LC James: The first time I realized perfume was political as a discrete, ⁓ there's politics to this, is an experience I think a lot of people who've worked in perfume retail can relate to, which is the first time after your training your fifth or sixth shift, and you realize you've begun to slot customers neatly into particular kinds of categories. You've removed a little bit of the human interaction from it and you've started analyzing your behaviors, your tastes, and put them into a certain class of people. But there's a more kind of messy, difficult to define moment that happens for me much younger, which is I'm watching an Elizabeth Taylor White Diamonds commercial. It's the These Have Always Brought Me Luck. And she's, know, this glamorous moment, this very orientalist music starts playing and she's sweeping down. And as a child, I didn't really understand all of the implications of her throwing the diamonds on the table and Michy: Mm. LC James: and her sort of rocky romantic history. But my grandmother, my mima did wear white diamonds and my mom and my grandmother did not get along very well. So there was this seeing and not really understanding the full implications of the commercial, hearing my mom make a derogatory comment about that perfume and my grandmother and putting it together and realizing there's this really intense ⁓ scrutiny and politics and analysis of who you are. that you can't control. And that's sort of a political identity as a woman. ⁓ I would say that's when I realized it was political. I would just love to know what you two, sort of those moments for you two as well. Michy: Yeah, I think for me it really was ⁓ starting to post content on TikTok and realizing that a lot of the things that I particularly liked were considered very masculine. just seeing how much the community is divided between fragrance talk and perfume talk, which I think is it's grown even more now. Like, what do you mean I can't wear woody spicy things? What do mean that makes me masculine? I don't know, it's so ridiculous and I the politics of gender specifically in this space is perhaps a huge conversation that we can be having, ⁓ but yeah, it's a little ridiculous and it's something I think we need to get over. Josh: And I think for me, you you draw the awareness before you're aware of the issue. And it's, think back to like middle school, particularly like gym time when you're a little Southern boy with some sugar in his tank and all of the girls smell like cotton candy and all of the ads are very sexual. And then all of the boys smells are like shark chainsaw and hyper masculine and aggressive. And you're like, I am in neither of these lanes and I don't know why I'm so different. Michy: Mm-hmm. Thank Yeah. LC James: Absolutely. Josh: So thank you for joining us this evening, Elsie. Would you like to give yourself kind of an introduction to anyone who's listening or watching and doesn't know you? LC James: Sure. Hi, I'm Elsie James. I'm a photographer, I'm a freelancer, I'm a multidisciplinary artist. I live and work in Appalachia. I am from the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia. I was raised in West Tennessee. ⁓ Prior to this current work, I've been a research librarian, a legislative aide in the House of Representatives, ⁓ and a perfume shop girl. So I do a lot of photography, brand development. I yap a lot at people. later this year with my best friend and business partner, Taylor Graham, I'll have a fragrance coming out. So my hands are in many different pies, but I sort of fundamentally work as a perfume dramaturg. It's a term I borrow from theater. It's this person who's the shepherd of a text or who unifies it, kind of this person who sets behind and to the left of the director, making sure all the threads of something weave together cohesively. And then I also talk a lot about vampires and science fiction and perfume on my social media channels, Nearly Nose Blind. That's me in a neat package, I think, and I'm really grateful that you all have had me and want to hear what I have to say. Michy: Of course, I'm very excited to hear more. Maybe maybe something we talk about later about this fragrance that you have coming out. ⁓ But I there is nothing I love more than an LC rant on TikTok. LC James: Yeah, there's an unfortunate there's I've exercised the majority of the evangelical from my background, but I have never met a soapbox I didn't like, I'm afraid. Michy: When I'm scrolling and your voice is slightly elevated, I'm like, okay, I'm set, I'm ready. LC James: ⁓ no! ⁓ man. Josh: I know it's gonna be a good video when your Tennessee starts to come out, because it reminds me of my Kentucky family and my grandmother particularly, and I'm like, yes. Whatever has got you in this mood, I'm here for it. Michy: ⁓ yeah. LC James: I think, and I can give you the underpinning for almost everything I'm gonna say in this conversation, which is I've stayed in a state of pissed off about it for a while, because I really hate it when people profit off of bad art. And I don't think that bad art is defined by someone's taste. It's not defined by you not liking Barnett Newman. It's the olfactory equivalent of like a Thomas King Cade replica that somebody bought at an outlet and your parents paid 400 bucks for it and you're like, This doesn't even have any like fake gesso on it. What are we doing? And there are so many people that I've met and interacted with on social media and in person who are busy adults with lives who want to have a portal to accessible art in their lives, but they don't have the hours of the day to research if these people are pieces of shit or if the perfume is any good. And there are so many people I see take advantage of that. Michy: Bye. Yeah. LC James: So I'm a Scorpio with the memory of an elephant and the capacity for vengeance of like a fury. So I just sit and collect all of these things. And then in the meantime, I'll talk about land rice as a pressure valve release, I guess. I'm not spelling myself as a ray of sunshine here, people. I do apologize. It's just, I think someone's got to give a shit about people who, like the myth of the perfect consumer or this thing that we chase in, Michy: You You LC James: And it leads into a question that you kind of asked, which is like, why do people resist framing perfume as a political thing that we engage with and kind of what we're talking about when we say that? And so when I'm talking about it, I'm referring to kind of a lens with which you can look at the world. ⁓ You can see how people behave and interact and treat each other and view each other through beauty trends. And it's also a lever for people to exert power. If we commodify youth and skinniness because the people who are running the companies are all pedophiles, then we see a rise in eating disorders because we're taught that we're supposed to be sick then. If we see that women are spending thousands of dollars a year on treatments to stay young, then there's another kind of missed opportunity for economic advantage. Hope you guys are having a great time. This is going to be such a lighthearted conversation. Josh: No, we appreciate it. LC James: And Michy: what we want. ⁓ LC James: we it because it is uncomfortable, right? Because ⁓ especially America, we have been taught to believe in the autonomy of our own choices, that we have so much free will that we make our choices in a vacuum. So what we do with our bodies and what we do with ourselves is just internal to us. It doesn't affect us. ⁓ But does. ⁓ You actually, like you engage and participate in a system. And reckoning with that is really hard. because we see politics as this other thing or this sport or this evil, when in reality, it's just a way to see the world a little more clearly. But that's difficult when you've been indoctrinated to view it as this, I think a lot of Americans equate politics with just the administrative state and administrative inefficiency. And this is not a podcast about the House Appropriations Committee, so I'm gonna stop talking there. yeah, you see a little bit of that. I'm gonna let you, I'm gonna stop talking now. Michy: you pointed something out that to me, reminded me very much of something in my formative years that I think if I didn't have ⁓ sort of early exposure, I would have had a very different body image from an early age. ⁓ ⁓ the early ⁓ my brother had gone to school for photography and his first job out of college ⁓ working as a retoucher. He's now a world-class retoucher, but I remember ⁓ Being like early teenage years and going into his studio and seeing the portraits of the celebrities that he was working on and seeing what their real skin texture looked like with their real bodies look like and seeing the finished product. I feel like at that point people weren't maybe maybe it was the lack of social media. know, they think maybe Facebook was just starting to emerge. But people weren't having these discussions that what we're seeing in these print images is not reality. This is not what the celebrities really look like. And so it was something I wanted to like scream from the rooftops. I'm like, this is a lie. Like nobody actually looks like this. It's not like these women aren't aren't fat. Like you think that they're a size five and they're fat or you think that they're stunning and perfect skin and perfect hair all the time. It's like, no, like they don't even come into the studio with their hair and makeup done looking like that. And it was it really was like this light bulb moment for me of like I The celebrities don't really look like that. I don't need to make myself fit into the box to look like that either. ⁓ LC James: Yeah, and I want to say something just quickly before we move on, which is, you know, as we're talking about moments of political awareness, ⁓ I mean, I'll speak for myself. I have the luxury of that slowly dawning upon me because I'm a white chick and I'm very straight passing. So all of these things have been inferences. They have been because of a lack of a particular kind of treatment. ⁓ But my friends who aren't white, ⁓ who are not white passing, Michy: Mm. LC James: this is an immediate kind of awareness of the politicization of their bodies and their skin. So just a recognition of like the, there's a luxury of getting to slowly come to awareness that you're a political being. And it's difficult to fathom until you see it in interacting with other people. Michy: Yeah. Thank you. Josh: for sure. And this is coming on the heels of, we're kind of doing this series on these big meaty topics about beauty and perfume industry. Our last episode was on brands behaving badly, particularly around the way they interact with fragrance content creators and the social media aspect. ⁓ And one of the things that we talked about in that previous episode, and you just said, and I think it's worth echoing is, there is no true pillar of a perfect consumer. This is all about awareness and conversation. This is not coming from a place of judgment or cancel culture. We're saying the more you hear and the more you're aware, the more informed of a consumer you can be. LC James: Yeah, my hope, anybody listening to this, takeaway, just to spoil the ending is all of these conversations, I want to empower you. If I was looking at a consumer who had a passing interest in niche or independent fragrance, and I saw the volume of products launched, and just a simple Google search for, if I searched interesting niche perfumes, not knowing how much people spent to be the first, second, third, fourth result, I'd be so overwhelmed that I think Developing an ethical and moral framework for how you buy perfume is not something you do to be holier than thou or virtuous. It actually makes your buying a lot easier. Like if you want the perfume, if it matches your values checklist, you just saved yourself a whole bunch of time and money. And so I hope that there's, hate, the quote I love is that the first step in the development of taste of good taste is the willingness to credit your own opinion. I undermine the validity of that quote when I say that it's a Hannibal Lecter ⁓ via Thomas Harris. So we'll take the Hannibal Lecter recommendation. Michy: Yeah, it makes me concerned for like people just starting out to be a content creator too, there is this, we spoke about how frequently fragrances are being released right now, and there is this need to always keep up and always be posting about what's new and that will bankrupt you incredibly quickly. You know, trying to keep up with people who are established who are receiving PR is not possible unless you have an unlimited budget for these sort of things. So it has sort of like dropped the, you know, or raised the bar of entry into the content creation world. And I think when you take a step back and say, am I buying this because I need to be the first one posting about it? Or am I buying it because I actually like it and I'm passionate about talking about it? You can slow down and actually enjoy your collection and not just enjoy it for other people. Josh: So when we talk about politics and perfume, ⁓ obviously there's this cultural artifact underpinning, but there's also ⁓ very real history that goes along with it. And at a high level, because there could be whole ⁓ on this. How has perfume been shaped by colonial history, trade, ⁓ and wealth? LC James: I can give you, I think, a fairly uneducated answer. I would look for detailed ones in people like Donna El-Mazri. She's the Jasmine Surai brand founder. And Donna and her sort of incredibly elegant and accessible work in talking about Orientalism and talking about the works of Said and putting that into her fragrances and practice is really important. So when I give you this answer, I just want to credit her. ⁓ and people who do work like her, because Donna is somebody who's just really fundamental and I don't think gets nearly enough credit. But what we can understand is that perfume follows a general trend of exploitation, raw material exploitation. And all of it, I think, falls under the idea that a socially stratified society is never going to produce an egalitarian product. So. You see the way that perfume is influenced and material flows in the same way that you see a fascination like with Odielisks or with chinoiserie. And that's just one aspect of it. That's just sort of the context that we have, which is this colonialization and trade into Europe, which often means that true stories of cultural exchange and kind of the more remarkable ones don't get highlighted. So I'll again point to somebody else who's been very instructive for me, Carlos Huber, the founder of Arquist, who crafts a perfume called Nanban about this incredible Spanish-Japanese man who, you know, it's not the stuff of someone's DEI TV show. These are real people. And we lose some of those stories in the large scale kind of... I want to speak about... material usage and raw material extraction, but I'm simply not educated enough to say beyond, we have kind of pillaged and harvested precious materials from Indigenous reasons, regions, like we have just about everything else we can get our paws on. So that's, I think, the extent to which I can speak in an educated way about that. Josh: For sure, and we have whole episodes planned around raw material sourcing, as well as greenwashing and kind of the ecological and colonial impact there. ⁓ Yeah, we know these are big, crazy issues, but they're also intertwined. So you can't always get into one topic without at least acknowledging the others. Michy: Mm-hmm. LC James: Yeah, amazing. Michy: Yeah. LC James: Yeah. Michy: Yeah. LC James: ⁓ it's a tangle. It's a whole bramble patch. you have to, there's another thing that underpins this, which is we've pushed, especially with the social media soundbite, ⁓ the notion that you have to be an expert to present something. In many ways we learn and we share it together by sharing observations and analysis. I mean, to say, here is what I've observed and seen, and I present it to you. So that it's perfectly okay for someone to say, I don't actually know. how to pronounce that. I don't actually know the implications of that, but now I can find out and we can learn something together. It takes some humility to do that, I think, which is hard for anybody, because you post on the internet a little bit to feel good about yourself, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's nice to feel like people agree with you, especially when you're surrounded by people who aren't smart enough to agree with you most of the time. So it's a nice boost. And then, you know, the consequence of that is you deal rapidly with your own ego, but that's a different kind of diversion. Like who we follow as like who we hold up as teachers versus who we just hold up as people with us that might have something to share. Michy: narratives do you think are built around words like luxury, refinement and taste? LC James: ⁓ Well, the controversial answer is that the way that we use them is the way that we can steal Black culture in America and present it for thousands and thousands of dollars. It's the way that Phoebe Philo can produce her ghetto collection for chic moms in, I don't know, is, whatever area of Los Angeles is fancy. I don't know. But it's okay to take that away from Black women. Michy: you I can't. LC James: It's a great way to continue the implementation of social stratification. Like, taste what is considered tacky, what is considered not tacky, and as you start looking at what's considered tacky, it's all ethnic. It's all cultural. It's all this thing of a particular place that's not the homogenized white culture. But it's okay. We'll pick out little bits of it that we want. Like, yeah, have a batik print hanging in your house. ⁓ that kente cloth is beautiful. Michy: Mm. Mm-hmm. LC James: Did you get it on the safari you paid $12,000 for? Like we do this sort of cultural accumulation and we call that taste and we call that luxury. You know, and we look for the permission to have the lion's skin on our carpet. I spent a lot of time in rich people's apartments in Brooklyn the past couple of months and they might've maybe pissed me off. So I apologize in advance. ⁓ Cause we, cause this is the part where I'm really gonna get in trouble. Michy: Get LC James: leftists and progressives are always going to have a better understanding of the ⁓ necessity of the arts, of the desire to express yourself. There's always going to be a better understanding of artistic interaction and coolness, which also means that we're much more susceptible to sort of be magpies and pillage things. And that's what I see as, you know, one element of those conversations, but another is quite simply shaping class. Michy: Mm. LC James: And you see performance of class. I should stop and say that a lot of my political theory and belief is based on, like some dead French philosophers, this one incredibly intelligent and frustrating person named Judith Butler, who shapes everything as a performance, theater degree, this helps me, this serves my bias. But you see people perform class. So what's a bottle of Baccarat go for these days? Was it 450 something? Michy: Something like that, yeah. LC James: something like that, right? So you price it that high and you slap the Baccarat label on it. I'm not telling anybody. If you go to your antique shop for 20 bucks, you can probably find a Baccarat crystal, your lawn bottle. We don't want you to have that. We want you to have the Nuva Riche thing. And Michy: Mm. LC James: You know, if you took a poll, think in the White House right now, I would imagine a Zara dupe of baccarat might be the most popular fragrance there. You know, but I can turn around and say in Northern Virginia that the most popular swinger's bar, all the swingers all smell like baccarat. But we associate sexual promiscuity with low class behavior. So I'm giving you all of these salacious examples because really what we're talking about are different ways to enforce our social stratification, which is based heavily upon acquisition of wealth, sexuality, ⁓ racial identity, and cultural identity. So all these different movers you can pull. Michy: I think it even goes back to what we were saying about colonization of scent and since our ingredients being harvested and created, grown in different parts of the world, but still considering France and Europe the epicenter of fragrance. And if you tell somebody, particularly right now, I think we're seeing a big boom in fragrances. created in Asian and South Asian countries, right? And some of the fragrances that are coming out of there are wildly incredible. But I see the look on people's faces when they walk into the store and I tell them this brand is from China, this brand is from India. And they react very differently when I say, yeah, this one is from France, this one is from Italy. LC James: ⁓ we've done a great job with that propaganda, haven't we? And that extends to, know, if you start looking into, ⁓ you know, okay, everybody can put their very nice tinfoil hat on here. You really wouldn't want people to understand the leaps and bounds to which China's manufacturing economy is more sophisticated than the U.S. And you'll find this out real damn lickety split fast if you decide to start a brand. Michy: ⁓ yeah, ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. LC James: ⁓ And how much you're paying for that label of European luxury versus the massively more sophisticated, transparent and accessible manufacturing there is in China. Don't get me started on the xenophobia. The white girls should not talk about that. However, it is real. And the whole made in China association with cheap bullshit is Michy: Mm. Josh: CIA. Yeah. ⁓ LC James: That's what they want you to think. That's what they want you to think. Josh: Massive counterintelligence operation that was incredibly successful. ⁓ So talking to kind of the way that really the politics of everything, but also more specifically perfume and beauty are used as you said, social stratification. Who gets told that their sense are too much? Michy: Yes. LC James: women. This is I like, black women are always going to get told they're too much. They are always going to get told that they are doing too much, they are too loud, but they take up too much space. And this is something that I view as an objective fact. People who are already at a social disadvantage are policed disproportionately. This falls under a larger category of women being policed disproportionately. Michy: Mm-hmm. LC James: and to your point earlier, Machi, the more that you play against a gender stereotype, the more you set yourself apart for that kind of policing. And then we also get it in the sort of policing of strength, which I find, I know, because I just watched Emily Perfume Bisco's videos, and those asthmatic girlies will actually cancel you faster than anybody else. So my tongue, I should hold it. Michy: Mm. ⁓ my gosh. LC James: Well no, because that's the other thing is that the... I think this is somebody with an inhaler in my, you know, in my desk drawer. You know, people get policed. Does disproportionately the more that you don't fit a social norm? All the damn time. But black women, like there's a definitive answer to that question and it's black women. Michy: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I... Yeah. Yeah, when I was seeing all of that anger in Emily Perfume Disco's post, I was shocked because there's a content creator out there called Overspray J that literally sprays his body until he is dripping in fragrance. I'm like, are these people in his comment section or is it no, because he's a man doing it and she is a large woman doing it? What's the difference? LC James: Yeah, I also think the difference is there is no grace given to women. If you're not familiar, so Emily, Perfume Disco, she's a lovely content creator and she made this really cute video with a body mist. She was addressing essentially a gripe people have, I think, about longevity of body mists. And so she's outside in her yard, spraying herself down, dancing like a fairy princess. Nothing's wrong with that. ⁓ man. You would have thought that this was a Michy: No, never. Mm-hmm. So yeah. LC James: orchestrated terrorist attack on anybody with a little bit of like bronchial restriction. And I'm like, my friends, the smell of vision is not real. You're gonna be okay. You will live. I don't know how. I'll hold your hand and get you through this, but you gotta leave Emily alone. ⁓ Nobody can take a joke when it's a woman telling it, I think is the other thing. that's ⁓ nonsense. Michy: Nope. Not at all. Josh: it a funny example, it is a very tangible example of the way that same who gets told that their sentence too much reflects in workplaces and schools and public places ⁓ and ⁓ the internet even as a forum if are too much ⁓ blank, you can't take up space here. LC James: And we don't want you here either. And I mean, I've seen this pervade into interactions with brands and interactions with people. You know, there's the list of people I keep my mouth shut about because they seem so lovely to everybody else's founders. But you get the distinct sense that, man, if you weren't making them money, they'd never want to be in the same room as you. And that's another really insidious political thing is that we see sort of using your framework, Josh, of too muchness. Michy: Mm-hmm. LC James: But they'll still commodify you. They'll still throw you 500 bucks, maybe. And then still say that, you know, ⁓ you're our bestie. But they don't want to be in a picture with you. They don't want to be associated with you. But they're so happy that you're making the money. And there's this which is like, grumble, grumble, we need a union, but that will never work. So aside from unionized labor, but I don't know. And I would I would hate I hope you all haven't had those interactions. But there's Michy: Mm-hmm. Mmm. LC James: you a very clear understanding of, yeah, you actually don't give a fuck about me, except I'm not giving you money. And I view you as this necessary evil. It's a, Michy: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah. Josh: Yeah. And I think there's a very clear example to point to that echoes your previous point where how many large following, incredibly successful black women are there on Perfume Talk that hype up and create the trend for certain brands, but are never acknowledged, are never given PR, are never at the events. And it's such a very clear They're happy to have the publicity, but they'll never give credit where it was due. Michy: Mm-hmm. LC James: Every bit of the old beliefs about how you sell perfume are prevalent in new marketing. There are very few new stories being told new ways because so many brands are hooked into this quick capital return idea. There might've been a true artisan spirit at the base of it, but there's a couple people that are perfume TikTok darlings. I will never forget how they made me feel. and how clear it was that they couldn't give a fuck about me. And so instead I will happily talk about the people who have, just as an artist and a person. And what's so interesting is disproportionately they're women of color. I will always say that the person who paid my invoice, who insisted I send her an invoice and pay me the fastest was Makeda from Brown Sugar Babe. You can say whatever you want, but there has never been a more professional polished Michy: Mm-hmm. LC James: fantastic experience. But Makeda's had to fight for recognition because her brand has been unapologetically black, because she's not pandered to mass cultural references. And I will tell you what's really amazing is being in a room full of those women, you don't feel excluded. I have been to parties at upscale perfume places where I have wanted to run screaming from the room, because I thought everybody in here was. Michy: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. LC James: Like there's a, and, Mitchie, know you've had those interactions too, where you've got to keep the plaster in your face, but the, you know, if this sounds like, you know, complaining, the consumer advice I want to frame is trust how people make you feel. Trust how people make you feel the first time. That's a great way to winnow things down. Michy: Yep. ⁓ yeah. ⁓ absolutely. There have been plenty of times where I've walked into some of these larger events and, you know, I guess I expect it from the certain men on that side of TikTok. Don't even pay that any of mind. But I was very surprised by how many women, you know, I'm short, I'm a plus size girl. And when I walk into a room and I get the up and down look and turn away like, well, OK, interesting. I know exactly how you are now. Says a lot more about you than it does about me. Makes you really mad that I've been in the same room as you. And that brings me a little joy. LC James: Yeah. ⁓ yeah, the up and down cracks me up. ⁓ I have been, there's a little bit of personal vengeance in making people uncomfortable. And I would love to make the argument that that's politically disruptive, but again, I'm a Scorpio. So I find that sort of thing disruptive and entertaining. And also, I mean, it's a luxury to be able to do that. And I look back again saying those... Michy: ⁓ yeah. LC James: a reflection of the stratification that we see in perfume as a measure really to control a lot of the discourse and narrative. Because even content creators aren't taking the time to do the whole like Arrested Development Pepe Silvio board of red string that I absolutely have up written down of all of the different times these people have done some stupid bullshit. But when I put that up suddenly, I'm a conspiracy theorist and I need to forgive and forget and not hold grudges. Michy: You Yeah. Okay. LC James: but it happens again and again and again and again. And you don't have the time to interact with that, but we've also enforced a lot of competitiveness on Perfume TikTok, I think among women, ⁓ a way that manifests nastily. like, I mean, I think you and I both felt this at Scent Explorer. There were a bunch of incredible interactions, but a couple of people where we were just like, what do you need and why is it an exorcism? Like what is? Michy: Mm-hmm. ⁓ yeah. I'm ⁓ Yeah. LC James: wrong with you and if you're listening to this wondering if I'm talking about you I probably am DM me about it and I will like I don't know if you talked to manners but there is like that's the only thing I would encourage is be a little kinder maybe that's just my feelings hurt sorry I just we have to talk about this because it's not that a bunch of mean girls decided to be mean it's that it's this continual reflection and refraction of the Josh: You Michy: Yeah. Mm-hmm. LC James: the nature in which we've been put. Because the idea with making good art is that you can do it collaboratively, but you can't sell shit collaboratively. Everybody's got to fight so you can get the most money. Yeah, it does. It starts with how you treat other people. again, I want to spoil the end of this. The biggest thing you can do to empower yourself is to think about how you treat people and why, and then treat people better. And sometimes that really just means more investment of your time or more patience or more engagement with them. But just change your attitude of how you treat one person. does have an effect. Michy: Yeah. LC James: Like, I will not be practicing what I preach. I'm a bitter, vengeful harpy, but I will try. Like, I'm gonna do my best. Hopefully, like, the hope is that the people who go after you are better than you, right? Michy: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ LC James: Alright. Michy: It's so hard not naming names sometimes. Cut that out. LC James: Dude, I'm... It's superbly difficult. Michy: ⁓ goodness. That is honestly, it was that up and down look. Me, maybe like 10 years ago, me would have cut and run and not dealt with it. And me now, I'm like, I don't give a single fuck what you think about me. It takes time. ⁓ LC James: Well, there's a nice little part of it too of like, and I can talk, this is a great example of politics and power wielding, right? Is I help run PR lists for a couple of different brands. And if you've said stupid shit on the internet that I know about, I'm not gonna send you stuff. And it's not because I think you're a bad person. It's because my job is also to help keep my brands out of hot water Michy: Mm-hmm. I we're seeing the even bigger fall of the collapse of the influencer now too, especially with the ⁓ YouTubers the ⁓ 2015-2016 on to ⁓ TikTok really showcasing this luxury while people can't afford to buy groceries. It is the death of the big influencer ⁓ and come for the makeup community, I agree with you. It will eventually come for the fragrance community as well. Josh: We talked last week about what does accountability as being a member of the perfume community look like for us. And I do have to think about how I always try to make my short form content positive. If I don't like it, I just don't talk about it. Because I think the world is full of enough negativity unless it is particularly egregious. And it is hard to have that perspective going into it when I see people who have been called out. for being Nazis and they delete their profile and they build a new one with their name just flipped around. And then they start building and cultivating this following. And I see people that I like and respect following them. And I'm like, ⁓ but you don't know they're shitty. And I feel like I'm gonna be pointed out as the crazy person if I go on a rampage against this because no one else is talking. Michy: Yeah. LC James: And that's the system working as designed, right? When we have entered into a system that prizes the acquisition of wealth, new accumulation of capital, and when the posts that get the most engagement for large content creators are of their new cars, then what we're telling us is it's not about the perfume anymore and it never has been. But we see ourselves in such vacuums and we have so little solidarity. Michy: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. LC James: that we can't do something as simple as what you're suggesting, which is look out for our friends, which is to make sure that the people that we want around us are actually around us, because then we're the problem. And then we're jealous. And then, you know, we are there's something about us that's insufficient. So that's why we're calling it out, because there's no other reason. There's external reason that it could be like a sense of justice. No, it has to be because there's something in you. But again, that's because we're isolated. And that's so, yeah, my encouragement is like, you should reach out. Like, I want to know if somebody I'm following is doing something shitty. Yeah, tell me. I don't need to make a statement about it. I hit the unfollow button. You know what I mean? Like, that's the other thing is like, going back to that earlier question of why are we so reluctant to frame it like this? It's because we have put the onus of change and action on the individual and not emphasize that you can change in community with like-minded people. So we think the minute that we frame something politically, now we have to do something. ⁓ now, ⁓ because of this. Now we've got to do something about it. Or I have to let everybody know where I stand. No, just hit unfollow. Take a breath and pack a cone. It's not that deep. You don't have to associate with people who don't share your values and you don't have to scream it from the rooftops. Like it's okay as you're talking about to let your values be shown. by what you do speak about and what you do promote. But there's, you know, that's more, you know, not to be terribly cynical, but we've even commodified intellectualization when people's sub stacks are linked, you know, once a week in a trendy way where, I think the sub stack's pretty vapid, let's be honest. Like three words got used wrong, but at least you know where your thesaurus is and I'm glad for that. But we want to demonstrate the performance of thinking about things while still being sort of like, abhorrently bigoted. And totally like the point is going sailing over our heads. So there's like, you have to show up as what you actually believe in. And I'm rambling towards the point, I promise. One of the biggest problems is people haven't been confronted with a need to have a moral framework. Not much has happened in their lives that requires them to develop a moral structure or code of ethics. It's given to them maybe with religion or with socialization. But until you have confronted having a partner or having a child or working in an environment or being in a situation, you might not have those values. So I think for a lot of people, it's an uphill slog and a burden to think about, what do I actually believe in? And also, if you're not from an economically advantaged situation, it's fucking hard to turn down money. Like we're also talking about performance in a virtual space. And if you're somebody who is, you know, got a decent, I'm, this is a, I'm, am not speaking about anybody in particular. I am making this up off the top of my head. You're somebody who's got, you know, a working class job and you have a TikTok page that pops off and all of a sudden, you know, there's a couple of dupe brands that want to pay you a ton of money to do something. You're thinking, This won't affect my life. The people in my community don't know that I do this. Nobody cares if I talk about some perfume and sell it. And look, I just made $5,000. You know, how do you tell somebody, no, you can't do that because of these highfalutin moral principles about artistic integrity? As long as the system has interwoven to pitch us against each other like that, the perfume economy is gonna be fucky. Michy: Yeah. LC James: That's the really hard part and it's easy for me to talk about content creators because I see them and I deal with them all day. yeah, you're happy to take it anywhere you want. Michy: Yeah. I'm Josh: There's, again, we could go for hours. think the general thesis here is that it is messy and it's okay to acknowledge it's messy. Michy: Mm-hmm. Josh: but embracing that and having that your own compass will help you in your consumerism, in your personal relationships, in your political relationships, like all of those things. ⁓ Turning towards the perfume side again, how do you feel like brands have benefited from reinforcing these safe and polite scent ideals? LC James: To the benefit of a lot of pocketbooks, ⁓ I hesitate to engage in this kind of theorizing because I don't know everyone's bottom line. But I do think that there is a benefit to formulating in a more simplistic way, just from a pure cost perspective. If you're not, you know, whacking a ton of Rose, Jasmine, Oris into a bottle, you know, your cost per bottle is going to look a little different than if it's, you know, fluffy laundry musks. Michy: Mm-hmm. LC James: I think that there's also... Perfume is still an element of the beauty industry that's shaped by larger editorial forces, which are also responsive to political currents. So I'm like, I am super curious what Chloe Myles is going to do at Vogue. And if there's going to be a fragrance feature, no, I am the kind of nepotism there with her family. But they've benefited monetarily. They've benefited from a brand identity. They've associated themselves with something prestigious. Anytime you see people ally themselves with a minimalism or a crispness or something that's very sparse, my gay art history antennas go all the way up. And I go, what are you doing and why? What do you benefit from having such a, what is the benefit of cleanliness? And to put the tinfoil hat on again, it's an erasure of identity. Michy: Yeah. ⁓ LC James: when you all smell like this clean starched specific thing. And I want to make a small exception here for a broody hot cotton, for being ⁓ absurdly photorealistic to the point that your clothes smell singed the first time I put it on a cotton shirt. That sort of thing. There's also a candle that Ethan Gaskell makes and I, it's like chain link or something. It smells just like a laundromat, but like you've gotten blasted with steam from it. Michy: So good. Yes. LC James: Those sorts of things I find endlessly fascinating. Those are the kind of clean fragrances that I like to wear. ⁓ even when people try to tell stories with intention and nuance, there's a benefit in a simplified narrative. Wear to clean and fresh. Well, also going back to the earlier question is ⁓ who are we saying stinks? What are we saying is unbearable? Like. Josh: Mm-hmm. LC James: And if you ask people, someone eventually is going to, again, I say it's systemic racism. That's all where it's from. Josh: Absolutely. And I'm going to butcher this because I'm only half remembering a quote from a book I read around, know, if you start your collar enough, it will eventually cut your head off. And like this idea that we have this, and if I find the quote, I'll make sure it gets put below the episode. Yeah. Because it's this idea of, this cleanliness, this, this cutting off of identity is to say I'm this because I'm LC James: I know, I love that. Even if it's a paraphrase, that's great. Michy: Mm hmm. LC James: Mm-hmm. Josh: And so often the not that is things that are black, things that are feminine, things that are queer. LC James: I mean, let's call this out too. One of the most rich scent cultures that we see is in the Indian subcontinent. the butt of like, I'm thinking about the question I thought of, or the answer I thought of is when you talk about policing bodies, ⁓ the most clear example of what I'm actually gonna go ahead and call an olfactory discrimination is folks who cook traditional Indian food. Like if you're cooking with a full know, range of spices. And that that's just sort of like commonly accepted that we're supposed to like find that abhorrent. I mean, and there's like, that's the most distinct and prevalent. know, policing that I can think about is in our cooking, is when like why my home smells offensive to you. Is that's like a huge one. Michy: Yeah. coming from a bunch of people who don't season their food. So there's that. LC James: It's also the... Yeah, is a sterility. I was a student of a lot of World War I art movements, like Dada, and responses to the First World War. And one of those responses is in Italian futurism, which is an arts movement that's eventually adopted by Benito Mussolini. And you see it in the public architecture that's presented. Maybe the most foreboding example for me is the Santa Maria Novella station in Florence. You can go further and you can see like Il De Gea has shit everywhere, ⁓ making rot. Michy: Mm-mm. LC James: what he wants to bring back classical Roman statue, which we understand to be loaded with a lot of homoerotic tendency and a different understanding of sexual interactions. But he neuters them both in specific form in genitalia and he instead is presenting like this sterile white marble stereotype of a man moving forward. And there's a similar neutering of identity that happens with clean fragrance. Michy: Mm-hmm. LC James: Do not take from this gentle listener that you shouldn't wear your clean perfume. Like if you like smelling like that, awesome. But like also carry this context with you. So maybe also God forbid, put some Lori Rodkin gothic two on that shit. Please chocolate and patchouli obnoxiousness. Just five minutes. Like be the third grader at the zoo and be curious and put the banana python in your shoulders. Like where are the patchouli? You will live. It's fine. Josh: You LC James: will not combust into hippie flames. And also like smell some real patchouli. The best thing Yochan ever did for me among the million things she's done for me that's great, many praises to Yochan, is shove real patchouli and real sandalwood under my nose. And another thing while I talk about that, let's talk about the pillars of the fragrance community that are people of color, that are queer people who expend their energy tirelessly for the betterment of everybody else. Michy: ⁓ so good. Mm-hmm. LC James: and their reward is to be stolen from. So the next time you take an Art Null Faction class, tag your fucking professors, people. You didn't learn that shit last night. Ain't a damn chat GPT taught you nothing. Go ahead and tag everybody. Tag your teachers, it matters and it makes you more legitimate. That's the thing we've really got to change. Now y'all really got me on a roll, god damn it. It's okay to be taught, it's okay to be instructed, it's okay to be self-taught. It's a great thing to honor the people who have taught you. Michy: Ha you LC James: You want to be a part of changing a narrative. Don't buy into this notion that you have to be fully formed and know everything. Share with people and be proud. Like I'm proud to say Donna and Carlos and Yosh have taught me things and I've been the grateful beneficiary of it. That doesn't take away from me. That's the pedigree of my education. That's what I think everybody should be more proud of is I don't know this, but look who taught it to me. And ask people who are different from you. Josh: You LC James: That's all right. Let me stop. Sorry. Let me try to help. Michy: Yeah, no, that was my big takeaway too after Cent Explore and like working with you and Carlos was so incredibly enlightening and I had posted a video about it because I genuinely with my self-esteem as a younger person would have cut and run and said I don't know enough, I can't do this. But I came away from that entire experience feeling so energized and excited from learning from both of you for the entire day. And it's it's a mentality that I wish more people would take moving into this. like, there's so much more that you don't know that you don't know. LC James: And I want to commend you too, like for you guys who aren't aware, Scent Explorer is intense. Just from like a sensory perspective, you know, if you have nail polish on, it melts from the exposure to perfumers alcohol, your table start getting sticky, you can't breathe, you don't have the chance for a water or bathroom break, and also you need to be able to answer everyone's question as soon as possible. And Mitchie jumped right in and was absolutely incredible and graceful and like just Michy: Yeah, that was crazy. Mmm. I don't know what I said. Oh, man. LC James: owned it in the middle of what was a fever dream. Like this, like, like your introduction to that and to being able to be like fluent with that. just want to praise you for a second because most people are like, oh, now you've gone on the floor. Oh, we'll have a manager with you. We shoved you out of a helicopter and said you can swim, right? Great. Love it. You're doing great. Josh: you Michy: I need it. I need it. I need to be pushed that way. LC James: I should just holler if you need me. No, you didn't. It was awesome. And this is also like the sales face of it as women were so pressured. Like I was in a corset for 12 straight hours and it was like I left that part of my masochism behind after two years on FetLife. A girl was good. I didn't need it anymore. Why did I do this to myself? And I was like, well, I look good, so it's fine. Michy: I don't know how you did it. You You looked really fucking good. ⁓ LC James: But you notice that too, right? Is there's this, dare you show up not looking like a model, like a Kate Moss, being proud of how you look and who you are and how you smell. Like that's an enormous stereotype to overcome. So that's a diversion to, I like we're just talking over top of you, Josh, I apologize. But that was genuinely actually apocalyptic. Michy: Mm-hmm. Yeah. LC James: So the ones that, you know, the things that I've always looked at and been ⁓ really excited about, ⁓ I just ⁓ did ⁓ a talk yesterday with Yosh and a bunch of people. ⁓ So Marco Castro is a celebrity makeup artist who has done this insane amount of research and work to have Palo Santo sticks in a way that's sustainable, ethical. ⁓ He left with a really excellent quote, which is that we have abdicated ourselves of our responsibility to sustainability by believing that our individual decisions don't matter. And really, actually it's very empowering because it's very easy to buy into the message that one, you know, one purchase won't change the world. Michy: Mm-hmm. LC James: But it does set you on a path, a particular moral path. If you've made a choice, that choice is actually probably pretty easy. And then you can make another one that brings you closer in alignment with the world you want to be in. And the main problem of that is how few people want to put that work in because of how disruptive it is to their enjoyment of something. ⁓ Michy: . Josh: Yosh made a video about that not too long ago where she said something similar along the lines of like. Yes, you purchasing from one of these brands that is complicit in all of the terrible things that are happening isn't going to matter. But if it's you and 2000 other people, that starts to the needle. Michy: Cheers. LC James: It doesn't matter. And the flip I want to make for that is to say the purchase that you've researched, the purchase that you've hunted for, the thing that I, the behavioral redirection I would love to see is the framing of this like a treasure hunt. That's something that we do not, the big question I'm wrestling with right now, like philosophically, is why we market on exclusivity. and why it's so successful? What drives us as humans to want something other people can't have? What drives us to have limited editions? And now I say this, not as a monk, I say this as somebody with three of the regime to floor Hawaii bottles that I hunted for four months sitting in my vanity and have I warned them maybe four times, which is actually what inspired this is I woke up, bonked myself on the head and what are you doing? Like, what is it that... Michy: Hmm. ⁓ it. LC James: that makes us so happy. Is it like this corvid brain that makes us go, have the shiny and you don't? ⁓ Is this just a side long plea for Roberto Greco to not make Porter Sapo a limited edition? If that's the result, I'm fucking delighted. But really, it's, we like having things other people can't have and we've really got to break that whole stigma down. It's that classist thing. Michy: Hehehehehe LC James: I have it, you don't, so I have something up on you. But if we instead frame it as, this is special because I sought it out, because I wanted this and found it, developing a universe of what you want to smell like and want to explore, and then it's not that you didn't purchase from Lulabo, it's that you did purchase from Jean Robert, it's that you did purchase from Cirrus, it's that you purchased from Anjali. And now that really makes so much more of a difference. So that which is truly luxurious or truly unique and exquisite is something you find and you can have a real human relationship with the maker. That's where I think a lot of positive energy can be spent, is that it's not that you're depriving yourself of something accessible, it's that you're finding something truly special. Michy: Yeah, my hot take and as you acknowledge, the exclusivity thing really is for marketing just where it's at right now. But I do think that exclusivity in kind of all forms, and I mean this in brands having an exclusive scent with a single retailer or an exclusive country scent, I think it honestly ruins the experience. for the consumer. It really does. And I know it works, I don't know. I don't think that it's a good look for brands. ⁓ I think it builds some resentment that is going to eventually pop that balloon. LC James: The other big thing, my other sort of ethical framework is I don't pay money to get treated like shit. I do not wait in line to spend my money. I don't like, you make me wait for it, I don't want it. So I'm not talking about like waiting in a checkout line. If you make me stand outside of your store when I know good and God damn well that there are people in that store who can help me, I will not buy anything in your store. My time is just as valuable. Like there's a re- and I also just won't spend money after I've been treated like shit. Which is why God bless those fabulous, you know, men. I will not go into 80s David Eustace. I've done too much self work and smoked too much sativa and cried to have my ego demolished by two people who act like extras from a Devil Wears Prada. And you can keep that in. Y'all be nice. Just be nice. Y'all make great fucking perfume and have a beautiful store. Be nice. Michy: Yeah Okay. LC James: Shit, mate. Josh: I do think like that is one of my big things is I love exploring perfumes and I do love I love finding the thing that resonates especially in a store full of beautiful perfumes and there is a particular retailer that we all know in Hollywood that you walk in you're met with the up down the cold shoulder you have to ask to smell anything and you have a 45 minute time limit to be in the store. How am I supposed to enjoy the art and the story of what we're having when I feel like I'm interacting with a human vending machine every time I ask to sample something? Michy: Yeah. LC James: you were supposed to go in with someone they knew. And then, whoa, yeah, and that was... You go in to this location that has recently been acquired by private equity. Couldn't happen to a nicer group of people. Really couldn't. And you know, it doesn't matter who you are. You'll get treated equally like shit until they see that you're with someone they know. Josh: you Michy: Okay. it. LC James: And that happened to me at one of those locations where I went in with somebody very well respected. I was about to be offered like champagne valet service for the bike I rode over. Like it was completely ridiculous. And I find that so insulting. Just like, just completely insulting. ⁓ so, but, but also those people don't care. Like that lot organization does not give a shit. because the business model has been about the acquisition of everything that they can get. And now the distribution of it. So they don't need to be nice. They don't give a shit. They think they're only joint in town. Michy: So this Josh: saying I should become like the true Minka Poti of the perfume TikTok but like to your point and that's not something I'd really considered. It's worth saying some of these things when it is going to protect and help people that I care about in this community that we're building. So I do appreciate that. LC James: It's enough, too, of talking about what... I mean, just to speak super plainly, what deals with what doubles you want to make. So for a lot of people, Sephora Squad is the pinnacle of lot of achievement, and rightly so, and well deserved. But understand that the agreement that you sign with Sephora Squad also comes with exclusivity clauses. It means you can't talk about certain things. It means that you have to promote certain other things. If that's not an issue for you... Michy: Okay. LC James: That's fine. That might be an issue for somebody else. So it's hard to find people willing to talk openly about that because the big thing that people have up on you is money and resources. And there will always be a content creator who will do it slightly worse than you for slightly less money. And I think people often see that get rewarded. And like it's... So I'm just, thinking about this and then my brain without any medication is also thinking about like what's happened to boy smells. And maybe that's a whole different conversation, but that's like political case study that I really want to talk about so badly is boy smells. Like maybe we can even talk about this differently, but the fact that how like Michy: Mm-hmm. Josh: Ooh, ooh, ooh. Michy: Yes. LC James: MAMA WHAT PART OF THIS IS GAY NOW?! LIKE WHAT ARE WE DOING?! LIKE YOU WENT FROM A ⁓ VERY GAY BRAND THAT USED TO SELL UNDERWEAR AND HAD A COWBOY CUSH TO NOW LIKE... IF I WAS RUNNING ADS IN BETWEEN Wattpad, One Direction, Fanfiction, for what 14 year old girls thought gay was, THIS IS WHAT IT WOULD LOOK LIKE! Michy: Yes, thank you so much. There, I don't think there has been a single episode that has gone by where we haven't expressed our disdain for the Boy Smells rebrand. Josh: Thank you. LC James: What are we doing?! ⁓ Josh: Again, I said it last episode and I'll say it this one, if Boy Smells doesn't have a hater, I am dead. Michy: Yep. LC James: think that makes two, I mean, and I point that out and it's, I think, a reoccurring theme because it is so egregious. If you're listening to this and you're like, this has been a lot of conjecture and perfume is not political and things don't change, well, then why did Boy Smell's do what it did? Why did Boy Smell's go from something with a great accessible price point with some weird fucking perfume? Swayed Pony was weird. It was good, but it was weird. I adored it. Michy: Yeah, I love Sweetpony. Josh: loved it. LC James: Hinoki Fantome was delicious. All of these candles, everything that was cheeky and very Los Angeles gay without being WeHo gay and fun to... I'm on TikTok Shop, I'm doing TikTok Shop Lives and I'm playing into the worst caricatures of what gay people are supposed to be. And I'm sleighbootsing the house down, mama. And all of the buzzwords that are supposed to make queer people these neat little consumers. But in the end, like, I don't want to buy a perfume called Sugar Baby from a brand that used to be so proud of how queer they were. Like, how can you look at that and not say it's a political reaction to an increasingly conservative social landscape? Don't think about what we used to do. Think about this great TikTok shop deal that we're going to have for you. Josh: And when you have people who enjoyed your fragrances and loved you because of your queer values, say this hurts my feelings as your consumer and as your fan, saying it's not that deep. Michy: Say. LC James: it's like you're absolutely right. It isn't and never were you. And it's another great example of, ⁓ of my big personal lines in the sand is artificial intelligence and the use of generative AI for, ⁓ I ⁓ been cussed out multiple times now from people that everybody loves, cause I had the gall to politely suggest that maybe just maybe shouldn't be doing this. Michy: you Mm-hmm. Ngh! LC James: and the justifications, and I get it. I understand it sounds like a moral accusation and if it does, that's because it is. ⁓ You can have these for, one of the things I think we can do to reclaim it is understand what's important and valuable to us and to not. Michy: Yeah. Josh: You LC James: This is good. I want to thread this needle very trickily. these people with a lot of money are paying better attention to how they can get more money out of you. And one of the things you can point to is this whole ridiculous, I'm at a very Chinese moment in my life and all of the kind of like Chinese fragrance conversation is marketing and the money put into marketing has gotten increasingly talented at pulling out what's culturally special or identifiable and marketing it to you. And so it's easy to prop up. a person of color as a creative director or founder and put a bunch of money into this really shallow facsimile of cultural identity. I have a thing about white chicks using different languages or their Tulum vacation to forge a whole consent identity. I have a thing about I really have think about Floraiku, actually, and I always will, and it's a long-term hatred of all of that. ⁓ And if you're not white, you're aware of this. When your identity is repackaged and sold to you, don't fucking buy it and listen when people are telling you that's what's happening. You really don't need to buy Mumbineoise. You don't. If you wanna buy the fucking birato, buy the fucking birato. Nobody can stop you at this point. Michy: No! Mm-hmm. LC James: But like, Anjali exists. Like, Peyosnum exists. You know what I mean? It's, it's, and that's what I talk about with like, maybe this will resonate with more people too. Empower yourself to think of yourself as St. Anthony Bourdain. Think of yourself as the experienced snob, because your nose is the experienced snob. And, and be open to the familiar and curious about the unfamiliar. Michy: ⁓ they're so good. Yeah. LC James: And stop and think for a second, there's a great episode of No Reservations where he's in Southern Italy and he talks about it being the worst episode of his life because it was so performative that he was supposed to dive off a boat and catch an octopus, but the guy was throwing dead octopus at him to catch for the show and he was disgusted with it. And this is my long attenuated metaphor to say, think about it like that. Is this brand throwing something cheaply performative at you that you're supposed to go dive after and catch and be excited about. leave it on the shelf, put it away. Like if that's, maybe that works for people. I hope it does. And there's a couple of brands that I can point you to and say, this is, you know, absolutely that. Michy: Yeah. Josh: think that's a great ⁓ kind of closing ritual here is as someone who was a delight to interview with, but also has phenomenal taste. What are some brands that you want to towards people towards? Michy: using this. Thank LC James: Yeah, this has been a delight. Thanks for letting me rant. A couple of things. So Elysium is the first one. So this is two Courtney's. This is Courtney Brunson and Courtney Raffey. This is a perfumer. They have an attachment oil that I love. It is Michy: . LC James: I don't believe in pheromone perfume. I do not believe in the scint-attracted nonsense attachment and the fragrance they have coming out in a couple of weeks. It might have slightly changed my opinion. But not towards pheromone, but just that there's witchcraft in it. And Courtney is quite good at this in general. There's a perfume she has from Universal Flowering called Holy Hell that smells like face planting into the carpet of a condo at Myrtle Beach in 2008 in a way that's so scarily good. ⁓ you know, Courtney is just, you know, I want to tease this because I have been wearing it. Michy: Yes. LC James: I don't know when you guys plan to have this go out, so I don't want to spoil her launch. It should be okay. So there's this perfume coming out called Mother's Milk, and it has the most insane, comforting, almost like breast milk accord. And I have been completely unsourced by it because the whole premise of it is... Michy: Like two weeks. Mmm. LC James: Like, let's make a fragrance that gets at the heart of lot of ⁓ humiliation and motherhood and interactions with people. So that's the kind of stuff that I think is really fun and crazy. My friend Mina from Good Dearest Unhappy is also just cool as fuck and fun and is, you know, excited about exploring the world from her perspective as a, you her cultural perspective and also she loves Gothic literature. So her newest fragrance is called Katarina's Dinner Party. It's inspired by the invention of gelato, which happened in Florence. Katarina de Medici, the one that stole chenonceau from the French, she invented it. It was called fiore de latte. So it's supposed to be this insane, delicious, bright orange blossom and ricotta and gelato fragrance, which I think is super, super cool. I always will shout out people who've been good to me too. you know, Arquiste. I think people overlook Arquiste because it's polished. You think it's some like long-standing luxury thing and it's hard to believe that it's really Carlos's talent and hard work and his self-funding and his sort of impeccable taste. ⁓ And if you haven't smelled Alexander, you should. ⁓ Arquise was the first Mexican American niche fragrance brand and it's something he's been doing for a very long time and has such a sophisticated understanding of the cultural interactions. that's just like, get the damn Arquise sampler set. It's like past time. Michy: Yeah. Josh: Yeah, mean, Poe is one of my all time favorites. then, ⁓ Misfits is fantastic. Elle and Aya are amazing. ⁓ could, Mishy, what's your favorite Arquist? LC James: The next one, yeah, it's a... Yeah. Michy: Yes, what I know. So I love our keys so much that they actually have their own trade that's separate from the entire cabinet because my husband and I both like to use them. So they have to be in between so we can both have access. But I have like six of them at this point. But I have not been able to stop thinking about Nanban since Scent Explorer. So that one will likely be my next one. But ⁓ yeah, I there's not a single one I don't love in the collection. LC James: It's a great example too of rewarding story. Like if you're theoretically a brand listening to this and wondering like how you do effectively communicate because one of the problems that we have in discussing politics is our absolutism and our black and white nature. ⁓ Cultural interaction and perfumes based on cultural exchange are how we make good perfume. So sometimes we can write off any notion of Michy: Mm-hmm. Mm LC James: cultural exploration as appropriation or exploitation. And Arquiste is a great example of how not to do that because it's so focused in specific story. You don't need to make grand sweeping claims. It's okay to tell like small, gentle, beautiful stories. It's also why I like, I'm looking over to see like what else I pulled out. I pulled out the Arquiste, I pulled out the Tough, Adapting, Happy. Oh, you know, and I don't work with them anymore, but. Michy: you LC James: I have so much love and affection for them, which is blocky. We are talking about like a progressive American heritage brand, people who are excited about American craftsmanship in a way that doesn't feel Mecca coded or weird or conservative. And it's really like an immigrant story. And the fragrances are, you know, a couple of them are super easy to wear and accessible. And some of them, like it's, Like for the impossible to please person who misses the original formulation of like Serge Luton-Tubarro's Criminale, like you hand them a blocky and it works. And in the same vein, I will shout out every single time Barbara Herman from Heiress Parfums because she never gets enough credit, because her book should be back in print. It was formative for me. Delta of Venus is the guava to end all guavas. Green Spell ⁓ is a tomato leaf to end all tomato leaf. Antoine Lee, the perfumer, is a great good egg and a genuinely wonderful human being. I will also, M triple X is another limited edition thing that's really, really, really, really good. These are all great things. And you can find this too, like, affordably, like, Allie from Pear Fat, Rabbit, like, all of these things that changed my opinion, like Rabbit Rabbit, you know, other great ones. I think we talked about Brown Sugar Babe. Michy: Yeah. Josh: Yes. LC James: Follow the people who you're like, I've never heard of them, this could be really interesting. It's how you'll find the coolest shit ever. Michy: You reminded me of this brand that we just got in when you're talking about telling like ⁓ the stories. ⁓ We got this brand into the store called Damn Fool. ⁓ And my God, they are so incredibly cool. So they are all for those who don't know, ⁓ they are all based ⁓ on So not the main characters, the background characters in the story ⁓ and them like front and center ⁓ and LC James: Yeah! Yes. Michy: Honestly, genuinely, there's so many of them in the collection that it was hard to focus in. But all day yesterday, I kept coming back and smelling and reading and I'm like, it's an incredibly fascinating brand. And if you really care about storytelling and if you really care about culture and perfume, it's definitely a great brand to check out. Josh: Yeah, echoing you with Eris was really one of those, it was the first brand where I had liked some of Anton's other works and did not acknowledge like a perfumer's DNA and how to feel that. And then I did the Eris discovery set and I was like, I love all of these. I even love Nightflower, which I should not. It has all of the notes I hate. And, ⁓ LC James: Yeah. Josh: Mix XXX is the only perfume I've had an allergic reaction to. Head to toe hives. It's either the Ambergris or the Hirassium. I'll never know. But I loved it. I was so sad. an allergic reaction. And Greenspell was one of those perfumes that was on my wish list from the day I smelled it up until last month when I finally was like, I'm just getting a bottle. Michy: Okay. Josh: There's never going to be a green fragrance that beats this. LC James: No. And there's one other I really want to shout out if I can, because it's the best sort of repository nobody knows about. It's called American Perfumer. So there's this guy in Louisville, Kentucky, his name is Dave Kern. He's a friend of mine, I do some work for him. And in addition to having a house collection of three fragrances with Dawn Spencer Hurts and Christophe L'Otemiol, every month he does an addition, like the commission fragrance with an independent perfumer. Michy: Yes. LC James: and he retails all of these people that you've never heard of that make the coolest shit. Amber Jobin from Aether Arts. I hate a chocolate-noded perfume. My chocolate is unreal, and I can barely do perfume oils. If you see me not talk about them much, because I have a similar reaction, like a lot of oil-based perfumes, I'm done for. I don't know what it is. I wish I did. That's why I don't review a lot of them. But there are these kinds of resources nobody knows about. ⁓ Debussy! from Pia Long and from Nick, ⁓ my God, Gilded. And you'll appreciate this, Gilded is like inspired by DS9 and the idea of like church in space with the Bajoran religion. Like you can't not want to buy it. And these are the stories that are being told by good people who really give a shit. And you know what the unifying factor is? None of their perfume, I think the most expensive perfume I just listed is probably a full bottle of Lord of the Week, which you don't. Josh: Yes. Michy: Yeah. LC James: But like... Michy: Chiquitos, wait, is that one a chiquito? LC James: It isn't a Chiquito. I think they're coming out later this year, but you also can't do a Versailles perfume and not put gold flake in it. you're kind of, there is a point where it's like, if you're going to do it, let's do it. But what I know is these fragrances aren't $400. They're not 350 because like, it's easy to crocheted it apart from the Marley, but it doesn't need to be. Especially when Rodrigo Flores Rue was doing a collab with Lamont Gourmand, who by the way, low key, some of the most supportive, incredible people in the industry work at Lamont Gourmand. Michy: Yeah. I love that. LC James: Um, and over there, she's fucking kick ass and she's giving Jade and Jade is earning what she deserves because I want pestilent. has an everything. Yeah. Check that shit out too. Pestilent. has that's how it's like. Yeah. It's like, I, I shout out my friends because I'm friends with, you know, the fortune be friends with good people who make great perfume. So check out what they're doing. Cause it's infinitely cooler than anything I say. Michy: Yeah. You mentioned P along and I absolutely think everybody should read demo chords. I am obsessed with it at the moment. I cannot put it down. Josh: on the way. LC James: Yes, and read everything that Gilbert's ever written. He's so good. He's so, so good. Fuck Lucaturne. Read these people. Like, seriously. And I get to say that because I'm nobody on Instagram, but I do mean it. Michy: Yeah LC James: Like that's, and that's the final thing I'll leave all of you with if I can. And I'm be talking about this next month at Fume. I'm doing a perfume writing workshop where you can just like bring yourself, I'm good, like you're gonna get three random perfumes and we're gonna talk about them from a DeVaille theater structure. You are all the authority you need to decide if you like a fragrance. You actually don't, influencer might point you in the right direction. It might help you curate things. It might give you some, some guides, but trust your own nose. I've been saying it since the. Michy: you LC James: First week I logged on to TikTok. Everything you need to decide if you like a perfume is already in your brain and your nose. Trust that. You don't need to be anybody to write and to think and to speak meaningfully about perfume. You just need to know what you like and to have a moral framework around it. And once you do that, everything else falls into place, truly. Michy: I agree so much. We can't wait. We're gonna see you at Fume too. We will be there. Yeah. LC James: Okay, amazing! I'm like nervous and excited. We'll see if anybody shows up. Michy: I think it's gonna be great. I think we're gonna have a great time. Josh: Lots of people are showing up. LC James: Yeah, um, I think Pushback is hosting. You guys are get there on Friday? Yeah, Pushback's doing it. Are you guys, are you guys working as well? Michy: Yeah. Yeah, we're technically sponsors. LC James: ⁓ shit, that's great! Michy: Yeah! Josh: announcement that we're officially partners with Fumed from our last week episode. Michy: Yes. LC James: That's amazing, I love that! That was great, yeah I know Kyle is, and then that's a spoiler because Kyle's the perfumer for my fragrance. So it's like deliciously incestuous. ⁓ Michy: you ⁓ yes. ⁓ I love it. LC James: Yep, that's the little plug if I can do a shameless plug, which is later here. So my brand is called Esther Carey Jane. It's named for my three grandmothers for what is, what was, and what could be. So it's kind of exploring perfume as pieces of alternate histories. So the first one is art thieves. The underpinning of every perfume is a what if question. So this is what if you got away with it. Michy: Yes, please, plug it all. LC James: It's, ⁓ you know, on the surface kind of a tribute to my favorite genre of movies, which are heist movies. And these kind of range from the Thomas Crown Affair to things like the Monuments Men and Women in Gold. But also a larger comment around how easy it is to steal from people and steal from cultures. So if you dropped a Botticelli in an herb garden in Florence because you thought that your girlfriend you were trying to get back wanted that more than anything, what would it smell like? So that is art thieves. which you can smell it for you in the next month if you want. Michy: I'm so excited! Josh: Locked in. LC James: Yeah, thanks for letting me preview that and vamp that. We've got that. And then later this year, I will just give you the name and that and I will tell you that we shot Creative for It at midnight in Venice last February and it is called The Vampire's Niece, which is what if you could walk home safe alone at night. So that will be 2026 ⁓ for, you know, I'm speaking into the universe and it has to happen. Michy: Bye. ⁓ my God. I am so excited for you. I'm so proud of you. I cannot wait to support this. LC James: Thank you. 30 mil, 98 dollars, no cap. That's what we're doing. Josh: Yes. Michy: Very excited. ⁓ LC James: So I am, thank you all for having me. Thanks for letting me talk and ramble at you so late at night. And let me know if there's anything else you need from me. Josh: This is perfect. Michy: Thank you, such a pleasure, Elsie, really. You too. Bye. Josh: Yeah, thank you. LC James: All right, have a great night, you guys. Bye.