Varshini Mandradiar: Welcome to the Animal Aspirations Podcast!

Ronit: Our podcast sharing conversations with veterinary students, professionals and people working across animal related tools.

Varshini Mandradiar: The goal is simple, to educate, inspire and diversify the veterinary profession.

Ronit: Today we're joined by Izmima Parker to talk about her journey as a lecturer in Vaternie Public Pair.

Varshini Mandradiar: So let's get into

Ronit: welcome to the podcast, Aziva. I hope you're having a lovely day.

Azeemah: Thank you for having me. I'm very, very, very happy to be here.

Ronit: So to start off, could you please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your current role?

Azeemah: So I am Azima Parker. I am a lecturer in veterinary public health and state veterinary medicine at Harper and Keele Vet School. And at the moment what I do is I am the module lead for the third year veterinary public health and state veterinary medicine module and I lead the final year rotations and I do a bit of fourth year teaching in between.

Varshini Mandradiar: Amazing. we just wanted to start it off. by asking you what inspired you to pursue veterinary medicine?

Azeemah: I think ever since I was, I could say the word vet I wanted to be one and I think a lot of vet students or vets, we start off just loving animals and wanting to be with them and I think now I realize a lot of it was neurodivergence but I preferred to be with people than, I mean with animals rather than with people. a lot more peaceful, a lot more, felt more understood. And then, and I thought that's probably why I wanted to do that. I also wanted to, enjoyed science. There's a bit of a nerd there and those two worked well together. And I made the mistake of thinking, well, I don't like people that much. Let's be a vet. No, that's, that was, that was probably the biggest mistake or the misinterpretation that I had, but that's, that's why I wanted to do veterinary medicine initially. Yeah.

Ronit: What was your journey like through that school?

Azeemah: So I'm from South Africa and in South Africa there is only one vet school which is the University of Pretoria's Faculty of Veterinary Science very very competitive to get in. At the time when I was doing it there was only 137 that they would select per year in the country to get into it and also at the time it was a seven-year degree so now it's six. very, very intensive, long. But getting in was actually the easy part, getting out was harder. So I first, I had to apply and then you do your first two years and after two years you... get selected to continue the course. If not, you have to complete another BSc or something like that. And I didn't get in the first time after I had, you know, started my first year because I'd actually failed first year. There's the saying that is that first year sometimes is the best two years of your life. And that was maybe certainly true for me. And then eventually, yeah, got in after doing, after repeating my first year. some modules so I got in in second year and it was really a great experience studying in South Africa. It is world renowned for the work that is done there. we have a full hospital on site. I got to do some work in the Kruger National Park for wildlife rotations. A lot of the patients that I had was wildlife, especially baby rhinos whose mothers had been poached, that kind of stuff. And very, very broad exposure to species and people. So I think that that was very, very unfortunate to have had that experience to have studied in South Africa.

Varshini Mandradiar: Amazing. I think I just wanted to say first of all, like doing all this wildlife work like Kruga and everything's literally like my dream life. but also were there any like specific challenges or defining moments that really shaped your path?

Azeemah: I think I, in high school, I got away with doing really well and didn't have to do much to just do very well and like I said, it took me, I didn't pass first year the first time round and it's because university is completely different and it doesn't actually matter how well you did in school. It's a very, very different type of situation and a huge adjustment. And interestingly enough, my mom and I had... started university at the same time, she's the first in her family. so she did initially go to university when she had finished high school, but her family couldn't afford for her to continue to do it. And there's also very limited opportunities for people to study that time, especially people of color because of apartheid. And so the challenges were being, you know, nobody else really having gone to university. My mom was studying her law. so it wasn't as if there was anything to discuss there. So that was very different. Also, I moved to a city that was 2,000 kilometers away from home. My parents didn't want to leave and it was a huge adjustment. From coming from a really strict household to suddenly having all of this freedom and then trying to pass. It was a really... was an interesting time and then also just being exposed to so many different things. The city where I'm from is very different. I'm from Cape Town and yeah, that was all just a huge adjustment. And then the academics itself, I... I went undiagnosed with ADHD for a very long time. I only got diagnosed in my 30s. I couldn't understand why some things came so much easier to other people. And retrospectively, how I didn't know that that was what was the case was actually insane. that was probably, there was many challenges, but I would say that that was probably the... the few that stood out in at least my first three years.

Ronit: Yeah, and on that note, did you have anyone that you could look up to during Bet School?

Azeemah: So there was one person and he was from our community and again in South Africa what was difficult is because of apartheid people of color weren't allowed to go and study at most tertiary institutions and very few were selected to go and do that. So at the time there was a very small amount of people that could study at a different faculty. where they could study veterinary science. So they were still taught by the same people and used the same practical facilities, but they were segregated. And one of the people that had actually graduated from that cohort, he was working at the PDSA. And since I was maybe starting high school, up until I was even studying, I would go and volunteer at the PDSA. I had him to look up to. And his name is Ayub and he does a lot of work for students. of color in South Africa. another person I looked up to immensely, she actually recently passed two years ago, was Dr. Thireshni Chetty. She was an equine specialist. And she started the Black Vets Association of South Africa, which is for all vets of color and... gave us a sense of belonging and allowed us to feel supported and have more access to those things. And also being an equine specialist and one of the most renowned in the country, huge for a woman of color, for an Indian woman. it was, she, I looked up to her a lot. so I had those two people, but other than that, there wasn't much. And I think that that leads to some of the other challenges was having gone to vet school I was maybe one of six people of color in my class. Depend, I think, yeah, and then of that if you think of South Africa it's a majority black country there were only about three or four black students in our class. So... So it was difficult in that sense, the isolation and retrospectively looking at it, the discrimination that you didn't even realize was there. But I wouldn't say that it was a huge factor at the time. I wasn't thinking about that. But also a lot of the time you just sort of brush it off because you're so used to things.

Varshini Mandradiar: I think on continuing from that about like the microaggression, like not realizing when it actually happens, why do you think representation and visibility and visible role models are important in Latin medicine now s looking back at it a few years later?

Azeemah: So you mentioned that you like wildlife and in South Africa it's a very white male dominated thing and it's very difficult even to try and get into if you are interested in that and those kinds of things need to change. even with farm practice, that I've noticed here in the UK is first,

Varshini Mandradiar: Mm-hmm.

Azeemah: you don't have that exposure and you're not feeling very welcome in a certain place. You... are not going to maybe want to do that. And that's why I was saying my role models, for example, was Thireshni and she was an equine specialist. I still am really not into horses, but for students that are, I mean, there is somebody that can do that because if you look at equine medicine or horses in general, that's usually a type of class. that we weren't exposed to, or at least I wasn't. And hard to get into or to feel like you do belong. So it really does matter. And then with what I teach, public health, mean, it's something that I definitely as a vet student myself would never have been interested in. And now I think what matters is me being there and teaching it. It's... if I can inspire a few students to want to do that because hey, she looks like me, she talks like I do, similar background. She's different, but she's doing something different as well. think I would hope that people would see that their opportunities are absolutely endless.

Ronit: In that incredible note. over the span of your career, have you seen any changes in terms of diversity and representation in the profession?

Azeemah: Yes, I definitely have and I think it comes to giving people those opportunities and believing in people. When I say believing, I don't mean blind belief, but it's that equity versus equality situation and affording people the opportunity to get to that same level. I was fortunate enough to get a government bursary to... have my studies paid for because my parents would not have been able to afford that and with that I was given a job in government. So I ended up in public health because that was the job that was available and it was government job which was amazing and again working for a department of agriculture that was historically white male Afrikaans dominated and that was their law. So coming into those spaces it It was really good and I was given opportunities that I took every opportunity and I ran with it. And as a woman, firstly, and then secondly, as a person of color and having neurodivergences, that imposter syndrome, so you often think like, am I here because of affirmative action or am I here because I deserve to be here? You know, whether it's true or not. and it isn't, but even if it is, you are there, so do something with it. And what I did when I was working for the Department of Agriculture was open doors to trade with certain countries that weren't there, collaboration with different organizations within government. So even though South Africa is a secular country, the Western Cape province where I was a state vet in... majority of their meat was slaughtered halal and so the halal trade was something that we had never really thought to look into and it was something that was then started by myself and my other team members to go on trade missions to invite countries from the Middle East over and start sort of talks about trading halal meat and that kind of thing. So using that and also using the the background that I had, you know, grew up with those kind of things and I understood those things. Bring your talents forward with whatever it is that you want to do.

Varshini Mandradiar: That is so inspiring, thank you. we also wanted to know what more you think needs to be done in terms of like representation and diversity, both in South Africa and here in the UK.

Azeemah: What I have noticed here and I think in the UK it's very different in the sense that over here, students of color and forgive me if I don't know what the correct terms are, but here you are the minority. Whereas in South Africa we're not. Is that... I don't want to say that you need to don't brush off the microaggressions, don't brush off the feeling of idleness. Embrace it, call it out and find somebody you trust that you can talk to about it. But most importantly, my message is to take up space. Take up space. Take up space, is

Varshini Mandradiar: Honestly love that. Yeah, because I think like even

Azeemah: your space. Yeah.

Varshini Mandradiar: think you're so right because so many students find it so they just get really scared to stand up for themselves firstly and also stand up for everyone else. Even to my three years in grad school I think that's one of the b biggest thing I've learned apart from like academically and yeah that's like super important. Take up space because it's your space I love.

Azeemah: Yeah, it's one of those, you know, there's more of a spotlight on you. And if you're a woman as well, and if you have neurodiversions, if you are minority, you can't put a foot wrong, or that's how you feel. I can't make the same mistakes that a white male peer could. At least that's how I feel and I think a lot of people resonate with that. Or if you are very confident and you do take up that space, you're arrogant or you're cocky, that could come across as well. But I would still encourage you to take up that space. It's be willing to learn. And also, I think we've all got this down with you can't take things. personally as well, but when it comes to doing the right thing and calling out injustices where you safely can, do it. But when comes to your career and who you are as a person, take up space, but it comes with time.

Ronit: such important advice and I hope everyone is able to take something away from that. moving on to your career, if you don't mind us asking, why did you decide to move to the UK? What was that transition like professionally and personally?

Azeemah: Well, I really, wasn't in a place where I felt my career was growing. I've always wanted to move abroad. I always wanted to travel and to see the world. And I felt that in the direction I want to even take my career into now is, you know, to study further. the UK was the place for me to do so. And when I moved over, two things that stood out was food is awful and the weather even worse. I actually still can't decide what's worse but I was then an OV in Scotland for a year and then took this job and ultimately what I want to do with public health and One Health as a whole is to really show students and the world as a whole that the importance that and the big role that vets do play when it comes to food safety, when it even comes to things like poverty. And for me, public health is the one field of veterinary science where you can actually change the world. You have the ability to do so. If I think about why I wanted to stay in public health is I had just started my career. as a vet working for the government and we had the Listeriosis outbreak which to date is still the largest outbreak that happened in the world with Listeriosis and over 200 people died and the people that died were the poor people in our country because the food that was contaminated was a cheaper source of protein and the only source of protein some people could afford and That was purely the fault of poor food safety hygiene things that were missed. had that been in place when it came to ready to eat meals of animal origin, that wouldn't have happened and it could have been prevented. And we had to wait for something like that to happen. I think that's when something, when it really clicked, that that is important. And if you actually empower younger people and... arm them with education, those kinds of things will change. And us as vets, we have a huge role to play in that because food, environment, mental health, all of that relates and I think that's why public health is so important to me because that ties it all together.

Varshini Mandradiar: What's one misconc conception that people have about repeated public health that you've heard the most?

Azeemah: I think a lot of people think, I certainly thought so, that it's just abattoir work. And it's abattoir work and it's a lot of legislation, which it is a lot of legislation, I'm not gonna lie there. those, yeah, abattoir work, paperwork, and it isn't that. I got to travel quite a lot in my career. I got to... meet with different counterparts of veterinary science in different countries. I went to pet food factories in the US. I got to do trade negotiations. I got to assist with writing policy that would change procedure to enhance trade, to enhance food safety. when it comes to one health and just furthering that kind of thing, it's so wide open and it's not just working in an abattoir. It is so much broader than that. And my career and what I have done in the past, I'm gonna give my age away 12 years now, has been so much broader than just working in an abattoir.

Ronit: Yeah. could you maybe give us an example of how veterinary public health impacts everyday life? especially about policy, because a lot of students want to get into it and don't really know how.

Azeemah: so for example, let's say you're going to be a small animal vet. So principles of certification is going to be a thing that you're going to have to do. Be it for export owners traveling with their pets, you are going to need to know how to complete certificates. That's a public health. thing right there and then if we stick with small animal practice there are many many issues with regard to zoonotic diseases and animal bites and those kind of things that will come in and if we staying on travel with puppy smuggling and people bringing in animals illegally things like rabies could become a reality so very very important over there is is public health over there. And if we think of small, mean, large animal, farm animal practice, again with zoonotic disease, but what ties in there is a lot of government work. And also if public health is not protected or if notifiable disease is not protected, there comes the mental health aspect of farmers. And it's a... It's something that is not in isolation to anything else that you're going to do. Any field of veterinary science, veterinary medicine that you're to go into is going to be affected by public health. The environment as well, that's not something to think of. mean, with what we're doing, with also antimicrobial resistance, or even just what we're consuming ourselves, what the animals are eating and what we're putting in the environment is going into our bodies, it is not something that can ever be considered in isolation. It is a holistic public one health situation in every aspect or wherever. however you're to be practicing.

Varshini Mandradiar: That is so true. on kind of that note again, what skills or experiences would you recommend students or new graduates especially should develop if they're interested in public health when they go into the working world?

Azeemah: I would and I can't say that I would know of any of my colleagues that would not be open to talking is to reach out, you know, drop us an email, drop me an email and ask people and Find out what is out there. You don't necessarily need to study further just yet. I am only starting to do that now. And that's been, you know, it's been a very long time. I never intended to become public health. I wasn't studying public health. And this year is when I'm starting to do that formally. And it is, if it is an interest that you are in. If it's something that you're interested in, look into it, talk to people, take whatever opportunities you can get and be open-minded. Your career is wide open. I wanted to do birds. That was my thing. Exotics, but specifically birds, which I did for a while. But my career just put me in a direction I never thought I'd be teaching either. And that turned out to be one of the most fulfilling things I've done. It's a lot of pressure as well, but teaching people, educating, I can only be, I can only create the changes if I'm willing to put the knowledge out there and to learn myself. So is to really never stop questioning things and to never stop learning. On that note, you know, with your career in public health, I've mentioned some of the things I've done, but when it comes to World Organization for Animal Health, WHOA, Food and Agriculture Organization, and even the WHO, United Nations organizations when it comes to public health, if as many children of immigrants, if you speak more than one language, you already are... at an advantage and they've got many public health jobs that pay really really well and there you get to really do the change. So it's wide open. Be open minded and speak to people.

Ronit: That's honestly really inspiring. looking back, is there any advice you wish someone had given you when you were a student?

Azeemah: I think the advice I would have liked to get was I don't know, there's a lot of things that I probably wish I would have got, if I think back now, even if I had gotten the advice I needed about this degree, about this course, about everything that comes with it, I would not have changed my decision to become a vet. And I think that that says it all. So what I actually would... say is I wish that I had had the support in place for me because I wouldn't have chosen differently and I think a lot of us that want to be vets that's what we want to do because let's be serious you've got the brain to be a vet you've got the brain to be super rich and do something else that's less dangerous and less time consuming and pays better but we chose this career path so you wouldn't have convinced me otherwise even if you told me what is gonna be placed in front of me and the challenges that I would get. So I think I'd rather say that I wish that there was more support in place. The type of support that I'm trying to cultivate now for students.

Varshini Mandradiar: That is amazing. And what keeps you motivated after all these years to study Bo and do Bo and teach Bo?

Azeemah: I wanted to say that trauma of having brown parents and once you didn't know it's not a bit partly. It's more finding other things that bring you joy now and I think the first part is actually recognizing you've got this even if you don't feel that way and working on that part of it, but then also your identity is not being a vet and it isn't only your career, it's having something outside of it. And for me, that's writing poetry and writing books in general. So finally, I'm a published poet, officially after years of trying submissions, things like

Varshini Mandradiar: Congratulations.

Azeemah: that. So I have joy, I find joy in writing and... I also now within my career have things that are fulfilling so with regard to studying further and also teaching and doing this podcast for example, doing focus groups with EDI at our vet school on how to help students of ethnic minorities and stuff like that is to find ways to make your job meaningful for you as well so that when someone like me with ADHD when I have to do all of that admin and write emails and just do the things I don't want to do there's a large part of my job that I do enjoy but also having something separate out of all of it. Also find yourself some non-vet friends. Very important. Non-vet friends.

Varshini Mandradiar: A lot of us forget that it's very important to have non vet friends and keep veterinary medicine away from being your only personality as well.

Azeemah: Yeah and do not describe the food you're eating as looking like pathology to your non-vet friends. Don't do it.

Varshini Mandradiar: What does it

Ronit: So yeah, looking into representation further, what advice would you give students from underrepresented backgrounds who are considering a career in veterinary medicine?

Azeemah: If it's something that you want to do, don't let anyone deter you. Funnily enough for me, wasn't everyone else that was more of a deterrent rather than my own community. So I found the challenge with doing veterinary medicine had come from my own community and it was real doctor or you know engineer accountant or whatever else you're supposed to be and also with my family being being Muslim they were you know not my parents though they were very very supportive and amazing but you know it was like dogs pigs and like get over yourself. That's not even how works. So you know, I find that a lot of it comes from that. And then there's also the comments that you will I still get today is things like that snarky comments from from your own community and I think that's still the challenge that I find but it's not a challenge anymore I you know I just don't care but but that comes with age as well you just you you stop caring what people think about you and you actually care what you think about yourself and that's what's most important.

Varshini Mandradiar: That's amazing because I think I resonated with literally more than 90% of everything you said until now. And on that note, again, like even I'm kind of like battling my diagnosis of ADHD now and about the imposter syndrome you said and the emails and basically thinking I want a life away from animal I mean away from humans and only animals as well is what kind of brought me here like principally. So I wanted to ask with your ADHD and everything, what are the some what are some benefits that you found and what are some disadvantages you realised that it gave you?

Azeemah: The disadvantage is always and sometimes still struggling with is really being exceptionally hard on myself. Why can't I just be like, why can't I just do that? I now need to do this. I need to do everything. And I've only at this age, I ended up getting an ADHD coach because even with meds, there's still... because sometimes my meds will just give me the energy to brush my teeth that day, have a shower and that's it. And it's learning to work with your brain and not against it. So it's not that you can't be like everyone else and it's not that you're not as good as everyone else. You do things differently, your brain works differently and instead of trying to force it into a mold... start working with your brain. So I will always still find the challenges doing admin, leaving things that I really don't want to do that needs to be done and then having all of that pressure. the superpowers with ADHD is if the building is on fire and there's a crisis, There's no one better that you want on your team. So when it comes to thinking fast, working in emergencies, really finding out a smarter and more effective way to get things done, being innovative, that is ADHD, creative, having a good sense of humor, I find, as well, helps. But it's... It's hard but radical self-acceptance is something when you do have neurodivergence that you have to come to terms with and I say that as someone that's still trying to do that but as soon as you you actually only care what you think of yourself and once you are happy with who you are it really doesn't matter that you're comparing you don't compare yourself with other people. So there is that and those challenges will always be there but Learn to work with your brain and not against it. Don't try and make it the way somebody else's does.

Varshini Mandradiar: That was super helpful. Thank you so much.

Ronit: Thank you so much. finally, if listeners are gonna take anything away from this conversation, what would you like it to be?

Azeemah: That, you know, I said the taking up space part, it is your place to be here and never ever be afraid to do that, to take up that space, to, you know, identify what you want and then take those opportunities and at the same time also be open-minded. to whatever comes your way. Don't immediately say no to something because you haven't tried it. Really try it out and then you can be like, I don't like that. And another thing when it comes to, I guess, life in general is that on the flip side, if something is not right, no is a complete sentence.

Ronit: Thank you so much. Before we wrap up, do you have a quick rapid fire round if that's okay with me?

Azeemah: Yeah?

Ronit: okay, so teaching or research?

Azeemah: teaching.

Varshini Mandradiar: Coffee or tea before a lecture?

Azeemah: coffee

Ronit: Favorite zoonic disease to teach.

Azeemah: Rabies.

Varshini Mandradiar: Favourite place you've ever visited?

Azeemah: Wooo! in Oman and Seoul, South Korea.

Varshini Mandradiar: Nice.

Ronit: One word your colleagues would use to describe you?

Azeemah: Good. wow, this it sounds terrible. It's this bird called a hardy dove from South Africa. It's terrible. They scream and I hate them usually, but maybe I'm homesick. Yeah.

Varshini Mandradiar: one quality every future vet should have.

Azeemah: adaptability.

Ronit: If you weren't a vet, who would you be? What would you be?

Azeemah: I would be... of I I'd be a writer, a poet.

Varshini Mandradiar: Finally a really controversial one. Dogs or cats? Okay.

Azeemah: Cats.

Varshini Mandradiar: That was a very quick answer. Thank you so much for coming on our podcast

Ronit: Couldn't have been dog.

Varshini Mandradiar: today.

Azeemah: Thank you so much for having me.

Ronit: Thank you for listening to the podcast.

Varshini Mandradiar: To learn more about animal aspirations and the work we do, visit animalaspirations.com

Ronit: And don't forget to follow the podcast so you don't miss future episodes.

Varshini Mandradiar: Have a day.

Ronit: Inspire.

Varshini Mandradiar: and dive on supply.

Ronit: Yeah.