Usha: Welcome back to the Animal Aspirations Podcast. Joy: A podcast sharing conversations with veterinary students, professionals and people working across animal related careers. Thank you so Mahesh for joining us today. For who hasn't come across your work before, could you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about what you do, please? Usha: Our goal is simple to educate, inspire, and diversify the veterinary profession. Joy: Today we're joined by mahesh to talk about his journey as a wildlife vet. Mahesh: Yeah, sure. Thanks for having me guys. I've actually been following what you guys have been doing for quite a while, actually. So I'm a big fan of the Animal Aspirations team. I think, is it Steph who founded Animal Aspirations? I ⁓ have been in touch with her ⁓ she went to go and work ⁓ the Gorilla Centre in Cameroon after me. I've kind of been, I feel like this has been coming. Usha: Let's get into it. You Joy: Thank you for to the podcast. Usha: To learn more about animal aspirations, head over to our website at animalaspirations.com. Joy: Thanks. And don't forget to follow the podcast so you don't miss out on future episodes. Educate, inspire, diversity. Usha: Educate, inspire, and diversify. ⁓ nice. Joy: There we go. Mahesh: But so a little bit about myself, I'm a vet from the UK, but more specifically, I'm a wildlife vet. So I've been doing wildlife work now of for about seven, eight years. I from the University of Bristol in 2017. Did a couple of years working as a mixed vet. And then since then, I've just been doing wildlife work kind of here, there and everywhere. Usha: That's insane. Awesome. What did your ⁓ I guess, to becoming a wildlife vet look like? You said it was a few years, but I guess what made you want to transition from doing mixed animal to wildlife? Mahesh: So wildlife work for me was the reason I got into vet school. I grew up in Birmingham, so I'm actually like a proper city boy. ⁓ have like pets or I didn't have access ⁓ wildlife. So when I was growing up, my of first kind of, the word, like glimpse into wildlife and conservation work was basically through TV and through books. ⁓ So as most people, Steve irwen David Attenborough, Deadly 60, that sort of stuff that I was was glued to as a kid. And I always thought, wow, man, this is so cool. And for me growing up, I I'm first generation British Indian, so my family, my dad comes from India and my mom comes from Kenya. So it's kind of the typical kind of immigrant story to the UK. So we grew up, you know, very, very working class family. I didn't have, we didn't have pets growing up. that's part of like Indian culture as well. You know, we don't have pets, although that's changed now. And so I didn't have access to anything. So ⁓ when I to watch these shows or read, I remember I had a big encyclopedia of all these wild animals and I used to read them and think, wow, this is like, feels like something from a movie or, you know, something not, you know, as a kid growing up, didn't. get to these things unless I went to the zoo. I was always fascinated by that ⁓ always felt, I want to work in this field. Okay, how I do that? And growing in an Indian family, obviously I was under a lot pressure from my parents ⁓ in a good where they were like, you know, have to do well at school. You have to do well with your sciences. You have to do well with everything like that. So thankfully I was quite at those things. Usha: Mm-hmm. Mahesh: Even if I didn't want to be. But then as I got older I realised, okay, maybe veterinary would be the way to kind of get into this. Because I didn't know how, okay, how do I? And growing up there were no role models, know, it was all, you know, it was all basically just white people that I would see on TV. There was nobody that looked like me. So I didn't know. was like, okay, how, is it even possible? I remember going to my careers counsellor at school in Birmingham. told him I wanted to be a vet. was maybe 15 at the time just doing my GCSEs and you know you're kind of, you're at that stage where you're doing GCSEs and you have to decide, okay, what am I gonna do for A levels and then if I choose these A levels then what is my career gonna be and you're 16 years old and you don't know anything about how you're to decide, okay, what do I wanna do with my life at 16? Nobody knows. And so I found that period quite stressful. I remember going to him being like, you know, I really wanna work with animals. How do I, I wanna get into vet school? And he turned around and he said, Look, no one from this area or from this school has ever applied for vet school in over 30 years. This is not really for you. It's not really for people like us. So, forget about it. And I was like, damn, I'm not, I don't want to forget about it. So yeah, I of, I remember, I think I wrote a personal statement for like dentistry, for optometry, for architecture, I explained all these different avenues, okay, what I'm going to do with my life. And then none of them felt right. Usha: Thank you. Mahesh: And then I remember I spoke to my brother, my brother was at university at the time and he said, you know, you've always wanted to work with animals, just stick with that. He was at university at the time and he was like, I see so many people who are at university and I'm sure you guys have seen this as well. People doing things and they don't want to do it. They're at university, they don't want to be there. And they just, they hate it and it's just a waste. So I okay. let me take the leap. So I actually took a gap year out to basically because I didn't have the right A levels. And at the time the tuition fees were going from £3,000 to £9,000. So again, for someone from my background, that felt like a very difficult decision to make because we just don't have those sort of, we didn't have that sort of money, but it just didn't feel right going for anything else. So I just decided to take the year out. All my friends went to university, they were having a time of their lives. Usha: . Mahesh: you know, being freshers and enjoying life. But I decided, no, you know what, this is the way I want to do it. So, yeah, and then I got into vet school, thankfully. Bristol, well, actually got into the waiting list. Everyone else rejected me. I think I applied for, I didn't even apply for RVC because I saw that, I don't know if you guys still have to, but at the time you had to do like an extra exam. What was it called? A B-mat? Something like that. Usha: Thank ⁓ Mahesh: I can't remember, but you basically had to do like an extra exam to get in. And at the time I was like, no, I've done enough. I've done enough. I don't need to be doing extra. And I applied for the Scottish universities and I applied for Nottingham. I didn't get into any of those. Then I thankfully got into Bristol. So it was always like working with wildlife was always kind of, okay, let me get into vet school and then I can just kind of go from there. And then when I was at vet school, wherever I could, I was just trying to... any sort of wildlife or zoo EMS or work experience wherever I could so I went to the wolf conservation trust in Redding if you guys ever want to go it's a cool place there was a random little rescue centre for wild like illegally traded animals near Birmingham Usha: Thank you. Mahesh: And then as kind of university went on, I did my elective in Zoo Medicine. And then I got my first kind of taste of wildlife medicine when I shadowed like a wildlife vet out in South Africa at the end of my, I think it was my third or third year. And that was when I was like, oh yeah, this is, I knew it what I wanted to do, but I'd not actually done anything. This was all in my head. And when I was, okay, yeah, this actually does match what I want to do. It's even better. So I always kind of was, that was always kind of in my thinking, okay, how do I, how do I make it happen? And again, I didn't have any, anybody I could talk to anybody I can look to, be like, okay, how do I do it? How do you do that? I was just kind of making it up as I went along, which I feel like a lot of people in this ⁓ do to be honest, but we'll get into that. Usha: Thank Mahesh: so then after university, the kind of resounding message that I got from most people who I'd met, vets were working in the wildlife space at the time, were like, make sure you do like a couple years of mixed practice first. Just because it gives you a very good grounding of your clinical skills and your clinical knowledge. You just become a good vet first. And shortly graduating, just, I didn't want to do any work. So I went backpacking around Southeast Asia. Usha: Hmm. Mahesh: six months classic, which I love you know I would highly recommend doing that. ⁓ the time I went to this elephant, this place the Elephant Nature Park in Thailand where they rescue elephants from the kind of captive trade so you know you get your riding elephants, your ⁓ circus logging all sort of stuff. So I'd actually there as a student earlier in the year. ⁓ Usha: So. Mahesh: and I got on really well with the founder and the people there and the vet team there. I, after my, kind of towards the tail end of my backpacking, I went there. I basically didn't really have any money left, but was just, thankfully they let me stay for free because they liked me. And whilst I was there, I helped rescue an elephant. So her name was Dala. She was a 23 year old. Usha: Okay. Mahesh: female elephant that had been used for riding a whole life. she, this was quite a formative, I think formative experience for me because it was my first time doing a rescue myself. And ⁓ remember thinking, wow, I'm going to go rescue an elephant. Like, this is insane. And so where the center is, in the north of Thailand, place called Chiang Mai. And she was, in a place called Surin. So right in the south, further south of Phuket. ⁓ It's about a, so we flew down there. I went to go and get her. I remember seeing her and she was huge elephant, like big, a big elephant for an Asian elephant. She was very big and she was skin and bone and she had completely lost all use of her right foreleg. Basically she had what had happened, something that they do in Asia is they do something called forced breeding. So what they'll do is they'll get when they want to breed elephants to, you know, continue the. industry they will often they chain up the females ⁓ they'll bring a male in to mate and obviously female is not very receptive ⁓ of ⁓ and what will happen is either the male will mate or if he doesn't and he rejects her he will just attack her and then the females chained up so this had happened to her and it had actually he'd actually dislocated her elbow after mating with her and they've carried on riding her until basically she couldn't Usha: Thanks. Mahesh: walk anymore and she would use her trunk as like a crutch. I you guys in video but I'll it to you later. So she would use it as almost like a ⁓ crutch and was this is the first time I've seen kind of the ⁓ effect of trauma on animals. I elephants are like, so I'm a Hindu myself so working with elephants and ⁓ you There's a lot of religious significance and spiritual significance for me personally and I'd always felt a very close relationship to Lord Ganesh. So for me I was like, this is a big deal. And the first time I seen her, she was like, the best way can describe it, she looked like a zombie and she just was like, was nobody, she was there but there was nobody there. She was not receptive to anything. And I remember being like, wow, this is rough. So we loaded her onto, so the way we would transport her, we basically, it's basically like almost like a reformed lorry. You kind of, the back of the lorry, you have where the elephant will go. And then right next to the elephant, there's like a little, we'd make like a little wooden platform where we would sit, have that eye level to her. And then we'd sit with her for the whole journey and feed her, clean out her poop, then take stops, make sure she's drinking okay. And so this journey took about 32 hours. Joy: Wow. Mahesh: So it's 32 hours in this truck with this elephant, there's me and two, three other people. And we're riding through the night and, you know, for me, this is a huge deal. So I'm like talking to her, I'm stroking to her. And just like enamored by this creature. she was not receptive to anybody, but towards the end, what she would do, she would, if I stroking her, she would like start to nudge me. Usha: Thank Mahesh: And then by the end of it, where I would sit next to her head, she would put her trunk on my lap. And I was like, oh my god, this is amazing. And so by the time we got to the center, usually they have a whole team of like mahouts. So mahout, for people who don't know, is basically the name for like the elephant carer. Traditionally, it's the guy with the hook who trains this elephant. And we use the hook to remind the elephant who's in charge. But this place, the mahouts obviously don't use. Usha: Thanks. Mahesh: don't use those things, but you still need, because these animals have been captive their whole life, you can't just release them into the wild because they're now captive animals. So they will have someone, elephant will have someone assigned to them to basically be their carer. And typically it's like the guys, because they've, ⁓ they know they're doing, they've been doing it for years, or they usually some people coming in from Burma, because Burma has a big population of families from the jungle that would be doing that. when I got back, they actually asked me to become her Mahoot because basically she had made a connection with me. Which in my head I was like, wow, this is like a dream come true. Okay, this is my job now. I'm just going to be an elephant Mahoot, that's it. In her day, every day. So for like ⁓ three, four that was my job. I basically just with her and I just looked after her and it was. Usha: Okay. Mahesh: there was a bit of a running joke that we were the new couple in town because we take food from anybody else. She wouldn't take, she would look at anybody else. But if I was there, she would eat. And it's a big thing because obviously with your smaller animals, you can force them to eat if you need to. But with an animal like an elephant, you can't. They don't want to eat. They don't want to eat. And that's also where I learned how kind of mental trauma is to overcome in these animals. especially these more... Usha: Hahaha Mahesh: like intelligent species like elephants or monkeys, it's tricky get them over that, especially when it's humans who have done everything to them. And now it's humans that have to care for them. So it was big for me to be able to kind of make that breakthrough. this was my first time, I was just learning on the job. So they kind of asked me, okay, you if you want, you can just stay here. And I think at that point I had been... out of university for about six months and I basically ran out of money but I mean not that had to spend any money there I was just kind of all I do is I sleep there eat there and I just sit with this elephant all day every day which was I could do that that's fine but I had to make the difficult decision where I was like okay you know what I think I do have to go home because if I don't go home and start working as a vet now everything I've learned for five years is gone because I'm very much kind of person if I'm not Usha: . Mahesh: actively what I've learned, then I will forget it because yes, I should be reading books and textbooks and this is probably a bad example, but I don't do those things. I'm more someone who just kind of has to learn through kind of physically doing things with my hand. And my I'd kind of like, you know, I'd hate to be in a position where something happens to her or to another animal. And I'm supposed to be the vet here, but I don't know. ⁓ I don't what I'm doing. I've never done a surgery. I've never done anything. So. So I made the difficult decision to go home, which was the right decision, but it was difficult because ⁓ months late, I found out a few months later actually that, I it's not because of me, so I don't want to make it like, ⁓ yeah, it's because of me. But she a lot of mental trauma and she had a lot of things wrong with her. But she basically of mentally started to deteriorate a few months after I left and then she died actually. And that was like, that was a tough one, but. Usha: Mm. Mahesh: was a big lesson for me in terms of, ⁓ know, what this, ⁓ this world is. ⁓ I'd always thought, you know, I want to work with like free range wildlife. This is the kind of stuff I want to do because it's the exciting stuff. know, it's the stuff that you see, you know, on TV or on Instagram chasing around after a rhino and doing all this cool stuff, which is cool. But I think that was my first proper foray into like rehab, rehab and rescue work. Usha: Mm. Yeah. Mahesh: and that kind of of getting this animal that has suffered so much. And kind of as a vet, you get to do a lot as well. So it's quite challenging medically. But the free range wildlife stuff's really cool, but it's not a lot of like complicated wildlife work, that makes sense. ⁓ You'll knock an animal and you'll maybe move the animal. You might do like a ⁓ wound care maybe an implant or something like that, but you're not going to be doing like any... Usha: Thank Mahesh: kind of extensive medical work up or anything like that. Whereas with wildlife rescue and wildlife rehab, you kind of, you have to use your brain a bit more. You have to problem solve a bit more. me personally anyway. So I think that's where I started to be like, you know, I quite like this sort of thing. Like, I can get an animal and then you can make a connection with an animal and then you can actually see that animal get better. And it's quite a rewarding thing, but it can be quite mentally as well. Cause it takes, it takes a lot. Usha: Right. Mahesh: And then when an animal passes away and you're very close to that animal, it's not easy. But that's part of the job. So yeah, after that I went back and then I went to a mixed practice up in Lincolnshire. So that was a very different experience. Didn't enjoy that very much because that was kind of your typical one where you take a job at a place where you basically have no support and you're just doing everything by yourself. Usha: in Mahesh: You're suddenly doing colic calls all by yourself and nobody's there to help you and you're like, I don't know what I'm doing. So, but it was good because I'm also the of person I need to be. I personally like being thrown in the deep end and I'm actually quite glad I had that job because it kind of taught me what is not good for a job or a practice. Not everybody would like that, but taught me some valuable lessons. Then I moved to a small practice in Wales where I was a mixed fit and that was much better. Usha: Mm. Mahesh: I learnt a lot. I did mixed practice for about 18 months. And then from there, ⁓ when I kind of ⁓ my transition into like, okay, it's time to do wildlife work now, I'm ready. So I did an internship in South Africa with a wildlife vet for a few months. So that was just kind of like your proper wildlife work. And at the time of my life there, I'd so much kind of doing all sorts of like rhino dehorning and working Buffalo, lions, giraffes, like giraffe work. If you guys ever get a chance, giraffe capture is probably like the most fun thing you'll ever do. Cause you're just literally chasing a giraffe down and trying to, if you're part of the rope, if anyone asks you, if you want to be part of rope team, don't tell your parents, but give it a go. You'll get dragged, but it's fun. It's a lot of So I did that for a few months and then after that I, Joy: Okay. Mahesh: That's when I went, okay, I've done my internship. Okay, I'm ready. So then I started working in small animal locum. So I know we show you don't like small animal work, but I respect it. But small being a locum does allow me to kind of has allowed me the flexibility to probably going into what maybe when we talk about finances and stuff like that, that has allowed me to kind of do all the things I do because Usha: love small animals, I just need variety. Mm-hmm. Mahesh: There's a lot of small animal locum work. So it just gives you that flexibility really. Which is also another positive of me doing my mixed practice work for a couple of years first, because now I could locum. so then I started locum-ing in London and in Birmingham. And COVID hit. at the time all work was And ⁓ then whilst was home in quarantine, Usha: Mm. Mahesh: I saw a Facebook advert for the Cheetah Conservation Fund. had a job going for, they wanted a resident vet for their centre in Somaliland. So now it is, this was maybe 2000, this was 2020. So I think it had only just started. So they were very much in their infancy and it seemed like a crazy thing to do at the time. I mean, now the Somaliland Centre is... is huge and it has a lot, it's got a very good reputation. They've got a whole hospital and it looks amazing. A lot of international staff work there so it's not as scary to go there. But at the time when I went there, there was three people working there. No one had ever talked about it before. And I would suddenly turn around to my mom and be like, okay, I'm going to move to some island. I'll see you in six months. And she was like, what the... Can I swear? Basically, what are you talking about? I don't know. I don't want to be messing things up for you. she was like, what are you talking about? And obviously everybody I told her was like, you're crazy. You're going to get kidnapped by pirates. you're going to get shot. There's terrorists there. It's crazy. I was like, yeah, it's all right. Usha: I'm like, I don't even know, go for it. We'll bleep it if we need to. you Mahesh: I spoke to the manager there, this British guy, he was like, yeah, it's fine. So I was like, okay, cool, it's fine. So I it a go, you know? And I was stuck at home doing nothing at the time. So it just felt like, okay, let's give it a go. And that was like my first proper job job where, okay, I'm the one who's making decisions. So I went there and at the time when I went in there, I think we had like 40 cheetah cubs that were rescued. So they rescue cheetah cubs that get trafficked from. Usha: you Mm. Mahesh: mostly from Eastern Africa and then they would get taken to the Middle East to be sold as pets. Somalia is basically the last port of, kind ⁓ the last point before they travel across the Gulf. So usually they would go through Somalia, go across the Gulf into the Middle East. CCF had identified, okay, this is the area we can kind of seize a lot of cubs and rescue So at the time there was about 40 cubs and I remember going there on my first day ⁓ and The current vet, she was leaving the next day. So she gave me like probably the quickest handover ever where she was like, hey, this is this cut. This is this cheat. This is this cheat. This cheat has got this. This cheat has got that. This cheat has got this. And I was like, they all the same to me. ⁓ do you know who's who? And she's this one needs this. This one needs this. And the cheaters are quite actually quite fragile. Especially when get them from that ⁓ scenario where ⁓ stolen from moms. super young, fed terrible diets, kept in terrible conditions. So they've got a lot of things going on with them. I remember going into my room, which was her room previously. And then there was five cubs in there, all about four weeks old. And she was like, Hey, these are your cubs. So now you're going to raise them. and never done anything like that before. And these little cheetah cubs, little scrawny cubs, just looking at me like, this is where's the food? I pooped on the floor, pick it up. I was like, ⁓ my God. Usha: Thank Mahesh: I remember just going to bed that night and I'm being like, ⁓ what have I done? This is like, and I didn't know what I really talk to to be like, do this, do that. was like, but again, it was cool. I loved it, I worked there. that was really like a of fire in terms of wildlife work. By the end we had like, I think in my first month we rescued another 20 cubs. It was crazy. I didn't take a day off for like four or five months. It was just nonstop, but it was amazing. I loved it and I really good time there. And then since then, that's just kind of kicked on my career. So I've worked all over the place since then. that, I went back to the Elephant Nature Park and actually worked as one of their vets. ⁓ that was a nice full circle moment, being like kind of ⁓ coming back with some ⁓ to show for it and some actual experience. And then I've also worked in Bolivia in the Amazon rainforest where I was vet for a rescue center there. And then I worked in Cameroon at a primate rescue center. we had gorillas and chimpanzees and all sorts of stuff. And then ⁓ since I've kind of been here then everywhere. But yeah, that's of a very quick, quick run through of my journey. Usha: That's awesome. Joy: So I think. Mahesh: Sorry, can just, yeah, yeah, yeah. Usha: No, no, no. Joy: No, we love them. Thinking back to the time at vet school, do you think it prepared you enough for a career in wildlife medicine? Mahesh: I mean don't know what it's like for you guys now but obviously we didn't get taught anything about wildlife or zoo. You get taught about kind of exotics and exotic pets which is fair enough you know most people are not not going to go into wildlife work. In terms of preparing me I mean my zoo medicine elective was helpful. I mean don't know how much it really helps but I think a lot of what you learn I think what probably what maybe what surprised me the most actually when I started working in wildlife is how much of it is all very transferable like everything I did in small animal work like dogs and cats is that working with cheetahs is basically the same. When I had my interview for the CTCF Usha: Mm. Mahesh: She was more interested in my work with dogs and cats than she was with my work anywhere else because that's more relevant. When I'm working with elephants, a lot of the emergency stuff that I to do with horses was quite relevant to elephants because they get a lot of colic issues, especially a lot of ⁓ the that they rescue because they're elephants have a lot of dental issues so they don't chew their food properly. They get a lot of impacts from colics. And then working you know, all your big hoof stock in Africa, what you learn, what you do at mixed practice, it's all very transferable. So I think that's probably what most helpful, but in terms of what prepares you, don't know, ⁓ quite different. Usha: And you were saying that you had to find a lot of these opportunities on your own, but I guess how did you manage that? Is it kind of just like research and send out emails? Calling, like stuff like that? Mahesh: Yeah, think it's a lot better now. But the time, this was like 10 years ago, was a lot of just Googling a wildlife center or wildlife rescue center. I mean, the elephant place I actually found because the vet had like an EMS database and it was actually on there. So I actually just emailed them. The wildlife vet I first shadowed Sorry, my dog's just, I don't know what he's doing, he's just rolling around. distracted me. The vet I worked with, well I shadowed when I was in my third year, that was actually a friend of mine at vet who knew someone in South Africa and he just reached out to me. When I did internship, that was literally just, again, through a friend who just told me, this place does an internship. Usha: Nice. Mahesh: The CCF, I literally just joined this group. they sometimes will post things and I just saw that was posted on Facebook. So I had quite a few of my other jobs like in Cameroon or Bolivia was also just there was a post on Facebook to be honest that was the way I found them at the time where I just literally would just Google places and just see what I could find. Now it's a lot different because I've been doing it for quite a while so I've met quite a lot of people so usually people will reach out to me or I'll hear about something through someone. Usha: Mm-hmm. Mahesh: Because it's actually quite a small field and the longer you work here and the longer you kind of, the more you meet people, things just kind of will naturally just present themselves. I think that's probably the thing that makes it so unpredictable. You just don't really know. Like, for example, right now I'm part of a group called the Dental Coalition for Conservation. So they're this group of dentists from the US who go around and do... Wildlife Dentistry and I've joined that group and the way I found out about them is posted like a reel on my Instagram of me in Cameroon and the just messaged me being like, can we come there? And that was it. I would have found them just kind of looking for a job advert, but that's just kind of how it happened. And then we just got to know each other and that was it. That's why always my best advice to anyone who wants to into wildlife work is just get yourself out there. Just go do something, matter what it is. Even if you don't think that that's where you want to be long term, it doesn't matter. Just do some sort of wildlife work where you meet people in the industry and then they'll be like, I know this person, I know this thing that's going on. And one, you build up your experience, but two, you just, your network grows and it's quite, ⁓ a very small field. once you, Usha: Mm. Mahesh: start working with people and people know you, they'll be like, okay, here's this, here's this, here's this. There's a few Facebook groups and stuff like that as well, but that's kind of, how I found it. It was just very random, but very organic. Usha: Mm. Joy: Can you tell us more about position as ⁓ board member in the Dental Coalition conservation-like world, please? Mahesh: Yeah, so that's actually quite new so that only happened in them you happen to like at the start this year, so and they don't the DCC so we're basically a group of it's founded by a guy called them Dr. Charles he's a he's a an endodontist human endodontist from the US and He previously with an organization Called let me see if I can it right Peter and Emily's veterinary dental society, I think. can't remember, but they basically were a group of human dentists that over the last like 20, 30 years founded by a guy called Peter who was also a human dentist who basically he started the whole movement of wildlife animal dentistry. So he was just a dentist who had interest in wildlife work in the US. And obviously in the US, a lot of people have, you know, like they have centers or they maybe have pets that have tigers in their backyard or. random animals because I mean that's just it goes. mean Charlie he's based in Texas so as you can imagine in Texas or ⁓ think Peter's he a lot of work in Florida for example and you know there's a lot of like wildlife pets and stuff like that out there. So he the level of dentistry knowledge and expertise that they would have compared to what we would have as vets is it's on another level so and ultimately teeth are teeth. Different shapes, different sizes, but they're still teeth. So they had been doing that for 20, 30 years. So they've kind of been doing this wildlife dentistry work for a long time. And over this last year, Charles, basically started his own organization called the DCC alongside a few other people, namely a guy called Baron, who's a veterinary dentist. And he's been a veterinary dentist for about 20 years. So they've started this organization and the whole premise is to provide kind of expert dental care for wildlife. So a non-profit. So we basically just offer kind of free ⁓ dental services. we'll go to these sort of rescue centers where they may feel that their animals need like ⁓ dental checks dental work and we'll go there and do that. And so yeah, I found out about it when ⁓ Usha: So. Mahesh: Charlie sent me a DM on Instagram. So it's all going down in the DMs. And he basically wanted, he he messaged me because he wanted to find out about their services to ⁓ center that I was working at in Cameroon. And he basically had sent messages to loads of people, to loads of centers on Instagram, being like, you know, this is who I am, these are the services I offer, kind of come. Usha: You Mahesh: And whilst I was talking to him on the phone, I basically just was like, I would love to, regardless of what happens in Cameroon, I would love to get involved. I would love to, if you're doing anything, I would like to just tag along and learn. And his whole kind of ethos is that he really wants to teach. Which is quite refreshing because sometimes in this industry, there's a lot of egos thrashing around and not everybody is ⁓ and very... Usha: Thank Mahesh: forthcoming with the knowledge and expertise that they have. A lot of people want to keep it to themselves. So speaking to him, it was really nice because he just was a very nice and genuine person. he actually invited me to go to Takagama, a chimpanzee ⁓ centre in Sierra Leone. This was back in December. And we did a bunch of health checks on their chimps over there. And then from there, he asked me to join their board. And then, ⁓ we just a couple of weeks ago, were in Zambia. we can get chimpanzee sanctuary there. And so yeah, we just basically will go to places do free of charge dental checks essentially. So yeah, it's a of fun. We've got a lot of things booked up already this year. yeah, it's open to anybody who wants to come, but it's kind of like usually that one or two spots will open up and you just apply. you don't have to kind of like a fee, you just have to get yourself there. Usha: Mm-hmm. Mahesh: But it's very cool because dentistry at the moment is just in wildlife but in small animals as well. It's a field that feel like is growing quite quickly. I don't know about what it's like currently for you guys at vet school but when I was at vet school we basically had like one day of dentistry and that was taught to us like week before our finals so nobody had any interest in learning about dentistry at the time and then they had like a two-hour practical where you practice extractions and that was your dentistry. That was it. And you know, there's so much I think that we as vets kind of miss or maybe under appreciate when it comes to dental work. And we're just kind of, yeah, let's just take it out when I say it, clean it and take it out. But there's kind of a little bit more to dentistry, especially if you talk to a dentist. So I've found it's quite cool because for me, I'm learning a lot. Usha: Yeah. Yeah, we had the dental day of doom because it was like literally seven dental lectures shoved in one day. Mahesh: Yes. Yeah. And then everyone found out that they weren't going to, for us, we had a similar thing and then everyone found out that it was only going to be like in 10 % of the exams. Everyone was like, you know what, there's so much information I was taking, I will just put dentistry to the side because I don't have enough brain capacity to also add those, that booklet. Yeah, I didn't, I'll be honest, I didn't, I didn't look at my dental lectures. Usha: Yeah. Mm. Mahesh: But it's quite funny now because now I'm on the board of a dental organisation. Again, you don't know where life's going to take you. Usha: Yeah. I guess kind of transitioning into how, I guess what treatment looks like for wildlife animals, what is your ⁓ goal when are treating them? Mahesh: So it depends really where you're working. So if you're at a centre where got couple of ways, some places will rescue, rehabilitate and then they'll keep the animal. So then your ⁓ strategy be a little bit different. And then you have places where it's rescue, rehab and then release the animal. Obviously, ideally every place would release ⁓ the For some it's just not possible. So for example, with the cheetah centre, there is no way to safely release their cheetahs because just no safe environment to safely release them and know, okay, this animal is going to be okay. Luckily, they now have a big, big complex where they've got these huge kind enclosures where these animals have a lot of space. At the time when I was there, we were just in a little city, so we just had these small enclosures, so they didn't really get to run around or anything. for example, in Cameroon ⁓ would rescue, have these gorillas that are rescued, but they just, again, is nowhere either this for political reasons or for, just in terms of habitual reasons where there's just not a suitable place to, especially if you're releasing like a big animal, like a gorilla or a chimpanzee, you need to know that, okay, is this area that I'm going to release this animal into? Does it have pre-existing? Does it have kind of ⁓ resident or gorillas already? Cause you can't just you know, just pop a silverback into the jungle and be like, okay, cool, do your thing. know, the other guerrillas are not going to exactly accept that. And then there's obviously political decisions you have to think about as well, because it's not just up to you personally. ⁓ You the government have to okay it. They have to okay it. And sometimes ⁓ it be difficult dealing with That's probably one of the things that I think surprised me the most is... how political sometimes it can get working at these places. The Amazon Rainforest place in Bolivia, that was amazing because actually every single primate we have and our ocelots and our margays we've managed to successfully release. our jaguar we couldn't because it just wasn't anywhere suitable to release them. So if it's like just a case of rescue and rehab, then you'll be a lot more kind of free contact with these animals, especially if you're getting them from young because they can be habituated to you. And you're not doing it so that can ⁓ free contact with a or with an elephant. But in terms providing medical treatment, just makes it easier. Because then there's more you can do if this animal is not, you don't have to sedate this animal every time. have to do something to it. Sometimes it's not possible. like with our gorillas, even though we can't release them, we can't just go inside with a gorilla because obviously it's not safe. But usually what it would be kind of like terms of let's say a case that comes in. So usually you get very short notice. So typically like a government official will contact you and be like, okay, I've got this animal. I'm coming now and be prepared. you really know what the story is. They'd usually give you minimal information, but they were like, I have this many animals. This is what I got. And sometimes you don't even know if the animal, we once got told that we got a cheetah coming down and. They brought it to us and look, we've got a little cheetah cub and actually it was a leopard cub. And I had to look at him be like, this is not a cheetah, this is a leopard. You have given me something completely different here. And they just didn't know. So you can't rely really a lot on, it's not really going to be much in terms of you've got a history. You can't really be like, okay, what has this animal been fed? What has this animal had? Sometimes you might get information, sometimes you might not. Typically most of these animals are fed terrible diets or are not fed at all. Usha: Okay. Mahesh: Often they're, most of time they're malnourished. Most of the time they've got some sort of ectoparasite load covered in fleas, covered in ticks, or they might have a lot of like fly maggots on them, maybe some nasty wounds. Sometimes maybe we've had animals where they've, we had a cheetah once that had his tail chopped off. Don't know why it was just chopped off. We had a cheetah once where his nose was kind of chopped off as well. Again. I can't tell you why it happened, but just what it was. So then you just kind of treat what needs to be treated immediately. So kind of the easiest stuff to treat would be obviously wounds. Start with your wound care. You basically do like an emergency triage. If you have to sedate the animal, you'll sedate the animal. And then ⁓ you would put them into some sort of like quarantine facility and then monitor over weeks, months, depending on how long. your quarantine is, kind of varies with species then treating them for what needs to be treated. And then if it's a baby animal trying to get them transitioned onto formula milk, typically you won't give kind of formula milk straight away because most of time they'll reject it and then it will just cause you all sorts of issues. So usually just kind of electrolyte solution or some, some sort of like plain solution just to kind of almost like refresh their GI system before you start to slowly introduce. formula milk and then often after about a week, two weeks, I used to see this a lot with a lot of species. That's when the diarrhea comes in. That's when the vomiting comes in and you kind of have to ride that storm. Just do supportive care and then hope most animals will make it through. Obviously species dependent, but I'm just kind of giving you kind of like a blanket through. And then once you've kind of got that animal used to your milk formula, then you can kind of start building it up. eventually start winning it off and then you can start looking at, how can I introduce this animal to the group or where can I put this animal safely? And then if it's a case of, okay, now I've got this animal healthy, okay, now I need to find a group where it can either stay or I can now start to think about a plan, okay, how am going to release this animal? And then that's when you start to introduce less and less human contact, if you can, or if you have the space or the facilities to do that. Because you kind of, once you've got the animal healthy, then you kind of, you hit a little bit on the fork in the road either, okay, now I need to think about how am going to make this animal happy by introducing it to a group or how am I going to this animal ready to be released back into the wild. Joy: How different is your decision making when treating like wildlife animals compared to domestic animals? Mahesh: ⁓ Obviously it's very different in terms of when you're working with domestic animals, you have all the facilities, you have all the help, you have all the kind drugs and ⁓ probably big thing is just kind of the equipment that you have and everything you have at your disposal. That's one thing that when I first started doing it and then I'd come back to the UK to work in general practice, I was like, wow, we have so many things. Like we have nurses that know everything. Usha: So. Mahesh: and that can help you do everything. We have like a sterile room, which is like, ⁓ my God, what is that? We have working lights, we have drugs that are in date. I can choose it. And if I don't have a drug, I can order it in for tomorrow. Or I have internet. It's like, wow, this is, I'm spoiled here when I'm in the UK. And then obviously just, you just have so much more at your disposal and you can actually like work up a case from start to finish and you can provide the best possible care. Obviously financial. Usha: Thank you. Mahesh: Finance is dependent, but compared to when you're working abroad at some of these places, you probably don't have the drugs that you want or you maybe do. Or if you do have the drugs, they're probably expired and you have limited amount. Actually being able to reliably give an animal a course of a medication can be very difficult. can't force a gorilla to take tablets every day. You have to get very creative about how you give this animal. food so sometimes it would be like giving them a sandwich with a load of honey on there and then trying to hide the smallest tablet and then the gorilla will just eat the honey and then throw the tablet back at you and you're like my god just eat the ⁓ ⁓ an elephant like ⁓ it was astonished me how clever they are like ⁓ you would give an elephant the tiniest little tablet in a huge you'll them a whole bunch of bananas and you just hide one tablet maybe one or two tablets into like a few of them, but I can just eat the whole thing. And the elephant will smell it and either just throw it straight on the floor or eat everything and then spit out the tablets. So actually being able to give your medication to the animal, because you obviously you can inject them, but let's say you have to give a course of antibiotics or a course of drugs, being doing that every day. And then you have to start thinking about, I can do it today, can do it tomorrow. But on day three, this animal is either going to turn around and just, you know, throw me away or. Usha: you Yes. Mahesh: I'm just not going to be able to give it. So then you have to start thinking about, what can I give that I know I can give for the course of the treatment? And then in terms of like facilities again, so like, you know, do I have an x-ray machine or do I have an ultrasound machine? I use that in my diagnostics? Do I have a lab that I can reliably send my blood to, you know, run any tests that I want to run? So I think with wildlife work you have to be a lot more creative, which is quite fun, but also quite frustrating as well. And just not, obviously not as much literature in terms of, okay, this is what a normal blood panel will look like, or for this case, this is what this might look like. So it can get trickier. So I think with wildlife stuff, it's a lot more kind of, you get a lot more creative. Obviously, like if you're working in a zoo, you have a lot more facilities at your disposal you have a lot more expertise at your disposal as well. know, some of these zoo vets have been doing this for so much longer than I have. But when you're in the field and you're in like a rescue centre where you're by yourself and you don't have these people to talk to to learn from and to ask for advice or just to kind of discuss a case with, then it can a bit trickier. So whereas in kind of animal work, you kind of have just a wealth of... facilities, drugs, knowledge, and previous. Pretty much every case that, cases that you'll ever encounter in small animal medicine, another vet has done it, or the other vet in the building has already done it. So you can talk to them and be like, okay, what do you think? Whereas wildlife medicine, you just don't really know ⁓ what gonna get. But that's makes it exciting as well. That's what makes it fun. Usha: Thank I was actually curious because you, right, as a wildlife vet you have limited information to draw from, so do you get to participate in like the creation of that information? Do you do any research alongside your vet work? Mahesh: lot people do. I haven't, done a little bit of research like, yeah, there's a huge scope for research. I think that's what's quite cool is with wildlife work, there's actually a lot that has not been done yet. And I think that's quite exciting. So ⁓ there's a of scope for research. So for example, when I was working at CCF, barely anyone had been to Smileyland to do work with the cheetahs there. So there's so much that we don't know. ⁓ so it is quite, ⁓ there's quite a, there's quite a lot of untapped potential and untapped, and knowledge that I think ⁓ there. And that's one thing that I would say to a lot of people who want to get into it is if you have any sort of research inkling re inkling, like really, I say chase that because you could potentially get into a subject or a, you know, into a field where there's actually not a lot of research that has been done. So you could be somebody who has found something that no one else has found. I've never been massively research minded myself to be honest. I prefer to just kind of, I like on the ground work. Although I am now starting to appreciate that stuff a lot more and I'm trying to, trying to do more. But yeah, I would definitely encourage, encourage people to do that, especially if you're looking to get into it. Cause I think that's where you can make yourself stand out. Where if you find a research project that you're really... Usha: Mm. Mahesh: about I think you can really kind of stand out there and that's you could probably get a lot of work as well. Joy: You also mentioned you have a social media page. What motivated you to start documenting your journey? Mahesh: I just it was fun to be honest. ⁓ I mean, I've always been on social media and I quite like, mean, like I said, when I got, when I was a kid, the way I got into it was through TV. So I understand the power of kind of media and what that can do. And I'm also very aware that, you know, as a, as a brown guy from Birmingham, there's not many, many of us ⁓ doing work ⁓ or work at all. So I, I do feel Usha: . Mahesh: I feel quite passionate about kind of representation as well. So being able to show people, look, you know, I grew up in Birmingham, went to school in Hansworth, like, and I'm doing wildlife at work and nobody said I could do it. And everybody told me I couldn't do it, but I'm doing it. So, know, ⁓ I am, have a look at what I'm doing. So quite like that aspect of it. And it's cool because a lot of the opportunities ⁓ and jobs ended up getting ⁓ is through I've met on social media. It's actually really good in terms of making connections. you never really know who's watching. And I quite ⁓ fun to be honest. Like just share what's going on ⁓ ⁓ what comes from it. Usha: Nice. Is that how, ⁓ like, figs reached out to you and stuff too? ⁓ Mahesh: Yeah, that's how I got sponsored by Figs. So they saw some of the work I was doing and a friend of mine me to them. yeah, that the whole Figs thing has kind of taken a life of its own. I I to LA and I did a talk ⁓ in of their whole company, which was just a bit of a kind of very surreal moment because I was like, what am I doing? did a talk and then Gwyneth Paltrow came on after me and I was like, what is going on in my life right now? Not she knew who I was, but she said hello and that was it. But still, it was quite cool. You never really know where life's going to take you. And yeah, mean, don't have a huge following or anything like that, but you just never really know who's watching. You never really know who's looking at your stuff. The DCC one a great example because that's just something my fiance is always me to post more. And I was like, okay, I'll post. And then I get a message from him the day after and now I'm on the board of the DCC. So you never really know who's watching. It was quite fun. Usha: Thanks. Nice. transitioning to kind of the wildlife conservation aspect, what does it mean to work to conserve a species, ⁓ both as like a slash just like what's involved with that? Mahesh: This has so much involved. mean, so for me personally what it means, I think ⁓ I probably of things more on kind of like a personal level where I always feel that us as human beings kind of first off, it's our duty to look after the planet and it's our duty to look after these species. And a lot, especially when you're working with in terms of illegal wildlife trade and the illegal pet trade and all this human exploitation, you see what these animals go through. And honestly, some of the things that you see, it's not easy. Obviously when you see pictures on my Instagram, it looks so much fun. Some of the stories that you see and some of these animals that you see is, it's tough. It's a tough pill to swallow. So when you're seeing kind of so much destruction and suffering and there's so much going on in the world, it's like, Okay, what can I do on small level just to kind of have a positive impact and kind of on a bigger level, you know, if you're ⁓ to, let's say, save the cheetah, then ⁓ also working to help save all the other animals that are kind of beneath it in the kind in the hierarchy, in the food chain. So you're not just helping one species, we're helping a whole bunch. You know, that's when we talk about these umbrella species, for example. Everybody talks about let's save the rhino and obviously that's fantastic but there's a lot of other animals that need help but by saving the rhino you're saving all these spaces that these rhinos live in and ultimately you know you can see you can just see kind of when you look around what the impact is of all this habitat destruction and what we're doing to our oceans and Yeah, there's a lot going on and you can't really deny that the impact us as human beings are having on the planet is huge. as a vet personally, well, one, as a vet, I like to think that we all just like to animals and make animals better. And it can feel quite frustrating when you're working in small animal practices because sometimes you might feel like, you know, I'm not really feeling fulfilled. And I know a lot of my colleagues or people that I know in the industry. you know, in terms of job satisfaction and terms of mental health issues, ⁓ a big problem in the vet profession because we just don't, lot of people just don't feel fulfilled or they don't feel valued they don't feel that they're, you know, people actually appreciate. mean, there's members of the public always think you're just, you know, ⁓ us vets are out to take everybody's money, ⁓ which if got into veterinary to make money, then you're an idiot because... Usha: in the right industry at all. Mahesh: It's not easy to become rich as a vet, let's be real, especially the amount of work that we have to put in. But also, if you want to make money, what's wrong with that? You course, you're allowed to to make a good living for yourself. There's wrong with that at all. And you've worked hard to get there. So ⁓ on that level, when you're working with wildlife and doing like kind of wildlife rescue work, for me personally, I find it very rewarding because I feel like... working towards something bigger and I'm trying to do something bigger for the world, if it is just ⁓ a very small level. It's terms of for me what working with wildlife as a vet looks like, it's quite rewarding and also as a vet you, I felt when I was at vet school, I don't know about you guys but you don't really get taught, you don't really get shown how much scope there is. in terms of what you can do with your career and what you can do with your degree. Like when you graduate as a vet, you are like, you've done so, you've done so well to get there and it's not easy. And of course, when you're working, when you're in at university and you've got a hundred, 200 other students with you, all super smart and they've all done, they've all graduated and you might just feel like, I'm just one of 200 people who graduated this year. There's nothing special to that. Actually, no, there is something very special about that. because you're like the top 5 % of people that have graduated in the country because your degree is so hard to get into and so hard to complete. And when you're at vet school, you kind of made to feel like it's very normal what you've done. And actually it's not very normal. And then you're also taught that, you're gonna now go into small animal or you can go into large animal, you can go into horses or you can go to research and that's it. actually there's so much that you can do with your degree and with your profession. There's so much like, and the world is literally oyster because there's animals everywhere. If you want to go and work in the UK, can. If you want to go work in the US, you want to go work, you want to go try and live in Australia for a couple of years. I personally want to do that. You can do that if you want to. If I want to go and work in Africa, I've, I've got, I've been to so many places. I've worked with so many different people from different. Usha: you Mahesh: backgrounds and that's because of this degree and not many people can say that they've done that and I think it's really really cool actually. So I feel like yeah and it's quite nice because as a vet when you come to these when you go to these places you bring a lot of authority and a lot of people look up to you in the community and they will listen to you and actually kind of have an impact. If you want to have an impact you can have an impact and so you can I think vets have a big role to play. in terms of wildlife, work ⁓ conservation work, because you can actually bring a lot to the table and you can have a lot of influence. I don't know if that answers the question, but I just kind of went a bit of a side track. Usha: I think so, yeah. It was a good pep talk too. Joy: I was a walk- Mahesh: Ha ha ha! Joy: As a wildlife conservationist, how do you manage ethical conflicts when your priorities as a vet are different to the priorities of the people? Mahesh: That's a tricky one. And I think a very difficult one because I feel like you're always kind of skirting that line, be honest with you. And I can't tell you that I have a very specific method. I just try, I try my best to do what I feel is right. And I try to always think about the animal first. But that's probably one of the things that I found the hardest in this career. is there's a lot of different stakeholders have a lot of different opinions and who have a lot of different goals mind. And a lot of the time it's not the animal that is at the ⁓ of those ⁓ Sometimes it's, keep rescuing animals, even though we don't have the space, but when we rescue animals, ⁓ that brings in eyeballs, that brings in more donations, and that makes our VIPs happy and our donors happy. Sometimes it's a case of, let's prolong this treatment when this animal is not getting better, but we're doing it because it serves as like more data for a research project in terms of, what's this animal going to look like when its disease is at end stage? What are the values going to look like? What's the x-ray going to look like? When as the vet on the ground, you're just seeing an animal suffer and you're like, okay, let's call it a day. Or you might be in a country where euthanasia is not an option. and then you're seeing an animal really suffer and then you have to ultimately just kind of have to it or, know, especially when you're working with these like big key cornerstone species, there's a of, it's not just, it's probably, that's what's maybe a bit easier when you're working with small animal. Yes, you have the owner and the owner may have their own specific of requirements or finances or opinions. But when you're working with these like big kind of iconic species. It's not just you that's making the decision. There might be the public that's making decision because these animals are sponsored by a whole bunch of people. You have your donors to answer to. You have the founder or your boss to answer to. And then you have to have kind of, there's so many different people who have different opinions and a lot of the time it's what you feel is not the right. decision to make and you just kind of have to swallow that pill. And that can be really difficult to be honest with you. I, terms of how I deal with it, think I'm just, I, I first started, I found that quite difficult, but I've now just come to learn that, okay, this is what the industry can be like. And unfortunately you can't, as much as you want to fight it, you can't it head on ⁓ all the but you just have to do what you can. obviously don't do anything that you feel is wrong, but you just have to do what you can to the best of your ability ⁓ the animal and just hope as you build relationships with these people, whoever these are, that you can kind of change how they do things, but it just can be slower than you would like. And sometimes it's been too much and I've had to just be like, you know what, okay, I've done my time here. and I've enjoyed it, but yeah, this is as far as I can take it. But that can be something that's quite tricky, because sometimes they want you to do, ⁓ what other people want you to do, compared to what you feel is right, can be at odds. But unfortunately, sometimes out of your hands. Usha: I guess in of like the illegal animal trade, I have maybe two questions. Is there a space where keeping wildlife as pets is ever ethical or okay? ⁓ do you think that social media is playing a role ⁓ encouraging that? Mahesh: Um, I guess it depends who you ask. For me personally, I don't, I just don't see it. I don't see where it can be okay. You can give me all the reasons. You can tell me that you'll give this animal the best life it's ever seen and you're to give it the best care it's ever seen, which is fine. And that might be true for that individual animal, but ultimately if you've got a monkey as a pet. and you're giving it the best life possible. Yes, you might be giving it the best life possible, but one, where does that animal come from? Like where's the source of that animal? Because if you bought it from the illegal trade, then just fueled that industry. ⁓ it doesn't matter that what you're doing for it now. And yes, you may have helped that one animal, but every one baby monkey that you rescue, probably 10 others have died or just sat in a cage somewhere. And what message are you putting out to people by showing them that you have? And it's just kind of, for me, I'm just like, it's that human to like, I need to have a wild, why do you need to have a wild animal as a pet? Like, why do you need one? Go get a dog or go get a cat. Why do you need a monkey? Like, why do need a lion? Why you need a, you don't need it. Like, who's telling you that you need these animals? It's just ⁓ kind Usha: in the city. You Mahesh: For me personally, I think it's just human greed. It's I need to have this animal that I can, it's cool. And yeah, I get it. Don't get me wrong, I get it. When I was raising cheetah cubs or when I was looking after baby monkeys, it's amazing having this animal with you and you having all this contact. I understand it, it's ultimately, don't turn around and try and tell me that you're doing it for the betterment of the animal and you're doing it for selfless reasons. And you're just showing me what the power of like. love can do like don't you know don't try and like fool me I understand I understand that you're it for selfish reasons ultimately because if you care about these animals then you don't need to be having them as pets and then social media yeah social media is huge social media is the reason these industries just are not slowing down and why they're growing and it's growing exponentially I mean yeah when you you see, especially now you've got all these influencers who will show you all sorts of things with animals and ultimately it drives clicks, it drives likes, it drives, and it has financial implications where you can make a lot of money or you can become famous and people will look, you know, you get all this fame and then all this kind of, the word, all this love to be like, ⁓ wow, look at you, you have this amazing connection with this lion, wow, you you are just like ⁓ this. amazing person who these wild animals love you and it's like you just you know you're just wanting that kind of you want to stroke your ego it just comes down to ego right like it's what comes down to you I mean I all sorts of kind of pictures and videos on my phone where you know it showed me doing cool stuff with animals ⁓ and sure if I put it up on my Instagram it will get a whole bunch of kind of engagement and ⁓ I get all sorts of views and you know who knows where I'd lead me to but Usha: Thank you. Mahesh: And I can fool myself, I'm like, you I'm a vet, so I'm doing this from a professional standpoint. And I might even have the intention to be like, yeah, I'm doing it because I want to show people what it's like. And that might be true, but ultimately, if you become a famous influencer and I put a picture up of five cheetah cubs in my bedroom, no one's reading the caption. They're just going to see five cheetah cubs in my bedroom and they go, I want that as well. you're just fueling that industry. And no matter your intention, or bad, ⁓ are fueling an industry. again, like I said before about how social media, never know who's watching. Again, you never know who's watching. Someone might be watching from a country where they can go out and buy a baby monkey or they can go out and, you know, poach ⁓ a cheetah from the wild and then sell it and kill the parents. ⁓ cause all sorts of destruction and suffering. social media plays, whilst it's very key, and I think also we shouldn't ignore social media, because I think, you know, ⁓ plays a big part and you can actually use it as a very good educational tool, or if you just want to share your work, I think that's fantastic, show people what's possible, ⁓ know, them whatever you want to, but... Yeah, it's also a very dangerous tool that's definitely kind of fueling this. I mean, you'll see, I'm sure you guys have seen all these huge animal influencers who have millions and millions of followers. But I kind of asked myself, I'd say to people just ask, you know, when they're sharing these videos of them like walking around with lions or walking around with chimps and things like this, and they might try and sell it to you that, okay, you know what, I'm doing this for a good reason. It's like, what do you really need to be going in with this animal? and rolling around, do you need to do that? And what's the reason? Like, why does a fully grown lion or a fully grown gorilla need you to be sat in their enclosure with them? Is there any benefit truly to this animal? And again, you can tell me that it's obituate them, to make it less stressful for them, so you can do better ⁓ treatment for them, but that's not what it is, it's because you want to go inside ⁓ cuddle a lion or whatever. there's no benefit to it apart from for yourself. So social media is ⁓ kind of a big driving factor for illegal trade. Bye, yeah, let me get off my soapbox so can talk about that forever. Usha: I'm like, I asked you, so. Joy: How do you think vets are participating in the dismantling of that industry? Mahesh: In terms of how vets are... That's a tricky question actually. ⁓ would say, mean, the vets are working in these like rescue centers just by directly working these centers to, you know, just do the medical work to help these animals better from a rescue point of view. You are getting now more more kind of vets who are on social media as kind of like influencers who are spreading kind of a good message. ⁓ in terms of that sense, there's also that. But then I do know a lot of vets on the flip side who maybe do share too much, ⁓ Where again, they might be kind of sharing too much in terms of like physical contact or, and again, they might not be coming from a bad place, ⁓ I think you have to be very careful about what you put on social media as a vet, because ultimately you're a professional. You know better. Don't tell me you don't know better, because you do know better, because ultimately you're. you know what's going on in the industry and when you're sharing a picture of you just like having free contact with a wild animal, you need to be very careful about what image that sends to people. And I've been nearly guilty, I've been guilty of it myself sometimes. might put something in black. You know what, maybe I'm sending the wrong message here in terms of what this content is doing. So I think vets have a very powerful role to play because... Usha: Thanks. Mahesh: It's quite nice using a lot of these vets become, you know, very big on social media. And I think that's fun. That's really good. Um, because I think we carry a lot of When we, like I said before, we, we hold a, we hold a lot of, um, like, uh, influence and power in society. I mean, people look at me like this, this person's a vet, so they, they know what they're talking about. So I better listen to them. Um, see, I think vets are playing. playing a big role and I think we'll have to a bigger role but just have to be careful. Usha: Why do you think that illegal trade is such a challenging issue specifically to tackle? Mahesh: Because there's just so much money behind it. It's a multi-billion dollar industry. There's so much money behind it and like the behind it and like behind the trades whether it's rhino horn or cheetah cubs ⁓ lion bones tiger bone like there's so much money behind it it's so powerful that ⁓ it the kind of runs at a government level and it's ⁓ It's very, very hard to tackle. Because again, you might catch these poachers, but they might get a slap on the wrist or a fine, or they might be in jail for a year, and then they're back out doing the same thing. So that's the biggest challenge. It's a behemoth. There's so much money behind it, it's very difficult to... And ultimately, you're fighting against society's need to... Usha: . So. Mahesh: you know, have wild animals or to have rhino horn and it's such a powerful desire that is, for example, with the elephants in Southeast Asia, you want people to stop riding elephants, but that's something that people in Southeast Asia have been doing for centuries. So you're fighting against tradition and culture as well. it's, it can feel like it's too big to be honest, but ⁓ you've to keep going. Joy: Moving on to work-life balance, what do you like to do outside of work that keeps you motivated? Mahesh: ⁓ of the usual stuff I love. I love going to the gym. I like playing a lot of sports or I love to travel just in general. Me and my fiancee, we love to travel. We're actually both going to Uganda on Sunday to just go do some gorilla trekking. No work, just traveling and kind of ⁓ seeing world. that's probably like, ⁓ or just spending time with my family, just switching off and just doing... ⁓ Usha: Hi. Okay. Mahesh: just doing kind of like normal people stuff. Cause it's nice, it's nice to disconnect. So I'll probably say those. I love scuba diving, sorts of, all sorts of, going for a hike. I love a hike. Usha: Do you get much time off when you're working at these places? Yeah. Mahesh: Not a lot, typically I'm looking at like 6 days, 6 days a week and then maybe a day off. CCF, when I looking at CCF that was probably kind of quite unusual because at the time there was just not many of us so I didn't have any days off but most places you'll get like, it'll be like 6 days off and then one day off, 6 days on sorry, one day off. 6 days off would crazy. yeah, typically and then when I'm locuming I'll maybe get myself like a day or two off a week. Usha: Mm-hmm. Yes. Mahesh: But because I'm in and out, I try to just work as much as I Joy: like segueing onto the finance segment, what would you say to students who are worried about the financial viability of wildlife medicine? Mahesh: Yeah, it's tricky. It's tricky. I'm not gonna lie. Wildlife work definitely doesn't pay very well, to be honest. But it's... That's where I like for me personally, locuming is super valuable because I can come back and make good money. you know, kind of... that's where I'll make my money that I need for me. And then the wildlife work, it won't be as well paid, but... It's kind of the work that I want to do. But you never know, you can find ways to kind of make it work for yourself. I know people who will go out and do, this is where like, people that I know who will get into like social media or media work, so they can kind of make their money that way as well. But yeah, wildlife, strictly wildlife work is not very well paid to be honest. Usha: Do you mind sharing maybe like an average salary range? Mahesh: In terms of like the wildlife stuff, I mean sometimes I'll get paid maybe like $500 a month. I the most I got paid at one of these places was like eight, know, what was it? was like, yeah, like $800 a month. So when you're there, it's fine. But yeah, when you're not there, it's difficult. It's not like you're gonna make any money in your savings or, you know, being able to. But when usually when you're at these countries, it's fine. It's not a problem because you don't actually need. Usha: Mm-hmm. Mahesh: and lot of money, but outside of it, it's not great. Joy: Do you look like in a small animal practice or like in a mixed? ⁓ Mahesh: Small animals, yeah. Usually I do locating small animals. like like I'll doing it in like like the Midlands or in like ⁓ kind the Greater London area because there's quite a lot of quite a lot of work going. So that's typically where I'll be doing it. Usha: Great, thank you so much. think ⁓ our final part here is just to do some rapid fire questions, but yeah. Sweet. Favorite wild animal that you've worked with? Mahesh: Yeah, let's do it. That's difficult I was supposed to be rapid fire and Errrr... Gorilla. Joy: What once Mahesh: I listen, I listen. Joy: What's one species you would bring back from extinction? Mahesh: Wooly mamma, that would be cool. Usha: ⁓ one country everyone should visit for wildlife. Mahesh: Kenya. Joy: What's the hardest animal you've worked with? Mahesh: I just animal I've worked with. pig. Joy: ⁓ okay. Usha: Favorite place in the UK for wildlife? Mahesh: Favorite place in the UK for wildlife? Lundy Island off Devon. It's really cool for diving. There's a whole big population of seals. You can go diving with them and they will come right up to you and play with you and things like that. It's really cool. Joy: What's most stressful part of being a wildlife vet? Mahesh: the kind of... the of information and lack of information but also that's quite fun as well. Usha: maybe like the biggest misconception the general public has about wildlife. Mahesh: It's all fun and roses and it's all cool and you're always doing cool stuff all the time but there's a lot of like downtime and a lot of time where you're not doing anything and it's quite boring actually. Joy: favourite animal fact to tell people. Mahesh: Favorite animal fact? I really like that octopus is they don't have one kind of central nervous system like a brain in their head, but it's actually spread throughout all their tentacles. So it's like they have a diffused brain through all eight tentacles. So it's just, I think that's quite cool. think they're basically like aliens that have just been planted in earth. Usha: And finally, what's the biggest lesson wildlife medicine has taught you? Mahesh: never know what's around the corner. Usha: Awesome. Thank you so, much. Mahesh: Okay. Joy: Thank you so much. Mahesh: Thank you for having me, I hope that was good. Usha: It was fantastic. Joy: you.