Josh: Hello everyone and welcome back to part two with Michael Nordstrand. this was actually recorded over a month ago and the episode was corrupted. Everyone has technology problems. so fresh off of Scentfest, Michelle DeLorenzo: Thank you. Josh: we're sitting down again to re-record, but it sounds like we have some more topics to cover. So thank you for joining us again, Michael, and apologies to all of our listeners for the delay in part two. Michael Nordstrand: Yeah, great to be here. and I'm actually I'm not mad to have a second go at something. Maybe I can be more eloquent this time. So we'll see. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah, and there's definitely there's definitely more that have has developed over the past month. So I'm kind of glad we're doing this now and and getting some more information out there. But let's let's jump in. when we left our last episode, we kind of started touching on the subject of authorship and what that means in the world of fragrance. So when people talk about fragrance, they typically talk about the brand, but rarely the perfumer. So why do you think that is? Michael Nordstrand: I think perfumers by our very nature of what we do on our day-to-day basis is think so much about what we do as an art form, as a science. It's all of these things that kind of come together to make our career very unique to us. And I think widely appreciated by many people, even if they're not aware of it on the day-to-day. And that's because we typically work on what are commodified art forms, products, things that you can buy. A lot like fashion. Like a lot of people might wear you know, a little black dress, but they might not know that originally it might have been Dior or Balenciaga. They don't necessarily know the names. They might have heard the names. Of course, now I think when people think about Balenciaga and a dress, they think of more of like hefty bag than classical. anyway, the Yeah, right. The the Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Pretty much. Michael Nordstrand: the thing that I think is easy to forget is that there's somebody behind that. And it's not really just the perfumers behind it. There are many things that go into that product ending up on a shelf and smelling like something you would want to wear and talk about. so I don't think it's in most cases, in my experience anyway, it doesn't seem like it's because people don't want to talk about it. I think it's because it doesn't always occur to people. it doesn't necessarily always register for them or or rank highly on the radar. And I think When I've had conversations with people whose content, for instance, that I admire, writing I admire, those people often respond in a way that is very open and understanding of, you know, they you can almost see the aha moment when you speak with them. And I think those are really great conversations. And I'd like to have more of those. And I'd like to also hear from not perfumers, but from everyone else that participates in what is a broader ecosystem about what You know, what are pain points for them? What are pluses for them? How do they operate within the confines of what they're doing? And how can we reach across to each other, understand each other better, and then ask each other better questions and hopefully improve all of the different areas that fragrance touches in our lives? Josh: So when you're talking to authorship, it's more than just attributing a perfume to that the person who made it. It's really opening a conversation about the inspiration and the process and how people are consuming it. Michael Nordstrand: Right, absolutely. It's you know, it's as cerebral and as artistic as any other medium of artistic expression. it's to me, it's like, how do you understand Mark Rothko without understanding who he was, that he existed, that he did what he did for multiple reasons, and that even just The way he would, he thought the painting needed to sort of control you rather than you sort of viewing like a small portrait of something and be being able to decide I like or like it or I don't like it, I respond to it or I don't. He wanted it to sort of command your presence and even to the degree of lighting rooms very dimly, except right around the artwork, meaning you have to be close to it to view it. And I think like his color field paintings, people can sort of see them on the internet and sort of dismiss them or in a book. but he never intended them to be shown that way. Because if it wasn't sort of arresting your whole attention, then it might lose the the communication that he wanted you to have, the emotion, the experience that you were meant to have. We're a little bit luckier with a lot of perfume, you know, provided the audience is sort of open to it, of giving them a fuller experience, something more visceral, because smell just goes right in. It gets in whether you want it to or not. I mean, whether it's like a clinic happy or something that I never want to smell, or it's you know, a beautiful, amazing creation that you have smelled before and it brings something back for you, we can sort of reach in and touch something in people that I think is easier to do sometimes than other art forms. And yet it's also easier for us to be kind of invisible. there's more of us now out in the limelight. I personally am not a lover of that, but I do like to have conversations with people. And so I find myself sat in front of video cameras a lot more than I thought I ever would. anyway. Michelle DeLorenzo: Now now you've got the audio to do it. Michael Nordstrand: We've got a real microphone. Michelle DeLorenzo: so do you do you feel like perfumers are are adequately recognized today or or in the in the past? Michael Nordstrand: I think perfumers are more widely known to exist, which before was a barrier to entry. it wasn't always clear that somebody was doing that. there was that, you know, pretty big gulf of about a century where there was it wasn't clear who was making products and who was doing what. there were a few that were known, but they were known to whom they were, you know. maybe they were clients or something like that. Those people knew who they were. But other than that, they were relatively anonymous in a lot of ways. I think the big sort of push toward perfumers stepping out of the shadows, which sounds a little bit like more I don't know, mysterious than it actually is, I think pushing them out into the the forefront, A lot of brands found a unique selling point, a unique opportunity there to showcase something that was not well known and not understood, and they saw a chance for a new narrative. And that's where sort of that became more popular. And then, of course, like Frederick Maul put names on the bottle. there there are people who have moved things forward one or two steps. but I think the first primary motivator has always been. Will it make us money or earn us notoriety or showcase our expertise? I mean, when you watch an LMR video, which is Laboratoire Money Grammy, the naturals arm of IFF, one of the big six companies, and they have beautiful raw materials. When you watch raw materials video, you're well aware that it's an advertisement. there's no question about that. But they, of course, you know, get the shepherd's crook and pull some perfumer in and say, talk about this raw material, because They want people to understand what the perfumer does with it and how, even if that raw material is so expensive that that perfumer has probably used it twice. And both of those times were probably when they were in school. Josh: some of the marketing that we do see, I use the term marketing loosely, but like the sixty minutes episode where they're willing to attribute a perfumer when it's something that's going to bring them attention, and then if it is a lesser known perfumer, they can be left behind. Michael Nordstrand: Yeah, absolutely. again, if they're if they're able to get more out of it than just making the perfumer look like they have agency over their creation, which I think is not a prime motive motivator at all. I don't even know if it's a secondary one, honestly. I think it's like a tertiary side effect of putting them in front of the camera. I think that they see dollar signs and that's really what I mean let's be honest that's what drives this multi-billion dollar global industry is money. a lot of us are we're trying to make a living, of course. but that also creates odd tensions and gaps in knowledge and things that don't really make sense to and so the fact that there's so much still so much marketing, narrative, all of those things being driven toward make the consumer dream a little bit, but don't necessarily like like science isn't as sexy as art, maybe. I think they're both equally sexy, but a lot of people might gravitate towards something that feels less cerebral in a lot of ways. And so I think the the marketing, thank you Francois Coty, is to just sort of make people use their imagination and touch their emotions. And you know, that's led to marketing around sexualizing perfume and or orientalizing perfume fantasies selling you something that you can't get at your local drugstore or maybe you can. it's just always a kind of carrot stick situation, like dangling, getting somebody to sort of follow it. And I think that the the big miss that has historically happened is people are more and more, even you know, in the last decade, I'll just use that as my metric. they're more curious about all of the different things that go on to create a perfume. And so the little bits that they've seen, the public, it's made them want to understand more. It's made them more curious. The more people are talking about fragrance, mentioning anecdotes, things like that, the more it sort of drives the curiosity. And so there's a white space there that I think. perfumers should be filling. I don't think the company should decide when the perfumer speaks about a raw material. I think they should be able to do it anytime they want. And there are a few perfumers who will, you know, they probably don't run their own Instagram because I know how tough that can be. But they they communicate about this raw material or that creation, things like that. But I think we're supposed to be doing what we're supposed to be doing. And it's not always something we can do to to be communicating. So It gets a little bit lost sometimes and I wish there was more of a drive to educate that could come from the companies with the biggest resources and the most time and the biggest teams of people that can manage things like this. I mean, watching a Robertay video where they're talking about tube rows and they cut to a scene of jasmine or they're talking about bergamot and they show, you know, an entirely different citrus that's not bergamot. I won't say which one, but it's a constant Michelle DeLorenzo: Ha ha ha. Michael Nordstrand: that you find out there, there's a lot of opportunity that they're missing as the bigger companies in not doing education, which would make their consumers better educated, of course, and therefore probably more discerning. There's a lot of good feedback that I think they would get if they would just do a little bit more Michelle DeLorenzo: I feel very passionately about a lot of these brands not offering education, not even just for their for their consumers, but for their their sales associates as well. I know a lot of companies have cut back on that entire arm of their of their organization. And when you are in a space where your consumers are far more knowledgeable than maybe they have been in the past. And we're looking for fragrances not just because they smell good, not just because they're coming in for what is viral, but because they're passionate about fragrance and maybe want to speak to a sales associate and learn a little something that maybe they didn't weren't able to just Google and find out. And when those sales associates fall short, it feels like a like a missed interaction. It feels like a missed connection that could have happened rather than the here, let me spray this on you, you know, smells great. You should get it. Let's talk about it, you know. How is it making you feel? You know, this is where these ingredients came from. This it it's it just seems like such a I mean, it's the educator in me speaking. It's how I approach sales when I'm in the store. It's how I approach my content. Like I'm always hungry for knowledge. So when I see people who who the the line just stops there, I'm like, why? Don't don't you want to know more? Don't you want to go deeper? But maybe, maybe I'm wrong. Michael Nordstrand: You know, I I feel I feel similarly. I I think something that happens now more and more you know, historically the pinnacle of the knowledge about perfume, and I think probably always the pinnacle of the knowledge will be at the perfumer level, probably about cr the raw materials, for instance, and things like that, how it actually really operates and works. but then historically there's kind of been this, okay, perfumers are at the peak, maybe, and then as you go sort of down the mountain. There are different stops along the way, and those stops correspond directly to levels of knowledge, sort of degrees. It's almost like this, you know, this vertical that you go through. And the consumer has always been seen as like in the valley, essentially. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Michael Nordstrand: and sometimes they're sort of in the shadow where the light never touches. You know, it's kind of like that never quite gets to them. So historically, I think that's been the thought process, but I think we now have peaks and valleys, and so we have consumers who are they've been climbing the peak. For decades now, and some of them are quite close to the pinnacle. And when they see down below a sales associate trying to sell them something, it's a turnoff. It's not just a missed opportunity in that case. It's a ugly yikes. like I personally am always, you know, going around retail and things like that and seeing what's out there. It's part of my job to know what's happening in the world of fragrance, and I get what I call the perfumer ick. when I get like a nonsense story or like an incorrect bit of information. But I also realize that even though I have that visceral reaction of, ugh, I can't believe that's what they just said. That's not true. I'm also very, very aware that I have a huge privilege in the knowledge that I have. I've worked hard to attain it, but I also am very privileged to know what I know and be able to do what I do on a daily basis. So I always try to think of people who are passionate in any kind of a way about fragrance, I want to meet them where they are. And then I want to sort of take them maybe to the next step and keep sort of guiding people, shepherding people. That's really important to me. you know, you see a lot of posts out there now about, I hate when people say this and I hate when they say that. And I do too. There are a lot of things that I don't care for that we do in the fragrance community globally that I think we could do better. but I also think we have to give people a chance. If somebody's passionate enough to take to video and talk about fragrance on a daily basis, that's something we should encourage and we should find a way to encourage it. And we should be having more dialogue and less monologue. Everybody's just I think the the isolation of being in front of a device and recording and not having conversations is your voice, I think, just starts to take on a life of its own. And you just sort of start rambling and it's almost is it into the void? I mean, you know, where is it going? So I think the more we're talking to each other, responding, going back and forth, the more interesting the conversation actually is and the more enriching it is for everyone. Michelle DeLorenzo: There's always there's always those handful of people that I'm like, is this your first time talking to a real human? But I still try my best. Josh: That's how I feel most Mondays, to be fair. Yeah. I do think it's interesting. Michael Nordstrand: Yeah. Josh: One of the points you made around Rothko. you know, we don't often talk about fragrance the same way we do art or fashion or music or literature. You know, you never hear someone saying, Here is this great masterpiece of an oil painting by the Medici family. Michael Nordstrand: Right. I mean can you imagine Josh: We don't you know, we're not like Michael Nordstrand: that? Like Cosimo di Medici, this painting. It's unimaginable that yeah, I can't believe that. Yep. Sorry, go ahead. Josh: And I I think it was in the lost episode. It may have been in the last one that did make it out, you're where where you made the the analogy with Tolkien and Lord of the Rings and like there is so much value in acknowledging who the perfumer of a work is. outside of the marketing aspect, it can be, as we titled the episode, a vehicle of discovery. Cause you get to learn more about why and how and who is buying this fragrance. Michael Nordstrand: Yeah, the people's personal motivations, their background, their experience as human beings, their emotional experience, their often oblique path to perfumery. I mean, there aren't all the perfumers in the world did not go straight up the ladder, you know, from chemistry to perfume school to internal school and or junior perfumer, etc. A lot of them did something else before. They were, you know, chemical engineers or they were philosophers. There there are a lot of different people who have come to perfume, you know, at whatever stage that they're at in their life. Often as a second career, even if that was a more early-on adoption of a second career, a pivot, you know, whatever gradation of that you want. to me that's fascinating because there are often times where you can tell f in some way, as a perfumer to perfumer, this perfumer must really care about this thing, or there must be this aspect to something that they experience or that they think about. I think of Ugar Charon at Mann. Who's very musical. And there's something quite lyrical about the way he approaches a fragrance. And knowing that is something that can unlock, I think, another, you know, level of what he does, another access point for people to understand. And, you know, like you said, it's just kind of strange that that doesn't feel like, you know, not only like just a proper context, but like a vital aspect of what you might consider around the fragrance. Michelle DeLorenzo: How does it feel for you when you see your work discussed without mention of your name? Michael Nordstrand: It's tough. and it's not an ego-driven thing because the work does speak for itself. I think my work can stand on its own and it can be successful, kind of like you know, if Hieronymus Bosch had never spoken to Josh, you would still love this painting because it's absolutely sublime. So I think you can have an appreciation of something that I've created or that another perfumer has created without having the name attached to it. for someone like an independent perfumer and to some degree even a perfumer in a big house, knowing that that name is attached to that creation, it could allow people to understand that that perfumer is someone that they like, whose style that they admire, and therefore they could sort of follow them around, another vehicle of discovery for us. But when I see that my name isn't mentioned, I kind of think, hmm, You know, I saw somebody the other day who has nearly 400,000 followers, which to me is absolutely unimaginable. It's wild. talking about a fragrance that launched recently. And I thought, gosh, that what if I got one client from that? Because I'm trying to keep the lights on at my studio, right? Like I have employees, I have you know, things that I have to do, I have bills to pay. So oftentimes if somebody mentions my name or the studio or something like that. It means that one or two clients that are looking for a perfumer find me that may maybe didn't find me before because, you know, I was told by a 21-year-old a couple of years ago that having whatever, however many followers I have on Instagram, you can check and tell me later, is like having zero followers. So out of the mouths of babes. but Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Michael Nordstrand: that's sometimes it's as simple as I really need more business, and it would be great to just have the even if you don't want to talk about the perfumer in a video or something like that, just sort of a tag or even the name, you know, whatever version of that it is. there are some times where it's a bummer because sometimes people really loved the fragrance. They have something amazing to say, they've written something beautiful about it, something that feels like we actually talked the two of us, that person and me. And I never see it until somebody else finds it or I come across it by accident. Sometimes Many years later I've come across something like that. And I I feel sad because I feel like there's a connection that we could have had. And it's like you said, Michelle. It's a misconnection, you know, like I it's it's somewhere that like we could have had a beautiful conversation about this. We could have enriched each other's lives by having a chat or just discovering each other's love of fragrance, or there's so many things we could be doing if we were talking to each other more. So Michelle DeLorenzo: you know, going back to the idea of vehicles of discovery and taking it back to the to the comparison to not mentioning an author of a book, when you when you read a book that is life changing, you follow that author. You read more of their books forever. Michael Nordstrand: Forever. Yeah. Michelle DeLorenzo: And the same can be very true of fragrances if you follow the perfumer. You know, this It's something I always encourage people to look into because if you really connect with a certain style, now it's not that every single one of your fragrance is going to smell the same, but there is that thumbprint on everything that a perfumer does that carries through. You know, I one of my favorite independent perfumers, and I'm gonna you know, shout him out for the the millionth time, is Chris Undy. Everything that Chris Undy does is so spectacular to me. And, you know, no matter what brand he's creating for, I need to I know I need to at least try it once, you know? So it's I think you would open up a whole world for yourself as a fragrance lover if you're not following brands. I I there are very few brands that use multiple perfumers that I can say I would own every single fragrance from this house. But there are perfumers where I've smelled all of their work and would own and in some cases do own every single one of their fragrances they've Josh: Yes. Michelle DeLorenzo: created. So Josh: Yeah, I think being able to follow a perfumer from brand to brand is that vehicle of discovery, especially if you really like their work, but it's also a great way to expose yourself to the broad talents that perfumers can have. I was just mentioning to Mishi when I was putting together the slideshow for my July tray. I was like, I have like four fragrances by Jerome Epinette. Apparently the way he does fresh hot weather fragrances resonates Michael Nordstrand: Fixed. Josh: with me. And I didn't know that until I decided to actually start tagging the perfumers that I was putting in the tray. Which came from our discussion last time. Michael Nordstrand: That's great. See, this is what I mean. We had one conversation, well, two conversations. We're having three technically. but Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Michael Nordstrand: you know, that is all sometimes it takes to get people's curiosity piqued and have them looking around and considering more layers to something. and I think th what I actually notice is a lot of people will Try to gauge by the notes that are listed for a fragrance whether or not they'll like it. And so like consider something as sort of simple and humble as a pear. A pear can be sort of overripe renaissance painting pear. It can be Effervescent in a you know, sort of tall ure with sparkling water and lemons and ginger and all these different things. It can be the most floral, beautiful pear tree, and blossom. There's so many ways for the perfumer to treat a simple note that is it's not describable in one word in that way. that I think people get really Not intimidated, some maybe do, but I think some of them get a little bit sort of lost in translation around, well, it has pear, I love pear in fragrance, therefore I I will hopefully like this one. And then they're like, Well, the treatment of pear in this one was not for me. it's kind of like saying, like you could say to somebody like in general, I love mystery novels, but that does that's like It could mean like it's Tom Clancy. It could be Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, which was part of the inspiration for this jacket today. Josh: Yeah. Michael Nordstrand: so no big deal. I I think like when you say the authors, you immediately have an understanding that these are totally different styles in a similar genre. So to say, mm-mm, I don't like florals. Well. you know, it's sort of that kind of, well, have you seen them treated by this perfumer or that perfumer? it's kind of like, you know, most people wouldn't completely say they hate like one entire genre of literature or art necessarily, unless it's very specific and they just can't get into it, they don't understand it, which is totally fine. That does happen with fragrance too. But I think the following, you know, Following the perfumer is like following the author, whereas following a note or a fragrance family can feel a bit more like following like a genre. And you would never say that you love every book from that genre. Like I love fantasy, but there's a lot of tomfoolery in fantasy that I can't do. Like there's Josh: Yeah. Michael Nordstrand: a lot of there's a lot of absolute boobery that I just can't commit. I can't get into it. And I can get into a lot of l like really strange things. Like Anne McCaffrey's Pern series was really weird. And I was able to get into it. Mercedes Lackey, Griffin stories. I can get into the craziest stuff. you know, I read the Silmarillion every year, but I can't get into things like God, I have to choose an example that I don't make a lot of enemies. I couldn't get into Harry Potter personally. It was I think I w I aged out of it before it got to me. And so I just never I always felt like it was pastiche. It was always sort of knitted together like as a lover of mythology and a lover of older works, I couldn't get into this idea. But R. E. meeting people where they are, so many young people. got into fantasy because of those books and say what you will about the loon who wrote them now. those books Yeah. the but we're not Yeah. Yeah. Not give not giving her Michelle DeLorenzo: Lots to say about her. Josh: Yeah. You dodged a bullet, not being a fan. Michael Nordstrand: any airtime on that. But the the point of it was I thought they were silly. I didn't like them. and the font size was like it's like fourteen or something ridiculous. So I couldn't do it. And I thought This is really, you know, I don't like I hate this. This is stupid. I don't get it. but a lot of people seeing them talk about it and how they would light up, I actually really empathize and thought this was me talking about the Lord of the Rings and everybody was, you know, thinking to themselves, somebody said elves again, and now there he goes and what's happening and so You know, I I think everybody everybody should be allowed to have their thing. If gourmands is what got you into fragrance, then I'll get over it eventually and we'll we'll get along. We'll sit at the same table. I'm just always trying to figure out like what is your key to your lock? Like what can we talk about? How can we discover something new together and try to be less judgmental always? I think as humans we're we're categorizers, we judge quickly because we we need to oftentimes. But I think in cases like this it's better to be sort of curious about other people and why they're coming from where they're coming from, what's their intention, what's their sort of background themselves. So as much as I want people to know about perfumers and their style and follow them, I kind of want to understand like, why did you become a fragrance journalist? Why do you create content? What does it mean to you? You know, what's the reason? And it can't just be free product. That's where I'm I like to draw the line at everybody like to have free stuff. I do too. Josh: Well, yeah, there's Yeah. Michael Nordstrand: But you know, it's like that shouldn't be the prime motivator and it goes back to like if you follow the trail back and it leads to a dollar sign, you'll lose me a little bit on that. But other than that, Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Michael Nordstrand: let's see. I don't know. Josh: Yeah, I think there's an element to what you were saying too, around following notes or categories or styles of perfume where we as content creators and consumers and collectors could evolve that language a little bit. I used to say I don't like white florals. I have shifted as my palette has evolved and as I've been exposed to more and more perfumes to say I struggle with white florals, I still have a really difficult time with a lot of them. But I I still like some of them. And it's usually dependent on how it's treated and what is being used. So like I don't write off a white floral if it's in the notes. I'm like, well, I I'll be cautious going into this one, but let's see what happens. Because I still wear Corinne by Corrine Reutfeld, and it's a white floral patrolly. Like it the way like whatever is in it, Gardenia. Michael Nordstrand: That's a great illustration of why not to judge just by the fact that a note is included. That is a super patchouli fragrance. It's i one could argue that the story of the fragrance is patchouli and that the white floral is just sort of like in attendance. It's not really even the star Josh: Yeah. Michael Nordstrand: at all. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Michael Nordstrand: It sort of makes the patchouli fluffier. It feathers the edges of the patchouli. It's sort of abstracted. It's not like, you know, if we talk about carnal flower we talk about gardenia from Chanel or something like that. That's meant to be the hero form that it takes. Like it's meant to be about the flowers. So you may not want that. That that feels like a totally separate treatment from something where it's dressing up a patchouli in a sort of gown and taking it out to the ball. That's what I think is kind of intriguing about perfume is that there's no way to really anticipate the balance. But as you said, content creators can elevate that language by saying If you like pear, this one has treated pear this way. It's a very light touch. if you're like looking for a super fruity fragrance, this isn't it. It kind of feels like pear-like, effervescent, like, you know, it feels like an echo here. you know, some people talk about I I think my my most recent one that I saw a content creator that I really don't care for her stuff at all. And I think it's because it's just she does ratings of things and she's sort of like She does like six in a row and there's just like rapid fire and she's got I don't know, it's it I don't think it's awesome. But she kind of will mention things like vanilla fragrances and she's like, if you're looking for vanilla fragrance, this doesn't have enough vanilla. Said who? You know, so there's Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Josh: Yeah. Michael Nordstrand: like these kind of she doesn't say well, she doesn't qualify, you know, like in sixth grade math, they said show your work, you know, like you have to show me how you got to that result, that answer. Why do you feel that way? What about the balance overall of the perfume? How does it how does it feel the gestalt of it, the entirety of the picture? What do you think about it in that way, the treatment of vanilla in total? And then also the temporality of the fragrance. Like most people are spraying it for a video and then they're saying what they say and they're reading a fragrantica note list that's sticky noted onto their computer and they're just kind of going through. And sort of phoning that in, I think, in a lot of ways. There's some people doing that. And you know, cause you can see the eyes sort of darting to the side and you're like, okay, that's what we're doing. So that's interesting. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Michael Nordstrand: But the the idea of I started wearing this fragrance a week ago when I received it in PR. Just say that. We know you did anyway. the the evolution of this fragrance, like I put it on at the beginning of my day and this like follow me around today as I wore this perfume is more interesting to me than 16 sprays and like getting in your eye and trying to cover that and like your eyelash falls off and there's just all of these things that like couldn't be happening that are distracting to me. But I'm thinking, okay, but like you're making one judgment right in this moment with us. But what how did it feel later? Like did you Did you come back after a long day and you had sprayed it in the morning and you actually smelled a little echo of it in your boudoir? Like what what what did you find in that fragrance? And and what found you because you were wearing it? And you know, what did it feel like to be sort of inhabiting that fragrance that day? Or there's so many ways we could talk about fragrance more as like a real narrative, not just like the narrative that the perfumer or the brand wants to tell you or sell you. but what was your narrative? Like some of my favorite content is when somebody tells me a personal story about a connection they made or memory they have, or you know, even when it's something absolutely savage or wack-a-doodle crazy, I just really am entertained much more by that and a personal story that's creative and feels meaningful than a metric. Like lasts this many hours, does this thing, achieves goal, bring you know, it just feels like you're you're sort of like ticking off boxes on a list. And who made that list? Wasn't me. Michelle DeLorenzo: So since we're talking about content creators, why influencers sometimes will tag the perfumer, sometimes will mention the perfumer, but why do you think that they're mostly left out of the culture of credit? Michael Nordstrand: I honestly have thought a lot about this topic, obviously. I really don't think there's one reason. I think for some people there are multiple reasons, multiple factors at play. I think for other people, like I said, it's just they haven't thought of it that way. And when somebody mentions Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Michael Nordstrand: it, they have their aha moment. I think the one area that I'm like relatively certain of, and that will be the area that would be the most difficult to affect change. is people who are doing it to just make money and have content that like drives their fame or you know notoriety, whatever they think of it as, drives monetization. I think if you want to solely do what you do for monetization purposes, it doesn't mean that you don't love fragrance, it doesn't mean that you don't care at all. But I think if that's the biggest motivator and that's what it all boils down to for you, then crediting the perfumer doesn't really get you anything typically. You know, whereas If you truly have a passion for something and this is another layer to that and somebody talks to you about it, it's hard for me to imagine most people would say, I don't want to do that. Because it's actually as much as I everyone, no matter if they've smelled the fragrance worn it a hundred times or they're just experiencing it for the first time, everybody goes double checks the notes. They don't wanna be off if they're talking about it because you know, people can be kind of Savage and comments and things like that about inaccuracy or you know, your point of view versus their point of view. There's a lot of that. everybody goes and checks, and in a lot of places the perfumer's name is right there. You just didn't you you had like three more inches to scroll down and it was there wherever you go to check those sorts of things. it's also something that Google can tell you and spit back out quite quickly as well. It's not very hard to find. You just have to sort of use the right search string to add perfumer into the mix. Like who is the perfumer who created fill in the blank? It's quick. It's as quick as any other research you could do. And a lot of people, I think it was Mintel that did they published some some survey results around like what people were were actually Googling. And the, you know, the top one was the notes, right? Obviously, when they were gonna review content for perfumes. but people would also look at where to buy it. Of course, that makes sense. they would look up, you know, the brand associated with it. They would look up the founder. So there was like all these sort of metrics, and then all the way down at the bottom, again, you had to scroll three more inches to find it, was this sort of almond sliver. And it might not have been Mintel now that I'm thinking about it, but it doesn't matter. There was this sort of like maybe under one percent, like a non-zero sum. but not far off of people looking for the perfumer. And so when you think about how many millions of people engage with fragrance and then how many, let's say hundreds of thousands to be, you know, avoid any kind of like overblown statements. If you think about all of those people and all of those Google searches and what those numbers actually look like, the amount of people that even under 1% that are doing it, it's not insignificant, but it does show up in the way that people interact with fragrance on the internet, you can kind of see it mirrored in the way that they talk about it and the things that are important. And, you know, what a lot of people who follow content creators want and you know, their audiences want, is to know if they should buy that perfume. That's what they're really looking to be told. And I think that's because a lot of people are afraid to decide for themselves. And I think we as perfumers, as industry people, we should have been giving the consumer agency. We shouldn't have been telling them what gender it was for. We shouldn't have been telling them some drama about Some ridiculous thing that's meant to be in the fragrance, that's there's no way that there is. There's all of these things that we don't really need to do to sell fragrance. It can kind of sell itself if we allow it to. And so Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Michael Nordstrand: we don't really, we don't give the consumer and the wearers of fragrance, we don't give them enough credit. And we don't think that they're maybe worthy of education. I'm talking about like as an industry, when I say we, which I'm a part of, whether I want to be or not, for that reason. I don't think of people in that way. I think we should give people the chance. Every person should get an equal opportunity to learn something about fragrance and to be interested. And we should be giving we should be platforming that and we should be talking about that Michelle DeLorenzo: I definitely put quite a bit of onus on the brands, especially the brands who are working with with multiple perfumers who are unwilling to talk about who their perfumers are. And I feel like I was kind of Kind of living in a bubble in this indie world in the US, because you know, we all kind of know each other and having this conversation with so many people and so many content creators and store owners, it's all like, well, yeah, duh. Like we have to talk about the perfumers. And when I went to Essences, the first time this bubble really kind of like popped for me, where I was speaking with a brand that I was really interested in in learning about them and, you know, wondering why I haven't seen them around. And You know, talking to the to the owner, we were jiving really well. He said he was the perfumer of all of them. I'm like, great, tell me more. And then he had gotten pulled away. So I started having a conversation with his assistant that was there. And I'm like, yeah, so he's the perfumer. And she's like, no, he's he works with multiple perfumers. I'm like, so who are the perfumers? Well, we don't disclose that because it shouldn't be about who the perfumer is. It should stand on its own. And I'm like, immediately. I think I texted you at that point, Michael. I'm like, this motherfucker Josh: Ha ha. Michael Nordstrand: Now now 'cause I was just thinking like big question mark over my head. Who is it? Now I know. Yeah. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Yeah. And yeah. So it was the first time that it was that like blatant for me that a brand was like, Yeah, we're not going to credit the perfumers. And that really like that completely made me think about that brand as a whole and other brands who are not crediting in the same way and their reasoning behind why they won't do that. Josh: Yeah, that was actually gonna gonna be the commentary I made where there we you know, we talk a lot about the industry, but really it's an ecosystem with different levels. And there are parts of the industry that don't disclose it. And when they do disclose it, it's only if it's a celebrity perfumer that will bring them recognition. And it it is a a weird divide when, you know. Michy and I I think are in kind of a unique position where we talk to perfumers and we find out, yeah, I did this and this, but it's not listed anywhere. Or, you know, you can go online and pretty readily on Reddit find out perfumers that did work but contractually weren't disclosed. And you know, it's this worst kept secret that the industry doesn't care to fix. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Michael Nordstrand: I can't speak from personal experience, but I do know of that happening in the industry. Uh-huh. I don't have any contractual obligations that would prevent me from saying anything that I want to. so I I don't know, that I have to say, like hearing an anecdote like that from Yumishi is like it really chaps my ass. That's how it makes me feel. And it makes me like privately slightly furious and then I have to remember like this that is gonna be a bad actor no matter if we give them more information or not, they don't care. That's not what they care about. And that can be motivated by all kinds of things. And so I won't even comment on why I think that might be because it doesn't really matter because the end effect, you know, like what was it Margaret Atwood who said like ignorance and evil are the same thing if you judge by the result. So mm I'm not saying that that person's evil, but I'm not not saying that. so I think that that part, yeah, like when people do stuff like that, but something else that I there was a brand that a lot of people were warbling about at Centfest SF. And I don't know if I would have been warbling, but I went up there because I was like, Well, what is this je ne sais quoi that this brand has? And they do have it because a lot of people were there and they were curious and people were departing with full bottles of things and all that stuff. And I thought, well, I'm gonna have to smell this and we will see. And maybe it is excellent and I've been missing out. So I went through and I smelled them all and I found them all completely unremarkable, totally ordinary. one was maybe like you know, I would elevate to kind of interesting if X number of things had been changed. but the the the overall idea of the brand to me was interesting visually and the concepts around it were interesting, but then there was like a failure to launch in terms of the the the juice inside. And so I didn't really think that was great. And so immediately the perfumer in me is thinking, well, who was tasked with this working with the brand? Like, because when you work with a brand, you're not the only voice in the conversation. you are part of a dialogue. Again, another kind of dialogue. And sometimes that dialogue gives you more agency and sometimes it gives you less. And so I can commiserate with perfumers who've created something that felt like their work was sort of winnowed down or, you know, sort of like the middle of the middle of the middle into entropy. it was sort of like just taken to this place where they felt it was mediocre in the end and there were mods that were be way better. And so I could commiserate but I said to the the gentleman that was running the booth, Who's the perfumer behind this one? Because this was the only one that I thought I would even lift in my hand to even have a conversation with anybody about. And he looked at me quizzically like that was a very odd question. And I kind of furrowed my eyebrows and I said, Did I lose you? What's going on? And he was like, I I don't know. Michelle DeLorenzo: I think I was there for this moment. I think I was across from you. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Michael Nordstrand: You were actually now that I'm thinking about it. And I took to my phone immediately and in two seconds I had the answer and I yeah, it was you that I just said it was so and so, who I won't mention. And what is wrong with you? You can't answer basic questions like that shot that should be it should be written there to begin with. But if it's not, the person running your booth for you, because it wasn't the brand owner that gentleman that was Michelle DeLorenzo: No. Michael Nordstrand: there, it was Just some guy, I guess. I don't know who it was, but that's something that I do find a lot. I think sometimes brands are missing an opportunity to have a new customer by not having anything to say. He didn't even have anything interesting to say about the creation, which is a crime because it's Michelle DeLorenzo: Hmm. Michael Nordstrand: right in front of him. Although, now that I think about it, my read on the brand might have been the same as his read, and he was like, This is a job. That's why I'm here. So again, I'm trying to always consider where people are coming from and how I could meet them where they are. I did think about going back and saying, you know, there's these websites where they actually put the perfumer and it might be you might be curious to know like that this one and this one worked on this. And then I thought, no, then you seem like Laura Dern in Enlightened if you've seen that show. Having like a nervous breakdown every episode. I can understand how that feels sometimes because you're like, come on, you guys, care. I just want people to care. I want to be agents of change. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Michael Nordstrand: Agents of change could be the episode name. Yeah, I don't know. Michelle DeLorenzo: Agents of change, vehicles of discovery, I love it. Michael Nordstrand: Kinda kinda cracked, right? Yeah, maybe we're Josh: Lots of taglines. Do you think we'll ever reach a point where perfumers are as well known as creative directors and brand owners? Michael Nordstrand: Yes. And I hope to be partially responsible for that. And I'm I'm ready. My body is ready. I just really I really think that we are in a very interesting bloom of a large part of the industry that was overlooked because it was smaller, but it's growing exponentially year over year and everybody Is now paying attention. Everybody is interested to know what is happening with this indie boom or whatever you want to call it. You can label it whatever you like. The point is there are more voices, there are more conversations happening, and that's a good thing. I think people are ready to start talking about what's next. And I think that typically we've looked at these bigger companies and some big brands and things for what's next. We've looked to them for the future, and I think now. They've been sort of measured and found wanting in so many ways that, you know, people are deciding to do it themselves or, you know, go forth and adventure and find new things that nobody's telling them about. And this sort of sense of adventure, I think, is is part of that vehicles of discovery conversation. But I think for agents of change, it's about some people are finding themselves sat in this ecosystem and saying, Some of this doesn't make sense. Like where's the connective fiber? Like I I wanna find the mother tree. Like what I wanna understand what's going on here. how are we all connecting and and what's b going on behind the scenes? You know, what does it mean to participate in some kind of a way? And am I making meaningful change? And so thinking about how to get people talking about the more important topics, the human topics, the the non-monetization topics, that aren't always sexy and they're not always easy and it's hard to be diplomatic and it's hard to sort of not take sides or, you know, be too firm with people. I think we should just be thinking about how to have the conversation, of course, but what we wanna be talking about. What are the topics that are important? Because a lot of different people in a lot of different parts of this ecosystem have different thoughts that I want to know about. Josh: Yes. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Josh: I think one of the things I thought was most interesting, especially during the panel that you were on at Scentfest, was, you know, the question around AI and perfumery. And it was a very there was like a ripple through the room as the question settled, not because we don't have opinions on AI and perfumery, but we were at an event where two different booths were AI perfume kind of focused. And there's this gulf between the consumer and the industry and the perfumer with AI. And rather than lead you into a question, I'll just say thoughts. Michael Nordstrand: Yeah, my thoughts are, you know, kind of what we said last time. The y you can call it the thesis of Osmo, but the reality is that Osmo didn't come up with the idea to do this. They they tagged on at the end and figured out that they could find a different way to do it, auctioning off molecules, for instance. their vehicle of discovery happens to be a Waymo that doesn't have a driver, which still freaks me out. But the idea of The situation is and their thesis, like that they've both the founder and the the master perfumer behind it have said is that we need more, exponentially more, and we need all of these things. They're telling us what we need, which is historically what the fragrance industry has done. And they love to write copy about the fragrance industry, hasn't done fill in the blank here in this many decades or years or centuries or whatever they want to say, and that we're doing it the different way. Well, that's interesting that you say that. Cosmo, because in fact you are being as shallow and pedantic as any other company has been in telling us what we need and what we should be doing, and that AI is inevitable. And that's kind of where I went with it on the panel. I mean, I just didn't even let the other panelists talk first. I was like, I have to say something because I was sat there getting warm about it. Michelle DeLorenzo: G y y you look Josh: Yeah, I did post the the Michelle DeLorenzo: like you're about to explode. Josh: image of you physically biting your knuckle before y you got the chance to speak. Michael Nordstrand: Yeah, you can cut to that if you want to. I give you full permission. the the Michelle DeLorenzo: Ha ha ha Michael Nordstrand: feeling that I have about it is quite visceral because I'm not anti technology, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I don't buy into any of that stuff. Like I said before, typically I'm curious and I want to know more. The problem that I've had with AI, and I've been having these conversations for 18 months. We're going on 20 months now, and so it'll be two years soon. I have been having so many conversations and I've been coming away with either deeply disturbing answers or lack of answers on either side. So I end up with more questions, or I end up with these huge feelings of doubt around. Again, what should we actually be talking about? Does this feel like a diversion? Does this feel like we're are we like inflating this giant bubble and then it's gonna burst because we're doing this crazy, like the we're gonna inundate the entire universe, a galaxy, it sounds like with fragrances according to Alex Wilchko, because we must. the inevitability. So I think AI and any kind of innovation, any kind of technology is not inevitable. Humans make it so. We talk about it as though it's inevitable. We implement it everywhere that we can. If you follow all of that back to its origin source, it's money. And this for me is a wrong sided. It's dark sided. so I think that's part of it. The other part is I think we should be interrogating a lot of different facets of what AI is about because technology, human technology, it grows exponentially more year over year, month over month, minute over minute sometimes now. We are at a a rapid pace. it's rapacious, actually. So I think it just sort of gobbles up people. It gobbles up their consciousness, it it it enables people to sort of just stop thinking critically in some ways. And that's what AI I think, you know, creates a little bit of a pocket there of people who aren't even thinking critically about like how to get to the grocery store the fastest way, or I don't know, just things like that that we don't really need AI for technically. but they're not they're not interrogating its effect on the environment. And Osmo have been asked directly by me and others, what kind of metrics do you have around your LLMs? what kind of effects do they have on the environment and what are you doing to offset those? you know, like and the big six companies, hi. they also talk about how they are carbon neutral by this date and they're all these things. Okay, that's your facility is considered carbon neutral by whatever government regional metrics that you have to meet to say that as a claim. Do all of your employees drive to work? Typically yes, many of them do. So what does that mean? Do they o did you give them like a a supplement to buy an electric vehicle? Like, do you have extra plugins for them when they get to work? I don't know. There are a lot of questions that I just think we're not we're accepting that AI can do things for us or intrigue us, which you know, AI can be intriguing. I can empathize with a perfumer who's told you're gonna be given carte blanche to do basically whatever you want, discover molecules, new do new creations, invent tools that can help perfumers. Increase the palette. There are a million the it's a it's a medieval scrolls length of things that I think sound exciting. But when I interrogate those different line items, I'm I'm coming back with why would somebody not double check, like check yourself before you wreck yourself? Why would you not think Mm, this could maybe not be good for the environment or this could maybe not be good for the customer or the market. you know, if you overinflate the market with product, how does anybody have visibility? except if they use money like a cudgel, which is how Osmo have been using it, or Amwaj, for instance, have been using it. They're not sponsoring this video, or they feel like they're sponsoring everything that I have. Like they're sponsoring May Magazine, Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Josh: We have no sponsors. Michael Nordstrand: they're sponsoring Scentfest. They're they're literally like buying up sponsorships as though they're going out of style. cool story. I mean, doesn't matter. It's just sometimes Michelle DeLorenzo: that L'Oreal money? Or is it Estee Lauder? I forgot which one. Michael Nordstrand: like like I don't need to like take my morning pee brought to you by Amwaj. Like I just don't need to know. again that they have money. I think it's kind of gets to a point where like you go past we're sponsoring a thing and we're we're supporting to we're always just advertising ourselves. They could be a silent sponsor once in a while and they could afford it, number one. But they could also just some people are like mm-hmm brought to you by, you know, fill in the blank. Any kind of sponsorship gives some people fatigue when they see it over and over again. And You know, as a perfumer that's expected to go to different conferences and speak and do different things and want to interact with people, I'm always I feel like I walk in and it's right here. Like I'm I'm Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Michael Nordstrand: staring it right in the face. And it sometimes just feels like looking into the void. I just don't it's not I don't have a problem with enlage as a brand. I don't have a problem with any of that. I mean, I would love to do a creation for them. I was inspired by them very early on in my career. But I don't necessarily think that they need to sponsor every single event that occurs around the globe. I I think they could take a break. I mean, I just don't think I don't think any any brand, any company, any perfumer needs to always be the one. And Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Michael Nordstrand: I think that's where like when I say I didn't imagine I would be in front of cameras all the time or giving interviews or like when the Women's Wear Daily article came out about perfumers union, I didn't know my face was going to be the top of the article, but the writer said a face sometimes is what does it. That's sometimes like a logo is sometimes what does it, sometimes being the key adverb. It's not every single time. So it starts to feel a little bit less like you're being led and more like you're collared and chained somewhere. So I think it's it's not about one brand or one company. It's more about variety. And as the perfume community and as the industry is diversifying in certain strata, not all strata, as that's happening, it's becoming more apparent when it's not diverse and when it is the same sort of a thing. And things like sponsorship or who takes money from whom to grow their company, things like that. Again, I empathize with a brand owner who wants some investment so they can open stores and do things and have resources and upgrade their bottles and their packaging. But I also think there's this like you win some, you lose some, you give up something to gain something. There are all these different conversations that you could have around that topic too. So there's there's many, many different gradations. And I'm not Passing judgment on what is like correct or not correct in a moral way. But I am saying, like, I personally, on this last little, whatever you want to call it, world tour that I was on for the last few weeks, I was feeling like, you know, homage were on everything. And it kind of felt like, all right. All right. I gotcha. I know you're there. So that's all. I just think sometimes we need some variety. Josh: I think that's a really interesting segue talking about agents of change and you just said it a little bit there. Can you talk to us a little bit more about the perfumers union and what it is in ethos and concept? 'Cause I understand you don't have a whole lot of hard details yet. Michael Nordstrand: yeah, so the perfumers union and you know, the name is perfumer forward because I'm the one that decided to do it, and so that feels like a rallying point. And when I said maybe the perfumer is on the peak of the mountain in terms of what we see and what we know, there's much we don't know, of course, but there's there's a lot that I think we can we have some powers to be agents of change, and I think that that could be a way of sort of introducing the topics that I think are important for people to be talking about. The idea of it is less, you know, there might be a unionizing element. There might be, you know, these different aspects, we're sort of seeing what that means, but this all coalesced around these conversations I've been having for the last couple of years around different topics that are important to perfumers, but not just us, important to people that are internal at bigger companies. journalists, like I said, content creators, the average consumer, the educated consumer, all of these different people that are interacting with each other, whether it's simply by, you know, going into a perfume store and purchasing a perfume and that's the interaction or, you know, whatever is happening that's connecting people, I think we need to be more connected and more aware that the other ones exist. And I think that's Beginning these conversations, I want it to feel like a movement. I want it to feel grassroots. I want it to feel community driven. And I don't want to be the head of it, but I I feel very strongly. We we currently have what I would call tenets, 14 of them, and we're in a community sort of beta round with different people that are in different aspects of the industry. And so they've commented on different aspects of what I kind of put together. Which was it was based on some of my own opinions, of course, but also where where that was underscored by other colleagues that I have that I admire and that I respect, or other people that I've spoken to in other areas of the industry. I started to codify them into these sort of like they're not commandments, but they're sort of guidelines, they're feelings, they're sort of announcements that This should be this way, in our opinion. This is something that we feel strongly about. Like authorship, it is a pretty small ask to say credit the perfumer, and it should never be occluded. So often in these tenets, what I'm finding that the shape that they're taking is here's sort of a guideline of what. the thought process is and here's like one or two absolute no-nos, but within the rest it's like the beginning of a conversation. So it's not commandments, it's not written in stone, it's none of that. It's all sort of thinking prompts. And there are some hard stops in it. Like perfumers working for free. Shouldn't be doing it. There should be no prospective work in perfumery. The big houses can do it because the fine fragrance arm is Arguably the prestige arm and makes the least amount of money for those companies. Flavor, wellness, skincare, beauty, those are the big moneymakers, not fine fragrance. It's the smallest piece of the revenue for most of them. so it's really interesting to have this business model where somebody can go in there for free and the perfumers they can afford to pay them salaries and benefits and all that. And have no development fee, and then they just have a large minimum and they mark up the concentrate, and that's how the business model has worked for ages. That works for a big company. But when you have a small company and you know, the limited resources, prospective work is not a brand shouldn't come to me and ask me to work for nothing. You know, you know. Imagine again, it's all I come with an analogy every time, and I think we're gonna have to have these with the tenants because it it's illustrative in a way that is very difficult to just simply explain. Imagine that you're a photographer working for Vogue magazine. Do you only get paid for the one photo or the five photos that are in the editorial thread? Or do you have a day rate? Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Michael Nordstrand: And you know, like the answer is there's a day rate and there's royalties on the other side of it. When your music is licensed as a musician, you know, and historically music had this problem where people weren't being credited for things and weren't being licensed out. And I think, you know, the advent of Spotify and Apple Music means some people do get lost in the liner notes because there aren't liner notes. I mean, you can go and find them in the app, but do people go and do that one extra level of discovery? Not always. So I think the the the compensatory structure, I while I won't define it for everyone working in the space, what I will say is there should be one. If your compensation is PR, your comp if you feel that that's enough compensation, that is up to you. It's not for me to tell you what you're okay Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Michael Nordstrand: with, but you should be able to point to somewhere instead of just, you know, outer space, which is where I'm usually pointing. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Michael Nordstrand: and say, It's not normal that you don't want to pay me for my work. And it's you know, I've had convers I've literally been sitting in front of someone three feet away from them and they say, Why would I pay you a development fee when I can walk out of your door over to Firmenish and work with Frank Focal? Couldn't tell you, honestly. Why would you? You wouldn't. Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Michael Nordstrand: It's not for me to tell you what to do. But I also think like there are independent perfumers of similar size or slightly larger or smaller than I am who are having conversations like this too. And for Josh: Mm-hmm. Michael Nordstrand: some of them, especially some that are in the EU, and I don't think it's through any fault of their own. again, I'm not passing a judgment, I'm making an observation. They are working with this prospective structure. Whereby they're only paid when the client orders concentrate. And that's only the, you know, the client might limit the price of the concentrate, meaning their markup in order to just survive and not be totally in the red on that project and only maybe slightly in the red or get to neutral, is either they have a huge amount of volume and they can expect to get something from that. Or they have to really cut. costs on the ingredients. And, you know, it's not to say that an expensive ingredient is a great ingredient. It's to say if you have to narrow your palate to the degree that you really can't work with much more than, let's say, a hundred raw materials, you're limiting your choices already based on money again. And I don't think that that is the right sort of way to do it. If all of the independent perfumers, so the non-big house perfumers said no free work, then the only we we would have a stronger independent side so that people were that were gonna work in the community in in that side of things, that would be the choice that they would make. and then it would be sort of like a free market economy, like it would be, you know, whatever the fair price was, I'd love to publish like salary ranges or or compensatory range structures. Like they do for graphic artists guild or other similar guilds and things like that. What is a normal hourly rate? What is a normal project fee? What is a normal, you know, all of those things? It would be nice, I think, for people to have somewhere to point to and say, I have a reference and it's based on data, it's based on real conversations, it's based on lived experience. That's something I want to do. So there are a lot of these tenets that are like that. They say there's a problem that I've identified or that we've identified now as a community. Here are some hard stops within that problem. Here are some other things that I think are like a needs improvement and how can that happen. And so many of them are really centered on something like that. And that is my personal thought process about it. Isn't for me to tell you what compensate, like fair compensation looks like for you, but it is something that I think should be provided to you so that you have data. Because a lot of people that I talk to about. You know, I took my first few jobs without really getting paid, and I didn't have a contract, and I I you know, shook somebody's hand, and you know, these types of things we should be avoiding, like any other professional workforce of people. We should not be beholden to unfair business practices. And if we can't trust, always trust people to behave in a way that they would publicly be okay accepting people knowing, then we should be responding to that by having a structure in place of some kind. And I don't again, I don't want to put people in boxes or put fences around them. other than I I wanna put up a fence and allow them to come and go as they please when they need to feel protected. I think that's what to me unionizing is about and gathering people is about. So is that verbose enough Michelle DeLorenzo: yeah, yeah. Then and there is still lots and lots more to discuss about it. You are having your first community gathering this coming August, which we're really excited about. We're excited to be a part of with you and do whatever you know we can with our voices to to lend to this as well, because obviously it's something we both care about very, very deeply. so you've definitely mentioned some of the, you know, some of the standout tenants. What is what is the more aspirational tenants? Michael Nordstrand: So one of them, I mean there are a few of them. you know, some are about education being paramount, originality, diversity, things that the industry could do with much more of always. And one that I think nobody would have an argument with, well, almost nobody maybe, let's say, is Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Michael Nordstrand: that perfume doesn't just have to be commodity, it doesn't just have to be Something that we engage with in that limited way. It can be considered an art form, it can be considered an emotional and intellectual exploration of another side of humanity. And ultimately the the you know, one of the goals, one of the primary goals of perfumery should be elevation of the craft. and that can be done in so many ways that it's even hard to list them. but the idea that, you know, when we're talking about finding wrong feeling motivations being, you know, monetization of everything. Sometimes when you go deeper on a brand or a perfumer or any kind of art creator, any kind of person who's expressing themselves, when you find This feeling that they are really connecting to something larger than their own experience by creating an art piece, doing something artistic, expressing themselves in a way that's, you know, not the maybe most average or common way. It feels really like their practice is stronger and feels more authentic than. Other ones that you can kind of tell are, I mean, people say cash grab, but I don't that might be too extreme. But like when you can see that the motivator primarily is money and there's not a lot of there there, it kind of I think disillusions some people and that kind of like loses you a potential audience. But when you find that somebody's trying to elevate what they do, it doesn't even matter what it is. If somebody hand laminates their pastry and doesn't buy it at Walmart, You appreciate it. You can taste it. You can taste the difference. Ooh. so I can't eat gluten, so I can't taste the difference, but most people. so I think the the idea that you can do something even very simple, but you could do it well, and to do something well is very satisfying, and that there aren't any shortcuts to doing something well. That's that's deeply satisfying as a creator in our métier, especially that's so rigorous. But it's also deeply satisfying for people discovering that, even if they're not totally aware that that's the whole part of why it means something to them, too, is that you're actually touching worlds and sharing something across. all kinds of things with each other. That I think that's really, really cool. And when I have that experience, I mean I I created that whale, ghost whale perfume for Sanyoko. And a very close friend and confidant of mine and a perfumer, she cried. And to me that That's a way of legitimizing. She understood the feelings, the depth of emotion that went into that creation. I mean, it really, there aren't literal tears in that. That wouldn't be EFR-compliant, but I definitely cried a few times doing that. It was so difficult and it was so good for me. but there's a real meaning in that. And I think you don't have to cry over your creation because you're so frustrated, or you don't have to do it the way that I do it. But a lot of people want, I think, to elevate what what they do too and I think that deserves more pride of place in this industry. Should be talked about more. Michelle DeLorenzo: Agreed one million percent. We wouldn't Josh: A hundred percent. Yeah. Michelle DeLorenzo: not have been able to go on for nearly 30 episodes at this point if fragrance to us was merely just a commodity and not the art of it all. I think it's I think it's why the community is so passionate about fragrance and the way that it is. The it's the reason why people are are inspired to make content. The first time I remember very specifically the first time that a fragrance actually made me cry, and it was. Such a light bulb moment. I have not smelled the one that you've done for Sunnyoko yet. So I am gonna emotionally prepare myself for when I do. Michael Nordstrand: No pressure. Michelle DeLorenzo: but yeah, I think it's, you know, I I feel sometimes we're in an echo chamber because this is how we feel and the people we are surrounded by feel the same way. But there are so many out there that it's like, I just wanna smell good. I don't, I don't care about, you know, what's in the bottle. I don't care about who made it. I I don't, you know. Give it to me for $20 and I want to smell good. And it's like, there's so much more to this world if you allow yourself to be open to it and allow yourself to experience things. And I even think of it as a, you know, this this past weekend, I got to be a consumer and not just thinking of things from a brand perspective of what's gonna sell and and you know, and and what's, you know, whatever. But I got to just take a step back and enjoy it and connect with fragrances. on a personal level and not from a sales perspective. and it was really a great reminder of why I'm so passionate about this and hearing the stories from the perfumers, the perfumer owned brands that were there. it's I and I see our role as content creators as not to not to step in and be the first one to talk about it or the first one to put you on But to elevate that art and let people know that this art is out there, you know, for these brands that don't have these huge marketing budgets to be sending hundreds of free bottles to people or, you know, billboards and Times Square or what have you. And because it's the art that's is the most meaningful and it needs it needs our voices to be out there. Michael Nordstrand: Yeah. that's interesting that you say you feel like you're in an echo chamber because I think a lot of us do actually. And so all I think if you really were to say like ultimately what's the goal of the perfumers union, it's to make everybody's experience and world enriched and better. And I think the way Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Michael Nordstrand: to do that is to take the walls down from the echo chamber because what we need is not echoes but resonances. We need your sound waves to touch my sound waves. They need to sort of like go around. And I think the the opening of Those doors or the tearing down of those walls is the first step to doing that. And I think we've s sort of been eroding away at them by virtue of having conversations like this. But I think the the feeling that we need to reach out and and sort of get to one another and have a conversation about something that is passionate. you know, I I think that's that's a key aspect of what we're doing, so that we're not all just sort of talking to ourselves. I think we should be talking to each other. That's that's really it's a major component of it. Josh: Moving towards a closing reflection, you just a kind of a grand tour. Was there anything at Centfest that stood out to you? Michael Nordstrand: I quite loved what Alexandra Hilwani did for Nishane. I thought it was a beautiful sort of multi-layered narrative. I completely didn't connect to the fragrance itself personally. but that didn't take away from my experience. The fact that it was a scented ink was enough for me to kind of understand the Prime motivation bet behind what he was doing. There were there was a lot of layered and nuanced feelings that I could access as a human being through that. the fragrance was like we it was okay. I I thought it I almost would have thought it was more poetic to just like naturally have extracted your own rose water and sent to the ink with that or something. I don't but I and maybe he thought that too. I I have no idea what it was behind the scenes, but He's a beautiful perfumer in the way that he thinks about the creation of fragrance and things like that. He does often exist outside of a purely commodified product, and that's by choice. I think that was very, very beautiful. I also did, like Mishi said, I connected with brands where the perfumers led the charge or were featured in some way. Not because, ooh, we were featured, or they were featured. It's more about. It was part of another layer, another access point, another touch point that I could sort of say, okay, I understand this even better now. I did my panel at WPC with Tian Lai Feng from who does voices from the s voice from the sky and has double horse raw materials ingredients based in China. Got to do that panel with him and then and then came up and experienced his fragrance that he just finished creating for JG Day. Thalea, and it's around chrysanthemum, and it's part of the Conversazioni, the Conversations Collection. And Unbeknownst to me, the the last few months since Paris Perfume Week, I had met Adam. I didn't know who he was immediately. I just thought he was a very nice gentleman named Adam, which he is, to be fair. but he's the owner of one of the owners of Gigi Day, and I ended up meeting all of them this time, and we were having our own conversation about what the next creation would be. And the topic is something quite massive. when I When I talked to him about it, I was I was very intrigued, but I was also I felt nervous, which I don't usually feel when I'm gonna, you know, engage like that. but I was nervous primarily because it was a it was a conversation that he felt I would be perfect to have as the perfumer. it feels like a huge responsibility and it did feel very interlinked with this perfumers union idea and this sort of feeling of wanting to shepherd things in the right direction. And I feel like I have a huge responsibility with just that creation, but also perfumers union. That's why I want to open it up. I want voices of all kinds to weigh in and feel like there's agency in all sectors of the industry, all of this world that we've we're co-creating it live in real time always. if you are wearing fragrance to bed, if you are talking about it when you get up in the morning, there's also so many ways that you can engage with it. I wanna keep doing that. I want to keep enriching this world that we've built together. So I'm hoping that, you know, we can sort of usher the world into a slightly different direction than it's been steering. I don't want to hit an iceberg. So Michelle DeLorenzo: was definitely lots of lots of fun things to discover. I think I really enjoyed meeting Mauricio, the perfumer behind Planet and I'm I'm and herbcraft. Yeah. Michael Nordstrand: Planets and herbcraft perfumery. Yeah. Michelle DeLorenzo: you know, knowing that we come from a similar background and and you know, just seeing his his craft and his take on things. He is such a lovely human with such an interesting perspective. I was really I I had to stop myself from buying multiple multiple bottles because I really enjoyed not only the conversation with him, but the fragrances as well. I continued my current obsession with everything Hildi Saliani, who has made me fall in love with Gorman's again. I think I had come way far away from them for a very long time. Sorry, Mike, you know, I I understand Michael. You're not a not a gourmand person, but Michael Nordstrand: But for her I would be Michelle DeLorenzo: yeah. I Josh: Ha ha ha. Michelle DeLorenzo: mean, she Michael Nordstrand: Spicy milk. Michelle DeLorenzo: spicy milk, man. Michael Nordstrand: I'm convinced. I don't know. Michelle DeLorenzo: I I I'm so Josh: Right there. Michelle DeLorenzo: blown away. So and to the so I did purchase another from her, and it is one of her chocolate ones that is absolutely insane. I I am really Michael Nordstrand: Let's smell. I haven't smelled it. Michelle DeLorenzo: piss poor at Italian, so I'm not gonna I'm not gonna butcher it. but and then there was a moment where Josh and I attempted to film an episode which I I don't think is gonna air because we were so god awful exhausted that it was it was it was it was quite shit, honestly. but so we did a blind smell of samples that we picked out for each other. And the first one that Josh gave me, I immediately loved it. and clocked right away. I'm like, this is so in such an incredibly well balanced gourmand. I wouldn't be surprised if this was Hildi Soliani. And I nailed it right on the head. Josh: Out like the fifteen Michelle DeLorenzo: so yeah. Josh: samples, I think that was like one of two that we got right the whole night. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. so yeah, so it's just just a continued love affair there. But and I think in any of these events, for the most part, it's to me it's always about the community and connecting with everyone. that is so, so special and feeling the absolute joy radiating over everyone to not only be, you know, surrounded by fragrance, but surrounded by the people that we we share this passion with. you know, from all over the world. So yeah, it's always it's always really beautiful to come together. Josh: I know we were gonna have a whole episode talking specifics on Scentfest, but I think some of my highlights were smelling the upcoming Whispers of Melancholy collection by Scent Drunk, of which you Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm. Yes. Josh: are one of the perfumers. Michael Nordstrand: I am. Josh: as well as several perfumers that we know and and adore. So that was very cool exposure to that entire collection. I'm a huge fan of Scent Trunk to begin with. and then also just like learning more brands. Like I know Hunk Amsterdam. I've had a longtime love affair with them. I knew Blenderography. I had no idea they were the same owner and perfumer. So like it there was a lot of nice connections made. I just thought that was very Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Michael Nordstrand: Connection is cool. I know when you have again when I say like I think people are ready to have more aha moments. And if we can sort of like you give an aha moment by saying, did you know about this thing? Or we you know, perfumers do too. You run around and we've like learned a factoid or something. It it doesn't have to just be about raw materials or something like that. It can be about, did you realize so and so did this? Or you know, we talk the same way that you do when you're at a conference or or an event. we just sort of run in slightly different patterns where we overlap sometimes, but I'd love if we were all kind of running a little bit more in parallel occasionally, like more often. It would be nice if we did that. And that is why, you know, I agree with both of you. It's nice to come together. I mean, I feel like I've been on a press junket the last few weeks and I'm exhausted. I mean, I was at an event in Boston for Future Society because we launched Wandering Rain and it's been Amazingly well received. it's such an another emotional perfume. my god, I'm gonna be like the crybaby perfumer. it was a very emotional Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Michael Nordstrand: fragrance in a joyous way, not in a tears way. and I wasn't frustrated in doing it, but that's a great example of a brand that has treated me like I am an author, an artist, a creator, a scientist, and a friend. And that's sounds corny as hell to say it that way and in that order. Michelle DeLorenzo: Yeah. Michael Nordstrand: But that is honestly the way that I feel. The team are always lovely to me, no matter if I'm talking to the pr people from purchasing. I mean, I got to meet Jose that works in purchasing at Arkea, the parent company of Future Society. He was beside himself to smell mods of the next fragrance that we're working on, which we'll release in holiday. This is not a paid promotion. Josh: Yeah. Michael Nordstrand: I just I'm really excited because We have a little bit of a shorter timeline on the second fragrance and we're really in it to win it. And it has been really fun so far and it's only been a few weeks. Josh: thank you so much for joining us again, Michael. You're always welcome anytime you have a topic. can you let the folks listening and watching know where to find you? Michael Nordstrand: can find me on Instagram at Michael Norrestram Perfumer and you can find me through my studio's website, mythologiststudio.com. You can also occasionally find me popping up in a video somewhere or an awkwardly taken photo where I'm making a weird face that I shouldn't have made. So there's also that. Any of those are Michelle DeLorenzo: Mm-hmm. Michael Nordstrand: good. Google also does work. It does come up with some interesting results. Josh: Thank you so much for listening everyone and have Michelle DeLorenzo: Thank you. Josh: a great Michelle DeLorenzo: Okay, love you, bye.