Jim Mayer: Hello and welcome to the Manufacturing Culture Podcast. I'm your host, Jim Maher. Today we've got a great guest who has studied how people grow into responsibility. He's trained as an industrial and organizational psychologist and chooses to work close to this, to decisions that shape companies. For nearly two decades, he's worked with large manufacturers, trying to build leaders at every level. He's seen strong operations weakened by poor succession and unclear expectations. He's also seen quiet employees become steady leaders with the right structure and coaching. His work sits behind the scenes, the curtain, shaping who carries authority and how they use it. I'm pausing for dramatic effect so I know to edit all this out, Kevin. If you have, if you enjoy this show, dear listeners, please make sure to check out all of our other ⁓ shows. got but make it human. We've got the manufacturing connector and we've got industrial storytellers all on whatever platform you're listening to this show on. Check them out. They're a lot of fun. If you'd also do me a huge favor while you're here listening to this episode, take two seconds. whatever platform you're on and rate and review the show. It's not for me. It's not for my guests. It's to help other people find the show and learn something from the people who I have on. They don't learn from me. They learn from my guests. So without further ado, I'd like to introduce Kevin Tamminini, who is the guest this week on the Manufacturing Culture podcast. Kevin, welcome to the Manufacturing Culture podcast. How are you doing today? Kevin Tamanini: Thanks Jim, happy to be here. Jim Mayer: Awesome, glad we were able to get this up and running. And ⁓ it fairly quick, if I remember correctly, it hasn't been too long. A lot my episodes, I have to wait a long time before the guests on. And that's my own fault. That's not their fault. So Kevin, first question is a fun icebreaker. This all about you and who you are as a person. So Kevin Tamanini: Yeah. Jim Mayer: If your life were a movie, what genre would it be? Who plays you and what's the opening scene? Kevin Tamanini: Yeah, I love this idea because I think probably a lot of armchair psychology that comes into play and like what's behind this and why are you saying what you're saying types of deals. But when I thought about this, know, for me, I think this genre, I love it to be something really action oriented, but it wouldn't be. I think it would be a drama. I'd love it to have like a mystery component of like a who solve it type of situation. And the reason I say that is there's Jim Mayer: Okay. Kevin Tamanini: There's so much of the things that I've done throughout the course of my life where it's trying to figure things out. It's trying to dive in to understand stuff. so, fleeting those things together. If I had my choice of the lot and who to play me, I would probably pick someone like Matt Damon. I think he can bring a really serious tone, but he can also bring this affable, of relatable, every person kind of concept into the performances he does. And I would love that to be. Jim Mayer: All right. Kevin Tamanini: Hopefully that's how I see myself. So hopefully others will see the same thing in that. And the opening scene is an interesting one. think about like a seminal event that probably was happening in my career where maybe I'm coming into a meeting ⁓ you know, my leaders, I'm getting my coffee and I come into a meeting and my leaders say, okay, we got to blow everything up. Let's dive in. And what it does is it forces me to kind of do a pause and then it flashes to different points in my life where I had to solve something that was part of. Jim Mayer: You Kevin Tamanini: thing at the time, whether it was me in sports growing up as a kid, whether it was me doing something as I started my career, whether it was me with different parts of my family. I things along the way that would help me solve the thing or deal with the issue that we were dealing with. So that to me, going to start with a current thing that like blew things back up, zoom in, zoom back out, and then start to kind of go through the story. Jim Mayer: I like it. I like it. And your initial assessment of, you know, armchair psychology, there's a lot of that in this, right? That's exactly why I do this. It's a great way ⁓ for and audience to really understand how you and other guests yourselves and where the middle of your story is, right? Because the opening scene to every movie is Kevin Tamanini: For sure. Jim Mayer: media res and that's a midpoint of a story right so that's why I asked that question well done. Now we're going to get into some fun stuff because this is your your world. What does culture mean to you? Kevin Tamanini: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. a good question, because I'm trained as a psychologist. And so there's kind of like the academic side. then for me, and influences a lot of things that I've always done, how I've looked at how I approach things. But then there's the what does it mean to me and how does it make it tangible? And for me, culture is often used in that I think almost like belief. ways that you can feel it, but you can't describe it. I can understand that, but to me, the that I think it manifests, the words make it kind of come to life is it's not just what people say, it's what they do. So the culture is a representation of the things that people do on a regular basis. And I think that fundamentally people can work to create a culture, create a tone, but it's all dependent upon ⁓ the people that are part of that community make it come to life. If people don't agree the essence ⁓ or theme the tone of whatever it is we're trying to create as a culture, it doesn't matter. Because to me, there's an authenticity and an understanding of this is a reflection of who I am. So what I'm doing here is I'm doing this because I believe that this is the right thing. I believe that this is how I want other people to see me. This is how I want to represent the collection of what we're doing. And I think it is a collective. So the culture isn't just person saying one thing or doing one thing. It needs to be a collective effort so that those things come through. And when that happens, when it's an authentic representation of who people are and what they want to do, then it becomes real because it's embedded in everything that they do. Jim Mayer: Yes. Kevin Tamanini: the words that they use, it's the actions that they take, it's the way in which they engage people. And so to me, concept of the culture is it's really about what is our commonality that we wanna see together. And then let's make sure that we hold each other true to that so that if things go off, then we can course correct back in. And if people need help, we can support them along the way because it's part of who we are. Jim Mayer: Yes. Yeah, I love it. And we'll get into why you're able to make that assessment and why I'm asking you this next question in just a moment. ⁓ My definition of culture has changed over the course of years. And mainly because I, I've that there's truly no culture, like as a broad stroke. Kevin Tamanini: ⁓ Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jim Mayer: right and and it falls a lot of into what you're you're talking about because we're talking about individuals right and and what may be toxic to me be very healthy to you ⁓ of your beliefs and how you're representing x y and z right we can talk about good bad as a different context right and and it is to Kevin Tamanini: Mm-hmm. Jim Mayer: be good and what it means to be bad more on the philosophical spectrum. But when I look at culture that alignment of beliefs and you represent my ⁓ thesis my what I have talked about on this show is culture is at the most base level, the alignment of values between ⁓ an organization the employees that work there and value system that each If the organization values accountability and I don't, I'm going to feel that's a fairly toxic culture, right? And vice versa. If the company culture doesn't value account or the company doesn't value accountability and I do, I'm going to find that to be rather toxic. Is there ⁓ validity from background and again we'll talk about what Kevin's background is here in a moment but is there validity in that statement from the organizational psych world? Kevin Tamanini: Yeah, for sure. And what I would say is that your comment that resonated with me is it's not necessarily a bad culture or a toxic culture. What I think happens is people want to label a culture as bad if it doesn't align with them and their beliefs and their views. And so there may be, I do think that there are some societal and certain standards that can help us determine what is effective and ineffective culture is what is culturally appropriate or inappropriate. Jim Mayer: Yeah. ⁓ Kevin Tamanini: what are good and bad in a societal or social norm perspective. But I think that that evaluation of a culture does come down to how well do you align to standard ethos, guidelines whatever that culture is. And just you don't doesn't mean you're bad and it doesn't mean that the culture is bad. It means that there's a mismatch. And so fundamentally, Oftentimes people will want to align to something because of what they see and and expect. And then the question is how well is it fit? How close is the alignment between what I thought I was stepping into and what I'm seeing actually materialize. And if that's not the case, then there's self-selection away from that. There's decisions to move away from it. But I think that, yeah, there's, there's a lot of research that talks about how, misalignment with core values, ⁓ culture. poor beliefs leads to dissatisfaction, leads to poor performance, leads to different types of turnover, whether it's voluntary or involuntary turnover. And so those are productivity metrics that come in all because of a mismatch between what I want and what is present within the organization. Jim Mayer: Right. Yeah. Awesome. I love that. And thank you for validating years of my work and, and, in one fail swoop. ⁓ Kevin, I, I, I want to zero in on a couple of things that you just said, because there are a lot of companies that don't intentionally work on culture. There are a lot of companies who don't have defined values, right? As well. And ⁓ I think that Kevin Tamanini: Sure. Jim Mayer: personally again, you're the like, ⁓ person on this show when it comes to this I, I have studied it. Kevin Tamanini: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jim Mayer: I think that if you aren't intentional about building your culture, you're still going to have one. If you're not intentionally defining what your values are, the organization still has values, right? But you're not able to then hire to those values if you don't have them defined. Is there validity in that statement as well? Kevin Tamanini: Yeah, think that the question is, are there values or not? And so what happens ultimately is if there isn't something that's stated, then there leads to a lot of perceptions over what are our values. that's sometimes, and that comes from all angles. That can come from entry-level associates all the way through the executives of an organization. And so ⁓ nothing is stated that creates anchor points, then it's left to our own interpretation. And the only way that I think that we can then interpret culture is by what we see. And that leads to an assumption that we a holistic view over what happens within the organization. And let's be real. I that values set to tone of foreign organization on here are the things and the pillars that we would like to be representing how we behave internally and what others see from us. But there's cultures within cultures within cultures for teams and functions and departments and regions and plants and all that kind of stuff. so part of it is how, how, how much of a deviation are they from each other? So that's what I would say is if nothing is stated, there is a culture. And actually, I don't think that I would revise that there are cultures, they manifest and how they differ is something that can lead to challenges. ⁓ Jim Mayer: Absolutely. Kevin Tamanini: It could seem really good to say, well, we do what we need to do because that's how we want to operate. But not knowing does that jive with other people and what they're doing over here. And are you actually missing opportunities to do something more effective than you actually could at the end Jim Mayer: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love it. I love it. So Kevin, now let's back up. And let's talk about what is that you do. So you are in this world called industrial and organizational psychology. Is that correct? All right, fantastic. I wanted to make sure I had the right guest that I was talking, just kidding everybody. What does that Kevin Tamanini: Hmm? That's right. Ha ha ha ha ha. Jim Mayer: Because that's whole lot of really big words that don't necessarily always go together in everyday language, especially around a shop. So what does industrial and organizational psych mean? Kevin Tamanini: Yeah, it does mean a lot of things. Let me share with you maybe as the way to explain it is how I learned about it and what I discovered from it. Because when I went into the area of psychology, that I used to be the outlet for people when they had ideas or problems and they were looking to help solve. And I naturally went into this area of, well, maybe I can learn to help people solve their different problems. And there were parts of psychology that I really enjoyed. And then there were parts of a clinical evaluation that I didn't. My advisor said, well, what are you thinking about? said, maybe I'll go to business. I'll just transition to general business so I can get in and work with an organization. He said, well, you know, there's an area of psychology that blends things in business things in psychology. And I said, that's interesting. How so? So I went through a class and what we learned is there's the industrial side and there's the organizational side. And industrial psychology was all about performance management and how do you hire people? And then how do you evaluate people and what they're doing and the tools and the process to drive efficiency and structure and fairness? That's the industrial side. Evaluate people and their jobs on what does it take to be successful? And then there's the O side. And the O side comes into, motivated are they? What drives motivation? What drives culture? How do we train and develop people, not just identify people? And then you blend those two things together. And so for me, that's industrial and organizational psychology in a nutshell. And for me then within the organization I work with is the company that when I started at DDI, Development Dimensions International, we did talent management. So I had a lot of experience on the theoretical side of things. And I wanted to see the application of how do we take this stuff, build tools to help people who have Jim Mayer: Yeah. Kevin Tamanini: problems or challenges with what they do, and then work with the customers to get them in place. And we do a blend of the O and the I side, which I really liked those kind of experiences. And so that's how it starts to come together. And now we've evolved as an organization to focus on leaders, within organizations. And we do a huge, a amount of work with manufacturing organizations in particular on how do we help leaders? And leaders, being a leader is a hard job. Just... Jim Mayer: Mm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Kevin Tamanini: People say, I would love to be a leader without knowing what that means. It's tough. so helping them, organizations find the right people, know the skills are that they need in their culture and their environment, finding the right people, getting them in the role and then develop to be successful. And that's the crux of what I do. Jim Mayer: It is. Yeah. I love it. Was there a stage in your life that you I mean you told us about how you found IOP right? Was there a stage where or a moment where you're like leaders can be designed can be developed. It's not just like a random discovery within the ranks of your teams right? ⁓ Was there a Kevin Tamanini: for sure. For me, there was, when I was in undergrad and I went through my first industrial organizational psychology course, it was with a faculty member who was an adjunct faculty at the time. he went to the US Army War College. He worked at the US Army War College in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. ⁓ I went through the course and I said, this is pretty cool. Could I do an internship with you? And he said, yes. So I worked at the US Army War College for about a year ⁓ where went in and his focus was on creating leadership development Jim Mayer: Bye. Kevin Tamanini: content for all of the brass that came through the War College. And so I got to see people that were majors, colonels, initial that were going through to learn how to be leaders. And these were people that went to West Point. ⁓ went to the Naval Academy. They went to the Air Force Academy. And they learned core leadership skills there. But this helped take them to the next level of what did it mean to them become upper echelon of leadership. Jim Mayer: Interesting. Kevin Tamanini: And so to me, that was this idea of they had so much experience. had boots in the ground, literally experience leading people through different scenarios. And now they still needed more to help them refine and to help them build and to help them hone their craft of being a leader, regardless of what area they were from. And so to me, that was like a, it was an eye-opening thing. It's not just leaders are made. They're not just born and then that's who they are. It requires effort from them on a continual basis to continue to improve their skills. And that was a eureka moment for me. Jim Mayer: I love it. I love it. Was there a moment earlier in your career that you saw the way manufacturers choose ⁓ leaders ⁓ and say, man, this could be done differently? Because to me, and let me this a bit. I have spent Kevin Tamanini: Mm-hmm. Jim Mayer: 26 years at this point in the industrial world. have seen most moved up the ranks because they were the best individual contributor. Yeah, they were great at being a welder or a machinist. But never in their life have they developed those ⁓ leadership skills, So what I guess what surprised you about the way that people are promoted in manufacturing and you're like, man, this is for me. Kevin Tamanini: Yeah, I mean, it's unfortunate that it's not a unique situation just to manufacturing, but early in my career when I started at DDI, so I've been with DDI for a little over 18 years. And at the time that I started, one of our largest customers was General Motors. And I worked on a program with them focusing on their skills trades groups. And so I went in and I got to travel to all different plants all over the country see them doing their Jim Mayer: Okay. Okay. Kevin Tamanini: roles, but then getting into this skills trade program in particular was fascinating. there were they were, they weren't just the individual contributors that get we're getting into mill works or whatever the case was going to be. It was the leadership team on supervisors and I had asked them, so how did you get into this? And they said, my my boss recommended me because I've been doing this for x amount of time and I'm really good. ⁓ I said, Do you does it is it meeting your expectations so far and they're like, Jim Mayer: you Right. Kevin Tamanini: I didn't know what I didn't know about it. And fundamentally, what I've always noticed within manufacturing anyway is there's a hunger and a desire to say, just tell me what you think I need to do because it's not just about being the best welder. It's not just about being the best in this particular area or understanding how the supply chain is moving. I need to understand more and blocking and tackling skills around managing conflict, figuring out just who's going to show up to work and what do I do if they don't? Jim Mayer: Yeah. Kevin Tamanini: figuring out how to help people move through personal and practical situations that they're dealing with. And so to me, was like, there was this desire within the manufacturing space of, I'm hungry for it, give it to me. Now, challenge in all honesty has been, I don't know how I get off the line to spend enough time to do these things, especially when they're soft skills. listen, I've with manufacturing organizations Jim Mayer: Yeah. Kevin Tamanini: from, you know, car automotive, industrial, you know, into food supply, know, bread companies that are producing things, medical device manufacturing. But this consistency of how do you move, go away from the line and spend time doing soft skills if it doesn't help me drive into KPIs, even though I know this is what I really need to be a better leader. ⁓ And don't want to keep banging my head against the wall. Jim Mayer: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kevin Tamanini: but I'm struggling to figure out how do I balance these two things, just continue to feel like it's magnets repelling each other. And so that's just the thing to me that's back to my whole, like, I love to try to think about how to solve that problem. How can I help give you something? How can I help you think about something differently? It can move the needle. It may not be end all be all thing, but at least it can help you in your conversation you're gonna have today. Jim Mayer: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Kevin Tamanini: with someone who's struggling in their role and helps them be successful tomorrow. So to me, it was this space that enabled us to do a lot of things that could help people in a lot of different ways. ⁓ Jim Mayer: Yeah, I love that. when you walk into a ⁓ company, right, you walk into a facility, is a way that you can just by walking in the door, tell how strong or robust or on the flip side week, their leadership pipeline is. Kevin Tamanini: That's a fascinating question. think. A lot gets through production success and a gets masked when there's production ⁓ issues or concerns. share what I mean by that. So like been, we've been gathering some data and I just actually did a couple of focus groups with several of our manufacturing organizations over last couple of weeks. And two different themes that I see coming out from them. One category are are organizations that are in trouble mode. They're stuck because tariff situations, ⁓ general geopolitical is creating supply chain issues. AI disruption within the organization and not knowing how they deal with that has led them to feeling like I got, I'm stuck. We got to move fast. We got to think about new solutions. We're Second one is companies that are like, we're growing. Things are going well. Yes, there's other stuff, but we haven't been impacted by tariffs the same way these other ones are because we've been all within the, within the United States. Okay. Interesting. So we feel like we're growing and because they're growing. They don't have the time to spend on some of this stuff because the other ones are trying to catch up. They don't have the time to spend on these things. so it's not as easy just to see on the surface. Well, how are your leaders dealing with it? What I, what though, typically if I walk in and I'll just ask a couple of key questions and it can become pretty clear right away. Do your leaders have what they need to move forward? And even that question alone is no or Yeah, they're good, but no, they need more. And or we've grown so much, we've had to push people into leadership roles, or we've had to lay people off. And so now we've had other people step in who didn't have leadership before. So just that context alone can give me a line of sight to say, where are you relatively, but as soon as you ask a question, it becomes very apparent and no one disagrees with it. They all see the same things, which is reassuring, but also I wish there was more that we could do to help them move the needle faster. Jim Mayer: Yeah, absolutely. So talk to us about what good process to succession planning would look like then, right? Because I think a lot of people, especially the people I work with, and lot of the people who listen to the show are small medium right? Kevin Tamanini: Yeah. Jim Mayer: they don't have thousands of employees, right? They most of them don't have hundreds, we're talking under 100 employees, and they view succession planning as who's going to take over the company next, not who's leading day to day, right? So what what does succession planning look like for those small to medium sized manufacturers? Kevin Tamanini: I don't think it looks different the board, to be honest, Jim. I think that the question is how quickly can they move? And small organizations, in my view, have the ability to move faster than larger organizations. And within succession planning, and many organizations will say we don't have the right bench, particularly in manufacturing, there's a plant manager gap. Like that is an area that we constantly hear. If you could help us solve this problem, getting people that can get into this role quickly, ⁓ with the right skills and have legs take another couple of steps into other general manager type of roles, whatever the case is, that's cool. But that becomes a real issue within most manufacturing organizations. And so to me, regardless of size, it's what are the table stakes from a succession perspective? And so what people want to do is try to say, you have high potentials or people who have been around and what's the criteria that we use. And they want to try to start looking earlier and earlier in the process. And I can understand that, but at the same time, what I would say is you need to have established yourself as a leader and foremost in demonstrated successful performance in whatever roles you have had for at least two to three years. Those are table stakes. Once get there, then we start to see for succession, who has the ability to develop faster if I invest more time with them. That could be. ⁓ Jim Mayer: Got it. Kevin Tamanini: one-on-one, it could be coaching stuff, it could be going through leadership development courses, could be different experiences where we shift them around the plant to different roles. But it's a, ⁓ do think that, if I think that Jim has a high potential to do this, that means I think he can learn quickly and then move through different roles within the organization. And ⁓ if we it, then move. Smaller organizations, I think, have the ability to start doing that sooner. If it out that you hit a ceiling, Jim Mayer: Got it. Kevin Tamanini: That doesn't mean you're a bad associate. It doesn't mean you're a bad employee. It doesn't mean you're bad leader. It might just mean you don't have the legs that we initially thought you did to get even further along. And so as that goes, this succession landscape starts to open up. Where are there core and critical roles that we say we have to develop from within? And what happens if we can't? What is the options to go external? Succession isn't just about grow your own. Jim Mayer: Right. Mm. Kevin Tamanini: That's a great approach. I believe in that fully, but it can't be the only approach to that. so understanding what is the difference between performance within role, potential to learn and grow and develop, and readiness to step into the next role. And do we evaluate that? And we can do that. We have tools that we can do that. We have structure that we can do that. ⁓ it needs to be an understanding that it's not just based upon your perception on what they did for. Jim Mayer: Right. Mm. Kevin Tamanini: It's on what we think that they can do next. And that's a different wiring for us to work with people around. Jim Mayer: Absolutely. love that change, Because that's really what it is. It's a change the way that you look at your team. Kevin, do you spend any time on Reddit? this isn't like a gotcha question. I spend time on Reddit. Are you ever on Reddit? OK. ⁓ So I outlined what I've seen, right? That Kevin Tamanini: Mm-hmm. periodically, not frequently though. Jim Mayer: individual contributors is promoted. The other thing we see on or see on Reddit quite a bit is they hire quite frankly like me right never been a machinist been a welder has ⁓ spent his life the industry but not necessarily in ⁓ those skilled roles has an MBA and then is brought in as a leader and to the floor it's because they have an MBA that they were brought in to lead a team or a plant or a facility or whatever that looks like. And there's a lack of ability for the shop floor, the frontline to see demonstrated skills. So. Kevin Tamanini: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jim Mayer: Talk to us about that dynamic because we do see it. I didn't bring it up as, as one of the examples, but you do see, you know, people going through these ⁓ programs and there's so many people with MBAs out there now it's flooded, but they don't have the empathy to know exactly what goes on in a day to day on the front line to be able to lead those people. that, does that bring up a whole different set of challenges that you see? Kevin Tamanini: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It does. And I think that part of that is the question of as someone comes into that type of a role. listen, that's someone who doesn't have direct experience or they're coming from another organization, another industry that doesn't have the same type of technical depth. From a leadership perspective, one of the things that I'll say is understanding what it means to do things at the ground level is important to understand. How much do you need to know versus do or is a separate question? Because there's ultimately credibility. And I think that what you're hitting on is needs to be enough in order for us to follow someone, they need to have established and built enough credibility with the people they're trying to lead that they understand what they're going through. And can then figure out the messaging to say, follow what I want you to do. Without that, then it just turns into a tug of war. Okay, but one of the things that we do, like when I'm working with an organization, let me just go like Jim Mayer: Got it. Kevin Tamanini: top of the house or senior types of roles. What we do is we put leaders through a simulation. And the simulation is actually in an industry that is not their area. It's a fictitious organization, but it puts them in a role. And it says, you're going to play the role of this executive. Sometimes it's a CEO, sometimes it's a president, sometimes it's a operational executive, a GM role. And it puts them in a completely different environment than what they actually live in. Jim Mayer: Yeah. Mm. Kevin Tamanini: And the reason we do that is it strips out all technical capability and focuses exclusively on their leadership chops. So if they don't have leadership chops fundamentally, then they're not going to be able to succeed in those roles because there's so much strategy. There's so much execution. That's the blend of operational and vision that comes into play. In order to be successful, though, they also need to understand what are people doing to build that credibility. So to me, it's not an either or. Jim Mayer: Mmm. Kevin Tamanini: And if you do that, and people haven't grown up with an organization, I just worked with an organization that put a new CEO in place, large manufacturing organization here in Pittsburgh, and this person has been with them for 35 years and he started as a chemist. And so he ⁓ throughout different roles, instant credibility. But they were also looking at someone from outside that would have had to have really good leadership chops. but not known how the organization works. And so then that person would have had to figure out how to blend those two together. So to me, ⁓ it's a reality. I don't think that it's a bad thing to do, but I think that if under appreciating the of what it means to build that credibility and knowledge, if that gets under appreciated, then they can't be successful. Jim Mayer: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. And I think we tend to see that more in larger organizations, right? More publicly traded, less private family owned businesses, you see that dynamic. Because I think that their top leadership, the people who are putting those people in place have a different target that they're shooting for as well, right? They're Kevin Tamanini: for sure. Sure. Jim Mayer: they're looking at shareholder value. They're not necessarily looking at longevity and legacy of family name, which is often, I mean, I, the amount of shops that I know that are small family owned shops, small to medium sized family owned shops where the son or daughter has never worked in the industry before, but yet they finished college, they go out into the world, they cut their teeth in some other industry and then come back when dad or mom is ready to retire. Kevin Tamanini: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jim Mayer: is astronomical that happens all the time. ⁓ I think the difference is there there's an expectation that family lineage lineage and legacy will continue ⁓ those kinds of shops versus out for shareholder value is there validity in that Kevin Tamanini: Mm-hmm. I think you're right. I think you're right. There's also a lot of data that Jim that talks about how second generation leaders from a family, if they don't go through the process of learning the business, those businesses fail. And so there's another aspect of that, which is when those happen and there's a disconnect from what happens and how it operates. But the ones that are successful, the family lineage, the next in line person from the family, if they started at the ground level, Jim Mayer: Yes. Kevin Tamanini: work their way up, understand the different roles, have lived in the shoes of those taking on different leadership roles and matriculated to that helps to enable success. So I think that back to your question before of like, what does succession look like? In those smaller ones, it is understanding the nuance within the organization, especially at that senior level. organizations, there's some probably degrees of freedom that you can mask some of that, especially with bringing in from the outside. That doesn't always happen with smaller, more family-owned private organizations. like to try to keep that a little bit closer to the vest. So there is data that talks about both of those things, though, at the same Jim Mayer: got it. I love it. Um, so you talked a little bit about the, I don't know if it's an assessment, but the exercise that you put people through quick sidebar on that. How long does that take? Um, and what does it look like? I mean, is it something, and I may delete this because I don't want to give away proprietary, but is it something that you and I could do on my other show, uh, in an hour and Kevin Tamanini: Mm-hmm. Jim Mayer: You put me through this process ⁓ taking the assessment or the exercise? Kevin Tamanini: Yeah. So let me describe it to you and then you can give me your thoughts. when we put people through what we call an assessment, and it's an assessment center. So it's a business simulation where what we do is we put people in a day of a life of a role. And it's really good because it gives you an opportunity to say, you're not in this role now, but I want to stretch you to see how you would do if you were the next CEO. So that it's a pretty intensive process, Jim. So what typically it looks like is it's a day long assessment. So you get some pre-work where you look at the organizational structure. You learn about the products. You learn about the markets. What we use as part of our example is a robotics organization. That's the fictitious organization that we use. It's set way in the future. You come in, then you start day one as the new incoming executive. And so you're asked to Meet with people on your team, put together a presentation for the board. Maybe do an interview with the media because there was a problem with one of your products. a vision speech out to the organization, and we consolidate that. And we evaluate you on core leadership capabilities. What were the business challenges that the organization was focusing on? How does this assessment measure those different things? And then how did you do? Were you proficient? Were you need some development in certain areas? And then ultimately, for us, would be How ready are you to step into this role? We can use it for selecting people or developing people for next in line, getting them ready to move into those in line roles. Jim Mayer: Got it. So it's about a day long. I seriously, you to think about if this is something you would want me to go through, And we could put it up on the manufacturing connector. I'll capture via screen recordings. then we can, part of the actual episode, ⁓ Kevin Tamanini: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Jim Mayer: you can go through the debrief of that exercise not for my own like ego or anything right like ⁓ yeah Jim you're a great fucking leader right more of hey this is how the process works this is how we evaluate your future leaders I think that would be fascinating man and and if you're willing to like open the curtains a little bit and give me access to that I would I mean it wouldn't be like immediate but in the next couple of weeks or months I would love to take that assessment and reconvene you and you debrief me on what the results are. Kevin Tamanini: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let me, let me come back to you on it. think that I love the idea of it. It's something the other stuff that you know, is we don't just use it with our customers. We use it, like we do a lot of practice what we preach. So I went through of these things as part of the matriculation that I've had. And so one, done what you just described with many customers and I've through it myself. And so we've wholeheartedly believe it's a good tool to help evaluate that type of stuff. Jim Mayer: Sure. Okay. Yeah, I love it, man. I love it. Because there are so many assessments out there, right? You've got culture index, you've got predictive index, you've got an for leadership and development coming out the wazoo. And if there's one that is designed by somebody in the IOP world, right, that understands those dynamics, I would be very curious and Kevin Tamanini: Yes. Okay. Jim Mayer: because I've done the culture index, I am, you know, a maverick in there, I've done the EGA and T type, you know, I've done disk, I've done all of it. And it's, it's neat to look at, and it's neat to help understand, like, internal dynamics. But I don't, I've never really seen one that can help qualify strengths as a leader coming in. And so I ⁓ Kevin Tamanini: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. ⁓ Jim Mayer: just my own edification and I think it would make for a fascinating fucking episode ⁓ do something like that. So think about that, I'd love it. ⁓ what you think talking about immense amount of assessments that are out there, what do most and let's stay specific in manufacturing because we all ⁓ know that think a little bit differently than some industries out there. Kevin Tamanini: Yeah. We'll do it. Jim Mayer: What people in manufacturing have as misunderstandings or misconceptions about assessments when it comes to leadership and development and all of those kinds of things? Kevin Tamanini: Yeah, think the biggest misconception is they're not going to tell me something I don't already know. ⁓ I'll give you an example. I actually was doing this. We were doing succession planning for another large manufacturing organization. And it was for their next in line CEO. And I met with their current CEO. And we a number of people through that day in the life assessment simulation, very robust data that came out of it. ⁓ Jim Mayer: Hmm. Kevin Tamanini: And we sat down, I sat down to do the data review with them and talk about each of individuals. And said, just before we get started, ⁓ I want to know, I don't think there's anything that you're going to tell me that I don't already know about these people. I've worked with all of them for this much time. And I know enough. So was kind of like a, all right, let's see what I can do. And so through the course of the conversation, Jim Mayer: Interesting. Kevin Tamanini: There were several times where all the, I remember very distinct distinctly on the one that was his primary focus. And I said something as I was reviewing the data and he just stood up and walked around the room, came back over and looked at the head of HR and said, what he just said is the thing I could never put my finger on. There were several times where all the, I remember very distinct distinctly on the one that was his primary focus. And I said something as I was reviewing the data and he just stood up and walked around the room, came back over and looked at the head of HR and said, what he just said is the thing I could never put my finger on. And so just because we didn't have the technical knowledge of what they went through and we weren't going to negate the 25 years of experience that this person had, we were able to get a raw look. pure leadership chops and how would they handle certain situations. So it's not just about, you a good leader or a bad leader? It's how are you a leader in this situation, in this context? And if you as a board want to see your business grow organically, here's what that needs to look like. If you want to grow through acquisition, if you need to penetrate new markets, if you need to shift the organizational paradigm, I can paint a picture on how does Jim align with each of those scenarios. Jim Mayer: I love it. Kevin Tamanini: And so it was this idea and he's like, the biggest misconception was we promote based upon who does well. We know who's good and who's not good and results are going to tell us answer. And that's only of the equation. So to me, to your question, that's the biggest misnomer. Whether you're a frontline leader, all the way through an executive, that permeates most manufacturing that I've talked to. Jim Mayer: Yeah, I love it. I love it. so Kevin after 20 years 20 plus years in this work. Why do you stay? Kevin Tamanini: It's there's new problems each situation is a new problem to solve and think about in a different way and so while I've seen thousands of leaders going through different types of scenarios the blend between the context of that organization and the Individual is always unique. There's always there's consistencies and things I can look for in that process or organizations There's nuance within every organization and what they want to do. And that's good. That doesn't mean they're doing something wrong. It means that's what they're doing for them. And to me, it's trying to figure out what's going to be the solution that helps them move the needle, to helps them put a bandaid on something that's hurting right now, to them be more effective. And it's different every single time, even though I've seen this in so many different cases. There isn't a one size fits all approach to it. Jim Mayer: Yeah, great answer. I love it. how does, let's go really and all at the same time. How does good leadership ⁓ change the of people on the factory floor, the shop floor? Like, let's talk about the result of what you and DDI do. Kevin Tamanini: Yeah. glad you asked that because leadership skills aren't about being a better worker, helping your team be more productive. We fundamentally believe there's a personal and practical balance to how you interact with people. Listen, a core component of a leadership job is dealing with people. And people are not machines. And so you need to understand what they're bringing to the table. And we've talked many people about If you help them manage conflict amongst themselves, you're helping to teach them skills on how they can deal with their teenagers at home or family member who's having challenges. It doesn't it's not exclusive to the workplace alone. And so it's not just about one of our mottos is building better leaders for a better future. The amount of stories that we get not from organizations, organizations will come back and say, this is great because it helped our leaders do X, Y and Z. But we talked to the leaders one on one and they say, Jim Mayer: Yeah. Kevin Tamanini: This helped me have a conversation with my teenager who's been struggling and I didn't know how to talk to them differently about school. That's phenomenal. Like that gives me chills as I talk about it. And it's those types of things, it's skills are not our life skills that come, we talk about how to communicate, how to engage, ⁓ to help someone manage through change. When is that not applicable to just a regular life? And so to me, ⁓ about understanding Jim Mayer: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Kevin Tamanini: It's not just doing it here. And the reality is people don't just work. a big part of their life. It's not the only part of their life. And so many people work to survive. Maybe people survive, live to work. But it's a few and far between, I think. so understanding that you're helping to equip them, whether they're here, whether they're there, whether they're at home, that's kind of a cool thing because that's the type of testimonies we get back from the... Jim Mayer: Right. Yeah. Kevin Tamanini: the leaders directly that we're interacting with on a regular basis. Jim Mayer: Yeah, and I see that all the time I lead, I facilitate leadership development workshops for those small to medium sized shops and every single time I have one, I have somebody who says, leadership's like parenting. And they're able to draw that connection on their own. then Kevin Tamanini: Yeah. Yeah. Jim Mayer: the next session they come back and they're like, ⁓ I applied this to my teenager or to my grade school or or to my kids softball team or whatever it looks like, right. And so it is you're right, it is chill inducing because it's really neat when you have these grown come to you and and you can see the lightbulb switch on inside them of this these skills aren't just going to help me get from point A to point B professionally. It's these skills that Jim is talking about that Kevin and DDI are talking about. These are life skills, right? And why I hate that term soft skills you brought up earlier. And we talked about this in the pre-call, man. I fucking hate that term. ⁓ The term soft skills just, it demeans them so much ⁓ because truly are Kevin Tamanini: I I know, I know. I Jim Mayer: life skills, their interpersonal skills, their skills that a lot of us learn when we're in kindergarten, man. And yet at the same time, we forget them over the course of our school and professional lives. And we have to relearn them in our and 40s order to lead a team. It blows my mind. But yeah, I love I love that answer for you. Let's talk about Kevin's Kevin Tamanini: You Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jim Mayer: the pride and the legacy that Kevin wants, right? so when you look at somebody who you helped, who you coached, who you have helped place, what does if they see success later in life, what does that mean for you? Like if you were to coach me and help develop me into a better leader, and I call you 20 years from now and I say, Hey, Kevin, I just landed my role as a CEO of a fortune five. What does that mean for you? Kevin Tamanini: This happened to me a couple times where I've had some people do it and sometimes they've been part of my team, sometimes they've been customers that I've worked with directly for a long period of time. when it happens, I humbled be honest with you because if I'm able to share something with you that helps you do something different, That's great. That's you though. It's not me. And so wherever you got to, wherever someone got to, they'll come back and say, that thing that you said to me, that thing that you equipped me with, that guidance that you gave me, it huge. was tremendous. And here's what I did with it. And I come back every time and say, I'm glad that resonated, recognize it was you that made that happen though. And so to me, it's a, if I have a part in it, that's pretty cool. Jim Mayer: Mmm. Kevin Tamanini: But I always, I never want someone to diminish the role that they played in making that happen. And people will use things like, well, I just got lucky. And I say, I think that's a little crap. Luck in my view is, is an intersection between hard work and opportunity. And so if you recognize the opportunity to then put something forth, whether it was a bold idea, whether it was a ton of action, whatever the case was. And if it was something that I gave you a recommendation to do, that's cool. It's not because I made the recommendation, it's because you capitalize on that situation, do what you needed to do. And so me, I hearing things. ⁓ mean, that me feel really good, but I try to turn it around because it also makes me feel like I don't really think deserving of that. You're the one that made it happen. So figure out how you capitalize on that more. And if you can do it to somebody else, go forth and do the same. Jim Mayer: Okay. Well, and so two things first, I believe the role of a leader is to make more leaders, right? Like that is our job as a leader is to make more leaders. So I love that. And I kind of anticipated that you would be super humble about your answer to that. So what is the mark? What is the legacy that Kevin wants to have ⁓ the IOP and or manufacturing world? Kevin Tamanini: For me, it's about, I would love people to look back and say, he was a guy that could help us think about things differently, that could help us see some things that we weren't thinking about and gave us some really good ideas on what we could do next. And, and that, that, that's enough. Like to me, that means going back to one of the things I shared with you at the beginning is like, I started in psychology because I just wanted to help people solve their problems. And to me, if people are able to say, we did this because we got some good rock guidance and recommendation. Cool, that's the first starting point. Everything else you did is still what you did with it afterwards. Jim Mayer: I love that. That was a great mic drop moment, Kevin. And that note, I'll ask you my final question that I ask every guest. Kevin, what haven't I asked you that you want to share with the audience? If there is anything, if I did my job appropriately and well and we covered I appreciate that too. Kevin Tamanini: Mm-hmm. No, you did. I think you covered a lot of stuff. You know, one of the things as we were talking, something that popped in my mind is how think there's a perception at time within manufacturing that manufacturing stays the same. And I think that an interesting topic to discuss is how that's not true. You asked me like, what is it that I need to demystify or debunk that people have about leadership? And I think there's the same thing, which is the perception that things stay the same within manufacturing, and they just do not, and there is constant change, whether it's that everybody else deals with at the same time. And so I think that that idea of that's a fascinating topic that I think is interesting, particularly around the AI space and what that means for so many people in very different ways. there's I think that there's some of those layers that are fascinating conversations at the same time. Jim Mayer: Absolutely. mean, I on my son's soccer team, there's a who works for a large manufacturer. She's in supply chain. ⁓ And that large manufacturer ⁓ has that supply chain is going to have a massive riff, right? And in that riff, solution for them is AI. ⁓ And Kevin Tamanini: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jim Mayer: she's at a level that she will be affected by this riff. part of her job is to help the organization understand what AI can't do as part of this, right? Because AI ⁓ has a and it a tool, it's not the end all be all. It's not the magic wand solution for a lot of things. ⁓ And from your right, the IOP world, the human world, there's a massive like gap between and what humans in the form of leadership in the form of that human interaction, right? Kevin Tamanini: You got it. You got it. There's a, term human centered AI gets thrown around so much and nobody actually, I don't think anybody can articulate what that actually means. When think about the AI space and when I think about the AI space, I think about it as three overlapping circles, a Venn diagram. one is AI acumen. I need to know what the tools are. I need to what they can do, how I can use them, how efficiency, knowledge, whatever. Jim Mayer: No, I've asked people and they don't know. Kevin Tamanini: There's AI governance around what are the boundary conditions that we should be thinking about. And then there's AI leadership. And AI leadership may be predicated on you need to have some acumen and you need to know some boundary conditions. But just like we talked about with leadership skills outside of the workplace, listen, I need to help my high school freshman daughter understand how she can use ChatGPT for class and not. It's the same things on can you experiment. Jim Mayer: Yeah. Yes. Kevin Tamanini: How can I help you understand what this means? How can you take some risks? How can you make sure you're not dealing with works a lot? But there's a leadership role that doesn't have to do specifically with Acumen. And so I think to me, those are some of the things, it's still a developing landscape, but I think people are looking at it as one of those things, not all of those things. Jim Mayer: Yeah. Love it. Love it. I think we need a part two, Kevin. This been awesome. Thank you very much for being here today, Kevin. ⁓ Ladies and gentlemen of the audience, I hope what you take away from Kevin's episode interview is that leadership affect every employee in an organization. Kevin Tamanini: Excellent. Thanks for having me. Jim Mayer: Our industry manufacturing depends on steady transitions of responsibility clear expectations. We all can be leaders within our organizations and we all have the capabilities, but we're not all right for the job. And think that if ⁓ again, take anything away, it's let's succession planning. smartly and wisely systemically systematically to make sure that we have the right people that fit our culture and fit the way that we operate. Kevin, is that a fair closing statement? All right, fantastic. I did my job. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for being here. Again, take some time to rate and review the show. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, wherever can find us. Until time, keep making things. for being here. Kevin Tamanini: Well said.