speaker-0: Today I'm joined by Rachel Boston, one of the most thoughtful and quietly influential jewelry designers working in the UK today. Rachel is one of the most requested engagement ring designers on my jewelry platform, The Cut London. We've been working together for over 10 years now and my clients absolutely love her work. I think Rachel is so in demand for her bridal and bespoke because she's managed to get the balance just right between creating something quite timeless and familiar with the right amount of edge. So you always feel like you're wearing something completely new and fresh, but it's also steeped in design history, tradition, and incredible craft. It's what I call on Goldust, classic with a twist. The sweet spot where the most successful engagement ring and bridal designers sit in terms of style. And Rachel absolutely owns this niche. As a result, she has a thriving waiting list of couples wanting a piece of her sleek, refined style and a beautiful East London showroom where she meets them for bespoke appointments. as well as being open to the public for browsing and shopping. In this episode, we talk about how she grew her business organically without investment, the perils and stresses of opening actual retail locations in one of the most expensive cities in the world, and how one decision changed the entire direction of her jewelry brand. Rachel Boston, welcome to the Gold Dust podcast. I was thinking this morning about how we go so far back to when you had your lovely little shop just off Brick Lane. with Michelle ⁓ I was just sort of in the first few years of starting out my business, The Cut London, and I was looking for like cool independent jewelers to work with. Basically, your work was exactly what so many of my clients were looking for at the time. Just like really fresh feeling engagement rings, but still something quite classic in terms of the silhouette, but like with an edge and with something really different. I mean, it's probably the same. That's probably what people are still looking for today. But that was like 12 years ago, maybe when you had that space.

speaker-1: Me and Michelle opened the shop in 2017. I've been going for about 13 years.

speaker-0: ⁓ wow. So that was a really nice shared space. How did having a shared space work for you?

speaker-1: It was so good. I don't think I would have taken the leap without Michelle. Michelle was amazing at really helping to sort of push me. I'm a very risk-advanced person and I just remember us having like, we'd just gone to see the space and we'd sort of thought that it could be good, but actually the reality of being ready to sign a contract, I was sort of hyperventilating at lunch, just feeling like super anxious about it. And Michelle was just like writing down numbers. like working out what we actually needed to live, how we could make it work, and just being that like real force that I needed. Because we talked about it for years, we've been sharing workshops together since maybe a year after graduating from uni. I worked at home in my living room for probably the first year or two. And then I joined with Michelle and another girl from uni. And then like all my people joined our workshop in just our pattern garden. And we'd always like daydreamed about it and talked about having our own shop. But I just didn't know how to make that a reality. So I think without Rochelle, I wouldn't have been able to take that leap.

speaker-0: Alright, so she was like the catalyst, like chivvying you along to take the leap.

speaker-1: Yeah, Michelle's like a very calm, cool person. am much more anxious. ⁓ I hide it fairly well, but I definitely had a lot of sleepless nights before we opened the shop. It was actually amazing sharing this space because I think it really helped us both grow individually as brands. I think it also had its pitfalls because at end of the day, we are two engagement ring jewelers in London. Indie Jewelers, we're targeting a very, very similar pool of people, our customers. So there would be days where like, you know, I would have seen someone on a Monday and then suddenly I see them coming in for an appointment with Michelle. We've was fine, but it'd be so awkward for the customers.

speaker-0: ⁓ my god. so awkward.

speaker-1: I think the breaking point was one day when I had seen this guy and then all of sudden he was sat down at the desk. think Michelle had let him in or something. I saw him and I was kind of confused. Like, ⁓ God, I have a meeting with him and I didn't realize. So I sat back down and he was like, hi, Tony, so great to see you again. And he was like, I'm actually here to see Michelle.

speaker-0: No, it's like you're being cheated on.

speaker-1: Obviously it was so embarrassing. was just like, and then I just had to like go sit in my little desk. we should, was like the shop and our desks were in the same space. And then I had to just like hide behind the curtain like, ⁓ that was mortifying. I think that was probably one of the moments where we were like, yeah, we probably should go our own separate ways. But I think we were scared about hurting each other and worried that it would be a reflection on our friendship, but it really wasn't. was just, we just, it was just that the shop had been a success.

speaker-0: That's so nice.

speaker-1: Yeah, mean, literally, like, our daughters are playing together this morning. Our husbands have taken them out.

speaker-0: up. That's such a nice story.

speaker-1: Yeah, I feel really lucky to have grown up with her. We went to uni together and...

speaker-0: So you were at St. And what year was that when you did your degree?

speaker-1: So graduated 2011 and then I did the diamond grading course at GIA. And then pretty much as soon as I got back to London, I started creating a collection based off my graduate collection from St. Martin's.

speaker-0: Tell me what your jewelry looked like back then in terms of the style and the aesthetic, because I know there are elements that have carried through to your work as it is now.

speaker-1: The first collection was made entirely in silver and gold-plated bronze. I was making everything. So it was looking back at my graduate collection, but kind of actually doing what I wanted with it. I think during St. Martin's, I got very confused by all the different voices and tutors and trying to be very artsy with it. And actually, I really wanted to re-look at the collection and do it in a way that felt true to actually what I would want to wear and what I would like. So it was all inspired by beetles and scorpions and I was actually casting the actual elements of them. So I was casting like their mandibles, their scorpions things, their ⁓ legs, you know, and I was, yeah, making them in silver prototypes and reworking them into pieces of jewelry that felt kind of like edgy but a bit refined. I didn't want it to be, you know, beetles and scorpions and feel very gothic. was about it being this presentation of these elements, but in a very beautiful and considered way. ⁓ So yeah, that was all silver and gold plates. And I had a workbench in my living room, a setter that I knew was very kind and literally just gave me an old bench that they were getting rid of. And I just sat up there and it wasn't... really like a considered decision of like, oh, this is going to be me starting my business. This is what I'm going to be doing for the next 10, 20 years. It was literally like, I've sold a couple of pieces from the graduate show. I'm applying for jobs designing for jewelers and not getting anywhere. Everyone just wanted like a CAD designer or someone who had that experience. So, you know, any job I would kind of get like a little bit further and like, it just never would happen. So it was more kind of like, okay, well, this is what I'm going to do whilst I'm I'm waiting to get something more permanent. And I was just really proactive with it. So I made a collection. I worked with my flatmate at the time. He made me my logo and helped me with a couple of the branding elements. I built a website on something called Moon Fruit. Moon Fruit, yeah. mean, you can't walk with me, but I don't know if it's still around. I have done ship to Shopify, but you know.

speaker-0: Moonfruit. that today.

speaker-1: I am grateful for the moon fruit days. One thing I really loved at St. Martin's was doing the photography of the collections and working with other creatives to kind of do a bit of like world building. So I did a lookbook with some friends and yeah, just sort of created the first inklings of what would become my brand. And once that was done, I just started reaching out to shops. so many shops, would just send emails to smaller shops. I would do bigger shops as well, but actually I had a lot more success with smaller boutiques ⁓ online. I was with Not Just a Label, things like that, and hoping to sell through my own website. And I'll literally never forget the day that that first order came through my site and just staring at the computer and just happened to like... walk around my flat for a few minutes and call my dad. I just couldn't believe that someone had actually ordered something.

speaker-0: mean, also back then, direct to customer sales, I mean, through a website weren't super common. It's nothing like it is now where it happens all day long. So that must have been so exciting.

speaker-1: It was honestly, even though was such like an early on, I didn't think I've had a high in my business that's ever quite matched that moment. like feeling so proud and in disbelief and excitement at that moment. think it's all, I mean, I've had proud moments obviously, but that just that feeling of like, ⁓ wow.

speaker-0: That's so nice. So you had proper designer maker beginnings then, making every piece at the bench. It sounds like you really quickly realized that what you were doing at St. Martin's, which obviously is a fantastic, incredible place to develop ideas and have that kind of freedom and just to really explore. But it sounds like you really quickly took that. and made it into something that's essentially more commercial.

speaker-1: really wanted to make it commercial during my time at St. Martin's and they getting so annoyed with me in my crits. And I remember Caroline Boardhead being like, if you say the word commercial one more time, I'm going to throw you off the course. She was joking. I think for me, like building a brand and building a business, was something, whether I knew I was going to do that or not, it was something that really interested me. And I really wanted to honestly like make that money from the money that I was spending on these materials and sell something like that to me was a sign of success on the course was if I was able to actually sell these pieces. A lot of the pieces that were so conceptual and so out there, knew they just had no shot of ever being sellable. it kind of felt like, you know, developing that outside of the course. felt like my way of kind of doing it again, but in a way that felt truer to me. I didn't do super well. I worked so hard, but I didn't get like, you know, top grades from the course or anything. I don't know if I'm the right person for that. I am very commercially minded and I do enjoy that side of the business a lot of trying to make things that are sellable and will have an end customer. And I don't, that's not necessarily the goal of the course.

speaker-0: No, but I suppose it's like the starting point, isn't it, to your kind of journey? Yeah. And that's great that you had that business part of your brain. That's actually something that I see quite a lot in successful jewelers is that that business part of their brain is really switched on from the beginning. So they understand the importance of the photography, of the website looking a certain way, and also of pieces needing to be sold. So they have to be commercial. So you have to be looking and listening and understanding what people are wanting, I guess, which is something that you do really well. I remember seeing your work at, do remember the London Fashion Week showrooms?

speaker-1: Yeah, that was a huge moment as well when I got the email that I think it had like a cancellation or something and that was like two weeks before London Fashion Week and what I want to take this place and just feeling so excited and suddenly having like two weeks to get together like a display and all this kind of chaos. But yeah, that was really exciting. That was my first, I think my first proper trade show. showing at London Fashion Week and I did that a few more times and then I did that as part of Rock Vault as well when I was doing fine jewelry.

speaker-0: Yes, and Rock Vault was the initiative run by Stephen Webster and the British Fashion Council. Those opportunities just don't exist anymore, I don't think. It's such a shame.

speaker-1: It's such a shame. mean, that was a huge driving factor, actually, in me wanting to move into fine jewelry because I remember seeing rock vaults and being like, ⁓ my God, I want to be part of this. This looks like a real ⁓ amazing mix of talented jewelers that they were sort of hand-picking and putting into this program. And I mean, by the time I was part of it, I know that a lot of the funding had already started really drying up for it, which was really sad. And then I think I was probably the final class or group of jewelers that got to be part of it and take our jewelry and show at Couture in Las Vegas, which was an incredible opportunity, not achievable for young brands at all. A starting booth at Couture costs like, I don't know, 10, 20 thousand pounds or something. As a young jeweler, who has that unless you have backing? So yeah, to be able to go out there and show was an incredible opportunity.

speaker-0: What difference did those shows or the London Fashion Week experience make to your business then? Did you make connections from buyers or were you looking to wholesale your work back then?

speaker-1: Yes, yeah, I was very focused on the wholesale market. I kind of thought that that was what you had to do ⁓ to grow. So yeah, I was looking really at London Fashion Week to meet stores and press and just get my work out to an audience of people. And it was really tough. Like I would go home and I would just be really deflated, honestly. You know, you wait all day for like... a shop that you're hoping to meet to come look at your work and then they just like walk past you. don't even glance or make eye contact. Like I found it very, very hard. But I did get really good opportunities from it as well. got, you know, I worked with Dover Street Market because of that. ⁓ I got this store in Taiwan. I remember did a really big purchase order of my pieces and actually paid outright for it. So, you know, there was a lot of really good things that did come out of it. But I think for me, the trade show kind of treadmill of it, it isn't what I love to do. I think it doesn't really inspire me or get me really excited. I find it very kind of draining. And I didn't like that I was constantly having to design these like two big collections a year, ⁓ constantly doing that production channel. It kind of felt the antithesis of what I wanted to actually be doing in jewelry, which was much more. creating pieces that were going to be worn forever, not like fashion trend throwaway pieces. So I think after a while, I had started to get bespoke commissions coming through and actually having that connection with the customer, working on these singular pieces that had someone at the end of it that I was going to, that I'd build rapport with, that was making something for them forever, that actually became really what I loved to do and I kind of really shifted my whole business around that. So I did a collection of, I think it was, I don't know, 15 rings or something and they were using Imperfect diamonds, so like gray diamonds, very salt and peppery ones. And that was an engagement ring, wedding ring collection based just solely on those. And I launched that at Couture. I really think of my business in like two halves. I think of like the early years where I was... chasing wholesale silver, gold plate. And then I think of the latter part, which is where I found success, which has been being a bridal, bespoke and engagement ring jeweler.

speaker-0: So that was the turning point when you sort of, I guess, felt a bit ⁓ disengaged with the whole world of wholesale. did you have like, did someone come to you for a commission or how did you decide to go down the engagement ring or the bridal route?

speaker-1: had done a bit of freelance design work for a company in the States actually, ⁓ just doing quite commercial engagement rings for them. And I actually remember thinking how much I enjoyed it, which really surprised me. I quite enjoyed having the constraints of it and trying to be creative within a much more narrow box. And then I think a friend of a friend, she asked me to do her engagement ring. And I think the budget was like, 700, 800 pounds or something. And I'm sure I lost money. I'm so sure. probably spent so much more because I had no idea what I was doing. was, you know, just trying to figure out as I did it, portraying like a real confident, you know, persona to her. But behind the door, I was just like, ⁓ my God, someone is trusting me with this. I don't know who to get this set with. I don't know where to get this cast.

speaker-0: And was that was that salt and pepper? Was that a salt and pepper stone? Was it?

speaker-1: She's an amethyst. Yeah. And I just remember being, I didn't really know much about amethysts. I've never worked with them before and everyone in wards just being like, yeah, that's too soft. You can't use that. You know, and just being like, you know, that's what she wants. Now if someone asked me to make an amethyst engagement ring, I would be like, absolutely not. Like, no chance. You know, you're just, you're just doing what you can at that point.

speaker-0: Of course. You're making a few engagement rings and did you jump on those as a way to really showcase more of what you wanted to be doing? I'm sure because I know you that I can imagine that you photographed them all and were super organized and used them as a springboard to get more similar business.

speaker-1: Absolutely. mean, I think I even, I remember at one point putting it on the website, but feeling like, oh, an amethyst isn't really my, you know, it doesn't really match with my aesthetics. So I photoshopped a picture of a white diamond on top of the amethyst. Did you? Yeah, to be like, kind of this, because I really loved the design. It was very much the core kind of what I'm still doing, like art deco influence through like a modern lens. But I was like, yeah, if I just Photoshop a white diamond on it. It felt kind of cheeky, but at the same time, I mean, I don't think people would think twice about that now, but it was like an example of kind of what we could do. I pushed it as much as I could, loads of pictures, lots of videos. I was on Instagram back then, so I'm sure I shared it a lot. But this was like early days of Instagram, and so it was probably a lot more like actually Facebook pages and pushing that. Yeah, just kind of using that as like a launching pad of like, ⁓ I can also do this. you know, I'm interested, send people my way. And then after a while, when I was finding success with this, did a collection of engagement rings. But with I was making this sample set in silver and cubic zirconia, because I couldn't afford to do it in 18 karat gold and know, this was my way of having an actual sample set that people could come in. try on and get an idea of actually what my signature style was within the bridal world. And I think having that selection of offerings was really, important because people could actually come in and get a sense of it. mean, looking back, sometimes I see like these old samples that got them upstairs somewhere and I'm like, ⁓ my God, these are so bad. They're so embarrassing. The designs are fine, but just like, you know, I don't know if I had. Obviously, I didn't have the eye and the experience that I have now to be like, this is not as well made as it needs to be. But it was just, you know, it's always like a step that the whole business has always been so organic.

speaker-0: So in terms of your actual work and your style, ⁓ touched on it briefly ⁓ at the beginning, and actually I use your brand a lot as a case study on the Gold Dust Masterclass that I run. ⁓ Because I do think that so much of your appeal is how you carry all these sort of signature style details through all your work, but in like a really subtle kind of refined way. How would you describe how your jewelry looks now in terms of your signature look.

speaker-1: would say it's become a lot more minimalist, but still like with weight and statement as the years have gone on. I was very focused on art deco, but through a modern lens for years, and I sort of was described that as modern deco. But I feel like now I'm sort of evolving from that as well. I don't know if it's quite as art deco inspired as it used to be. I still look to that because I love the geometric. clean lines and I think that's carried through, but less of those like very traditional art deco silhouettes that I used to use, like, you know, I'm not doing so much like hexagonal, octagonal, that kind of style anymore. think there's things like the knife edge band that I've carried through, this bezel setting, clean lines, like talon claws, things like that that I've carried through. And also something that actually I've really, I've been very reflective this week. because I knew I was doing this podcast, which has been, I'm not a very reflective person. I'm always kind of onto the next looking forward, but I've been really, really thinking about my career and my business and everything, how it's gone on and kind of noticing threads throughout my collections. And I think it's always been about straddling, trying to straddle the line between something that's elegant and refined, but also has a little bit of an edge, even if it's like. It's got very sort of soft as the years have gone. It's not the scorpions and beetles that it used to be, but there's still, I think, a little something to it.

speaker-0: That is definitely how I would describe your work. That's definitely what sets you apart in my mind for sure.

speaker-1: Thank you. And I'm working on a new collection this week. it's hard when you're working on a new collection. don't really have, I don't have like a theme in mind yet. It's kind of just, I just kind of want to explore ideas that I've done in past collections that actually I really loved and want to do more of and kind of push a little bit more. I'm not, you know, with like a collection I did last year, it was very like, I'm inspired by ancient Egypt and I'm going to have like very clear references. I'm going to British Museum, I'm going to look at books and I'm going to design that way. Whereas this time, I don't have that to circle back to. keep just being like, I really love that ring I did, but I feel like I could do it better and push it and, you know, do something interesting with that. So that's kind of what this collection is. But I know I'm going to have a hard time when I have to like come up with a press blab for it. What is like, what is the theme here? of the theme is just like pushing what I've done and trying to do something interesting and new with it.

speaker-0: Well, I'm sure it'll still, it'll look like undoubtedly like one of your collections and one of your pieces. How do your collection drops work? Like how many times do you do new collections throughout the year?

speaker-1: Because I have PR, I've had to become a lot more structured with it. Before, was kind of like so busy with Bespoke that I, for years, didn't really have time to do collections anymore. But now I've got an amazing team that I work with. ⁓ And I'm trying to focus a lot more on actually creating newness. My PR, Rosie, ⁓ wants me to have like two press days a year. So I'm trying to build collections. for that a little bit, which has actually been quite good because I think if I didn't have that strictness, I would probably just be like, ⁓ I'll get to it when I get to it. Whereas now I'm like, ⁓ God, I've got to have something for the May. I've really got to sit down and start designing now.

speaker-0: Yeah. So the structure really helps you, guess, to keep it there without feeling like without feeling really like a sort of seasonal, like in the fashion brand sense. Yeah. I can imagine it's quite good to have that structure to work towards.

speaker-1: things. Definitely. I think I find that a really helpful element of PR is sort of having to know that we do need newness. We do need to have something that keeps me in the conversation. you know, even if it's just next year, I'm kind of planning like one bigger collection of engagement rings, but also necklaces, earrings, that sort of thing. And then probably what I'm launching actually in a week's time, but again, next year is just a collection of like 15 engagement rings. really focusing on having kind of unusual diamonds, unusual cuts, colors, and designing just a collection solely based on that. And then also it's great because we have that ready to drop on the website.

speaker-0: think that newness is so important in terms of moving a brand forward. I feel like you are always moving your brand forward. You could have easily just stuck in making bespoke engagement rings and that's it really. Do you feel like these collections, obviously they include a broader scope of pieces like earrings, necklaces. Do you feel like those pieces help push the brand forward as well to stop it from just becoming one thing?

speaker-1: Absolutely. think having the collections just gives more products for people to actually come in and try on and see and get inspired from. So I didn't really have any big earrings with diamonds before, so people aren't buying that for me. They're not asking me for that. But now I have these lovely hoop earrings with these big pair of drop diamonds that I did for our collection this year. and now people are coming in, trying them on and maybe they're not buying that exact one, but it's a conversation point like, ⁓ I love these, but can we do these with like ⁓ emeralds or can we do this with like a stud? know, even if I'm not selling that actual piece, it's always great to have something that can be a new conversation or a new point of interest for the customers.

speaker-0: totally agree. And also, if you don't stretch the scope of what you can offer, then as you say, no one's going to buy it from you if you don't have it.

speaker-1: I never used to do sapphire rings. I just didn't have any in my collection. then no one really asked me for them. And then one day I was just like, ⁓ I'm really into teal sapphires. I really want to do some cool pieces with that. And then I did a collection. And now we do so many sapphire rings, which is amazing. We have ones that we have ready in stock for people to come in and purchase. And they always sell really well. And now we also do way more bespoke, think, until you can actually see it. people aren't going to order it. you know, I keep thinking, ⁓ we never sell any rubies. I don't have any examples on the website. That's probably why people just don't know.

speaker-0: Are there any pieces that just consistently sell really well all the time?

speaker-1: From engagement rings, we have kind of our core bestselling styles that are like quite a traditional art deco silhouette. Like our Ida ring has been a bestseller for years. It's like an emerald cut in the middle and baguette side stones. It's a very, very classic silhouette, but with our knife edge band. So those sorts of more classic design styles have always done really well for us. But I think actually what's been really fun the past few years is that I've actually started being a bit older and buying more expensive natural diamonds just to have a stock. I was always very nervous to do that before because I was like, well, what if I spend like 10,000 pounds on this diamond and then no one buys it and I'm just stuck with it for years. And then I did a 10-year collection where I worked with a lovely diamond dealer in Hatton Garden who lent me ⁓ some stones to work with. And, you know, as soon as they sold, I would pay him. We did this like 45,000 pound ring and I remember thinking, Okay, well, I'll just do this for fun because it's going to be such a statement. No one is going to buy that from me. And then literally within two months it had sold. So that's really given me a lot of confidence to actually be bolder with what I'm purchasing, spend a bit more on these initial diamonds and eventually we will find a customer for it. You know, it might not take a week. It might not take six months. I've had a Nexus recently that I've had since 2015 that has literally sold last week.

speaker-0: Really?

speaker-1: was really beautiful. It a diamond slice that I was just obsessed with and I could never understand why no one had bought it because it was such a special stone. And, you know, I've had it for like 10 years since.

speaker-0: wow. But it's Sad to let it go. I know.

speaker-1: It's like, ⁓ but it's time. It's had its time with me. So, you know, I'm much more confident now that eventually things will go. So I'm I think I'm being a lot bolder with the diamonds that I buy.

speaker-0: So let's talk a little bit about your townhouse, I'd like to call it, on ⁓ Redchurch Street because it is three stories.

speaker-1: I mean, he's got a basement, so technically four story.

speaker-0: Four floor townhouse in East London. it's, for those who don't know, Redchurch Street is full of incredible brands. mean, you're right opposite the Soho House restaurant and hotel, ESOP, Reformation, those kinds of brands along your road. They're all really big, big players. How did the move come about in the first place? Like that is a big move.

speaker-1: It was a big move. So Michelle moved out in 2019 from Cheshire Street. She went and started her own studio. And I kept the store, redecorated it. And that was like the Rachel Boston store. And then after COVID, we just had this incredible, yeah, we did so well. And I had savings. And I remember someone coming in. And it was like a business mentor that I maybe see one, see a, and just kind of, I kind of think of him as like a business therapist. I kind of just like to like check in with him.

speaker-0: That's good. We all need one of those.

speaker-1: ⁓ And he was like, I told him how much turnover we'd had this year. And he was like, wow, I never would have guessed that a shop on this street would have a turnover like that. And that just kind of really silvers me that I had outgrown the space. I kept waiting for that street to kind of like come up a little bit and then it just never really did. And then like the shop next door was always smoking weed. So like I'd be in appointments. And it was just me, someone spending like 10,000 pounds on engagement ring and just like my shop just like stinks of weed. ⁓ I knew I needed to get out. wasn't like, it wasn't the, you know, the effect.

speaker-0: It's not on brand.

speaker-1: So mean, Redshirt had always been like my dream. I just never thought that that was going to be possible. So I just kept looking around, went to go see a few different spaces, always obviously kept checking Redshirt Street. Kind of got quite far with another shop, just a bit more better than Green Road. ⁓ And then they just messed me around. And I'm so happy that didn't work out ⁓ because I suddenly saw this place come up. And literally that day I was like called like three times to book, you know, book a viewing in. turned up, so I was like, this is perfect. And I still had that same anxiety that I had sitting with Michelle, you know, all those years before, but I didn't have her anymore. I didn't have that support. So I just had to really, I just had to be brave and know that this was the right move. I had savings. I knew that like if all failed, if I literally didn't sell another ring for a year, I could I could pay the rent for the shop. That was like a big thing for me. needed to have that comfort of knowing that like, if this is a complete failure, I can still live for a year. I can still pay rent for a year on the shop. And that was kind of all I needed to be like, okay, I can do this. And I'm so happy I did. It was just like 100 % the right move. Before in Cheshire Street, we were appointment only. just come in and browse. But now we've got like a space at the front where people can come in and look at the fine jewelry pieces. And then we have the back space, which is where people come in for the private appointments. And then upstairs we have the office and on the top floor we have the workshop and it just couldn't be more perfect.

speaker-0: Do you do a lot of your production and making in-house?

speaker-1: We're doing more of it. Right now we've only got one mounter upstairs. The goal has always been to get more in. It's tough because I really love my workshops in Hatton Garden. I love the people I work with. And I know that taking away all that work to bring in house will have a really big knock-on effect for them as well. So it's a very, very slow process. I'm not ready to quite do that. big change yet. I know we could, I know we have enough work to really sustain a workshop with more people, setters, everything, but I'm not there yet.

speaker-0: Yeah, perhaps in the future. So how big is your team now? How many staff do you have? That's a lot for any business operating now, any sort of small independent business. But I know in the jewelry industry, that's great.

speaker-1: That was 15 of us. It's wild. I look at my, we had a team, a team day a couple of weeks ago where we just like went for lunch and played shuffle, which is the worst game I hate. So bad at it.

speaker-0: Team building though, team building Rachel's important.

speaker-1: I they were all great. I think it's great for them to see me completely be useless at something. I just always really love those days and kind of seeing everyone together because I just think, you know, for like the first seven or eight years I was by myself. So, to now, we're surrounded by like all these incredible women who are just so nice and smart and talented and to have a team that I can like actually...

speaker-0: See you, fam.

speaker-1: talk to and bounce ideas off and learn from and teach. it's a wonderful thing. So I'm very, grateful for that.

speaker-0: Yeah. So I guess the townhouse, as I'm still referring to it, so that's kind of allowed you to expand your team as well.

speaker-1: Yeah, we couldn't really fit that many of us in the old shop. We had like a basement downstairs and it so depressing to like have my team work in the basement. So we would do like shifts. So like Monday, Tuesday, like these girls would come in and the others would work from home and then like mix it up. Because it just, it just didn't make sense to have so many people in the space. So yeah, it's been really nice to actually be able to have everyone on site and all together.

speaker-0: And how do you feel that having a physical space in London is no joke? It's obviously retail rents are super high. But do you feel like it's really worth it for your business?

speaker-1: I think so, 100%. I think people need to have a place that they can come and actually see that it's a genuine business. ⁓ You'd be amazed how many people think that a business they see online could be a scam, especially with diamonds and gold. We don't get that many just random online audits. Most of the time people will come in, they'll see something online, they'll make their wishlist, and then they actually want to come and physically see it, try it. ⁓ understand the quality before they make that purchase. So I think that was a real turning point, actually having the space, having someone to physically meet with people. I mean, had work like the workshop I had in Hatten Garden with the other girls was, you know, people would come there, but it was like, it was literally a workshop. It was not cute. And, you know, we was sharing like six or seven of us this room, so you couldn't like brand it or make it feel like you. Having my own space that I could really work with the interior designers to make it feel exactly how I wanted my brand to feel and have that control over my customers' experience I think is incredibly important. I think that's something I've always tried about with wholesale as well as the people who are selling your work. in a wholesale setting, they don't know your work inside and out. They don't know your brand ethos. Like you can go and do store visits and try and teach that, but there's not that same passion and care that like I know me and my team provide in-house. Maybe I'm too much of a control freak, but I do think that is.

speaker-0: No, even when you had that little small appointment only store, everything was so well thought out and so well considered. Everything's on brand, I guess. And from things like the trays that you put your jewelry on to like the water jug to the art on the wall, everything was really considered. So it's obviously really important to you. All those little kind of elements obviously make up part of your brand, I guess. How important is the idea of having a brand for you? I feel like it's something that just kind of comes naturally to you to consider all those details. But what are your thoughts on kind of the importance of branding as a jewelry business?

speaker-1: I think it's so important. I think it's one of the most important things. I think you're very right in saying that it's not something that I necessarily really thought about a lot in those early years. It was just something that came quite naturally. I'm quite a perfectionist in how I want to present. you know, I was always really thinking about those little details and I've carried that through and now I'm much more methodical with it. It's hard when, especially when it's your... when it's you, when it's your name on the business, you know, it's hard to really be like, ⁓ the Rachel Boston brand. Like, that's not a natural way of thinking. It's more just like, ⁓ this is what I like. This feels good. And because it's all very authentic to me, I think it's naturally been quite easy to create something that feels, you know, succinct with each other because it is very authentic. Like, it is just what I... think is beautiful or interesting or considered and that flows together to create the brand. But I think actually having that eye is incredibly important because I know so many talented, I've met so many talented jewelers who make beautiful jewelry but their product photography is like terrible or their shoots they've done look cheesy and it just cheapens it. So you know, I think it's... It's such a shame, they could be credible at the design and the skills of making and all those things, but maybe they don't have that eye for the branding, in which case I think you've got to get someone in who has that eye because it all feeds into each other. You can't just have the one. I don't think I'm the most talented jewelry designer. I don't think I'm the most intelligent, but I think I have a good eye. for the details.

speaker-0: Yeah, you definitely do. You definitely do. And I think that that is what brings the reassurance from the customer. So the customer seeing that everything you present is of a certain level and it's all cohesive, it feels safe, sort of encourages trust. I think that, I mean, obviously that's what I do on my gold dust masterclass is teach people who don't have that eye like you do, but. ⁓ I'm a huge believer in all those things making a massive difference because it's not just about the design.

speaker-1: No, unfortunately it's not. And I think that's something I learned at St. Martin's as well, was seeing these like really, really talented designers. ⁓ But then you would see kind of like the final look that's huge. I just remember sometimes being like, ⁓ you're doing a disservice to yourself because your pieces are so amazing. And I'm seeing them, I think, how cool. And then I think about like, ⁓ what if you just think, you know, like, what if you did it this way, I've started that way. I just feel like it could. could elevate it.

speaker-0: good advice. If you can't do it yourself or if you're aware that you're lacking in those kind of skills, then find someone who can help you to do it, I think is really good advice.

speaker-1: I mean, I think one thing I wish I'd done more of earlier on was delegating or spending money with people who knew better and who could I could learn more from. think I was very tight with spending for so many years. And so I would always be like, ⁓ I can do it myself. I can figure it out myself. ⁓ And yeah, you can figure a lot of it out yourself. But actually, if you work with someone who's like an amazing graphic designer or a website designer or these things, that's when you can actually go to the next level. You can only do so much with yourself. I wouldn't be anything without the people that I've worked with and surrounded myself with. And I think if I'd probably. had a bit more courage earlier to do that. I could have progressed earlier, maybe a bit faster, but...

speaker-0: What would you have done? What do you think? What was the first sort of big chunk of money that you spent that made you anxious? Well, just felt like a big amount of money to, you know, and then perhaps if you'd done that sooner and sort of taken that plunge sooner.

speaker-1: maybe anxious or maybe, yeah. Probably my website, I for years was like, ⁓ I can do my website. I mean, there's all these amazing templates and things like that. And, you know, just was constantly building, you know, new versions out on Shopify and probably spending what someone could do in like three days would take me like a month and a half. Like, ⁓ how do load? you know, even just like things like that. I just was always of that mindset, like, I can do it.

speaker-0: Yeah, I have that same mentality. It's because you can do it, you can do it, but it takes your time.

speaker-1: It takes so much time. Google is so helpful. But at end of the day, I want to do my website again at the moment and kind give it a fresh start. And I remember I reached out to the same company that I'm reaching out to now. I actually reached out to them back in 2017. And I remember they gave me a quote. And I was like, no, I can't afford that, possibly. And now I'm coming back to them years later because obviously I'm in a financial situation. very different 2017 I canahaw to do it and really invest in that. now, I don't know, just seeing this email that I wrote them from 2017, like, I wonder if I'd actually like maybe taken a little loan from the bank or budgeted a little bit. Like if I done that website with them back then, could I have really grown a lot more and had that art direction that they also offer?

speaker-0: That's interesting,

speaker-1: But you know, I don't, I really don't have any regrets. Like at the same time, I think I've grown at the pace I needed to. I have a very solid foundation and I'm very fine with that. I feel very good about that. I think if I'd grown too fast, if I'd got too many wholesale counts, too many orders at once, I think I would have got too overwhelmed. I would have made mistakes. I wouldn't have learnt the way I have. And so I'm fine that it's been like a very organic. Slow but steady journey.

speaker-0: And have you ever had any investment for your business? No. So it's just grown organically.

speaker-1: I don't like the idea of investment. mean, again, that's something that sometimes think about like, ⁓ if I had taken investment and I could have grabbed these opportunities that I said no to. But at the same time, I think that would have put too much stress. really don't like having to report to anyone. That's why I'm like, this has to work for me now because I cannot go work for someone else. I think if I'd had investment and I'd had to kind of constantly report to people and check in and be like, ⁓ why isn't this selling and why aren't these numbers matching? I think that would have made me lose the love of what I do. I think we sell when we sell. not like, you we don't really set targets in the shop. I'm not like pushy with my salespeople because I'm not pushy with my customers. I don't want to force someone into buying one of my pieces. You know, we're very relaxed at the shop. If you come in, you don't buy anything, that's fine. Maybe you will one day. It's about coming in and making a connection and having fun with that person.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: It doesn't have to be that we're making that sale in that moment. So to suddenly have to feel like, we have to be really pushy with customers. We have to get this sale. We have to meet that. That's not me. It would be more stress than I think it would have been worth.

speaker-0: It's not you. So is bridal still the core part of your business by far?

speaker-1: That's probably our main revenue, 75%, 80 % engagement rings and wedding rings.

speaker-0: And you don't do any wholesale anymore, I'm guessing.

speaker-1: Really, I've just taken on Harvey Nichols. We have a selection of our jewelry there, which has gone out, been there for about a month now. ⁓ But again, that was, they reached out to me and that was like a really cool concept that they had. And it Harvey Nichols that's... We don't have a West London store or space, so it felt like a really nice kind of a way to represent ourselves there.

speaker-0: marketplace.

speaker-1: You know, I don't know how it will do. We'll see. Like we're not priced for wholesale right now. So when, you know, it's not like a money making venture, it's kind of more using it as like an advertising tool. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, I think if the right partnerships come up, then I would be really excited to pursue that, but I'm not out there looking for it. I'm very happy with our space and I'd rather expand that right now than, than try to, to work in wholesale again.

speaker-0: It's great for exposure. Obviously, you must see so many customers, so many kind of, it's great market research for people like me. But you can see how things have changed over the years because you do so much bespoke and so much in the bridal sphere. How have things changed for you? Have you seen like trends emerging or what things have you noticed in the market?

speaker-1: I think there's a couple of things. think definitely we get a lot more couples coming in or we get even just the woman by herself. A weeks ago I had like three friends coming together. The partner hadn't even proposed yet, but they were just doing like a resub.

speaker-0: Doing their research. Yeah.

speaker-1: Which is great. I love when we have the couples together. think actually men by themselves can be quite safe. You know, they go very like round, solitaire, kind of the emoji of what an engagement ring should look like. actually women are so much more adventurous with what they choose. So I really like when we have both people there to be involved. So yeah, probably. Probably about 50, 60 % of our customers are couples.

speaker-0: Finally! That's so nice! I'm so happy to hear that!

speaker-1: Yeah, I think also we have a slightly more untraditional customer base anyway, so it makes sense that it would kind of skew that way. ⁓ In terms of what people are asking for, I think people are definitely more bold with what they're choosing. I think it was very classic and it was always kind of like quite a push to try and get someone to do something a little bit more unusual at the box, whereas I feel like now there's so much. so much interesting jewelry on the market. There's so many more interesting engagement ring designers than when I started. I think as well, customers are so much more savvy. Now they're seeing all these interesting cool designs on Instagram, TikTok, and now they're coming in with references that are so much more interesting and unique and playful, I think. Whereas, for years, was just like everyone just kept showing me that Blake Lively oval engagement ring.

speaker-0: ⁓ the ovals.

speaker-1: ⁓ Whereas now the references that we get are these like bold, chunky, interesting references. And that's such a more fun place to start from. I don't know that's like an industry thing or maybe people also more confident in me as a business and a designer. I have a much bigger backlog that people can kind of see that we can do these more unique pieces. ⁓ It's hard to know kind of because it's so insular when you're a business owner. don't I talk to Michelle occasionally about work stuff, but generally, you're just seeing what you're seeing.

speaker-0: Do you feel like you, when they come to you with these like crazy, not crazy ideas, but like, you know, I'm sure like me, I get sent some ridiculous references of ⁓ all different, you know, all different styles and they're like, these are all my, this is all my inspiration, help me choose. Do you feel like you have to sort of like steer people and help make it more wearable or more timeless? That is that way you're, that's where your skills come in, I imagine.

speaker-1: Definitely, I think I've become much better at advising and also being firm over the years. think actually clients quite like having someone to be a bit like, love what you're thinking, but let's focus a little bit because otherwise you can get so carried away in different directions. And at the end of the day, if we're just doing that one engagement ring initial session, in 45 minutes, I need to kind of guide them from like 20 designs to a direction of like maybe two or three places at the most. So I had to be quite firm in how I steered the appointment. And they can always come back in for a second one, but I really want to make the most out of that first session. So sometimes I think it's about scrapping it all completely and just literally being like, try this on. I have such a big range of rings in my showroom. Try all these different things on, actually seeing them in the flesh, that will kind of naturally pull some things out and help steer them in a way that

speaker-0: Yeah

speaker-1: that feels more focused. ⁓ Or sometimes they're just not ready to make that decision. Sometimes people are still so early on in the process that it's all a bit much. And there's not really anything I can do but just have them try things on, give them some different directions, and then let them just go home and think about it.

speaker-0: Mull it over. think the power of being able to try something on is, I mean, that's the first bit of advice that I give anyone when they're looking for an engagement ring. Please just go anywhere and try some things on because everything looks so different online. Even the scale, the scale that we see images, even on a phone is much bigger than they would ever look in real life. I mean, that obviously just comes with having that sort of stock or those pieces, samples comes with the experience and the years that you've got. behind you, but I do think it's so hugely valuable for customers to see things in real life in a world where everything is online.

speaker-1: Definitely. I think you really can't underestimate the presence of having a sample set for people to try on, of having a physical space. mean, even it doesn't have to be a store, but having like somewhere you can meet them that feels like a relaxed setting and have something for them to try. Because I think that's what really helps people kind of make the decision that that can be the reason they choose you over another jewelers because they're actually seeing it. Like so many other times, like, you know, if we lose a job and people be like, oh, this person could do what I'm about, I'm like, but I can do that. I know I can. But I didn't show them that or I might not have had the sample or something that that was quite what they're thinking. And, know, so naturally they're going to choose what is physically possible for them to either try on or imagine clearly in their head. You know, it's a lot of money for people to take a risk on.

speaker-0: that you didn't show them that. do think that's what lab-grown diamonds are really useful for because it will allow jewelers to be able to show customers stones, they'll be able to muck up more samples. What are your thoughts on the lab-grown boom?

speaker-1: I think that's a really, really good use for them is having samples. I I think back of my CZ silver samples and like even a really good CZ still doesn't look great. A lot of the time people would come in and they wouldn't know it's a CZ, but then you would get someone who's obviously like been to the biggest stores and then they're probably thinking like, oh, she gets really rubbish quality diamonds. And it's like, it's a CZ. Your real one will be amazing. But now young jewelers can buy like a lab grown diamond and make a sample with that. Lab Grown, I think it's a really interesting conversation. I really get the appeal. I can understand that with customers, it's kind of what is their financial priority at that moment? Do they want to spend X amount on an engagement ring, or would they rather spend a bit less and put money towards something else in their life? It's not about being snooty about it or whatever. think what I find frustrating with Lab Grown is the greenwashing. And so we always educate our customers if they ask about, and most of the time people do ask about Labgro now, that they're like, oh, I'm choosing it because it's the most ethical option. It's like, well, actually, I don't personally think it is the most ethical option. I think if you really want something that's very sustainable, very green, let's look at antique diamonds, let's look at reclaimed, that is going to be the best bet. Sometimes they're like, oh, OK, I didn't know that. And then sometimes it's just like, Well, I just wanted to spend a lot less. And that's totally fine. I appreciate that. we do, if people ask for an engagement ring with LabBone, we do make it. We don't have it listed on the website. I don't know if I'm ready to have LabBone listings. mean, do we have a couple of earrings? Because I did them with massive diamonds. I did them with LabBone because at the end of I know. I know we don't have a big audience of customers who are going to spend 25,000 pounds on a pair of earrings. That's just not the customer base I have. But I do have customer base who might spend 5,000, 4,000 on a pair of earrings. So I wanted to make something accessible for those. But for me, what I love about diamonds is kind of the science and the art and the nature all coming together. So my heart is with mine diamonds. I will continue to do my big engagement ring collections with them. ⁓ But if someone wants a lab-grown diamond, then that's fine. As long as they're given the education and the understanding of why they're choosing it, then I'm happy to work with it.

speaker-0: I agree. I think it does democratize the kind of aesthetic. If you want to focus on the design and you want a big stone, big chunky designs are only going to work with a big chunky diamond. Yeah. And if you want that look, then you can achieve that look with a lab-grown, as long as you know what you're getting and you're aware of basically the difference in the origin story, essentially. It's the origin story that makes all the difference. ⁓ And again, it's kind of like a feeling, I think, as well. Like it's how someone feels about something that either came from a factory or came out of the ground. people have different feelings about either of those options.

speaker-1: Exactly. It's where what's important to that customer. What's important to me isn't going to be what's important to them. Every couple that comes in is so individual. And I think it's trying to understand, what is it that's important to you about this diamond? Like you said, is it the size? Is it where it comes from? Is it the history? Is it the age? Is it the journey? There's so many interesting factors. I think also just offering alternatives as well. Is it the green washing that you've had? Is it that you want like a giant size? Like with my own engagement ring, I wanted a really, well, I wanted a big diamond, ⁓ but we couldn't afford like a massive, clear, perfect white diamond. So I had like a really ⁓ lovely included salt and peppery diamond because for me, the origin that it came from the earth and that it was this natural thing was more important to me than it being this like perfect white sparkly beautiful diamond. But that's, That's just me, you know, I have like an attachment to that part of it.

speaker-0: Yeah, it's a personal choice, think. Exactly. Talking about chunky rings, what are you feeling about the recent huge gold price increase? Recent as in the past couple of years. gold prices for those who don't know are at an all-time high. Currently at $4,000 an ounce, I think, as of the 1st of November. How are you navigating that?

speaker-1: It's really tough. mean, we haven't updated our pricing yet and I know we have to. I did update it maybe six months ago. I updated all the men's wedding bands and then some of our chains because I think someone had just placed an order for a bracelet and I realized, we're just covering our costs, just like, and we had to honor it, but like I suddenly panicked, like I've got loads of like heavy.

speaker-0: BAAAAM

speaker-1: chains and things and I haven't updated pricing in years. ⁓ So I did suddenly like a big kind of quick sweep of the website of all the chunkiest pieces and kind of priced them as best as I could. But now it's happened again and it's just so hard because I just don't have time. I literally don't have time to be pricing updating all the website. We have hundreds of pieces of jewelry on the website. Pricing takes so long. ⁓ It's very laborious and I don't have like an amazing, I should do by now, like an amazing spreadsheet where I can just be like, ⁓ today's grand per ounce and then it does all the end. That's a future project for sure, especially the way it keeps changing. But right now it's very just like one by one have to kind of work it out, update it. It's very laborious. But at the same time, I know we have to because I wanted to absorb the costs kind of for as long as we could because I kept just thinking like it's going to even out. It might drop, probably won't, but at least it will stay. for long enough that it kind of feels worthwhile to price enough to do it again in a month. now it just feels like we're just going to have to be doing it much more regularly. But it sucks. These are already such expensive purchases. And now you suddenly have to say to your customer, like, ⁓ this ring that you looked at three months ago is now 400 pounds more, 500 pounds more than when you came in. It's stressful. You worry about, people going to proceed with the order? But at the same time, we can't absorb the costs anymore.

speaker-0: Yeah. And you have to keep your margins tight. Yeah. And yeah, in line with that massive hike. It must be really tough and you've got more overheads and more responsibilities. Yeah. Now you're on Redcho Street. So I can only imagine. I mean, hopefully there's enough ⁓ customer awareness that, you know, it's beyond your control. The prices are sort of spiraling for just unavoidable reasons really that are nothing to do with the industry.

speaker-1: I've shared your post yesterday about the gold type. was like, okay, you can say it so much better than I can.

speaker-0: Well, I feel like if you could, we can try and let customers know that this is what's happening. It's not the fault of the jeweler. you know, we have to, ⁓ as an industry, this is what's happening to the industry. Yeah. But I think that when you're working with an independent designer, you're at an advantage because they can be flexible and nimble and think of kind of creative ways around perhaps, you know, reducing the weight or changing the design or, you know, They are the ones who are going to solve that problem rather than a huge, big retailer.

speaker-1: And also, the markup is going to be so much lower with an independent jeweler than it is with a bigger, a big brand as well. So you're just not going to feel it as much.

speaker-0: for the benefit of our listeners who are majority in the industry and independent designers, what do you feel like has been the biggest thing that you've done, like the biggest catalyst for growth in your business so far?

speaker-1: One key moment for me was I had a very large wholesale order ⁓ with Paul Smith at one stage when I was doing silver wholesale and they actually bought. So all of a sudden I had about 15,000 pounds to actually then reinvest back into my business. And with that, I moved from silver and gold plated bronze to fine jewelry and I made my first fine jewelry collection with that. That was a really, really big turning point for me. Moving into FINE, I think moving into FINE kind of then meant that I got those bespoke orders. I got those ⁓ engagement ring orders as well. And I think pivoting from the wholesale set up to suddenly focusing on the direct customer ⁓ model, that was when my business really started to grow. That whole kind of timeline. was really what I needed to focus on and to really actually fine tune the business in a way that was sustainable and could grow very solidly. Who knows if I was still doing wholesale and doing that, if I would still be here. I don't think I could have had success in that market, just because also that's a market that's hurting so much as a whole anyway now. But I think having the direct customer model has meant that I've been able to really reinvest constantly in the business and keep pushing myself.

speaker-0: Is there anything that you've done that was a massive mistake? what's your biggest sort of, I know you don't have regrets because I agree, I feel like everything is intel. But are there any mistakes that you've made along the way? Or do you do differently now?

speaker-1: I don't know if there's any big mistakes, to be honest. It's a mindset I really don't dwell in. There's definitely moments I wish I could have been more professional, handled myself with more knowledge and confidence. There's opportunities that I sometimes think, like, wow, what if I had done, what if I had taken that opportunity, what if I had taken that loan? There's definitely those kind of sliding doors moments where I'm like, well, what if I had? I remember like having a meeting with matches and they were interested in the collection, but they wanted it in 18 karat gold, the first collection. And I just couldn't, I couldn't even fathom taking out a loan to do that. So I literally just like shot them down in the meeting and was like, no, I can't do that. you know, that was sometimes I think, wow, that was such a missed opportunity. What if I had really pushed myself at that stage, gone in that direction earlier? And what was such a big a big store like that. you know what? It's fine. Like it didn't, that's not how it was meant to be for me. And that's, I'm very, I'm very, very content. I'm very content in my life with where I am with my business. I feel very lucky. ⁓ So for me, I'm just, I'm just happy with it.

speaker-0: That's so great to hear. And lastly, what advice would you give to jewelers sort of starting out today or perhaps they've been going for a few years and they're just stuck?

speaker-1: I mean, there's been loads of times I've wanted to quit. There's been literally like a night where I started like building a website for like a pet clothing website or something. ⁓

speaker-0: You're Rachel, no!

speaker-1: I literally can't do this anymore. I'm so drained. Maybe I should move into this business or this idea or something else. ⁓ like I 100 % get the, I've been through the very frustrating stages. ⁓ But I think my advice is probably, it's like a saying that I always come back to is my Angela is like, do the best you can until you know better. And once you know better, do better. And that is literally my entire principle for my business. I have always done what I was capable of in that moment. I have tried to learn and grow and absorb as much as I can before moving to the next stage. And then when I got to the next stage, I can do it better. I look back on the early years and of course there's a million things I would have done differently, but I wasn't ready yet. You have to be in a position to be ready. all the cliches, fake it till you make it a little bit, know, project it. You've got to project success before you have it. Do that. you know, we're in a generation now of like younger brands who are really, really honest on social media and are like, I'm struggling, I'm doing this. And they're very, very vulnerable with that audience. I was never like that. I was very much like, I have to put on a front that I am doing amazingly, even in times that I wasn't. And that's that's how I knew how to present myself. So I think there's a big opportunity in that. think customers really, especially with young independent brands, they really enjoy seeing the journey and understanding more about the individual. And if that's what you're good at and you're good at being vulnerable, then that's a really powerful thing to lean into is kind of that honest marketing that might not be for you as well.

speaker-0: Yeah, that's such good advice. Basically, we can't know what we know until we know it.

speaker-1: I don't know if that is good advice, it's kind of just... There's much to take from that, I'm sorry.

speaker-0: ⁓ it's fantastic. And thank you so much, Rachel. It's been so fantastic to speak to you and it's always such a pleasure. And I can't wait to see your new collection next week. I'll come to see you next week. Yes, ⁓ I'm excited. But it's just so fantastic to hear from such a homegrown, hard work, success story in London. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast and talking to us all. I really appreciate it.

speaker-1: Absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. I've loved it.