Jimmy Huber: And welcome to another episode of the Info Tech Podcast. I'm your host, as always, Jimmy Huber. And our guest is no stranger to the tech channel. you will know this person from the MSP marketing edge. If you've been an MSP or around the MSP space for any length of time, he's he's almost a household name. At least this is the first guest that I've had that I've previously not only

Paul Green: Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Huber: known about, but have been following for a while. So it's my honor and privilege today to welcome Paul Green to the Infotech Podcast. Paul, welcome.

Paul Green: Thank thank you for having me on, Jimmy. I wish my girlfriend could have heard that 'cause she never believes

Jimmy Huber: Ha ha.

Paul Green: like she she sees me vanish into this room to come and talk to people, but she never believes that any of it ever goes out there. So yeah, I'm I'm gonna say that you called me a household legend and she'll believe that. She'll not go into

Jimmy Huber: Well well I I'm definitely at least in our space. Now I have asked other people because I was excited about this and nobody else that I talked to has heard of you. So it's a niche. I'll even it out there. but it's a it's a great niche and no, it's seriously it it is a it is a privilege to have you on. most people I think are probably gonna, you know, say, great, I'm gonna get some marketing tidbits and and we're gonna get into some deep dive tactical things for my MSP. that is not what this episode is gonna be, and I'll tell you why. you can find Paul very easily online and he has a library of not only website, podcast. I mean, he is the marketing guy, so you can find him well and get all of his content. But as we were prepping for this episode, it was really interesting that we kind of got into talking about each other's business backgrounds and kind of the nuts and bolts of how we got to where we are. So, Paul, before we get into all that. for maybe those that don't know who you are, please give us an intro and just let us know a little bit about who you are and and how you did come to not only start the podcast, but your business in general.

Paul Green: Yeah, thank you. So my name is Paul Green. I run the MSP Marketing Edge. I've been in the channel for 10 years now, which has just gone so quick. I started actually as a as a journalist and a radio presenter back in the mid-90s, and I did that for 10 years. So I was the the guy the more I'm based in the UK. You can I knew most people listening are like, he's either Australian or he's from the UK. It's the UK. So I was on the the breakfast radio music radio for 10 years, and that was such good fun until the 4 a.m. starts stopping fun. And that was when I started my first business, which and that was I learned so much from that because I'd never run a business before. I started as a PR agent with like public relations, so getting publicity for people. I was really bad at that. And then I found I thought actually I enjoy the marketing more. So I went down the marketing route. And then then I niched and started working with optometrists and veterinarians and dentists. And then I sold that business. So I spent 10 years building that first business, sold that 10 years ago, 2016. And the buyer Had a five-year non-compete, which is nuts. Who has a five-year non-compete, right?

Jimmy Huber: my goodness. Yeah.

Paul Green: But he did. So I kind of I I spent a few weeks thinking, I'm really sad because I can't work with the veterinarians that I love. And then I discovered this thing called an MSP and this thing called the channel. And I realized that actually here was this new market. That was 10 years ago. And I'm I'm I'm to use a radio term, actually, they talk about radio presenters marrying the market, where you you move to a city and you never leave. You might move around different stations, but you never leave. It's kind of old-fashioned radio. I don't think it's like that anymore. but I'm I'm married to the to the channel now, to the MSP market. So yeah, I've been here 10 years, have no intention of getting out. what the marketing edge does is we we work with MSPs who hate marketing, who are really bad at it, and they don't know where to start. And that's that's typically anything up to about a sort of a million or two million turnover. we we give you a plan, a marketing plan, we give you all the content you need to implement that plan, and we we hold your hand along. And we only work with one MSP per area. We've got about 700 MSPs. Actually, more in the US than in the UK, which is just the how funny how things turn out. Yeah. So

Jimmy Huber: really? That's interesting.

Paul Green: but I love what I do. And yeah, I just it's it's so cool that I get to to meet people like you. In fact, you're gonna come on my podcast as well, which is which is really cool. So, really, we're doing a really efficient recording session right now.

Jimmy Huber: Yeah. Yeah. Spoiler alert. Yeah. Yeah. No, I I love that. because yeah, there is so much demand in this space for marketers. I think that, you know, being an MSP myself and trying to figure it out, even when I didn't know what marketing was, you run out of your own contacts from your furrils pretty quick if you're doing it the right way and you're scaling like you should. So everybody I think is gonna hit that wall. It's just a matter of when. And then where do you go? Because there's gurus everywhere that promise the world. but you, Paul, I think are one of the best examples that you eat your own dog food. Like it is very easy to find somebody on, you know, Craigslist, YouTube, whatever, but then to dig in and see, well, they are they doing it for themselves well? maybe not. Or they promise the world and you get into a sales funnel and it boy, I was sold this and now they've they've under delivered, right? I think we've all been there. All you have to do is go to your website and it it's all about you personally. Like you It's almost like reading a photo album with blurps that are easy to digest. I mean you've you've constantly dialed it in, I think, for the to be able to engage in a in a world that's just people are being bombarded, right? So tell us a little bit about that, because full transparency, I went to your website in prep for this call and I'm like, hey, if I'm just an MSP, how does this work? And within 30 seconds, I already found that you're actually not in my county, and I could sign up for less than 200 bucks a month and you could just take over. Like and I was almost done. So

Paul Green: Yeah.

Jimmy Huber: Like i it does work, but that's a that's a huge process I'm sure and a journey to get there.

Paul Green: Yeah, th thank you. It's a r it's a really good question and and it's interesting you say about me eating my own dog food because that's exactly what I do and and it's a deliberate decision over ten years to do that. Because literally the marketing that I recommend to MSPs and the you know, we we've done the podcast every Tuesday since November twenty nineteen. Everything in there is stuff I'm doing myself. I

Jimmy Huber: That's wild. Yeah.

Paul Green: know that that well that's that's a system, by the way. We'll come back to that later because that's

Jimmy Huber: Sure, sure, of course.

Paul Green: That just shows how a, you know, in some some weeks I I would rather lose a toe than have to do a podcast, but I still do it because it's a system

Jimmy Huber: Ha ha ha.

Paul Green: and I don't want to break the system. But that's by the by. everything you see on the website, on LinkedIn, on you know, our our lead magnets, our socials, the podcast, all of it is is I'm it's strategic. And by that I mean we've thought about it very carefully, but it's also something we've iterated. And the the Decision to be the face of the business. I mean, it's I've always been the face of the business. Because it was just me, right? 20 2060 2016, actually it was me and a colleague called Ben, who's who's still with me now. Ben and I have worked together for about 15 years. And there was there was I I was I was the the face of the business. he he did the selling and I did the delivery. And that was fine for a year or so. But then we started to grow the team, and we've got, I mean, we're still a small business. We've got 14 of us now in four different countries. but I made a

Jimmy Huber: wow.

Paul Green: decision about four years ago. That if I was because I'm I'm fifty-two now, which I know I don't look here. If I didn't have the grey hair, you wouldn't know. but I don't know how old you are, Jimmy, but but y yeah,

Jimmy Huber: That's for our YouTube viewers. Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah.

Paul Green: yeah, there's a lot of grey hair on the in the YouTube. Jimmy, you seem a l a little bit younger than me, but trust me, once you get to your fifties, you're 40, okay. So

Jimmy Huber: I'm forty. Yeah. Yep. Sure.

Paul Green: at 40 I had all the energy in the planet. And at 52, it's funny, it's just this little thing that just you just start to lose energy just a little bit, you start to wear out a little bit sooner. So I made a strategic decision that I'm gonna only do what only I can do in this business, which is something I've been saying to MSPs for years, but obviously I don't do it myself, because we're always good, aren't at seeing other people's problems and not actually doing it mys ourselves. So I

Jimmy Huber: yeah, for sure.

Paul Green: said, right, only I in my business can be the face of the business, right? And and we'll talk in a second about why you want to be the face of your MSP, because it's really important. Only I can do things like interviews like these, only I can do the podcast, only I can do Couple of other things, right? Client I do a lot of of stuff with our clients, community stuff and live calls and stuff like that. But you know what? Anybody can write the the marketing content we give to people, anybody can proofread that, anybody can edit that, curate that, anybody can do customer support, anybody can do admin, anybody can do billing. I want to say anybody, somebody else can be trained to do it. So about four years ago I made a distinctive decision to step away from everything other than the things that only I could do. And then we systemized all of those things. And I think This is this again, this is exactly what every MSP owner should do. I know that you've done it in your business, otherwise you wouldn't be in the position that you're in right now. And

Jimmy Huber: Sure. Yep.

Paul Green: it's it's a beautiful thing. And people often say to me, like I I'm I I talk at ScaleCon, which is the the the Tech Tribe and MSP camp big conference every year. It's it's lovely.

Jimmy Huber: yeah. MSB camp. Sure. Yeah, Taher.

Paul Green: It's a great conference, it's my favorite. I've done it, this will be my third year in a row. it's in San Diego this year. In September. And like the every year I go, and this it's just it's like being famous for 10 seconds, because there's all these people coming up to you are like, I listen to you, I watch this, whatsoever. And all of that comes from the system. It's from the content system. Cause I'm just one human working maybe 25 hours a week, but I'm being really smart with that work. So like the podcast, which is two hours a week of of my time to do a 30-minute show, that's a really smart thing to do because only I can do it. you know, being the face of the business is really a smart thing to do because only I can do it. Why why would I want to be the face of the business? It's it's the moat that none of our competitors can can break. I mean, we just mentioned MSP Camp, right? We us and MSP Camp, they do they do lots of things, but we we are direct competitors for for my main service and and what I think is still their main service. We're literally

Jimmy Huber: Sure. yeah. Yeah.

Paul Green: direct competitors. And Taho invites me to come to his conference. Third year in row, right? And and he

Jimmy Huber: yeah.

Paul Green: and and and we're friendly competitors, A, because there's a million MSP, well, there's plenty of MSPs out there, getting

Jimmy Huber: Right. Well, game recognizes game, sure.

Paul Green: recognized again. But also, because Taha's done a great job of he's the face of his business, I'm the face of my business. We have crossovers in our offering, but ultimately you're buying into either him or you're buying into me. And that's the beautiful thing about being the face of a business. And the thing that I if I could change what every MSP does, it would be. Brand your business around you. And there does come a point at which it can't be you anymore. When you're two, three million, you're growing, you yourself are an owner, not an operator. That comes a point where you you change. And maybe, yeah, you get more into branding and you you start to tell stories about the business and its people rather than the founder. But for the vast majority of MSPs, I estimate about 80% of MSPs are sort of sub-sub-million or hovering around the million, and that's US revenue. And so

Jimmy Huber: Yeah, yep. Sure.

Paul Green: that's most of the marketplace. In that instance, the number one thing you've got to be different from all your competitors is be the business, right? Base it around you. So if you go on my website, mspmarketingedge.com, go to the about us page, there's a picture of me at a conference with Nate Friedman from Tech Pro Marketing, who's also a great, great guy and another competitor. But we're again we're friendly competitors. There's a picture of me

Jimmy Huber: Yep. Another great guy. Yep. Mm hmm. Yep.

Paul Green: with my kid. She doesn't know that photo's on there, because she's 16 now and she's she's at the age where she could say, take the photo down.

Jimmy Huber: in in the the paddle boat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Green: they've paddled by, yeah, and my my dad and his partner are in that photo. They don't know that photo's there. There's my t my team are on there, obviously they know it's there. So what we've done is we've said, right, people buy from people, and by the way, all of this is applicable to an MSP. People buy from people, they don't buy a brand, they don't buy a logo. Of course, all those things are important. You've got to be professional and you've got to be consistent, you've got to be be organized, but ultimately they put their trust in people. And that's true for what I do at a $200 a month price point. But you have MSPs asking for two thousand dollars a month, where you look on the website and there's no humans or it's AI generated content, which makes me want to scream, because anybody can spot a clawed generated website like that. or

Jimmy Huber: yeah. For sure.

Paul Green: there's there's there's nothing. Tell me about the people. And then these are the MSPs that say, we we don't really get leads. You know, marketing doesn't work, which again just drives me absolutely crazy. It is it is shocking. but you've

Jimmy Huber: Yeah, shocking. Yeah.

Paul Green: you've got to do it about people. You know, w i for B to B purchases and especially managed services people by people.

Jimmy Huber: Yeah, I love that because it's all about human connection. And it's funny, you you mentioned the word systems, and I think a lot of times when people hear processes, systems, they check out. Like they don't want to actually get in and do the work. But like you've mentioned, doing the right way makes your time freed up. It's less work. I mean, yes, it's work in the beginning to get it all rolling, but that is time well spent and that gives on dividends versus just spinning in a wheel and thinking you're productive because you're busy constantly. And then yeah, transitioning that to a team that also people and relationships and get it, I mean, that is seems to be the the best formula, but but most people don't do that. W why do you think that is that there seems to be maybe a resistance? I mean, I I have my own ideas, but I would love to hear from your perspective.

Paul Green: It's it's a it's a great question. And I think the resistance is because MSP is a dark art for sorry, excuse me, marketing is a dark art for MSPs. So y my my experience is that most MSPs are quite good at systemizing tech work. And you know, they're they're on top of automation, they're on top of let's let's get this, let's get the PSA talking to the this, to this, to the that, and they'll happily spend ten hours. Right, br and and it was so much easier today than it was even three years ago. Three years ago it was all Zapier and APIs,

Jimmy Huber: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Paul Green: and it's even easier now. Eve even we have Claude connected to everything, read only, but we we need some information about anybody now. We just ask Claude. And Claude does all the hard work for us, so so my people are not checking five different places. If we're not a technical company, we're a marketing company. So if we can do that, MSPs can do it. I think the issue comes down to not systemizing marketing, but what marketing should I be doing? And I think that's the issue. Because if you know what you should be doing, it then creating a system for it is a really easy thing to do. But you go and look on the Reddit MSP thread, which is a dangerous place because there's lots of anonymous people throwing grenades at other anonymous people. Go and look on

Jimmy Huber: yes. Very familiar with that, yeah.

Paul Green: yeah it is and I I you know when when when it all kicks off on Reddit, it all kicks off. Go and look on Tech Tribe, which is a much more civilized place to have a conversation about growing your

Jimmy Huber: yeah. Yep.

Paul Green: MSP. Go and look at any any community out there. And and the question of how do I get leads comes up sort of one in five posts. And and the problem is everyone jumps in with you've got the guy that swears by SEO, the guy that swears by Google Reviews, the guy that swears by not SEO but pay per clip, the guy that says all of this doesn't work, you've got to have a lead magnet. The go- and you know, none of these things are right, none of these things are wrong, but what what they are what they all are is tactical. And if you if you think you can solve your marketing through tactical stuff, and a tactic is a is a thing, it's a I mean, you can go on YouTube and find a thousand tactics. Go on, you know, this is the new thing. Get Claude to spin

Jimmy Huber: totally. Yeah.

Paul Green: up 30 different websites and you'll dominate your town, you'll do this and do it. And that tactic's gonna work for three months, and then it will stop working because Google or someone will make an adjustment somewhere and something changes, and suddenly that tactic's broken. But but some guys somewhere have sold a ton of courses or whatever teaching that. I I prefer to take MSPs a step back and let's look at the strategy. Cause when you get the strategy right, you the tactics sort themselves out. And actually, there's nothing wrong with all those cool new tactics so long as they fit into your strategy. My six-word strategy that I've been recommending for nearly 10 years is this. It's so simple. It's three steps. Step one, build audiences, right? That's the first step. We'll come back to that if you like in a second, Jimmy. Step two is to grow relationships. Step three, convert relationships. That's my strategy. I

Jimmy Huber: I love that.

Paul Green: Without knowing your marketing, I put $10 as a bet that that's your strategy as well, because it's it's a good solid marketing strategy for any MSP.

Jimmy Huber: Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Paul Green: That that's what every MSP should do. So you go and build audiences, you find people to listen to you, LinkedIn and e your email database. Those are the two biggest audiences for MSPs. Then you build a relationship with them. That's what we're doing here. It's edutainment, educational, entertaining content. And then you you convert

Jimmy Huber: Yep. Yep.

Paul Green: them, and there's lots of different ways to convert people, but ultimately, people only buy when they're ready to buy. How do we find out? When they're ready to buy. And the the easiest answer to that is pick up the phone, give them a call. That's that's currently the easiest answer. I'm sure there'll be an AI solution in time, but today it's still the phone. So that that's it's the it's the strategic stuff that's the where you get the biggest return. But peep to answer your qu go back to your question, MSPs don't systemize because they're they're fiddling around. It's like tax stacked fiddling. I I it makes me my eyes roll when an MSP says, we've been with Halo. For 12 months, and now we're going over to we're going back to auto-task or no, we're going back to Halo. And it's like, and I call that stack fiddling where you're constantly messing around with your tech stack. And I know tech stacks need to be reviewed, but there's an there's 10 new tools every day. And there comes a point where you just say, Do you know what? Tech stack's good, we're gonna review it in 12 months. Let's go win some business. And it's the same with marketing, it's like marketing fiddling of let's play with the website, let's do this, let's do that. Actually, there's some stuff you can just do once. Social proof, right? You can video your clients talking about how great you are, do three videos with three different clients, get a professional to do it for you, spend the money, half an hour with each client. There's five years worth of videos there. I'm not joking. Right? You don't need to refresh that every year. It's a it's a done it once you do it once and you forget about it. That's that's a good strategic

Jimmy Huber: Yeah.

Paul Green: way to do video. Your website, you do it once, you don't need to do it again for five years, as long as it's it's it's human and it connects with people. Our website is now five years old. I have an in-house designer. who who he would happily lose a toe to get me to redo the website. But I've got other things, other priorities for him, other bigger projects than than fiddling about with our website, because most people are doing what you did. They came in today, they looked at it, it's all right. There's nothing wrong with it. And and you're not going to look at it for the next three years. So what why should I why should I muck about with that when I've got better

Jimmy Huber: Yeah.

Paul Green: things to do with the resources?

Jimmy Huber: I love that. Yeah, it it's clear that this is your wheelhouse because not only can you provide

Paul Green: Mm.

Jimmy Huber: great content, but you can break it down that anyone can just understand what to do. I think a lot of times people get overwhelmed. And yeah, AI has made it very easy to change your tech stack. It used to be at least there's some work involved, and now it's like three clicks and Claude just gave me fifteen more ideas for changing all the things that don't really matter. instead of just

Paul Green: Yeah, exactly.

Jimmy Huber: getting down and doing the work and doing it consistently, which to your point. Yeah, in the background of the help desk, that probably is already happening. But when it comes to, you know, talking, getting on the phone, building relationships with people, a lot of owners in our space, that's just not their wheelhouse. But you've got a way to bridge that gap, which is I think why I really love your content, because I am an extrovert. I'm kind of a a unicorn that I can do the technical part, but I can also like I enjoy working a room and going to the conference, right? I don't think a lot of people, they're either one or the other. And you've got a way of kind of bridging that gap. And helping owners understand, like, hey, not only is this something that only you can do, at least at first, depending on your size, but you need to build out the processes before you get other people involved. And you need to understand it because ultimately the owner's job is to drive revenue. Period. They may not know that's their job, they may think that's somebody else's, but ultimately the responsibility and the job of the owner is to do that. And these are some some really easy tactile ways to break that down, I think. And and give it

Paul Green: Yeah.

Jimmy Huber: to in bite sized pieces that actually are effective and move them forward. Would you agree?

Paul Green: Yeah. a hundred percent. And the what you're describing there is a is is like a rite of passage that every owner has to go through. You know, I I started my b first business in two thousand and five as as a as a guy with journalism skills, so I started a PR company. And actually it was the worst thing I could have done. But I I had to go through the realizing I'm really bad at this to to go off and find something else. And then I myself, back in two by two thousand seven, I had two staff doing nothing. And I was working 80 hour weeks and working my way towards death. And and and I you have to go through that to real to wake up one

Jimmy Huber: Yeah.

Paul Green: morning ill, genuinely ill at the weekend, or you you take your only one week vacation of the year and you wake up you wake up on the first morning and your your body won't cooperate with you, and you and your your mind is empty and you you're kind of depressed and you just want to drink. And you're right, hang on, this isn't right. I didn't used to be like this when I was an employee. What's gone wrong? And you you have to go

Jimmy Huber: Yeah, yeah.

Paul Green: through that. To realize you're the bottleneck, you're the problem. Yeah, yeah, sure, you're the greatest asset the business has got, but you're also the bottleneck, the problem, you're holding everything back. And I think, you know, we we there are people listening to this and watching this who are in the early years of their business who are thinking, yeah, I'm not gonna make that mistake. But you and I know they they're going to and they have to to get to the point of actually, I don't like marketing, I don't really like first-line work, I don't really like doing projects. What I love is I love once a week. Getting involved in a three-hour fault, fault, prop fault fixing. That's all I love. And do you know what? Whatever the whatever your version of that is, you can spend, you can engineer your business. So that's all you do. I mean, sure, someone somewhere's got to lead the business. Someone's got to lead the people, set the direction, push. You know, there's got to be someone's got to be over the money, because the money side is the thing that that kills us all if it goes wrong. But do you know what? You can delegate all of that to other people and they can report into you. The the the true Definition of a business is something that gives you the lifestyle you most want to live. And and by lifestyle,

Jimmy Huber: Hm, interesting.

Paul Green: I don't necessarily mean money, I mean time and money. So I I now work somewhere between 25 to 30 hours a week. I'm a s I'm a sole parent. So my I've been my daughter's sole parent for seven years. And so I've I've

Jimmy Huber: wow.

Paul Green: engineered my business around me being at every sports day. I've done every school run, I mean literally everyone, because there was no one else to do it. You know, I've been not missed any event. My child's an actor, you know, I've I've been running my business, sat in a tent while she's been on a on a film set filming, right? She's not she's not like a famous actor or anything, but but you know, she's gone off and done bits of filming. And that and that's deliberate. And so for me, my business is successful. I don't make the most profit. There are many more people in the marketing space making in the MSP marketing space making more profit than me. But you know what? I I I have the exactly the lifestyle I want. I have more than enough money and I have the time to do that. And to me, that's that's success. And I think for an MSP, you know, if you get to that point of, yay, we're at half a million, but I've got four staff and I'm run ragged. Well, here's the here's the acid test, Jimmy. If you have to take your laptop on vacation. Now I know we all choose to take our laptop on vacation because it's our primary device. But if you have to take it on vacation and you have to get up early and before your your partner and your kids wake up, so you can Do a couple of hours, that's you're not running a business, right? You you're

Jimmy Huber: Yeah.

Paul Green: just you're trapped in a well-paid or maybe not well paid job. A true business is where you could disappear for three or four weeks tomorrow and and kind of at the end of it, when you come back, you'd almost be offended because the business is running better without you. And they almost

Jimmy Huber: Yeah.

Paul Green: like people look up and they're like, you're back, are you? And and they go, they go to work. That is a business. That's that's the thing we should all be working towards.

Jimmy Huber: Yeah, I love that. And I think everyone's on their own journey, right? And different points on that line. But being able to recognize that that's actually what you want and define because it's different for everybody. Like our peer group, they called it a life and business planner, right? Like they broke it down like, hey, if you could design, get out of your current whatever you're doing and design what you want, that's a lot harder than I at least when I went through that first, it was really hard. Me and my wife had to sit down and we didn't even know what to write down because for, you know, ten plus years, all I had done was Everything that's just normal. And then to get to the point where you can define it and then then it gets fun because you can reverse engineer steps to get you to that point where, yeah, I've got the time freedom I want or the finances or whatnot. You have to define what's right for you. And then your vehicle bec your business becomes the vehicle to get you there, right? it sounds like you did it, you know, with with the marketing

Paul Green: Yeah. Exactly that.

Jimmy Huber: system. And yeah, it doesn't matter. I mean, there's lots of people that are super wealthy and are miserable. And there's lots of people that are are comfortable, whatever, but they have time freedom and they're they're happy, right? And that's ultimately every person has to kind of decide what they want. For me, like my faith is a big part of my j you know, journey. And so it's more like, hey, what does the Lord want infotech to be, right? Because I feel like I'm just a steward of my business. So there's a there's another layer there, at least in my world. But ultimately, yeah, we you gotta define your goals and then break it down to to get there. And if if marketing is a a Part of that, which it is for every business, right? If they don't know you exist, it doesn't really matter how good your product or service is. I think this is a great way to kind of start though coming out of maybe the the trenches, right? a mentor of mine had a great analogy. They said, Jimmy, you've been in the trenches so long, you've got nobody calling in airstrikes or looking at the whole battlefield. You're just in the trenches with your guys, which are great, but like you gotta get out of here. And what that was the help

Paul Green: Yeah.

Jimmy Huber: desk, basically, you know. And some people maybe are just still in that mode and and you don't I didn't realize it. You don't you don't know. so I think yeah, your your background and and your experience is is so appropriate to be able to say, Hey, not only can I help you, but I was there, right? Like you have to realize gurus aren't born overnight. Like we are just humans like everybody else. We're just maybe a little bit farther down that journey, right?

Paul Green: Yeah, exactly that. And nobody gets to the end of their life and wishes they'd close more tickets. That that could be the title of the podcast, yeah.

Jimmy Huber: Yeah, that's great. Yeah. Yeah. My SLA should have been point two more. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's lovely. what what is your advice for someone? Obviously, people can find all of your stuff, but what would you say to someone who's who's maybe kind of at that threshold, right? Where they're learning that I need more out of this job. I need better healthy more healthy life, whether it's their family or their their employees, somebody is suffering, it's but maybe it's them. What's a good first step to maybe start down that journey? Maybe they have a Saturday afternoon that there's no emergency tickets or something. They've got a little time window. What's the best way to kind of, you know, start down this path?

Paul Green: Yeah, that's a good question. I'm gonna give you two short answers. the first one is I don't think you can do it on a Saturday afternoon. You have to get out, get out of the business. So I've just I'm speaking to you today after a week's vacation. And you know, I my I think my staff hate it the day I get back from a vacation because every time I'm like big po we use an internal system called Basecamp and every time there's a 7 a.m. Monday morning there's a post from Paul and it's a shift, a slight shift in strategy, or we're gonna stop doing this and start doing this. So basically, I come back from vacation, things change. But the reason is because I don't think about the business until like the Thursday. And I wake up on the Thursday morning of the vacation and the best ideas in the world just turn up in my head. And I know that's because e even just working 20, 25 hours, 30 hours a week, I'm still caught up in the business day to day. So so you need that time off. So I think to answer your question, the first thing you've got to do is you've got to get a week away. at least a week. And that means a proper week. No laptop, no phone calls, nothing. So if you're if if the business is you, go and find another one one man band, another one person band somewhere else in the country, like five hundred miles away from you. So that and build a relationship with them on the tech tribe or on Reddit or somewhere, right? And and just scratch each other's backs, look after each other's clients for a week. Because it's like that whole thing, isn't it? What was the what was the thing in the shining? John if Johnny Johnny works all the time, he ends up Going psycho like Jack Nicholson, whatever it is, I can't remember what it All work and no play makes

Jimmy Huber: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul Green: Johnny a Johnny a scary guy, something like that. And it's and it's true,

Jimmy Huber: Yes, yeah.

Paul Green: right? You you might think because you're you're you're 30 and you're you're super good at what you do, that you can work 51 weeks a year and have have Thanksgiving off, but you're also human and you know you our bodies eventually just start to slow us down, just show throw in little little hints of you've got to slow down, buddy, because that's not normal. And we do no quality thinking when we're caught up in it. So actually. However you have to do it, however much pain it causes, get a week away. And that week away, for most people, should be with the people you love, not on your own. Right? As long as the people you love reciprocate that love, obviously. If if if they don't, that's just a bit awkward. but going

Jimmy Huber: Sure. Yeah, yeah. I think you've described a vac vacay it's it's some word, vacation, maybe? Yeah, okay.

Paul Green: Facation. Facation. Yeah. Well, we the the the worst thing you can do is the point I'm trying to make is the worst thing you can do is is go away on your own for a week of thinking, right? I've done that, and you do less quality thinking. What you actually do is you enter the sad, lonely, paranoia zone. Whereas when you're away with your family and you've got your

Jimmy Huber: yeah, that could be a slippery slope.

Paul Green: your dog, yeah, exactly. It is, it is. It's it's all three days on your own is amazing for most of us, and then we want to be out with our with our people again. but being away with your people, the whole point is not to think about work. And then the the the the you end up having the conversation on the Thursday night with your other half about which which and sometimes it starts with tears and don't be scared of tears, right? But that whole, but we never see you anymore, but you're always at work. But even when you're here, you're not here. Your body's here, but your mind's somewhere else. And every single one of us, business owners,

Jimmy Huber: Hmm. Ouch. Yep.

Paul Green: has been has been accused of that. And we've all we've all done it. But you have to go through all of that to to start to think, well, what do I want differently? So that's the first part. The second part, Jimmy, you mentioned peer groups. I think joining a peer group is is the it's the number one answer to to that problem. So it's not the only answer. There's good there are good coaches out there, there are good mentors, there's lots of there are good mastermind groups, there's lots of different ways of doing it. But having other people who are like you and who have the same or similar values, similar hopes and fears and wants and needs, and working together as a group. And this whole concept came out of a book called Think and Grow Rich, which I'm sure you've read. It was written in the 1930s by Napoleon Hill. There is some debate

Jimmy Huber: yeah, sure. Yep, that's a great one.

Paul Green: as to whether it's a piece of fiction or whether it's actually based on his interviews with the millionaires of the days, like Henry Ford's

Jimmy Huber: Yeah, yeah.

Paul Green: and whatever. But does it it doesn't matter? The point is, it was the first truly self-help book. It's an incredible book to read. And one of the concepts he talks about is that of the mastermind. That's why they're called mastermind groups, where you have a group of people. like you, same values, they they want to achieve what you want to achieve. And remember, for most MSPs, most MSPs do not want a yacht, they do not want a beach house, they just want a slightly bigger house, maybe a better car. What they really want is to spend more time and go on more vacations to better places with their other half and their kids. Right? We that's what most of us

Jimmy Huber: Yeah, sure.

Paul Green: normal people want. So a peer group, I I think is you realize you're not alone. You you've got people you can talk to you that you can break down in front of, because that happens in peer groups. You've got people who are slightly ahead of you, you've got people who are slightly behind you. And that is a di if you get the right peer group and it's the right mix of people, it's beautiful.

Jimmy Huber: Yeah, that's definitely been a huge part of of InfoTech's journey. I mean, full transparency, we're still a part of the Caseya Incubator troop here. So, you know, Gary Pika and that whole group. and yeah, that was integral for us to get to the next level because we didn't know what we didn't know. we've even moved inside different pods a couple of times because you know, we we would get further along and kind of outgrow you know, maybe some of the other groups, and now we're in a pod where one of the smallest companies, right? And we can then keep going and learn the next steps, you know, as we continue to grow. So, yeah, I mean, I've got in my phone half a dozen guys from across the country that I could, you know, text or call any time and they've already they know the concepts. They they know the context of what we're dealing with. and that's something that, yeah, the only reason you're not in a peer group is I feel like 'cause you've never been in one. Like you don't know the value. Once you've been in it

Paul Green: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Jimmy Huber: and you're doing it the right way, yeah, that that's a definite game changer.

Paul Green: Yeah. It should it should almost be a a a a a

Jimmy Huber: Paul, I feel like we've just Good.

Paul Green: requisite. It should it should almost be something d you know, I know there's lots of talk about regulation on MSPs. The number one regulation should be you must be in a peer group. could you imagine how much better the whole channel would be if every if every MSP was in a peer group? Yeah.

Jimmy Huber: Yeah. hundred percent. Yeah, I mean you've got a lot of high octane w owners that are small teams that are doing everything and killing it individually, but also killing themselves. Like like it they and they're and

Paul Green: Yes, exactly.

Jimmy Huber: they're doing it alone. And yeah, I don't think we're just we're not made to do stuff alone. that's just the the crux of it. but yeah, I I couldn't agree more. I I feel like, you know, we barely scratched the surface. So I definitely want to have you back, Paul. I mean, you've got such a a huge platform and you're willing to get into the weeds with with your customers and the community and in our channel. and I really appreciate that. I think that comes through. you're you're a genuine guy and I appreciate your time today. If if somebody does, you know, it resonates with them, I mean we'll put it in the show notes. But what's the easiest way to get a hold of you or your team? Just maybe to even have a conversation. and see what it it would be like to not only work with you but maybe start down that that path, that journey.

Paul Green: Yeah, cool. Cool. Thank you. And so thank you so much for having me on the show. Easiest ways to find me is MspmarketingEdge.com. That's got links to everything on there. Obviously, I'm on LinkedIn, Paul Green, MSP Marketing. I have a book on Amazon and Audible called MSP Marketing Start Here. That actually answers the questions we were talking about at the beginning

Jimmy Huber: perfect.

Paul Green: of where do I get started? and yeah, feel free. It's it is the real me. Obviously, I have a system where my VA does most of my LinkedIn for me. But if you say I was on Jimmy's podcast and and and you said to reach out, she w my my V and I my V A and I have enough of an internal understanding now that anything which is a genuinely personal, she she'll just leave that for me to answer. Whereas if you just message a standard

Jimmy Huber: perfect.

Paul Green: message, she's gonna give you a standard answer. So yeah, just say you were on on this podcast or you you heard me on this podcast and I'd I'd love to talk to you.

Jimmy Huber: Well, there's the tidbit for those that have stuck through to the end of this episode. they get the cheat code to get through to to Paul the the man on LinkedIn. But no, this has been fantastic. I look forward to to staying in touch with you, Paul. And yeah, if hopefully listeners have picked up a couple of tactile things that from your journey and just hearing about how you operate and how you got here today. I know I I learned something every time I talk to you, and it's been great. So yeah, we'll see you guys next time. And I really appreciate it. Take care.