Jim Mayer: So this is a fun part. This is where it's an actual recording. of one of my shows. For those of you who aren't familiar with me, my name is Jim Maher. I have four shows that I do. have three podcasts and a YouTube channel. We are right now recording what's called the Manufacturing CulturePodcast We're going to take some of what we learned in that panel discussion. We're going to talk about that. The only caveat is we're going to hold questions this time for the very end. I know we got really hot and heavy in the questions and I love that. my job easy because I didn't have to go through my list of questions so thank you very much. So ⁓ with being said, are you guys ready for part two of this? All ⁓ right, gonna ask you guys again. ⁓ Are ready for part two of this? ⁓ See, that one was for my ego because I needed that for the intro for the show. Because then people will think, ⁓ shit, Jim has a whole lot of people here. because they don't see how many people are here, they just hear you guys in the background. So be loud and rambunctious, lots of cheering. Yay, Jim, go Jim, we love Jim. We need all of that kind of energy for this. All right. people, So in manufacturing, the magic is not necessarily in the tech itself. It's what changes ⁓ after tech is implemented. We have better measurement and better data, but don't make better parts necessarily themselves. They change how people decide, how they argue, and how they trust the numbers, and how, most importantly, the work gets done. to the Manufacturing CulturePodcast I'm your host Jim Maher. We are live, not really live, it's pre-recorded, at the Shop Floor Social with four leaders who have seen the shift towards digital transformation, measurement, and data up close. isn't going to be a marketing story. We're not going to make everybody feel really and warm and fuzzy, but I hope some your stories are warm and fuzzy. The question today is going to about how do people work, how do they embrace technology, and how do we own outcomes from technology to make the world of work better this industry, possibly solving of the problems that we talked about in the panel discussion. Fair enough? All right, gentlemen. ⁓ I'm gonna go down line here. We're gonna start with you. ⁓ I want you to give us your name, your your company.

Nate Ankrom: Nate.

Jim Mayer: and what ⁓ shop is known best for.

Nate Ankrom: Nate Ankrom I'm president at Genium Machine Products, Humble Manufacturing, Gilbert, Arizona. We're predominantly for making aerospace and defense parts, but we manufacture precise quality and guidance control and fluid management. ⁓

Jim Mayer: Bitchy. guys can cuss on this show too. ⁓ you Hexagon. I didn't get approval from Hexagon. Is that okay? Is cussing? Yeah, all right. got thumbs up. right. ⁓ you're up next.

Nate Ankrom: Lerma with ATD Precision Manufacturing. I've been with them about 20 years. It's our ⁓ anniversary we're celebrating. originally, excited,

Jim Mayer: So.

Nate Ankrom: started as a tool and die shop. So hence the name, used to be allied tool and die, we don't do a whole lot of more tool and die, hence the name change, right? So we get a more broad spectrum of what we do, full fab, full machining, a little bit of everything, right? A lot of fun.

Jim Mayer: Yeah, awesome. And you guys just launched an in-house product, right?

Nate Ankrom: so we actually guy ⁓ that and pretty much got that going is in the audience tonight, Jimmy. He built a product for our idea that our had and we took it to SEMA, it's automotive, and we actually won up product of the year in off-road office, so was pretty awesome.

Jim Mayer: Please stand up.

Nate Ankrom: The cool thing was the the competitors who were up against like you see Fox Motorsports they had their million-dollar boost and everything and here's our tiny little ⁓ know small booth and I'm just showing off our award but people loved it and it had a lot of great you know good reception for it. was awesome. ⁓

Jim Mayer: James. director of operations at paradigm space development Life support systems for space manned spaceflight as well as thermal control management system. you know, there's a where humanity isn't supposed to be

Nate Ankrom: alive we

Jim Mayer: Wow.

speaker-3: Wow.

Jim Mayer: And for you guys, that's the only shop out of this panel that I haven't been to, but I'll be down there, hopefully in the next couple of weeks, checking it out. Kevin.

speaker-3: Kevin Beach, I'm General Manager for R &D Manco. We are an aerospace machine shop on the west side of Phoenix, everything from under seas submarines to V280s to vehicles for Hyundai. So I've been for 25 years, love this industry, working with people. it.

Jim Mayer: Fun fact, Kevin Beach was one of the first people in the Valley ⁓ me into the ATMA when I arrived in the Valley 16 years ago. Kevin Beach, got a soft spot in my heart.

speaker-3: Thank you,

Jim Mayer: So Kevin, this next question's for you. And for any of you guys who have listened to any of my shows, I love icebreakers. ⁓

speaker-3: Yeah.

Nate Ankrom: I knew you were do it.

Jim Mayer: like, you're not going to ask you if my life was a movie, what genre would ⁓ be? Which is one of the icebreakers on one of my shows. Another one is ⁓ I was 16, my favorite movie was or my favorite band was. So ⁓ Kevin Beach, if your company had a mascot, what would it be? The clock's ticking. We do have a time clock. I have to catch a flight. I'm going to Salt Lake.

speaker-3: think it would probably have to be a tiger. We're not afraid of anything, to honest with you. We've taken on every project that has come to our door. Work engineering firms to redesign parts that used to be castings. Hope there are no casting houses here. They used be castings with long lead times and high prices, down to hog outs out of raw material, which are low lead time and better pricing. So we're not afraid to take on anything. So I'd say it's a tiger. All right.

Jim Mayer: All right. James? Go with a little bit of history. I would say a propeller. And that's not a pretty standard answer. But if you ever make it down to Tucson, have the history of Paragon as you enter the building. And there is an eight foot propeller. will come down and we'll explain a little bit of the history. But Paragon gets its name from the history of manufacturing precision component.

Nate Ankrom: I'd have to go. in the shop. game. as the

Jim Mayer: main propeller manufacturer for prop jets in World War I. World War I? War I. one of the founding members of Paragon, his great was a propeller manufacturer. so we're kind in a niche industry.

Nate Ankrom: But ultimately, back in the day, helping you in the air, it had to be done. So I'm

Jim Mayer: That was your sole source of keep. Had to be right. I dig it.

Nate Ankrom: would be more a part that we actually make that does a little bit of everything in all of our shop. So we actually call it the, it's a looking part, but we call it bean pot. And it's got everything that we actually do, ⁓ from forming to welding, machining, and it's odd, I can't explain what it looks like, but it actually would be really cool.

Jim Mayer: So you're like the Philadelphia Phillies out of machine shop. Right on.

Nate Ankrom: Exactly. Throw it all in there, right? You're to get something out of it. Well, I was going to say firefighter, but everyone's going to know that's not the right mascot. I would say a bear because we essentially, we're moving a little slow in some areas. We're pretty aggressive. We take care of our own. But if you piss us off, we're going to go 45, 50 miles an hour at you. And I've seen this team take a, no joke, a 26 week lead time item at. you get it from the casting and make it in seven days complete. Nice. Wow. Nice. That's That's all those guys out there. The cool part is they've done it every Christmas for the last five years. Justin and I are tired. Sip some tequila and whiskey. know, he does the whiskey and tequilas.

Jim Mayer: Whiskey. It's good stuff. What makes customers hard serve day in and day out? Let's set the stage for some problems here, right? Jamie, let's start with you.

Nate Ankrom: Critical requirements, right? You're getting a lot of prints and their standards are set really high, right? You have to meet those, get to those marks and that's key. And once we get that in, we got to have a great plan to make sure we're hitting all those key characters, you know, close tolerance stuff and that that plan's got to be solid because they're asking for it right now and ⁓ got to deliver. ⁓

Jim Mayer: Okay, James. We're an engineering firm, so the team that's made our prints is right down the street, i.e. down the hall. And so for us, 2600 requirements that were flowed to us from our OEM customer, some level of design, and then dispersing that amongst a thousand part numbers. How do you make sure that you have the templates and standards and comply?

Nate Ankrom: it's that. ⁓ folding it into a system. And then how do you manage, how do build good and maintain clients.

speaker-3: agree with James. Constantly moving forecast. I think we might have the same customer. Is us? Secondly, using third party inspection companies to check receiving inspection. And I think that is ⁓ the hardest because of the people they're hiring don't necessarily know GD &T. I think it's struggle. we're teaching them as much as the customers teaching them ⁓ how to check parts. So a big frustration for us. ⁓

Nate Ankrom: And they're not invested in it either, so that makes sense. Yeah. There's no skin in that game, right? Yep, exactly.

Jim Mayer: Nate, how about you?

Nate Ankrom: So your customer issues, our customer issues are pre, during, and post. So the pre issue is an incomplete package. We're going to start with how the RFQs and the packages that come out are incomplete. The rev locks are usually shady, meaning in other words, they don't know if it's the right spec, if it's the right flow down, if it's a component within a system. You start looking at that and you pretty much have 60%. You're guessing 40 % of time. Those things kind of hurt you. So we need complete packages. Dealing with the people on the front end usually are not, they're usually the ones in training, but we quote it, we get it, we assume some things and then guess and make sure that we're close. Every doing that. Then during it, they constantly want to know where you're at and you constantly have the oscillation ⁓ of demand volatility. That's I get it. Where did it go? just kidding. And it's not here. It's not here. And want open order reports. They want ⁓ acknowledgments the time, which is really to make their executives feel good because they don't trust their own people down below. But it's a lot of paperwork that you have to put up with when they can be actually working on improvements, working with our engineers, our QEs, and refining it down and getting our process variables to sustain. Then you the end. And Kevin, thank you.

speaker-3: Mm-hmm, per se.

Nate Ankrom: because I am tired of people that are literally looking at your parts like a tin soldier and they're essentially going, I just don't like how it looks. Okay, what's back in drawing doesn't violate. I just don't like how it looks. Well great, now you're gonna send them back, you're gonna type your own people, you're gonna send it to me, you're gonna debit my account, we're gonna sit on it, we're gonna have to send it back and now all of a sudden I lose self-release. So it's a lot of maintenance that we have to do to keep us focused and that's not all of our customers. But that's the one that we have to do, I think is find the right customer with the right work We have to remove our egos and look in the mirror sometimes and ⁓ can't make those anymore. We're way, way above here. And it's not like it's below us anymore. We just can't squeeze any more blood out of that stone.

Jim Mayer: And on that note, folks, that's been an episode. I'm just kidding. That was a really good answer. could have ended right there. That was great. Thanks, guys. So four you are up here with me today because Tate, thank you, Tate. said that you guys have modernized, right? You guys have embraced technology. You have looked at ways to problems, issues that you have in your shop in a technological way, sometimes using hexagon technology, sometimes not, right? What did your shop look like? I mean, Kevin, you've been around for 25 years. ⁓ did your shop look like before you went on this journey?

Nate Ankrom: Yep. We were just talking about.

speaker-3: So we were really good at starting 1,000 jobs not finishing any of them because we prepare. And you guys know what I'm talking about. We didn't tooling made, CMM made, CNC made. So we turned that around about five years ago. And we don't start a job unless we have everything there to finish that job. I don't care if it's a helicoil. CMM program, tool, whatever. We don't start that job until we could finish it, because we don't want to stop at all. I don't know if lot of you guys have read the book, The Goal. That's kind of what that's about, is flowing your parts basically all the way through. So that's been the biggest change, is not starting until we could finish.

Jim Mayer: James. came aboard Paragon, I a job shop in Tucson that was.

Nate Ankrom: For us, it's been consistent. 50 plus DNCs, know, $10.

Jim Mayer: job orders consistently pushing through a shop. ⁓ a directive from our president and founding member CEO, Anderson, who's.

Nate Ankrom: I had two guys in it. said, help us make stuff.

Jim Mayer: was the directive and no particular angle or direction. said, first thing we need

Nate Ankrom: to do is we need to get consistent.

Jim Mayer: consistent with our work centers, consistent with our communication, consistent everything downstream. It's having a plan and making sure you have the ability to through with that plan. He's had the fortune of coming down to our factory. of our toolbox or shadow board are the exact same. Every machinist's box is the same, every technician's box. All of has theirs. Any work center that I want to duplicate, tomorrow how to put everything and put another one in, tomorrow. ⁓

Nate Ankrom: And it's like Ken said, it's. We need to follow. So, know, tape. same. I could tell you to buy and scale. We can't do as the people. ⁓

Jim Mayer: and some other conversations earlier tonight. For us, it's consistently treating people and especially this tenured guys who have been around 20, 30 years and realize, hey, you know that youngster, might be cheating, he darn well knows that software. ⁓

Nate Ankrom: them. to bend a little bit. not no machine, but he's optimized it a heck of a lot better than you did. So get out of his way, give him that as his forte.

Jim Mayer: see that you can see all the things about Mastercam or PCDimus or this digital world that we're stepping into and allow him to scale that and it consistent for us. Love it.

Nate Ankrom: make. Say no organizations. A lot of old machines and a lot of people of just doing a lot of different things and now having set goals, set plans or anything, figuring out who's supposed to do what, asking questions, not getting answers. And now okay, now you're responsible for this, you're responsible for that. Bringing in new machines, who's gonna take charge of this? And bringing up technology getting ready for the future, right? A lot of equipment we had is definitely not going to get us there. in the last, what, that's been five, six years, definitely stepped that up. ⁓

Jim Mayer: You guys are investing a lot and seeing some cool new technology out on the floor. ⁓

Nate Ankrom: So when I got genuine and I started serving the community, that was November 2019, right before the pandemic, we had a banner year and the got pulled out. And so when the seas our boat was left at the dock. We lacked a strategy. meet together and do safety meetings. We didn't have a risk-based thinking model working we were discussing our risks. We didn't have staff meetings. We didn't have a daily accountable tier structure. We didn't have core values. So it's a turnaround, and the company didn't need to turn around. They had great people in there. They just weren't, we weren't doing this. ⁓ We weren't this engagement, and we weren't to listen to understanders so that they could be heard. ⁓ And there's a to that, because some people just need to vent, and they don't come and say, I need to vent. ⁓ come in and you're just like, are we venting right now? You kind of have to guess and now it's gotten better. mean, when I look back in the last six years, I'm really proud of those that have stuck with me through the years. It's been rocky, it's been rough. I've had a lot of great people come into the organization. We just weren't the right fit for them because we didn't have our stuff together. And I don't fault them for that. That's on me. That's on the rest of my team that I'm selecting. And I take that with me. So we're not done. We got a lot of work to do. look forward to doing it with the guys and the girls that we have down there and welcoming new members because we don't have it all figured out, but we're willing to sit down and try to.

Jim Mayer: Was there for any of you four, was there a moment that you can man, was the defining moment that those old ways weren't enough anymore?

Nate Ankrom: I'll go real quick. So this time last year we had our worst turnover. We lost, we hired about 100 people last year. We retained about 18 of them. So when you're going through that, you have to start going, what is going on? What's not working? Leadership. We had the wrong leaders in positions. We didn't have the right leaders that are in the roles today. With having the wrong leader, it just permeates and it can be a problem. Coupling that with HR, a manager at the time, that wasn't understanding the alignment to what we needed, ⁓ it even more difficult. So I had to intervene, listen into the team, and we started putting new hire roundtables together and leadership roundtables together. that everyone could be heard. The retention, since starting those in June. And when we got to the end of our year, we saw it do this. Correct. We're not losing as many people. And it's just to get them in and make them feel comfortable. When you start a new job, I don't know about you, I hate it. You don't even know where the phone is, the bathroom is, how it works. You just want to be comfortable. You don't remember your onboarding stuff at all. So you need to sit down with them. What can we go over? What did you like about the onboarding? How can we improve that? And you listen and you just start applying. And the guys have gotten great benefits out of this. They're allowed to wear shorts now year round. That was one of the criticisms. We wear shorts, it's hot, hey, I don't like it, but yeah, we'll do it. Just make sure you wear pants from the customer's shoe. we if we communicate it proactively because customers show up on a whim and ⁓ like that ⁓ wanted the 410 schedule. We started a 410 again this year. We want to build into a weekend shift I want to give my folks a balance where they can work when they need to work ⁓ play when they need to play

Jim Mayer: Love Was there a moment for any of you three?

speaker-3: So twofold, externally and internally. Internally, lead time was growing so much because we weren't finishing anything. So ⁓ whip inventory was growing tremendously. Externally, we were being turned down on quotes because our lead time was too long. OK? quoting 30-week lead time. Your competitor is quoting 16. So it was too full for us internally, externally. On the books, it was killing us externally. We weren't getting jobs.

Jim Mayer: Got it. James, Jamie, there a moment for you? I mean, Jamie, you're relatively new in this role within the last 12, 18 months. Was there a moment for you that you said ⁓ isn't enough anymore?

Nate Ankrom: Yeah, so well, before I got into the management part of this, right. So the key was I was questioning whether I wanted to stay at this company or not, right. From the former management when our new CEO Bill Jordan took over the reins finally, I kind of knew he was going to push it, right. He was going to want to make this a better place because previous management was just kind of fine. Like, hey, whatever happens happens, right. And it's just like, I don't want to do business. I want work for a place like that. And I know everybody else felt the same way. So to me, that was a turning point of all right, this is gonna be like next level. Let's do this." And he was willing to push it and every time we're looking at machines or whatever and he brings those magic words of let's do it, it's like, man, that's the feeling ever, right? Let's this happen. ⁓

Jim Mayer: For me, we struggled at Paragon with leadership for some time and, you know, for nobody's fault at all. The pandemic was hard on a lot of people. you know, at a time where we thought, we have a knight in shining armor come on, and he had to leave for health reasons. It's just like a gut punch. And for me, I remember I was sitting at home with my wife and I think at the time I was wearing about five hats in the company as most of you owners and operators can relate to. And I was running supply chain and manufacturing the factory floor. management team in our manufacturing engineering group and I had five leadership roles in the organization.

Nate Ankrom: I said, nobody's going to save this company.

Jim Mayer: or save me from how hard I'm gonna work to repair this. so, put upon myself, not just the leader that I wanted, I knew I had to

Nate Ankrom: I took it to be what I to be and I thought could be in my own factory. ⁓ team that I had built needed to get us through that time.

Jim Mayer: Either that. Now we have functioning management, functioning leadership who all share that vision, who battle with and career is the team that I built there at Paragon. In the 23 years I've been doing this and working in this industry, the things that I've

Nate Ankrom: who I'd go to bath with any day of the week. I tell you, the pinnacle of my... I've made, the places I've got to go. to go to work every day with those 40 people.

Jim Mayer: camera. Nothing kicks more ass than that. Oh yeah, that's awesome. I mean, I talk a lot about how do we weaponize pride, how do we weaponize legacy, and you're doing that right there, right? When you show up like that every day and you've got that fire and that passion and you're proud of what you do, everybody else in that shop feeds off of that energy, man. So well done. That's awesome. When you guys recognize that you needed to make a change, I'm going off script, fuck this. When you guys realized that you needed to make a change, who was it that needed to change first? Was it the shop floor? Was it the office? Because every shop I've ever been in has that front and back of the house, there's a wall, it's Game of Thrones, the vibe. was it leadership? Because there really three functions within each shop. You've got floor, front office. leadership, who had to change first to make these changes a reality?

Nate Ankrom: Definitely leadership as far as we go, right? You know, I mean, you've been there, right? I mean, it was a matter of do we want to make little widgets or we want to make badass parts, right? mean, and are you going to make the investment, the equipment, get the right people in there, make that happen.

Jim Mayer: Is that fairly common?

speaker-3: leadership but you had to get employee buy-ins for us. You know what mean? You can't sit a job on your desk for two days for a review or whatever. Everything fast. you had get buy-in. So we had meetings with all the employees ⁓ to talk what we were here. We're trying to reduce time so we can stay successful still grow.

Jim Mayer: Where was the resistance?

speaker-3: change manufacturing gets a lot of resistance. ⁓

Jim Mayer: Yeah, it does. I'm gonna be the only one who cusses on my own show.

speaker-3: But unless you explain it to them in ways they can understand it as far as, listen, if we grow, you make more money. We get better bonuses if we grow. That's what they listen to. yeah, yeah, change is hard.

Jim Mayer: Change is hard, but people love change. people didn't love change, we'd all dress the same, we'd eat the same food, we wouldn't travel anywhere, we be homebodies, right? People love change. It's just people love change that they have a say in. So for you, was the biggest resistors?

Nate Ankrom: time? I when I first got there, Brad, our owner, brought me in ⁓ and I've a great relationship with him since the 90s. so he brings me in, it was kind of unannounced. And so that was kind of like a rug pullout from underneath him. So back then it was really tough, six years ago. But For me, would say you still have to lead the charge and you still have to bring the right energy the team and to the topic. And ⁓ if you're having a rough life situation, I've had some rough life situations. You still have to show up. How's weekend? Are you guys ready to go? And you got to kind of ⁓ ignore yourself little bit. that's infectious. I see the right leaders that are now installed in this leadership. And you're looking for good person more than you are looking someone that that's capable and have the KSAs, the knowledge, skills, and attributes. You need someone that's gonna be a good human, act like a filter too, their behavior, so you can put them in the right positions for success, and sure that they're not feeling attacked too while you're doing it. It's like, I'm not attacking you, I just don't like this attitude, I just don't like this tone, I just don't like, and talk to them like a human and get them to understand, it's still a battle that we're fighting day, but the battle has definitely gotten a lot easier. ⁓ with the right people. they're just following my lead. And follow theirs now in a lot of cases, which is pretty awesome to see the full circle.

Jim Mayer: mean, been through it. A couple of people in here have been through leadership development trains that I've done, right? It's a lot like parenting.

Nate Ankrom: Yeah, you're parent or a psychiatrist?

Jim Mayer: Legally, I've found, I've discovered in my time in owning my company, can't legally call yourself a therapist unless you're licensed. Yeah. Coach, yes. But it's a like parenting because if I were go to my 11 year old boy and say, hey, I don't like your attitude. And he says, well, don't like me then, You have to walk that fine line of. I like who you are. I think you're a good person. I don't like this behavior that I see out of you, right? Because in day and age, people leave ⁓ if say, hey, I ⁓ like you just did here. You have to lay it out for them.

Nate Ankrom: You kind of have, so there's a word from one of my mentors that I use when I'm coaching my team. You have to use care frontation. have to be careful and you have to confront the issue. So you have to kind of blend the two and it's like, look, we're going to hit it head on and will respect you more. You don't like hearing it, but guess what? You're going to respect me more about me telling them the truth of what I saw happen ⁓ versus fluffing you off and then you go off and then I have an attitude, I'm silent treatment or ignoring it. We've all seen that. We've all done that. And we realize it's ineffective. So hit them right between the eyes, sure you're being professional. I wouldn't even say that. Give them decorum. Take them away, ⁓ them down, just get them to you what's really going on. And they'll you. And you'll be surprised at how many people leave those meetings going, thank you. ⁓ I needed know that. I needed someone, or thanks for kicking me in the ass. I needed it. Because every 90 days, we tend to reset. We go up, we go back down, we go up. That's why we these 90 day team Analyzers that we do just just for that just hey, this is where you're doing We need to improve here you want to see him do that and ⁓ they're still doing this you got some work to do

Jim Mayer: Going to that digital transformation route, right? Whether that's hardware, metrology, hardware, software, whatever that looks like. Kevin, you were, in my view, one of the first to embrace machine monitoring here in the Valley. I remember going on a tour of your shop back when you had first implemented that, probably 12, 13 years ago, something like that. was that digital like for you and how did that change the way you looked ⁓ at your and ⁓ the that led to you going through that process?

speaker-3: So it changed a lot of things. mean, we embraced Predator utilization software all 30 of our machines about 14 years ago. OK? I was close. A little hard sell for the people on the floor, ⁓ know? But you had to explain why this is important to them. We used it for several years. It changed our perception of certain employees because One person you thought was maybe a big bullshitter, like they would be talking to everybody, and you really didn't think they were that great of an employee, it turns out he had the best utilization of anybody in the shop. knew how to talk and run a machine at the same time, ⁓ could be hard. So changed how we give raises, how we treat people.

Nate Ankrom: figured it out.

speaker-3: We've since evolved because utilization only tells one part of the story, uptime of the spindle. That's basically it. And it's good data. There's nothing wrong with it. But it's truly about throughput. And we measure throughput now. Hours we got paid for today that we got done. That's all we measure. We bounce that with utilization. But that is our biggest measurement. And it'll tell the true story. measure how many hours you got paid for today. Throughput. right? ⁓

Jim Mayer: I like it. You've evolved even past that original stance of... ⁓

speaker-3: Utilization got us started down the digital path basically. throughput finished our path. And straight out of VRP. Again, Power very powerful tool. if you haven't heard of it, check it out.

Jim Mayer: Jamie, you guys are just now exploring the same technology. How's that transforming you are?

Nate Ankrom: So been really good. We tried it before. And the biggest thing is the company we're kind of partnering up with, like, it got all the data we wanted, right? But it's like, what do do with this data now? If I don't have an IT expert and somebody that can write code, it's just sitting there, right? So partnering up with the right company really changed the game. They're doing all the hard work for me. I tell them this is what I need. They're giving me that info. ⁓ it's like, Totally completely different ballgame. it's been super amazing, the information that you get, just like Kevin said, it changes your aspect of everything that's going on out there and the people you thought, well, is this guy on my out the door list or is this guy, know? And like, whoa, wait a minute here. Yeah, So been amazing. We've been really happy with it and we're still kind of the sea with the newer way we're doing it, but it's been ⁓ fantastic. ⁓ it hook up with our ERP Systems X and just getting much of that information out there that we can.

Jim Mayer: What was the roadblock the first time around? Was it the employees? Was it the data you collected?

Nate Ankrom: That was the thing, right? The data we collected and just, right, they had basic report stuff and it's like, okay, well I could have done that myself, right? Getting the next level information is what I'm looking for just not having the right guy, having the right guy, losing the right guy, and then not be able to find the right guy to able to get back on track, right?

Jim Mayer: James, you ⁓ down a similar path and what was that like for you and your team? ⁓

Nate Ankrom: of technologies, the software, ourselves some honest questions, especially because machine shop is six machines. We don't have.

Jim Mayer: massive capacity. So have to treat every hour as pressure. So when we go in to the software, something used to help us, first off, it better fucking help us.

Nate Ankrom: We're going to make an investment in the course that we're going to.

Jim Mayer: Yes, I got another F-bomb and it wasn't all me. Nice. Secondly, is this worth the investment? Are we going to actually implement something that's going to, back to, is it going to help us? And are we collecting data for data's sake so we can check the box with some PM who's going to come down here and be like, I want to know DPPM. OK, great. We made 40 parts last month. It doesn't fit our industry. making sure it's in alignment with what our goals. And as Kevin put it, is it important

Nate Ankrom: Thank you Thank you. ⁓ It's important to Can we really just. ⁓

Jim Mayer: justify the expense, the headache, the pushback, all of those things, and is it going to be too much of a pain?

Nate Ankrom: to want to actually implement it or it could be something, hey, some of us are able to understand, let's help sway that 30 % and really push them to understand how this is going to be beneficial to us long term. So my team knows I love software as a service. use several. We've looked at, I'll call it the higher end data-nomics. And ⁓ when look at those things and you realize the product that you're getting is really a web-based HTTPS page and they're putting all these sensors on and it's $50,000.

Jim Mayer: Yeah, what about you Nick? You know pain

Nate Ankrom: and then you gotta spend 30 grand a year. I had a problem with that. We went to someone who was lesser and you put the sensors on and it tells you this, can learn Power BI. So we've been flirting with the idea. Again, I'm back to having and attracting and retaining the right resources. So we've got who's here tonight. He's very talented and ⁓ so is a disinhibited free thinker and I love that about him. He's really Justin and the operations team understand how to see the data. He and I are on, well, we can probably figure that. out and we can probably create our own and we can probably have self-sustaining and then go market it out the back door at a price that's a lot more affordable to all of you. So, I'll let you know.

Jim Mayer: How did you describe him, a disassociated free thinker?

Nate Ankrom: a disinhibited free thinker. there is no box with Scott, and that's what I love. Sometimes we put walls up, sometimes we put people in boxes within a box, and don't do that. ⁓ be pleasantly surprised, and it's awesome, and you kind of just run with that. Let's see what happens as long as it doesn't kill the company. With the software, they know I want to monitor. We definitely need to, ⁓ Justin I know that we've got to get buy-in. We've got to get these guys understanding why. So the throughput's missing from our metrics. We have productivity and efficiency. What we want to do is we want to get it down to the Nat's ass where it's like that machine based off that cycle time you should have 1.2 parts an hour. 1.2 parts an hour. know that one's 6.8 and that way at the end of the shift, the end of the day, you know exactly how many you should have and that's just pulling something right out of Carnegie back when in the steel mills in Pittsburgh when he didn't like the shifts. Thank you. Exactly. We all seen that story. haven't shift was only doing three mill runs he wrote four in the middle of the floor ⁓ then the team came in ⁓ did they cross it out five and they just got into a competition so we need to make it fun we need to make it so that they have buy-in to it really not up you know there you know what with ⁓ a freaking but we're trying to get ⁓ an understanding why is that sitting and and the operators over here so as long as the machine sitting like with the utilization we like that guy's always talking talking all the time, holy crap, we figured it out, right? I've got guys that figured it out, you know? And so it's one of those that we want to get buy-in for. We are digitized everywhere else. We just aren't sensing and doing all the IOT just yet. Got it.

Jim Mayer: Right on. All right, so gonna run the risk, because I've gone completely off script on this one, of really setting guys up for failure one way or the other. So this is ⁓

Nate Ankrom: Yes.

speaker-3: We're used to it.

Jim Mayer: we get these guys shots? Everybody except ⁓ Good, because he's first on this question. James. sir.

Nate Ankrom: You

Jim Mayer: I know we're at a Hexagon event. So Hexagon doesn't have to be the answer though to this question. Is there one piece of hardware that you've invested in in your time at Paragon that has changed the game to the point that it has made life easier for the people who work for you? Yes, and this is gonna be a Hexagon answer, but not because this is a Hexagon event. Okay, so fun story. There you guys go. Tate actually called me December of 2022, roughly, on there. I believe it was a Tuesday, because most way back Wednesdays were on a Tuesday. It was a cold and rainy day. It was gorgeous in December, of course.

Nate Ankrom: We're 68 degrees out. Blockchain on recording everything

Jim Mayer: So Tate gives me a call. ⁓ we were shopping around for a large bed CMM, because at the time we were making body mount radiators for a particular customer. this year. And part of technology was having to go the painstaking.

Nate Ankrom: where he's about to launch the you ⁓

Jim Mayer: task of you got a hundred inch long plus radiator with true pose of ten all over this thing, a real just nightmare. You're also talking about a welded piece of extruded material into a flat panel that has to be 20 over that hundred inches. Nobody wants to sit there all day with a fricking scanner or a roamer arm and beep all these holes and get all. So take calls me and says, I got something on the dock. We had a last minute canceling this said.

Nate Ankrom: Riveting. flat across. 14 days.

Jim Mayer: from the time you called me till it was on our Just under the two weeks. On site at our rigging company ready to go get it in. Back to your original question, what had to change in leadership was we had to go impress our leadership. Your finance department say, look, don't think of this as spending capital. Think of this as an investment. ⁓

Nate Ankrom: Mwah. stop. particularly our an investment in our future.

Jim Mayer: Because last time I checked, these are six, seven missions that are going to be launching.

Nate Ankrom: guys were under this thing they're gonna want more of these burn a tree ⁓ a

Jim Mayer: up on re-entry, a great business model for us, but we're gonna have to keep making it. Do you wanna spend 100 plus hours inspecting them every time they come through the shop? So for us, the automation that we were able to get through a head, really was a game changer for us because quality at the time was not scalable. We had, I think, four machines and out producing every inspection methodology that we had. Having a DCC CMM with tool change capabilities, scanning, probing, all these things,

Nate Ankrom: product. We are. being able to run parts like.

Jim Mayer: out integrating fixturing, standardization of not only the work holding on our CMM, but back to the machine. You know, if we dovetail a part in the machine, dovetail it, it in the CMM. Hey, look at that. Now suddenly we have to do the same thing for zero point. We're saying, let's lock and load. If it's going to load in the machine that way, load it into CMM fixturing the same way. Then you've got repeatability, standardization, and that was really a game changer for Paragon. I love it.

Nate Ankrom: So now we're taking our zero point fixture.

Jim Mayer: Kevin, what about you? You've had a lot of really cool technology in your shop over the years.

speaker-3: So agree with James. ⁓ preparation, CMM programs, modular tooling, hexagon CMM, love it. I'm gonna pivot a little bit and talk about another product, a spree, okay? A spree, we use it for CNC programming. We used to be a big Gibbs camp shop and... Gibbs cam doesn't support five axis simultaneous like we would like it to. So we switched to a spree about six years ago and it has been a game changer. We cutting parts that you wouldn't believe in areas that we shouldn't be. So, ⁓ you ⁓

Nate Ankrom: You

Jim Mayer: How's that affected the people? I had asked about hardware, but I love the answer. So how's that affected the people in your programming department that are working on

speaker-3: They love it, they love it. The support they get from Hexagonisbrick is tremendous. to run, Randy, you can correct me if I'm wrong, one of the most powerful programming tools out there, you know, is pretty auxiliary-informed.

Jim Mayer: Jamie?

Nate Ankrom: I hate to continue the commercial, like, know, we. ⁓ but like, you know, we brought in a lot of five axis equipment, mill turn centers, right? Stuff like that. And I'm still coming in and watching my inspector break down ⁓ complicated on this old K-2000 Brown and Sharp, which awesome machine still, right? But taking forever to do, right? Tate.

Jim Mayer: Remember I promised these people it wasn't a commercial.

Nate Ankrom: My man, of course, comes in, I got a solution for you. Let's look into this, right? And it definitely changed the game of being able to keep those parts rolling through there, And Bill, our CEO, still loves walking into that room and saying, this is the Ferrari of CMMs and this is my favorite room, right? And it was, it definitely a game changer. We wouldn't be able to keep continuing doing the parts we do without that just awesome equipment. having the amazing programmers that we have, right?

Jim Mayer: What about you, Nick?

Nate Ankrom: mean, it's several. I'll stop with the commercial, I guess. I that if look at, we get great support, from Tate. And I'm sure it's going to continue as he transitions to ⁓ a newer career path. But reality of it is that we have some ingenuity. We have two PC, me, two DCC CMMs, a global and a smaller unit. regardless, global sees a lot. have enough probe stations. what do do? We printed some more. We have up to, I think, 15, 20 stations right now. And it integrates right in. And we've taught where all the positions are. So just that ingenuity has allowed us to put more complex parts, stand them up, walk around the entire parks we have, the scanning head, coupling it with a great relationship with our MLC CAD. We SOLIDWORKS. And we have like one seat of shares, in the butt. were publishing blueprints, full blueprints, two sides. going out to the shop. Wow. Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry, inspectors and prior inspectors that work for us. ⁓ we've done is we started to model everything and trim it down to just give them what they're working on. It's easier for the machinists. It's easier for the engineer. It's definitely easier for quality because now you just have a. ⁓ I'd say that right there has been a huge game changer. They know I want to invest in more equipment, but my biggest investment has been in my people. And just getting them to see what I'm saying, getting them out of their own way that we all have sabotaging thoughts, teaching them some tricks. that have helped me in my life as I'm learning and still growing. And so been an investment in them because future is still gonna be human. I know that we're all talking about AI. We've talked about automation. Folks, you're still gonna be in the shop learning how to program it, diagnose it, maintain it, charge it, order some more. We're not going away. They're just working with us, not against us. So say embrace it. I don't say trust it completely. But I definitely say keep an open mind, work with it. And and what we do as businessmen and women and as leaders is we have to constantly evolve. The day we decide to become complacent and the day we decide to stop evolving is the day we lost and we're dying. Yeah, ⁓ agree. that's great. leadership and what we do as businessmen and women as leaders is we have to constantly evolve. The day we decide to become complacent and the day we decide to evolving is the day we lost and we're dying.

Jim Mayer: didn't want to say anything. I wanted that to just hang there for a minute. So the best I could do was fucking clap. Cover your mic next time. So of your employees, bearded, beautiful gentleman over there, asked us the break in between the sessions, a couple of us as we walked over to the bar here at the big bar. about automation and do we necessarily look to get people interested this trade if we're just gonna start automating everything? And I think your last answer touched on that a little bit, right? Expand how automation and the human the element of manufacturing in your mind can work together to create this awesome new future.

Nate Ankrom: We have seven autonomous machine centers. I'm not gonna name the brands, it doesn't matter. But we have seven of them. So we have to shift our mindset from becoming a machinist and an operator to an orchestrator. how are they gonna shift? We have to lead them, we have to show them, we have to give them the tools, and we have to start removing the obstacles. And so that's the biggest thing is shifting to becoming an orchestrator of production. We also have to invest in our own team going and getting automation training when we start to do robots, cobots, or Optimus Prime or whatever's out there that's gonna be delivering some things, or the little trucks that Amazon uses. So possibilities endless when I sit and think about it.

Jim Mayer: What about you, Jamie?

Nate Ankrom: Yeah, so like Nate said, man, I mean, we're going to use it as another tool that's going to be available to us, right? And automation, so we don't do high production stuff, but we still have a lot of parts rolling through there. So palletizing and creating much spindle time as possible and ⁓ working a new project with tape to automate our CMMs because it's just sitting there at night. We don't have anybody running it, right? And we have many parts flowing through there. So the next step is bring that along as well. So ⁓ definitely you're going need those people to interact with everything and use the automation, the AI, everything as another tool that we're gonna use in the shop, right?

Jim Mayer: So I'm going to pause real quick before I go on to you two. I had the opportunity to be at Hexagon Live last summer in Las Vegas, they rolled out their robot. And it was the coolest fucking humanoid robot I have ⁓ ever

Nate Ankrom: How tall was it? Was it like this tall?

Jim Mayer: No, was life-size, man. reason that made it so, in my mind, amazing compared to the other humanoids out there, A, they put it on wheels. So you don't have the mobility, ⁓ shakiness. exactly. Terminator, Robocop, from the 80s. The original right? But they also didn't it look as human as some of the other humanoids. And I think by nature scare the shit out of people, ⁓ Standing next to what looks something out of a sci-fi movie that you grew up watching, right? Jamie, how soon until ATD has a hexagon humanoid in your running your CMS?

Nate Ankrom: I mean, know, money talks, man. mean, when that price hits our point, I mean, we're in. Exactly. ⁓

Jim Mayer: All right, James, to you. What's the future of automation and the human nature in your shop? think it's really easy.

Nate Ankrom: easy for us to determine that automation, when we think of that as a phrase, we automatically turn to robots, know, pallet changers, all these things that are running parts. But what about running the factory? What about training our AI modules, like Paragon has internally, we own our own AI module, we procure it, and essentially I'm training myself out of

Jim Mayer: bots. Have we thought? job here, but going to become my quality manager. It's going to help us on. It's going to make decisions or help inform. So offloading the spirit of Kaizen, how are you taking lowest level.

Nate Ankrom: Form decisions at a rapid pace. the continuous improvement, making that level in your organization as a decision maker and helping inform your team. Automate, hey, my schedule. If we're making of everything, but we still have 1,000 parts to make, that's a challenge to juggle anywhere on any work center. How do we?

Jim Mayer: And for us, that's what it is. It's all getting the things. It helped me optimize my three. That's a change. Ask the AI. Help with this. Help me figure out, based on so-and-so's scrapbook, what start to leverage.

Nate Ankrom: jobs I should be giving them in the future. To be a free thinker and to take us into that next step. making in my opinion is the future of It's not just for. Same with additive. I've told since I started in this career, additive is gonna. ⁓

Jim Mayer: Robotics have been around for ages. knock us out of a job. Yeah. Okay. We'll go print 6061 T651 and then. You gave a big like, fuck you. Added up industry right there, man. And not to not to shit on our friends, but there will always be. Yeah. Just I don't I'm getting there.

Nate Ankrom: We'll talk.

speaker-3: the five-tenths tolerance.

Nate Ankrom: know, they're not machining. It's just a matter of that they see that and that's okay. There's a place to optimize that. Finding that balance is what's gonna be critical for manufacturing in the future. You wanna train students, get them reined in with the sexy equipment, get them reined in with all those flash. Retain them with the fact that nobody else is gonna replace them, including the AI and it's that partnership.

Jim Mayer: for both of us to exist in this world and to operate. with all the

Nate Ankrom: It's a tool in your belt. It's not there to take your job. The same as the robot.

Jim Mayer: You are, you become a manager of the table of machines here. Now, ⁓ Let's go. Let's get it done.

Nate Ankrom: Hold.

speaker-3: So we have the same type of automated solutions, basically palette machine. And the most beautiful thing about them is not only you get lights out manufacturing, but you get an expert machinist that can leave that machine during the day and go train your apprentices. we have two of our top machinists running a 10-pallet and a 6-pallet machine. And never there during the day, and the machine's running because they're training other people.

Nate Ankrom: Right.

speaker-3: That's the best thing about it, I think.

Jim Mayer: Last IMTS, we're in an IMTS year, Oak Ridge National Labs ⁓ in the main lobby there, the main causeway, a convergent manufacturing system, machining, welding, quality, all in ⁓ one cell. And their is to get people to be able to run it ⁓ all, ⁓ Systems not operator, right? I think that's the coolest freaking idea that I've seen in a long time is to get all those processes in one cell, working in tandem, one person can go in, they own a part, start to finish, right? Guys, I've got one more question then we're going to open up to any questions out here because do have a raffle. People want to win some prizes before I have to get on a plane. So in one what the future of manufacturing to you? Kevin, we're going to start with you.

speaker-3: future. have to, somebody has to make the parts, right? Like you said, automation is not going to solve everything. You still have to have that machine coordinator or machine operator or whatever you want to call it years from now to make that part.

Jim Mayer: James. ⁓

Nate Ankrom: about manufacturing in our industry is planning. It's two, three generations down the line. It's not being short-sighted. It's not being near-sighted. It's saying, I started a company in this five years. How do I make it to 10? How do I make it to 15? How do I make it to 25? And that's in this room tonight. We've got that amongst all of us. The reason we're here is because we wanted to learn something. We wanted to gain from each other. It's relationships, those connections. None of us are out to get one another.

Jim Mayer: Thinking. see that. here because we like what we do. fun. It comes, you have to plan to win. that's my goal. Love it. Jamie.

Nate Ankrom: I'd say still exciting. still have that drive and passion everything from when first started till now because it's evolving, changing, it's new people coming in, it's ⁓ excitement still Every position I've been with, I mean there's always something new and there's just always something exciting to do, Like you always we make cool shit. ⁓

Jim Mayer: Course.

Nate Ankrom: I wanted to say passionate because you can't spell it without Nate, right? But really, going to have to go with synchricity. if you like that one, right? You borrow it.

Jim Mayer: got off the rails

Nate Ankrom: I'll start over. So I would say synchricity because we're going to have to sync up our machine tools, old controls, with the new way of manufacturing. I think that looks vastly different from what we... I've sat in Justin's office and talked about this and Scott's office has talked about this. think you're going to have tool changers on your new machines. I don't even think you're going have a control on your new machine. I think you're going to have bots running the tools to a tool ready station. I don't think you're going to have anyone sitting there manning it. You're going to have a cobot humanoid. I think you're going to have the main foreman for that line making sure all the inspection cues are coming in. And think it's pretty interesting, probably printer-ish type of machines. And ⁓ Disney ⁓ you look this up. ⁓ It a few weeks ago. ⁓ They printed in gel. So they took a ⁓ one by one meter, all they're able to do right now is rubber and silicone, okay? But if you can do this in rubber and silicone where there's no pre posts, there's no supports ⁓ just literally printing and gel pull it out wash it off ⁓ products done. No post treating nothing needed So I think it's a matter of time ⁓ our machines are gonna catch up and the builders have to catch up and the builders have to Work metrology and this is gonna be interesting But at the same time it's gonna be exciting. We're gonna learn a hell of a lot And we're just like, can we get this out of our head? Like Phil was saying, I got to get this out of my head. But I feel like that's the way we're going. We got to sync up everything with software, automation, AI, and our CNC.

Jim Mayer: All right, so we've got time for a couple of questions here. What didn't I ask this panel in this episode? And if I did that good, all right, I didn't do that good of a job. Hold on, we got a microphone coming to you.

Nate Ankrom: Hahaha

speaker-3: Hello, name is Chris Ardans. This is the first event like I have been to. Thank you for the invite, Tate, as well as Exagon, putting this on. So forgive me if this question has already been asked, because as I identified, I showed up late. So you can tell me to... ⁓

Nate Ankrom: you know.

Jim Mayer: Watch the video. It's all good.

speaker-3: So my background, I started machinist, close to 10 years, three, four, five axis, then progressed to mechanical design drafting, and now do the engineering work, as well as, you know, a little bit of sprinkle of supervisory. I only heard it mentioned once, perhaps twice, about the training and investing in your employees. The various shops that I worked at before I landed where I've been for close to six years right now, there has been a lot of talk of investment in employees. We want to train you, but when push comes to shove, we need a job around. So my question pertains to the automation, with the training, what your plan to actually accomplish that?

Jim Mayer: Great question. Wish you were here for the last session. Just kidding.

speaker-3: all-hand meetings. ⁓

Nate Ankrom: Hey.

Jim Mayer: I get it, man. I get it. I'm your chops. ⁓ ahead, guys.

speaker-3: you talking about machine wise automation on who going to support that machine or actually training? All of the because I've seen in my background. So us at R we lean ⁓ on Gateway, lean on for internal training. For machine specific training we lean on OEM, you know, in our case it's Akuma. We lean on them heavily for training and machine seven axis lays, that kind of stuff. But yeah, have our own internal apprenticeship program. That's awesome.

Nate Ankrom: prepare, a small group, and implement a new technology, a new software, a new addition, Simcoe programming, for instance, out of Mastercam. We sat one guy down and we said, you're gonna go and learn this ⁓ inside and And then when you're done learning that, you're gonna go teach everybody else. And you're gonna write it down as a process. So as a process-driven, matrixed organization, we have that of detailed documentation so that ⁓ that person decides, I found greener pastures,

Jim Mayer: So when we implement. .

Nate Ankrom: By all means, take that opportunity. encourage my team to explore what's out there. At the end of the day, they want to stay at Paragon because we give them those opportunities. And I think we talked about this on the break, is having a matrix organization, but then matrices those. different positions within your organization. So having a machinist level one, two, three, four, what does that mean and what does that skill tree look like at each of those levels? So that you can break that down and say, hey, can take a career path in five axes, but in order to support that, you also need to know the probing. You need to be able to inspect complex geometries. I want you to have qualities back and make sure you're implementing good product to them the first time before turn that part in. And so it's having that open conversation, that open dialogue to make sure that the expectations are met on both sides.

Jim Mayer: So I.

Nate Ankrom: when they can demonstrate proficiency that by all means pay the man or

Jim Mayer: Jamie?

Nate Ankrom: mean, bringing the unskilled, right, trying to get them trained through, you know, we want to create an environment to set up to succeed and not fail. And, you know, ⁓ having worked with people and running through like Nate has with their apprentice shop, starting in the solid room, and starting in our shared room, moving material, right, understanding of how everything flows. When we cycle through that, we'll know. Who's gonna be a good fit? Who's not gonna work out? I mean, it's finding people that are gonna come in and starting with the basics. Can you be a good employee? Can you show up? Can you listen? Can you And moving from there. We don't need everybody coming right out of school, but it definitely helps when Dave's got a great program over there and they start, get that great base for it. But it's not always gonna work out that way. And just trying to create a nice program to succeed.

Jim Mayer: Nope. ⁓

Nate Ankrom: So we've got multiple approaches. don't know if you missed the first part. So we've actually got four tracks that we run. So you're brand new to the industry, you're a U. We call you U, underskilled or unskilled. And so we to expose you to the tool room. We call it MSD because it's not just a tool room. We have fixturing in there. We have gauging in there. We have gauge stackups, calibration, ⁓ and like. And we're feeding mills and lanes. So they're going to get a vernacular. They're going to understand our lingo. They're going to see our paperwork. And after months, if they need more time, we keep them in there, some guys and girls go nine months or 12 months and then we'll move them and we expose them so that they can start to pick and go, you know, I kind of want to work in the mills. I haven't been exposed to it. And so then Justin will start looking with his team if that's a viable option or not or no, we want you in manuals first because now you're going to understand how that cutter is, is the harmonics coming off of it. Is that a, is that a good sound or is that a bad sound? And so, so we, have that track and then we have, um, uh, what we were discussing earlier, Phil brought it up, talked how we have folks that are aging out that don't want to sit at home. ⁓ They to get away from their spouse or significant other. They don't want to piss them too much. So they want 10, 20 hours. ⁓ And right what we have is we have our senior machinists are literally with the guys that are in their first few years. And they're constantly monitoring them, not all the time. But ⁓ by year three, usually don't need a lot of help. You're still a go-to. They're still like that big brother that they can look up to and go talk to. Because you want a friend in the shop when you start. other aspect is the leadership team. So I have a leadership program that I've developed over the past year that we're launching tomorrow. We start with all of our nine leaders, I think is what we have in it, Justin, sound right? Nine. Nine leaders that are going through it. And it's covering everything that you're going to see that you would see at the emerging leaders or that you're going to see in azMEP. Why am I doing it? We have to have an in-house program. I'm not saying my stuff's the best. I want you to go to azMEP. I want you to go to emerging leaders. I want you to get triangulated so it gets you thinking. I want people that are thinking. We need doers, but really we also as leaders have to identify who's the doer, who's the thinker, who's the thinker doer. And that way we can go, okay, this is the person that we said that's just gonna run, they love doing. This is the person that's gonna start going, I don't like how that works, and I think that's the thinker, start improving it. The thinker doer is the one that's on the line that's starting to connect all the dots. ⁓ are usually pretty much your next leader up. And think that the leadership program is important for us because I wanna give back to my community. want to leave a blueprint that I think is going to work. It's perfect. I expect them to expose all the deficiencies in it so we can make it better. And then we have a program that we can now offer to aspiring leaders. So ⁓ any the leaders in here that get tapped, hey, I to go up. Okay, ⁓ all right. you meet the values? If you're meeting the values consistently, it's an easy decision for the leader to say, okay, you need to go into the aspiring leader track. It's not as intense. and feedback going on because right now they have to take an assessment of how they look on communication, conflict resolution, emotional intelligence, and I can go on and on, I'm not gonna do that. But they have. you. Thank you. You're welcome. I'm look-atious. Essentially I think you have to have, the top has to be coached. If you look at every athlete, whether you like sports or not, they're all being coached. No matter what. Tiger Woods, being coached. Michael George, being coached. And so we have to coach ourselves, I have to be coached, and then we can't just worry about this layer that we're building up, we have to also meet them in the middle. So we have to do both simultaneously, in my opinion.

Jim Mayer: Great answers, guys. ⁓ you have other questions for our panelists, I apologize. Take offline. We're not going to record it. Meet them ⁓ next to stage afterwards, after we do the raffle drawing. Guys, I want to ask you as the audience, was this a good use of your time? You've been here for a couple hours at this ⁓ point. Thank you very much. want to thank my panelists, Nate, Jamie, James, Kevin. Three of you have been friends for a long time. I made a new friend, James. you bringing me into fold and ⁓ sharing and being vulnerable. ⁓ All four of thank you very much. So can we get a round of applause for them?

speaker-3: Excellent job.

Jim Mayer: Thank you. None of this would have been possible without Hexgon. Adam, William, and Tate. Sorry, Sorry. ⁓

Nate Ankrom: So well.

Jim Mayer: Tate for finding these guys, Adam for coming to me and saying, hey, what do you think? What can we do? And this idea is phenomenal, Hexagon and team that you have, you guys have an amazing culture. You have an amazing team. Thank you very much for putting this on tonight. You guys deserve a huge Most importantly, thank you guys for being here. You showed up. You didn't have to. You guys, a lot of you start work at 4, 5, 6 AM every day. And it's now 7 o'clock. And you're like, fuck, man. I want to go to bed. I appreciate you guys being here for being willing to sit through an hour and a half of programming of five dudes on a stage right now. This is awesome that you all are here. For those of you who are tuning in, thank you for being a part of this. This has been a really cool experience. We've done I've never done before for this show. And I think it was successful. So thank you everybody. This has been an amazing experience. I appreciate you all so much. you again. You're going to raffle some stuff off, right? Yes.

speaker-3: Before we get to the raffle, I want to make sure did everybody get a ticket? late comers not get one? All right. Good job.