Matt: Christians often say that God has a plan for your life, which sounds reassuring until you start wondering whether that plan really is working out. Welcome to Church For People Who Don't Like Church, I'm Matt Oldham. Anthea: and I'm Anthea Raton. Matt: Hello Anthony, how are you? Anthea: I'm all right, thank you. How are you? Matt: I am better after battling, proper flu-y, COVID-y, whatever it is, the bug that everyone had. so I was away in Malawi a couple of weeks ago then had a week of flu. So apologies. It's been a while since our last episode and I know everyone will be waiting with bated breath for our every word. Good stuff. Anthea: A heated breath. Yes, absolutely, absolutely. It was, yeah. Matt: So let's dive in. Anthea: Mmm. Matt: I have a question for you. When people say God has a plan for your life, what do you think they usually mean? Anthea: I think there are perhaps two groups of two categories and then some grey bits in the middle. I think there are some people who mean that God has every detail attended to in your life and that God perhaps knows what's going to happen and where you're going to be and this has gone often. Christians talk about God going ahead of you. and has gone there and prepared some things and therefore has a plan. I think some people might see it in a more broader sense that there are plans and purposes and ways that maybe not so specifically mapped out for you. So I think, and I'd be interested to hear from people listening, you know, what does that mean for you? Do you think God has a plan for your life? If people said that to you, what did they mean when they said it? I think people who said it to me over my many years probably have meant, it's going to be okay. God's got everything in hand. Don't worry. It's sort of part of that sort of praising. I don't know. What do you think? What do you think people mean? Matt: Hmm. Well, I said, rather than what I think, I certainly have heard Anthea: Mm. Matt: several times people talk about that plan as if there is a singular plan. And that is the plan that has been predestined to me by God. Anthea: Right. Matt: And I think maybe that was the first group that you talked about. Anthea: Mm. Matt: mean, I've certainly heard that and I'm sort of struck by that because It's not necessarily what I think, Anthea: a blueprint almost that is there from your conception. Matt: Yeah, it's almost like saying, well, yeah, there's one right job for me. There is one right partner for me. There is one Anthea: Okay, yeah. Matt: right route. Because I certainly think if I look at where I've ended up, it's a really weird plan because I've gone off on all sorts of different tangents. So Anthea: Mm-mm. Matt: that, I mean, that could prove a point or disprove a point, I guess. Anthea: Absolutely. And then what does it mean? Yeah, lots of questions emerge from either of those types of view. Yeah. Matt: Yeah. Is there any sort of biblical anchoring to that sort of thought that God has something mapped out for you? Or is this something that we've created for ourselves for a bit of a comfort blanket? Anthea: No, I don't think it is something we've created for a comfort blanket. says holding her Bible. do, holding her comfort blanket, which is Matt: Holding a comfort blanket. Anthea: a large study Bible. I do think there is precedent in the Bible and there are some perhaps key verses that people will talk about, will go to. one could do a big talk on this. This is not what this podcast is about. So if you're thinking, or she could say more here or less here, then, you you need to contact me separately. But there's a particular verse in the book of Jeremiah in the Old Testament, which is Jeremiah 29 verse 11. And this is one that is often given to people at significant moments in their lives or perhaps at difficult times in their lives. And it says this. For surely I know the plans I have for you, says the Lord, plans for your welfare and not for harm, to give you a future with hope. That's that verse, which is often given. Matt: Mm. Anthea: There are others. There's one, I've got three here. There's one in Proverbs 16 verse nine, which says, the human mind plans the way, but the Lord directs the steps. And then again in... Proverbs, Proverbs are great, they're these little catchy sayings and there's so much wisdom in them. Proverbs three verse six says, all your ways acknowledge him, that's God, and he will make straight your paths. And there's one more, I'll just dip into the New Testament in Ephesians two verse 10. So it says, for we are what God has made us. created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand so that we may walk in them. So that definitely Matt: Mm. Anthea: is one. This one and the Jeremiah one, I think you could definitely read in different ways, but you could definitely read that God's got some ideas on what we might be up to in our lives. Matt: Yes, I get that. But from words like, you know, directing steps, I think there's some scope in there or some difference between there is one path or there is direction. And have we oversimplified that a little bit in church and virtue commons by saying you have one path and this is the way you're to go? Because it seems like most of those quotes, it was more directional rather than specific. Anthea: I would, yeah, I think that too. I think they are, for a start, it's not I know the plan, I have few, I know the plans. I have ways. think it's, you could put in the words sort of purposes, ideas. It's, I do think it can get oversimplified. I think there is a place for taking a verse and... and praying on that verse and maybe carefully giving it to somebody else to say, to encourage them. But I think there's also that can get very misused. And as we often talk about here, maybe overused and weaponized to a certain extent, which can cause people confusion later on in life. So particularly the one in Jeremiah, I can remember when I first came across that and as a very younger person and a younger Christian in my faith thinking, wow, That's amazing, but actually, even then, I don't think I thought it meant that there was a particular route I absolutely had to take. I think I'm already as a God's really, really interested in me and actually cares about me. And that's rather wonderful. But it's in the context of a story and God is speaking not to me, but to the people Jeremiah was speaking to. So when I'm not going to go a big long old talk on that, but if you need to read the book of Jeremiah and understand who was Jeremiah talking to and why and what was that about. as we know, the scripture was written for people then and we read it now. It wasn't written for us now. So yes Matt: Yeah. Anthea: and no. Matt: So we maybe have taken something that was contextual or was said in context and made that into a personal spiritual treasure hunt where we're all going to find the exact thing that is predetermined for ourselves. Anthea: I think there is a danger that one can end up going in that sort of direction, yes, and thinking I have to get this right because God has something for me and I have to find out what it is. And how do we do, how do we find that? Matt: Have you ever looked for that? Have you ever been in times in your life when you strongly felt that God was guiding you to do something or that you were looking for that guidance from God to make a decision for you? Anthea: I think, yes, if I've got a key decision to make, I do look for God's guidance in that. I think when I was younger, I would be somebody who looked for sort of signs and specifics and hoping that perhaps if I was trying to make a decision and somebody else came up and said something that linked to that, or I saw something or read something that this was God talking to me in, as we've talked in previous episodes, perhaps that was God talking to me in. And perhaps it wasn't, perhaps it was me and my intuition and the world around me, or more likely it was a mixture of all of that. There was one particular incident I was thinking of or moment I was thinking of when I was first moved to London. I'd finished studying. I was looking for jobs. I'd applied for three different jobs in different parts of the country. I'd been offered two of them and I went off for the interview for the one in London. which is somewhere I'd done a student placement, so I had been there before. I went for this job interview and I was in Guy's and St. Thomas's Hospital, just on the south side of the river. And I had a sort of individual interview, then I had to go back later in the afternoon for something else. So I didn't really know what to do. So I wandered around, wandered over the bridge. I found myself at St. Paul's Cathedral and I sort of walked past and I felt God saying to me, or I felt in me a strong urge to go in. And I thought, no, no, no, I'm not doing that. I felt it so strongly, like God was saying, no, go in there. So I went in and there was a communion service about to take place right in the middle of the cathedral. And I thought, again, I felt a very strong urge to go and join in on that, which is not really the sort of thing I did. But I went in and joined in on this communion service with a very few people, you know, surrounded by the tourists walking around. I felt very strongly God saying to me, and in my head, you are going to have, I'm going to give you this job. This is the job you're going to get. And I sort of just really commissioning you to work in London and you're calling commissioned whatever language I use then, I'm calling you to be in London. And in my head, I was thinking about, haven't even got the job yet, God. know. But I felt very, very strong, all on my own, nobody I knew, all on my own, me and God in the middle of St Paul's Cathedral, felt really cool to London. And then I did get the job and I did work in London and I still love London. I'm always in and out of London. I like living near there. I've been, I was in there three times last week doing different things. I Yes, that was one of those moments, if you like, a really Matt: Yeah. Anthea: big god moment for me in my life that made my decision for me because I had three jobs to choose from. Matt: So there wasn't a lightning bolt or any sort of miracle. It was just more something that felt comforting and confirming. Was that right? Yeah. Anthea: Hmm, it did, but in a very strong way. Matt: Hmm. Anthea: And I probably not really had anything like that ever since. would not particularly, the decisions have more flowed and gone in a direction. This was a very firm moment for me. Matt: Have you ever made a decision thinking that God was leading you and later wondering that whether actually it was what you wanted or whether it was a bad decision? Anthea: This was a good question. Nothing sprung to mind hugely. Nothing but sprung to mind hugely. Especially not decisions I thought God told me to do when I realized God didn't tell me to do them. But Matt: Yeah. Anthea: what about you, Matt? I wonder whether you've got an example. Matt: Well, I think, no, I think I have definitely not asked God or asked... anything other than myself on these decisions. And I think that has been a combination of a number of things where I was on my journey at a particular time, just an over self-reliance, which is not particularly the right way to go. I'm just being honest about it. When I've had a Anthea: Hmm. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Matt: big choice in life, I haven't done that. haven't, I've always been on gut feel. Now, whether you can say, well, gut feel is part of that. it's things have worked out okay, but I don't think I've ever deliberately put myself in God's path in that way to say I've got a decision to make to help me make this. And that's my bad. I think there's certain things I've done in my life or decisions I've made that have not been brilliant. And I think maybe if I'd taken a bit more of a considered approach to it rather than a bit more of a selfish knee jerk approach, I might've taken a different, different choice. but I think. As I said, I ended up in a good place. So this makes me feel that, yes, there's a route, but maybe it's not a single path. It's just a, you know, there's a general Anthea: Hmm. Matt: direction of travel and there's lots of different ways you can go. don't think necessarily there's some sort of spiritual Anthea: Hmm. Matt: sliding door moment where you say, well, if you do that, you're never going to find your way. But no, I definitely feel that I have not done that. I think maybe Now I would probably take a different approach but certainly when I was younger I was very driven, determined, selfish, self-centered and I wouldn't have considered Anthea: Mm. Mm. Matt: I wouldn't have considered asking God for a confirmation or a sign or a help in that way so that's just me Anthea: Yeah, and I suppose, did you think God had a plan for you or was that not language that was used in your context? Matt: I'd never really used that. No, I'd never really sort of thought about things in that. Again, I was very self-determined. was, the plan was mine. I was going to have this plan. It didn't always work out, but I, you know, I was never really when particularly, you know, younger, younger career, you know, I made some big decisions in terms of moving, know, Edinburgh, London, you know, worked at Preston for a bit and... didn't actually make, I didn't put God into the equation in those decisions. So it would be interesting to know in retrospect whether God was in those decisions or whether that was just me making those decisions and having a Anthea: MMMM Matt: load of grace leading me into a good place in the end. Anthea: Yeah, or whether it mattered as much as we perhaps think it might matter. Like if, for example, Matt: Yeah. Anthea: I had decided, I said, I want to work in London, I want to go and work in Norwich, where I was also offered a job. I think I'd have been perfectly happy in Norwich. It's a nice city, you Matt: Yeah. Anthea: know. Matt: But then how do we distinguish then between your preference and God's plan? Anthea: your preference in God's plan. Well, that's presuming that there is one plan rather than just a way. Matt: Hmm. Yeah. Anthea: So for me, I don't know if I view it as individually as I used to, so I think God has clearly got an overarching plan or plans and purposes for all creation, including humankind. And you see that in this overarching trajectory as we read the scriptures. And yes, that gets picked up in the Jeremiah passages as well, that God wants us to do well, God wants us to flourish, God wants us to treat each other well. As Jesus said, love God, love others, love yourself. If you start working with that kind of a plan, I don't know how wrongly in that sense you can go. I don't know that it how specific, whether it's planned to the last detail or whether it's this overarching sense of do well to others and follow my ways, follow my teaching, follow my son Jesus, that sort of stuff. I do believe that if the whole world followed the teachings of Jesus, we would be in very different place and space. Matt: Yeah, I think maybe a good barometer of that is how that sense of peace and calm with the decisions Anthea: Mm. Matt: that you make. Certainly in my experience, I made one choice which I sort of felt uncomfortable with, but it was like I do it and never felt any peace about it at all. And it was a wrong decision. then I corrected, course corrected if you like, and it was just a sense of, is where I should be. So I mean, maybe that's the sense of if you're striving for something which goes against your plan, whether it's your plan or your personality, your skills, your gifts that you've been given, it just creates that internal friction in you. Which, you again, maybe that's part of this idea of, you know, actually God wants a plan or a route or a direction for you, which is going to be in line with what you are, with who you are, with what your skills Anthea: Mm. Mm. Matt: are. And maybe that was something I wasn't in tune enough with. at that time. Anthea: Yeah, I think there's something very much in that of us being in tune with God, with Spirit, and when you are, you're much more likely to pick up that dissonance when something's not quite right. Yeah. Matt: Hmm. So I think this all comes into sort of like, I know we've talking about ways and paths and this and the other bits, almost like decision-making. And have you ever had that experience of you've had a decision and you've really looked into it and you've prayed about it and you felt you've had nothing in response? Anthea: Yeah, sometimes. Just a sort of blank, really. Just a sense of, well, get on with it. You know, it doesn't really matter. I can't think of anything specific at this moment, but definitely that. Well, yeah, you kind of want to, you don't have to, you know, sense of, definitely have had that. Does that mean God's absent? I don't think so. Does that mean we can use our own mind and make a choice and take a risk and... Matt: Yeah, maybe it's just about the fact that we we're free to make, freer to make choices than we think we are. Anthea: Mm. Matt: We've, and maybe we shouldn't always be looking for guidance. We just should trust ourselves in terms of how we make decisions. Anthea: Mm. Matt: So maybe sometimes that answer is, yeah, you've got the choice. You make the choice. Yeah. Anthea: Yeah, definitely. Matt: Do you think then sometimes Christians are a little bit too... tied into this idea of God told me to and whether it's God told you to and that gives you some sort of authority over a decision that you made. Anthea: I think that can happen, definitely. And it also makes it quite difficult for people then to question that. Well, Matt: Hmm. Anthea: I've heard from God and God says this. So this is what I'm going to do or who I'm going to be or where I'm going to live or whatever, whatever. It makes it very difficult. It can make it quite unaccountable to other humans. I do think God, you know, we're in community, we tend to live in community. We tend to have people around us who carry a wisdom when we don't. And I certainly always like to check in with others around things. And sometimes if I don't know, somebody else might know something. Matt: Yeah, you're right, because it can shut down any sort of challenge if someone says, no, yeah, but God told me this. So Anthea: Hmm. Matt: it's sort of almost like a manipulative type of false authority. And I've heard some wacky stories from people who have, God has told all sorts of weird and wacky things to people which were sort of unqualified and probably pretty hurtful. And Anthea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Matt: maybe there's a distinction between. what God's told you and what you might be thinking at that particular time. Anthea: Hmm, absolutely. Tricky Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Anthea: stuff, isn't it? Because the more you think about it, the more complex it becomes. Yeah. Matt: I think particularly so when also when things aren't going to plan, to use that Anthea: Mm. Matt: phrase. know, so when life falls apart or when life isn't going well, you know, is it is it helpful to say, you know, God has a plan or is that just a hope or a distraction? Anthea: I think it, I don't know if it's helpful in those very moments, I think you could hold on to the goodness of God, that God isn't, I just, I don't think bad stuff happening is God's plan. Matt: Hmm. Anthea: And I just don't think it is. so it's not helpful to speak that over somebody. And if it's been spoken over you, if you're listening, then maybe just take some time to think about that and untangle it a bit because it wasn't God's plan. It doesn't mean that there isn't a way to keep following and there isn't joy and hope and goodness, but sometimes it's very hard to find that when you're in a pit of despair and sorrow because something terrible happened. That even though you'd worked very hard to get everything in alignment and you were praying and you were listening and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Life is going well until it wasn't. But Matt: Yeah. Anthea: that tips into is God in control or is God not in control, which is slightly different to a plan. is it? If God has a plan, Matt: Yeah. Anthea: God must be in control of that plan. Matt: I heard this really recently when I was overseas, when someone had had something really bad happen to them, a medical thing happened to them. know, I think she said in more despair, well, know, God, you know, it's part of God's plan. And I just don't think it is. I don't think God had a plan for her to have that particular medical thing happen to her. It was just poor medical provision. And I don't think, I don't think God would have a plan for someone to have such pain and suffering. It's just that, nothing at all. We live in a broken world. Not everything is going to go according to Anthea: Mm. Matt: every wish. We are going to have illness. So it's almost that thing. If God's got a plan, what do we do with evil, suffering and human choices? Anthea: Absolutely, yeah. Matt: You know, we have to take that into account. The fact that not everything Anthea: Mm. Matt: is going to go our way all the time just because we feel that God's got a plan for us. Anthea: Yeah, yeah. Matt: Yeah, which is tricky. Anthea: Yeah. Matt: So do you think people sometimes carry an anxiety that they've missed what God wanted for them to do? Anthea: I have come across people who have felt that God has told them something and that's been the plan and have never quite managed to do it. I Matt: Mm. Anthea: have come across, not lots of people, I have come across people who spent their whole life in sort of regret, disappointment and often anger that this didn't happen, but God said it would. And it's quite fixed, can be quite fixed thinking and a really hard place to be in. I think that can happen, yeah. Matt: they've chosen the wrong career, married the wrong person, not in the right place. Anthea: Yeah, try to do a business thing and it didn't work out or, Matt: Yeah. Anthea: It's hard, isn't it? Especially in the relational sense, if you've prayed and you've married or partnered up with somebody and then it doesn't work out, you know, what was that about? Was that God's plan not working? Was it not God's plan or is God's plan not that quite that detailed? Matt: feels like an extra pressure on top of everything else if you feel that Anthea: Mmm. Matt: you're betraying a plan that was God-given. That must feel quite heavy for people who are feeling that. Anthea: Yeah, yeah, I think it must feel very heavy and could trap, could trap you potentially somewhere where, which isn't healthy necessarily. Matt: Yeah, yeah. So then in those circumstances, do you think then some Christians have felt this sort of confused calling with a particular job or they've overemphasized a particular thing and it's created confusion or weight around that? So they felt they had a calling and that's not worked out. Therefore, I'm a failure or I'm not fulfilling what God wanted to do through me. Anthea: Yes, I think you do come across people who would tell those sort of stories. I always felt God called me to go on mission to India, but I never did. And Matt: Hmm. Anthea: I always still wonder whether I should. But you can tell that they never will, and perhaps they never would have. we Matt: Hmm. Anthea: have to work on things too. Maybe Matt: Hmm. Anthea: God did say that to them back then. Maybe God didn't, but Matt: Yeah. Anthea: you still have to do something with it. Matt: Yeah, so we'll probably have a much more freedom than we might think. It's Anthea: Mmm. Matt: not just that one thing, it might be one of a number of things. So Anthea: Mm. Matt: I guess, you know, it's mature faith about needing fewer instructions. rather than God, you you talked about that control. So God is less like a controlling sat nav, more like a companion on the journey. Anthea: Absolutely. Although with the sat-nav, the sat-nav does readjust if you go the wrong way. I Matt: That's true. Anthea: I was trying to find somewhere miles away yesterday and the sat-nav every now and again said, do a U-turn, do a U-turn. I was saying, I'm not going to do a U-turn, I'm going this way. And off I went. And then eventually sat-nav will adjust and okay then, if you're going this way, turn left over there and it will bring you, you know. So I think God is perhaps more like the sat-nav rather than Well, if you come off the map, that's it. You've blown it. You're never going to get to where you're trying to get to. Whereas a sat-nav will constantly shape you as a guide Matt: Yeah. Anthea: on the way. Matt: But then maybe rather than asking for every single instruction, we've got permission to make our own decisions with guidance available to us should we choose to use it. Anthea: Yes, definitely, which is exactly what I was doing yesterday because I was trying to find the M4 from in the country and there's a big sign saying M4 that way and Sat Nav was trying to send me some other way. I'm like, no, no, no, I'm going to go that way. It's sort of making my own choices through looking at what was around me. I think, yeah, I think it's about getting a balance. Like you were saying earlier, it's very easy to be incredibly independent and just not involve God in any of our thinking. But I think it's very easy to go in the other space and involve God in absolutely everything. And I think both ways can end up with you getting a bit stuck or jammed up. There must be a middle ground where, yes, we... We are aware of what it means to be God's person and what that means about us, our character, who we are, who we are as a community, who we are as a country, as a creation. And I don't think it's God's plan that we're in global warming, for example. But there are things that I just don't think are God wants for us. I don't think it's God's plan that people die. young, don't think it's bad, God's plan that, you know, there's famine in Africa and, you know, things that go on that are just not in God's plan. That's what I'm saying now, but I just think there is this sort of middle space where we involve God and we're aware, Matt: Hmm. Anthea: we are aware of God's ways, which will influence our decision, either as an individual or as a family or as a community. Matt: Yeah, I think that's certainly something I think I need to work more on of just involving God more in decisions or just having reflecting in it. think I'm quite instinctual and sometimes I make quite knee-jerk reactions and maybe it's about being more considered and involving God in that decision-making process. So maybe we can move towards a practicality. So if someone's listening and I'm putting myself in this category as well, listening in as sort of a major decision to make. What should we be encouraging? What would you encourage us to do? Give me personal instructions about what I should do about big decisions I've got to make. Anthea: it's to a certain extent, it will depend on what the decision is. And I think, and it will depend on where you're at in your life. And I think there's so many variables going on. But I think it is about involving God in however you do. You know, if you're listening and you're somebody who prays in some sort of way, talks to God in some sort of way, then I think it's really important to do that. I think it's important to talk to other people. I think it's important to read the scripture, not so easy to you know, open the Bible and jab your finger on a verse type thing, but just to sort of understand that God wants the best for us. God wants us to do well. God wants us to flourish and wants us to be creative and wants us to sort of do new things. There's loads of lovely stuff in scripture which shows that. So I think there are... many, many ways of making a decision. think it's sort of doubling background to whether there's one decision. You know, those of us who've met our life partners, it's very easy to think, well, were they the only person? So if I hadn't gone on that particular holiday, would I have met and where I met my partner, would I, did I miss it then? And I actually really, really don't think that. Because I think there are various people one could have been married to or partnered with, but I think there's something in yourself that is ready to meet someone, and then you're more likely to notice someone else. So I think there's one right person, but I think it's about whether you're ready. in terms of any decision, are you ready to do that, to make that choice, to make that decision? Maybe as you pray, God will somehow let you know, or not, but others around you might let you know. Yeah. Matt: I'm definitely going to take some on board. I that idea of that middle ground from me being completely self-reliant, being the opposite of someone being overly dependent on a distinct one path that I must take and that being the middle ground between having the freedom that we're allowed and we've Anthea: Mm. Matt: been given to live our own lives but taking Anthea: Absolutely, yeah. Matt: guidance through God and through through friends in God as well. So getting advice from people you trust. Anthea: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Matt: So like a final question, I just want to go back to people who sort of feel for, have, what would you say to maybe someone who's frightened that they have missed God's plan for their life? Anthea: I would say you haven't. I would say, you know, what kind of a God is that? If you are constantly living in, under what? Disapproval, disappointment? God's got ideas, God knows us through and through, so of course God's got ideas, you know, not anthropomorphising God too much, but God... have a sense of what's good for us in the same way that those of us who've got children would think that, you know, my children are great. They make their own choices and decisions. I try not to get in the way of them, but I know them really, really well and probably better than most people. So I kind of know what would work for them and what wouldn't. and if I watched them doing the very thing that I think wouldn't, kind of got to watch them get on with it really and see what happens. You never want to, you so you don't stop loving them. You don't stop. caring, you don't think, well, because you blew that, that's it now, I'm not with you. So if you think God told you something and you didn't do it, God's endlessly forgiving and gracious, so it doesn't matter. And maybe that was a moment and the moment doesn't mean that moment's going to be that. That was the moment throughout the whole of your life. That might have been the moment in 1982, but where we are in 2026, God's got other moments for you. I would say... Try and untangle that if it's a hang up that you have, that God had all these things for me and I, I didn't do them. I don't think it's that simple. There may have been so many different reasons why things didn't work out for you and be kind to yourself. know, God does say we need to love ourselves. Matt: And I think that parent-child analogy is so true, isn't Anthea: Mm. Matt: it? You don't love your children any less if you make bad decisions and you're always creating new opportunities for them and just loving them through that. So I think that's a great place to end as ever. Pleasure to talk to you and we Anthea: tube. Matt: will be back real soon. Anthea: Yeah. And as we always say, what we talk about here is very much our view. And we're always very, very interested to hear from you listeners of whether you agree, disagree, half agree. Love to hear from you. Drop us a line, send us an email, comment in the comments on wherever you're listening to this. We'd love to hear from you. Matt: 100 % and I'll put some some comments place to comment Our email address, please get in touch with us. We'd love to hear from you. Great to see you. See you again soon Anthea: to you. Matt: Bye now Anthea: Bye.