Ken Witt: I'm Kenneth Witt and welcome to Gun Dog Nation. Gun Dog Nation is much more than a podcast. It's a movement to build a community of people around the world that like to watch a well-trained dog do what it's bred to do. Also, we want to get our youth involved into the sport of gun dogs, whether it be hunting, sport or competition. We want to build a community of people united to preserve our gun dog heritage and be better gun dog owners. Tune into each weekly episode and learn about training, dog health, wellness. and nutrition. will also offer tips for hunting with dogs and for competition ⁓ hunt tests, field trials, and other dog sports that involve gundogs. Please go to our website gundognation.com and subscribe to our email list. We will keep you up for them weekly with podcasts that are coming out. We also will be providing newsletters with training tips and health tips for your dog. You can also go to patreon.com forward slash gundog nation and become a member. There's different levels of membership on there. Just go check that out. Also, we'd like to thank Sean Brock providing the music for this show, the introduction and the outro is Sean Brock. He played everything on there except the banjo by Scott Vestal and the bro by Jerry Douglas. Sean is a neighbor of mine from over in Harlan, Kentucky. I'm just crossing mountain in Highton, Kentucky and he's a super talented guy. But most of all, once you guys to check out the Kreekers. They are also from Highton, Kentucky and this is an up and coming bluegrass and country band and these guys are hot. They're all over TikTok and YouTube. You will hear these guys because in a year or so they will be on the radio. They are very talented. Their videos are going viral on the net. These boys are family. Two of the lead singers. One grew up with my daughters and the other one is my cousin's son. So he's family. Check them out, check out the Kreekers. Also, last but not least, if you want to buy a hat, koozie, t-shirt, or even gundog supplies, go to shopgundognation.com and you can purchase any of those items. Thank you so much for listening. It's a privilege to have people that want to put up with me talking about dogs all the time. I actually enjoy what I do and I'm so glad to have this opportunity and thank you. Hey everybody, it's Ken Thwip with the Gun Dog Nation podcast. Thank you all for checking in today. I am fresh off of a heart attack. I had a heart attack Thursday night and was in the hospital for two days and I got a stent put in and I feel like a new person. Had no idea that I even had a blockage, but it was pretty scary. So I'm back and I've been released to, know, I will actually work the full day Monday. But before I get started, I've got some guests up. I got to meet briefly in England, but I've known them much longer than they know who I am. And I'm going to get into that. First, this one do a really quick announcements. Thank you, my sponsors, Dog and Hunt Supply and Equipment Arkansas, Turtle Box, the Bluetooth speakers, waterproof speakers, Cable Gangs down in Louisiana who makes dog tie out systems made here in the US. And they're really heavy duty, high quality stuff that I was purchasing before I ever was sponsored by them. Of course, Purina Pro Plan. ⁓ Fauxlicious ⁓ Foods, the Vietnamese Ramen Noodles, Ducks Unlimited, and NASTA, the National Shoot to Retreat Association, and last but not least, Migra Ammunition. All right, Mr. Mrs. Halstead, sorry about making y'all wait on that. No, it's fine. Would y'all please introduce yourselves? I'm John Halstead. This is my wife, And I'm the better half, I'm Nina. His wife and wait for couple bank panels. Yeah, Skipton, North Yorkshire. Now the name of your kennels again, Mr. Hosted. Well, it's Brockle by. Yeah. OK. And ⁓ so, gosh, there's just so much I could talk to you about. So where do we begin? So you come, Mr. Hosted, you come from a long line of Labrador, retriever, breeders, trainers, trialers. Yeah. I mean, my father and mother was probably the most famous kennels in England for the last 40, 50, 60 years really, which was Drake's head kennels, you know, that was formed when I was just, I remember I would be like seven or eight year old and they were forming Drake's head kennels, it was starting then and then they were building their reputation, breeding dogs, running in trials. I mean, the father worked down the mine for a brief while and the mum used to show dogs at first. different types of dogs and then she started showing Labradors and my dad was doing a bit of part-time shooting and stuff like that and he started actually taking the Labradors out show labs and trying to pick stuff with them when they shot them and he realized it wasn't good enough for what he wants so it went from there and he got better dogs and better dogs eventually give up with the mining, started a boarding kennel, started training gun dogs and it just went from there and then they become They're probably the most famous trainers in England for a long time, won the Retriever Championships three times in a row. Oh yeah, won three. a row with one particular dog and he won it again and their mothers won the Championships as well. And they used to go all over the country in the world teaching and doing things like that and now he's about 80, think he's about 85. 85 and retired. this last six, seven years really. So they've given up. And we've been doing it now for about 40 years. And now I think I've got it just about worked out. It's time to slow down. ⁓ you all had a dog that won the IGL three times in a row? My father had a dog that won the, was called Drake's Head Breeze of ⁓ Drake's Head. And my dad, it's only ever been done once. He had this dog and he won the Retriever Championships three times in a row. And that was my father's dog. And then he won it with another dog called Rockland Pete, I think it was at Drake's head. And that one my father saw. Now, Miss Dana, you're also an old stranger to the dog world. What got you started in this business? Well John, ⁓ I mean my family were ⁓ they weren't really into the... My father liked to shoot, he always shot ⁓ but we only had pet dogs ⁓ and I just got into the dogs when I met John and I just used to go watching him training. I didn't realise dogs could even do that. Because our pet dog was just one of those, you you open the back door, he went out for a run and he came back when he'd had enough. So I was amazed when, you know, I watched John train and see what dogs were actually capable of doing. So... then you've run dogs yourself and had a water and field trial as a child. And two days ago. Yeah, so it all moved to me to be fair. And then, but now you try dogs yourself, correct? I don't now know I used to do but now I'm just because it's just me and John here running the kennels and everything I have to organize the diary and tell him where he's going what he's doing what dog he's running and know what which one he needs to be with. She runs the ship and I do the road. Now tell everyone you all met in another animal business not necessarily dog business how was that? Yeah well again when before we were called court and before we were married Nina was into the horse show jumping and I used to ride professional like show jumping and then we met that way really didn't we? and we both worked at the same yard didn't Yeah tried to do it ourselves when we left but it was just too expensive. I mean it was the same time as Michael Whittaker and John Whittaker and I all those show jumpers and different lads but it was very expensive so we did it for a while. We some good wins to Yeah we did, had some wins. I jumped at Wembley, I jumped for Britain in the horses. So then we slowly transitioned because it was too expensive and we moved into the dogs and just started doing that way, training for different people ⁓ and we went on from there. We served with an apprenticeship training and training shooting men's dogs and then I started running out dogs for certain clients in trials and then luckily enough ⁓ the Duchess of Devonshire, which then was the Lady Hardington, be 35 years ago, asked me to run dogs for her and I've been running dogs for her, well I run for a mother as well. I run for a mother which was Mrs. Hayward Lonsdale, Jean Hayward Lonsdale and then I run for the Duchess and then I run for a lady in Belgium called Cheri, Cheri Finlay. You know that was interesting to me, Mrs. Charles said like not this past year which in 25 but in 24 in November was my first year at the IGL. And I noticed a lady there that I thought, well someone finally told me was a Duchess and I'm a little ignorant to the royal hierarchy and I didn't really know what that was. Of course I didn't go talk to her or anything, but explain that to me a little bit because I'm still a little ignorant about how that works, if you don't mind. Well, yeah, mean, I'm 100 % sure myself, but basically Mrs. Heywood Lonsdale, which is the Duchess's mother, used to be best friends with the Queen and they used to go to London and stay with them and go out. They were married to the Lonsdale brothers once. Which was the Duke of Edinburgh's best friend, one of the Lonsdale's brother's, which was her husband. So they were very close and they knew the Royals and they'd stay with them and whenever we went down to Windsor she would go and stay with the Queen. So, you know, they are quite close that way. and we were lucky enough to get the job training for her. They've always been very good people, very nice to us and been very great to work with. Yeah, they've been very know, we formed a relationship and she'd listen to me and left me to it and we gave her results. I mean, I've been training for her for 35 years. Yeah, might be a little bit more, 37 or And I've qualified for the championships with her dogs for 34 of those years. So I've always got there. You know. And that's not easy, is it? No, no, it's certainly not easy. When you get more experience, it gets easier, but it's never easy because there's always the worry of getting it right on the day. know, I said to, I'll tell you a story. Years and years ago, we were sat at a table at one of the championships and there was a man, famous man called Alan Rangetree. If you ever look back in the books, you'll see him. And he was sat at this dinner table and he was there and he was a big Irish man said, I've qualified for the championships. He said, I think it was something like 16 times, didn't you? 16 times. And I'm thinking, all right, all right. And I thought, well, I've already done it something like 12 or something then, hadn't I? So I thought, I want to beat that. And I'm still going now and I'm up to my 34th. This year, I want to get the record, which will be 35 years in a row. Oh, wow. Has anyone else ever done that? No, no, don't. think they've qualified maybe. Maybe 20. Nobody's ever... I don't No, you haven't missed a year. No, I don't know who's done it though. Well, think Alan Mountain got to 20. But nobody's... Not that I can find in any history books or anything. Nobody's ever done that. Now, just for the listeners, and I know you all know this, and correct me if I misstate this, for the listeners, IGL is the International Gundog League, which is a society that holds... And this is my American way looking at it. It's like the Super Bowl of dog trials in the United Kingdom. that be correct? Yeah. It's high. She can't get it high. I always refer to that. It's the Olympics of the dog world for us. Yes. That's that's how I look at it. And so it's competitive. And, you know, I think the last two years it's been high fifties, low sixties on the entries. of dogs. Yeah, qualifiers, yeah. Again, the first, it's building up each year and that's what's getting harder about it. The first championships I run in, there was 28 dogs. Qualified, Now, the last championships I run in, there was 68. So in my time alone, it's gone from 28 to 68. And it shows how much it's grown in that time. So that's very competitive. You know, I, just the last two years that I've been there, you know, really enjoyed it, first of all, but It's so neat to see dogs. know, like, for example, y'all, we have, there's American beliefs that, you know, that maybe the British dogs are softer. They can't do, they can't do these long retreats stuff like American dogs. And I've told people you need to go watch one of their field trials. And because what they do is very impressive. it, you know, and I've seen America, I compete in American hunt tests. I don't do that. But it's, it's, very, very difficult. I think this championship will have very hard, there's some good long trees, the weather conditions. You need the elements of luck obviously at the championships, but yeah it is hard because the thing is that it's what we call as natural as you can get it. You might be going to pick a bird up to 200 plus yards away, but there might be game in between that they've got to ignore and get through and as efficiently as possible and these are what the problems is and then when they get to where the game is by watching your dog and reading your dog, you've got to work out in a few seconds, do I let it go and it's telling me it's on a runner or do I hold it there because it's bad scent and I make him stay there and work at it and worked it till he digs it out. And this is all happening very fast and under pressure. And this is what's hard. So it's not staged managed. It's as natural as we can get. And that's what the hard bit is. So it's an ever moving game. I do like that. You just. Mr. Halston, said something that just hit me. It is very natural. It's not a stage, you know, like some of our systems are, some of our hunt tests and stuff are. But yeah, it's a real hunt and I like that. Y'all really flushing birds, shooting birds and the dogs are retrieving them. Yeah. It's funny. I have, just so I keep everybody No, I'm just gonna say I have British dogs and American dogs. So I'm right in the middle. But anyway. Yeah, you see in our rules, it says in our rules, it's got to be as near to a natural shooting day as possible. And that's what we've got to try and keep in focus, Jim. I like that. You know, one of the things I want to talk to you about, and we briefly spoke about it before we started, it always intrigued me when I started, I'm a nerd, I like to study. When I get into something, I just go, what I call whole hog, you know, I get all into it. And when I got into labs, started studying the history of labs and read books and then I stumbled upon a YouTube video of the Queen back in the 70s, the late Queen, getting a field trial in the 70s, a black and white, but you actually been to field trials and events that she's attending, correct? ⁓ yeah. Yeah. I mean, many times, know, when, when we run like say a dog for Mrs. Heywood Lonsdale, the Duchess's mother, and she knew it was being held at Windsor or Sandringham, Mrs. Awood Lonsdale would already go and stay with the Queen and then she'd find out what number I was on and often I'd be going into line and the convoy of Range Rovers would come, park up behind it, maybe I was number 10 or 12 or 15 or whatever, they'd come, pull up, the line would be held, they'd all get out, they'd go out the side of me with the bodyguards and all this and I'd be thinking, ⁓ I hope this dog does as well as told. ⁓ And then, and then they're like, okay, Lion, go on. And we'd set off walking, they'd shoot a bird. It might be my retrieve or somebody else's. I'd pick it or they would. Then we'd have a few more retrieves and then they'd watch a few more dogs, maybe for an hour or so. Then they'd get back in the cars and go off. And then they'd know what time I was coming back into Lion and they'd come again. So yeah, she'd often come. And if you... went at night, they'd often have a cocktail party and you'd go to the cocktail party and the Queen were very nice, they would come round and meet everybody individually and shake their hands but because Mrs Heywood Lonsdale was a good friend, she was always, I'd always get a of privilege and get dragged over quickly. So yeah, they were a lovely family to work for and the Queen was always nice and we've met her many times and done demonstrations when she's come up this way and stayed with the Duchess. And she did have an absolute genuine look at the Oh yeah. I mean, I think we had two else, three dogs, which wasn't good enough for what we wanted. And the Duchess would give them a queen and she used to have them. She actually used to go out to the queen and work her own dogs on the field and pick up with them regular. Wow. And she had her own, you know, two, correct? Like her own? Yeah. Yeah. When I very first started, used to be a man called Bill Meldrum and he used to run the Queen's dogs. So I've run with them many times when he was running them dogs. It was towards the end of his career and more of the start of my career. So then we haven't seen the Sandringham dogs now for a good 30 years, have we? Yeah, they've slowed off. They've slowed off now. Nobody really runs them anymore now. do you all, is training in the kennel your full-time business? Do you all have day jobs? No, that's it, full-time. I run the training, I do all the training and the teaching Nina used to. Now Nina keeps the ship in the straight line and she does all behind the scenes, the book work and runs the HGA, the Holsteads Gundog Academy, the puppies and the breeding and anything like that. So ⁓ it's a partnership, you know, and you know how it works behind every good man. They say there's a better woman and I can't disagree with that because she's here. So yeah, so we, you know. there's ups and downs, there's a lot of stressors when it's not working and you know, there've been good times and bad times, but yeah, we've been pulled together for a long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. It's not easy. People think it's easy. Oh, it's not easy, not easy. Well, I think I know the answer this, but I want to make sure I'm correct. You all have kids, correct? Yeah, we have grandchildren now. Are they in the... dog training world because I think you had a son there that was competing or am I mistaken? Oh, that's Max. That's my grandson. And he likes, he likes taking part and yeah, he does like going out with the dogs and he run at chats within a little competition. It's changed such a lot as the sport since I started. And I would say it's, it's, it's difficult now, I would say to form a sole living at training. I've done it through just running dogs for competitions. for people. don't think there's anybody else apart from David Liss, it really does that doesn't Not really I don't think. You know where years ago there used to be a lot of big estates and they'd have their own personal dog trainer. Where them estates now have got less, there's a lot of people going competitions but they probably have a board in kennels or a business what can sustain them going to field trials. But there's very few actually make a living out of running dogs just for people which I've done for 30 odd years, 40 years. But no, our son, has his own dog food company, he? He owns the Holstead dog food. Our daughter, she's got her own beauty business. And then the two grandchildren, Max, that's got his dog and he comes picking up his nine. He's enjoys it. He's a of a dry weather trainer at the moment, isn't he? And the granddaughter, Evie, she's a bit... She's not just... She's better with a clipboard organising. Yeah, she likes it. That's what I Organisation. That's it. Well, tell me about the dog food company. I didn't know that. Yeah, so, well, it's... I don't really know how he got into it. He just decided it's something he'd like to do. So he set up his own dog food company, Halstead Foods, and he's been working away for last six or seven years. It's growing, it's difficult, it's not easy. Yeah, it's very competitive. But yeah, we feed our dogs on it, we like it. It does the job. Yeah, it's good. That's interesting. Hello, this is Kenneth the Whip with the Gun Dog Nation podcast and we're proud to announce that we are now partnered with Ducks Unlimited. Since 1937, Ducks Unlimited has been on a mission protecting the wetlands that waterfowl call home. the northern breeding grounds to the southern wintering havens. Thanks to the effort of passionate volunteers and supporters, Ducks Unlimited has conserved millions of acres. But the truth is, the work isn't done. Come be part of the next million-acre year. Visit ducks.org forward slash volunteer today and join a team making a real difference. Because when it comes to protecting our continent's waterfowl, that's what Ducks Unlimited does. Hello, this is Kenneth Wipp with the Gun Dog Nation podcast. We are so proud to be sponsored by Dog and Hunt Supply and Equipment Arkansas. Many of you know Summer Reynolds and she runs the best dog supply store in the United States. I've been there, I buy from her. She has everything you can imagine. Her store and her workers, they are Garmin experts. Matter of fact, Summer herself can work on your Garmin collars. She's also a lifelong hunter, a generational hunter. She owns hunting dogs. She doesn't just sell dog equipment. She backs it up. She's the real deal. And actually, I think she actually might own more dogs than I do. Whether you hunt coon, rabbit, hogs, predators, or your turkey hunter, you name it, they have supplies there for you. She has Sitka, Filson, Hayboa, outdoors, all kinds of clothing, boots, boat boots, deck boots, hunting boots, you name it, they have it. It's dogandhunt.com. Check out Summer Rentals. They're on TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook. and we are so proud to be sponsored by them. I'm gonna change gears just a little bit. And this is always a touchy subject, I think sometimes, but what's the political situation in the United Kingdom about hunting and field trials? It seemed to me as an outsider that it's, you know, that we had to kind of be secretive about where we were. Is that, was I correct? Is that what was? Yeah, I think they're always kept skeptical and worried. They do play it down. I mean, the only time we really ever get what we call aunties or any trouble is on the famous grouse on the 12th and the early stages, especially if you have a name like the Duchess of Devonshire or the Duke of Edinburgh's or anybody like that with a name who has a moor. They tend to target that to get it on telly. We've never really, the only trials we've ever had a problem as. been on on the early grouse trials and the grouse wars. Apart from that, we haven't had any trouble at all on any trial I've ever been to. But because it's that type of sport and it's the times we're living, they do try and keep it low key as they can, not to draw attention to itself just in case. Yeah. And I understand that. We're there to have a good time, you know? That's right. And watch these dogs do what they're bred for. Yeah. Mr. Halstead, explain to me, both of y'all, can I answer this question for me, ⁓ but what are the requirements for gun ownership there for hunting? Basically, for gun ownership, you've just got to be of sound mind and body. You've got to have a doctor or a medical check to say everything's okay there. It's not difficult to in It's more difficult to get a rifle and things like that because you generally have to have your own land or shore land you've got to actually be able to shoot it on. But no, I would say it's quite relaxed really. But you can lose your license. thing about you, you've got to be so worried about if you got into trouble in so much as a fight, even though it's not your fault and all the gawking in any way. they can remove your rifles even though it might not be your fault. So you've got to be careful that way. know different people what's got into altercations and not stood up for themselves because they're frightened of losing the rifle or the shotgun. So you've got to be careful that way. But no, it's not particularly difficult as long as you're sensible. And then as far as buying ammunition, is that a process too, like for buying shotgun shells? Yeah, you've got to your license and everything you buy will be put down on your license so they know what quantity you have and if it's a rifle you're only allowed a certain amount. ⁓ Generally, you know, for rifles different calibres of rifles so everything's signed for, everything's, you know, got to be... It's all logged isn't It's all logged and followed and then when they come to check your ammunition if you've more than that then they'd want to know why, how and what for. and if you know if you're only knowing more than what you should have they can say well we don't feel you using this in a soul either you know you see it or it'll be began to vote so you have a the they're all care they're not they're not particularly bad although they have never found it particularly bad is is hunting only on private grounds there there's no public hunting land is that and yes but you get it would be on the license in so much as they'll be Northwest water which is a ⁓ upper moorlands which the Northwest waters catch water for what they get. Now they do have that and people would rent that ground off them even though they don't own it themselves but there's no there is certain little bits and mores there's one over at Haworth which is like a what they call a common moor and it's in the old rites that villagers are allowed to actually shoot on that moor between certain months so there is certain easements in certain places but the majority of it is privately owned. land ⁓ and either leased out to people who rent it and turn it into a commercial shoot or a farmer who has it and he rents it out to people for a shoot or they have their own personal shoot on it. Do you feel like the sport of hunting is growing in the United Kingdom or you feel that it's getting smaller as far as the of people that do it? I would say it's staying the same, it's growing if anything because there's no way you can get now is there? Every bit of land's like taken up. Every bit of land's taken up I mean. don't think there's as many young shots coming into it. No well I think it's a changing world that's the thing is like you know kids today even my grandson without taking him out rifle air rifle shooting and screwing and stuff like that the modern child sits with a computer and plays on that so it's a different world I mean when we were children We either went ferreting, out with our lurchers, out with the stereos, out with air rifles or catapults or fishing. that were it. You occupied yourself that way. So it's a different world now. And it's just through nobody's fault. just how things progress, isn't it? It change. You know, I think it's the same here too. You know, I think we've experienced the same issues. ⁓ I'm going ask that same question kind of related to the dog competition world. Do you feel like that there's fresh blood, new people coming in to the retriever world as far as field trials and stuff or ⁓ do you see any growth? There's always fresh blood trying to come in, but the trouble is because it's such an expensive sport. It's never been like a what you could class really a working man's sport, even though a working man can go and do it, because to go to a two day field trial for us, the average price I would say is between five and seven hundred pounds. That's what it will work out at. Because what you've got to think of is it might cost, it might be in Scotland, so it's going to cost me probably one hundred and fifty pound each way in the fuel. Not wearing tail in your car, that one hundred and fifty pound in your car. I'll be there for two days. That's going to probably cost me another 250 pounds. So that you're straight into like nearly 500 pounds there. You've got your entry fee, which will be about between 70 and a hundred pounds. know, then then these other things what come into it if you've got to take time off work. You know, so all these things add up. So it is an expensive sport. Now, there's nothing to say. It is open to all if you wanted to do it. It's just whether you afford it. But like can a postman afford to spend £700 going away to a trial what he probably won't do well at? It's a lot of money. So yes, I mean, we do get one or two, I mean, we had a lad come not so long ago and they all want to get into it. And you try and give them tips and point out the pitfalls and what to look for. But I would say now where years ago, a lot of the money used to come. from people like I train for, the Duchess and the Hukes and this now, is now coming from abroad I would say. So it's changed from the money coming from me, it's now coming from abroad I would say, more from your side of the water, people paying people like me sell to rum dogs in competition, where years ago it used to be all people in this country paying for people to rum dogs. So it is changing. But I think that's why you get a lot of the older generation running dogs because you're people that are retired from work. And they can afford it. Yeah. You know, the wife's husband runs a successful business and she'll have a couple of dogs and go off trialling and it's all paid for sponsored by her husband, isn't it? You're getting a few new coming to it, but I think the trouble is they realise that It is expensive. Yeah. So it's difficult to do it. It's tough. The standards. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. It's not as tough as it used to be. No, maybe not. But it's, you know, there's still a standard. Yeah. And you know, I think that's even the case here, you know, ⁓ like hunt test, we have hunt test and then field trials. And the difference is, you know, the field trial, it's a Winner takes all you know or 1st, 2nd, 3rd place in the hunt test. As long as you pass the standard. You get a pass. Yeah, yeah, so. You seem to see more regular folks there, but in that field trial world and then we have something called the Super Retriever series. ⁓ You know those dogs take so much training, you know 345 years of training. ⁓ yeah, yeah, yeah, and there's a few amateurs that can do that, but it's mostly professional trainers. In US, the average cost, I would say, for a professional trainer at that level is anywhere from $1,000 to $1,200 a month. So think a month a year and four or five years of training, it ranges. I know. I mean, we often used to say to make a field trial champion up, if you knew what you were doing, it would cost you a minimum of £5,000 plus. Back then, yeah. Back then. you know on the road and doing all your training that's not putting your time into the dog that's just what it's going to cost you ⁓ just feeds and fuel just feed and and that it cost you a lot more now but it used to say back then well that's not your time that's just your feed buying your puppy the mount the road i mean i know some people that spent i mean like we're not mentioning any names spent ten thousand pounds just on fuel on the on the trialling circuit and didn't do in a season and didn't do very good Yeah, you know, so I mean, if I go to five trials, I want to be having a win or three awards, you know. Now, Mr. Miss Halston, do you all have local retriever clubs where people go and gather and train and also compete over there? Yeah, they do. There are local retriever clubs to us that hold training sessions throughout the summer months. all on the dummies and stuff aren't they? Yeah they're good for the lucky learners, I've never really ever gone to them but yeah mean a lot of clubs in different areas will try and encourage new people or people who want to go or don't have the ground to go on so they'll go to those local clubs to get the facilities where they can go on that ground or get in company and maybe pick up a few tips and I suppose that's what keeps the whole sport going. Now a lot of people like myself, I have my own land and I know friends and I go on their land. So yeah, they do play a good part in the local clubs at keeping the sport going. they have the working test. And they have the working test. Someone trial lines on field trial lines and some just on what we call Safari. And they run through the summer months to keep the interest up. Michelle, so I'm going ask you a question. What was the most important thing about dog training that you learned from your father? ⁓ I didn't know. Well, I know. I didn't learn anything from did. From my dad. Because he always said. He's told me three or four things, to be fair. He said, you'll know when you do him well, didn't they? Yeah. Because nobody will like you, which was one of them. He said, dog training is like getting to top of a tree. There is lots of different branches. You've got to find your own. which was another good one. And another one was, in this sport you will have to be like a rubber ball. You will just have to keep bouncing back and bouncing back, which is true. So I never trained with my father, because we're always typical father-son rowing, but what it did, it forced me to learn my own way. I watched him and I saw him train, even though I didn't train with him at the time. And then I formed my own style because it's like my dad, when he was starting out in his career, He had to be a pioneer and find ways and people followed him. And then I've done the same. I've devised my own ways, made lots of mistakes. mean, I've probably trained... Biggest percentage of people what was at this championships have been to me at some point, they? You know, because when you're a trainer, they all like someone to come to, to put right. When you're a leader, I've nobody to go to. I've got to find the path and invent ways. Now I've made lots of mistakes. and I've learned lots about dogs and how the dogs work and why they do this and then I do try and pass that on that's what the ASG is you know but you know you have to be an inventor to be a good dog trainer and also you have to be good at calling yourself not just your dog saying where's my weaknesses why is why am I getting this wrong well I'm missing here so there's lots of it's very technical dog training when you get into it but some people look at it and they don't understand why things go wrong so they just go out training. They go squat throwing dumb. They just go, I'm not a dog trainer, I don't call myself a dog trainer, I call myself a dog builder. Because I find a dog and I take each little part and I build that part and if he's weak in that part I take that part out, put this part in. It's not the easiest away but if you do it you'll get a lot more success rate. If I get ten dogs I will probably get between I would say seven or eight out of them. where most people if get 10 dogs they might get one maybe two out of them. I want to put Miss Nina on the spot. What do you think, what's the one, if you could say one thing, maybe there's a couple things, but what do you think makes your husband successful? He doesn't settle for second place. ⁓ Winners don't doubt and doubters don't win. He's the winner. Second place doesn't mean nothing to him. You have to be a little bit obsessed. have to be a bit selfish. You have to be a bit obsessed and don't realise it. And like she used to say years ago, mean, why she's still with me, I don't know, because it does put a lot of stress and I'm not going out with these dogs and she'll be, God, you've been out with him. I said, I know, but I've got to get it right. And you've got to be a little bit obsessed, but you've got to also know when to say enough's enough, you know, because you can overtrain and you can undertrain. It's finding the balance. You know, so yeah, I mean it is hard and you've got to, you know, it is confusing at times but you've got to a No two dogs are the same, they? They're all different. I mean, I would say my first 10 years I got an idea about dogs. The second 10 years I started to get a very good idea. Then after that and after 40 years I think I've got, I say now, I do feel I have it sussed. But it's a bit too late now. I could have done without 30 years ago. Well, Mr. Hossett, after 40 years, do you still find yourself trying new things? you? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think that's probably what makes you successful. Well, the thing is that I've changed things. Things I did 20 and 30 years ago, I've just found slightly better ways. And I understand dogs more. than what I did now and it's no fault of mine or anybody else's because sometimes you've got to go down that road quite a while before you grasp it. know, now I can pass that knowledge on. It's like somebody today, I teaching them today and the new way I'd explain it, said, and it's my problem, I'm a very layman and I just say it as it is, don't And I said, it's like a skateboard, right? I'm teaching you how to ride a skateboard, right? But I can't teach you how to balance. The balance part you have to learn yourself and that's going to come with falling off, getting back up, falling off, getting back up. So I can teach you the riding of the skateboard but I can't teach you how to balance. And the touch and feel and timing is probably the most critical part in dogs. We're trying to communicate with an animal what we can't talk to. Okay, so we've got to talk to it in terms it can understand. and I see lots of people that come training and a lot of it, biggest percentage is confusion between the handler and the dog and how to try and point that out and show them is sometimes, ⁓ god I can see it now but you can't see it until it's shown or pointed out, you know so it is quite technical it takes me, I mean I've had a lot of people come here for lessons over here and some stayed quite a while it takes, I would say it takes me a minimum of somebody coming twice a week a minimum of five years to give them a good foundation. Hey, it's Kenneth Whip with the Gundog Nation podcast and I'm very proud to have as a new sponsor Cable Gangs. That's spelled G-A-N-G-Z. Brendan Landry at Cable Gangs has developed, in my opinion, and I'm a customer, the best tie-out systems on the market. 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Hey, it's Kenneth Witt with the Gundog Nation podcast and we are so proud to be partnered with the National Shoot to Retrieve Association, also known as Nastra. Nastra has a common love for producing the best bird dogs possible. It's a great community that builds and bonds everlasting friendships. I've actually got to meet a lot of the Nastra members and who's taken me hunting and some other grouse hunting and stuff in different places. So I can honestly say I'm a member. and I'm proud to be partnered with them. Nassar hosts national and regional field trials that emphasize the working ability of bird dogs. They have been around for over 50 years. There's a reason that Nassar has been around that long. Please check them out at www.nstra.org and belong and support your local Nassar club. They do have national and regional events and it's a good place to help learn to be a better dog trainer, a better dog owner, and to compete with your bird dog. Thank you. I like that. Now, I think, well, let me ask you, I think I know the answer, but I'm not 100 % sure. You all are not allowed, or maybe it's not even legal to have electric collars, shock collars. No, I don't think it's illegal yet. I think it is in Wales. People don't really use them. I mean, I always think about it and how it works. I work on the same principle, okay, that what I teach a dog is when I shout and go, something's wrong, alright, when I praise it's right, positive negative. I would imagine, I'm no expert with the electric collar, the e-collar, but I would, you basically doing the same method, is basically when it does something wrong, it gets a nick or whatever they call it, and when it does right, good lad, good lad. So it's same, but I can get the same sort of effect with my voice, and then it's just took to bigger and bigger and bigger ranges. So yeah, you very, I mean, you do see odd pet people and maybe using them. and odd lads on shoots and that, but you never see them around trial and circuit because the trouble is in the rules we're not allowed any collars of any sort on the dog and that is the bit what they would find hard and I think if the kennel cob knew they were being used more to be stamped out very quickly. I'm not against them, I'd like to understand and see how they work. I always said that I think yeah, I think they're a good thing if you... but it should maybe be under license. So if you've had an education and taught how to use them, it's like, then why not if the people understand them? True, I agree. You know, I actually went to a dog training school called Napopo. It's kind of, it's a lot, use a lot for protection dog training, but it can be used in all dog training. ⁓ Anyway, we had to learn, we had to put a collar on. Yeah. To it yourself. To respect it. Yeah, and I think that's great. now, Miss Dana, you mentioned, you think that, do you say Wales, in Wales they may not have be allowed? I'm pretty sure in Wales they were banned. And there's been talk about banning them, hasn't there? Yeah, yeah. it for a ban. I think they still use them on some of the foxhounds and such, don't I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. But no, think the Kennel Club are pushing it, so. One of the things that we share in beliefs, I think, is, you know, I tell everybody I'm a traditionalist. ⁓ I'm a black lab guy. I'm going to make people mad on this podcast in the States, but I'm a black lab or a yellow lab guy, which can also be red. ⁓ And I noticed both times I've been, you know, in the United Kingdom watching the IGL, I did not see a chocolate lab. No. There has been the odd one or two in the championship. ⁓ yeah, there's been one or two. We trained a few quite a few years ago. Yeah, John trained that you actually trained the first ever chocolate Labrador that won a trial in England. And then there was a man called Jed Lisa, who won a good nice chocolate in the championship. The problem going back a few years when they were doing the chocolates, they always carried the short jeans, so it was like how they moved and they didn't move just as flowingly. But now over years odd people's kept doing it and kept doing it and they are getting more and more like it. I've actually got a chocolate in at the moment of my own which is only about eight months. And he's flying out on stuff and doing quite nice. And he does move like a working Labrador. So they will come, they will come in the future. So it will come. It's just There's never been a chocolate field trial champion. Yet. yet. I said to John, you set yourself these goals in life and I said now before you retire, if anyone can do it, you can do it. So this one that we've got out there, I mean, it's a long way to go. just wondering who's setting the goals. No, I mean, it will be a great one to finish, John. admit. You know, I've seen some here that are very successful, but I just noticed there I didn't. see any. I saw some goldens but I just... John you probably know the history of much much better than I do. How did the chocolate lab come about? Do you know? Well I think it's like everything it's just trends. mean the black Labrador, I mean a chocolate years ago you'd have never sold it to a shooting estate, a duke or a duchess or any shooting man. It was a traditional it was that mainly black. When I started it was mainly black Labradors. If you had a yellow really you wouldn't just struggle to get rid wouldn't you? Then the yellows started sneaking in and you got a few, then the fox reds, I think people are always looking for an angle where a bit of money can be made. So as time went on, actually now the yellows are very strong aren't And it must be some good genes coming through because they go back to certain dogs so the yellows got stronger and stronger. And then one or two people, they always want like certain novelties so they start doing a chocolate and it goes from there. and it's like the golden retrievers they're I mean I've seen some good ones I've seen a lot of bad ones like everything but I would say the market is always going to be stronger for the black lab and the yellow lab than them so you know you're always going to get it that way you would get studs for a good chocolate Labrador but if you had a good black one I think you'll always get a lot more for it. is tradition. The money dictates the way the market goes it always seems to follow that I don't know if you all had these yet in the UK, we have, I see these over here now, Silver Labs. Yeah, that's already, we've no one or two that's bought them just to try and do that. Yeah, that's it. That's the problem. But I think what you've got to be careful of, we don't muck the breed up and start crossing away each other and getting all sorts. I think, you know, there's no reason to try and interbreed these different dogs and that. It's worked for years. Let's just stick with it and keep it going. You know, there's chocolates, there's blacks, there's yellows, and there's golden retrievers and just keep going down that road. I don't see why. It's always money. If you're not careful, money can spoil the sport sometimes. Now, I was going to ask you, how young do you like to start working with a pup? Oh, I'll start at what, three months? Yeah. Three months. Basically all I'll do, I mean, Like I've always said, it's like a blueprint to what I do with my dogs. Three, well, even before, as puppies, they're coming out at kennel, they're all put out, as you split them up. About 10 weeks. 10 weeks, we'll split them all individual kennels. And then it'll be taken out on the field, throw a few balls, see how keen it is or not. If it's keen, then we'll start dropping balls, little bits of memories. And it's not so much training, even up to the age of six months. It's more guidance. and seeing what its natural potential is. If it's not very good on its memories, then up to the age of that we're strengthening memories. If it's good on its memories but weak on its marking, we're mainly working on it marking more than, but you're basically finding out its natural ability up to that age and guiding it the way you want up to about six to seven months before you start the serious training. So we start quite young and they'll go out twice a week, three times a week, something like that. And the retrieving. On the retrieving, yeah. And it's mainly not going around walking, smelling, learning bad habits. It comes out, it trains, it goes back in. We channel the enthusiasm the way we want to go. And if it's not showing enthusiasm at an early age, we will let them go, don't we? Because we know it's a long road. We want high drive, but we don't want stupidity. It's a fine line. You know, so it's a balancing act. And if the dog won't let me harness him, and calm him down. The thing about our sport is he's got to be very calm, very drivey, and be able to switch it on and off like that. Not just very keen all the time. He needs to be able to switch it off and switch it on. know? And one of the traits that I've kind of learned about, you know, the British style of training is your dogs need to be quiet, right? They can't be whining and carrying on while they're sitting. I guess you all call it the peg. at the pig. well yeah any noises squeaking whining comes out it's a no-no because to me that is again he can't contain himself so that's telling me how his mind's working you know so it's teaching him. Now sometimes when you train young dogs because they don't understand certain dogs will then do that a little bit you deter them and show them that you don't want that if they can't get past that that's it you know. But yeah, that's why anything with noises we don't breed off, we tend to just breed off the ones that are quiet and hopefully that passes on. But certain methods of training can increase your chances of getting it and certain methods of training can decrease any chance of getting it. I mean, I do get people on my HGA say, oh, I've got this dog and it's a really hard drive going really well, but he does make a noise. And I'll say, well, it will because you've got him to hard drive. You've got to teach him how to do it first. under control and control his mind and then bring him to enjoy it later. Don't get him to hard drive or she'll just lose control. I like that. I'm going to write that down. At what point do y'all feel when a dog's reached a certain point, obviously, you know that, this could be my next field trial champion. Yeah. Yeah. When does that usually happen? I know it's probably different dogs, but what things are you looking forward to you realize, hey, this dog, I think is gonna be the real deal. Well, you get a feeling as you're going on through its training, in so much as the more advanced you go and get, you're going up different stages and different levels that it keeps giving you things back in his work he does. Now, some dogs are getting things wrong through enthusiastic, they're trying too hard. Some dogs are doing it more for them than you and you're battling constantly trying to learn them to control this enthusiasm so it's trying to get the feel for what type of dog is he? Is he all drive and no brains? Is he not enough drive and overthinks everything? You know, so the best dog in the... some of the best dogs are the dogs what try and use you to get what they want. Okay, but then you've got to be careful. You don't let them use you too much. Interesting. So, you know, and the ones you're trying to, you don't want them to question you too much. We want his natural ability, but only when we want him to use it, which is hard to do. So as generally I would say around 15 months, 16, 17 months, you know, you've probably got a trial winner. good enough to win trials. Some you will know you've got a champion coming on. But I would say by two year old, you'll know whether it's gonna be a good one. Yeah, average. Or average. I mean, I've some dogs now and they get to that age and have won trials and I think, yeah, it's okay. But he's just not got the X factor. He's just not got that little bit more and that comes with experience and feeling. Then other dogs like Otto, the one I've got at the moment. And he was... It was special right from the start and so were songs weren't it? The two good dogs I've got at the moment, they wasn't flashy, they wasn't over-rushy, but whatever they did, they learned it, they used more brain than brawn. So they were very clever dogs. Some of the harder dogs to drain can make the better dogs at the end. ⁓ Some of the black and white, I get the different types of dogs, you get a black and white dog. He either does it right or he does it wrong. So he's either getting told off or getting It's plain to see, isn't it? It's plain to see. Everybody can do that. I like the grey dogs because some of them you're thinking, well, come on, but is he doing it slow because he's thinking? Is he doing it the way, you know, he's overthinking things and trying to do it right. And he doesn't rush. He's trying to pick it with brains rather than brawn. So you get lots of this is where it gets more and more technical and learning the dog psychology side of it. Most trainers like black and white dogs because they know whether they're telling it off or praising it. They don't like the grey dog because they don't know where they stand. I actually got a dog given back off a lad I sold it to because it's, and I trained this lad, said, I can't do with this dog. It's a grey dog. It'll do for you. I can't work it out. It's doing my heading. And I made him into a champion because I understood it. But he knew enough. It was too technically for him for how long he'd been in the sport. Yes. You know, I'm probably at his level. I can train a dog to a certain level. Then I have to turn it over to people that are better than him. ⁓ Okay. Now, you all do have a kennel, correct? Yep. Do you have any the bloodlines from your father's? You still have your father's bloodlines? They'll be way, way Way back. see, yeah, it gets that water down that then... they go way, way back. mean, in the great, great, great grandparents, yeah, they'll be great-said and there'll be a lot of other dogs, won't And I'm lucky because a lot of them great, great, great grandparents, I actually can remember them trialling, where a lot of what I call the modern trialers, they are only looking two and three generations back. I can look at dogs and I can remember, you know, going back 25 and 30 years and remember them. So you could look back at the pet and go, oh, that was a good one. It's great, great, great for a grandfather. So yeah, then things do help, but there's strong up front by Drake's head now. No, mean, no. Mine are all based on Asterix really. A dog called Asterix, I guess they qualified, he won the championship. And he qualified nine times in a row. So he was a good dog and he actually passed on. He was good sire. Yeah, we had him and we actually had about eight in the kennel. all by him, all from different bitches which were open dogs. So he actually passed his jeans on where other dogs, they don't pass it on. They're good dogs but they don't actually pass it on. That's one thing we tend to look for, if we're going to breed a litter and we're thinking of a stud dog to use, we'll think, ⁓ that's a nice dog and you'll go on internet and you'll think, God, he's had like 90 bitches. And then you try and think of puppies at UC running in trousers, buy that dog. and you can only come up with two or three dogs. And then you'll see another dog that you quite like, and you'll look noise on it, 20 bitches, and I can name six or seven dogs running in trials now, buy it. We tend to go to that dog, don't we? And the thing is, it's changed the money. All these health tests now, they are good and they're good for good reasons. But the problem is people are breeding for health tests more than the quality of dog now. Now, the... You know, when I do a clinic sometimes, or what you call a clinic, I'll say, you know, ⁓ who breeds for hips and elbows? ⁓ I do, I do. And who breeds for DNA? I do, I do. And who breeds for this? I do. And they breed for all these things. And who breeds for, who tests for the attitude test? And they go, well, I said the attitude test. The attitude of a dog is the most important. That's better than any test going. Cause if he's not a good attitude, ain't going to be a good dog. and he's not going to work with me. Now I always relate it to people and I say if you've ever employed people and got people to work for you, you know them people that the moment you shut door, he's lounging about, not working for you and doing whatever he wants or nicking out a till. Then you get these others which, they're just damn right lazy, or you get these others what rush. Then you get this other person which, he's a great good lad, he's not gifted, but he tries his best. He'll always go the extra mile to help me. I'm looking for that type of dog. And the trouble is people are breeding for the tests, which are very important. You should breed for the test, but one test they miss is the attitude test. And that is the best test of all. And that is what makes a dog great, not good, great. Purina Pro Plan. Here at Gun Dog Nation, we use Purina Pro Plan for our dogs. We actually use the Sport Performance Edition, which is 30 % protein and 20 % fat, the beef and bison. It contains glucosamine, omega-3s. for their joints. It also contains amino acids for muscles and antioxidants. It also has probiotics. It's guaranteed to have live probiotics in each serving. There's no artificial colors or flavors. We see the difference in our dogs. We see the difference in their coat, their performance, their endurance, and also in recovery. Be sure to use Purina ProPlan dog food. The reputation speaks for itself. There's a reason that Purina has been around for such a long time. We suggest that you use it. we are so proud to be sponsored by Purina Dog Food. When you're getting ready to go on your next hunting trip, make sure you pack the most efficient and reliable ammunition on the market. Migra ammunition brings you the most diverse loads on the market. Migra's patented stacked load technology is the epitome of efficiency. Two shot sizes stacked together to create the most diverse and efficient line of shot shells in the industry. It doesn't matter what flyaway, what state, or what the weather. The standard remains the same. At Migra, reliable loads that perform in any condition every single time. We're proud to have Migra ammunition as a sponsor for Gundog Nation. Hello, this is Kenneth Witt with Gun Dog Nation and I've got to tell you guys about something that I've gotten hooked on lately. It's Fauxlicious. These are gourmet instant faux and ramen bowls that actually taste like the real deal. When I'm out in the field all day and the last thing I want is to settle for bland camp food, Fauxlicious is what I go to. It's authentic, the flavor, it's real ingredients, it's ready in just minutes, it's perfect for hunters, fishermen, or anyone on the go. and can get them over 1900 Walmarts nationwide, your local HEB here in Texas, or you can just go online at folicious.com. Trust me, once you try it, you'll keep a few stocked in, in your bag, in your pack pack, or for your next adventure. I just want to say this, I'm going to add this to this commercial, because I know the owners of this company. They've hunted on my ranch, Joseph. He and I actually met in Colorado on a hunting trip that was a real adventure. They are true hunters. They've hunted at the ranch, know, and I've hunted with them. And Ana, she is just amazing. She is the one that came up with this idea. They were both on Shark Tank. They are amazing people. So I love seeing people like this have a business. And I just had to say that in addition to the commercial because I really believe in the product and I believe in the people that made the product. Be sure and go to Fauxlicious.com or go to Walmart or HEB and try their product. I promise you, you will like it. When you are looking at pairing for a breeding, do you place more weight on the male or the female? It can be both really because the bitch is very important, it does come off her, but it depends. Astra was a dominant size wasn't it? Yeah. So it didn't matter so much with the bitch. So you've got to know which way it generally throws. And it's hard now out there because I also like to see people training the dogs before I latch a breed off it because Some of these dogs, no disrespect to these ladies, you see them training. But then they were really soft when they were young and they'd nursed them on and nursed them on and nursed them on. And you see them at the end and they're flying and they look great. Then you get a puppy off it and it's really soft and you think, God, what have I got here? So I like to see them trained or have a bit of history on the dog so it knows if he's coming to me, it's got to be a dog what can learn to cope with pressure. And no pressure can be taught and it has to be taught into the dog so understand it. So I do like to know some background on the stuff I'm breeding off or getting off, which will help me because I know the type of things I like. But the bitch line is very important to me. Probably, I would say more important than the dog line, wouldn't you? Yeah, it's like mixing a cake, isn't it? You know, you try and balance it out. Sometimes you don't know what type of, you know, like say if we get a hard drive dog, too hard drive, and we've had them. try and put it to a dog a little bit lower key, which might pass that on or vice versa. ⁓ Or one that's got an independent attitude, trying to put it to a dog which is more of a dependent attitude and a balance. I mean, I've had some dogs which I've had good success with, but they've been totally reliant on me. Because this job, I look at it and I think it's pretty simple really. It's like golf. We want a dog, we can have a long drive, do a bit of a chip and then putt it. That's all it's got to do, and they find game when it gets there. It's all the obstacles in between what make it difficult. know? yeah, the bitch line is important, but the dog line is equally as important in some ways. Yeah, it is. It's like mixing a cake and hopefully you get a good mix, but you don't always do. No, no, I can get some disasters. ⁓ you do. You get some disasters, but not so many. You know, something I kind of paid attention to this year when I was in Scotland at the IGO is I saw a lot of successful ladies competing. Does there seem to be a growing number of ladies in the sport? ⁓ yeah, definitely. mean, when I started, you go to a trial and there might be one or two. This is 30 years ago. And it's grown now to at least 50-50. But you see, don't forget, we're not being disrespectful again. There's a lot of men out there who have good businesses, wife wants something to do, she goes... So it's very social now and what they do, go away training weekends and training with their pals and this is why it's gone that way. very much. has changed. The sport has changed totally. We're very male dominated and now it's the other way. But you you get different styles of training. What I call, I'm a thorough trainer. I go through every aspect and I teach the dog to do what it's told in every aspect. But then you get what I call the rough guidance and natural ability trainers, which are... mixture of it works with them some of the time and does a lot on its own and works it out that way and you get a lot of ladies what do it that way they go on a lot more walking up shooting days and the dog is more natural ability but when they get in a tight corner that's when it can start to show you know where I think this is a par four and I want to be up that on that fairway in two shots and then a little bit of putting and that's so I have to train every aspect of my dog so yeah it's changed and matter to have on way we started you know and some are very successful. you trained any other breeds? your wire-aids? ⁓ I've wire-aids, I've cockers, I've trained springers. I mean when I started I would train any dog problem, dog sheep chasers. that's where you learned a lot of ⁓ yeah you definitely learn your training at start when you make a lot of mistakes. You know I'd tech any dogs in for training, pet dogs or anything. ⁓ But now obviously for the last god knows how long we just concentrate on Labrador Retriever. I mean I had a couple of pointers not so long ago, three or four years ago. And I used to hunt hounds. I've had all sorts of dogs and I like that I've still got terriers and different things. So I like all aspects of dogs. Mr. Ms. Halstead, in all the years that you've all been involved with dogs, and John, even with your father, how have you seen the retriever evolve as a breed? What changed? It's definitely changed. Years ago there used to be a certain stamp of a big square headed Salter Dog and that changed and now you do get some quite snipey type and thin and I do think confirmation is a big thing really. It's got to be like a racehorse, it's got to be athletic and a good confirmation, a good mover. So it has changed a lot. I mean would say it climbed to a high peak. and then it's gone down again, hasn't it? In the standard of training, I would have said how long? 10 years ago, 15 years ago, I felt it was at its peak. It's still doing well now, but... It's definitely dropped off a It's dropped off. But the trouble is, when I started, there was probably 25 trainers up and down the country. Professionals. Professionals, that's it. Now there's 25 in every village. Yeah. And the trouble is, they haven't served no apprenticeship, they haven't served any time. You don't have to be good anymore. You just tell everybody how good you are. And you don't have to win anything. You just tell people you've won stuff because the internet now is a powerful thing. When we started, the proof was in the pudding. To get the work, you have to do the winning. And that was all there was to it. But you look back at old videos of field trials and they're probably going 70 yards and the dogs hunting. It's hunting all the way out. It has changed. and grounds have changed. mean, again, going back to my dad's time, it was mainly sugar beet fields. There were short lines. It was mainly marking and game finding military. And then a lot of the sugar beet stopped the quarter. So it stopped doing that. the terrain changed. Everything changes and evolves. And then now the lines have got bigger. It's like the championships. When I started 28 dogs, isn't a lot to get through. So you don't have to push it so much. 68. You can't make a mistake and you're gone because the pressure's on. So everything changes, not always for the best, but sometimes that's just the way it goes. And you've got to move with the sport and to be above the rest, you've got to train hard. It's like some of the old trainers, Alan Thornton, and I'll name you to say it's funny. The harder I train, the luckier I get. Interesting. Do you see that the breed have gotten smarter with all the breeding and champions that's been going on? Do you feel like that they're smarter than they were 40 years ago? No, I wouldn't say they're smarter. I would say the health tests have done a lot to improve the breed. mean, didn't used to used to do the elbows and hips years ago, but all the but we've got to be careful. We don't take it for I wouldn't say the dogs have got smarter. No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't say so. I the more trainable in some ways. Yeah, the more trainable in some ways. Yeah, some dogs. don't know really. I wouldn't say they got smarter. I still don't find it hard to get dogs. No, I mean we got, did you get three dogs given last year? Yeah, for the HGF. We just took them as an experiment. There were no hopers, wouldn't retrieve, one would run in half, all sorts of problems. And all three of them have won trials. Well, one's won a trial. Yeah, one's won a trial. Two's won a trial. Quills won a trial, I was sent near to deal, Evie won a trial, and Nashan won a trial. So all three of them, turned them round. It's a bit like, I always look at it, it's a bit like, you know, when bad lads go wrong, and you get a good teacher, takes them off the street, drills them down, shows them how it works, respects them, they come forward and you can build a good structure again and go forward. So that's what I do, I basically, it's like, you know, the army, they come into the army, I show them firm but fair. teach them and then they make the lovely dogs. But you've got to do your structure right at start. It's all in the basics. The structure to me is everything. It's like you're building your house, isn't it? Yeah, I like that. I think that's a great analogy. You're just building a foundation. Yeah, if you don't get them foundations right, you go on, you go on, you get to your upstairs window and they know what's up with that window you're going to and that's because your foundations aren't right. Mr. Halston, what's the best piece of advice, you could give one piece of advice to a young trainer coming up, wanting to get into this business, what would you say to him? I would probably say, if he wants to study all the trainers out there, find the style you like, then stick with that style and develop your own style based on that. The trouble is what a lot of people do, They'll come to me, then they'll go to him, then they'll go to her, then they'll go to him, then they'll always going round. You've got to find the style you like and eventually develop your style on that. When I started, were names and it was Alan Thornton. Then there was David Garber, there was Alan Rountree, was old Billy Steele, there was my father. And I watched all these people who were all better than me. And then I started forming my style. based on stuff they'd done and then I ended up better than them. And basically, don't get mixed up in the way you're gonna do it and keep being mixed up forever. Eventually say, I like that style. I'm gonna stick with that method and that's the one I'm gonna go for. Doesn't matter how, as long as it's working, stick with it. But if it's not, it's maybe time to change. But there's one thing in this sport you have to be careful of. They all say that, tell everybody, there's a lot of people talk out there and you've got to decide which is the right and not. And the only thing that I did say, bullshit baffles brains. And there is a lot of bullshit talked in this sport. And you know, the internet makes it worse, right? Everybody's an expert on the internet and I've caught myself like a, just lots of, even, even I play music a little bit and I've caught myself trying to learn guitar off about 10 different people on YouTube and I was just more confused than I was when I started, you know. Yeah, well, I've been playing guitar for about 25 years. Yeah. I play it virtually every night. Yeah, I like guitar. But like that, like you say, you can get confused. I go on the internet. But again, I look at myself with that and I like going back to things like that. The electric guitar. And I know if I want to get better at being a guitarist, I'd have to start doing all the things I didn't really want to do. Scales, all this. And I'm not. So what I call myself is a plinker. I just like plinking about and enjoy it. But if I want to go up to the next grade, then I've got to get serious and I'm not prepared to do that. And that's what I say to people with retrievers or training. Don't kid yourself. You want to get better without doing the work. There's no short, there's no shortcuts and it's a long, hard road to the top. You're right. Best advice I ever got. I played, I'm a banjo player. All right. I started playing, I was in school with a guy that's probably one of best I've ever seen, he's a professional. And he told me there's no substitute for the woodshed, know, getting in practice. And I would practice four hours a day throughout the day, just obsessed, like you said about long training. But after about a year of that, I was playing, you know, with the wind. yeah. It has to be an obsession in some ways. It has to be an obsession. And then you've got to work out all how it works. And you will find people which are natural and some what aren't and then what aren't have to work even harder. You know? Yes. And you know, ⁓ I've learned I've started hanging around some professional trainers over here. And one the things I've learned, Mr. Hall said is that professional dog training or full time training is a hard job. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's why I say I mean, You know, looking from the outside, all they see is you at a big competition and winning and this, that, or that. They don't see the hours and hours behind the scenes when it's not working in your building. And it's a bit like these people, just like your superstars with your guitars, there's hours and hours on the road when they're trying to set off at life. You know, there's a lot before you start getting the glory. There's a lot of learning goes on at the start, which you don't see working together, you know, building your house. We've still got families to cook. caught with and family life. So yeah, it's a long, tough road. Don't just look at the end. You've got to do the start to get to the end. I agree. Well, listen, y'all, I know I've taken a lot of your evening. This has been very enjoyable. I've learned so much listening to you because I don't consider myself an expert, not even a, I don't know, novice trainer is probably what I would consider myself, but I've learned a lot listening to y'all tonight. And hopefully we plan on trying to come back next year to the IGL. Do you all have any plans to come over to the States? We do actually, yes. So we're bringing the Holsteine Gundog Academy out there next year. We've had an invite from a lady up at North Carolina. And so we said, well, we'll come and do something up there and we'll spread the word. And we're hoping to do a road show. So if any. clubs or organisations want to get in touch, we'll see what we can put together and come out and do some training with you all. I mean I'd like to see how they work as well because any knowledge, you know, mean sometimes, don't matter how long you're in this, sometimes you watch things and you think, that's clever that, I like how they're doing that, that makes sense to me, you know, so you never ever stop learning training or different things, you've always got to have an open mind, look at your dog and look at yourself, don't just look at the dog and blame the dog for everything. Well, let me know when you all come. I'll be glad to promote that and I'll try to attend it myself. Good. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. There's one thing we say in this job when you're dog trading, keep checking the tablets cause you'll need a lot. Yes. Well, Hey, it's been a pleasure. I thank y'all so much for taking time to be on here and ⁓ this won't be the last time we get to talk for sure. Good. But yeah, when y'all come over here, I'll try to come visit and attend. But yes, is there anything else you'd like to say y'all as trainers, readers that you want to tell the listeners? Oh my gosh. No, well, one thing I mean, it's different for a professional because people say to me now, you know, do you still, you know, do you still enjoy it? It's daft because when it's a job, the enjoyment goes out long, long time ago. But that's what I would say to most people setting up. Don't lose sight of you must enjoy it. It's hard. It's like asking somebody like you're saying about these people that play professional guitar. When you've done it for 40 years, the novelty will wear off eventually. So when you're learning, make sure you enjoy it. Yes, take it serious to get better, but you must keep the fun in it as well. And don't over dog yourself. Don't over dog yourself. remember a famous trainer, a fellow called David Garbit won championships and I've told this many times that most people setting off, they think more dogs is better. It's just more. It's more work. Get one, maybe two, put all your effort into that. Because otherwise you'll just over dog yourself. I can do and it's hard for me. I could probably do a dozen or 15 dogs, which is a hell of a lot. Right. Probably a dozen is my maximum around that. But that's to learn, taken me all these years to learn all the shortcuts where I could do it. If you want to get good results, stick to one, maybe two, but all that working to them. As you get better, you might add the extra ones, but most people, when they get more, it starts going wrong. More is not better. It's just more. Fully agree. I've been guilty of that myself. So I know that's good advice. All right. Well, listen, y'all have a great rest of your week and hopefully get to see you person soon. I'll stay in touch. I follow you guys on Facebook and stuff. ⁓ No, well thanks for having us. It's been a pleasure to chat with you. We'll get together some point and play guitar. Yeah, yeah, we'll have to. Y'all come over. I'll introduce you to some bluegrass music. ⁓ sounds good. All right. Thank you all so much. I'll see You're welcome. Thank you. Bye bye.