Jimmy Huber: And welcome to another episode of the InfoTech Podcast. I'm your host, as always, Jimmy Huber. And we try to vary it on this podcast with our vet with our guests. And today is definitely no exception. Rusty Pickens is the owner and founder of 580 Strategies. And I'm really looking forward to his His perspective today, he's a consultant in the public sector, which I think it's you're the first one, Rusty, I think that I've had that works directly with the federal government. So I'm I'm excited for that perspective today. welcome to the podcast. Rusty Pickens: Yeah, thanks for having me. This is gonna be a cool conversation, Jimmy, and I appreciate you having me on and love to talk about this stuff, so it'll be great. Jimmy Huber: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Well, let me just to clear the deck here, I want to give you an opportunity to formally, you know, introduce yourself, talk about kind of how you started five eighty and what brought you into, you know, this this market, this sector. who is Rusty Pickens? Rusty Pickens: Yeah, sure. Thank you. Well, it's a long and winding story, but first of all, my name is Rusty Pickens. I'm an enrolled member of the Chickasaw Nation, Southeastern Oklahoma. that's where the Pickens last name comes from. It's Native American. And so the rusty side you'll have to ask my mom about. I don't know. She she wanted that. Jimmy Huber: Love it. Rusty Pickens: but I grew up in southeastern Oklahoma, there on what is our tribal headquarters area and the traditional boundaries of the Chickasaw Nation around Ada, Oklahoma. cut my teeth in enterprise IT there for our tribe. So PC building, servers, data centers, networking, voiceover IP for a while. and then I found myself with a fancy new bachelor's degree in computer science and six ish years of experience in the industry there from the tribe and was looking for a new gig and and found an internship with our office on Capitol Hill in DC. And man just kinda tagged out. So that's not an unusual story from where I'm from is like people will leave home and go to DC and, you know, go where the work is and that's where all the federal policymaking happens. So I was immersed in tribal political affairs there on the Hill for a couple of years, started volunteering for some political campaigns and Really liked this guy with a funny name out of Illinois. kind of upsetting things in two thousand and seven and got swept up and all that and went to work for the campaign, the Obama campaign, the campaign for change in two thousand and eight. It sounds like ancient history now, but I moved to Philadelphia, did six months there working on the campaign and then of course we won that election and earned the right to come back to govern. And I did a full eight years with him. So that's the public sector angle, Jimmy. It's it's just sort of in my DNA like that public service part of how can we as As citizens serve other citizens, and my specialty is technology, and that's what I grew up learning and have been coding forever. traditionally trained undergrad in computer science and all this experience, and now we're doing cloud and Salesforce and AI is everything all over the place right now, so there's always something new and interesting to learn. and happy to unpack any of that and talk about it as you need. Jimmy Huber: Yeah, no, that's great. I'm looking forward to it. so yeah, it it is very interesting because the federal government, I think, is technically like the world's largest corporation, basically, right? But it's just Rusty Pickens: Yeah, definitely. Jimmy Huber: the public sector. So of course they need their own IT support and everything to, you know, function and and do all the departments. I mean, it's it's just a monster, right? So yeah, how do you even approach something like that? I mean, infotech is a is an MSP, like our largest clients maybe 150 users, 170. Like it's a completely different. approach to tech. So are you like in a specific vertical or a a niche inside or like how how does that even start once you get into the, you know, being a contractor and working with the fits? Rusty Pickens: Yeah, sure. Well, I could kind of come at this from two different lenses. I think the first one is maybe just first impressions when I came into government. So, much like you, you know, we we had worked on this camp I had worked in tribal government, which was, you know, one one hundredth. The size. so I was familiar with that, and it's it's big and it's bureaucratic and it's slow, and you kind of want it to be that way, you know, and so that's the government angle. And then on the campaign, on the other hand, like we were working from coffee shops and on Wi-Fi hotspots and doing online fundraising and all this. So we were very far out on the bleeding edge back in those days. And so then you come into government, and man, that was one of the first things that surprised many of us techie political appointees in 2008 and nine was that if you wanted to get any work done, you had to go into this. big brutalist concrete building in downtown Washington DC and go into a cubicle with your little card and start up a Dell Optiplex and that was where your workstation was. You know, you you couldn't access email and you couldn't work from home. And some people had a Blackberry and that was a status symbol, you know, and they were the coolest guys around because they had they had worry. Jimmy Huber: I remember those days. Sh Rusty Pickens: Those Blackberry Pearls, man, were ubiquitous. But that Jimmy Huber: yeah, sure. Yep. Yep. Rusty Pickens: was the state of things. and the data centers were even worse. I mean, there were just data centers all over the place. And so front some of the first things that I jumped on helping tackle was let's consolidate these data centers and get them down to a manageable level. There was a lot of sprawl. the IT teams, I think to better answer your question, every agency has a CIO really, and they're the ones that manage all that stuff. But it's about 70-30, 80-20 of government civil service to 80 or 70 percent contractors, you know. And so they will let major contracts, Jimmy Huber: wow. That's the majority. Yeah. Rusty Pickens: yeah, for help desk, network equipment, cloud computing these days, you know, every every little team that you might have on your traditional dot-com side, you're gonna have that too, but it may be mostly out. outsourced and then a weird little quirk is that until recently, maybe the last decade or so, the political people were absent from IT mostly. And so during the Obama days we kinda made it a concerted effort to restart that and have more political policy and try to recruit people from California. And so the US Digital Service was a part of that start up. But they were still few and far between. You might have one or two of those people and hundreds of contractors around, you know. So it's really big, very slow moving, and most of it is still very enterprise IT, which is probably more like the world that you're working in. You know, these are big systems and they take years to maintain and they've got a lot of technical debt and you need a full team staff in them. And so That is a challenge I've been trying to work on for a while, which is how do we move it forward into the cloud? How do we adopt new technology? How do we work in agile software development in a more lean environment? And they're really big problems. So After eight years of doing that, it's like I looked around and we had moved the needle a lot and I'm very proud of a lot of that work that we've done, but there was still so much left to do. And honestly, that's why I founded 580 was let's start a company. I want to get back to my roots. The five eighty is the area code from my old hometown. And we're just Jimmy Huber: got it. Rusty Pickens: doing total remote, you know, software development for the federal government because there's still so much to do. We kind of just gotten tarted. Jimmy Huber: Yeah, I I can't imagine. I mean, we were talking a little bit earlier that, you know, every four years there's this question, right? Are we gonna get a new administration? Is, you know, somebody gonna get reelected? So how does that approach or are those are different problems, I think, than maybe some other industries, right? Obviously there's a lot of unknowns in every industry, but this is pretty consistent, like, hey, there's gonna be this question. And who knows? I mean, I I can't imagine the last, you know, couple years here with the Trump administration. I mean We don't mean to make it a political show, but yet that is a huge part of your consultancy, right? And your your industry. So how do you bridge that gap when there's probably different policies and and different perspectives here, you know, even every two years you got midterms. So Rusty Pickens: Yeah. Jimmy Huber: things can change all the time I would think. Rusty Pickens: Well, and it's just a fact of life. I mean, that's the way our government's structured and that's the way we want it to be structured. Like this all comes from the Constitution and that's the way that we're assembled, you know, and whether we like it or not, it's gonna be really hard to change it. So that's the way it is. I think, Jimmy Huber: Of course, yeah. Rusty Pickens: you know, to answer your question though, it is most of this is statutes and policy. And so, really most of the power in DC, though it seems a little weird, is not with the White House and the President. It should be with the Congress, and they have the money. They're the ones setting the budget. So, you know, they write the legal statutes, so many of the weirdest esoteric security requirements, a lot of the limitations on contract dollars and data centers and some of that stuff is actually written into appropriations law every year. Like we got to have it passed every year. So the budget is a Jimmy Huber: wow. Rusty Pickens: big thing. That's the main driver. And then really the executive branch, the president, will implement that stuff. And primarily they do that through the Office of Management and Budget and at the risk of Getting really wonky, that stuff is is really long time cycles, 10 years, 30 years, you know, until they change the law again. So when you're in there and you're working, whether you're a contractor or a civil servant or a political, those are the rules you've got to work by, right? And so that stuff is just fixed and there's really not anything changing it. And you know, when I when I think about, well, we're gonna have a president. Coming in every four years, that turnover is okay. And if we're doing the IT portion of this properly, you will really be able to build products that kind of endure regardless of that. So what I'm trying to do now in my own company and what we try to do as an administration was build the right thing to serve the right people. So every agency has a group of taxpayers that need services from them, the IRS, the VA, USCIS, I mean you name it, there are services that these agencies provide the American public that they've got to provide. So building those products is politically agnostic. It does not matter. You know, we might have good ideas from both sides. Some people might be on board with tech policy. Some parties might ignore it. It doesn't really matter who the president is or it ought not to. If we build those products right to do the job they need for the taxpayer or the veteran or the immigrant, that's how I measure success is like, is this thing being built properly? Did you bring your users in? Are you building the product they want? And is that gonna hang around for multiple administrations? And I feel like we did a pretty good job at some of that during the Obama days, and I'm really proud that some of those products are still existing and we're on like our third or fourth president now. There's been four or five transitions, like things just keep moving, but the product we built and the idea is still there and still growing beyond us, and I'm really proud of that. So I think that's the way you measure success in public sectors, is it's still hanging around and getting use out of it. Jimmy Huber: Yeah, I love that. So you're basically designing the car and then they're gonna decide where to drive and how fast to go. Rusty Pickens: Yes, exactly. I mean, every year we gotta submit our tax returns, right? Why can't we have a system to do that properly? you know, when a person separates from the US military, they become a veteran and they need to be onboarded to VA. That's just gonna keep happening. It doesn't matter who the president is. So we need to build really robust good systems now with cloud and AI that can address that stuff and do the a best job as possible for it. So Jimmy Huber: Yeah, no, I love that. So you you touched on it here. So let's let's get into that because you know, AI wasn't even a thing in the Obama administration. I think it it well it was, but it wasn't mainstream. No one was talking about it, no one cared. Like Yeah, yeah. Rusty Pickens: Right. Yeah, well not in this way, certainly. Jimmy Huber: So w what are you guys doing, I guess, because security's a big deal, you know, around AI. I've had many guests on, we've discussed that, you know, almost ad nauseum, but not in the context of the federal government, who, you know, there's CMMC, there's all these protections in Rusty Pickens: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Jimmy Huber: place already. But then you throw AI in the mix. I mean, are you guys using that to your advantage? Or are you like, Rusty Pickens: Mm-hmm. Jimmy Huber: this is gonna create some problems here before we get the frameworks in place? 'Cause I gotta believe the the laws and everything aren't caught up yet. I mean there's endless other podcasts that have discussed that as well. So yeah, w what's Rusty Pickens: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Jimmy Huber: your perspective on that? Rusty Pickens: Well, there th I think there's two parts to the question. So as technologists, we are actively exploring and embracing it and developing with it and testing it and using it all the time. So to varying degrees of success and trying to keep up with the news and the latest models and all that jazz. So that's really fun in my like day job work of doing the code and building the product. On the government side, you nailed it. Like we do not, you know, Congress is so slow to catch up on this stuff and they really need a lot more expert help in advising on how to write the laws that are gonna go into effect. that govern this stuff. And so it's been a little scattershot lately. That's going to take time to catch up. I think that's a weakness for us as a country, Jimmy. Like we need we need those things to be a little more closely aligned. And so on the one hand, The the mantra from California of move fast and break things, I really, really reject in the public sector. Like we don't want to do that, man. These things are big and they are slow because you want the lights of the government to be on when you reach for them, right? And so we don't want to be disruptive Jimmy Huber: Course. of course, yeah. Rusty Pickens: and breaking things. So I think there's a little bit of experimentation we can do, and some of that makes me nervous. Like I read about GSA inking really big contracts that give every civil servant, you know, an L. You know, that's kind of stuff makes me nervous. It's like, okay, well, what are Jimmy Huber: my word. Yeah. Rusty Pickens: they doing with that? What data are they putting in it? And so we got a lot of catching up to do in terms of governing how your average government system or civil servant will be using that stuff. And I think that is coming. maybe to bring this back to an optimistic lens is that while we're rolling out these cloud plot products and you know I do our company does Salesforce all day long every day. And so most of that is workflow. So taking a case record or a form input or a document that somebody's filled out and moving it through a workflow and streamlining and making that more efficient and optimizing it. And we do so much work around that. The government just loves forms and workflows. So that's I spend so much time on that. AI Jimmy Huber: Yeah. Rusty Pickens: will be wonderful for that. So plug it in, speed it up, and let's go. You know, there's no reason you should be waiting in a back Jimmy Huber: Yeah. Rusty Pickens: home for days and days to hear from a civil servant or a government agency on this. But it takes time to test that. So what I think we're seeing is can we implement these things thoughtfully within the security constraints we have that are probably 15 years old, and then do that in a way that also, you know, the phrases we always come back to is human in the loop or human above the loop, you know. And so either you are reviewing everything that goes out the agency door and putting human eyes on it, even if you've used AI to speed it up, that's one way to do it. The other is the exception base. the human above the loop of, hey, I've processed this and I'm gonna send a response boilerplate email, you know, Salesforce will kick that out. But if it looks weird or sensitive information or maybe, you know, it's a special handling case or something like that, let's get a human in here to look at it. And so those approaches seem really good. one of the products that we built for the White House that I got to be project manager over was the correspondence system for the president. So, you know, if you wanted to write Jimmy Huber: Nice. Rusty Pickens: a letter to the president, just you could be airing your grievances, you could be bragging on the good job they're doing, you could be stuck and needing help at the VA or an agency, like there's just tons of mail that come into the president of the United States. So That is such a wonderful use case for AI. Like put that stuff in there, triage it quickly, get a response teed up for it. And then we had a rule even before your AI to your point, Jimmy. Even the Obama days, the rule was every human a human's gotta look at every piece of mail before it goes out. And so think of how much faster we could do that at scale and at volume now with AI. And so there's some really interesting stuff here, but I think it's gonna be much slower to take hold. The the dot com and the nonprofits are gonna run circles around us for a while until public sector gets there and I think we're okay with that. I think we want it to be so Jimmy Huber: Yeah. Yeah, there's a definitely a balance and I love that that example. I mean, I've got a ten year old that's written the president several times and he's always gotten the letter back and I'm like, Rusty Pickens: Yeah. Like Jimmy Huber: I don't think it's actually him, but it is really cool and this is you know, he thought that was absolutely awesome. So yeah, expediting those kinds Rusty Pickens: Yeah. Yeah, it's great. I mean, Jimmy Huber: of things are great. Rusty Pickens: those are Priceless little touch points, you know, in in your experience with the government, you know, like getting that form letter back with the White House logo on it and the president's either digital signature or an auto pen or an actual signature. Could it be any mix of those things? That's Jimmy Huber: yeah. Rusty Pickens: that's a thing that's framed and put on family walls for years, you know. So it's got Jimmy Huber: Yeah. Rusty Pickens: to be done right and there's zero margin for error. And so AI is gonna be helpful at speeding that and weeding that, you know, the errors out, I think. Jimmy Huber: Yeah, no, I love that. So we touched on this a little bit, but you know, going into like what you're working on currently, it sounds like you know, AI is a slower roll here. So what are some of the projects that we might, you know, you mentioned Salesforce, which, you know, I'm sure Rusty Pickens: Mm-hmm. Jimmy Huber: my audience most of audience know that, but that's a a behemoth, right? a huge product. So what are some some things I guess that that would be interesting to talk about that you're currently working on maybe now and in the next few months that you've got in the hopper? Rusty Pickens: Yeah, sure thing. Well, so we are a certified Salesforce partner, so that's really exclusively the platform we work on. We dabble a little bit in AWS, but there are better people than us. We're a really small team. So I'm we're trying to be niche and experts in our lane and do a really good job, you know, on our little sliver of things. And so Salesforce is our chosen platform. we do lots of just modernization. So one of the latest projects that we finished up within a year now. was modernizing a workflow system that did grants management for tribes. They apply for millions and millions of dollars of money from housing and urban development. you will not be shocked to learn that that was run on spreadsheets and email. And so maybe let's put that Jimmy Huber: wow. Rusty Pickens: into an accessible modern website portal that has responsive web pages and maybe let's get it into a workflow engine. And so we built and platformed that onto Salesforce and turned it over to the production team to roll out. Yeah. Jimmy Huber: Yeah. You you're saying recently it was still in spreadsheets, like the nineties? Rusty Pickens: Yes, yes. It was a Microsoft access database. So yeah, yeah. So those are still out there. I mean Jimmy Huber: my goodness. Okay. All right. Rusty Pickens: they're mission critical. Yeah, they're all over the place. I mean, you Jimmy Huber: That's wild. Rusty Pickens: so many different database engines and things that are out there that are just, you know, if it's not broke, don't fix it. We're gonna use it till it drops. And so that one was close to dropping in my opinion. But yeah, well, we could do so Jimmy Huber: Or gets breached. Yeah. Holy smokes. Rusty Pickens: much better a job in the term in terms of the user experience for that if we built it right. So Jimmy Huber: Yeah. Rusty Pickens: automated email responses, escalation procedures, a nice Easy interface to be able to submit your application digitally, like you don't have to mail in a piece of paper or sign anything like that. That could all be part Jimmy Huber: yeah. Rusty Pickens: of the new portfolio. So we spend a lot of time on that stuff. that's a recent federal example. I have also been spending a lot of time on Indian country AI policy. So tribes are basically, we basically got 630 some odd mini federal governments out there that are tribal governments that are trying to work on this stuff, and there has been a lot of confusion. And a lot of disconnect out there. And so trying to help be a voice in that arena. There's a lot of people working on this. We had a wonderful convening back in Oklahoma in February for the Tribal Innovation Summit with the Cherokee Nation. And so lots of leadership being shown now. And I think we are working on standardizing some policies that many tribes can adopt. And so I'm working on a presentation about how do you take tribal government and put it into the cloud or AI in a responsible manner. And we're gonna roll that out at tribal net. your audience probably hasn't heard of Tribal Net but Tribalnet is a meeting of all the IT directors from the tribes and it's gonna be in Dallas in the last Jimmy Huber: nice. Rusty Pickens: week of September and so I'm gonna do a presentation and we'll have a presence there to talk about this stuff. But I think that's the next frontier for tribes is if you think the federal government has been reticent to adopt this, tribes are also reticent, like they don't know how to get started and we're struggling and budgets are different and Jimmy Huber: Sure, sure. Rusty Pickens: You know, think of think of Indian country like the United Nations. There's six hundred and something different governments out there and they're they're tiny Jimmy Huber: I can't imagine. Yeah. Rusty Pickens: to large. Some of don't have budget to apply to this stuff, you know, so we need a lot of help in that arena. I think that's gonna be fun. I'm enjoying that work. It's really it's interesting. Jimmy Huber: Yeah, yeah. I mean that's so y that's kind of a great segue into, you know, some of the business challenges that you may have, you know, that you've seen. You said working a lot with the tribes who are, I guess, some way independent, right? Like not all laws apply to them. Yeah, like you said, they're applying for funding and all that. while also serving, you know, the federal government. Those are two things that I would think sometimes are are kind of opposed, or there's there's you're in the middle of a bunch of conflict. But I love how you put it earlier where You said like it's it's more about what we're building, not necessarily the policies and the people. We're we're just there to, you know, help grease those skids and make it more efficient in the background. So Rusty Pickens: Yeah, to do this, yeah. Jimmy Huber: yeah. So how how do you I guess pull all that together? That's that's gotta come with its own set of struggles as as a small business yourself, right? I mean, obviously I'm in the private sector, but in the small, mid sized business. So I feel like Rusty Pickens: Yeah. Jimmy Huber: it's much more simplified. Like the projects and the problems that we see, at least the scope is a lot less. Rusty Pickens: Right. Jimmy Huber: Do you have any examples of of some winds or some some places where you breaking through? Rusty Pickens: Well, they are they're so subjective. So it's a really good question. I mean, on the federal side, think about every agency and then even the teams within those agencies, they could be really, special customers, let's say. Like they might have certain requirements, like that example I gave of the grants management app for Indian Country was really a niche thing. You know, nobody else would be doing that. so Jimmy Huber: Sure. Rusty Pickens: you you kind of have to put on your consultant and client services hat and dig in with them to really understand the problem that you're working on. And then I take a step into product management and how can we build this properly on Salesforce if that's what they've engaged us to do in the best manner. You know, so that's what we're doing is we're marrying the tech to the actual work workflow and the use cases that they will need. On the Indian countryside, Jimmy Huber: Got Rusty Pickens: similar, but a lot more disparate. And you know, so you said it well, like there are some laws that they can just ignore if they want to. They are sovereign, independent, you know, domestic nations in their own right. But they're going to have a government and they're going to have policies and procedures and those might be vastly different. So that's one of the first things we do when we work with tribes is sit down to understand what are the constraints of what we're trying to do here. But the product management and the platforms are generally really similar. It's just the it's getting to the heart of who is the customer and what are they trying to do and how do we mate and marry this technology up to those use cases in the right way. and it's a struggle. I think it takes a skill to like I I love the intersection of product ownership and platform ownership. talking to and being diplomatic with clients and users on one half and then translating that into engineering. So that's what gets me jazzed about this work. we do have a really small team so we're we're very boutique and growing slowly and I think that provides its own challenges as a business owner, you know, but I wouldn't change it. I don't want teams of hundreds of people, you know, there are plenty of big corporations Jimmy Huber: Totally. Rusty Pickens: that can do that stuff. So we're bringing high value reasonable cost and the expertise to go get an interesting thing done. And at least over my career, we don't really back down from a challenge. Like I've solved some of the hardest challenges you can have in government. And so let's just keep going with that. and it can be done if you put enough effort and emphasis and budget behind it and decision making, willpower and we can get it done. Jimmy Huber: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I mean, listening to you talk, it may be more similar to the private sector than you think. Those principles that you just said, Rusty Pickens: Yes. Yeah. Jimmy Huber: you could have said that for any small business the of Rusty Pickens: Yeah. Jimmy Huber: of what they need to do. So I think that's great. And the fact that you can, you know, serve a niche that most of us haven't even heard of, let alone be able to entertain, I think that's super valuable, you know, for you and your team to get that exposure and and your passion definitely comes through as well. I think that's that's such a key. You can tell if people are just punching a clock and checking boxes, Rusty Pickens: Yeah. Jimmy Huber: right? You gotta Rusty Pickens: Yeah. Jimmy Huber: be excited about what you're doing. and I think you you definitely that that shines through just listening to you talk for sure. Rusty Pickens: Yeah. Good, good. Well, that public service angle is important to me. Like, I mean, it's built into my family. Both my grandpa served in World War II, and I did it for eight years Jimmy Huber: nice. Rusty Pickens: as a political, you know, civilian civilian tech Jimmy Huber: Yeah. Rusty Pickens: geek. But it makes it so much more interesting when you can get up in the morning and think about the people who are using the product that you're building. And so that's what I really get excited about is how can we integrate the tech into the public service angle. So public interest technology is what we would call it. that wasn't always its name. Jimmy Huber: Yeah, love that. Love that. Well, I've I've really enjoyed talking to you today, Rusty. It's it's great to give another perspective to my audience about a a world that, you know, is is pretty unique but yet has the same desires and needs, you know. it's it's great that there's people serving them as well. If somebody wants to learn more or maybe connect with you guys or, you know, five eighty strategies, what's the best way, you know, to get a hold of you, Rusty, to maybe start a conversation. Rusty Pickens: sure thing. So we're easy to find. Five eighty strategies dot com, like the area code, five eight zero. go fill out a form there and let us know what you're working on. We're also gonna be at that conference, so we will be in Dallas in September on the twenty second through the twenty-fourth at Tribal Med. so I I don't know if your audience has any tribal members, but we'll be down there and working working Jimmy Huber: Yeah. Rusty Pickens: that. But we'd love to engage with folks and I love the way you framed it. I think it's all product management at the end of the day, Jimmy. We just change out the use cases and the sectors that we're in and so being good at product management is really important and the platforms are gonna grow with the technology, but the use cases are the things that are interesting and that's what's important. So Jimmy Huber: Yeah. Well, and I think that's only gonna get more and more important as AI is continually to propagate Rusty Pickens: Yeah. Jimmy Huber: and become more mainstream and normalized. I think those vehicles to keep the car analogy, it's only gonna go faster and further, right? So staying ahead of that is key. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, there's no more Fred Flintstone. you should you could just use cruise control or whatever it is. Yeah, Rusty Pickens: Yeah. Yes. And do a lot more of the work for you, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Right. that's a great analogy. Yes. Yep. I like it. Jimmy Huber: yeah, that's hilarious. So yeah, no, we'll put all that those links in the show notes. Honestly, I have no idea if there's tribal people listening, but if they are, we want them to be able to find you, Rusty, and and connect. and yeah, no, I appreciate our audience listening today. we'll see you next time. And Rusty, thanks so much for being here. Rusty Pickens: gosh, thanks for having me. Great conversation and happy to help with anything anybody's working on. Appreciate you, Jimmy. Jimmy Huber: You bet.