Michy: is I've been with you guys for a year. We've known each other for about two years now, which is so exciting. Yeah. ⁓ Stéle: Yes. I remember we had our first, ⁓ one of our very first events, I think it was probably an event like four or three or something like that. And for Andrew Mack, Zing and Osmo. ⁓ And we still were at the point where we didn't know exactly what we were doing. And we were very nervous that no one would come to any of the events that we hosted. But I remember Mitchie walking in and just- With Mr. Camel. Yeah, with Mr. Camel. Which I love. Michy: Yeah! Josh: Yeah. Stéle: And you just said hi to me in a way where I just knew we were gonna be friends forever. Like I knew, like I just, knew. So I'm so glad that that was true. Michy: ⁓ I love you. ⁓ I love you guys. So for everybody who may not know the faces behind Stell, we have Jake and Matt here. You want to give a little introduction for us? ⁓ Stéle: I'm Jake. This is Matt. ⁓ co-founders of Stell. ⁓ think we started this, I would say. ⁓ This ⁓ going to be our third year. three. Actually, around now, we're just about, we actually probably two years ago, it's year three. ⁓ God, that's crazy. Right around now, we were pulling the cardboard or whatever from the windows in Williamsburg. ⁓ And yeah, April 1st will be our third. I remember we, when we did that, actually we, we had the store without the cardboard open for two months and I was still working my other job. ⁓ and we had this whole argument with, you going to keep the cardboard off or the paper off? You know, and people put paper over the windows so can't see what's inside. had like a nice branded situation, but we were just like, I was like, you know what? The place is finished. No one knows we exist. Yeah. the fuck cares? ⁓ Josh: Yeah. Michy: Yeah. Stéle: And I remember like when we did open like two months later, everyone had the same story. I've been passing by this place for like the past half a year and never got to go inside. And it's been on my wishlist that basically everyone came in to see what was going on. With Jay, working by himself. Michy: good. How long did it take you to set up the first store? Stéle: ⁓ was like, would say we got it in like September, but we didn't really start until January. So it was like January, February, March, January, February. And then by, by like mid March, we kind of just would like quiet, like kind of open the doors a little bit. Get a feel for what it would feel like to have people inside there. Cause we got to just be by ourselves in there for a while. And I remember the first, the first day that we took off all the paper, your mom was there. And we staged the whole place. So it's like, if nothing but consistent this whole time. Josh: Yeah. Michy: that I knew when I think it was my first shift when you started giving people bundles of sage in their in their purchases. I'm like, yeah, I belong here. This is where I belong. Stéle: Yes. Yes. Yeah. I know we need to get back to that. Yeah, we do. I need to order a box of that. You just motivated us. We're going to go get that. Michy: It was great. ⁓ So for anybody who's listening that wants the background stories, today we're going to get into some really some heavy topics of the fragrance industry. But if anybody wants some background information on Stel, we highly encourage you to check out the Perfumerum pod and the Smell You Later pod, who did some really great interviews with the guys talking about how this whole thing came about. Yeah, and check out their podcast. They're good friends of ours and they are amazing. Josh: As Michi mentioned, ⁓ we've of gone on this arc as we started the fragrance files, immediately digging into the issues. ⁓ And had some pretty heavy hitters around ⁓ the of perfume, ingredient sourcing, brands behaving badly towards creators. ⁓ The episode coming out in two days is actually about the problems with short form content and how it drives trends. But with you all... As someone who has pretty good knowledge of how things happen behind the scenes, we wanted to talk about the other ugly underbelly of the world of perfume. ⁓ You obviously have... Stéle: It's all uh, rainbows and unicorns. I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know what you're talking about. Wait, we check here? Yes. Josh: ⁓ I mean, our other episode is Apocalypse Renaissance, so... Michy: you ⁓ Yeah. ⁓ Stéle: We're just kidding. Josh: You've had so many bottles ⁓ come through your store, hoping to be on the shelves, some that made it, maybe some that didn't, with so many perfumes coming out. What feels like it's already been done? And now what? Stéle: So, I mean, I'll say this, and this is something that I hear a lot, and I think like everyone looks for something to be done. I think like we definitely anticipate ⁓ non-talent, we anticipate... ⁓ you know, predictability. this comes from, you everyone talks about AI. I'm not going to go to AI tirade, but I will say everyone talks about AI. But the reason why AI is so successful is because we always do things predict, predictably, you know, you can predict that someone's going to make a leather fragrance, predict someone's going make a honey fragrance or sorry, a sweet fragrance. You can predict people will do certain things because we are predictable because we do things for numbers. We do things for money. We do things so people will purchase them. ⁓ With that mindset, you end up with fragrances that are just a bunch of numbers and spreadsheets. There's no heart inside it. Now, when we see, I don't care if someone literally remade Baccarat Rouge again, but if they put their heart and soul into it, because my point is if they went to make Baccarat Rouge as a dupe, stupid and useless, Now, if they went to make something beautiful and ended up in Bakar Arush, it would be so much more amazing. And that's the point. It doesn't really matter if it's been done. The question is, where are you coming from when you went to do this? Did you go to do it from your heart? Did you go to do it from your creativity? Did you go do it for the fuck of it? Did you go to do it for the art of it? If you did, then it's amazing. And it has not been done because the heart can be repeated again and again and again. It will always be amazing. Yeah, I would say obviously when, and y'all, anyone who's like a fragrance fanatic ⁓ will get to the point where things start to remind you of another fragrance that you really love or that you've smelled before. And I think to, you know, what Jake was saying, it's like, I think we're at this point now that we're not like super novices like we were when we started two years or three years ago. ⁓ We aren't, we are looking beyond just what it smells like and the composition of it and more into the story, into the creator, into the full presentation of it ⁓ to kind of differentiate it because that could mean, ⁓ well, this kind of smells like this or this reminds me of this, but wow, this is like a really unique take on that kind of general profile that I'm used to, you know? And you kind of like almost fall in love with it again. ⁓ And it doesn't feel like, you know, been done. you Josh: Oh, for sure. I mean, there are, we all know Santol 33 is a ubiquitous perfume. It is boring. It is played out. But there are many perfumes, some of which are in your store that have that bits of that DNA. And we can say, well, they're cousins, they're sisters, they're brothers, but the story and the package and the other pieces to it still make it approachable and unique Michy: No, but so Fumi did a really video recently where, you know, we tend to as fragrance reviewers kind of always compare things. ⁓ And she's like, well, ⁓ it's kind of a cheeseburger. Like, there's so many different ways you can have a cheeseburger. Right. ⁓ And there's only so many ways you can a fruity rose. And not every fruity rose is going to smell like Delina, but they can each have their own unique thing about them. And I couldn't agree more. And I think that's what, ⁓ for us, what makes us fall in love with fragrance is not just what it smells like, but what's the story behind it. Why was this created? What does this mean to you? So I agree. Stéle: Yeah, and I think we went through, we definitely, like the question kind of hits home because at one point, we went through a period where everything was very, very new to us. So it was all just really, really exciting. Again, like our experience was like diptyque, ⁓ perfume counter when we were kids at Macy's, like kind of vibe. So we didn't know anything. Fast forward now, it's like we do kind of tend to see the similarities and stuff like that. And I think we did have to go through like a little bit of like a period where when we're trying to figure out what's like right for the store and that figuring out that, that just because it smells similar to something else doesn't mean it's an automatic, like we don't need this, right? There could be some, another story to tell or a slightly different profile that might be appealing to answer people. know, but also talking to, to both your points that Michy: Mm. Yeah. Stéle: you know, things are repeated, you know, and they do have, they do have specialness to them and they do have uniqueness to them. ⁓ you know, uniqueness can be faked as well. ⁓ And that's why, you know, I like saying this to Matt, I don't know, one of us came up with this, not sure who, I'll give the credit to both. We like to take credit for this both, but we call it another corporate slop bowl. And the point is, you you have, ⁓ Josh: Mm-hmm. Stéle: You know, have a, what do you have the sweet green and whatnot and pure Vita or even if you like the lunch, lunch options when you're like, have 25 minutes to get to, to get to eat and know, they have the next meeting. have the marketing, they have the design team, have a, it's familiar organic that this, that they have all the KPIs, they hit everything. Yeah. But at the end of the day, it's nothing. It's nothing. And there's a lot of it. So. With, you know, we say everyone has a unique story to tell and for Phenomenal they do, but sometimes a story is not the actual story. ⁓ It's just a way to sell you something. And that's when it becomes not a story. know, for example, anything that you make, I mean, how do you delineate art versus ⁓ just a ⁓ cash grab, right? Those are, you know, those two things can really run hand in hand. ⁓ And the question is, did you make something to sell it? Of course, everyone has a business, everyone needs to make money. But did you make it to sell? Or did you make something to make something and then make money off it? most things that were created to this for the sake of creation, ⁓ they show heart, they show uniqueness. Now, all these corporate slothballs are saying, what is that amazing product that actually worked? And it was actually good. How do I make Josh: Mm-hmm. Stéle: replicate that to make money. So they have strategists, such as Matt, come in and they tell them, well, you need to do this, this, and this, that. Or I think Josh does the same thing. And they tell them, this is what you need to do. And then they do that. Now, that's good. But the one thing they're missing is, was the beginning of all of it. And the beginning of it was someone trying to do something amazing. And I'll give you ⁓ Noah from M4. ⁓ We love M4A, that started with... were one of the first people that came into our store, even before I think the brand, I think they came into our store as the brand was being launched, or it just was launched. Didn't even have it together really. And that was really a first for us as far as like a little bit more exposure to... Indeed. A real true like independent creator. Josh: Mm-hmm. Stéle: Because again, we were very new to it. Honestly, when you listen to the other kind of ⁓ podcasts, we talk about all the story, right? Like we did not set out to make a fragrance store. We set out to make a marble shop. And we needed some things that would go on, all these beautiful trays that Jake designed and created. ⁓ But I think we started with a very artisan mindset of how we wanted to design the store, what we're going to carry at the store, how we were going to present ourselves. So I think what we just didn't really know how to find or that that even existed in fragrance from when we were looking for it. Cause again, that wasn't a priority for us at the time. So I think it was very exciting from the beginning to start that people saw that in us even before we knew specifically fragrance wise, that was some, a place that we were going to go with what we, what, what Stel was going to be, you know, all about. So, um, Yeah, it was interesting to then start to see the other perspective of the up and coming creator. Josh: Yeah, you mentioned something there, Jake, that I think is worth bringing back up to a more fine point. You know, there are people creating for the sake of creating something. And if people want it, great. And there are people who are creating something with an end goal in mind to make money from it. At what point, like that's a tightrope. And at what point do you find yourself trying to figure out Stéle: Mm-hmm. Josh: you know, I want to make money, I want this to be a career, versus I want to be everywhere, I want everyone to know me, I want everyone to want this product. Stéle: So if you start with something that you really want to create, ⁓ comes from a place ⁓ that you've just got to get it out. Right. Like, that's really easy. It in five minutes. And sometimes it's a massive struggle for, for years. Right. Like whatever art you're creating, I think ⁓ after that point, right. we all do need to make money to live and survive, eat and all that, right? So then you've got this now product or thing that you've created and now it's time to create the way to let everybody know about it. And I think that that's different than starting with all of that at once, right? Where you've got, I'm gonna create something that everybody's gonna know about it and everybody that knows about stuff knows about X, Y, Z, right? Which the corporate slot bowl, right? So ⁓ I think that's the differentiation, right? the marketing of it and the presentation of it and the getting people aware of it is the after the fact of the product being created. And I think that's maybe how I would differentiate what we're kind of talking about as far as like things that are created with all of that in mind from the beginning where it's fabricated in a sense because you're trying to hit so many ⁓ parameters and things like that for success that ultimately that's those things aren't necessarily the fundamentals of the success because people are whether they like it or not most likely looking for the heart and something at the end of the day and also I'll say that we ⁓ Keep brands that do want to be everywhere. I highly recommend don't I either recommend do not be everywhere and I'll tell you why it's not a time I'll give you a simple I'm not gonna name names, but look at any niche brand and I say niche because we were indie brands were artisanal were different. Yes, but look at niche brands and look brands that have done successfully. Well, look where they are trajectory wise. Give them look from launch to where they are right now. Once they reach their mass market appeal, all they are is another release. They're another release. They're another feet into the machine. In fact, if you look at younger audiences, which will which if you were a tobacco or alcohol company, which would be your target, younger audience do not want to touch them. They don't want to look at them. But meanwhile, I'll have 14 year olds running here to smell Jinx. Again, scarcity is equals special. And today we want special in a world that everything's manufactured, everything's available. The one true luxury is scarcity. Now implied scarcity is trash. And that's when you have to find out is this an implied situation? And I'll give you an example for scarcity. If you look at something like this, which is Jinx, which is artisanal brand, really, really special. One of my favorite entries that we've had for a very long time. Now you'll see it's called Geiss three. Why is it called Geiss three? Now you would think that there's something it's a series and you you, collect one, two, maybe you'd have, maybe you can buy one, then you can buy three. Which one do you get? No three. These are made with aged materials. Aged materials are a non-renewable resource. for example, Geist number one will never be made again. Geist number two will never be made again. Geist number three was sold out and will never be made again, but we have some in the vault and you will never see it. But outside of that, ⁓ the point is this is not implied demand or whatever the term is. This is not a fake scarcity thing. This is real. So what I'm saying is, if you're going to go and put your your shit everywhere, it's it means nothing. You're a carton of cigarettes, you're you're a bottle of milk, you have zero. There's nothing interesting about you. And it is also why is it everywhere? Again, why do you need it everywhere? You don't need that much money. None of us do you need good money, you need good cash flow, and you can have it by by good. retailers by a good D to C, a well balanced approach with slow growth like Matt's talking about, create the full vision when you're gonna come out with marketing, when you're gonna come out with this, you don't have to be so thirsty. ⁓ If you're doing something, people will come. Focus on doing something. Don't focus so much on, you know, I'm taking over the market, I'm gonna be the king, you know. Yeah, I think it's important, I think it's important, like, this is like such a cliche, but like the saying like, ⁓ it takes time to find your tribe. Like I think that's, that's very important. Like I think we are, have been very lucky Estelle to have found, found it. think we're still on the hunt for it, not on the hunt, but like we're, still like kind of, in, those like initial phases of like, ⁓ finding our, our, our tribe, you know, I think we have already met so many amazing people through it, but I believe there's still going to be more and I see there's still going to be. more people who maybe hopefully the way that we ⁓ have created Stell and the welcoming atmosphere that it has, that we hope that every time that it has will attract more people that maybe don't even know fragrance beyond ⁓ what we knew when we first started. So I think that's important. But going back to like the kind of oversaturation of it all, I think there is something. to being very strategic about, ⁓ at least for brands, the stock is that you pick and the way that you roll out ⁓ a campaign. think if you take too many opportunities at the beginning, people are fickle. People always want something that's kind of new and undiscovered. Sometimes the oversaturation isn't all in one week or two weeks isn't maybe the best ⁓ thing if you want longevity forever. If you want to just kind of like have a flash in the pan moment, maybe that's is best for you. Michy: Yeah, I also think like constant new releases is also like I know people think that that's going to keep the attention of your audience, but I do think that at some point it overwhelms them and your quality degrades. Stéle: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. But you know why it happens? It happens because private equity demands reports and they demand to see 30, 40, 50 % growth and a new release will do it. And once they get the taste of that first release and how it does, you get five versions of the same fragrance in one year. And you all know what I'm talking about. Michy: ⁓ Stéle: you're switching to looking at the numbers and not looking at the invisible metrics of things that, know, the responses from people, you know, maybe you didn't like have a blowout, you know, sales for it, but you got like, you really like got a lot of great feedback from people. You as the artist feel like you did a really great job and you're proud of yourself ⁓ for the art that you created, right? But when you do shift, at least in our experience of what we've seen and mine, even in outside of fragrance, just all these years of. you know, working in marketing and all that stuff. When you stop focusing on the heart of the idea or the concept and when you're focused on the metrics, metrics are really important. But when you're only focused on the metrics, right? And the sales and all that stuff, I think that's where the soul unfortunately gets lost a little bit because those two things don't talk to each other ⁓ properly. Josh: Yeah, I think people. Maybe they feel it and they don't actually see it, the scale at which private equity is eroding the quality of life in the world. ⁓ Speaking specifically towards the fragrance industry, what do you feel gets lost when perfume is treated primarily as an economic growth vehicle instead of this kind of cultural artistic object? Stéle: 100%. There is there are a lot of issues with and this was we were saying as well the invasion has begun. ⁓ is the enemies are at the doorstep and nobody is paying attention. I say this a lot. Niche used to be interesting. It used to be compelling. It was special. And now it is diluted as fuck. And the reason why private equity is in there. Michy: Mm-hmm. Stéle: and they are pushing things based on the numbers, based on the reports. What happens is, I'll give you a very simple example. ⁓ Certain people will shill specific fragrances, and I don't mean content creators. I mean people that are related to selling a product based on stock return and investment that they have in that brand. Now there are certain private equity groups that literally invest in perfumeries specifically and take out of their margin and they invest in brands and they take out of their margin. Now what they do is they then take those perfume brands and they put them at said perfumeries. So they're making money three to four times. So you took a product that you were maybe making 25 % and you are now making 80 % on a product that is already 80 % marked up. So basically from what they would have made, you're talking about almost 160 % from costs with this system. But what you're in a point, you're like, okay, so great. They're making money. Maybe good, maybe not good. But the thing is what happens is then set perfumeries are set to push these products that are invested in by the private equity groups. So basically when you're told buy this, buy this, it's so amazing, it's so amazing, it's so amazing. But when you are, you're selling them something that is only being sold because it was invested in. So the actors will, you know, they'll bring in a good brand, they'll bring in an underdog, they'll bring into this all of its write offs, you know. ⁓ And this also works with the larger apparatus that I can't even say the names of it, but the governing bodies of the fragrance world. You know, they'll bring in their, ⁓ you know, tokenized entities that they can say, okay, we're good, we're legit. And then the whole system rides on promoting brands that are invested on brands that are donating brands that are putting ⁓ money where they're expected to put money. ⁓ So again, it's a bad thing because what it does is it doesn't let creativity win. It does not let actual ⁓ things happen based on how they were made, based on how they are presented, based on how people react to them. It's all about where do you put, ⁓ where the funded dollars will lead us to. And imagine we're a world where none of that existed. ⁓ What would we have, you know? I mean, you'd have sell, know, rightfully so where things exist at their own merit. You know, I always tell people when they come to the store in general, like you're going to do as good as you're as you're going to do. Yeah. We don't have sales quotas. Mitchie could tell you, unfortunately, there's no commission. I mean, it's just against it's against what we like. And we've talked about this before, but you know, it. It's been an interesting challenge to create an environment that thrives off sales, but isn't focused on sales. Because you know what? We've to keep the lights on. These candles, we've got to replace every single day. we do need to sell fragrances, and we do need all that. But I personally, and I know Jake feels this way too, I just don't want people to leave feeling like they were convinced to buy something or ⁓ pushed to buy something. We believe in everything that we have here and everything that we have online, maybe that might not be in stores or anything like that. And while it might not be of someone's taste, we do believe in the quality and the artistry that was put behind it. yeah, mean, listen, this is also something I don't know if I thought it in my dreams or ⁓ said it before, but I think... ⁓ Unfortunately, I think we're all culprits of this corporate, sloppable, private equity ⁓ kind of takeover of the world. And I'll speak outside of fragrance for a minute on it, but I think it definitely applies. These companies that are, and we just went through it with a ⁓ vet that we tried to go to with our dog. was like they had the branding and the logo and the TikTok videos. The doctors were in the TikTok videos, the this, the that, right? It was just all just so perfect, right? But what was missing in the middle was the heart. And our dog went undiagnosed for something, right? I think that's something that it almost hit us right in the face, because we had these kind of thoughts of what we wanted to talk about with you all a couple of weeks ago, obviously. And we see it time and time again. But I think, unfortunately, you know, we bought into it, right? Cause we didn't just go to the independent vet, although we used to have ⁓ one, we like, you know, switched it. We were like, ⁓ this looks like shiny new, and I can get this whole package and you know, I pay for it up for the year and I get this and all the shots and you know, like just using it as example, right? Like, but at end of the day, there was no heart. was no per there's no real person to talk to at the end of the day. And I think I'm happy that we're part of something. And I think we all need to remind ourselves that where we put our money as consumers, right? Like it is what's feeding these machines. So of course you can't avoid all of this because the corporate private equity is everywhere and like we all need to live our life. We have a lot going on in our lives and there's a lot to do in a day that sometimes you just need things to be easy and things to, know, and unfortunately that is part of what they offer. But ⁓ as much as we do that, we should all at least for me, like, I have a renewed sense trying to like really, really support small businesses, shop around, ⁓ you know, find ⁓ doctors or vets or whatever, have you, right? That are like more on the independent side. ⁓ Because once you kind of get deep into the kind of corporate venture backed world, you realize there's actually no one responsible to talk. Because private equity does not care. And it does not care more than you know, for example, you look at the whole Sachs debacle right now, and how many, you you think of the Sachs debacle and you think, oh, whatever, right, big brands and so forth. But it's funny, me and Mitchie know someone specifically lost their job from this. I was just telling Mitchie about it. And, you know, you think that it affects normal human beings. And if you look up, if you do some research, and this is just a little bit Googling, you'll see that the company that purchased that literally does this habitually. Michy: No. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Stéle: This is what they do. They buy ⁓ places and liquidate them. This is not like a made up thing. And this is a private equity kind of thing is they don't care throwing money around because they don't mind taking losses. They don't mind writing off losses because they'll make it somewhere else. They don't mind selling a failed company and liquidating their assets. You know, they make their five, 10 % and they're happy. And this also comes down to all those, you know, discount websites and Michy: . Stéle: different things that you see coming up and over saturation of brands, because at the end of the day, the reports need to go to private equity that they see the sales. And if they don't see the sales, you need to create them. And one of the ways to create them is to just offload product on discount websites. Sorry, gives you, know, basically they get to give the report. I sold 500 bottles. If you made 10 % less, 30 % less, you know, it's hard also the report that might not break down right where the sales actually went to. Michy: So how do you feel that you can protect the independence of taste and voice when the industry rewards scale above all else? Stéle: there are many parts to that, right? It comes down to what does success mean to you, right? ⁓ What does it take for you, for your capitalism to be satiated? ⁓ And ⁓ once you understand what your goals are ⁓ end result ⁓ is different for everyone. Now, regardless of where you need to end up to be, where you need to end up, right? I think with the advent of Stel specifically, you see ⁓ Stel-style perfumeries popping up across the country. A marketplace is beginning to form. The reality where you will be able to have your fragrances in 10 to 15, ⁓ independently owned perfumeries around the country, ⁓ highlighting independent brands, like they were meant to be highlighted. The day is here. It's not coming. It's here. Now, your focus should not be to get into that retailer with a bunch of locations, your focus should be to get into that retailer that highlights who you are and how you want to do things. Now, if all the great brands actually focus, and I say the great brands, say the independent the independent brands focused on say, on finding those shops and putting their products in those shops, not thinking of, ⁓ I need to go to this big one and have in order of 50 bottles and this my big payday, you know, the big payday ends there. Now, you want to build a community, you want to build a national, a national wave, you know, find those special places across the country. They exist. They're there. They're opening up every day. Every day I see another perfumery opening up. I saw one that opened in Boston. You know what? Instead of you would think I'd be, we would be stressed. I am happy. I think the economic mode needs to grow. Maybe it needs to get smaller for style, but it needs to grow. People need to continue opening up places. Every single state should have an independent perfumery. Now, when that happens, you're talking about in industry that probably generate close to 50 to a hundred million dollars, right? That is a lot of marketplace. Now, if we focus on the bigger boys, right? What happens then? What happens is once they don't need you, they are going to flush you and kill you. That's what they do with anything. Once you don't serve a purpose, you end. Now I'll tell you like this, there are certain brands at Stell Josh: Mm-hmm Stéle: that we stock because we love the people, whether they sell or don't. That is not a normal business approach. That is very stupid. But you know what? That is, you know, if I reach for it, and I love it personally, I'm going to stock it. If that person is a wonderful person, and I've had amazing interactions with them. Michy: Yeah. Stéle: We are going to stock And we believe in their Obviously the work has to speak. there has to, what I'm saying is that humanity is a very powerful thing and we have it. We just don't believe in it as a society anymore. And the marketplace is here. My plea to all the brands are all independent creators. Focus on the perfumeries that are independent. Focus on the independent voices. Focus on the human people out there. They're there, connect with them. Michy: Okay. Stéle: The marketplace that looks now much more, know, collectively, marketplace is massive. And it's only growing. And I would say the same thing for all of us when we're consumers, Like, support your local perfumery, support independent brands through your local perfumery. Also support the brands on their own channels, right? I think that's kind of... Josh: Yeah. Stéle: we're moving away from like kind of like the corporate venture capital of the conversation, right? But it's all kind of like connected. We as the consumer have the ability to somewhat eradicate this, right? Now, all of these venture backed companies and all that, we see it all over the city and I'm sure it like happens in a lot of cities, right? There's a big pop up and you've got free ⁓ gift bag and you've got like all this stuff. Most people go and just get that and then leave, right? And that's cute. I don't know, when I first moved to New York, I loved all of that. But like, I think as adults and as consumers and all of that, us included, like we all should think a little bit more about, wisely about the choices that we're making as far as where we put our money. Because unfortunately, that's the only thing we have control of these days. Michy: Yeah. And I think it's never been more evident that where the money that these huge VC private equity, where they put their money and, you know, zooming out into the macro of things when we want to really look at why our country is in the state that it is in. It's because these businesses have essentially more rights and more influence on our government than the people do. And it's because they're able to invest. Stéle: Yeah. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Michy: and able to lobby and fund, ⁓ know, essentially give money to get our representatives to vote the way they want them to do, not what's in the best interest of the people. And that's never really been more evident and more blatant than I think it is right now. And I think when we're talking about fragrance and, you know, people love to say, well, perfume isn't political. Everything we do is political because everything we do, everything we spend our money on is Stéle: Yep. Yep. Michy: coming back to bite us in the ass because we didn't think about these things for so long. Stéle: Yep. Yep. And we were coerced by the, you know, I don't know exactly how to put this, but like the, the way that it's built in a sense where you've got this almost like, you know, hyper customer service agent that is fake in a sense, right? All of your questions and concerns are being handled. You've got a refund just because you didn't like it. Michy: . Stéle: You've got like all that, right? And that feels good. That's great. You know what mean? You got a little something. We're all struggling, right? In one way or another. So it's like, it's cute, right? But I think unfortunately they're playing us all in that because, know, at the end of the day, they've got all those funds to just refund you if you didn't like it. They've got all those funds to have someone on 24 seven to, you know, go through whatever customer service questions that you've got, right, and all that stuff, and go back and forth and like coddle you and all that stuff. When at the end of the day, you know, you're just looking, most people, I would hope, are just looking for a great product from an honest business, right, and an honest creator of that product in that sense. So I think, unfortunately, they've played us all in that sense because it feels almost like you're getting a free gift every single day from. Michy: . Stéle: from all this because they've got all this money to win you over. But at the end of the day, if them winning you over is pulling you from real people and real groups of people who are running their own businesses. I mean, my hometown in New Hampshire is a perfect example of this. Like it was ruined by like Walmart, the Walmarts and the K-Marts and all that stuff, right? That's all that there is now there. ⁓ Michy: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Stéle: you know, my town is one of those used to be towns, you know, like, so I would, it would be really, really sad if that would happen ⁓ to what I think we've all collectively built and when it comes to the more independent artisanal fragrance category, right? Like, I feel like, I know that we jumped in on a time that it was already booming, but I feel like it's been even more booming, you know, in the past few years. Michy: ⁓ yeah. Stéle: So I would hate for that to move backwards. think it would be great if it would just continue to move forward. It's up to all. Michy: Yeah, yeah. I sent Jake a video the other day and it was kind of a light bulb moment for me of like, there is really a disconnect and people don't quite understand how different indie fragrances operate versus the large brands. it was this creator complaining that a brand didn't want to do or didn't approve further to be a commission on the bottles that they were selling. It happens to be a brand that we Stéle: Yeah. Michy: we carry so I was of course like immediately defensive. And there's this idea like, okay, if I'm talking about a product, I deserve to get the 15 % off, I deserve to get the commission, I deserve a discount, you're making this product for pennies on the dollar and it's like, but you're not talking about, you're not talking about a Louis Vuitton, right? You're not talking about a $600 bottle that has an incredible markup. Josh: That's not how that works. Yeah. Stéle: It's two different things, right? Michy: You're talking about an indie brand that's barely even a year old that does not have the funds to, I mean, they're not even marketing themselves like that on social media. So it's, it really was kind of eye opening for me that there is a huge disconnect and that people don't understand that small businesses cannot operate the way that these large companies. Yeah. Stéle: that same way. Yeah, but it does come to the reality that we mainly look at everything through that lens. Yeah, we automatically assume it's pennies on the dollar, because everything looks that way. Because most of it is that way. Right. But I mean, for example, I'll just give you an example here. I'll take even you know, the most basic this is one of the this is an amazing brand, right? very special, but I'm not going to say about this. This may not be the best example because this is an artisanal brand. know, the fragrances are just phenomenal. Forty proof, one of my favorite lines. them out. Completely sold out, but check them out. Michy: I know. Stéle: My buddies, you just look at this over here now, right? Stock bottle, right? How much does this cost? Let's just say three to $4. Labels, you know, because it's not 10,000 labels, you know, you know, maybe another 50 cents to $1 each. Then if you look at getting oil now being the fact that, know, again, They cannot make a large run. can afford not in this case, buy all the materials to make them to make them to do everything. They can get those cheap prices because they don't make 10,000 meters. They don't do that. You know, everything is micro. So let's just say they're spending $3,000 per fragrance, $2,500 per fragrance, you know, and at the end of the day, there may be pumping out 300 bottles. The math on that is not as good. Once you consider that guy has to pay rent. probably feed his children time and the time and all the time the effort and the fact that he has to sell 50 % cheaper to retailers and ship it out and deal with customs and deal with all these other things. Now when you look at a big brand who is basically buying something from one of the big oil houses pre-packaged and paid for, you know, and ordering by the way, just so you know, just I won't say names, but one of these little indie companies that you know and love everyone. Michy: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Stéle: seven, their minimum MLQ per SKU is 744,000. So just letting you know, like this idea of some of these smaller indie brands that everyone idolizes is literally, I think milk cartons are probably less available in this city. You know what mean? But, I mean, I, but, but. Michy: Okay. Josh: There's like three points that I want to drill in there. So let's break this apart. find this is like the meat of this conversation, I think. So we all know some of the brands that we loved that have sold to private equity. The acquisition announcement has come out. We've seen it happen. But there is this other aspect to it that you just mentioned that some fragrance people might know about, many of them might not. Stéle: Thank Michy: Yes. Josh: So can you talk a little bit about what a large oil house is and how that is kind of the kiss of death for a perfumer to approach them? Stéle: Yeah, so I mean, the large oil houses, you know, they do have what they would call an indie program. ⁓ And the indie program is one that is meant to give the oil house an edge, if you will. And why do they need an edge? Because if you go to a large oil house, what their bread and butter is, is probably in a hand cream that you buy in an aisle in Duane Reed for $5. Now, that being said, the people who develop said hand cream or said body spray or said deodorizer want to know that they're in the same room of something cool if you will. Now, they have these indie programs where they'll make, I think it's a 3000 piece run per fragrance. Michy: Mm-hmm. Stéle: When you work with an independent oil house, ⁓ the process is you work with a perfumer on staff and you go through your ideas and so forth. And you get to where you're intended to. When you work with a larger oil house and you don't have a lot of flex, meaning you're not buying 10,000 liters, what you end up with is whatever they have on the shelf or whatever they have. ⁓ whatever their one or two mod is. again, it's not necessarily a bad thing, but the point is that it could be a very bad thing. ⁓ Why can it be a very bad thing? Because you end up with a something that someone matched and it's kind of like when you take that game where you put the shape into the cutout, you don't really... Yeah, it was meant for it, but... That's it. It was just meant for it. was nothing special about it. There's no uniqueness to it. It fits. And that is a lot of what you get from the oil houses you get. fits. Now again, that being said, I can't say that there's not amazing projects that come out of oil houses. There are, and there is a lot of creativity, but more my issue with the larger oil houses would be almost interesting products, interesting content. lines and brands that are created through large oil houses. Now, why would you take people whose standardized operation is to create things that sell to make something interesting? Granted, they're artists and they should have the capabilities and the abilities, so I don't want to, again, discount that. And I think that they can do, but I don't think ⁓ if I was trying to... ⁓ do something the best, I would go to the people who specialize in it. And that would be to the people who schedule to specialize in creativity, who specialize in taking chances. I remember we once had ⁓ the C suite of Procter and Gamble schedule a day here. And a lot of big corporations will come to sell and they'll set and they'll schedule inspirational walkthroughs. We'll walk them through things and they'll buy a lot of things as well. And I don't think it's to copy anything at all. like people think. think people, the mindset in the oil houses is always geared towards market. And again, it's not by choice. These are massive corporations. They're a lot bigger than you know. ⁓ It's just the way it's built. And the people then who work there always think of numbers. And I remember the perfumer there told me, know, ⁓ in a way I envy these perfumers right here. They could just do what they want. Yeah. You know, and that's something very special that happens in our spaces. happens in the independent, for example, there's one independent oil house that we really love. It's called Flare. ⁓ Wonderful perfumer, Margot is just such a talent and her work is all over Estelle. ⁓ She's an icon, you know, you know, the point is when you work someone like that, they're just trying to get to Michy: Mm. Stéle: the end of the ⁓ brief, they're trying to get there. They're trying to understand what you want to make. And they'll keep on trying until they hit it versus, know, this is what it is. This is it. And that's it. Now, again, not a bad thing, depending what you're here for, right? If you're it's not necessarily a bad thing, because that is what there is. But if I wanted something truly creative, truly interesting, and that's why I always come off at one brand that Mitchie you know, Michy: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Stéle: which one I always like go off on it and I get really annoyed by it by the hype of it all. It's because I find that mainly they work with major oil houses and I don't and it's a brand that's based on creativity. But how would you go and try to just be creative while leaving out the biggest field of creativity? I feel like it's just a blind spot, you know. Michy: Yeah, I'll take a moment to shout out some of our favorite like independent perfumeries. Like if you are if you were somebody who are starting your own brand, but you don't necessarily want to be the perfumer, Tale of Two Perfumers have made some of my favorite fragrances this year. Gus Romero, ⁓ Michael Nordstrand, Marissa Zappa. mean, Margot, I mean, these are these are perfumers that you can hire that are not ⁓ that are not at the big oil houses, but that can still help you build your brand. Yeah. Stéle: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Josh: by OSM. Michy: Blend by OSM. Agreed. Stéle: Yes. Yoshi perfumers apprentice has been trying to now ⁓ not so much to stuff, but to help to make an oil house for perfumers, ⁓ which is going to champion low ⁓ and have very low the cues. ⁓ You know, work with good ingredients, quality, quality build, but they're trying to do A to Z for it for small brands. And I think that Michy: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Stéle: they're doing something really special over there. I definitely would look into them. I think they're also gonna be at be at Fumed, Michy: So since we're talking about oil houses, it is something that a lot of people like to push that like, well, the oil houses are also making the dupes. So how do you see dupes? Are they a natural response to the originals or built from numbers and charts? Stéle: So I mean, it's funny that you say that when most do not most, but a lot of dupes when they're created, they usually go to the original perfumer to make the dupe. ⁓ The reason being is because who best to make a copy besides the person who made the original, right? ⁓ Now, the dupes category, the sad part is, and this comes back to the original statement, you could only create a dupe if the original has no heart. And why do I say that? If you made something with numbers and charts, it's not a dupe, it's just another number and chart. Is it a dupe? I don't see the first one was a fake, the second one was a fake, and the third one is going to be a fake. They're all fake. There's no realness to any of it. So no one makes a dupe of space fluid. No one makes a dupe of cathedrals. Why? Because, you know, it's just not a duped products. So don't make something that needs to be duped and no one will dupe it. Josh: Well, I actually ⁓ just saw a TikTok from Bryson at Alloy Studios that ⁓ he had been told by someone that his perfumes were too expensive and they were gonna wait until there was a dupe. ⁓ their response was quite clever, but I also thought, know, imitated perhaps, but never duplicated. Stéle: Like, I mean... Michy: Yeah. Josh: not only for the types of ingredients that they're putting into Alloy Studios, but the perspective would be lost. Stéle: I mean, like, there's no... Yeah. Yeah, and the heart of it, right? And like, there's honestly, you know, nothing wrong with just wanting the dupe and all that stuff. Like, we're not judging anyone, but honestly, then go just find a cheaper fragrance that's like its own thing, right? Like, versus like, I don't know. Personally, I have, not only do I have... Michy: Yeah. Stéle: issue with the dupes, but I have issue with the slicing and dicing of the liquid of it all, right? And I'm not gonna name any names or anything like that, but when I see like the option to not support the artists ⁓ either directly or through their partners like us or whoever, any of the small perfumeries that are coming out, but to like... Michy: Mm-hmm. Stéle: need like, like ⁓ the decants and all of it, of it all right, where you've got like, I'm going to get like, you know, all that. So like, I think that's, that that's, that's also an issue, you know, I think. know, I will say though, to, to affordability factor and the fact that people, you know, this is a very expensive thing. And although decants you remove from the creators and so forth, but at the end of the day, people should not bankrupt themselves. And if decant is your only access to something, buy it. also, we are very much strong proponents of the aftermarket. We think the aftermarket is very important. And the reason why we think so is because we don't believe things should die on a shelf. shouldn't die in your basement. They shouldn't die in your drawer. Sell your shit. If you are not wearing, you didn't grab it within the last three months, sell it. Someone else, can find a beautiful home. Someone can enjoy it. circling back to dupes for a minute. If it's made with heart, it can't be duped. But if you're buying Baccarat Rouge, buy the fucking dupe. Don't buy $500. You know, don't do it. Mostly $500 on a $7 fragrance. I have been told that it costs, I'm not saying that one specifically, but I've been told a lot of designer fragrances cost $7 to fill. I know this from the horse's mouth. ⁓ So just don't be an idiot. Buy the dossier one buy the thing again, it is something that was created for market by an evil corporation. Yes, and buy an evil corporation. The you know, they made it now you buy it for less. Go for it. But when you're talking about something someone like Bryson, like put their heart and soul in it. I don't care if they took it through a synthesizer. You will never be wearing Bryson's fragrance unless it's his. You will never be able to strut down the street unless you're wearing his fragrance. that's, that cannot be rubbed off. Yeah. I think again, it's hard because this, the fragrance has got, I mean, it's, it's very large, but also like we're experiencing a growth of, of a very specific aspect of it where it's a little bit more around an independent creator. Michy: Thank Stéle: whether that's on a creator of a brand that's putting all their heart and soul into the creating of the Maybe they're not the perfumer, right? But they are like, they're orchestrating a whole massive project, is quite an undertaking to do as an individual, or you're the perfumer doing it all. I think that's, the situation in that case is a little bit different, right? Where you've got, other than these like major oil houses and all that stuff, right? So I think the point that maybe, we feel and we've noticed and trying to get across is that it's, you can't treat one in the same, right? Like you can't take advantage of the one in that corporate way that we all do, right? ⁓ Because it's just like, ⁓ that's the man and like, he's got all the money, right? It's not the same thing when you're talking about these independent creators, independent brands and all that. This is someone's like rent. This is someone's ⁓ funds for the next... sense that we're all going to love or project we're all going to love, right? So I think that's more where we get a little bit more passionate about things because it's not just one world that you can apply the same, in our opinion or my opinion, ⁓ consumer behaviors to, Michy: Yeah. So we for our audience, we are going to pause here so you can give this a listen and we are going to upload a part two for you as well so you can hear all the other things that we have to share. ⁓ Josh: Yeah, tune back in for the invasion part two. Michy: Yeah, we love you. Bye. Stéle: Bye guys.