Arabelle Sicardi: one of the things that people ⁓ continuously misunderstand how beauty narratives are formed is that they ⁓ kind of dismiss how integrated beauty industry is to ⁓ other aspects life. It is fundamentally ⁓ implicated ⁓ our chains around the world. that are also linked to pharmaceuticals. They're also linked to other forms of wellness, not just perfumes, but anything you eat. Flavors of your food, intricately linked to the perfume industry and how they're marketed is absolutely linked to how media operates. So perfume is kind of this nexus point of pop culture, gender, politics, socialization, where you're from, where you live, how much money you can afford. what type of story you want to tell about yourself. All of this is important. All of this gives you context. So when people dismiss it, be like, they're just like, ⁓ it's just perfume. They're missing the fact it's linked to every other aspect of their life. They're only seeing one side of a story that's much bigger than they understand. Michy: Yeah. Yeah. I had a light bulb moment listening to your audio book the other day with you and you mentioned the connection between pharmaceuticals and the beauty industry and my my father had cancer and passed away last year and you mentioned that thank you. You mentioned the Arabelle Sicardi: I'm so sorry. Michy: drug, methotrexate, which was the chemotherapy that he was on and how that is banned in the EU in cosmetics, but not banned in the US in cosmetics. And that absolutely blew my mind. I did not expect to have that connection in a book about the beauty industry, but it was, it was a wild ride for me. Arabelle Sicardi: Yeah, well, I'm sorry you had to endure my voice and that whole thing. But yeah, all things are delicately interconnected and the things we put on our body and the things that we put in it are obviously sisters, often twins. Michy: ⁓ my god, no. Yeah, incredible. Arabelle, thank you so much for joining us today. Would you introduce yourself for our audience? Arabelle Sicardi: Of course. Hi everybody, friends and enemies. ⁓ My name is Arabelle Sikardi and I am a beauty writer. I guess you could say I'm a beauty world builder. I wrote a book called The House of Beauty, which came out in hard cover in October 2025 and is coming out in paperback later on this year, also in October. And I... run a non-profit that archives nail art history called the Museum of Nails Foundation and also a sense-centered collective called Perfumed Pages and we do nose trainings and perfume swaps and other things that I feel like hosting, hybrid, online and in person. So it's nice to meet you all. Josh: ⁓ as you you've spent years writing about beauty as a culture and not just as products or just as a business. When you look at fragrance specifically, what are ⁓ some of patterns ⁓ from the beauty world that you see showing up most clearly? Arabelle Sicardi: Mm-hmm. I think fragrance is a great litmus test to ideas of gender and conservatism right now. And you can see that in both how like how much stuff we consume right now and the expectations of how much stuff you should have or consume. You also see it in like the influencers that get the biggest deals or the biggest followings in fragrance talk. think fragrance talk is an incredible study. an anthropological study on toxic masculinity and how we don't believe women. I think 100 % it is incredible ⁓ who is revered and who gets no views whatsoever within that atmosphere. It's fascinating to me. ⁓ Yeah, I mean, there's just there's so much going on. I also find it really fascinating now that there's Michy: Thank Arabelle Sicardi: this, I guess it would be a micro trend right now about solar fragrances, this idea of sun themed fragrances. And I feel like there's so much obsession over like climate related fragrances because the climate is literally dying. And this is something that I've talked about with other, with perfumers as well. Like a lot of really niche indie perfumers are are creating work kind of as a way to articulate their own kind of climate grief. These are not, you know, fragrance house heavy hitter, like, quote unquote, master perfumers. These are the indies that are building fragrances out of their garages to distribute. And I consider them cutting edge. And these people are really going through stuff around, around the planet. And I'm like, I'm with you. Thank you for doing this. Michy: Thank Yeah. Josh: Yeah, I think of like Agar.l Factory, you know, their kind of whole story of that collection is around the ecological collapse of the world and this lens through which it could be these alternate presence and futures. ⁓ Arabelle Sicardi: Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes, 100 % Augustine genius. Love them. Michy: I just picked up cereal too. Arabelle Sicardi: Yeah, I got the Discovery set literally like a foot away from me. I've been obsessively returning to it the past couple of weeks. Michy: Yeah I know it's supposed to make me think about the end of the world, cereal just reminds me of my kids when they were babies, eating dry Cheerios. Arabelle Sicardi: I love that though, and when you're contemplating the end of the world, don't you kind of want to just be surrounded by the people you love anyway? Like the world flashing in front of you, like you want love more than you want the devastation, so that makes total sense to me. Michy: Yeah. Josh: not that we needed a tangent on end of the world perfumes, but I do think about, ⁓ flood by Fisher soon. ⁓ I had the immense privilege of seeing the flood installation in Reykjavik and smelling the perfume and feeling the thunder and seeing that in like the immersive experience, we ended up being in there for probably 45 minutes and, ⁓ something about a perfume that Michy: ⁓ yeah. Arabelle Sicardi: You Ugh, yeah. I'm so jealous. Josh: tells the story of the world drowning so incredibly beautifully and so moving. And I love any form of immersive art. I went to all of his other exhibits in the museum. It's just in awe. Yeah, we have a lot of apocalyptic perfumes and they're all pretty great, especially now. Arabelle Sicardi: Yeah, I think we're in a apocalyptic renaissance. You know, sorry to say. ⁓ God, yeah, sorry. Vibe killer, my middle name. Josh: Title of the episode. Michy: Certainly in the indie space, but I guess in like the designer, the designer and like mass appealing. It's like sunshine and rainbows and smell like sunscreen and... Arabelle Sicardi: Yeah, I do think that there are more large legacy houses that are doing kind of revival archival references now. Like, Koti did that reissue of like their Amber editions or something pretty recently. And there's something to be said about ⁓ really going into the archive. One, because perhaps you don't see a vision for your future. But two, Michy: Mm-hmm. ⁓ Josh: you Arabelle Sicardi: you're going back to the past because that is the moment, like the moment you were most valued and felt the safest. And I think this kind of self-referential loop is something that a lot of legacy houses get trapped in and is a kind of artistic struggle that I'm seeing both in fashion and in beauty, you know? Like we're kind of trapped by our own nostalgia because we're also trapped by the kind of inability to innovate very often. And I think that's tied to AI and the current like chaos and inundation of AI taking over every possible means of creation and creative output. It's hard to innovate when you're literally being trained not to think. Josh: You know, we were on the Digital Sense Soiree a couple of weeks ago. And one of the trends that I highlighted for the group was I also noticed this renaissance of these legacy and heritage houses pulling out older editions and doing read issues and tweaking older formulas. I thought it was interesting how it's tying into another maybe micro trend that we're seeing around like worn in luxury and like reviving. And it's this interesting play on Arabelle Sicardi: Mm-hmm. Josh: aesthetics of old money in a new way. And I had to consider like, are we doing this because people are facing so much economic scrutiny right now that you wanted to reissue this at an accessible price point so they could feel like they were attached to this idea of what Arabelle Sicardi: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Michy: you Josh: luxury ⁓ Arabelle Sicardi: it's a great question. And I think the answer ⁓ different for so many different luxury houses, right? And some of it is purely that the old additions can no longer be formulated in the ways that they were before because of IFRA and regulations ⁓ banning certain ingredients. And some of that is completely out of their control. ⁓ ⁓ get a regulation you have to adhere. So I give them the grace for that. And that's part of the process of just having a long span of lifetime in which your business is running. And then, but there is also definitely the question of like, how many flankers and reissues and revisions of this one story must you provide? Josh: The ship of Theseus with perfume. Michy: ⁓ Josh: ⁓ Arabelle Sicardi: You know, I have so many Shalamars and I love each and every one of them and I think the new versions are really beautiful. Michy: They are. Arabelle Sicardi: Sometimes you can have new stories, right? And I think it's brave to try something new. I've spoken to the perfumers for Shalimar and I totally see why they revisited the way they did. It felt really architectural, the way that she went methodically into the extraction process that originally happened and elaborated on it. I can understand why they reissued that, but I am speaking to this larger. Michy: Mm-hmm. Arabelle Sicardi: this larger habit of just like, ⁓ we have this one hero fragrance. Now we're going to do every single possible version of this fragrance, possibly also a lip balm and like hair mist and, ⁓ inventing new fragrance categories like, like milks and, ⁓ just, just stuff that we didn't have before. Do we need, I mean, maybe I'm being a hypocrite being like, ⁓ Michy: Yeah. Arabelle Sicardi: there's a lack of invention, suddenly you're inventing too much. Like I understand that there's dissonance in these complaints, but there's also, it's still true. Like do we need a billion trillion products? No. Do we need better products? Yes. Michy: I personally, if I see one more ⁓ leave flanker, I will lose my shit. Arabelle Sicardi: I've besmirched YSL. I've besmirched YSL enough this year. Thank you for the invite. It was a lovely party. I'm sorry that I did not like the fragrances. Michy: It's OK, I'll say the names are building more. Josh: Hahaha Michy: ⁓ It's okay not to like every fragrance that a house puts out. It's okay. Arabelle Sicardi: Totally, you know, it's totally fine. And I think criticism is part of the process. You need to be able to accept criticism as an artist, as a business, as a human being. It helps you get better. Maybe that's just like the Asian auntie in me, but I'm like, no, if I'm too nice, I'm lying. Michy: Yeah, no, I totally agree. And I think we're seeing with a lot of these brands and I can name one in particular right now that I think that they're just so surrounded by super fans and nobody who's willing to just say, no, this is not a good idea that they're starting to collapse their own brand. And I think everybody is so, so desperate to always get on the PR list that they're not willing to be honest. and it doesn't feel like maybe they've hired people that feel comfortable being honest with them either. Josh: You said you can name one, but that sounds like at least a dozen brands. ⁓ Arabelle Sicardi: That's a lot. That's an ex-psychopedia. Let's be real here. Michy: It's... But the one that's coming to mind the most and I've been debating whether or not to post a video about it because I will 100 % get kicked off of their affiliate program. And I do love them dearly, but I am really disappointed in the direction that SNF has gone in the past six months between NoteWorks and now their collaboration with Michaela, which feels... mean, it highlights that they're not... Arabelle Sicardi: Mm. Michy: the indianese brand that we thought they were. They are, you know, they are big money. They are mass market and they're gonna they're they're they're making that money and that controversy sells, you know. ⁓ But it felt for a very long time like they were very involved in the community. And I think this decision that they've these two decisions that they've made have really ⁓ put them at odds with their community. And it's it's upsetting to see because it's a brand that I really genuinely like so much. I think when it comes to fragrance, there feels like there's this disconnect. Why do you think it is or do you think it is that fragrance is treated differently and sort of above like scrutiny and criticism as opposed to other aspects of beauty industry? Arabelle Sicardi: I don't know if I do think that it's treated with less scrutiny than other aspects of the industry. I think right now we're living in a moment in which fragrance, like fragrance heads, like of which you and I, or all of us that are listening are definitely, we are freaks of nature. We are hyper consumers. We are a, we're a percentage of the market. We may not be the whole market. And I'm not sure how much of the hyper obsessive. Michy: Yeah. Arabelle Sicardi: culture is the driving force. think the majority of the consumers aren't perhaps as soaked in the controversies and then the culture and the context of how influencers love or hate a brand for their failings. know, like I would say for me, like, let's use sniff as an example. ⁓ I personally have never checked for sniff. I'm going to be so honest. I like they Michy: Mm-hmm. Arabelle Sicardi: Their fragrances have never particularly spoken to me. ⁓ and I can understand why they chose Michaela because of her, just by the numbers in terms of her platform. This was a money game, right? It was a hundred percent a money game. And if they want to scale, if they want to keep scaling, if they want to get a return on their investments for their investors who would demand a certain return, they need to play the money game in order to do that. And Michaela has numbers to back up. Michy: ⁓ yeah. 100%. Josh: ⁓ absolutely. Arabelle Sicardi: anything that she puts down, right? Compared to a micro niche influencer who may be beloved, right? Who may have an incredible click through rate and incredible high numbers for their particular micro niche. But if you put it in every door that sniff might open, most people would be like, who is this person? It wouldn't make a difference. So for that, I totally understand. ⁓ And for in terms of like, do I think fragrance is like more controversial or whatever than other parts of the beauty industry. I think I see the controversies more as like more rampant simply because I'm in everyone's business in a way that I'm not in other parts of it. Or I'm so used to particular frameworks of disappointment and a corporate level for large conglomerates that have the bunch of different makeup brands or they have. Michy: Yeah. Arabelle Sicardi: large portfolio, I know how that sausage gets made. And so when people get surprised by disappointments, I'm like, you can't, I can't be mad. Everyone I've ever spoken to from this conglomerate sounds like they live in hell every day. So I can't be surprised at the results here. Um, whereas fragrance is, it's a very small community, even if it's a global one, you know, like Michy: Yeah. Yeah. Arabelle Sicardi: At the end of the day, there are the big five fragrance manufacturers, right? And then everyone else outside of that is a different operator, but it's so small in reality. Once you know certain master perfumers or you know the big five houses, ⁓ you kind of know the landscape really quickly. And you know the retailers across the world. If you know that really quickly, you see this labyrinth is not that invisible and everyone in it is a person and a person is fallible. So there's just always going to be gossip. There's always going to be drama, but I don't think the average consumer gets caught up in it as much as I do. Michy: want to know all the tea. ⁓ Arabelle Sicardi: Yeah. Josh: right, was gonna say, like to your point, our audience is not the casual fragrance consumer. ⁓ Arabelle Sicardi: No, we're all freaks and that's great. I love that for us. But I also know that like, you know, like audio discretion is advised. Like most people will not be caught up in the bits and pieces and the lore of each person involved in how they get their fragrance. Michy: Yeah. Josh: One of the topics that kind of came to mind that we wanted to bridge with you was the rise of ⁓ air quotes, clean beauty and then ⁓ natural fragrance realm. ⁓ ⁓ hidden hard and fast. How did the industry become so obsessed with purity? And that has so many different permutations. Arabelle Sicardi: because it got red-pilled into making America healthy again, baby. We went down the wrong chute. We went down the wrong way. ⁓ Yeah, ultimately, the long and short of it is, on an individual level, there's several vegan and clean fragrance and beauty brands that I think do a great job. I mean, I don't have a list of them to provide, but I... Josh: I mean... ⁓ Michy: Hahahaha Mm-hmm. Arabelle Sicardi: think the curation at Credo is great. They know what they're doing there. And there are certainly some fragrance brands that are vegan and have all of these sustainability claims. I'm like, yeah, you also just like makes fundamentally good juice. Like, I love your claims. Love them. I personally could care less at this moment in time. I look at the juice, I see it, and I smell it for what it is. And you can tell me all of the backstory later. ⁓ I think there's a lot of misinformation out there. There's a lot of precarity, particularly America, where people don't have to good healthcare. And so they have, ways ⁓ to try to come to terms with ⁓ their chronic illnesses ⁓ and ⁓ the lack of care that they experience in any way possible. And sometimes that means like they look into endocrine disruptor research of which fragrance is tied to. is research and studies around fragrance being tied to endocrine disruption and this and that. And it's not a lie. It's just a lot of people misinterpret or don't understand the scientific claims or the the lack of depth of fragrance research, honestly, which is always changing where olfactory research as an academic practice in a landscape is really expanding at a rapid pace now. And some of the stuff we know in the past couple of years, we didn't know even five years ago, right? But there's a lot of fear mongering in how we take care of our bodies and what we should put into them and how the things we put on them. affect ourselves. And sometimes people get caught up in a whirlwind of misinformation or bad science interpretations. And that happens in fragrance sometimes. you know, people, people will believe things that confirm their own biases a lot of the times and that happens in fragrance. It happens with, people that don't believe in, you know, the people that are really obsessed with pasteurized milk or non-pasteurized milk. I don't remember, know, and yeah, raw milk and, you know, living on a farm, even though, you know, they've never lived on a farm before. This kind of pathway of conservatism and if I can't pronounce this ingredient, it shouldn't be in my body type of stuff. Like, ⁓ if it's natural, it's... Michy: ⁓ yeah, raw milk. Josh: Yeah. Arabelle Sicardi: the best for me. I'm like, there's plenty of natural poisons, but by all means. Josh: And I think that's an important distinction to use when we talk about the clean beauty and impurity. There are brands that strive to be vegan, that strive to be sustainable, that have very grounded, legitimate claims that they can and should verify. And then there are these other kind of fluff branding and misinformation pieces where it's either misrepresenting science or Arabelle Sicardi: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Josh: blatantly misleading in their marketing to sell on this idea of wellness without actually investing in care. Arabelle Sicardi: Mm-hmm. Yeah, there's there's there a dime a dozen, I would say. And I feel really bad for the average consumer who is expected to take on the role of researcher and FDA, essentially, at any point, because the reality is the industry is almost self regulated in comparison to other places, you know, ⁓ and simply something is available for sale doesn't mean it's safe to use. The amount fragrances I've seen being sold on Etsy that I would never put on my body is large. There's many. And you know, there's Michy: Yes. Arabelle Sicardi: There's very few ways for people to understand the amount of casual danger that's readily available to them. And some of the methods that people use ⁓ to ⁓ understand these things, like the apps that promise, ⁓ you scan the barcode of this, tell everything about it. Some of them are, you know, lobbyists themselves and they make a financial gain or benefit for fear mongering. you or guiding you to specific products. So they're not exactly pure heroes either. It's a hard, it's a hard landscape to navigate. I'm not going to lie. Michy: It is. I think it's a great moment to remind our audience that one of the things that we always recommend because we all of us are huge proponents of the indie fragrance world. But when researching a new indie brand, it is really important to go to their website and make sure that they have IFRA information on their website and make sure that they are IFRA compliant. If they are not IFRA compliant, you should not be putting them on your skin. Period. End of story. Josh: and if you ⁓ find attached and they don't have it for compliance, at least the bare minimum, if you're going to go dangerous path as ingredients and allergen warnings. Michy: Because many natural ingredients ⁓ have Arabelle Sicardi: Absolutely. Josh: As we mentioned in the ⁓ last episode with LC, beautiful, amazing fragrance. ⁓ Mix XXX by Aris has natural amber green and hyrassium in them. As beautiful as it was, I got head to toe hives and had to go get some shots. Arabelle Sicardi: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ⁓ no. Duty is terror, unfortunately. Michy: you Josh: you've a little bit about how, you know, the consumers ⁓ having to their own research often is a losing battle. ⁓ How did end up with, with such a nucleation point and fragrance around natural ingredients, ⁓ this fear synthetics, ⁓ and then, you said, this misrepresentation of porous, mnemon disruptors of pheromones of Arabelle Sicardi: Mm-hmm. Josh: false wellness claims, like there has been so much of it that showed up in the fragrance industry in just a very short period of time. And is it because it's percolating and proliferating through the beauty industry or is fragrance the nucleation point? Arabelle Sicardi: Mm-hmm. because of what's been happening in the larger beauty space, but also just in the larger cultural space. We don't really have an FDA or CDC anymore in America. Like, let's be honest. There's a dead worm in someone's brain and he's telling us we can't get vaccines. not to put a fine point on it, but... Josh: you Arabelle Sicardi: There's not a lot of guidance or regulation in any space regarding bodies, let alone fragrance. So I'm not exactly surprised that the misinformation has trickled down into this particular space either. ⁓ It was going to happen. It's inevitable because it's inundated every other aspect of society, you know? vaccines are getting rolled back or, ⁓ and the national, what fellowship for like science researchers or whatever is being like delegitimized. So, ⁓ yeah, science is becoming a question mark in America and that will inevitably is inevitably reflecting in fragrance because fragrance is a science and a chemistry that relies on manufacturing and. You know, paperwork regarding chemical safety. And if you put question marks around science itself, it will lead to question marks around beauty because beauty is a cosmetic science. So, Michy: It's a downer, guys. It's a downer episode. Arabelle Sicardi: I know, ⁓ god. Josh: It's a series, but we have a really joyous, whimsical series after we destroy everything you love about the industry. Michy: you Arabelle Sicardi: You just gotta make it through. You just gotta endure. Michy: It's important to know these things going in and just set your frame of reference for what's actually happening. It makes it easy to see through the bullshit because a lot of these companies, I mean, they see this happening and they see that people want these clean, non-toxic ingredients and they will throw their money at it because even though nothing has changed about their formula, but they know if they put that unregulated term of clean on their product. Arabelle Sicardi: Mm-hmm. Michy: they will get your money a hell of a lot easier and they will open themselves up to a different audience that maybe they didn't have before. Arabelle Sicardi: Yeah, I think it is really tied into our fear of getting older, ⁓ dismantling of science and healthcare and belief in the fact that these exist. And it's also tied to ⁓ our latest obsession with longevity and longevity and body hacking and stuff like that, which I've written about because Michy: Mm-hmm. Arabelle Sicardi: all these endocrine disruptors and all of these things that are supposed to keep you pure and stuff are just bargaining chips to try and make sure that our bodies are as healthy as possible, right? And as pure as possible. And it's really easy to believe marketing and it's really hard to understand who to trust. The reality is it's never been easier to start a beauty brand. than it is right now, you like you could get an AI generated perfume, like formula and send it off to some filler really quickly and get it done in a matter of literally days and have AI generated to art. Everything AI generated, customer service, AI, head to toe, everything is code. You could have that really quickly. You can even tell it, ⁓ make it a clean beauty brand and it'll make all these promises for you. And it would be easy. It's really easy to be a bad person. You get benefits, you get more benefits for being bad than being good now. That's why there's so many, so much class disparity. So, ⁓ yeah, we're just at an inflection point where we see so much filler right now. And I think. Josh: if Arabelle Sicardi: hyper-consumers are becoming very well-versed in understanding what is filler and what isn't. You you have to be really good at understanding it. And it's something that I talk about with the Stel guys and with like my fragrance group chats all the time. Like when you smell so much fragrance so frequently, you begin to develop like this kind of third, I don't know, sixth sense, sorry, of understanding what has been like AI perfume or not. Michy: Mm-hmm. Arabelle Sicardi: There's just something derivative that you're, just pick up. And I would say like at least eight out of 10 times that I'm like smelling blindly through like a bunch of fragrances. I can pick out the fragrances that are from like some AI filler house. And they aren't from like a person who's like compounded it themselves. And it's you, you're, we're all developing these instincts. You just, it's just a matter of. of honing it in and practicing and understanding what's human and what's not. Michy: Yeah, I think it's it's hard for people who are not as obsessed in the fragrance world as we are to pick up on those those little things that, you know, when we're smelling fragrance for a living, it becomes almost second nature to pick up, you know, when something is, is not, it's it's doesn't have that almost rough, ragged sort of edgy thing that an indie fragrance that somebody actually spent time composing has. ⁓ Arabelle Sicardi: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Michy: But I think for people who are just starting to see the signs, this is why we talk so much about AI in past episodes. If a brand is using a ton of AI images, they might be real fragrances, but there's a hell of a lot higher chance that they are AI fragrances and they are fill bottles. So it's definitely, it is always the first red flag for me. Arabelle Sicardi: Mm-hmm. Yeah, if they're using it where it's visible, they're certainly using it where it's not. Michy: Let's talk a little bit about ⁓ raw So in your book, House of Beauty, you take the reader on a journey through realities of raw ingredient sourcing, ⁓ which I loved the way you structured those chapters, just as an aside. ⁓ But do feel natural ingredients are framed as inherently virtuous? Arabelle Sicardi: Because the history of rare ingredients has so much to do with commodity fetishism and class distinction. the fact that making, I mean, the history of fragrance is all about class. Like fragrances were never really a commodity for all people. Fragrances were made for the bourgeoisie, for emperors, for kings, for people that can afford them as a means to distinguish them from everybody else. historically time and time again that has been true there have been fragrant materials that are available for everybody like you got incense and stuff or for prayer and for rituals and stuff that's absolutely true and they've been around a very long time but the very core materials like like oud like myrrh like ambergris and you know these very expensive ingredients. They've always been expensive and they are the foundation of how these countries and empires became wealthy. They were the traded goods, oftentimes alongside enslaved people. And they were the commodities that were traded along the Silk Road, which was also called the Incense Road and the Spice Road. These were fundamentals to how chain that we know today as a global experience, ⁓ they're to how it was made. So they've always been valuable. They are the foundations of what we even understand as currency. They were expensive and rare before we had even invented Christmas as an idea. They're old as balls. ⁓ And remain ⁓ expensive Josh: No. Arabelle Sicardi: even if they're more easily accessible to the market today. And frankly, they're only going to get more expensive, these natural ingredients, because they're going to disappear soon. We are actively experiencing water bankruptcy as a globe, as a planet. And that is obviously going to affect how we live on a day-to-day life. And it certainly affects the ingredients that are available on the market for every industry, including perfume. ⁓ Sandalwood will probably disappear within the next five years. And there's other ingredients that will disappear, you know, because of climate bankruptcy, perhaps sooner, perhaps less, but we are on a time limit of natural resources. And I don't think most people really understand that, but people that operate in the fragrance industry, the farmers and the producers and the perfumers, they kind of get a up close and personal view because these are there. artist palette, right? And it's changing faster than we can really comprehend. Harvests have collapsed from being, you know, months at a time to like weeks, right? And synthetics are moving at a really hyper speed. Like we have a lot of synthetic ingredients, but, that's great innovation, but it's also innovation because we are in crisis. And at a certain point, and I think it will be within our lifetimes and perhaps sooner than we would want or want to realize are the vanities that we have, the perfumes right in front of us will be wildly different in five years because the ingredients are no longer available. And most people won't really realize that, but that doesn't mean it's not happening. Michy: Yeah. Yeah, it's so interesting to me that, you know, we see synthetics and we see a way to stop, you know, stop destroying our planet for for ingredients, stop ⁓ exploiting people for our ingredients. But to the greater, the greater consumer of fragrances, it's like, no, synthetic bad, Arabelle Sicardi: It is frustrating, ⁓ but I think also, it's great bridge point for conversation. It's a great moment to ⁓ test people's assumptions just be like, why do you think the natural ingredient is better? Who is it better for? Because the reality of these ingredients is like the natural stuff. takes up so much water, it takes up so much natural resource and so much energy. And when you put down the numbers of the cost that it takes to get a certain ingredient, and then you see the synthetic version, the science is usually going to support using the synthetic ingredient almost every single time, right? ⁓ Because it costs the planet less and it costs less water, it costs this, that and other thing less. so I appreciate being able to have that conversation with people and the science is changing all the time and how we innovate is changing all the time. And there are innovations within farming and stuff that are happening. You know, there's small wins within this space. Yeah, it's, it's, we're having completely different conversations. Like the perfume industry and the world at large when it comes to precarity, when it comes to sourcing and this, that and the other thing. Josh: So we've heard about how synthetics are bad, natural is good, natural is better, natural is pure, without considering the historical, colonial, and imperial histories of extraction and exploitation, both in the way that they started, but also in the current way that they're still harvested. It's like every year you get another article about how Jasmine is being picked by children. And every time someone's like, this is terrible. And then they spritz on their Jasmine perfume and they go back to their life. And it's like, yes, maybe the synthetic is missing a little something. Maybe it's not quite there, but like it is better for the planet. doesn't involve ex- well, the synthetic itself doesn't involve exploiting people where that synthetic raw ingredients also come from. We can continue down that path. Arabelle Sicardi: Yeah. Michy: Yeah. ⁓ Arabelle Sicardi: Mm-hmm. Josh: It's this bizarre idea. It's like the whole thing around quinoa and how like it was suddenly better, but it like destroyed the Bolivian climate. There's this disconnect between natural is good when I can reach for it on the shelf with no consideration for its supply chain. Michy: Yeah. Arabelle Sicardi: Yeah. Michy: I think I put a little bit of that onus to the word synthetic being sort of a dirty word on. I put that on the influencer a little bit too because how often do you see somebody smell something and say that they don't like the way it smells because it smells synthetic? is it because it smells synthetic because is your nose actually capable of picking up the difference between a synthetic versus a raw material? Or is it because you're smelling a fragrance that is very cheaply made with very cheap ingredients that are not good quality even as synthetics. Arabelle Sicardi: Yeah, mean half the time what they're smelling is like linalool, right? That's like in everything, right? I'm like, you smell a note that reminds you of cleaner, but that doesn't mean it's a synthetic. Michy: Yeah, yeah. Josh: You Michy: Yeah. Josh: And synthetic can also be used to approach fragrances in a very interesting way. There is La Pamirpo, the French brand that I personally could not vibe with because their DNA has this very unique structured, purposeful synthetic-ness to it. It's meant to be ultra modern perfumery. There's the one that has shishito pepper and tuberose that's like an autopsy. It's like purposefully very sterile. Arabelle Sicardi: Mm, fascinating. That's disgusting. I want to know more. Yeah. Michy: They're insanely gorgeous bottles too. Yeah. Josh: Yeah. Yeah, but like when you describe something synthetic that way, you're giving people a frame of reference for it versus saying, this is synthetic bad. Arabelle Sicardi: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I do think that everyone could stand to develop their SAMEL literacy, right? That's so much of why I really love that there's an uptick of olfactory education across different skill sets. There's different classes that you can take at different levels at Institute for Art and Olfaction, right? Different organizations around the world are doing SAMEL clubs. to go over different fragrances. Emma has her Smell Club as well. And you know, like, yes, I do nose training too. And there's different places where you really have to sit with ingredients and compare them to final products because it really does help you understand what you have in front of you and what you have and what you see and smell around the world. It kind of gives you more context to understand. And there's that really beautiful zine, I think, called Smell Worlds. Michy: ⁓ Small word. ⁓ I love small words. Arabelle Sicardi: Sorry, smell words. Yeah. And I love it. I think it's a great educational resource as well. I mean, anytime I see an educational resource around fragrance, I pick it up. It's the easiest buy for me because being able to find just the right word and be precise is such a pleasure. And I know that's because I'm a writer and I'm obsessed with the little details and nitpicking. But when you are able to perfectly pinned down, the smell reference to where your brain is at. I think you feel a kind of connection that helps you center yourself to the world around you in a way that I wish I felt far more often than I do. It's really hard to stay connected to the world and not feel terrified by it and overwhelmed. And so every time I find a moment of complete recognition and synchronicity. and it comes from smell, I feel a little closer to the universe. And I'm like, yes, thank you. This is a blessing. It's the best. Michy: ⁓ Josh: Yeah, I mean, we've talked a little bit about like the raw ingredients themselves and they are precious. They have historical weights, they have cultural weights, and then there is this much darker side of their actual extraction and exploitation. Arabelle Sicardi: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Josh: but we also see outside of the conglomerates, see indie perfumers and niche perfumers that are really revering these ingredients and trying to show them for all of their history, for all of their meaning. Do you think there's a difference between appreciating the materials and fetishizing them? Arabelle Sicardi: Totally, but I can't be the police about either one really I have to know, I'm careful about About that. I think so much of it comes from Whenever I'm really curious about if it's fetish or reverence or devotion, simply, I'm the type of person like, I will simply call up the perfumer. I'm very much Chris Jenner. We're like, what would happen if you just called her up? Just call him up. And I recognize that most people can't do that, but you can certainly ask questions to the brands and be like, so what's your, what's, what's your personal stake in the story that you're telling? Michy: Hehehehe Arabelle Sicardi: I will give you an example. I find it extremely weird that there's a lot of new Asian perfume brands on the market now and they're all using European white perfumers to perfume. I think that's a huge wasted opportunity that really buys into ⁓ this narrative that European classical modern perfumery is the gold standard to adhere to when you could take a chance on your own people and offer fresh context and a fresh dialogue and dictionary to the olfactory landscape. We do not need you to go to Fermanich to make a perfume. I would like to see where you come from in your fragrance brand. You don't need to translate immediately. Like some things... Michy: Yeah. Arabelle Sicardi: resist translation and that's okay. That's kind of a pleasure. If it's, there's a little friction in the new audience, that's an opportunity for the audience to grow actually. ⁓ so I find it really sad when I come across a, a new house that I'm like, ⁓ cool. You're, you're, you're, you're from China. You're going to show me all of this legacy and fragrance. And then I look and I'm like, ⁓ it's another old French guy. Cool. Great. Michy: Yeah, even even down to the language, like, why are we still why are we still using the French terms? Why are we still saying extraite de peforme? Why are we saying me song like there was one brand, a Nigerian brand that I like when I looked at the translation and I was so relieved. I think it's Ili. ⁓ my goodness. Ili Alomu. Arabelle Sicardi: I got enough. I don't got enough of those. Michy: and they're Nigerian brand and it translates to House of Illumu. And I'm like, yes, please put this in your natural language. We don't need to center France again, even in your fragrance naming, but I digress. Arabelle Sicardi: Yeah. Yeah, 100%. I think that the idea that there has to be a fragrance center that we all revolve around is the epitome of self-colonization. It is such a missed opportunity for understanding that fragrance is a collective experience and there doesn't need to be a center in the collective. It can operate like a rhizome. It can operate like trees. Michy: Mm-hmm. Arabelle Sicardi: their nodes of meaning and context and each is each is beautiful without comparison. It does not need to be compared. We do not need to revere the oppressor, you know, like France grass got rich off of colonies, colonial forces and laborers and some of the first perfumers that ever came up in fragrance. Their families are still in it. They are truly No one can speak of Nippo babies stronger than the fragrance community. I really do mean that because like, yeah, you have like fashion houses that, you they're they come you got Nippo babies in fashion for sure. 100%. And I've hung out with all of them. But when it comes to perfume. perfumers have like multi-generational nepo baby goes hundreds of years back in a way that is very literal and they got into perfume because their grandfather was in perfume and their grandfather got into perfume because they were a general that was sent to New Guinea or something and suddenly they are dealing with fragrance materials. It's a very literal colonization legacy and fragrance. And so the more that we resist it and resist the structures that make it seem inevitable, I feel like the better we off, better off we are as a society, understanding that there doesn't need to be a center for there to be value and things don't need to be translatable easily to everybody. You don't need to make a fragrance for every single person. You don't need to make the biggest, most successful fragrance in the world. You just need to make something unique. Josh: I love that we're talking about this when I have the only French perfume I've ever purchased from a French heritage house that came in today sitting beside my computer. Arabelle Sicardi: Yeah, I just like I heard you talking about me Michy: Well, if you want to self-correct, I definitely recommend you trying from Iliolome the Verdant one because it smells like unripe green plantains as you're breaking and peeling the skin back. And it's certainly not for everyone, but again, it's one of those fragrances. If you get it, you get it, but it's so true to who they are. Josh: Yeah, I'm like, hey over there, gotta put you on my train a little bit. ⁓ Yeah. Arabelle Sicardi: Yeah. Michy: So if you want to self-correct a little bit Josh, you should sample that one. ⁓ Arabelle Sicardi: Yeah, and one of like the my hyper fixations right now is also like smelling through different versions of durian and fragrance, even though durian is obviously a very polarizing fruit for everybody. And I'm just having a really fun time hunting down different durian notes and fragrances and how fun and horrific and surprising and sweet it can be. I will never eat durian. Actually, like I've had it, it's fine. I don't think the smell is particularly worth enduring for the experience, but I'm having a really fun time understanding the opportunity of it as a fragrance note. And it's the Asian perfumers operating on their own houses that are doing like the coolest job of it right now, which I'm not surprised by. Josh: you Michy: Mm-hmm. Have you smelled from Voyager, the Thai house? I think it's called Golden Hour. Arabelle Sicardi: Yeah, I think it's so beautiful. Michy: The first five seconds of it have this really intense durian note that makes it smell like the mango is almost rotting. It's so ripe, but it's gone in five seconds and you're left with the most like juicy, ripe mango and sticky rice fragrance. It is wildly cool. I love it. Josh: have to agree with Arabelle. I have tried durian. It was an experience. ⁓ flavor is fine. I just don't think it matches up to the effort. ⁓ I ⁓ love Black Dog by ⁓ D-Grey. It uses that like ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ durian to bring this really interesting animalic to the front. ⁓ almost like a platform to bring up. Michy: Yeah. Mmm. Arabelle Sicardi: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Josh: the bass notes. think it's very interesting. Arabelle Sicardi: Danful has a durian note in one of the fragrances as well. don't remember which fragrance it is, but I loved that that was in there. I mean, Danful's line in general, I think is so beautiful and cool and weird. So I'm so glad that it's made it stateside. Michy: ⁓ So good. Jake let you the of the new one that we're getting from damn full the egg tart one. ⁓ my god, ⁓ it's ⁓ Phenomenal and so eggy and and dense It was exactly what I was hoping that mooncake was gonna be from Danam I Wanted that salted really yolky egg and it just came off like caramel to me. So it was really ⁓ Arabelle Sicardi: I think so. Yeah, I can't wait. Mm-hmm. Michy: refreshing to actually get that truly in a fragrance. Arabelle Sicardi: Yeah, when it comes to Denom, like, there's like only two that I really, really love from Japanese whiskey one is gorgeous and I think the Chinese calligraphy one is really really cool too. Michy: Those are my two favorites, actually, but I will never own Japanese whiskey because why is it the only one that's in a gigantic bottle that costs $300? Arabelle Sicardi: I know. And of course my sample from the discovery set arrived like broken. So it's like my favorite one and it had like literally one drop in it and I like snorted it like it was precious and it's gone now forever. Michy: No. Josh: you tying that back in though, we've kind of been, I love that we ebb and flow in these conversations. We have to get serious and vibe kill and then we got to build up cool stuff. You know, we have so many perfumes at our fingertips at any point. Anyone with an internet connection can get almost anything they want. Arabelle Sicardi: Mm-hmm. Michy: Yeah Arabelle Sicardi: Mm-hmm. It's a roller coaster, yeah. Josh: What do you think there should be in the transparency for a consumer to say, this is something to investigate more or let me move on? Arabelle Sicardi: Great question. think as long as there's like the IFRA compliance in there and they understand what allergen factors may or may not be there, ⁓ that is the bare minimum floor of what any fragrance should have. I get this question all the time about like what should you should look out for and what you shouldn't. And the reality is that changes based on your own personal politics and praxis about what you consider to be an ethical purchase. Some people really want to know if there's animal, you know, animal byproducts or cruelty free. And I think having all that information is really fair to 100%. it becomes complicated in fragrance when people are like, there should be like no animal stuff. If you don't want like Ambergris or you don't want any, like any animal byproducts that kind of eliminates a huge section of quality, like the quantity of ingredients and that's totally fine. If you don't want to deal with them, you don't want to deal with them. When I was doing research for, you know, supply chain stuff, I realized how really hard it is to get top to bottom transparency and clarity from every step of the process. And it does really seem like a don't ask, don't tell situation for a lot of perfume brands. who may not actually know where their ingredients come from. So I think the bare minimum customers should ask for is just to make sure that they're IFRA compliant. Because IFRA spends a lot of time going through all of this research on behalf of the consumers and the producers and everyone. So you don't actually have to become an expert yourself. Josh: That was one of the things that I thought was a really interesting answer from Victor from Zoologist when I interviewed him. I asked around, you know, what are his opinions on sustainability and perfume? And he was like, that's not really my area to care about. You know, each of the perfumers that make one of their perfumes has their own moral compass and their own ideology around sustainability. So when they're developing that framework and that perfume and that formula. Arabelle Sicardi: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Josh: they decide at that point if they're going to go that route or not. Arabelle Sicardi: Yeah, it's a moving target. We're not operating on the same page when it comes to these things, consumer to consumer and certainly perfumer to perfumer. Everyone's different. I have this conversation about sustainability and the idea of like a truly clean fragrance all the time with perfumers. And a lot of them are like, there is no clean perfume. You cannot make one. It is impossible. And others are like, well, I'm going to try my darnedest to make it happen. And more power to them. But it is a Michy: . Arabelle Sicardi: continuously moving target. And just like science, like I expect changes and delays and false starts and disappointments because this system is not set up for a perfectly pure experience. There is truly no There's no perfect perfume that will harm no one at any point. That has not cost the world anything. That's just simply not how it works. It's built on extraction from somewhere. Michy: Yeah. And I think with what I want people to understand too, is that when it comes to the term clean, unlike vegan or organic or I mean, cruelty free, there's governing bodies that set a standard for that, that you have to meet to get that sort of labeling on your packaging, right? There is no such thing when it comes to the term clean. Arabelle Sicardi: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Michy: You don't actually have to pass through any tests or any governing, any, any sort of agency to be able to get a clean label on your product. Arabelle Sicardi: Yeah, all of these labels like organic and vegan and cruelty free. There are different, all sorts of different organizations that you submit your product or your paperwork to and then they can look through it. You may pay them a nominal fee and then you are allowed to use those badges like the leaping bunny certification is one of them. ⁓ Michy: Mm-hmm. Arabelle Sicardi: If you're really interested in like a really comprehensive version of like business practices and clarity, if you find a brand that has certified B Corp, that is actually a really good sign because B Corp certification is quite rigorous. It's really comprehensive in terms of how they treat their employees, their financials, this, that, and the other thing. It's a really structural process. You can look up these different things. I've reported on the sustainability industry over and over again in the beauty industry. And there's new organizations that pop up all the time and new badges and certifications. So if you see one that you're curious about, you should totally chase that curiosity down and see if it's legitimate or not. Cause you will be surprised by how easy it is to just make up a website, make a badge and start charging people money. Lots of clowns. Lots of clowns driving cars here. Michy: Do you think that ingredients lists make people feel less anxiety about something even if they don't understand it necessarily? Arabelle Sicardi: No, I don't. wish that it comforted more people. I think that because of the rise of like, make America healthy again, and this idea of like resisting difficult science terms and ingredients list, at least in fragrance is almost meaningless. ⁓ People rely on it and then they get freaked out because they don't understand the terms. And it's I really, I think it's really difficult for brands to even get a comic, to translate the fragrance notes in a way that consumers really get because most of the time fragrance consumers don't actually know what notes they like. They think they do. And then you ask them really, and you give them different things and what they thought that they liked is not what they like. mean, Mishy, you probably understand this very intimately because you- Michy: ⁓ yes. Arabelle Sicardi: You do consults all the time with people that walk in. So you know far more than I about like, ⁓ you think you want a floral, but actually you hate that. And do you want an oceanic fragrance instead? ⁓ yeah, no, when I was doing the research for the book, it's like people were, I noticed, and I was talking to dermatologists and all of these things. Sometimes people get like phobias of, of things that they Michy: Yeah. Arabelle Sicardi: they don't really understand. It's like why is there's more people trying to make their own at home sunscreen? Because they think that somehow they know better than the science. That's not the case ever, ever. So. Michy: Hehehehehe Josh: I and this is probably a personal bias, but like if I look at an ingredients label and I see, you know, linal, it has like the actual breakdown of what is in the formula. I don't know what each of those chemicals smell like. I know a few of them, but I am like, okay, versus when I look at a label and it's like alcohol, scent ingredients or like fragrance. That's what I'm like. Arabelle Sicardi: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ⁓ my god, I have not seen something that big ever. I feel like I would call the police. Michy: No. ⁓ Josh: ⁓ I have, I've seen it and I'm like, what do you mean? Fragrance. What is it? Arabelle Sicardi: What do you mean? But what do you mean? Yeah, no, 100%. Michy: ⁓ goodness. Arabelle Sicardi: Yeah, I feel like the bare minimum any fragrance ingredient list should be is like five things, right? I mean, come on, you need some stabilizers in there. You have your denatured alcohol, you know, your perfumers alcohol or whatever. know, I know how the general thing is made. If you don't have the bare minimum skeleton, I get concerned. Yeah, I saw a video on TikTok or I know it was I deleted TikTok. So I saw a video on like Instagram the other day. Michy: Yeah Arabelle Sicardi: And it was like someone making their own homemade ingredient, like their homemade perfume. And they put like a literal like orange rind into the jar and then like a cinnamon thing and then like shook it up with like mysterious juice. And I was like, that's going to become a mold experiment in the next day. Not even, yeah. Michy: ⁓ my God. You shared that one in the group chat, right? And he was like, no. Arabelle Sicardi: I did, I was ugly laughing, I was like, have to curse you with this knowledge, I'm so sorry. Josh: You There is a brand on Instagram that I have seen pop up quite a bit that does this like, I think they're marketing it as like micro batch perfumery and they show themselves making one of the compounds that's in a perfume. But every time it is very much like that five minute crafts, like I take a slice of chili pepper and pound it with this mysterious white powder and then pour it in alcohol and now it's an ingredient. And every time I'm like, that's not how this works. Arabelle Sicardi: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Michy: you No. Oh, God. Josh: I'm not a chemist, I'm not a perfumer. That's not how this works. Arabelle Sicardi: Yeah, I love that they're doing that so you know what not to buy though. I love that. I love it so much because telling on yourself is really important, you know, and that helps me help myself. But also, you know, there's just that's that's a great point in which I do wish more legitimate, so to speak houses offered more of an inside look on the labor of Michy: Yeah. E? Arabelle Sicardi: this process. know Amage does a great job at it, but certainly they can afford to because they got lots of money, but they are doing a good job in terms of showing the intricacies of like the distillation process. And I love that insight. And I think it's a great educational tool for both perfumers and for the everyday person to like clock that everything that goes into these perfumes. Michy: Mm-hmm. Arabelle Sicardi: takes so much time, so much labor, and it's such a heavy process. It's not magic, and it's not a potion. Michy: is. there's ⁓ brand that we carry, Ordio Labs, ⁓ who they a lot of their own oil and tinctures. their social media presence is very small. But all they have on their social media ⁓ is videos them distilling ⁓ and and their oils and tinctures. And it's so fascinating to watch. And I agree, I wish I wish more people would show the process so that we actually understand. ⁓ Going back to your point about like, after consulting people on purchasing fragrances, it's changed the way I shop so much because I don't care about notes anymore in a fragrance. I care about ingredients, sure, but I don't care about notes anymore. And on the rare occasions that I go shopping and somebody is trying to sell me something and they're like, what do you like? I'm like, I like everything. Just show me what you think is the coolest. Like my nose is a whore. Just show it all to me. Arabelle Sicardi: Yeah. I'm like, show me your freaks first, baby. Show me the freaks first. Bring the freaks to the front. And they don't think I'm serious. And I'm like, no, I really mean it. Show me your least popular product first. Michy: I love it. Yes. Yeah, yeah. I think brands get nervous when I ask them that. like, I want to know what doesn't sell, what means the most to you, but maybe is not translating to your audience. That's what I want to smell. Josh: Right. Or if I walk into a perfume store and you can see all of the little tester bottles, the one that's the most full, I'm like, either it's, they've gone through an entire tester and it's brand new. So this is very, very popular or this never gets touched. Either way, I should give it a sniff to see where we're at. Arabelle Sicardi: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's like just like wines for me. I'm like, I want your weirdest wine, please. So it's just the most interesting stuff is often the least legible to the mass consumer. Josh: When talk about perfume, both as an art and as an industry, where do you the possibility for real change? Arabelle Sicardi: I think change is possible at every single level. It's really dependent on the collective agreement, though. ⁓ I think that consumer behavior can change and will change. It's because of finances, because of recessions, because of buying power that changes, for sure. ⁓ I also think that indie perfumers are the pioneers of innovation and artistry and that large houses like the the big five like the the filler factories they also revere the artists that are not within their system and they really do hunt for the weirdos and the freaks because they admire their bravery and they do reference all of the niche brands all the time and I wish that they were braver and I think that they are becoming more curious as well. It's just finding the right clients for them that allow them to be a little weirder is difficult, which I understand because it's a lot of money that goes into these things. But I think that consumers in general are ready and willing to be surprised and that we're seeing changes in an expansion in fragrance categories already. we're seeing more more niche and independent fragrances becoming more relevant and more popular and powerful on a global scale. And I love that. And we're seeing more opportunities for olfactory education at all levels everywhere, which I also love. And I think continuing that and continuing to connect and to be curious and critical and caring as both a consumer and as like someone that's in the industry is really important. Like we all have power to collectivize and to ask for more and for better and to build solutions together and be like, did you have to do that? No, you don't have to do that. You can choose differently. We all have that opportunity to choose differently at any point in time. And yeah, so I know that I'm a very much of a buzzkill and a feminist kill joy when it comes to talking about stuff in this episode. But I really do want to emphasize that there's so much possibility at every level. There are innovators that are trying their best to, you know, save farming infrastructure that are trying to preserve rare ingredients that are trying to replicate them, that are trying to honor legacy ingredients that are trying to find new ways to tell stories that are, and there's perfumers that are innovating with so few resources and are doing an incredible job that they become global sellers quite quickly. There are these stories, they're romantic and they're beautiful and they should be supported even and especially in the face of all of the despair. So I really wanna hold those. two truths at the same time. Like we do have devastation, we do have overconsumption, we do have filler, but we also, got brave weirdos, we have curious collectives, and we know more than we ever have before. And all of that is important together. Josh: Thank you so much for your time this evening. Michy: So yeah, thank you so much, Arabelle. I listen to you talk forever. ⁓ Closing ritual, what are you wearing right now? What are you excited about? Arabelle Sicardi: Of course. that. It's new Damful, ⁓ it's old house ⁓ and I got it at Stel the day. ⁓ And I didn't know that was related to a house before I got it, but it did appropriate given House of Beauty. And it's like a story about like going to your old family home and realizing that, you know, new people live there and it's a different story. ⁓ There's incense and it's just so strange and discomforting and actually because it's discomforting I find it very comforting. It's not cozy, it's a bit disturbing and I'm like yeah, that's exactly what I want. I love it. Michy: Yeah, ⁓ such a cool house. I am wearing ⁓ no suits. So this is a newer brand that we got in and I'm wearing been trying to meet you. ⁓ This is such a cool brand. They're out of the UK and the one of the partners is also a sculptural artist. So the cap is an abstract nose, which I love. ⁓ But they're they're kind of like equestrian in their in their fragrances like Arabelle Sicardi: Mm. Michy: The one high is very barnyard grassy. So good. This one I think is the most, the probably easiest wear of the three. And it's this really gorgeous honeyed hay that almost leans kind of licorice to me. I don't believe there's any licorice in their ingredients, but there's something about it that feels almost like eating salted licorice. Arabelle Sicardi: Mm-hmm. I love that one. I was wearing that the other day. It's so cool. Mm-hmm. Michy: in a field of wildflowers and I find it so comforting. They're also really, really nice people who listen to the podcast, so shout out to them. Arabelle Sicardi: Love. Josh: I'm into that one. I've been looking at hides. I'm gonna have to get some samples. ⁓ I started my day with Cloak Musk by Scent Trunk. It's one of my all time favorite fragrances. And then telling on myself, I fell in love with and ended up with my first French perfume. And that's 45 degrees by Trudon. ⁓ It's like a beeswax honey vanilla. There's something very carnal and sensual about the way it presents vanilla. Arabelle Sicardi: Yeah, they're so sweet. Mm-hmm. Michy: them. Arabelle Sicardi: Nice. Michy: It is a good one. Arabelle Sicardi: Mmm. Josh: that I destroyed that two mil sample in like four hours. And it was like, ⁓ okay. I haven't liked a fragrance this much. Yeah, I have not felt that strongly about a perfume in a while. And I felt a little weird about buying it, but I was like, you know what? I got it. Arabelle Sicardi: Not four hours, wow. That is decadence. Michy: Huh! Arabelle Sicardi: A good perfume is a good perfume. Yeah. Michy: You deserve a treat. Awesome. Well, Aribel, thank you so much for joining us tonight and thank you all for listening. Josh: Yeah Michy: love you. ⁓ Arabelle Sicardi: Thank you for having me. Have a great night.