speaker-0: Hello and welcome to the Security Cafe. Today I have a very special guest and my co-host, story teller: Quint Ketting Not

speaker-1: special guest.

speaker-0: so special guest because he's always here, right? Then it's not special anymore, but the guy is special. can promise you that. But today next to me on my left, Emily Jacometti welcome co-founder of HackShield. We do a short introduction in five seconds. But today is in that sense a special podcast because we promise always we never sell in this podcast.

speaker-1: No, we don't advertise anything. But

speaker-0: Exactly

speaker-1: this is going to be the first time we are absolutely going to do that. So it will be only focused on what you do, your organization, and you cannot say enough what your organization's name is. Spoiler alert, HackShield.

speaker-2: I feel honored and pressured. No, it will be fun. Thank you.

speaker-0: So maybe a short introduction on yourself and HackShield.

speaker-2: Yes, yeah. This is I hope it's going to be a fun episode. So HackShield we try to make sure that we keep children safe on the internet. We focus on young kids because if you want to teach something, it's good to start young. And today's world is full of new trends and threats and vulnerabilities that also unfortunately impact our kids. So we thought why not try to protect them by making learning fun?

speaker-1: Yeah, sounds good. Old habits die hard, and that's what they say.

speaker-0: Take me.

speaker-2: Yeah, so we created this game. It's so much fun to play. It essentially makes the digital world visual. So when we talk about bugs, they're like little bugs that crawl into your hair. If we talk about the cloud, it's a little cloud in a very big universe. so kids can play and they can experiment. And the most fun thing is they can do everything wrong without the police coming to your house, ringing the door, because you go game over and then you start again. So it's not just fun, it Also is really effective.

speaker-0: So

speaker-1: We will do that in the next part, I would say put this on the parking lot. What inspires you, but I'm pretty sure we get it.

speaker-0: So first, thank you very much, but first let's go into the news because this week guys was quite a week. I think we've seen a lot in the past weeks and months, but in the Netherlands, maybe specifically and in France, Denmark, the whole of Europe, right? It was quite a week. What stood out for you, Quint?

speaker-1: First, who decides to put a fridge on the internet? Why would you do that? Sorry. That's my first question. Does that things come into play in your game as well? Because I'm pretty sure like if you get yourself a new fancy coffee machine or an oven, great that you can do updates on it, firmware updates. But what else do you need? Right? Nothing. I'm coming home and I'm gonna put the, I'm gonna roast the chicken and I need a robot to put the chicken in the into the

speaker-0: The oven or something. Everything needs to be connected and apparently in supermarkets all these fridges and super coolers are on the internet.

speaker-1: So, and I'm glad that you're putting me back on because I was already starting to hallucinate a lot. Yes, so what happened in France in a lot of supermarkets, all of a sudden all the freezers with the deep freezing goods started to go from minus 20 to plus 50 degrees and they...

speaker-0: It's a little hot for frozen beef.

speaker-2: From

speaker-1: It's not warm enough for fried chicken, but it is definitely not very good to keep your frozen stuff for a long time. So that must have cost millions and a lot of stuff would have thrown away. And then of course I started to think what's behind it. This could be two things, state actor or a kid who is really annoyed and found something. Could be both, think. We don't know yet. I don't know yet.

speaker-0: Separate suppliers? So right, two separate suppliers of different freezers.

speaker-1: and we're not naming those brands

speaker-0: both are breached and it's not a kid anymore, right?

speaker-1: Now could be, but the funny thing is they did have policy to change the password every day, but the password was basically changing to the date of the day that we... Yeah,

speaker-0: Sort of a one time password.

speaker-1: exactly. So if you know the pattern, you could run it all.

speaker-2: And don't count out the kids. True.

speaker-0: No?

speaker-2: Police just released a cybercrime report from Europe and it shows that not just the victims are becoming younger, but also the perpetrators are becoming younger.

speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can imagine that.

speaker-0: I just can't grasp a kid doing such a disruptive thing on supermarkets and freezer goods and stuff.

speaker-1: Yeah, but I think in those worlds, and especially if you're into that, I'm like hacker from the end of the 90s. If you wanted to make a name for yourself, you got your name into the newspaper, classic newspaper. Exactly. And now it's like in these hacker forums, also where these kids are probably in on the dark web and stuff. Yeah, it's about prestige. In your game, you showed it as well with the game at L.A.

speaker-2: And the the Com movement as well. It's also about status. Yeah.

speaker-1: Exactly. And then of course, second one was Ahold Delhaize. What could be, it's still not confirmed. Well, they said it's a security incident. We don't know, at least we, as in us here in the room, we don't know who or what was behind of what type of an incident. What we saw is they saw something weird on Sunday. immediately started to isolate those system or network components and took it offline to do investigation. But the impact, especially for civilians, quite severe. must say distribution centers had to let go of all the drivers. Grocery, internet shopping didn't happen, but also the supplying of fresh goods didn't happen. The entire ecosystem basically was quite impacted by that. They said it's a security incident, but that could also be inside a threat. We don't know. So we'll watch this. keep on watching this as well.

speaker-0: And let's do an update when we know more for next...

speaker-1: The Danish incident on the medical...

speaker-0: Public administration, right?

speaker-1: And 8 million records leaked. yeah, root cause very simple. second guessed the password of a system which they used to get into and I'm looking to you now. You know what the password was, Emily? I know you told it already.

speaker-2: I'm guessing one, two, three, four, five.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: was, yeah, it was one, two, three, four, five, six in this case, but yes, it was. that's something I more than 27 years, I tell people start with a very sophisticated password. then you. Yes,

speaker-2: It's a basic skill, right? How to make a strong

speaker-1: I'm trying to teach people not to do that. And how are you doing?

speaker-0: Exactly, and let's be honest, this wasn't for your personal Hotmail account, right? This was to access

speaker-1: It's

speaker-0: 8.5 million records of people, their social security numbers, where they live, who they live with, the whole lot, right?

speaker-1: Again, I've got some opinions about that as well, because I think this was like the one in the Netherlands last year, a third party one as well. And based on that, my opinion is why would you even share the data with the third party?

speaker-0: This is what you have access to.

speaker-1: with a simple barcode, you can identify, make a unique identifier to what's ever been tested. that's the part I don't get. I will not judge. There must be reasons for it. I don't get it. It feels very strange.

speaker-0: Yeah, it does.

speaker-1: But over to you, back to the question I said. So I am significantly failing with my awareness towards. Do you do that?

speaker-2: But the short answer is by making it fun. I mean, if you want somebody to actually do something with the information, they need to be able to practice. They need to be able to make mistakes without there being a punishment. so there needs to be a little bit of trust. they need to be able to try again and it needs to be fun. If you want to learn something, the most effective way is a game.

speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, I like it.

speaker-0: So the gamification in awareness, in the human risk factor.

speaker-2: And it's also very strong on the side of criminals. They are also using gamification because it works. Yes. Yeah. And it works for kids, but it also works for adults.

speaker-1: Yeah, and I said in this podcast in the past as well, it works for my dog and it's not a very smart dog, know, but if I give him a treat, he definitely wants to do something again for me, you know? So it's positive.

speaker-2: And it's we always compare it with homework. So if I want to teach you about the internet and I will give you the option, do you want to read a book about the internet? Or do you want to play a game? Do you want to, you know, challenge yourself, experiment, go through levels, earn points. I think I'm underselling it if I say ninety nine percent of kids will choose a game over a book. Why? 'Cause it's fun.

speaker-1: When I was young, that's a long time ago, we had a game in school. It was for geography to see which majors and you could fly on a Commodore computer, Commodore 64. Nobody remembered those things, but you could fly from city to city. And that's why I still know every city in the Netherlands, because I love that game.

speaker-2: Talk about retention. Yeah. You still know

speaker-1: No,

speaker-2: all the cities 30 years later. So

speaker-1: It was yellow, you know.

speaker-2: I don't have to explain that if you have a fun experience, that retention is higher. And research also shows that if you look at gaming as a way of learning versus any other method, there are studies that have shown that it's sixty percent more effective and the retention is much higher.

speaker-0: Here's the living proof.

speaker-2: It's like n when I used when I was younger I used to cheat and I would y write things on like a little note or my hand. Thirty years later the only things I still remember because I succeeded in cheating the system, which is also a form of games.

speaker-0: We did it on this smart calculator in the time that you can put whole books if you sort of jailbreak it.

speaker-2: They're now jailbreaking it for AI. Yeah, exactly. So they're hiding AI assistance on their calculators.

speaker-0: I love it.

speaker-1: Yeah, but that's the innovation, right, with kids.

speaker-2: Yeah. Yeah. And that's also the thing that we seek. So I always explain it's a game to teach kids basic skills so they can go into the digital world safely. But we also see a lot of talent. So we see a lot of kids, usually in the back of the class. They're not on a sport stage or a cultural stage. Well, they're not the loudest people, but sometimes the teacher doesn't know what to do with them. But they're really talented, and those are also the kids that you want to say, you You know, you hacked into your calculator. Why not become an ethical hacker? Or why not become a CISO or CTO? So we're trying to keep the kids safe, but also let them think of future careers. So we try to, you know, talk to them before the criminals do and guide them towards yeah, jobs of the future.

speaker-0: So what type of age groups are you guys looking at?

speaker-2: Primary school. So it's th there are a few reasons. Seven to twelve is the age group that we focus on. I'm not sure if you have kids, but I have kids that's older. Really hard to convince them of anything.

speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, my oldest is actually right in between that group.

speaker-1: Mine are like stubborn and stubborn, 19 and 22.

speaker-2: Yeah, it's such a difference. So after twelve it's much more difficult to talk about these topics. They already have a phone, you know, so

speaker-0: everybody have big opinions about it.

speaker-2: Exactly. So we look at the young kids before they go onto the internet without oversight or before they get their first device. We try to already give them some basics. It's

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-2: like swimming lessons. I spend a lot of hours with my kids in a swimming pool, going from a little bit of water to the deep end. Yeah. But when it comes to the internet we sort of go into the deep. You're on your Yeah.

speaker-0: Fun, yeah.

speaker-2: So what we do is we start at seven and then we Guide them onto the internet, we give them not a swimming diploma, we give them a title, junior cyber agent, which is also actually a title that's acknowledged by the police in several countries. and they also have to help their parents and grandparents. Yeah.

speaker-0: Really good. So if I would, know, my daughter in that age group, I know for a fact she did not get this on school. Do I give this to her as a parent or is this something you go via the primary schools? What's the best approach?

speaker-2: The best approach is to be everywhere children are. So we have, you know, a part of the game that you can play at home at the kitchen table. I always say on any device from this century. So that will work. Then we also, because not all parents give this to their kids or speak the language or have devices, so we also go to schools and then we have a lesson program on the digital board. So no phones in the class on the board. And it's really structured to make sure that kids also talk to each other. And it's fourteen lessons where we dive into a topic. Okay. And then we're also in communities, which are usually libraries or events. yeah. Sports clubs. Anywhere where kids are is where we try to also be available. So you can give it to him.

speaker-0: Yeah, can go with that tonight at home.

speaker-1: I this only in the Netherlands, Because I think one of the reasons why I wanted to see you guys everywhere popping up, right? I saw Hungary, I saw Sweden, I Belgium, France, all those things. So it's getting out of hand as well from a positive point of view, I think,

speaker-2: Yeah, because the Netherlands is not unique. We're not the only one whose essentially whose schooling system is not built for speed. Because that's the problem that we're solving. It's not built

speaker-0: It's not in primary school, right? It's not something we teach.

speaker-2: It's not something that standardized where it's a good curriculum. They do have that in Finland. Okay. So from the age of four they have a standard curriculum. They teach kids about the internet. We don't have that.

speaker-0: We should. I don't know who's listening, but make sure it's we do. It's coming.

speaker-1: Because I think if I look at my kids, as I said, 19 and 22, they were like, my youngest was in the Corona, she was in the Brugklas, the first year of the mid school, high school. And what happened there, there happened two things. One, Corona, and two, TikTok. And those things, I think, have had major, major, major impact, especially the second one, all these algorithms. And what I saw, I saw my kid dancing, making movies and what could be harmful.

speaker-0: it here.

speaker-1: And now we know. And that's really like for me a personal driver as well. We need to start quicker also, not only with the kids, but also with educating the parents what's good and why it's not good. Because I remember the iPad came when my kids were young. So we gave them an iPad. We need to pull on that. so we can do our own things. We didn't see the harm and now we do.

speaker-2: Yeah, and sometimes the harm is invisible. So one of the things we did this year is we talked to kids about playing games. Because they can be fun, you know, it can be a distraction, but there are also risks besides the addiction, too long on the screen, you give them an iPad and you don't see them for days. But there's also a chat function which allows them to talk to strangers. Yeah. Parents don't know that. Do kids know who they're talking to? So we asked them, we said we created a special level which is something that they can do for a quarter.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-2: Yeah, exactly. They can play exactly. And we also asked them questions. And 160,000 kids played that level and 85,000 kids answered our questions, which gives us a really good sample of you know what's happening in their world. Exactly because we want to know what's happening in your world. And the news was that one out of three talks to strangers. Yeah. And they know they talk to strangers. Two out of three say, I don't know if I talk to the the strangers or I don't. Or I think I don't.

speaker-0: Strange is a stranger if you've met him twice on the internet, right?

speaker-1: This is probably what you just mentioned how talented young kids are being recruited by people as well for harmful stuff.

speaker-2: And I was raised by my parents not to take candy or get into a van. Yeah. But those people are not in the schoolyard. They're anonymously on the internet places where children congregate.

speaker-1: And they give you certain gameplay in what's it called, Fortnite or whatever they do these days.

speaker-2: Exactly. And I'm not saying playing games is bad. I'm not saying each stranger that you talk to wants to do something bad, but we have to realize that if there's a lot of kids in these games, there's going to be adults there and it does pose a risk. There are going to be people with bad intentions and if the parents don't know and the kids are not prepared and the platform is not safe and there's no clear rules, it's just a big

speaker-0: risk

speaker-1: So like Roblox basically and the problems that are, I think for a long time we are aware of what is happening there, you know. So what, one step back, so what motivated you? And that goes back to, of course you must have had a background probably in teaching or something. or do you have a background in cyber? So how did this all happen?

speaker-2: Curious. Okay, so I have a background in gaming. I've been in the games industry for almost twenty years, which is one of the most fun industries. I

speaker-0: Always. Outside of cyber, of course.

speaker-2: Maybe second, but gaming is first. No, but I always explain it's not making PlayStation games for sixteen year old boys, which is usually what I get. Like, you make no. We use games to teach knowledge and to change behavior. And we've done that for years, trying to do good in the world. It's called serious gaming or gaming for good or applied gaming. and we've done amazing things, and then a couple of years ago. I brought my kid to school and the teacher recognized my last name, Jacometti. And she said, I think I had you in my class 30 years ago. Wow. And she is amazing. Like she's the best teacher. I took all my kids to her. But it's also a bit of a metaphor because she invited me into the classroom, and I always joke that I still recognize the posters on the wall because the educational system is not built for speed, it's You know, it has great curricula and it has a we have a great system in the Netherlands, but if you go to this classroom and then you walk outside and take your smartphone out of your pocket that is such a

speaker-0: world.

speaker-2: exactly. So what happens between that classroom where everything is still the same and the world that is different? What happens to our kids? So we started asking these questions like do they get lost? Who prepares them? What goes wrong? And once you look behind that curtain, you think, my god, there is so much

speaker-0: Something about this,

speaker-2: exactly. So I went back to my company and I talked to my co-founders, and they were all on the same page, and we said, We have to do something. So we created HackShield as sort of an experiment where we said, Maybe we can give something back. And then it got out of hand. and then after a year, corona broke out, and then people And kids' parents found their way to us by tens of thousands and we were like, my god, there are so many people that need help. So we had a conversation and we said, What are we going to do? And we said, We're going to quit what we used to do and we're going to put all our time, effort, and energy and money into making sure people are safe on the internet.

speaker-1: So you're non-profit, right?

speaker-2: We are a my god, the governance. We are a social enterprise. Yeah. And we have three golden rules because in different countries there's different entities. In the Netherlands there's a stichting with an ANBI status and an NGO in Sweden. But everybody has the same rules. One HackShield is free.

speaker-0: So for the children and parents, it's free of charge to...

speaker-2: Free and when I say free I mean it. So also no advertising towards kids. So no selling candy to kids.

speaker-0: My daughter was actually yesterday doing some timetable exercises on one of the websites provided through school and it had advertisement in it. Really? She could buy stuff. Unbelievable. was like what's happening here? Did I do something wrong? That's weird. This is what they got from school and there it was a more gamification piece instead of the app that I bought which does not have that much gamification. It's just answering the questions and... trying to repeat it.

speaker-2: I think you can do that in schools.

speaker-1: think that's a boundary that should not be crossed.

speaker-2: Yeah. Yeah, but unfortunately a lot of big tech does that. Which leads me to the third rule is we don't sell their data, which is also a model that big tech uses. So free, no advertising, no data sales. Ethically great because that means all kids can play.

speaker-0: make it work.

speaker-2: Commercially very difficult. Exactly. Because we have a big team in the Netherlands. It's forty three people. And you do have to keep the lights on. So that was a big challenge.

speaker-1: You do that because I said we're going to advertise about you

speaker-2: Rule number two.

speaker-0: Get your checkbook.

speaker-1: guys. You probably need companies and other organizations to support your efforts.

speaker-2: Yes, we do. Yeah. And we work so to keep it free and to keep it to give it to as many kids as possible. We work with public and private partners that all help us scale, keep it available. but we also work with them because they have a lot of knowledge which is interesting. And yeah, we have lots of different ways of working with them, but there's also something in it for the companies, that's what we've learned. Because the first eighteen months it was just our own money, but that ran out really quickly. so now we found a way to work with companies where it's also a win for them and a win for us so we can give it away.

speaker-1: Cool. And I think from my perspective, what would be really cool is sharing the knowledge that we have gained over the years in cyber security and get that in the classrooms as well. Yeah. So that's what you also do, right? If, for instance, one of the companies starts supporting, we can also give class lessons, right?

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: I love that.

speaker-2: Yeah. Good, because we need a lot of people to do that. So w one of the models that we have is we we realized early on that a lot of the expertise that we don't have because we're game designers, artists, educational specialists, lies with the private sector. a lot of cybersecurity companies know what's happening, they know, you know, how to mitigate risks. So what we do is we work with cybersecurity companies, they help us by Sponsoring us, but they also ask their people to volunteer time.

speaker-1: Exactly.

speaker-2: It's a couple of hours per year. They go to schools, and it's really fun because they give lessons with our materials that we get ready for them, and they're experts in their field, so they're also in a position to give extra tips and tricks. So it's fun for them to do

speaker-0: Yeah, exactly.

speaker-2: something with their time that is in line with what their expertise is and the kids love it because there's an expert coming to play a game. We don't have the normal school program. We have a game hour and they learn a lot about a certain topic with the expert.

speaker-1: was on a couple of events lately where you were on stage, at least two, your own event and another one with Checkpoint. Well, didn't

speaker-2: We try not to overdo it.

speaker-0: I don't

speaker-1: overdo it, I think for this audience who weren't there, what got me really excited was the story you were telling on stage in Utrecht about the kids. that started to do a little bit of hacking at europol at the door. Can you, well, the story better than I do, I think.

speaker-2: Well we tell we we tell so many stories about kids. So I think one of the examples that you're referring to is one of the examples where it went wrong, where two boys were arrested because they were walking past Europol with a Wi-Fi sniffer. This was a big story in the press because it was state actors, espionage.

speaker-0: Yeah, And knowing Europol, they have a thing with security.

speaker-1: already there's a guard coming

speaker-0: That's another good day.

speaker-2: And there was a lot of speculation, but I think the facts that we learned afterwards is that two boys were approached by criminals. They didn't, of course, know that they were criminals, using gamification. So they were just doing assignments, gathering points, earning badges.

speaker-1: They were in a game.

speaker-2: They were in a game. They didn't know they were doing anything wrong. And the other person, the hacker was really trying to steer them towards and actually use or manipulate them into somewhere where it was actually criminally offensive.

speaker-1: And if these kids were playing your game, would they have early days you think?

speaker-2: I think yeah, so you never know. No of course.

speaker-1: But in principle, these type of use cases are there.

speaker-2: Yes. Every I love it. Every ethical hacker that we meet that play our game because there's one specific lesson that tests you on your skills, your hacking skills. It's an a lesson with a timer. I think it's the only one with the timer, so it's extra pressure. And if you make it through all the puzzles within the time, you can earn a golden ticket. And then we work, for example, with the DIVD Academy. Cool. So there's a path for you to become an ethical hacker.

speaker-1: Exactly.

speaker-2: So we try to filter out the kids that have this talent before the criminals find them. We try to steer them towards a career and give them a golden ticket and go to the DIVD. And there is not an ethical hacker I spoke to that hasn't said if I were younger and if this would have been there, it would have been easier or I wouldn't have, you know, gone off the path or I would have had perspective. So that's what we try to do. So We get them before the internet gets them.

speaker-0: And maybe the second thing, because this is a great use case of course, the second thing in that session in Utrecht, the energy of you and the team is amazing. Outrageous.

speaker-1: you

speaker-0: Yeah, it's outrageous. Doesn't make any sense.

speaker-1: No, well, does, of course, because...

speaker-0: There's so much energy in these people.

speaker-2: And these people are really special. I maybe we should cut this out later. But if they would work at other companies, I think they could earn double what they earn working for us. Yeah. But they all choose to be there and they say this is so important. And they most of them, I would say all of them say, I love what I do because I get to see the positive impact every day. I get to hear stories from kids that were bullied, you know, that can end really badly that are now becoming ethical hackers for defense because they played the game with their school and now became child mayors or I hear stories from the police where kids were being groomed and we were actually on time and we prevented that. So they say I love working here because I see the impact every day. yeah but don't tell them they could make

speaker-0: No

speaker-2: at commercial companies. Yeah.

speaker-0: And I think looking at that energy in Utrecht, they don't care, right? They have so much energy, you can only have that when you are really, really passionate and enjoy what you're doing. So then that piece doesn't matter, right?

speaker-2: I hope we can pay them double in years because this is I think what you want. The smartest people

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-2: that are doing this work, that are investing their time and their knowledge into something that has such a positive impact. Yeah. I think that's what you want. You want people to choose these career paths. So I hope we can pay them double at some point so more people will choose this. Yeah. Because I think that there's a lot of good to be done.

speaker-0: yes, yeah. Yeah, and when you scale, it is scalable, right? So when you scale across borders, then this is an international podcast. So I'm looking directly at you guys. ahead and reach out because I think this is...

speaker-1: Guys, sit in Germany already?

speaker-2: So we are available in nine countries. Yeah. we are, I will try to name them Belgium, Curaçao, Cyprus, France, Germany, Sweden, Brazil, Italy is coming twentieth of October. I'm missing one. The Netherlands. Thank you. The Netherlands. And combined, next year we will reach our one millionth child, and we're going for ten million and one by twenty thirty.

speaker-0: Why the one?

speaker-2: Because then you remember ten million is a round number you forget. But you're like, why one? And you we gamified it. Yeah.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-2: And what's interesting about going over borders is the differences you see in the threats in each country. Because we also see what other countries so the f the factory is in the Netherlands and we localize for both content but also culture for each country. But we also Ask these kids questions. So the more countries we're in, the better we can see, hey, Sweden is where the Com movement is really starting to rise. Maybe that will be in all the countries in a year. So let's make sure that we have materials now, push it to all these countries. The Netherlands has maybe more interesting cases of fraud. Okay, how do we protect kids? And how do we make sure that the kids in Cyprus Get our lessons material before it becomes a trend there as well. So the international aspect is adding a whole new layer where we can see what's happening and we can also follow the news, for example, with the social media ban in Australia, that is now coming to Europe. We can also see what does that do and what are the downsides.

speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because that's a new thing as well, of course, from a data perspective and analysis of what's happening then, because if you, yeah, I think kids will be anyway, very creative in finding ways to do what they want to do. They've always done.

speaker-2: And then

speaker-1: That's why I started with hacking as well when I was very young. Well, I wasn't very young, but computers didn't. weren't put on the internet before that particular.

speaker-0: point.

speaker-2: No, but you're right, because that is why a social media ban is not alone is not a solution. No. It's like when you say, Okay, somebody drowned, let's ban all water. Yeah. That's not how it works. If we go back to the swimming pool, you know, we put up a poster with rules, we put a fence around the pool, we give lessons.

speaker-0: We learn people how to swim, yeah.

speaker-2: Exactly. It's the same. Unfortunately in Australia, it works for a big group, but there's also a group of very creative kids That went on the dark web, found apps there, and are completely out of sight of law enforcement. And since we work with a lot of law enforcement, those are things that we learn. Yeah. And that we can apply here thinking, okay, so if we just ban it, we're not done. That's not a solution. No. We need other things because we can see the effects. Before we implement it here, what is a better way to go about it?

speaker-0: Yeah, this is amazing. I'm just thinking about how can we and our security cafe community

speaker-1: community in general, how can we contribute? think as you said, we need to support you as a community.

speaker-2: Please become a partner. I hope that's the case. Please become a partner. That would be amazing. and I also want to emphasize that this is something that ripples out. So it's not just beneficial for kids, it also helps your staff, it also helps parents, it also helps grandparents, so it also works for adults. so there is a big win for all of us. It's a I think it's a smart investment for any company. And for us as a society to make sure that we start young, make sure there's a less damage and impact, and we create amazing talent for the future for all our organizations.

speaker-1: So let's switch gear on doing business, right? Because that's a lot of our listeners, they are from a business perspective. What's in it for them? So I saw a presentation on your HackShield. What was it? Heroes?

speaker-2: Make our events.

speaker-1: Dave from Dave, Dave Maasland, where he basically brought the go-to-market perspective from a company perspective that it actually gives you from a company perspective also a lot of benefits if you become a partner of HackShield

speaker-2: Yeah, Dave gave a really good example because there's three upsides for a company. one is RFPs, two is soft marketing, and the third one is your people. And Dave spoke about the first one where they had a a pitch or a request for proposal. Exactly. Where they entered into a bid, and part of that bid is always that there's a little bit of social return. and we worked together with Dave and we created this program in Rotterdam called Rotterdam Protected. Amazing. And they put that into the bid. And I don't wanna make it too too easy, but I think the short was that a lot of the bids were essentially equal. Yeah. But exactly

speaker-1: And this was a differentiator.

speaker-2: that was so spot on because it was a zoo, so it was also about kids and it was an extra something. It didn't change anything about the bid. They just had to fill that, but it was the r one of the big reasons that they were chosen.

speaker-1: The flip on the coin then is if everybody becomes the HackShield partner then there is no

speaker-0: That's not the only challenge point I want to

speaker-2: I don't think that's a risk.

speaker-1: Yes. Okay, good, good,

speaker-0: Let's get there,

speaker-2: Yeah. No, but it's very for ESET it was very easy because they can put it in and something that they already had to do. There was a direct win. So if you look at boards, it's a very quantifiable

speaker-1: So you spend some money and you do it on a social program, but actually it helps you also in your commercial journeys. It's a good incentive to have.

speaker-0: Exactly.

speaker-2: Yes. And I think that's really how it works. The second one is marketing, especially if you have if you work with civilians or end users, consumers. it's a very soft way to show that you're engaged. You also think about their safety. we work with you on, you know, extra materials, maybe for seniors or for adults. So that's also a very clear win. And the third one is people. Because we live in a time where a lot of young people work at companies and they they hope that it's not just a job, but they also get some purpose. And those programs where they can go to schools, work with kids with their knowledge, make sure that they're happy at their job.

speaker-1: And then of course you identify through the program also the talents and I the partners will benefit from that as well because if you run an ethical hacking company or something and you see there's a couple of good people coming out of the into the pipeline that you see early days, they could benefit from that as well of course.

speaker-2: If we would have done this ten years ago or fifteen years ago, we wouldn't have such a big talent gap.

speaker-1: No, no, I agree. I fully agree. And so my son and this a bit of a personal story. When he was little, I gave him a computer and he did Minecraft. That was before Microsoft acquired that you're from the gaming industry. So he knew and taught himself five years old how to with prompt coding, created all these worlds. And he had kids 10 years, 12 years, 14 years old. They all asked him, can you teach me how you do that? It's incredible, right? So you would have been one of those guys that could have been...

speaker-2: Yeah.

speaker-1: He's now in the game industry. He's programming. He does it as self-employed, he programs worlds for a certain game provider now, from time to time.

speaker-2: And it started at five with an interest and just

speaker-1: Very clear interest. And he basically said recently to me, you know, you can teach me how to hack. You know what I did at school as well. Yeah, we know.

speaker-2: No, but I think so. I'm not here to be negative about games because they do teach you amazing skills, and that's what you want. You want kids to be curious, and you also want them to be creative. Because if we think ten years into the future, right now, the kids that are in school, they're going to join the workforce. We don't have any idea what jobs are going to look like in ten to fifty years. So why are we still teaching them the same skills? Why not teach them creativity? Why not teach them imagination? Why not let them think of what do I need to learn now? Yeah, exactly. So I'm prepared for

speaker-1: Yeah, so we used to run our own academy as well for a couple of years and we basically educated people who wanted to have a future in cyber. And in the recruitment programs, we didn't look at IT skills at all. What we looked at is, as you said, creativity. So if you are a hairdresser, a barber, you're in a... creative profession. Somebody who wanted to become a journalist. Somebody who loves researching. you're an eager person. want to know things. The traits. Exactly. Because these people are the typical type of people with the behaviors that we need in the cyber industry. It's not about the skill of how good you know IT. It's about how quickly can you become familiar with something because you actually want to learn about whatever topic it is.

speaker-2: And it's also the adaptability. Yeah. Especially in cyber. So we it's like a warm bath, the cybersecurity community. We love that there's so many experts, but what we've learned is that it's one of the fastest changing industries. There's something new every year. So what do you need

speaker-1: Basically every month now, maybe every day, and I don't know anymore.

speaker-2: So you need adaptability and that's a skill that you want to teach young.

speaker-1: Absolutely, we say that to our customers as well. You need to prepare, you need to be able to respond and you need to adapt on the fly because the attackers do, so you need to do too.

speaker-0: Yeah, yeah.

speaker-1: Just putting a plan like 10 years ago, you put in a plan and you say, okay, I'm going to improve here and here and here and then you're done. It's like

speaker-0: You're not done.

speaker-1: an infinite game. Every day there will be new players and they will change the rules for you as well.

speaker-2: Yeah, and the world is becoming more and more digital. Yeah. So especially for kids, they grow up differently than I grew up or you grew up. I think you might be younger, I don't know, but it's a different world and they don't even differentiate anymore between the real world and the digital world.

speaker-1: Bye.

speaker-0: No.

speaker-2: So it's so intertwined. So they grow up differently.

speaker-1: So if I get a kid now and a baby, they might think if I ask them, can you do the dog today?

speaker-0: I can ask Gemini or an agent to do that.

speaker-2: I'm just saying we also need to raise them differently.

speaker-1: Yeah. Hey, listen, I hear the bell and that's the bell for the final round. okay.

speaker-2: Did you?

speaker-1: That

speaker-0: Thanks.

speaker-1: means that we're going to wrap this one up.

speaker-0: So we've talked about some things in the news with I think much more disruption than we've seen before. We've talked about this amazing topic, HackShield, and how companies or parents can help our children to grow up a little bit safer than we teach them today. So personally, at least I knew already two, three weeks ago in Utrecht that I'm going to do this with my kids, whether they do it or not. But I think this is a very, very important topic for our listeners, for everybody to be engaged in and to see if your company, if your employer can join the initiative. think this is the podcast. that we do that commercial piece.

speaker-1: Maybe the book?

speaker-0: We do a book or something to read. Thanks Quint. At the end of this podcast, what can somebody in your view should read or watch? And it can be just a thing on Netflix.

speaker-1: something that's also fine because we may be

speaker-2: I have a long list. yeah, it's a surprise.

speaker-0: the number one on the list.

speaker-2: There's a movie right now called The Social Reckoning, I think. Yeah. It's about the whistleblower of Facebook that already knew that they were affecting behavior of kids and how they hit that. I haven't watched it, but I really want to go tomorrow. I've heard that it's scary, but also really good. And then if you want to understand the fundamentals of These little gaming mechanics that you can use for good or for bad. There's this professor that's essentially the one that started it 15 years ago. Her name is Jay McGon Jane McGonigal her book is called I think The Rules of Play or something, but her name is Jane McGonigal.

speaker-0: And we'll

speaker-1: that we put it in the show now.

speaker-2: Yeah, and the Social Reckoning. I think I think you'll leave slightly terrified.

speaker-1: Yeah, for me also a book because I'm in it. Yeah, it will be released this month. It's called Lateral Movement.

speaker-0: Nice. Okay.

speaker-1: It's written by a colleague of ours And it's basically touching every cyber incident that took place in the last 40 years, but then not from a technical how did it happen perspective. And that's what I really like about the book. It's about, okay, as a first responder, how did it feel to you? How did you experience all of that? And this is what I really like about that perspective, because it's the humans that are dealing with the incidents. And as you probably can imagine, if it's a big one, it has a lot of impact on your social life, your family and everything, dependent on what type of an incident it is. I'm not talking like a ransomware, but if you are in a sophisticated attack, it will hit you personally in a lot of ways as well. Yeah, these type of perspective has been written down and captured in that book from all kinds of different. So there will be ransomwares in there. There will be. I was on stage recently in in Utrecht on the the cyber sec where I talked about machine speed. It is not new. Yeah, Slammer was the first one that was 2003. It brought down the Internet in 10 minutes. Yeah, but it was dumb. didn't know a lot like AI does now. But these type of stories will be in the book. And I know I didn't write, but I was interviewed for that part about the SQL Slammer because I was the holy, how do you call it? Who

speaker-0: I don't know what you're gonna do.

speaker-1: was on call that morning, you know when that happened?

speaker-0: The unfortunate guy had to really to fix it.

speaker-1: All that experience, yes, I have to do everything and so that will be in the book, but there will be many more stories. I'm forward to that. Max Heinemeier who was on the show, Dimitri who was on the show, they will all be in the book with their stories. Cool. And many more.

speaker-0: Lateral Movement Good one. Alright. Again, thank you very much for being here and hope to see you in a later version. Thank you.