Josh: So what is a memory tied descent that you hope to carry with you your entire life? Dana: The scent of my mom's neck. Yeah. Muzzling in. I mean, I d I can't explain it. It just smells like my mother. ⁓ that's the one scent I cannot explain. Everything I make smells fantastic on her, which is really I'm like, is this biology? Is this what is this happening? Or like everything that you wear I like. ⁓ but yeah, it's warm, it's inviting. It'll have like a leftover perfume, whatever she's wearing. Michelle DeLorenzo: I love that. What did it smell like? Mm. Mm-hmm. Dana: Yeah, my mama. Michelle DeLorenzo: I love that. So for those of you who don't know, we are so honored today to have Donna Amastri here today of Jasmine Sarai. ⁓ we got to meet when we were all at Centfest and it was such a pleasure to meet you and listening to you on the panel. We knew, like, ⁓ yeah, we we gotta talk to her. Yeah. Dana: Thanks for coming for joining. That was really nice to see the faces in the crowd. Michelle DeLorenzo: Can you tell the folks a little bit about Jasmine Sarai and your work? Dana: Jasmine Sarai was established almost 13 years ago, officially in 2014. It's where I started out exploring mostly scent and music and the convergence of both because I have ⁓ synesthesia, or I discovered that I had synesthesia in perfume school. So Basically, I just saw so many ⁓ commonalities between the two and I decided that's how I wanted to start. And then I kind of pivoted into scent music and culture for a variety of reasons, some of which I can share. Michelle DeLorenzo: Awesome. Josh: And before Jasmine Sarai, what role did scent play in your life? Dana: I grew up in Dubai, so I'm half Lebanese and half Egyptian, and I kind of went back and forth to to both Lebanon and Egypt in the summers, and I lived in Dubai, which has a very strong matrilineal olfactory culture. So it was pretty much everywhere, and it's part of Arabic culture in terms of language and poetry and just how much we are connected to our sense of smell. So it's played a pretty major role. From a small or a young age, I just didn't realize that I could do it as a job until my like early twenties. But I mean, my grandparents' garden, all the all the fruits and jasmine that grew there, my mom's perfumes, ⁓ my dad's perfumes, my both both my grandparents, my Egyptian grandparents loved scent, my Lebanese grandmother loved scent. So it was really just kind of natural in a lot of ways. Not surprising. But to everyone in my family it was. They're like, What do you mean smell? What do you mean? Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. It's something we I feel like until you know people the light bulb goes off, it's something we really take for granted and how much like the the smells that surround us that we grew up with shape who we are as people and shape our our memories. But ⁓ are there so looking back, were you always telling stories but hadn't found fragrance as your medium yet? Dana: Exactly. A hundred percent. So I have a bachelor's in communication studies and that was my way of going into sound production and music. And I wanted to sing. and that dream kind of deflated quite quickly. And once I found perfumery, I was like, wait, this is fascinating. It has science, art, philosophy, psychology, spirituality, poetry, ⁓ nature, ⁓ like everything you could possibly imagine, right? And I never really fit in to certain things. And I was a fine student, but it wasn't there wasn't anything that I really like loved or really connected with. So once I found perfumery, I'm like, this is amazing. It's like a convergence of all of these different worlds. And you'll never stop learning. ⁓ so there's just always something new to to learn, whether it's anthropological or environmental or political. Like there's just so many layers to it, ⁓ that I I figured I'd never get bored and I haven't so far. Josh: Yeah, I think we've experienced just how intersectional fragrance is. There's really not a piece of human society or culture that you can't tether perfume to. ⁓ and I I think that's what makes it in enchanting to sit down with every individual person who has come to fragrance at some point in their life, because every story and every road is so different. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Dana: Exactly. I know it gives me chills every time. I really do love talking to people who have found all faction as either a medium to express themselves or a medium ⁓ as part of their career or as part of ⁓ another intersectional practice or an interdisciplinary practice in their own work, ⁓ or even just being aware of their sense of smell and and enjoying that, right? Yeah. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. I think we talked a little bit with ⁓ with Michael about it too and how so many perfumers, especially indie perfumers, this is in some cases their their second, third career. And, you know, I I wonder for, you know, the youth growing up and how popular fragrance is now with teens, what that's gonna mean for the industry now that they know that this is not just something that you wear, but this is a career path that you could possibly take. It's it's exciting to think about on my end. Dana: For sure, absolutely. And this was my plan B, plan C, plan D only plan, you know. Perfumery has been my thing for the last sixteen, seventeen years almost, you know? Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Josh: It's crazy thinking back to like just how much fragrance culture changes year to year, let alone over over a decade. Dana: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's true. Yeah. Let alone last three, five years. It changes so fast. Yeah. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So going going off of our questions for a minute, what would you say the some of the biggest changes from when, you know, even just five years ago to now? Dana: AI or a lot more AI ⁓ being used either on a large you know corporate scale or AI in marketing fragrance. I would also say the amount of indies has skyrocketed ⁓ to a point where it's almost impossible to count. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm Yep. And Dana: So I'm all for that as long as there is respect for the craft and like immense knowledge because TikTok is really great and it's catapulted the fragrance industry in a lot of different ways, which is so exciting. But we have to remember that you still can't smell on social media. And perfumers are not content creators, and that also creates a whole Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Dana: lot of like issues. And so the people who are more comfortable in front of a camera who are like, hey, this is our this is the journey that I'm on. And I'm teaching workshops while I learn is something I get a little weary about because you can't be teaching while you're learning. Like active learning, if that makes sense. ⁓ Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ very much agree. Dana: Yeah. And so I always say this, and I'm sure other perfumers have too, is that it's such a responsibility to put anything on anyone's skin. especially on a larger scale, like more than 50 people is still pretty large. You know, you have one in 50 or five in fifty chances of a reaction or some sort of anything, and you you as a perfumer need to know exactly what's in your formula. You need to be adamant about Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Dana: your confidence in that formula and the research and regulation that you've done in anything that you put out to the public. Josh: A an interesting tie-in there is w and we had this conversation, I don't remember, it might have been with Michael in his first episode actually, was around ⁓ AI and large language models are built to be helpful. And if you ask it a question, it will give you a lengthy answer. It just might not be correct. And there's something about the way people who are coming from an uninformed point of view getting a lot of information mistake it for competency. Dana: Mm. Exactly. Josh: And it's it's bringing us into a really weird new area where we don't have a word for this idea that you think you know what you're doing because you've been told information, but that information isn't correct because it was a hallucination. Michelle DeLorenzo: Could probably do a whole a ⁓ whole episode on AI psychosis in the in the perfume world. Dana: No notes those problems. Josh: Yeah, I'm Michelle DeLorenzo: Ha ha ha. Josh: Very interested to understand. Dana: I mean at our panel, right? You were at our panel, so Yeah. Saw the plant. That was Michelle DeLorenzo: Yep. ⁓ yeah. I I felt the I felt the tension in the room freeze when somebody asked that question. Josh: Yeah. Yeah. Dana: I mean none of us knew how to answer that question and he was sitting right next to someone who it's complicated. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah, very complicated. Yeah. Dana: You know, and so it was like and none of us were prepared for that question because it wasn't Damiana's question, the moderator. Right. And so it's a bit different when it's an audience question that comes from like authenticity or curiosity versus what do you think about something that we're selling? And we're here to catch you off guard in order for you to express potentially an opinion that we may or may not agree with in order for us to use or not use that in public. Josh: Mm-hmm. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Dana: Against you or not against you. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Mm hmm. So it was a very much a a gat get gotcha moment. Yeah. I think you did. I think it was a great job. Dana: Almost, almost. I think we did a pretty good job. No, one of the other perfumers said he had no opinion. That's a that's a good answer, I guess. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Josh: Yeah. I there is something with the conversations around AI, and I I am gonna have a conversation around AI next month. ⁓ where on especially on the internet, nuance is dead. So being able to talk about it as a tool, it is an environmental impact, it is a political impact, and it as a creative impact are all completely separate conversations and people often need to reduce it into simply black and white. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: There's a whole episode should be had Dana: Mm-hmm. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah, yeah. ⁓ Dana: I mean, I talk about nuance a lot in perfumery too. And people get like kind of like, why? I'm like, why not? Why can't we have nuance? Whether it's cultural nuance, personal nuance, like, why can't we know who's who and what does what and what expresses what and what comes from where? Like, why not? We're also in the age of so-called intelligence, right? And so if this is Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Dana: To me, the age of Aquarius, which I'm all about, it's like, okay, well, we're we're harvesting knowledge. We're we're creating community. And I'm not trying to use community as a buzzword. We're trying to c create a community in where in which we are in energetically linked. And we're so divided over so many things, but this Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Dana: All of these new technologies are dividing us further. Because if you look at the art of perfumery and the act of perfumery, it is historically analogue. You know? And that's ⁓ I think a lot of perfumers love that and are trying really hard to kind of keep that essence alive. Because again, yes, you know, Google and other tech companies have come out with. You know, certain technologies where we can send each other sent a texts and I don't know what, but it's not really the same as hugging your mother. It's not the same as holding your friend's hand. It's not the same as I hate this term, but fraghead going to like, you know, just enjoying perfume shopping together and having that experience. Like that's such a that's such a vulnerable experience because as you're sharing. A perfume, you're sharing your identity, your memory, your experiences. It's not just like, ⁓ do you like this or do you not like this? It's so much further than that. Every conversation is deep and we can't have those authentic, nuanced conversations online anymore. Because there's, you know, we're we're faking it a lot of the time. And it's so hard for me to hide my struggle. And I'm told, like, as a business person, I I need to not show it. But it's like, Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Dana: My the essence of my work needs emotion and feeling and realness, you know? And the more I lie publicly, the more I do a disservice to myself and others. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. No, I agree. I think the nuance is I think with short form content, the idea of nuance has gone out the window because we no longer have the attention spans to to accept and really dissect those things. So you have to get in at those buzzwords in that minute and a half to keep people's attention. And anything else that you might deem unimportant gets left behind. And those that's the important parts of the conversation that, you know you know, two things can be true at once. We can we can use AI as a tool, but it shouldn't overtake our artistic properties, you know? And ⁓ yeah, it's it's I have very multifaceted ideas ⁓ and struggles with AI and many other things in the fragrance industry, but that's why we started a podcast. ⁓ Josh: Yeah. Dana: I started one and I had to edit all my episodes and I got over it real quick. I'm not gonna lie. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Yeah. Shout out to Adam. Josh: Yeah. That's why we have Adam. We love Adam. Thank you. Dana: Yes, I but also not just ⁓ sorry to interrupt you, it's also IP. So AI is gonna cause more issues with IP and IP is already an existing problem in our industry that has not been solved at all. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Josh: was just reading like not even fifteen minutes ago the Van Lewen Rebel Creamery IP lawsuit between the two ice cream brands. ⁓ like twenty three million dollars in damages awarded to Van Luen over Rebel essentially copying their style. Michelle DeLorenzo: ⁓ no. ⁓ my gosh. Dana: Their branding style or their ice cream style? Josh: Branding style. Dana: Hmm. Josh: It was it was an interesting read 'cause Rebel, for some reason, their lawyers decided to go on the fact that ⁓ high end ice cream just looks like that. There's no other option. Dana: I'm curious 'cause I was, you know, living in New York, I was a big Ben Lehman fan. ⁓ Josh: Yeah. IP ⁓ aside. Dana: But I I mean I think in perfumery you could probably sue for a name, but that's it. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Josh: Right. 'Cause Dana: Not even branding. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Yeah. I know there was a I think there was a lawsuit for with Dior versus Mason Alhambra a few years ago because they were making dupes of the Prevee line that were very similar in name, but also the bottles look exactly like what they were putting out. And I think they were able to, I think they were able to win that one because I think they've rebranded those bottles since. Dana: I mean That's packaging. But in any case, a Santa Anna package that's a double whammy. That they definitely have it. But look at like Sophia Groshman and Trezor. That was like a French Supreme Court issue. I think it was like a Czech company. I I may be mistaken, Polish or Czech, Eastern European of some kind, and they copied Trezor. And the French Supreme Court denied Lancôme's lawsuit because sent is subjective. Even though Anyone who smells a Sophia Groshman perfume will know that that's something that she created, you know, and that's the power of a perfumer's signature style, you know? And her absolute genius. Which, you know, don't get me started about the women who don't get their due and credit and perfumery, but I'll keep that for another time. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Mm. We might have to do a a multi part series. Josh: We might get into Yeah. Dana: I know, I'm done. Josh: Yeah, looking at the the the original conversation around kind of nuance and fragrance and particularly your experience, f for you, what is it that the analog perfumery communicates that other avenues and art forms did not? Dana: Well slowness. Intuition Mm it's its ability to weave through mediums in a way. ⁓ what else? Yeah, I think that's it. Did I write anything else down? Hold on though. Because I actually I actually Michelle DeLorenzo: I love that. Josh: I I never want to do gotcha journalism, so I send out all the questions in advance. Dana: ⁓ I appreciate it. No. Michelle DeLorenzo: And then I usually derail things with other questions. Dana: I love that yeah, that's generally yeah, that's generally how my mind works. But I'm just trying to figure out where that question is because I did answer it. Josh: That's how it works. It's the the second portion. ⁓ but yeah, sometimes we get people who hop on and they're like, What questions are we talking about? I'm like, ⁓ there's a whole email thread, but sure, let's go for it. Dana: Yeah, I think I answered it. How do you feel about my answer? Michelle DeLorenzo: Okay, great. Yeah. Good. ⁓ so we'll jump into we'll jump back in with the with the next one in that, and that is so do you think that sound that do you think that scent and fragrance ⁓ allow people to experience memory different than other mediums? Dana: Naturally, just because it's part of our ⁓ limbic system and where we process memory and emotion. So absolutely. It's primal. Yeah. Josh: I also think I mean you are it you've kind of worked across many different disciplines. You've been an educator, a writer, a consultant, a lecturer, you're obviously a perfumer. Which role kind of changed your thinking about fragrance the most? Dana: Say ⁓ as a lecturer or educator, ⁓ it twofold. One because I had to do I had to go back into all of what I had learned and do more research, which is always a good thing. ⁓ so I learned more about what I teach. I never want to to teach anything I'm not a hundred percent knowledgeable about, and then also finding a way to express that to others, ⁓ And being able to deal with so many different personalities and thought processes and questions, ⁓ you know, that's always a really, really great process. I think sharing knowledge in perfumery is imperative and I I'm happy to share as long it doesn't as long as it's credited, which is Michelle DeLorenzo: Okay. Dana: ⁓ and then as an interdisciplinary artist for sure, once I found perfumery, I realized, okay, now I can use this as my main medium and incorporate my music, incorporate my visual, incorporate my ceramics, incorporate all of these different elements. And it also helps me understand other artists and see where we can incorporate sense because there's so many places where it's like, ⁓ yeah, we're multi-sensory, but they never think about smell. So I go, Did you think about that? You know, you have a speaker and you have an HVAC, all you need is like a little thingy here and you're adding an entire sensory experience. Just just saying. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Dana: So I say that's those. Josh: Yeah, have you I love that. Have you ⁓ had a chance to experience any of ⁓ Yonsei from Fisher Soon's installation work? Dana: Sadly, no. It looks fast and Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: I think he has some really amazing ones. There was one installation that r it caught me off guard just because of the technical capability, but it was a series of steel plates that were wired to resonate. So they were hanging in the space. And then he had corroded them to where each one resonated at a different frequency, but when you stood in the middle of the room you could feel all of them. Dana: Well That's beautiful. Josh: in people that were kind of passively walking through the room, I heard a lot of mutterings of like, ⁓ it's just steel plates and I'm like, No, you're not you're not tapping into the other parts of what this is. Michelle DeLorenzo: Okay. Dana: Well that's because I've noticed that olfactory art is the only type of art where you have to explain that it's there. Because we're so disconnected from our sense of smell that we're all we're more attuned to reading the the gallery text or looking at the space itself or listening. But going in there and smelling no. There's no way any Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Josh: Right. Dana: Any installation I have done, I've had to be like smell here, or please go inside, or like there has to be some sort of prompt because there's an inherent hesitancy. And I think it's changed a bit more in the last let's say let's say 10 years or so, with the emergence of more olfactory art and installations and olfactory art being recognized as an important art form. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Dana: But there's still a hesitancy and a level of awareness that just requires awareness and perception. And that's not something you can do for anyone unless you literally spell it out. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. No, it's it's definitely it's a it's a lack of mindfulness that I think we you know, I I'm someone who's always had a very strong sense of smell. So I don't really know what it's like to not perceive scent in a space. My husband has always thought I'm kind of crazy that I can smell something. I'm like, ⁓ no, there's there's there's something, you know, rotten in in the cabinet in the back of the fridge, you know? ⁓ so Josh: Yeah. Dana: That's just survivor instinct kicking in. Michelle DeLorenzo: ⁓ absolutely. But it's so I don't know really what it's like to exist in that in that sense of not really being aware of the the the scent around me. But to me it's it's slowing down and really like picking it apart is a mindful ex mindfulness exercise for myself that I think we're often in such a rush to get through things that we're we're forgetting that piece. ⁓ Dana: Absolutely. Whoever came up with Stop and Smell the Roses was like next level mindful genius, you know. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yep, absolutely. Josh: We'll combine that with the the modern touchgrass. And we're starting to get somewhere. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Dana: Yeah, but who's touching grass and smelling it? Nobody. Except for maybe and maybe you Michelle DeLorenzo: Nut Yeah. I love the smell of grass. Dana: And maybe anyone else Me too. Cis three hexanol and cis three hexanyl acetate all the way. But not everyone's gonna do that. They're gonna focus on the physical sensation more than they're going to focus on a and this is generally speaking. Anyone who's watching this podcast is is ⁓ obviously obsessed with smell. We're not talking to honeys. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Yeah, true. ⁓ Josh: Yeah. I would be remiss we're talking about grass. Have you had a chance to smell Ethernet by ⁓ Haney? Dana: Not yet, no. Josh: So good. it's I I thought it was a very fun, like tongue-in-cheek address to the the digital age and everything. And ⁓ but actually smelling it, it immediately I I think I said it on TikTok, put me back to ⁓ my grandmother lived in a trailer on property that we grew up on. And when she passed away we sold that and the trailer left. And I remember being young and like in the summer laying in the spot where that trailer used to be in the tall grass. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Dana: Yeah. Josh: And Ethernet just brings back that like tall, dry summer grass moving around you. I love that that fragrance a lot. Michelle DeLorenzo: Hmm. So ⁓ your work often evokes places, but not just geographically, but also in an emotional sense. So what does place mean to you when you're composing a fragrance? Dana: I had a hard time with this question. I thought about it deeply, and because I have a complicated sense with belonging, ⁓ I can answer it two ways. One literally, where I'm trying to express an actual place in order for you to experience that place through a more ⁓ accurate, nuanced point of view. And then the other is more philosoph philosophical. It's more of like, how can I create a sense of peace and place within myself and help you find that within you? Especially because so many of us are just kind of separated and all over the place and some of us are immigrants and some of us are half halves and mixed and all of these different things. It's like, well, yeah, how can I find a place for you and for me to to stay almost grounded? And that is the place that I'm searching for. Josh: Interesting. I love that. I think you know, you mentioned you've lived kind of between several cultures. You're ⁓ grew up in Dubai, you've lived in Canada, in France, in both coasts of the US. Do you think that experience has made you more attentive to this idea of what it would mean to belong? Dana: it's been my lifelong struggle, so I find that it's made it harder. Actually. My parents' cultures, even though they're outwardly Arab, one is more Mediterranean and one is more North African. So inherently they're different. Even the dialect is different, the intonation is different, the humor is different. So and then growing up in Dubai, where it was all about like class and this idea of of success that didn't really exist. ⁓ And the hierarchies of countries, so my countries were considered lower in the hierarchy of things because of their social status, the economy, the way some of them speak. Like there's all of these different classist racial layers, even within our own cultures. And in Dubai, you're never really from there. So even though my name is Dana, which means Pearl. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Dana: Of the Persian Gulf, and my aunts lived there forever, and my grandparents lived there for 35 plus years. You can't retire there, or you couldn't at the time. So you're still considered foreign. And then I come to Canada, and Canada markets acceptance, right? And markets this international, global, multicultural situation. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Dana: It's unfortunately not true. And the life of an immigrant in North America, no, no matter where in North America, is extremely difficult because this American dream also is the Canadian dream, right? And then you think you're going to Canada and you're closer to the American dream, but you're not really. ⁓ Michelle DeLorenzo: D. Dana: No matter how much you do for the community there and for pushing all factions forward, you're still not one of them. So no matter where I go, I'm still not one of them. If I go to Egypt, I'm still not one of them. If I go to Lebanon, I'm still not one of them. If I go to Dubai, absolutely not. I'm technically Canadian, but I was prouder in that moment than both of my degrees combined, because it took almost a decade. Then being an immigrant in the United States and running a business has been madness. Madness. First, I was the in-house perfumer at Joya on a visa where they tested my English. And I mean, I obviously passed. And then in that, there were it was 2016, Trump got elected. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Josh: Yeah. Dana: Everything went to shit. There was major anti-Muslim sentiment and a bunch of other things and all this chaos happening with me. It's taken me 10 years as an immigrant to try to get to the United States. So 10, 15 years in Canada being an immigrant and then doing the same thing and starting over. So I'm I'm crazy. Like I'm absolutely batch it for starting over in some of the hardest cities in the world. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Dana: and so I don't have a balance. I can't, I mean, I'm I'm extremely attentive, yes, to wanting to belong, but I don't actually know if I do anywhere. And now I'm in LA and it took me 20 years to get here, and I'm still on eggshells, right? Everything politically has been insane, socially insane. We've had fires, we've had like LA is falling apart as a city. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Dana: And I'm here and I'm like, whoa, what's happening? And then I almost die because I have like a tumor and surgery and a bunch of other crazy things. And I'm like, am I supposed to be here? Where do I belong? Where do I belong? And that's a question that I literally my parents told me I asked them when I was four or five years old. So I don't know how to answer that question. What what perfume does for me or scent? Michelle DeLorenzo: Wow. Dana: Is like it sent a solace to me because it exists in the ether, it exists in the in-between. It doesn't have to be in one place or another, and it could be so many different things. So I feel like I belong there, but I don't know if I belong in the world yet. If that makes sense. It's a long answer. Michelle DeLorenzo: It's a it's a brilliant answer. Josh: ⁓ but it absolutely does. I mean, I think a lot of people spend their entire lives trying to define where they're from. And to your point, and especially hearing about your story and your perspective, your work asks whether we're allowed to stretch across several places at once and exist in that kind of liminal space. And in that aspect, do you feel like fragrance is helping you reconcile those identities? Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Dana: I try, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, even in perfume school, you know, it's like I come in and they perceive me as this Arab Canadian, right? And even in that perception alone, it wasn't accurate. And then my perception of perfume school also wasn't accurate. You know, I didn't expect so much like pushback with certain things. ⁓ and it was all cultural. I don't know if I answered your question. Michelle DeLorenzo: No, d definitely. Do you is that because like a a lot of perfumery school is still very Eurocentric in the way that they're thinking about fragrance and not necessarily like raw materials and where they're from? Josh: I think so. Dana: Yeah, I believe 16 years later I was a token hire in a way. You know, I got into school because of my background, ethnicity, and I had a great story. I'm a great writer, so I wrote a beautiful story about my history with with scent. But going in there, the way that I was perceived, whether it was my personality, my emotion, right, my expression of emotion. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Dana: My need to debate and need to debate incorrect information presented to me about my cultures. You know? Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Mm. ⁓ yeah. Dana: Saying things and I'd be like, what are you saying? This isn't even real. Wait, what? And then I realize also this is a dissemination process because a lot of the perfumes that my parents and my grandparents wore were French perfume. And we have this thing in Arabic called Khawega, which translates to foreigner's complex. And this is a colonized mind that all of us are trying to dispel and and unlearn, right? Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Dana: But the concept of French, Italian, British being better, or being more prestigious, or ⁓ being more Like higher luxury, blah blah blah. I started to be like, wait, what is this? Wait, we're been we've been thinking this is all beautiful, but they've been actually taking inspiration from all of our cultures. They're mixing up all of these cultures on top of each other, claiming that they're French, and it's highly problematic. And that became problematic between me and the genealogy teacher. And Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Dana: Which is one of the reasons I teach the tracing perfume classes. I'm like, I want to teach classes that I wanted to be in. Why are we not talking about cultural history? Why are we not talking about where the material is from? Why are we not talking about who is cultivating these materials? Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. 'Cause it's and harvesting them. Exactly. It's it's a difficult conversation that people don't wanna they don't wanna know the harsh truths about where that's all coming from and what the people's lives look like who are who are harvesting it in the fields and and working anybody who has not read House of Beauty by ⁓ by Arabelle needs to read it immediately. we said it before, I will say it again, but ⁓ yeah, it's Josh: And harvesting them, and who's profiting off of them? Dana: Exactly Exactly. Michelle DeLorenzo: It's an inconvenient truth, right? We don't want to see those things because then that luxury item feels tainted to us and it doesn't it you're not going to be able to sell it if it has this this sort of shadow hanging over it, right? I think one of my favorite moments over ⁓ like when when the all the tariffs were first announced was all of the ⁓ all the factories in China exposing all the luxury brands of, hey, so you know, we actually make that here and it's just stamped and maybe the hardware is sewn on there, but 95% of your luxury products are made here, but you think the stuff that comes here is the cheap stuff. ⁓ it was such a beautiful moment. Dana: It's complicated because if you if you think about perfumery for the last hundred years or so, it has basically piggybacked on the idea of of fantasy, right? And so if we remove the fantasy, the mirage, the scented mirage that that has been created by the French, ⁓ Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Dana: And it's steeped in prejudice. And that prejudice cannot be removed because that prejudice is, I'm sorry to say, inherently part of the culture. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Josh: Y I mean yes, the I we've talked about this a few times I think, the way that the French luxury culture, not just scent culture, is derived from its colonial and imperial past. They're intrinsically intertwined for generations. You can't simply unlink them. Dana: I know you'd be surprised how many people push back when I say that perfumery is orientalist and I just tell them, hey, listen, it's the same time, same time frame, little baby decade, not even, maybe two or three years, where Orientalist art emerged. So how are you how are you not how are you denying this, but acknowledging finally. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Dana: Orientalist art and its origins and its the its problematic nature, right? Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Yeah. Josh: And when the cultures are acknowledged, they're often reduced to a monolith. And it's this idea of the exotic Arab world, which they call the Middle East, and then they say, you know, the Silk Road, and they don't talk about the dozens of countries and cultures that that spans and the histories related to them. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Dana: Exactly. Like I'll have like maps. Like this is this is where it came from. Then they stopped here. A bunch of people stole that from there. Then they brought it over here. These guys sold it legally, but then these guys took it somewhere else. You know? And for me the Middle East and this exotification of stuff, like even me, people will be like, ⁓ you're Princess Jasmine, you should like Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Dana: Be in the movie, or ⁓ my God, you're so oriental or you're so exotic. And I'm like, these are not compliments. And then I get called problematic because I'm pushing against that and saying there or like argumentative, right? Because I'm pushing back and saying, well, no, actually that's not true. And also Middle East, Middle East of where? Like again, I'm from two different countries, and neither one of them actively uses Rude in their culture. Like it's just not a part of it. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Mm. Dana: Dubai, the UAE, Kuwait, GCC, yes. And I say GCC specifically because Iraq and Yemen are also on the Arabian Peninsula, but are war-torn and are not part of the GCC. So they're literally surround this very, very, very specific corporation council that historically they were Bedouins. Some of them are related to each other, some are not. They're all tribes. And they're all speaking a very specific dialect specific to them, which has nothing to do with Egypt, even Mauritania. Like, just look up the Arab League. There's like 27 countries in there. Okay? That's just like minimum. And then Rud is not Arab. It's not an Arabic material. It's not an Arab person. Rud in Arabic refers to wood or the loot. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Dana: Beautiful loot. That's it. Rud comes from Laos, Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam. Went through India. India goes into what? Zanzibar, Oman. You'll see that. Oman, why? All of this South Asian influence, you'll see that in food. They'll use musk and cinnamon and like a bunch of different spices and scent materials in their cuisine. So it's like it's just geography. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. No. Dana: It's literally just geography, you know? Michelle DeLorenzo: Which Americans are notoriously terrible at. ⁓ Dana: I heard that and I'm so sorry. It's not your fault. It's not your fault. But like sometimes ⁓ my answers like when I say something and s I get a response and I just go, Really? Michelle DeLorenzo: Ha ha ha Josh: It's I mean, it's a very small anecdote, but I took four years of Arabic in college and ⁓ I have a religious studies degree. So studying the Abrahamic religions and their sociological impacts on the world. ⁓ but we were supposed to learn the Egyptian dialect because that was like the proper newscaster, like diplomat dialect. I'm not particularly good at like flashcard studying, so I listen to a lot of music. Dana: Mm. Mm-hmm. Josh: And I really fell in love with Mashra Leila. And yes. So I kept getting in trouble in my oral exams 'cause they like, You sound Lebanese. You're you it's too slangy, it's too lispy, it's it's not crisp enough. And I was like, But it's Arabic. And they're like, No, no, it's not. They're different dialects. Dana: Denise. It's so funny that you say that, Josh, because Mashrua Leila, ⁓ which translates to Layla's Project, is an openly queer band. And they have dealt with a lot of problems for just being themselves. The style that Hamid Sinno sings in is a style that was like Loki inspired by this band called Soap Kills that was also Lebanese back in the 80s. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Dana: And it's it's kind of like a s it is a stretched out dialect. So it's I would laugh my buns off to hear you ⁓ after this sing me a line because it's not at all how even like Lebanese people sing. It's like it's so specific to Mashro Laila and Hamid Sinnoh that it's like his singing style, even. You know what I mean? Michelle DeLorenzo: Ha ha ha. Josh: Yeah, I mean I listen to like a whole playlist. I do particularly love love them. I I like the the album that Fastine is on. I I really I have it still saved in my iTunes. ⁓ but yeah, it was just very funny 'cause they were like, no, this isn't correct. But like I'm picking up vocabulary though. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Dana: Yeah. Yeah. Michelle DeLorenzo: No Dana: Egyptian music though. There's so much Egyptian music and it's really easy to understand. Or like to pick up on. Josh: I I picked the hard one. Dana: Yeah, there's like a lot of Egyptian pop and stuff like that. I'm happy to send you some just for dancing. And the Egyptians are really good with their metaphors. Like, you know, if you're a sweetie, they'll call you a strawberry. Or there's a lot of fruit metaphors. Michelle DeLorenzo: Okay. ⁓ Josh: Sure. ⁓ Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: Interesting. I I also remember there's a big fascination in like ⁓ Dubai, the UAE on like Korean dramas and soap operas are apparently quite heavily consumed there. So there's like a weird cross with like Korean folklore in the UAE. It was it was a very ⁓ interesting learning experience. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Okay. Dana: We had a lot of ⁓ media from East Asia in general. We also had a lot of anime translated or dubbed in Arabic, which was really funny. so I'm not surprised that the Koreans have made it to Dubai. Not at all. I mean K-pop is like everywhere. K-pop would not make it there, you know? Michelle DeLorenzo: Everywhere. Josh: On on the note. Michelle DeLorenzo: Certainly in my car every morning, constantly for my children. Josh: On the note of music, ⁓ you've mentioned that music plays a really important role in your process and in your perfumes. How do sound and scent inform one another for you? Dana: I mean in every way, so they're wavelengthy, they work on a wavelength. ⁓ you can normalize them, you can have shapes, ⁓ they're both durational. some can have rhythm, some can have a melody. They both strike you in the same way. So, you know, like a music or a song or a song or ⁓ ascent. you don't have time to intellectualize it, you know, it just happens. And so you're feeling in that moment. They're both heavily feeling. And then I was obviously very research-based. So I went into Septimus Pius's work and was very deeply inspired by his like equation of of accords to to smells or to certain materials. ⁓ And then obviously like a lot of the metaphor and language and perfumery is musical. You know, so it it was pretty obvious in that way. But also at perfume school, everything kind of just clicked, and I'm like, ⁓ well, I can hear this and sometimes it smells that way or has a color and a shape, and I would write that down a lot. So there's a lot of noting of what you're experiencing, and that's also an act of mindfulness, right? Because you're in this like continuous sensory experience at all time, all times, all times. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. It ⁓ it sounds like you're composing emotional ⁓ rhythms as much as fragrance accords. Dana: Say so. I mean, with Nar, ⁓ which translates to fire, that song is inspired by a very popular, we called him the Nightingale. He was a very popular singer in Egypt and the Arab world or the Arabic speaking world. ⁓ I want to say, like from the 40s to the 70s. And he was a poet and he was a romantic and actually quite a sweet man. And the song that he sings is called Habbuknar, which means your love is fire. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Dana: And I wanted to transfer into non-Western music because it was structured differently and those structured structures really inspired me. So Nar or Habaknar, rather, the song, there's an active experience called Tarab. Tarab can only really translate to rapture. So rapture between the performer and the audience. And so in Egyptian music around that time, it was like the golden era of film and music, people really spent a lot of time at live music shows. And what would happen is that the artist or the singer is singing almost the same sentence, but in different ways. So you have all of these nuances, intonations, ⁓ Slight rhythm changes or slight melody changes, but you're saying the same thing and it goes over, it goes round and round and round and round. So with Nod, I only used five materials, literally five lines, to create that linear effect that it wouldn't change too much, but it went round and round and round. So it had a like a spherical, ⁓ rapturous vibe or energy. that really translated the music into the scent and vice versa. Josh: I love that. What was it about it's only love that gets you through by say that inspired you into making a scent? Dana: ⁓ Sade. I mean, Sade is like The ultimate lover girl, you know? Josh: And I fully said say it 'cause I was reading that question. Yes. It's funny. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Do you want to say that? Dana: You want to ask that question again? Josh: Yeah, thank you. Cause even as I said I was like, that's not correct, but we'll just move on. ⁓ so what was it about Sade's it's only love that gets you through that moved you into making a sense? Dana: Did it again. Shade. Sade. Yeah. Try again. I believe you. I believe you. Josh: And I listened to this song while I was researching your fragrances. Michelle DeLorenzo: Okay. Josh: ⁓ do you wanna take a a swing at a machine? Michelle DeLorenzo: Okay. ⁓ so what it what about Shade's It's only love that gets you through moved you into making a scent? Dana: So Sade is the ultimate lover girl. And Sade is very, very private, right? So we don't actually know much about her, like heart matters. When I listen to Sade, I feel held. And this song in particular was talking about, that even tenderness comes from the pain. And as someone who is generally more on the negative, sad side, ⁓ that gave me solace. And so I wanted to create something that was like really soft and tender and holding you for the moments that you really feel like you need to be held and you can't be held by someone you know you want to be close to or someone you miss or someone you don't have anymore. Yeah, I just want to be held. I just wanna be a baby. Michelle DeLorenzo: Ha ha ha. Dana: Cozy. Michelle DeLorenzo: Josh. Yeah. Same. Honestly, same. Put put in a swaddle. Rocked. Sounds great. Dana: No, I thought it was hard. Josh: I think people yeah, I think people who come off ⁓ very verbose and very strong often are that way because they have to be in the world and then kind of when they can let that guard down, they do want to be soft. They do want to be held. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Dana: Yeah, I mean, I've been fighting a lot in this industry. And I don't want to fight anymore. Fighting for my place and to be taken seriously, to be be appreciated, to be seen. Like, and I did everything that w I was supposed to do, right? I did all of those things so that I could be taken seriously. But yeah, so I am sensitive and I think I believe and I know this is not with all perfumers, because I've had this conversation with perfumers before. Some of them can really remove themselves from the work, but I believe that my emotion is what feeds the work. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. I would agree. Josh: I think that reflects really how much of ⁓ it it is not strictly your way of living. It is your artistic expression and you are intrinsically tied to the art that you're creating. Dana: No matter what, good or bad. Josh: Who do you hope connects with your fragrances? Dana: Who? Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Dana: Hmm. I mean I could give you like a target audience, but I don't think that's your question. I would say people who are cultured. who are curious, who want to grow and learn as people. obviously people who like smells. open minded open minded people. Fragrance lovers, clearly. Anyone, anyone who's who's open to it. Not anyone. Let me yeah, 'cause I've had some like Trump supporters buy for me and I'm like, please don't. Like I why? Like are you not a friend buying a websites? Like Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Are we missing the whole point? Josh: Yeah. Dana: Yeah, it takes control who buys and who chooses me and who doesn't, you know, and who but whenever someone shares what I've created with with me and what it's meant to them, sometimes it's not someone at all that I expected, right? Like I remember getting an email from this guy at a frat house once. And I thought, what? You're buying from me? Like, okay, amazing, you know. Michelle DeLorenzo: Okay. Dana: I think cut that entire question out. Josh: I liked that, but okay, can't. ⁓ we'll swap it with if listeners wanted to understand your brand, Jasmine Thra Sarai, through one brand, I am having trouble with the speaking and the words today. ⁓ if listeners wanted to understand your brand through one album, which would it be? Michelle DeLorenzo: Redo it. Dana: I have no idea. I thought about this question long and hard. I listened to so many different things myself. And because Jazz and Sarai is so multi-genre, I'm gonna give you a non-answer by saying a multi-genre compilation playlist. Michelle DeLorenzo: He Josh: Which they could find on your website. Dana: That's true. I mean, I have a Spotify playlist with a bunch of things. Then almost every year I do a playlist for Jasmine Sarai. So there's like a bunch of different songs in there. ⁓ yeah. I mean, I can't be listening to one thing, one thing at any given moment. But if I had to choose a genre, it would be reggae. Because it has like. If I if I only had to choose one, because you know, it could be. Spiritual, political, social, romantic. It could be ⁓ female vocalist, male vocalist, instrumental, bands, harmonies. You know, it could be slow, it could be fast, it could be dub, it could be reggaeton. Why not? You know, so again, not not a direct answer because I do not know. I'm a mixer, I just mix everything by nature. Michelle DeLorenzo: I love that answer. so moving into the idea of legacy and memory, do you think fragrance can preserve history that words sometimes fail to capture? Dana: Yeah, I mean, look at the olfactory history and the anthropology that exists. There's tribes that communicate with smell as part of their language. They don't, from my understanding, some are not documenting that. Then you have ritual and matrilineal rituals of incense and stuff like that, right? Like I talk about this in some of my classes with Sudan. Sudan has an exceptional matrilineal olfactory culture. When you're married, you have your own blend that's created for you. When you're single, you have your own blend. So you're communicating without even speaking. And then it's it's incredible. Yeah, it's incredible. And you have several tribes in like let's say East Africa and then in South America who also have their own languages. Then we talk about like Hatsibsuot of ancient Egypt. She brought like myrrh and frankincense from modern day Somalia, right? Josh: That's fascinating. I need to read on that. Dana: Her brother, the pharaoh after her, tried to erase her entire existence. But he failed. And now she's known for having brought those materials into Egypt and further into North Africa and the Arab world. So yeah. Then there's also recipes. Recipes can be carved, they could be ⁓ spoken to like you know, kind of like a little telegram, you know, like in your ear, like this is what we're putting in there. Like a little bit of calamus or something. Who knows? ⁓ it could be there's so many things. So yeah, a hundred percent. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Yeah. Josh: What kind of stories do you think deserve to be smelled and not just told today? Dana: Outside of perfume or Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Dana: I mean, perfumery can be a form of storytelling in itself, right? But scent is felt no matter what. I think just traveling and experiencing the cultures that we're talking about is really important too because we can talk about it or Teve Sank can like make a nice little documentary about the Egyptian growers and PBC will do this and that, but are we really experiencing it firsthand? Because again, it's through a medium you cannot smell. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Yeah. ⁓ when someone experiences your fragrances years from now, what do you hope remains? Dana: I hope they still feel the intention. I hope they still like it. You know, sometimes when you're wearing a perfume too much, you're like, ⁓ I hate this. I don't want to wear it anymore. I don't want anyone to feel that way about anything that I made. Or if you've had like a bad memory and then something you're like associate that perfume with that scent. I really hope I my perfumes are not those. ⁓ you know. No, ⁓ my God, so sad. So many perfumes. Just no longer. Josh: Yeah. We've we've talked about that happening, yeah. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Dana: Because of bad memories. So yeah, like I I really hope people can feel the intention, the authenticity, the joy. I want them to feel like some sort of like re remembrance. Does that make sense? Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Josh, you wanna move us into closing reflections? Okay. Josh: Sure. So ⁓ looking at our closing ritual, if there is if every perfume is a story, what kind of stories are you still hoping to tell? Dana: Well, the story that I keep telling that gets a lot of pushback is, Hey, can we stop using Oriental in perfumery? And that's still a bit Yeah, it's it's caused some some issues. Some names, name callings, some racial slurs, some some all ca some some information being regurgitated ⁓ and taken from me. But I I'm not gonna shut up. Like what the WPC taught taught me before I came to this to Scentfest is when I was doing my first panel, I kept I was joking about like, well I won't get too spicy. We'll keep it bland, you know? ⁓ because I knew who who what what room I was in, right? Michelle DeLorenzo: Hm, yeah, yeah. Dana: Also, have been doing this for so long, which kind of goes back to that indie question. It's like, I'm free. I can say whatever I want. It has caused more problems for me. And even like the spirits are like, What are you arguing? Who are you arguing with? I'm not, I'm not trying to argue with anyone. I'm trying to inform and to improve. And because there's so many people who love this industry and love what we create. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Dana: And love sharing all of that and this beautiful shared experience that we all all all covet. Why not? Like if we're talking about there's so much misinformation, how about I just give you a few facts that say, hey, do you ever think about this differently? Or do you know that this is maybe erasing a bunch of people in a bunch of cultures or setting them aside or pushing a certain agenda? Like, that's all. It's just critical thinking. Which I understand is a lot to ask for in this day and age because we are so inundated with information that double checking facts has become like actually a problem, you know, with literal fake news and stuff. But there has to be a line, there has to be a boundary where like this is worth protecting, you know? I'm I went on a rant. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, it's I do too, because it's it's making me think of like, you know, there's been these moments where I've seen a especially on TikTok, and this is on the the consumer end of things, of people saying, like, why are you talking about politics and fragrance? This is this is politics has nothing to do with this. And it's like Josh and I we're right here. And it's like it must be so wonderful to live with so much privilege that you can't see. Josh: I appreciate it. Michelle DeLorenzo: the politics in absolutely every single aspect of our lives, especially now when things are so, so much more you have s access to so much more information and things are are playing out in our faces and and you can see right through the smokescreen of it all. And it's like, how can you exist in the world and not see that? Sometimes I wish I could be blissfully ignorant to it, because it seems like it's a much happier existence to live that way. But, you know Dana: Yeah. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. Dana: No choice. I was politicized early because we have to be. This is the reality of the world. And then going to per French perfume school, I became even more radical because I saw how I was being treated on a subconscious level, or how I was being perceived rather, and then also what was being taught. And then I have a Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Dana: Communications background. You want me to sit there and not talk about duplication and not talk about like how we communicate changes things and how we market things. Like the medium is the message. Like there's all of these different things. So the medium is the message. For me, sent is the medium, therefore, sent is the message. If sent is the message, there's so many memes in this podcast, by the way. I just repeating ⁓ like if sent is the message. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Dana: Then how are you gonna sit there and say that it's not social, politic political, environmental, and all of that? Because it's it's exactly all of those things. And if we decide to ignore that, then sure, you you can keep making money, but the in the grand scheme of things, people are gonna stop buying because people are getting smarter, people are getting more radical. And I was told, and I got into a lot of problems, and I got so much pushback from French men, especially, and otherwise. It's like, well, stick to your lane. Just stick to being a perfumer. olfactory woke American bigotry. All this crazy stuff. ⁓ I was called a barbarian because apparently Arabs are barbarians at a certain time. and I'm sitting there and people are like, why are you fighting about this? Why are you, why are you so adamant about it? Michelle DeLorenzo: Hmm. Dana: And I said, well, I'm not even presenting this from a sociopolitical point of view. I'm presenting it from a cultural and academic point of view. I just gave you a bunch of research links. I just gave you a bunch of alternatives. I'm not saying, ⁓ this is shit and here like we're I'm not giving you solutions. This is why I'm saying this. If you agree with me, great. But now we have the TikTokers who have their own perfume brands or perfumes for other brands. working on these concepts as if like as their thesis when this is literally my life. These are my experiences. These are per pe experiences of other brown and black and women especially. So it's not like I'm not playing, I'm not making this up. And as an immigrant, we we're taught to lay low and be quiet and all of that sort of thing. And I did that for a very long time. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Dana: I thought I was too brash for this French industry, or the Americans are gonna find me too angry, or the British are gonna, you know, like whatever, right? And I care so much what people think, and I still do, but I don't believe that staying quiet is gonna move us forward as an industry. It's just not. And I have all that to lose, and I've lost it all, and I've had to start over so many times. Michelle DeLorenzo: Could not agree more. Dana: And we'll edit this out, but I'm broke as fuck too. Like all of these images and all of these brands and all of this, all that stuff, I are now competition. And people are, you know, labeling me as well, she's the oriental whatever. I'm not, you know what? I am a proudly anti-orientalist perfumer. We can keep that in. Absolutely. Josh: Yeah, I th I mean I we've spent the last hour getting to know you and your brand and where you come from. You are welcome back anytime and you don't have to worry about censoring yourself or feeling like you're too much for the room because you've got the right audience here. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yes. I could sit here and listen to you for hours. Dana: No. When we first met, I was ⁓ kindred, yeah. And after that, I wasn't, you know, but again, on pause recording, that panel that you were at was bullshit. Like, though, outside of Michael, like those two men took complete interest in Michael. I was as the only woman on that panel, by the way, they didn't care about what I had to say. Then Michelle DeLorenzo: Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Mm-hmm. Dana: The day I met Julien, which was the day before, and it was only because someone told me go talk to him I talked to him about the Oriental thing and he's like, You know, I lived in Dubai and ⁓ over there, ⁓ they don't give a shit. Michelle DeLorenzo: That's always their answer. That's always their answer. Only Americans care about those things, apparently. Dana: I mean it's a problem even in the Arabic language, but the Arabic language is so nuanced, and one word could mean seven different things that Oriental doesn't actually mean Oriental. In Arabic, it doesn't. And no one's talking about Orientals as people or referring to them as people. None. Or as a culture. None. You say Chinese, say Japanese, you say Indonesian. Like you just are more specific. That's it. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Josh: What Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: Would it surprise anyone to hear a French person hear what they want to hear and take what they want to take from a conversation? Dana: No, but what happens is that there's this reverse projection that occurs. And then I'm the one who's like, ugh, I'm like the little scary Arab Chihuahua, like just trying to like I'm like a hundred pounds guy. I could beat you with my mouth. I can. And I ⁓ I have insane intellect. But again, debating skills. But I like to debate, and people don't find debate as argumentative, but debate is different. Debate is about critical thinking. Michelle DeLorenzo: Hm. Ha ha ha. Dana: Arguing for arguing's sake and trying to be right is a completely different story. I have no problem saying I'm wrong or taking information and saying, you know what, I disseminated this information and I didn't have all the facts, but I've never done that because I'm a Taurus. And I put everything I put forward has been highly thought about. Unless I'm ranting on stories and my mom will be like, take off that shit. Michelle DeLorenzo: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I also I want to take a moment to thank you because the amount amount of emotional labor that it must take to have these conversations and to spend your time educating people on these things, it's a lot. And I know that could that could eat away at you emotionally and spiritually. So thank you for for doing that and for giving that to people and you know, being being the voice for so many that we absolutely desperately need in the industry. Dana: Thank you. That means a lot. Thank you. Josh: ⁓ before we let everyone go, what are some fragrances that you've been appreciating right now? Dana: You're gonna laugh. I mean, I I'll just make I'll just mix a couple of things and just wear them. Cause I there's so many perfumes I wish I could buy, but I need to buy materials and boxes and you know, so I'm not as an avid perfume buyer as I used to be. So I'll mix like ambernum, which I think is a fermentation ingredient. It just smells like incense and benzoin and amber, kind of like mixed in together, and then I'll use that as a layer for things. ⁓ I'll wear fruitful. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Yeah. Dana: ⁓ in the summer, I also really like jazz and mare. I'll put those two together. so it's like fresh and green and Mediterranean. And then I have Feiro's on my mind, so that's always a good thing. ⁓ what else? ⁓ I love Nymphea by Tanaise. ⁓ I also love like classic stuff, Femnite du Bois. I still have like the smallest little amount of it, and I will wear it still. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Dana: ⁓ yeah, that's what I've been wearing more or less. Michelle DeLorenzo: Love it. I have ⁓ so I've been kind of having a lot of struggles with this conversation on on TikTok recently, and have seen some really great creators finally, I feel calling it out. And this idea that Arab fragrance is just what we see as what's being promoted on TikTok right now. So these these dupe houses, these inexpensive houses and Listen, there are some of them that I actually think are quite nice, but I am not somebody who supports dupes. And I know when I post my video about this, I'm gonna get some I'm gonna get some heat on it. ⁓ but I've really in been enjoying the House of Amr recently. ⁓ so the perfumer, and if I say his name incorrectly, please correct me, it is Amr. my microphone just fell. ⁓ Amr Al Drahi, and he's from Saudi Arabia. And this entire line is so spectacularly gorgeous. I have Arabian jasmine. ⁓ and it's really just, I think, one of the most ⁓ perfect examples of a jasmine fragrance in my collection. I loved, I love to find a fragrance that to me is the exemplary of a note for me. And I feel that way with this one where it feels like the life cycle of jasmine to me. It has this like burst of like opening, like a freshly bloomed flower. And then in the mid kind of feels like it's starting to wilt, like the like the petals are starting to get a little transparent. And then at the base, kind of feels like the the oils of the leaves have kind of set like just seeped into the dirt and into the branches. And it's starting its life cycle over again. ⁓ it's really an incredible house overall. ⁓ and I just I want more people to see fragrance from, you know, Arab fragrance is not just what's being hawked to you. on TikTok that this culture goes deep and these fragrances are so much, so much bigger than just the dupe houses. Dana: I mean a lot of those dupe houses aren't even Arab. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Yeah. Josh: Yeah. ⁓ funny enough. Dana: lot of like Indian Pakistani Bangladeshi houses that have been like they're all families and they've been doing things for a long time. Or you have Ejal, which is also a Pakistani family, but they don't do dupes, but they do Khaliji perfumes, which is Gulf related perfumes. Amer is a Saudi perfumer. Have you smelled my jazz? 'Cause his is like more indolic, I would say. Mine is a bit sicker. ⁓ who also Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes, definitely. I love yours. I'm currently very obsessed with fruitful. Very obsessed. Dana: Great. Time for it. ⁓ but it's kinda sad. You can only like you can count how many of us are are in the industry on the on the ⁓ on your hand and I was the only one of my kind until maybe five years ago. Yeah, it's pretty wild. So the dupes are not, it's not the case. I mean, perfume plays a completely different role in the Arab speaking world, the Arabic speaking world. So yes, we have a lot of copies, but we also have a lot of Atars, perfumers. Create something based on something else. The dupes that are on TikTok are just generally larger companies that are trying to make money. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dana: Right? They're just trying to sell to people. And so again, what's your intention? Because intention is everything, and people are gonna feel that. ⁓ and no, it's not representative of us at all. One, it's not Arabian, we're not horses, and two, like it's just kind of disrespectful, and it is prejudice, it just it shows you prejudice in in in pure pure action ⁓ this assumption that things that come from there are gonna be cheaper and less quality and less this and this and that when what 70% of the world just jasmine comes from Egypt? Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dana: All the stories that exist in Guirlin come from somewhere else? Memo Paris, Montal Paris, like these entire brands. Mm-hmm. Josh: Yeah. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yep. Josh: Yeah, I I've long felt kind of weird about a specific brand that is a British woman, but they're all like vaguely Middle Eastern. and this again, you know, the I purposefully have been trying to shift my language away from saying Middle East and saying the Arab world, but like this very weird dichotomy of like African and Arab ingredients as the stars of a British brand is very strange to me. And I'm like, Does no one Wanna talk about this? Michelle DeLorenzo: That was something I noticed a lot of when I was in Milan for Essence, is that these are all like lots of Italian-owned, lots of French-owned brands, and they are all marketing themselves as the smell of Africa, the smell of India, the smell of of China. And it's like, what are any of your perfumers from those places? Are is anybody involved in your company from those places that were telling those stories? I digress. Dana: They don't even see the problem. It's like Quebec. It's like they're blind to their racism. It's like it's it's it's actually like no one's gonna say anything. And again, they're selling to people who are of a certain class, ⁓ and purchasing power, you know? Michelle DeLorenzo: No, yeah, mm-hmm, yeah, mm-hmm. Josh: That is to say, we could have a whole nother episode. I'd love to have a whole nother episode talking about independent perfumery and kind of like cultural competency. in the meantime, can you tell our viewers and listeners where to find you? Dana: You can find me in Los Angeles if you're here. But if you're not, ⁓ you can find me at jasminsarai.com. So that's J-A-Z-M-I-N-S-A-R-A-I.com on Instagram. I'm jasminsarai.sense on TikTok. I'm Jasmine Sarai underscore Dan Lmusries, just so that people know that it's like not one person. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Hmm. Dana: That's ⁓ you can also find my work at Dana Elmasri dot com. You'll see like olfactory art, you'll see cross modal art, you'll see all the cool projects that I've worked on since I was twenty two. Michelle DeLorenzo: Amazing. Thank you so much for joining us. Yeah. We appreciate you. Josh: Thank you so much for the time, Donna. Dana: Thank you. Amazing questions. Thank you for your time, your openness. This was really, really great. Michelle DeLorenzo: Okay. Okay, love you. Bye. Josh: And we'll see you next time. Dana: Yeah. Well,