thing to it. Josh: And ⁓ I had to sit and I was like, vanilla, oakmoss, juniper. Okay, so like sharp and sweet. Okay, now I can construct like where you're getting pineapple. And it's like a fun exercise. It's like Dada almost. It's like an unfinished drawing where you're like, do you see? Yeah, I love when people don't smell the notes because it gives you such a cool insight into the way they perceive fragrance. Ember: Mm-hmm. Michy: Yeah. Ember: Yeah, like perfumery chemicals like there's there's often like tens of maybe sometimes even like a hundred or so chemicals in a perfume and Your nose can be like super sensitive to some of them and pick up on like Way differently than how somebody else picks up on it like Some people come up to me and they asked me about ⁓ you know, it smells like there's this in one of your perfumes. I just, can't understand why, because it's not in the notes. I don't understand it's not in the notes. And I'll be like, which of my chemicals could possibly have given that impression? And you know, even with aroma chemicals, I often talk to other perfumers about like the weird connotations we have when we smell them, like aldehyde C6 smells like expired Slim Jims to me, because Josh: Yeah. Ember: I don't know why, like every single, like I love some gyms. I love them for breakfast, especially like I used to be a line cook. So that was like my breakfast all the time. And I have on multiple occasions gotten an expired one. So that's just like what it reminds me of. Michy: Yeah. Yeah, always when I'm when I'm like smelling through things with a customer, my philosophy is like, if you smell it, then yeah, then that's what it is. I'm not going to try to convince you of otherwise, because if that's what your nose is getting, that's totally fine. It's not for you or you love it. Let's go. You know, Ember: Yeah. they view fragrances very like set in stone, you know, like when I was talking about dupes and how, you know, I was really upset that one of my friends had his fragrances duped, ⁓ like a small indie which, you know, should be safe from that kind of thing. She had his fragrances duped. I got so many comments from people being like, well, you can't copyright a smell. It's just a smell. ⁓ You don't own it. Like, how do you even own a smell? And it's like, you don't know what goes into doing that. It's not just like putting the strawberry in and the grass in and the patchouli in. It's like building those things up chemical by chemical in your own special way. It's not like a, and the notes aren't even real. It's just like what you think when you smell it. So it's just like, what you're doing is you're smelling Michy: Yeah. Ember: a big vat of chemicals diluted in alcohol and saying, that reminds me of this. And so, I mean, if it reminds you of something, then that's how it works. So your brain works. Michy: It makes me really sad that an indie brand is getting duped. That's space that I want to be kept safe from all of that. I'm personally somebody who doesn't purchase dupes, but I can understand the affordability conversation and don't discredit that at all. But indie work... Ember: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Michy: I think should be protected. I mean, all perfumery should be protected, but indie work especially, I feel very protective over. Ember: you. Josh: I am on the other fence. I am staunchly against dupes. If you can't afford the real thing, buy a good cheap fragrance. There are plenty of them out there. Ember: Mm-hmm. Michy: There are, there are so many good cheap frequencies out there. I agree. Ember: Yeah, the way that I view I know there's like a huge portion of the fragrance community who just view it as this smells good and I want to smell good and that's all I don't care about anything else. ⁓ Although me as like an artist I buy perfumes from small like independent perfumery houses only. I don't buy perfumes from like big brands because I want to feel connected to the art and that's the only thing that I want like Michy: Mm-hmm. Ember: If I can't afford a fragrance from a certain brand, then I'm like, man, I'm sure it smells really good. I wish I could smell it, but I'm not going to try to steal this person's work. You know, just going to respect that. You know, it's not for me at this point in time, maybe in the future. And so, yeah, it doesn't have any use for me if I'm not getting it from the artist, you know, don't really have that connection to the art. Michy: Yeah, I feel the same way. Josh: think it was Elsie that compared it to ⁓ when she said she hates bad art. And it was the idea of ⁓ your parents buying the fake Thomas Kinkade that doesn't even have any gesso on it. And it's that idea of if you can't afford a Ram brand, that's fine. Most of us can't. But that doesn't mean you can't find a cool artist at your local street market that's doing cool paintings. Ember: Yeah, and that was like one of the top comments on the videos that I've made about dupes and how I don't personally, you know, buy them because I think that they're still in art. People are like, well, what do you expect us to just spend $500 on a fragrance? And I'm like, I have never done that. I have never spent that much money on a perfume. Michy: No. Yeah. I do not Ember: If there's a fragrance out there that's $500, I'm just like, good for them. know, it's not for me. I'll find another artist to support, you know, with the amount of money that I can afford to buy things. And there are so many indie perfumeries that are affordable and I have just never had a problem shopping within my budget. Michy: of Bulgaria. Yeah, there's never been a fragrance that was $500 that I was like, ⁓ I absolutely need this. Josh: Yeah, I mean. Michy: $500 figures has never made me cry Josh: I'll revisit the Siren song of the Pluto fragrance at Stell with that glass bottle and the solid brass hardware. With the like $1400... Michy: ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Josh: Grazy, I mean, but it it's not the perfume it's like the art piece the like one of one glass bottle the like Hand-machined hardware like there's so much that goes into that and even as someone who has ⁓ a substantial perfume budget I was like, ⁓ I can't do this And I didn't immediately go well, let me go find a dupe of this fragrance. I was like That is an art form that I can appreciate from afar Ember: Yeah. Michy: Mm-mm. Ember: you Michy: Yeah. Ember: Especially with that bottle. You can't do that. Michy: Yeah, 1511 is a total outlier when I think I talk about these things because there are other fragrances in that price range that do not have even half of the uniqueness or half of the artistry behind everything about the brand, right? Like they are individual, know, one of a kind hand gloss glass. hand-blown glass bottles. ⁓ The formulas are incredible. They're using the highest quality ingredients. And then in compared to a brand that, and I won't name names, but a luxury brand ⁓ that has... Ember: So. Josh: Name them. Do it. Michy: It's Roja. ⁓ That has fragrances and listen, I love a lot of Roja fragrances. I love Lost in Paris so, so much. I will never spend $1,300 on that fragrance because there's nothing about that fragrance that justifies that price tag for me. That is a price tag that is just to ice out anybody who can't afford it. And that to me is very different than Ember: Mm-hmm. Michy: You know, an indie artist who has very slim margins, who's making a fragrance that's $200, but using the best quality ingredients that they can get and putting their heart and soul into something. You know, to me, those things are wildly different. Ember: Yeah, and I think, you know, even hearkening back to the part about my branding and what that says, there are perfumers who want to charge a lot of money because that gives them prestige, you know, like just the price tag itself makes them seem higher quality. ⁓ When there are, you know, a lot of really, really affordable, like downright cheap indie brands that are the same quality. Michy: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Ember: And, ⁓ you know, I'm in the beginner forums a lot, at r slash DIY fragrance, and there, every single day there's somebody posting, I would like to make a high quality luxury perfume brand. And I would like to do it in two months. And it's like, Michy: Yeah. Josh: Okay. Ember: It's like they put more effort into the branding and like the aesthetic and that words that they're going to use to describe the perfume to sell them for that price than they will into actually working to make the perfume. And, you know, I would expect somebody who's selling a $400 perfume to have had 10 years of experience or something like that, you know, like you're paying for the amount of labor somebody has put into the art themselves, you know. Michy: Yeah. And I don't think that they realized that we could see right through that. Like if that is immediately apparent. I mean, maybe to us because we smell hundreds and hundreds of fragrances. But yeah, when it's just a money grab, it's very, very obvious to me. Ember: Mm-hmm. Josh: Yeah, I think, and this is probably a whole episode we could do at some point, but the idea of luxury and perfume is such an interesting topic because like... of people want the vision and price point and appearance of what they think luxury is ⁓ delivering a true luxury product. Michy: Mm-hmm. I'll say just this point. I if we look to fashion and we look to the quality of where the luxury fashion brands are right now, their quality has gone significantly down over the years. Prices keep rising, right? ⁓ And I will point back to the I always point back to that ruin everything, ruin the party all the time. ⁓ Ember: Yeah. Please. Michy: private equity venture capital, the evil overlords. And it's taking over the fragrance industry. And I think that's why we are so in love with Indie because it's not quite got its hands on Indie yet. It does in some aspects that most people are maybe not as aware of. But once they take over and once they own everything, the quality of everything goes to shit. Josh: evidence. Ember: It's just, yeah. Michy: And that's, think why we're seeing the, you know, the, the quality of designer fragrances decrease. It's happening to niche. We talked about this a lot with the guys with style. it's, they will bleed it dry at some point, but I digress. We'll get into a whole episode about that. Ember: Yeah. I would love to talk about it, although I'm not really ⁓ into the luxury fragrance brands, like I said, I shop at like small, very small Indies, single owner, never really been in a big ass store or anything like that type of fragrances, but I do have a lot to say about the way that I see it going. Michy: Yeah. Ember: as somebody who sees a lot of people who are getting into this art form for the wrong reasons. Michy: Yeah. Yeah. I see that. Josh: I think people are seeing it as a cash opportunity and not as an art form. Michy: Hmm. Ember: And it's not. It is so not. Josh: And I think that's one of the things I, yeah, I think that's one of the things I really appreciate you in your social media presence is you are a business owner, you are a perfumer, but you're also a steward of the community. You're so transparent with educating people, getting people interested, talking about things that have gone wrong for you along the way. And it's really commendable because I think a lot of people have this vision of like, you have to go through the hardships yourself. You have to figure it out on your own. Michy: Mm-hmm. Ember: And it is like that in the perfumery community as well. Like when I first started, I was on bass notes and I would ask questions like, what makes a blue musk a core? Like what chemicals are in that? And I would get answers like, notes aren't real and blue musk isn't a real thing. And I'm like, I know, but just tell me what the smell is, Josh: But we both know what we're talking about, so you could tell me. Yeah. Ember: Yeah, like, we just dropped the bullshit for five seconds, I understand. And, you know, I kind of understand it sometimes, like, in there are people who ask the same questions over and over again in these forums, and then people start being like, just just search, but I do search. I always search the subreddit or the forum before I ask questions. So I know for a fact that I'm the first person to ask this question. Michy: you Ember: or the first person to do it in five years. just trust that I know when I do it. Michy: Hehehehe Josh: Right. Michy: No, I agree with Josh that, you know, I love the education that you're bringing to the community. And that can be a double-sided thing because I think you have a lot of appreciation from a lot of people. You also get a lot of hate from people when you educate them and tell them the truth about the fragrance industry. Yeah. Ember: Sometimes. Especially the most controversial thing I've ever said is with dupes. I think, you know, sometimes people on TikTok just don't, they're not able to comprehend more than 30 seconds of information and my videos are often way longer than that. So like, you know, I would never say, yes, you do have to buy the $500 perfume. Okay, I'm forcing you to do this. More like, Michy: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Ember: There are several indie brands that have really high quality stuff and they don't charge a shit ton of money. And you know, don't have to buy all of your perfumes from Sephora or another place. You can, you know, shop around and, you know, experience fragrance as an art. But also I'm not the cops. Like I'm not going to force you to do anything you don't want to do. I'm just saying from an ethical perspective. And I think I am correct that it is stolen art. Like it's just definitionally stolen art. So. Michy: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, it goes back to like the affordable affordability of it. And it's like, yes, you do deserve to smell good. Yes, if you like something you do deserve to be able to smell like it if that's you want to want it to do. But we just want you to know that there's other options out there. It doesn't have to just be a dupe. ⁓ And, you know, frankly, Ember: And they get mad at you for saying that. They get mad because you're correct. Josh: you Ember: you Michy: You're spending so much money on purchasing so many dupes that you probably could have just bought the one bottle of something you really loved versus trying, Ember: Okay. Sometimes people are addicted to those dupes. So many people have shelves full of just this one dupe brand. Michy: Yeah. And, and there's so so many of them are so repetitive. Like I it's why I really stopped ordering ⁓ like more affordable fragrances, like more like on TikTok shop, because I'm like, if I order one more fragrance that has a completely different like description and note breakdown, and it shows up and it just fucking smells like Angel Share, I'm gonna lose my shit. Ember: Yeah, I do think that there's a lot of scams on the TikTok shop when it comes to fragrance, like just so many ones that are so obvious to me because I know how perfumes are made. But like to people who, you know, I mean, what they're doing looks legit, you know, like they're putting things in a beaker and it looks cool. And, you know, the way that they're marketing it is what a lot of people expect from perfumery. But Michy: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ember: When I see it, I just see somebody who's never made a perfume in their life and probably just ordered a prefab oil off of AliExpress. Michy: Yeah, and it's dangerous too. We don't know what's going into that. could, ⁓ God, yeah, that is, whoo. Josh: One of the things we were talking about early on that I do want to hone in on a little bit more was you mentioned that like some people don't view your brand as serious work because you want to express yourself this kind of joy and whimsy that you bring to perfumery. And it sounds like you are kind of changing your branding a little bit to streamline it. But I think that's also such a strength of your brand because you show up authentically as you. ⁓ When someone looks at you and the way you present yourself, then they look at one of your bottles, they're like, yeah, okay, that makes sense. And I appreciate that so much, even though it's not, we don't really share an aesthetic, I would say. ⁓ But I know who your perfume is meant to resonate with and who that branding resonates with. And it just fills me with joy. Because we're allowed to be fun. Not everything has to be sex and gold and diamonds. Ember: Mm-hmm. Michy: Yeah. ⁓ Ember: Yeah. Yeah. Michy: Yeah. Ember: Yeah. And you know, it's ⁓ funny because I was going to do more of like a goth aesthetic brand because I was going to make perfumes based on the music that I was listening to. And I mostly listened to like Midwest emo and like post hardcore music. And I know I don't look like it, but you know, and I was going to do the whole gothy witchy aesthetic thing. But then I thought, you know, that's never how I draw. And I'm like my illustrative aesthetic is so how would I design a brand by myself if I couldn't do it? And it's just not a natural aesthetic for me at all visually. So I just decided I'm just gonna make it cute and colorful because that's what I know how to do. Michy: Yeah. Yeah. Josh: I mean, there is like the Venn diagram of like the goth Lolita in Kauai. But then also like, I dare you to find a single goth girl in the world that doesn't have a Sanrio plush in her room. Ember: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ⁓ yeah, that's the type of emo that I am is that I liked the Invader Zim and ⁓ Sanrio cute little things in my wardrobe. with my, yeah. With my rebrand, don't want to scare people because it is, she's doing a wonderful job, my designer, at capturing the Sanrio aesthetic. I think that I'm a little bit kitschy. Josh: Yeah, we would have skipped gym class together. We would have gotten along. ⁓ Michy: The key. Ember: naturally with my design aesthetic and she kind of brought it into like cute Sanrio like traditional ⁓ in some nostalgic elements like Polly Pocket type of thing that we're bringing in there and she's making a lot of room for my illustrations because she's like you're good at drawing so you should put your drawings in the box so I'm gonna do that more. Michy: ⁓ it's so exciting. Josh: I love that. I think there are brands that have that kind of cute DIY aesthetic that do it very well. I think you're in there, Pear Fat, Cirrus does a lot of her own drawings. And there are brands that I don't think have executed it as well. And I'm not gonna try to drag them because they're still lovely independent brands. I will say what's the one we, everyone jokes about it. So don't feel bad calling it up. The marshmallow one with like the weird clip art. Ember: ⁓ I love the haircut. Michy: ⁓ yeah, kais, kais, yeah. Ember: I see. I don't know how it's pronounced. I do have a perfume from them that I really like. think it's... Josh: I've smelled a few of their perfumes and they're excellent. I can't, I cannot get past the clip art. Yeah, I hate it. I'm sorry. Yeah, like. Michy: They are. Ember: So now that freezes. Michy: Yep, yeah. I have the marshmallow one somewhere. Ember: And everybody has the marshmallow one. I have this one. I don't even know if this is a thing anymore, but I liked this one. It's like a strawberry tea, milk tea cake thingy. Josh: Yeah. Michy: I think they're so, see, I'm all about intention and what the design is. And I feel like they intentionally want it to be cringy and weird and cliparty. And I'm okay with it. Ember: You I think, you know, I think there are some people who are just like, you know what, the only art that I'm good at is the art that goes in the bottle and everything else, you know, you're on your own with that one, just deal with it. Michy: Yeah. and that is authentically them and I'm okay with that. Josh: Yeah, that is one of the brands where I'm like, I know their fragrances are so good, I cannot bring myself past that graphic design is my passion level of label. Michy: You Ember: I love how they put little faces on the marshmallows. Michy: That was great! Josh: ⁓ But like a lot of the other like purposefully cute very self-done branding it does read because it's authentic. That was my original point not to shrunk ice. And I just I really appreciate that you hold on to that especially because the industry pushes so hard for you to come off as polished as luxury. Ember: Bye. Josh: as desirable. Michy: Mm-hmm. Ember: Yeah, and I do. I feel like a lot of pressure from people to not like from my customers, because my customers really like my branding, but I just kind of have imposter syndrome. I don't really believe that people like the stuff that I put out, like the look of it, because it feels like whenever I step outside of my community, the people who like my stuff. people are like, oh, that looks like it's for children. And then maybe you shouldn't be marketing perfumes to children. oh. I actually asked the marketing subreddit one time and God dang, I hate going on there. The branding, I don't know why I keep doing it. The branding subreddit and I was like asking for advice on how to like design my box. Cause there was like a couple of different options I was going with. was like, which one do you guys like? Michy: Yeah. Josh: You Ember: And they said, why are you basically marketing cigarettes to children? They're like, should you really be making a cute box for your perfumes? I mean, that's kind of what cigarette companies in the 50s did. And I was like, OK, enough Reddit for today. Josh: You Michy: Calm down. ⁓ boy. Josh: Yeah, no, because I think they're, I mean, the whole initial ethos we had with wanting to talk with you and with some other similar brands is that whimsy has a seriousness to it and it has a distinct place and value in this community. Because especially as the world continues to spin into oblivion, we need whimsy, we need joy. Ember: Yeah. And you know, it's like a cultural thing too, because in other cultures, the things that I like are not considered like strictly for children. Like ⁓ my stepmom is from China and I remember when she first came over to America, she had Hello Kitty everything. And that was like, and that was not a childish thing for her. That was just trendy, like an adult trendy thing to have is like Hello Kitty stuff. And I was like, okay, so like. Michy: Mm-hmm. Ember: Yeah, you can be an adult and like cute things. It's just like not normal here for some reason. Michy: you think people connect differently with ⁓ when they feel more like a mood than a concept? Ember: I think there are a lot of people who wear perfumes like based on their mood. ⁓ For me, sometimes I'll wear it based on like, you know, my outfit aesthetic for that day, you know, there are a lot of different ways that you can like style yourself and perfumes can be a really big part of that. ⁓ I know that for on the Indie Makeup and More subreddit, which is where I first discovered Indie Perfumes, ⁓ They often talk about, know, my cat just died or I'm going through a really hard time. Can you guys help me find a fragrance that smells like this? Because it would really help. You know, I just want to smell something that's very comforting for me. So I think a lot of people turn to smell as a way to like feel better. Josh: So moving towards our closing ritual, ⁓ what does joy smell like to you? Ember: I always thought that, you know, I have, I never really made a fragrance based on like a sad memory that I have. I always make something that brings joy to me, you know, like it fruity is like Saturday morning cartoon cereal time. And even fragrances I have that are a little bit darker, you know, like creep, it was actually a happy memory that I have. Even though it's kind of like a rainy depressing graveyard for some people. It's like a good memory for me. ⁓ So really for me, it's just like happy memories or happy places that I like to be in. know, my state stuff that reminds me of like corn or, you know, now that I'm in Washington, I want to make a smoky mountain perfume because it smells really nice out here. And yeah, you know, I always try to make something that's uplifts me and makes me feel high energy and not something that makes me feel sad. Josh: love that, especially because one of my favorite perfumes by you is melancholy. Ember: Yeah. And it does have a sad name, but actually I made it ⁓ for my husband. So it is a really happy perfume for me. ⁓ It's one of my most expensive perfumes to make because I put a lot of like nice stuff in there for him. Like tube rose absolutes and tobacco absolute and stuff like that. And ⁓ actually surprisingly, he likes the recluse more than that one. But I think. Josh: Bye. Michy: Yeah. Ember: Melancholy is like closer to the perfumes he wore when we first got together, but like a little bit more, less mainstream, a little bit special. Josh: It's a really interesting blend and I do love fruity because like cereal is kind of having a moment in perfumery, milk and cereal perfumes. ⁓ But fruity, like it's so photo realistically captures fruit loops. It was astonishing. ⁓ Ember: Mm-hmm. Michy: Mm-hmm. I don't think, and there's been several that have come out and I don't think any of them have done it nearly as well as you have. Ember: That's kind of like what I wanted to do with it is either, well, I never smelled any mainstream perfumes that smelled like cereal, but I know that there are a lot of like fragrance oil brands that have it, but the fragrance oils that smell like Froot Loops are just like super toppy. They don't last very long and they really aren't made for wearing on the skin. And ⁓ when I realized that like, Michy: Mm-hmm. Ember: citral and lima lule and stuff together makes Froot Loops. I was like, okay, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna make a good version of this perfume that lasts a long time so people can wear Froot Loops all day. Michy: Yeah, the mainstream brands will never admit it, but I feel like you ignited the Fruit Loop cereal milk feeling again. No, because I mean, when did Fruity come out? Ember: There's no way. 2024. Michy: Yeah, and it's just now, brands are releasing this, this whole. Ember: I think that people have always wanted like a serial type of moment, like before, you know, like what I said in 2019, I don't think that a lot of brands had like the permission to go outside the box that they do now. I think a lot of them are just now getting like, okay, you can get a little bit whimsical with it. You know, we, there's a lot of indie brands out now. People are all over the internet asking for weird stuff. So you can get a little weird with it now, you know. Michy: Yeah. Mm-mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ember: keep up with the trends. And I think people have always wanted a fragrance like that that wasn't like, you know, made with fragrance oil, but bigger companies just haven't been allowed to do it because, yeah, you're only allowed to make this fragrance for the rest of your life because you work for us. Michy: Yeah, and that's it. I can tell you that what Joy is smelling like to me right now and that is 100 % beach peach. I can't stop smelling this one. ⁓ It reminds me of like, it feels like my teeth are sticking together eating like sour peach rings at the beach as a kid and I love this so much. Ember: Yeah. I love beachy peach, just like one of the only two fragrances that I liked as a child were like really fruity, like strawberry, ⁓ sweet body spray perfumes and like body tan lotion that my babysitter used to wear. So like there was a sun tan place near my house and my babysitter would always go there and get like drenched head to toe in like the ⁓ whatever Coca-cabana sun tan oil. Michy: Yeah. Ugh. Ember: and then come back home to babysit us and like play video games and I was like, man, that smells Michy: What kind of feelings are you trying to ⁓ evoke in your work? Ember: I think that ⁓ for the most part when I smell my perfumes or when I'm making them, I just feel really happy. And I think I want other people to smell them and be like, ⁓ my God, this reminds me of like when I was a kid and I was smelling Froot Loops or when ⁓ I was a teenager and I was really moody and I'd always hang out in the graveyard and stuff like that. So nostalgic stuff mostly and happiness and you know. Michy: you Ember: confidence, you know, because I like being able to smell like me and not, you know, like how everybody else wants me to smell. Josh: And is there anything ⁓ upcoming, exciting that you want to plug and let people know about? Ember: Actually, yes. I'm going to have a charity fragrance event in June, second week of June. This is the second time we're doing it. It's called Hoshigatothon and we're going to have a charity box set of fragrance with my brand, the Alloy Studio, which is also a really awesome perfume brand. Two other really awesome up and coming perfume brands, Maison des Animaux, I think that's how it's pronounced. I do not speak French. Michy: Mm-hmm. Ember: and BRX SMT, I think it's pronounced. I don't think he's really launched yet in earnest, but he's going to give me some fragrances and a hundred percent of the proceeds, actually a hundred percent of the entire cost, cause we got the cost donated. So the a hundred percent goes to charity. And then also if you donate to any of our charities, then you get 20 % off any fragrance. Michy: Awesome. Amazing. I love that. Hell yeah. That's amazing. We love Alloy Studio too. We're actually talking with them next week as well. yeah, we love them. Josh: That's awesome. Ember: and see you in group. Yeah, I heard that. I've tried a lot of fragrance brands and I really, really like them. I think that they're actually doing something really unique. And so I'm happy that they're seeing a lot of success. And also I'm happy that they're participating in Hoshigatothon because I really like their perfumes. Michy: Yay, awesome. can you tell people ⁓ where they can go to find out about Hoshigatothon, where they can find your fragrances, where they can find you on socials? Ember: Yeah, so hoshigato.com, or h-o-s-h-i-g-a-t-o.com. ⁓ I'm currently, you're going to see a banner at the top of the website that says, if you see anything weird, it's because I'm working on Hoshigato-thon, you know, because I'm doing a little test products and stuff like that. So I haven't put it up on the website yet. I'm still working on it on the backend. ⁓ But yeah, we're going to have ⁓ free prizes and stuff. ⁓ Maison des Animaux is donating some fragrances. And also, I forgot to mention, the grand prize for the customers will be a custom fragrance made by me. So that's the first time I'm ever gonna do it. So to raise money for charity, I will give away tens, perhaps even hundreds of hours of my labor. And yeah, we're gonna have... Michy: Hell yeah. It's incredibly generous. Ember: prizes and stuff and you can follow me on TikTok. I believe Hoshi, either Hoshi.gato or Hoshi.gato. I'm not sure. Hold on, let look at my business card. Okay, yeah. TikTok and Instagram are Hoshi.gato and YouTube is just Hoshi.gato, no dots, no underscores. And yeah, those are the three platforms that I'm on. Michy: Hehehehehe Ember: besides Reddit, but I don't really ⁓ do advertising on Reddit. I just reply to people's posts on DIY fragrance. Josh: Thanks. Michy: Shhh! Josh: You Thank you so much, Ember, for joining us tonight. It's been real ⁓ And if enjoyed this ⁓ conversation and wanna hear more like it, please remember to like subscribe. It really helps us reach more audiences. Thank you so much and we'll see you next time. Ember: Okay. Michy: Thank you. We love you. Bye. Josh: Bye.