Matt: Does prayer actually work? And what does work actually mean in that context? Are we asking for miracles, connecting with a God who is close to us, or just whistling in the wind? I'm Matt Oldham. Anthea: and I'm Anthea Rettin. Matt: And welcome to Church for People Who Don't Like Church. How are you, Anthea Ratton? Anthea: I am very good, thank you. Yes, busy day as usual, Matt: It has Anthea: but alright, thank you. Matt: Good. And how's your week been? Anthea: yeah, whenever anybody asks me that my mind goes blank. It's, been a little bit taken up with our daughters going back to university tomorrow. I'm taking her up to Manchester. So we've been sort of packing up and busying about and yeah, feeling a bit sad that she's going, but yeah, happy for her. That's cool. Matt: Fantastic. Aw. And she'll be back. Anthea: She'll be back. They're always back. Matt: Good stuff. So less of that. Nice sh small talk. We've got a big topic to address Anthea: Mmm. Matt: again. So I'm gonna ask you a tough question. When people ask whether prayer works, what do you think they're actually asking? Anthea: It is a good question, isn't it? Because the simple answer is, does prayer work? Yes. But what do we mean? And what are people actually asking? And are they asking because they've prayed something and it didn't happen? Are they asking because they just don't have any connection whatsoever with God? Are they asking because they've never prayed before in their life? It depends where somebody's at. spiritually, I think as well. What do you think? Do you think there's a loaded Matt: Yeah. Anthea: sort of meaning behind it? Matt: I think this very loaded and I think it's a good point. So if you are someone who has never been to church or never been involved with with prayer, you probably think it's bonkers. What what are you praying for? Surely you can't mean anything. And they're asking, is prayer something that works? You know, you ask for something and you get it. And probably suggesting that if you pray for something and it you don't get that, well then prayer's a waste of time or prayer's a failure. but then again, I also think there are people who have been in church context for a long, long time and have prayed faithfully and have not seen things happen and feel disappointment. Anthea: Hmm. Matt: So I think you're right, there is different context, but ultimately it's the same question for for all those people. Is Anthea: Hmm. Matt: this something that actually has purpose, has output? I think. So I so I've answered your question with another question. Anthea: Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I think what perhaps the better question then to ask is what is prayer rather Matt: Mm. Anthea: than does it work? What is prayer? Why pray? What do we mean? What do we mean by prayer? Matt: Well then why don't we make that personal then? And what does prayer look like in your life? And not some sort of ideal, I wake up every morning and I pray 'cause I'm a very good person. But yeah, what's what's on at least only only the seven. So Anthea: Mm-hmm, seven hours I pray for you. Matt: so what what now what's your honest v version of that? What does prayer look like in your life? Anthea: Okay, so over my life it's looked very different, but currently prayer is, it can be several things, extended chatting to God, which can involve walking, often walking, walking my dog in the woods and just being, driving in my car on my own is a good place because I quite like to talk out loud. So, I mean, can do that in the woods, but I do. be bit careful, people don't spot me, think I'm Matt: Mm-hmm. Anthea: crazy. So it sort of can be chatting things through with God, which you could say you're just doing that. It can be much more intentional. So it can be what is called a breath prayer. So I might be sitting somewhere and using my breathing, sort of breathing in, saying one thing, breathing out, saying another as a sort of repetitive prayer, which isn't necessarily an ask. It could be, we need peace. You are peace, which is what I was praying recently at one of our peace vigils. And over the last year, I've also been engaging in the Ignatian, the spiritual exercises of Ignatius of Loyola, which is a very structured way of praying, of being with God. where you are given particular scripture following through the life of Jesus to meditate on. So that is a sort of more of a meditative prayer using scriptures and imagining things, imagining that maybe I'm in that story or somebody else's. So that's sort of a more creative space and that probably does take more specific time in a quiet place on my own. I used to do a lot more praying, Dear God, please do this. Matt: Mm-hmm. Anthea: I don't do so much of that anymore. Matt: Yeah. So there's a couple of those things, just to jump in, a couple of those things they've sounded much more like practices. Anthea: Mm. Matt: yeah, what they call them spiritual practices, or so someone maybe from the outside could look at that as almost more like a meditation Anthea: Hmm. Matt: than a request. And I think Anthea: Mm. Matt: that I guess the cartoon version of a prayer is that you're asking, as you say, you're you're asking for something that you don't currently have, and Anthea: Hmm. Matt: and that is something is evolved. in your you know your life, your Christian journey, that you've become more in that spiritual practice side than request prayers? Anthea: Definitely, you know, I've always been drawn to it, but perhaps was brought up in a tradition which was more asking. And I really struggle sometimes with an idea that if you don't pray hard enough, that's why a prayer isn't answered. Or if you just start small, then you can build up to pray for bigger things as you get better at Matt: Mm-hmm. Anthea: it. I just think that can make you end up feeling really, really inadequate because I don't think that prayer does work. That sort of prayer does work. And my honest experiences a few years ago, I was praying very persistently and very regularly for, I knew of four people who had brain tumours and I was praying for them, friends of friends, one known quite personally to me, and they all died. And I don't know what the... Other stories around them were around what God was doing, but they certainly didn't get miraculously healed, which was what I was praying for. So I got quite burned out, I think, with that type of prayer. So adapted and let go of that list type Matt: Mm-hmm. Anthea: prayer that I had been more drawn to. Matt: But your you talked about your meditative prayer asking, you know, f or invoking peace. Now that's Anthea: Mm. Matt: a really a really big ask. Have you Anthea: Hehehe. Matt: ever sort of felt or a particular memory of a of a prayer that you feel has been answered? Because if you're asking for will peace, that's unlikely that your prayer is gonna be the one thing that that changes the world situation. I mean, have you got any sort of specific memory of a particular prayer feeling very real at least? Anthea: Yes, lots of stuff around prayer being real. I think prayer is relationship with God. I think it's how we communicate with God, with the divine, with God. And sometimes we pray in God's name that God might do something for people. And although I've just said I haven't seen much of people getting better from things, I have prayed with people. And things have changed. So there was one incident where a friend was very traumatized by their childhood, had fallen and broken their arm very, very badly right in front of them. And they were very upset by this and feeling guilty and all sorts of stuff was going on. So we just went round and just prayed really simply. I don't even remember the words we used and then chatted and kind of came home again. And ages later, the person said, know, from the moment after you prayed. All that trauma left me. I never had any, my thoughts completely cleared. I'm like, well, that's cool then. You know, I hadn't kind of prayed expecting that to happen. We were just Matt: Mm-hmm. Anthea: praying, you know, just asking God to do something. Years and years ago, and this is more in the miraculous realm, but again, rather unassumingly, I was in a home group. There was this old guy who used to be homeless and we kind of got to know him on the street and joined our group and really sweet guy. They needed to go for major heart surgery, said he had a scan and all his arteries were blocked and you know, he was very ill, supposedly. And so we just kind of did what we always did, which was just prayed for him and along with everybody else. It wasn't any, anything particularly. It was just, dear God, please, please look after him or something. And then again, sometime later, I think he'd even forgot to tell us that he'd gone along to have some, intervention he needed. They'd rescanned him and it was completely clear. And we were like, do you think that was God? You I know you could say it was, who knows, you could argue those sort of things in all directions, but I'd like to think that perhaps was God, but I don't know. And then it raises all sorts of other difficult questions for me. But definitely in prayer, I have experience of feeling different when I finished praying, or feeling closer Matt: Mm-hmm. Anthea: to God, feeling calmer about something I was anxious about, feeling... okay, even when everything isn't okay, feeling more resilient, more stronger. So definitely have that experience of feeling different. So yeah, how about you? I shall switch it. Matt: Some but some people well yeah no that's it I'm I'm happy to answer. I think there's I I have a memory of a particular prayer that I had. So my best mate was and his wife were really struggling with fertility, and then she had an eggtopic pregnancy after just lots and lots of trouble. So that's even halved her chances, Anthea: Hmm. Matt: and I just prayed for them. And then they had four kids in a space of eighteen months or two two years or whatever it was. And I put it down all down to my prayers. So Anthea: Wow. Absolutely. Matt: no, but I I'm joking about it, but it felt like an answer to prayer. And Anthea: Yeah. Matt: it was probably one of the first times that I'd sort of approached my f this particular friend and said, I am gonna pray for you about this. He's not a Christian, I I'm gonna pray Anthea: Mm. Mm. Matt: for you. And and again, I think we've said in previous episodes that people rarely dislike that. It was received, Anthea: Mm. Matt: but it it felt like a a an answer to prayer. If it was Anthea: Mm. Matt: or it wasn't, it felt like it. So that's an example of that. but obviously Anthea: Absolutely. Matt: people could talk about, well that was just coincidence or that was something else, but you can never prove this thing. This is not science, is it? Anthea: You can't prove it is not science. And I mean, what does prayer look like for you these days? Or, you know, how has it evolved for you? Matt: So I think definitely is evolved. And I think I've struggled with the idea of prayer in that sort of asking for something and miraculously expecting to happen or not. So I'm much more comfortable with prayer being about connection with people and connection with God. So as you know, RCM is connected with a homeless charity where we sort of, yeah, we we work with a a team and we put on a lunch for people and I'm often asked to pray for pray for pray for the guys who are there or pray for someone to come up to me and I'll ask for something very specific. And it might be, can you pray for a find me a husband? And I don't think I can do that. And I never do it. I I never Anthea: Hmm. Hmm. Matt: say, No, I'm not gonna pray for you for that, but I will pray for other things, like you know that I'll just pray for peace, I'll pray for you know calmness in your life, I pray for pray for other things. So I think I'm much more comfortable with that, that being good prayer. Anthea: Yeah. Matt: As opposed to yes, I I pray for you that you'll find a person and he will be called Peter and he will be, you know, it's too specific. And I just think it's almost dishonest to pray a prayer that you know that you don't think will happen. but I'm really happy to pray with people and be with people in prayer. Because often I think it's about shouldering you know, hardships with them, sharing problems, Anthea: Hmm. Matt: feeling a sense of connection with someone who is in need. And I think People, you know, often feedback and say I feel better after that. Now, whether that is comfort, a connection with that prayer or or something else, I think that's something that I'm really, really willing and to embrace and I en enjoy doing that. I think sometimes in a more communal atmosphere, like a church and people are praying for something, I sometimes think my mind wanders and it starts as a prayer and it ends up, I don't know, as a shopping list. I find that I find that difficult. So Anthea: Hmm. Matt: I think sometimes for me prayer is a personal thing, not a collective thing. It's you know, having a walk and thinking about something deeply and then sometimes turning that thought into a a prayer. Anthea: Hmm. Matt: and yeah, it's almost like an expression of a desire, an expression of something that I that I w want to happen. Anthea: Hmm. Matt: but I you know, I I'm not expecting for for myself to say a prayer and then that to happen. and I that's just my view on that. I know we should caveat all our episodes by saying other other opinions and views are available. Yeah. Anthea: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Matt: I wanted to touch back on that unanswered prayer a bit because in your role within the church, I'm sure you get this quite a bit. And it comes back to disappointment. you know the people have prayed for something and they feel disappointment. You must get that feedback sometimes that they, you know, you've said before about people come to you say, I can't be that faithful if I my prayer isn't enough, or people questioning God entirely in entirety because they're not getting prayer answered. Do you get that from people? And is and how do you address that? Anthea: A bit, yes, you do hear that from people. Not lots, I would say not lots currently, but I think disappointment can easily set in if a prayer Matt: Mm-hmm. Anthea: is seemingly not answered. And I think also hurt can set in if people have been given unsatisfactory answers to why, Matt: Mm-hmm. Anthea: like, well, it's in God's timing, well, it's in God's will, well, you need to pray a bit harder. I don't think anybody ever said that, but perhaps they implied that. It can make you question the nature of God. Why is this God not answering me? And I think, Matt: Yeah. Anthea: yeah, it depends where your faith sits, doesn't it? I could give you a story. When I was 18 and doing my A-levels, I don't know if I've told this story before, I was 18 and doing my A-levels and I wasn't particularly very... academic then and didn't achieve very well. There's a particular A level I knew I was actually probably likely to pass this one. But I also knew it was going to be my time of the month. And I was somebody who suffered for many, many years with very, very, very, painful periods, incapacitating. I knew it was going to be then. And so I prayed, dear God, please can it not be painful. Please, that not Matt: Mm-hmm. Anthea: happen? And I believe actually, but prayed it and believe that God would sort that out for me because that was the kind of faith environment I was in at that time. Just pray and God will do that for you. Why wouldn't God do that for me? God did not do that for me. In the middle of the exam, I got really ill and incapacitated and couldn't finish half the paper. And I came out of the exam and I distinctly remember thinking, right, God didn't do that. And at that moment, I thought, I could throw my faith away here. I could just decide that Matt: Mm. Anthea: this is rubbish. Doesn't work. I'm walking away. But I knew, and I had something else in my, of an experience of God that I couldn't not know God. So for me, my faith wasn't about whether a prayer was answered or not. My faith, even then was about my relationship, my experiences with God, which were very real. So I Matt: Mm-hmm. Anthea: didn't. I didn't walk away from faith at that point. Matt: That's interesting. It's it's almost like that thing you mentioned before about I'm sure there could have been an answer like well, it wasn't in God's plan or God has a plan for you and that th I'm not sure that's entirely helpful all the time, is it? Anthea: No, I don't think God was trying to teach me something from not answering the prayer. don't think, but maybe, you know, then I kind of genuinely believe God could have done something for me then. Maybe I don't know now whether God can do that kind of stuff or if we hear stories of miracles, but if that happened all the time, it wouldn't be miracles and signs. Matt: Mm-hmm. Anthea: you know, I don't know. Matt: Yeah. And then so th that links really neatly with this next thing about so if God knows you and knows you know he knows every hair on your head, he knows what you need, why do we need to pray at all? Anthea: Well, you know, I know you and I know my family. Why do I need to talk to them? I could just Matt: Yeah. Anthea: put the dinner out at dinnertime and it's really, it's about relationship, isn't it? I think we've absolutely feel that we have a relationship with God and because we're human, the way we relate is to talk, is to interact, is to do something with another person and that's Matt: Mm. Anthea: what. Prayer is for us in how we relate to God. So, yeah. Matt: See what so what you're saying, i i you you're not trying to change God's mind, but you're Anthea: No. Matt: it's much more about a relational action rather than a transaction. Anthea: Absolutely. I also remember, I always sort of learned through story perhaps, and I was in a church, in River Church years ago, and somebody gave a talk and they said, well, here's a little thing I'll tell you. There's a church fake going on and in one village and everybody's praying that it's not going to rain and it's going to be a beautiful time and there'll be lovely strawberry tea and all of that happening and all the ladies are putting out the tea and blah blah blah. He said and like a mile away behind a row of trees there's a farmer and he's looking at his fields and he's thinking, I really need there to be some rain. You know, really needs to be some rain. Please God bring the rain. Which prayer is going to get answered? And like, you know. you know, maybe neither, maybe this is just nature and it will rain if it rains and it won't rain if it doesn't rain. Maybe we can't influence the weather in our prayers, maybe we shouldn't Matt: Yeah. Okay. Anthea: choose to. Who's more important, the farmer or the village tea? Matt: Well then we need to call this out then, Anthea Ratton, you're in the hot seat. Do you believe prayer genuinely changes outcomes? Anthea: it depends what the outcomes are. What are the outcomes? I think prayer genuinely changes us. As I said just now, I think it changes things, changes perhaps our view on the outcomes. I don't think that God is in control of the whole world. Otherwise, we'd have a much nicer world. And, you know, I can pray that the war in a... Ukraine will stop, but it doesn't seem to have stopped. So don't know what God's busy doing because God ain't doing that. Those are big outcomes, aren't they? What is prayer? What are the answers to prayer? Are the answers to prayer this sort of supernatural stuff that's going to spookily happen because we asked for it or is it going to happen because we went and did something and changed something? Matt: Okay, I I'm with you on that. I like what you said about chain prayer can help us. I think that's a good starting point at least. So on that note, what would in your view healthy prayer look like? Anthea: I mean, it is bound to be different for different people, but I don't think healthy prayer particularly is having a huge list of things that you would love God to do that God hasn't done yet. I think that sets you up to end up feeling exhausted and disappointed. Not that we shouldn't pray for people who are in having difficult circumstances. And I think healthy prayer is a balance of all of that. I mean, there are many books written on prayer and how to pray and many wiser people than me have talked about the different types of prayer and we've touched on them, haven't we? Meditative prayer, intercessory prayer. I don't know what the other ones are, but you know, different sort of ways of praying, praying with people, praying on your own, in a formulaic way, praying in an extempore way, praying out loud, praying in your own head. Matt: Yeah. So do do you think sometimes we make prayer more complicated than it needs to be? Anthea: Well, it's interesting. I was reading one of these, I was saying earlier, I've having a rummage through my bookshelf and Pete Greg, who leads the 24 seven prayer movement in one of his books on, he's got a couple of really good books here. One is called God on Mute, which is when the prayer isn't answered. And another one is called How to Pray, a guide for normal people. I'll just read you the beginning of it it's quite funny. When one of our sons heard I was writing a book about how to pray, he said, but that's easy. You just say, dear God, chat to him for a bit and then say, amen. It kind of is that simple, I think. Yeah, exactly. Matt: Well, maybe that's true. The truth in in children, out out of the mouth of babes, yeah, maybe. And that's that conversational rather than transactional, relational Anthea: Exactly. Matt: rather than transactional. yeah, so maybe that's that's the the way we should go. Just think about that, you know, if if someone if you know if Jesus was walking next to you, what would you say to him? You would you talk to him about pressing off then losing again, or would you have to say some sort of highfaluting structured prayer. No, if he if he was your friend, if he was walk walking with your friend, I I know I would be I would obviously be praying for Preston to win, but it would be a conversation about flipping a this, that and the other. So maybe we do overcomplicate things and Anthea: Hmm. Matt: just having a conversation. because you sometimes hear people like say things like, Well I'm not very good at prayer. how can you be bad at prayer? I'm not sure. Yeah. Anthea: Absolutely. I'm not very good at talking. Well, we all talk and even if we haven't got verbal skills, we've probably got things in our mind that are talking. yeah, I think it isn't about being good at prayer. Some people are very good at standing and coming out with beautiful, almost poetry that Matt: Mm. Anthea: is prayer. And that's beautiful, the simplest of prayers. Nobody's making comparisons, are they? There's not a prayer competition. Matt: No. So this is a little bit of a tangent, but and we've just been talking about talking about prayers and Anthea: Hmm. Matt: what we should be saying, but how much of prayer is speaking and how much of it is listening? Anthea: And that's a very good point, isn't it, that any relationship involves listening to the other, if you're just talking Matt: Mm-hmm. Anthea: at some, we've all got that friend, haven't we, who just talks at us. And then you Matt: Hm. Yep. Anthea: go away and you think, well, don't think if somebody else now asks you all about me, you won't know at all, but I know all about you. Matt: Mm-hmm. Anthea: It is about listening and being and just taking space. And I think that's probably the harder part of prayer, the part that most of us don't spend so much time doing because it's quite hard. And particularly in our culture now, it's quite difficult just to sit and be without getting distracted by social media, by your phone, by three things you need to do. there is, you know, I think the listening aspect of prayer is really important. And we talked about that last time, didn't we, about how we hear from God and what does that mean? What does that look like? But that is part of prayer, definitely. Matt: Yeah, and I guess within that we're sort of you need to avoid hearing what just what we want to hear and Anthea: Mm. Matt: maybe having s stillness and going back to those we talked early on about practices, maybe having quietness around you or shutting down one sense, like closing eyes, you know, going Anthea: Mm. Matt: back to our our primary school days of Folding our hands together and closing Anthea: Mmm. Matt: our eyes is about shutting down some of our other senses w when they're Anthea: Hmm. Matt: they're overloaded with all these other things, but just trying to have some peace in that and maybe that Anthea: Mm. Matt: enables input rather than just output within prayer. Anthea: Absolutely. I I was walking this morning and I was talking and lamenting, which is a type of prayer, which is maybe it's a posh word for moaning, but Matt: Ha ha. Anthea: just expressing the bad stuff and that stuff in life is Matt: Yeah. Anthea: difficult. And I was lamenting about the fact I've got to do a big talk at church on the Book of Ezekiel. Anyway, I won't go on about that now here, but I am struggling to pull it together. to know what to say. And then I literally sat down later that morning, opened up my iPad, opened up a particular email from one of my favourite theologians, and it was kind of spot on into what I had been thinking about. Was that an answer to prayer? I don't know, but I did happen to look there that day. Matt: Just just s one hundred percent say it is, 'cause it's good for our podcast. Anthea: Yeah, so it felt like, thank you. I did think to myself, thank you, God. That was really helpful to have that here now, right now. coincidences or answers, you know. I think it, Matt: Living Anthea: I was looking this up earlier and that there isn't, some say there isn't scientific evidence that prayer works and others say, yes, there is, that people who practice regularly in prayer, their nervous systems probably are calmer. They probably are finding it easier to cope with things in life and they are more resilient. And people who have communities of prayer and church communities perhaps are a level of ability to deal with the difficulties in life in a way that they wouldn't if they just lived all on their own with nobody. So there's something there that I would say is God, definitely. Matt: Mm. That comes back to what you said before about prayer changing you, Anthea: Hmm. Matt: which is probably in a very physical way that that can in that circumstance. So Anthea: Hmm. Matt: if if if someone was listening to this who doesn't really know how to pray or is uncomfortable with it or has had disappointment, w what would you encourage them to to try this week or to try differently this week? Anthea: So it really depends how worthy you are and how much of a reader you are. If you're not very worthy, then I think just a simple one sentence type prayer, this idea of a breath prayer as you breathe in, God, where are you? Breathe out. I hope you're here. It could be anything and just over and over again and see what happens. think Jesus did teach us in his How to Pray, he talked to his disciples, sorry, dropping something, and he gave us the Lord's, what we know is the Lord's Prayer, which many of us learned at school. I don't know if you learn it at school, you Our Father who art in heaven, you know, that one. But rather than reeling it off, rote like, try, if you can't remember it, find it, read it to yourself, try it slowly and think about what it actually means. You know, Our Father, it doesn't mean Dad, it means this sense of other God. this over us Father, it's got a deeper meaning than this human one we have. Who art in heaven? I mean, you can have a big old think about heaven if you like, or you can think who isn't kind of here, is somewhere else in some other realm. Our Father who art in heaven. Hallowed be your name. Well, that's brilliant. You might need to go and look up what the word hallowed mean, but it is about this awesome God. this God bigger than us, hallowed, you know, what does that mean? then that's kind of like, can spend a lot of time thinking about the otherness and the amazingness of God, especially if you happen to be outside, you know, and there's a beautiful sunset, hallowed be your name. You know, can spend quite a lot down there. Father who art in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done. Now those are really interesting things to think about. And Jesus talked loads about kingdom and his, you know, all his teaching was about what we call kingdom, just ways of living life. meditate on those, think on those. What did Jesus say about how to live life well? Your kingdom come, your will be done. Well, therefore that must be God's will, not me. So what am I praying for that is about me and my ego or what am I praying for that is about me and my God? You know, you can think a lot on that and, you know, me wanting my football team to win is fine, but it is not really in the big scheme of things, God's will. will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And then you can think about, again, you get into this idea of heavenly realms and heavens and angels and all the stuff we can read about in the Bible. And that's quite interesting. Give us this day our daily bread. Interesting. that's an ask, isn't it? But this day, daily bread is quite simple, isn't it? The simple things Matt: Mm-hmm. Anthea: that we need to live our lives. And forgive us our trespasses. There's a tricky one. I don't do anything wrong. Maybe we do. Maybe we need to have a little think on that and ask to be forgiven. And then even bigger, as we forgive those who trespass or sin against us, what you mean I've got to let somebody off who has upset me and I've got a massive grudge about, you know, you start thinking that, all sorts of stuff might come into your head that perhaps God might like you to think about. And forgive us our trespass, we forgive those. know, for thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, for ever and ever ever ever ever ever and and ever ever Matt: Yeah, and I think that's a that's a great idea. Maybe just but put it into your own words because it's so well structured and and the amount Anthea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Matt: of time is that I'm sure everyone's the same. But we've said it a thousand times at school Anthea: Mm. Matt: and you you just say it as quickly as you can without even thinking Anthea: Mm-hmm. Matt: of any of the words. But maybe just unpicking that again and putting it into your own words Anthea: Mmm. Matt: is a great contemplation. fantastic. Anthea: Absolutely. And you can do it slowly as you like. You could take a line a day. You could do it, you know, it depends how much time you've got. And some people, I don't every day, but it's often part of my prayer practice. Or, you know, there are these brilliant people who write prayers, get one of their books and have a look there and just pray those prayers. You don't have to be invented out of your head. You know, there are other prayers that we know that are equally beautiful. So have a, I would say to somebody, have a go. And Matt: Yeah. Anthea: if it's as simple as, dear God, here I am, amen. That's Matt: Yeah. Anthea: a prayer. Matt: Fantastic. so we've covered quite a lot there. So and I think what we've been saying is that prayer can be a process or a practice. it can have very much a an inner healing property. I think we've talked about you know being honest with with prayer when we're praying with other people and not praying for things that we don't believe will happen. some sort of practical ideas behind prayer. and yeah, I mean I and some hope I think I know some encouragement. I really, really enjoyed what you the the Lord's prayer bit there. I think that's that's really good. and I hope people pick that up as well. We have never done this before, but I think it might be appropriate for this episode that maybe we end in prayer. Anthea: yeah, we could do that. Matt: We could do that. Might be found a bit feel a bit weird our first podcast prayer, but could you lead us in a prayer? Anthea: Yeah, you really put me on the spot there, but I can indeed. Yeah. Yeah, dear God, here we are, me and Matt and everybody who's listening to this podcast, wherever you're sitting, and we say, dear God, here we are, hear our prayers, be with us, give us your peace, may we know your presence, and may we become more like you. Amen. Matt: Amen. Thank you, Anthony. I really enjoyed that. And we will be back soon with another episode and a very exciting guest episode. So we look forward to that. Anthea: another episode absolutely yep Matt: So until then, Cheerio. Have a great week. Anthea: Okay yeah, till then cheerio you too, yeah, bye bye. Matt: Bye now.