Michelle DeLorenzo: A ghost is evidence of absence. Someone was there. Something happened here. And somehow something remains. Josh: Perfume behaves strangely similarly. It enters the room with us, it lingers after we leave, it clings to moments and memories, it haunts our furniture and our clothes. It summons someone we haven't seen in years, and occasionally people report smelling something when there seemingly is nothing there to smell. Michelle DeLorenzo: For our next monster, we're looking at perhaps the most natural relationship between fragrance, the supernatural ghosts. Josh: The scent of ghosts, our next monster. Michelle DeLorenzo: And I'm in makeup and a costume and Josh is not. Josh: I'm wearing bones. We're good. Michelle DeLorenzo: I went all in. Josh: Like. Do you believe in ghosts? Michelle DeLorenzo: Me? Absolutely. I grew up in a very, very haunted house. So there is no way possible that I could have come into this world not believing in ghosts. What about you? Josh: I I also believe in ghosts in like a sc skeptical but I know what I've seen and heard and smelled. Michelle DeLorenzo: Hmm. Okay. has there ever been a moment where in you experienced something paranormal? Josh: Yeah. I have talked pretty extensively with it with like close friends and stuff, but it's not something I bring Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Josh: up as like my third fun fact of an icebreaker. but I I do think the house I grew up in was quite haunted and quite active. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: and also just kind of like our my whole extended family seems to be attuned a little bit to to unusual stuff. How about you? Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Yeah. So I have endless, endless amounts of stories from the house that I grew up in. essentially it was one of the first houses built in Brooklyn. it was almost 200 or over 200 years old when we had found the deed for it. So there was lots of activity. We had had psychics come in when I was younger because there was some really weird things happening. And they believed that the house was at one point a brothel, which made sense. It was this huge, four-story house, three family, and so definitely would have been appropriate for that. Lots of bedrooms, lots of lots of action. And yeah, one one story was a moment which one should I tell? God, there's so many. one story I'll tell is that my my mom and my grandmother were also super sensitive to these things. And my brother growing up, my oldest brother was kind of skeptical and kind of made fun of my mom for believing it all and had gotten really drunk one night when he was a teenager. And we We believed that there was this spirit in my parents' bedroom that, you know, the psychics that had come in said really liked mischief and liked causing trouble. And he decided to just poke at it and like make fun of it. And my mom came in yelling at him, and you know, she got goosebumps up and down her arm. And she said, you know, Chris, stop. You know, it's it's it's affecting me. And he turns around and he goes, Ha ha, you're dead. I'm not. And Walks out. So our house was that apartment was like a railroad. So it was my parents' bedroom that led right into my bedroom that led into a living room. So he had to walk through my room to get out. And I had all these toys and board games and stuff kind of piled up. And as he walked past it, everything on my shelf blew off onto the floor. And he sat down, freaking out at this point. And my mom My mom had a pouch with sage around her neck and went to go take it out. And it was still closed when she picked it up and the sage and stones that were inside went flying out. Now I am like ten years old witnessing this and I'm like, Josh: Yeah. Michelle DeLorenzo: holy shit. And my mom made him go back in and apologize and lit some sage and burn some white candles to chill it all out. Yeah. Josh: Yeah, I you know, when we're thinking about like we both said the place we grew up in was haunted, but what makes a place feel haunted? Michelle DeLorenzo: So many things. I mean, I think there's especially when you're buying a house that other people have lived in, there even if you don't believe in in ghosts, there is something about somebody else's energy kind of imprinting on that space. So I think haunting can mean a lot of things. I think it could mean, you know, activity. It could also mean this this fuck-ass house where the people who lived there before you screwed everything up and then you gotta fix it. They left their mark in a way. Josh: I think that's just it. A place feels haunted because it doesn't feel empty. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: there was another house when I was looking at purchasing, like did a tour with the realtor and with my ex husband, and like on paper, it was the right house. It had the right number of bedrooms, it had a huge basement, nice yard, Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: it was from the fifties, like it it checked every box for me. And then I just like got a weird feeling about it. And I called the realtor and I was like, hey, I need to do a walkthrough alone. And when I was walking through the house, I just like didn't it didn't feel right because I didn't feel alone in the home when I was the only person there. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Yeah. Josh: and I was like, Nope, I can't do it. And everyone was like, What do you mean? It's the perfect house. And I was like, I can't do it. It's there's something not right here. Michelle DeLorenzo: Love that you had that instinct to do that too. I we we bought our first house, not knowing a lot about it. And it was not a house that I wanted, but at the time the market in New York was so bad. And my husband jumped on it when he got the opportunity. And things started to feel weird after I had my son, and then all of a sudden I was home during the day alone, which was already really an unusual experience for me. And I had sleep paralysis for the first time in years one night. And it was as my husband was getting ready to go to work. It was like five o'clock in the morning. And it it jolted me away because it was very it felt like somebody was screaming in my ear. And there were already several other days where I went I went To my parents' house instead because I felt like somebody was watching me, like somebody was over my shoulder watching me change my son's diaper, watching me take care of him, like kind of kind of judging feeling. I'm like, okay, is this just like postpartum anxiety or is there something here? But that day that I had the sleep paralysis, I'm like, nope, I'm I'm not staying here today. Absolutely not. And so I go, I go back to Brooklyn and I'm at my parents' house and we turn on the news. And it turned out that that very day, They found somebody's body buried out behind the woods, right behind our house. And I'm like, I don't know if this is a warning or something was actually trying to protect me, but holy shit, this is this is fucking scary. Josh: Mm-hmm. Michelle DeLorenzo: yeah. And there was we we learned afterwards that the church that was right next door, the before being turned into housing, used to be housing for for the nuns and for orphan children. And there was a private cemetery right behind that church that we never discovered. So yeah. Do your research when you buy in your house. I think when we when we talk about ghost stories though, we tend to lean towards kind of the frightening. But do you think that there's ever ghost stories that have the ability to be comforting? Josh: Yeah, I mean I think we as we explore the monsters, the reason people love the horror genre is because Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: things that are scary let you feel that adrenaline rush and that, my god, with no real danger. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Josh: But when we do get into people's lived experiences that are ghost stories, they often have this sweetness and this comfortingness because it's a way to reach beyond the veil. It's Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: Ghosts by their very nature represent something other than the mortal coil, so Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: they do have this tenderness to them. Michelle DeLorenzo: When you imagine encountering a ghost, does the experience have a smell? Josh: Yes, but I think there's no singular ghost smell. I think there Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. I agree. Josh: so I think it also gets this is one of those interesting monsters because there's no physicality to it. So Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: the way that it appears and the way that the haunting or the ghost manifests would also affect the way it smells. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Josh: Like if I think about the movie Ghost, which is one of those comforting ghost stories, you know, I would imagine That Patrick Sweezy's ghost might smell like wet clay. Michelle DeLorenzo: you know, I think there's there's probably the trope, and you know, probably people associate things like a sulfuric smell with, you know, something darker, lower vibrational. But I think, and you know, as we can probably get into some stories today, there is something about somebody's scent or something that somebody used to cook. And I know there have been moments where while living in my old house after my grandparents passed away, where I thought I got a whiff of my grandfather baking something. And it was very Josh: Mm-hmm. Michelle DeLorenzo: brief. it was completely, you know, impossible as he wasn't there and nobody cooked the things that he cooked. But there was this brief brief moment and I'm I'm like, okay, maybe, maybe he's here. Maybe that's how I'm picking up that he's around somehow. So I think, you know, when we when we link this all back to fragrance, there is something about the way someone smells or the way somebody's routine smells that kind of always sticks with us. And whether that be that we find it in a fragrance in in reality, or we catch phantom little sniffs here and there. Josh: Yeah, I think there's that that was really one of the reasons I think we were most excited for the ghost part of the monster is because it doesn't have to be terrifying and in the way we discuss the vampire being eroticized and the witch being politicized, the ghost can be multiple things at once. I really love the Guillermo del Toro movie Mama because it is a ghost story. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm, that's such a great movie. Josh: But she is at her core a mother and she Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: loves those kids and everything she does is in her own way to love and protect them. Michelle DeLorenzo: True. Such a great movie. I love that one. And you know, I think I think we think of terrifying ghost encounters when it's something that you're not expecting. But I think once you've had someone really close to you, a loved one of some sort pass on, those experiences then become comforting. It's the familiar coming back to greet you that kind of takes away that fear. So there's so there's so much that goes into it. Josh: Think to your point too, as well, is like when once you become accustomed to something and the the way it presents, it can become that cue for comfort or for memory. fragrance behaves almost identically. you know, thinking about how perfume can be haunting. Have you ever known someone has arrived or left just by the way they smelled? Michelle DeLorenzo: Yes, usually not a good thing though. It's usually the trail Josh: Ha ha Michelle DeLorenzo: of Jovenal or Ambermax behind them or in the elevator. Smelled Bianco Latte in the elevator at work the other day and nobody was in there. I'm like, holy shit. Josh: Thought you were supposed to be a no fragrance workplace. Michelle DeLorenzo: it was we're in a multi office building. Somebody somebody didn't Josh: Mm. Michelle DeLorenzo: give a shit. What about you? Josh: Yeah, I mean you you definitely can tell when it's something like that. But I also think there's this when you live with someone, you you know, whether that be parents or a loved one or fr just roommates even, you do become accustomed to kind of their natural sense, Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Josh: whatever that becomes. If it's their hair care, their skincare, the way they wear their clothes, their natural body odor. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: And like if they haven't been around for a while. And then suddenly you smell it again, you're like, someone's home. Or someone's walked through. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Or I think even more so than the scent of somebody like walking through is the scent of going back to somewhere, like going back to my grandparents' house. Like that's a scent I really, really miss. Just not only their cooking, but just the smell of their old stuff. All of their old wood furniture, all of their you know, they were really old school and liked to to they had a dryer. They never liked to use it. They liked to hang their clothes. on the line in the backyard and the smell of those that crispy clothing, like really starchy clothes. they're kind of stiff from drying on on the line. Like those are smells that I can't ever get again. And I I miss it. It's one of the reasons why I love house hunting so much, because I love going in and smelling the smell of old houses. Josh: It's funny you say that. I know a couple episodes ago when I was talking about Ethernet by Haney, I Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: mentioned it made me think of my grandmother and the house and like where her trailer was on our property. but I do often think about I knew we were selling the house and like before we did an estate sale, I remember I was like 12, went in and like the smell of trailer, that very specific like adhesive that they use. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: and like her belongings and like the corded telephone mounted to the wall and like the dust clinging to the air. I was like, I'm never going to experience any of this again. So there is this longing too for the way ascent can affect you. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah, very true. I think that's one of the reasons why we're so drawn to scent, because when we find a smell that triggers those memories for us, it feels so emotional. Like I I never expected a fragrance to make me cry until I smelled warm bulb or marginalia or finca, like these fragrances that absolutely brought me to tears. Josh: I think there's this aspect too where fragrance pulls those emotions and those memories out even when they're not Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: specific. Like Ghost of You is very moving. I mean, the first time I smelled it I cried Michelle DeLorenzo: yeah. Josh: because it has this sense of longing for someone. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Josh: But I've never s I've never smelled someone who smelled like Ghost of View. So it Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah, yeah. Josh: it brings the ghost of someone forward without being the ghost itself. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. yeah. There's there's something about that fragrance that to me smells like like you've broken up with your boyfriend, but you've kept their hoodie and you put it on until it doesn't smell like them anymore. And it is very, very sad to me. It's a r it's a really great one. Shout out to Kat. We love you. Josh: Yes. Though speaking about breaking up with someone and the way they smell, do you think Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Josh: certain people can become inseparable from a fragrance? Michelle DeLorenzo: yeah. And and I think like going back to like one of our first conversations, I think that's why I'm so against signature scents. Cause there are some scents that just are very, very difficult for me to move on from. We've mentioned that my my very toxic ex only ever wore Jean Paul Gautier Lemail. But also my grandmother, on my dad's side only ever wore taboo. Like we bought bottles and bottles of bottles for this Josh: Yeah. Michelle DeLorenzo: woman. And I don't own a bottle of taboo. I do kinda wanna go out and smell one, but very, very strong ingredient in that one is civet. So I struggle with civet fragrances because they all remind me of my grandmother. Josh: Yeah, I th I think it's interesting w you know, in that aspect of the ghost, a person can haunt a fragrance for you. I cannot Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: smell Saint Al thirty three without thinking of my ex husband. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. So not just talking about fragrance, but is there a person whose scent you'd recognize anywhere? Josh: Yeah. I mean th the like emotional answer if we want to be raw is my mom. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Josh: There's I didn't get to see her for a long time because of COVID when she Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: died. And like when I think about the way she smelled, not even that it was like the best smell, because she was a chain smoker, but like this idea of like stale cigarette smoke and herbal essence of shampoo, it like Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Josh: I j I just can picture it in my head and know that that is exactly what I would smell if I were around her. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah, yeah. Josh: and like it choked me up a little bit just thinking about it then. Like I I would recognize that anywhere. Michelle DeLorenzo: yeah. I there are also been some moments recently where I've in so in my day job, my last few few days there, I've been having to go into school buildings and being so one school, the office is really close to the custodian's office. And my dad was a custodian. And like I've mentioned before, like he kind of always vaguely smell smelled of like gasoline and And metal and like cleaning products. And there was this one other other feature about always recognizing his smell and always getting into the car with him. He always carried a huge, like his custodial keys were always on his belt to the point where even in my sister's wedding video, as they're doing their father-daughter dance, you see him reach behind him to try to hide his cle his keys under his tuxedo. so it's that kind of smell of like old. metallic keys that really reminds me of him. So going into these schools recently and being so close to the custodial office has kind of been a little bit difficult for me emotionally. And especially like hearing their keys jingle as they're walking by. yeah, so definitely the smell of metal keys. Josh: I it's funny too, 'cause it it goes back to as much as we love perfume and as much as we have so many bottles, a lot of our scent memories and associations are the mundane. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Yeah. That's why I love brands that can like pull on those threads sometimes too. You know? It's they're these are things that are never gonna the smell of keys is never gonna show up at a fragrance. Josh: Yeah, and e even talking to you in the realm of perfume, like I had mentioned it at some point in a previous episode. When I lived in an apartment building, there was a young woman who lived on a lower floor, and I knew when she was going out, because the elevator would smell like YSL Libre. I only met her in person once, but we had this weird attachment where I would be like, Hmm, I'm walking the dog in the morning and I don't smell Libre. I wonder if she came home. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Josh: Someone I've don't know. Don't know her name. Shout out to you lady. I wondered Michelle DeLorenzo: No. Josh: if you got home safe just because I didn't smell your perfume. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. What is it about the scent trail that feels a little bit haunting? Josh: It's that specter. It's the it fills Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: a void without taking up space. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Josh: It leads you into a room just beyond sight. That's the presence of something just familiar enough without being truly familiar. There Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Josh: there's just something alluring and unnerving about a central. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Yeah. There's there's something very grounding and mindful, I think, about the experience of smelling somebody's scent when they're not there. Where I think, you know, we go through the day and like we don't think about these like mundane things like, okay, I'm taking this elevator. I don't, I don't care who was in it before me. But now I Josh: Mm-hmm. Michelle DeLorenzo: now I'm I'm very conscious of somebody else's energy in that elevator. prior to me. Right. Like we kind of walk through the world like it's we're in our own head. It's just us. And it's like this like snap back to the reality, like, other people are around you. Josh: Yeah, that's really a really interesting thought too. It it brings into focus the fact that you're not the only person living their mundane little life. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Yeah. Josh: we're talking towards ghosts and hauntings, but there's a lot of loss tied to that. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: When someone dies, we inherit objects and you know, Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Josh: that can be photographs or clothing, jewelry, furniture, homes. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: It might be a little unusual to have perfume be inherited. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Yeah. Josh: It it's this you know, when you wear your grandmother's jewelry, it's you wearing a necklace. But if you wear your grandmother's taboo perfume, you're recreating a part of her presence. Michelle DeLorenzo: It feels so much more personal, especially when that Josh: Yeah. Michelle DeLorenzo: scent is so tied to somebody, you know? Like I couldn't I couldn't wear Gina Te body splash without thinking that I'm cosplaying my grandmother. Josh: Would you if you did say have bottles of these perfumes, would you spray it just to like smell them again? Michelle DeLorenzo: yeah. I I do own from so my grandmother on my mom's side, who we lived in the same house when I was a child, she had a large collection of like Avon bottles. I I have them packed away at the moment because we're we're starting the process of moving. But these really like ornate, intricate bottles, but I never remember her actually wearing it unless it was a really special event. So Josh: Mm-hmm. Michelle DeLorenzo: I don't know if the smell inside necessarily reminds me of her as much as just like her little knickknacks remind me of her. Like she she collected the bottles because she thought they were cute, not because she was wearing them all the time, you know? and I've tried them all on. they don't smell great. Josh: Well. Michelle DeLorenzo: Some of them have definitely turned, but if I could If I could get a an unexpired bottle of those same fragrances were sealed, I would absolutely love to wear them and and remember that and feel like she did in that time. Would you? Josh: I think I would I would spray it occasionally to smell them, the same way I Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: spray fragrances that remind me of loved ones just to smell them. I don't think I could wear Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: them. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Josh: Because that's part of them. It's not part of me. Michelle DeLorenzo: True. I I guess I I mean I wear a piece of my grandmother with me every single day. I actually don't wear I don't wear my own wedding band. I only ever wear my mom's wedding my I only ever wear my grandmother's wedding band. So I don't know. I think it's I like that closeness. I like remembering in that sense. So I don't think it would feel weird to wear her fragrance. Josh: I think because I'm not a particularly sentimental person when it comes to things, that would Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Josh: be harder for me. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. That makes sense. You don't like your knick-knacks. Josh: I don't. Michelle DeLorenzo: is there so going back to that, is there something about like a half empty bottle of fragrance that feels more intimate than say a photo? Josh: Yeah. It's a photograph is a captured memory that you get to hold on to for a long time. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Josh: If you were to inherit like a half full bottle, y it's a piece of life interrupted, which Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Josh: is somehow much more moving to me. It's Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Josh: it's a journal page half full. It's a Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Josh: it's a coffee cup half empty. Like that's it's a moment in Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Josh: Now you have that moment because they're not going to have it again. Michelle DeLorenzo: I feel that way. And it's I think it it stops me from collecting a lot of vintage fragrances. Like I I sent you a post earlier of this estate sale I am dying to go to this weekend. And they have a bunch of perfume bottles, but they all look like they have been heavily used. And like I wanna smell those, but I feel like I am like I know how sentimental I am about my fragrance. I Yeah, it feels like too much of tapping into that energy of somebody's everyday life to take their their bottle of perfume. Josh: Yeah. I mean, if you were to inherit a bottle, you know, the perfume disappears every time you use it. That's how we make those dents. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Yeah. Josh: If it's disappearing every time you're remembering them and smelling them, would you rather preserve that bottle or would you rather have the experience? Michelle DeLorenzo: That's such a hard question. I think I would rather have the experience. Because that person, you know, my my kids were are too young to have met their great grandparents. So if I pass that along to them one day, it's not gonna have that same meaning to them. Josh: Uh-huh. Michelle DeLorenzo: But their memory, like they were such a huge part of my life and it brings me so much comfort that I think it's more important for me to feel that closeness than to prevert preserve something that might get thrown away. After I'm gone. Josh: Yeah, I think there's there's an odd thing about grief where preservation becomes an inability to move on. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: I think about like when my matern my paternal aunt died. it's the Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: the same house that my grandmother lived on in the field. She also lived there until she died. And my grandmother never touched her room or her bathroom again. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Josh: It was left exactly as it was. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Josh: And it was so interesting because when I stayed with my grandmother, I was relegated to using that shower. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Josh: So I was entering someone's space every time, even though she was dead. And like I remember the smell of those like ornamental carved rose soaps. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm, yeah. Josh: And like over time they just became dusty. And they stopped smelling like rose and just smelled Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Josh: off and old. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Josh: And this idea that like preserving someone's memory by holding on to something, but that things also expire the same way that people do. So what good is that? Michelle DeLorenzo: True. I yeah, I guess I'd I guess he'd rather have something more tangible. and yeah, not something that's gonna it's gonna sit on the shelf, it's gonna go bad. Like, I know with when my dad passed, I you know, he didn't really have a lot of stuff aside from like his clothes and his tools. I didn't need his tools. but I took a ton of his t shirts because he was a very Josh: Mm-hmm. Michelle DeLorenzo: he He dressed up for work, but then once he retired, the man lived in a graphic tee. I I only remember my dad ever wearing like Harley Davidson shirts. And like we would when I would go on vacation anywhere, I had to find the Harley Davidson store to get him to get him a shirt. 'cause when he was younger, he was a biker and and owned several Harley's. and I so I took a bunch of them and I wear them all the time. Sometimes I just wear them to bed. Sometimes I make an outfit out of them. But like every time I do it feel that closeness. Like I don't want it to just like sit in my closet and disappear. I want it to be part of my everyday. Like my dad was part of my everyday. Josh: Yeah, I think that makes sense. turning back towards perfume a little bit. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: Perfumes can be ghosts of ourselves too. Like Michelle DeLorenzo: yeah. Josh: what about a perfume that carries a version of you that doesn't exist anymore? Michelle DeLorenzo: Definitely, I think I've said this before on the podcast, but definitely pink sugar. Josh: Mm-hmm. Michelle DeLorenzo: Pink sugar is the 18 to like 24-year-old wild mishi. The mishi that needed validation from men. the mishi that was way more goth presenting. And traveled around with metal bands and hung out at C BGBs when she was not old enough to be there. but that was my that was my scent. What about you? Josh: Yeah, I you know, I was later to the fragrance game, but I do think of like Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: the first two fragrances I ever really owned were Death and Decay by Lush, odd apropos of this episode. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Josh: but also Dad's Garden Lemon Tree, which is also a grief perfume, oddly enough. Michelle DeLorenzo: Hmm. Yeah. Josh: that clearly I have a a type there. But Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Josh: I couldn't wear either of those fragrances now. Because both of them represented a version of me that was so afraid of being in tune with myself and my own Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Josh: desires and not meeting what other people needed me to be. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Josh: so as interesting as they are and as cool as they felt at the time, I don't think I would be able to even smell them now without recoiling. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Yeah. We move on. That's I think that's why there's so many here. Like I I Josh: Yeah. Michelle DeLorenzo: kind of I but like this is this is something about me that like, you know, this is not new. Like I've I kind of always have had these kind of collections, whether it be like my tattoos or you know, photo albums or fragrances like There's something about them each marking a part of my journey. And it's fully for myself. It's not for everybody else. But, you know, there's something to kind of be able to go back and recall that and, you know, see where I've started in some cases. You know, like I it's I've said before, it's why I keep my replica fragrances because that's where I started and that's where I like seeing the growth from like the bottom shelf of the replicas up to the top shelf of the Josh: Yeah. Michelle DeLorenzo: The weird and the strange, you know. So perfumes themselves can be ghost too, you know, a perfume can be discontinued or reformulated, a brand closes, ingredients disappear, a bottle evaporates. Can a reformulated fragrance become kind of a ghost of itself? Josh: Yeah. it's been a while since I said it. I fucking hate voicemails. Violet ends Ugh Hinoki Phantome. Michelle DeLorenzo: that was such a gorgeous fragrance. Oof Josh: Was Michelle DeLorenzo: was. Yeah. Josh: yeah, I mean, kidding aside from that, but absolutely, I mean, fragrances we know can be reformulated for a variety of reasons, nefarious and not. And Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: sometimes a reformulation is good. It shows growth, it it's a new Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: facet and a new evolution of the fragrance, but ultimately you're always going to have someone who had a deep emotional connection to the first version, and they'll never experience that again. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. It is so disappointing. You know, reformulations, they have to happen. You know, we we learn more, we learn, you know, things are not as safe as we thought they were. and then just sometimes, you know, brands want to make it cheaper. But there's I'm trying to think if there's any like aside from from boo-boo tomato tomato voicemails that like really gets me. Mm-hmm. Josh: I mean, I think an example of like a reformulation that I think is quite successful is Amphora. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm, yes. Josh: you know, they launched, they have some really cool, really striking fragrances, and then as they kind of settled into the brand and their ethos as a perfumer, they said, I want to redo this. And what I've smelled of the newer ones, I'm like, I see this. I see the vision. I love Primal Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Yeah. Josh: Yell in its original formulation, but I see where you're going. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I so so much, so much love to Noah. They are an incredible person. And, you know, I when they first told me about the reformulations, I was I was kind of against it. I'm like, why? You know, like do new, don't, don't erase who you were. But now in smelling all of those reformulations, like, no, the growth that you have shown is absolutely incredible. And I'm so excited this episode is gonna come out. after fumed, but I'm so excited for everybody to get to experience their new reformulations because they are they're fucking amazing. And where I think they'll go beyond that, I can't wait to see it. Josh: Yeah, yeah, for sure. But you know, I even the recent ones we're talking about like boy smells, are Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: we actually remembering these perfumes cor like accurately, or are we just remembering how we felt about them? Michelle DeLorenzo: yeah, definitely. There's your memory is never a hundred percent, right? Like Josh: Uh-huh. Michelle DeLorenzo: I think there's there's this thing that me and my my best friend talk about, like how the world somehow has felt less vibrant over the past few years since since COVID really, and how like food doesn't taste as good as it used to. You know, things don't feel as flavorful. There are fragrances that lose their edge. And I'm like, well, if I really want to be a pain in the ass, if I really want to have that annoying friend moment and and be like, Well, it's because of capitalism, I can. Josh: Yeah. Michelle DeLorenzo: But I also think there's there's just an aspect of sometimes it's really hard to appreciate the things when they're not new anymore. when they're when you're jaded by so much of of life that like, okay, yeah, things are not smelling as great, things are not tasting as good, like everything kind of sucks. You know? But capitalism. Josh: Okay. I think even just talking about the ghosts of perfumes past, it puts into perspective that not every ghost is dead. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Josh: people can become ghosts in your lives just because they're not there anymore. Things can become ghosts in your lives because they're missing. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: things can become ghosts just because they were reformulated. Michelle DeLorenzo: So this is where things get a little strange in this podcast because experiences aren't difficult to find. And people report unexplained sense all the time. Sometimes it's a sign of something wrong around them, a leaking pipe, CO2 buildup, a dead rat in the walls. But sometimes perfume, cigarettes, food, aftershave, something associated with someone they lost, sometimes associated with the history of the place, and sometimes with no explanation at all. So let's get into a couple of ghost stories. Josh: So the setup here is we've gone into our personal recollections, our friends, Reddit threads, and we're gonna read a ghost story that's related to scent. And then we're gonna give our first reactions. What do we think happened? And then we're gonna talk a little bit about the scent. What was Michelle DeLorenzo: Okay. Josh: it? What could it have been? And then we'll talk a little bit about, you know, do we believe that this was supernatural, or was there maybe a mundane explanation? Michelle DeLorenzo: Hmm. Okay. Let's do it. Josh: So the first one is actually a personal experience. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: when I was young, we've moved to Georgia from Texas, and I remember military family, so Michelle DeLorenzo: Do we wanna just explain what just happened? Because that was very, very odd. Josh: yeah, so we were setting up to do our ghost stories section, and I am alone in the house and heard a thud. I thought someone was maybe knocking on the door upstairs, and when I went to take my headphone out, my microphone muted itself, even though it's in front of me, and the recording stopped. Cool. Cool. sure. So Michelle DeLorenzo: Do you wanna continue with the story? Okay. All right. Josh: the first story is me. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: military kid, we moved from Georgia to or I'm sorry, we moved from Texas to Georgia. And my dad bought a house on like three acres of land, middle of nowhere, surrounded by farms. And it was from like two little ladies that we bought the house. And when we were moving in. I remember it was my brother, myself, my mom and dad, and then two movers that were carrying our boxes in. And at one point, it smelled like chocolate chip cookies. The whole house. And it wasn't like, we kind of smell something. Like the movers stopped and they asked my mom if they could have one because they smelled so good. And my mom was like, Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Josh: we don't have any of our kitchen stuff unpacked. to which we were like, Why does it now smell like chocolate chip cookies then? And my mom was like, it's just, you know, your grandpa loved chocolate chip cookies. He's clearly welcoming us into our new home Michelle DeLorenzo: Hmm. Josh: with this scent. And the movers were like, Yeah, okay. But it was so interesting because like we all recount that day happening, Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: but none of us have like a satisfactory answer for why. Michelle DeLorenzo: Do you think it was your grandfather or do you think it was the people who owned the house? Josh: I think it was neither. this gets into like the other stuff with that house. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Josh: I think it was something wanting to lure people into a false sense of security. Michelle DeLorenzo: yes, 'cause that house got quite frightening later on. Yes, I remember some of those stories. Josh: but you know, thinking outside of me, like what could that have been? Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: I don't really know. Like why would a whole house smell like baked confections with no with nothing baking? Michelle DeLorenzo: Interesting. my first reaction is you should light some sage tonight. because that was weird as fuck what happened. but yeah, definitely knowing the history of that house and knowing how much more happened beyond that. And maybe one day in a future podcast we'll we'll get into that if we want to revisit the topic. but yeah. I call I call paranormal. Josh: I I I would call that one paranormal. unless someone has a really good explanation of what in rural Georgia can smell like chocolate chip cookies in the summer. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Is there a bakery nearby? Nope. Josh: Cell cell tower and hay as far as the eye could see. Michelle DeLorenzo: I guess that's the weird thing about living, that I guess I don't think about having grown up in a city. Like there's always so many smells. Like there's always an explanation. Show me somebody two doors down doing something. Some shit. yeah, I call I call paranormal on that one. I don't I don't see any possible explanations, but I will probably always say paranormal personally. Josh: What is what's your f your first story? Michelle DeLorenzo: Okay, so I am pulling a story from Reddit, and this was posted by a case of you ninety-nine. This is about four years ago. so I'll read it for you. I was very close to my grandmother. She was like a second mum to me. When she died, I was thirteen, but it looked but it took years for her death to really hit me. I think I was blocking it out. Anyway, four years after her death, it was Christmas Eve, and I was making our traditional lemon dessert we make every Christmas. My granny made this dessert for us all every year for Christmas. It's everyone in my family's favorite dessert. My granny found the recipe in the newspaper in the 70s and cut it out. It's now 2022 and we still have the newspaper cutting now laminated and use it to make the dessert. It involved zesting and juicing a lot of lemons. So 17-year-old me was standing in our kitchen smelling the lemons, and it brought back all the memories of making it with my granny every year and how she taught me what to do. And I just felt so absolutely heartbroken by how much I missed her. I had tears pouring while I cooked. Anyway, I finished clearing I finished, cleared up, and went upstairs for a bath before bed. I was feeling okay and not upset anymore. I went into my bedroom to get my things for my bath. And as soon as I opened my bedroom door, the smell of my granny hit me like a wall. The loveliest, loveliest smell in the world. Her very specific face cream, her clothes, her hair, her bedroom, just her. I was dumbfounded. I called my dad into my room and asked him if he could smell anything. He said, yeah. I yes, I can. It's what is it? I said, Does it smell like Granny? He said yes, it's it's her. It is. She must have come to wish you a Merry Christmas. This is not a usual thing for my dad to say at all. He's very much a science and facts. But he was very matter of fact accepting that his mum was visiting. I went for a bath and cried my eyes out, and then came back into my room and it was gone, completely gone. No trace of that smell at all. I felt so comforted that year I that I often think of it. I always think of her when I'm making her lemon dessert. I feel like she's there twenty four years later, now, and it's never happened again. Josh: I mean my first reaction is like that's very sweet. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yes. Josh: Like that's one of the comforting kind of ghost stories. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: What could it have been? mean psychologically grief can be a funny thing. You were Michelle DeLorenzo: yeah. Josh: holding a newspaper clipping, you were making the dessert. It might not have been hard to convince yourself that the smell of the cardboard from the Christmas tree was granny. Like I could go either way on it, but I think for the Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Josh: sake of nostalgia and sweetness, why not believe it's granny? That's fine. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. I again I probably way less of a way less of a skeptic than Josh is. no, I do think there's something about like almost manifesting that for yourself. and kind of calling in whatever whatever energy, you know, I I I guess I I balance sometimes and like do I think of ghosts in like a typical sense, or do I think that people's energy that never really disappears from us? And when we call it that we need it, is it always there? We're just not always aware of it. You know, so I think in that moment you're so aware of them that you may pick up on things that maybe are there all the time and you just don't know. Or you don't see it. Josh: Mm-hmm. Right. I have one from Reddit user Chrome Molly. Friends Michelle DeLorenzo: Hmm. Josh: experienced a perfume smell every day at a particular time. They said it was the same time that the deceased former owner walked across the room after getting ready for the evening. Michelle DeLorenzo: Interesting. Short and sweet. how much did they spray and was it soaked into the floor? Josh: Yeah. This is one of those ones, like, yes, it's short, so it's light on detail, but like I would need to know, like Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Josh: is an apartment building, 'cause maybe it is the time that the tenant below you is spraying perfume and getting ready for the evening. And it's just beast mode as hell coming up through your your floor. Michelle DeLorenzo: Very true. Yeah. Josh: or is it soaked into the floorboards and at that time of day the sun hits it right and warms up those Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: oils, like Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Especially if somebody spent their entire life like spraying and walking through it and putting all of their fragrance on the floor. Josh: Yeah. It's that's one of those that I'm like, there could be a very mundane explanation for this actually. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. I'm still saying it's ghosts. Josh: yeah. Michelle DeLorenzo: so this one probably more of like an explanation. so this is from Down in the Valley PA. I think that smells are an important part of life here on planet Earth. And it is one of those things that lock memories into our human minds. I have an antique couch in my living room That has literally been in our family for a hundred years. At least three generations of kids in our family have been cuddled on and played on that couch with beloved family members that have passed on, along with family dogs and cats. When I sit on the couch, after a while, I smell my grandmother and her sister, my great aunt, Aunt Sarah. It doesn't happen immediately. It takes a little while. So I make myself a cup of tea and open my magazine. And soon they come to join me. It's very comforting and I know they're around since their smell is so lovely and distinctive. The couch has been reupholstered at least three times, the last time by me, so it's not an old fabric that I smell. The couch is cleaned and vacuumed often, so it's not a smell related to dust or or cat fur. It's just weird, but wonderful too. Yeah. Josh: Could go either way on this one as well, 'cause I'm a skeptic. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Yeah. Josh: The mind is pretty powerful. Michelle DeLorenzo: It is. Josh: if you are intentionally setting out to remember and give space for these memories and these relatives and this energy and you've given it a place to nucleate on this couch, Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: it's not hard to think that you could either if you believe in in kind of manifesting and willing them to be there with you, Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: or convincing yourself that they are. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Again, yeah, definitely a a mindfulness moment that I think there are times I can do it too. Like I you know, I mentioned earlier about my dad shirts. Like I've worn them so many times in the year that he's passed. They don't smell like him anymore. I've watched them so many times. But I could almost imagine what they smelled like when they were his every time I take it out of my drawer. So there is definitely something so distinctive about that scent memory that just n really never goes away. Josh: Yeah, I think you know, relating it back to the beginning of the episode. Maybe the reason smell appears so often in ghost stories is because fragrance already behaves like one. I I think we kind of spoke to that a little bit. It's invisible, it's intangible, it's attached to people, to places, it's capable of surviving separate from the original source. And It makes an absence feel seen. Michelle DeLorenzo: It does. Josh: So taking us to our closing ritual, which story tonight got to you? Michelle DeLorenzo: Ooh. well yours definitely freaked me out a little bit. I'm gonna be thinking about that for Josh: Yeah. Michelle DeLorenzo: a while. yeah, I don't think yeah any of them moved me as much as that one did. Josh: Yeah. Michelle DeLorenzo: What about you? Josh: I actually really like the idea that you would make your grandmother's favorite recipe and she would say hello. Maybe she was criticizing your cooking. Michelle DeLorenzo: I love that. Yeah. I love that. My grandfather would definitely criticize the hell out of me if I tried to make his desserts. Have any Josh: Mm. Michelle DeLorenzo: of them changed how you think of a phantom scent story? Josh: not changed how I think of them. I think it reframes Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Josh: a little bit. it's not uncommon for me to think I smell cigarette smoke. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Josh: And I usually just think it's like bad sinuses. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Josh: But maybe it's not. Michelle DeLorenzo: You being Josh: If you could smell one person, place or moment that no longer exists, what would it be? Michelle DeLorenzo: It would always be my dad. What about you? Josh: I do think I would go back to that moment I mentioned earlier. standing in my grandmother's trailer and like the sunlight glinting off of and I don't know why I specifically remember that like forest green wall-mounted dial phone with the curly cord. Michelle DeLorenzo: my god, yeah. Josh: and just that smell of like her percolator running, she only ever used the same percolator from like the 70s in her kitchen, and like Michelle DeLorenzo: Hehehehehe Josh: that was the only way she would drink coffee, and just like those weird quiet mornings with my grandmother in that house. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Josh: I I would love to smell that one more time. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. I love that. See, this is why you need to be more sentimental and keep things. I still have my grandparents' percolator. Josh: I can't even be sentimental about things that I own, let alone other people. Michelle DeLorenzo: God. but yeah, I mean we spend so much of our lives trying to make perfume last, but perhaps what we actually want is attachments. Josh: Yeah. I think it goes to kind of our tagline. scent is memory, memory is evidence. And sometimes evidence is all the ghosts leave behind. Good night. Michelle DeLorenzo: Love you. Bye.