Dave: Welcome back to the Church On Mission Podcast, the podcast of the CRA. I'm Dave Jones. As always, I'm here with Jim Book. And in our last episode, we spent some time talking about mentorship roles and and working collaboratively with other individuals in leadership and one of those things that that comes up are these moments of discouragement. And it reminded us of first Kings chapter nineteen. When Elijah has just come off the greatest victory you could ever imagine, just putting to shame the the prophets of Baal. And in in chapter nineteen he ends up in a situation where he's running from Jezebel, and in verse nine it says, He came there to a cave and lodged, and behold, the word of the Lord came to him, and he said to him, What are you doing here, Elijah? And he said, I have been very zealous for the Lord the God of hosts, for the sons of Israel have forsaken your covenant. Torn down your altars and killed your prophets with the sword, and I alone am left, and they seek my life to take it away. It's one of those moments that I've experienced in ministry, usually on a Monday morning, when I thought things would have gone a lot better on Sunday than they did. And and here Elijah is in

James Book: I'm

Dave: the cave, probably on a Monday, dealing with the same thing that so many of us deal with, Jim. Yeah, I think it was Roger Chambers who was one of my professors in Bible college that said, more.

James Book: Yeah, I think it was Roger Chambers who was one of my professors in Bible college that said, more resignation letters have been written on Monday than any other day of the week for preachers. Yeah, I think we've all been there. We've all felt as if, am I the last man standing? Am I the only one in this church that cares about growth and expansion and vision? And by the way, Satan would love nothing more.

Dave: resignation letters have been written on Monday than any other day of the week for preachers. yeah, I think we've all been there. You know, we've all felt as if am I the last man standing? Am I the only one in this church that cares about growth and expansion and vision? And by the way, Satan would love nothing more

James Book: than to fuel that mentality. He gets the biggest kick when preachers internalize and

Dave: than to fuel that mentality. He gets the biggest kick when preachers internalize and

James Book: play the woe is me game. And man, Elijah had it down. I mean, he should have gotten an Academy Award for this because, you know, he really did feel he was abandoned by God. And what did he do? He ran, number one, which is what Satan wants us to do, run for my responsibility, okay? Number two, hide. And again, as we mentioned at last episode, mold.

Dave: And play the woe is me game. And man, Elijah had it down. I mean, he he should have gotten an Academy Award for this because you know he really did feel he was abandoned by God. And what did he do? He ran, number one, which is what Satan wants us to do, run for my responsibility. Okay. Number two, hide. And again, as I mentioned, we mentioned at the last episode, mold

James Book: grows best in dark places when it's isolated. So does anger, so does fear, so does frustration. So he's hiding.

Dave: grows best in dark places when it's isolated. So does anger, so does fear, so does frustration. So he's hiding.

James Book: And then he begins to question the sovereignty of God, God's power. And that's exactly what Satan loves us to do, know, question God's ability to bring victory. And as you said, God said, could be, you never been more wrong in all your life, my friend.

Dave: And and then he begins to question the sovereignty of God, God's power. And that's exactly what St. Lovest is to do, you know, question God's ability to bring victory. And as you said, God said, you could be n you you you never been more wrong in all your life, my friend.

James Book: There are thousands, 7,000 exactly, that are still out there fighting, not hiding like you, fighting for me.

Dave: There are a thousand, seven thousand exactly that are still out there fighting, not hiding like you, fighting for me. Jim, I have a friend and every once in a while he'll remind a group of us. It's Monday. Don't quit. And

James Book: Hahaha!

Dave: and what a great lesson we need. For years, Monday was my day off. And what I found is that most Mondays I ended up with a near migraine headache. Yeah.

James Book: Yeah.

Dave: And I was talking to a a buddy of mine about it and he says, Well, start working on Mondays. Take Fridays off. Why would you give your your worst day physically to the to your family when you should be giving it back to the church who gave you the headache to begin with, right? Exactly. Exactly. I I've strongly discouraged taking Mondays off. I I needed to get back in the office and first of all I wanted to celebrate with our staff stuff that went really well on the weekend or the past week. And if they're, you know, if I had to make some calls or fix some things, I didn't want to wait till Tuesday. You know, I wanted to strike now.

James Book: Exactly. Exactly. I've strongly discouraged taking Mondays off. I needed to get back in the office. And first of all, I wanted to celebrate with our staff stuff that went really well on the weekend or the past week. And if I had to make some calls or fix some things, I didn't want to wait till Tuesday. I wanted to strike now. I want to get on the phone and clarify something or fix something that happened during the week or that weekend or the Sunday generally.

Dave: I want to get on the phone and clarify something or fix something that happened during the week or that weekend or the Sunday generally.

James Book: I just didn't want to drag it into the week. didn't want it to set a negative tone in our staff for the whole week. So yeah, I'm like, get in there and let's fix it and let's move on. And Mondays were a day to do that. So my opinion, don't take Monday off.

Dave: I just didn't want to drag it into the week. I didn't want to I didn't want it to set a negative tone in our staff for the whole week. So yeah, I I'm like, get in there and let's fix it. and let's move on. And Mondays were were a day to do that. So my opinion, don't take Monday off. Jim and your personal experience and your experience with so many ministers. in their brotherhood, what are some of these things that lead to these cave moments or these Monday wanting to quit moments in in in the ministry? Well I one thing I've encouraged preachers to do is check the currency of your critics, not the criticism. i if it's a lady in your church or a guy in your church, you know, they're on their fifth job within the last week, they've been evicted from their fourth rental home. He's on his seventeenth marriage.

James Book: Well, one thing I've encouraged preachers to do is check the currency of your critics, not the criticism. If it's a lady in your church or a guy in your church, you know, and they're on their fifth job within the last week, they've been evicted from their fourth rental home, he's on his 17th marriage, you better check the currency of the criticism, okay, versus the critic. I'm not sure he needs a lot of credibility. So check the currency, by the way,

Dave: You better check the currency of the criticism, okay, versus the critic. I'm not sure he needs a lot of cr credibility. So check the currency. By the way,

James Book: Who is the one castigating Elisha, the wicked king and his wife? They had no currency. And he allowed those two clowns to dictate his emotion and his view to God. And I blame him. Shame on you, Elijah. You know where the criticism's coming from.

Dave: who is the one castigating Elisha? The wicked king and his wife. Yeah. They had no currency. And he allowed those two clowns to dictate his emotion and his view to God. And I I blame him. Shame on you, Elijah. You know who's you where the criticism's coming from. it i you shouldn't allow them to take one minute of your happiness but he did and joy so check the currency of the criticism preacher okay

James Book: You shouldn't allow them to take one minute of your happiness, but he did enjoy. So check the currency of the criticism, preacher. I always did this, Dave, this was a tool that I did all the always tried to do something that was positive on the back end. Like for instance,

Dave: I always did this day this was a tool that I did all the time. I always tried to do something that was positive on the f on the back end. Like for instance

James Book: I did chapel on Monday mornings at KCA, not every Monday. And I told the principal, I like doing it because I never have a bad experience on Monday mornings.

Dave: I did chapel on Monday mornings at KCA, not every Monday. And I s I told the principal, I like doing it because I never have a bad experience on Monday morning in chapel. Now, Sunday, not so much. There was always something that happened in the foyer. Somebody got the feeling, and we always had to put out a fire almost every Monday. But it's hard to come off angry on a Monday when you start off every Monday staring at 250 kids' faces.

James Book: chapel. Now Sunday, not so much. There was always something that happened in the foyer. Somebody got the feeling. And we always had to put out a fire almost every Monday. But it's hard to come off angry on a Monday when you start off every Monday staring at 250 kids' faces that are singing to the top of their lungs songs about praise. And you get to teach them and they're just laughing it all up. So I would leave chapel

Dave: that are singing to the top of their lungs songs about praise and you get to teach them and they're just laughing all up. So I would leave chapel

James Book: on a high. And then I went in my office and said to the secretary, okay, let's have it. What kind of, what do we have to plow through? You know, what kind of fires do we have to put out? But man, I was coming off a high every Monday. And I consciously liked to do that because it was, you know, I

Dave: on a on a high. And then I went in my office and said to the secretaries, Okay, let's have it. What what what kind of what do we have to plow through? You know, what kind of fires do we have to put out? But man, I was coming off a high every Monday. And I I I s I consciously like to do that because it was, you know, I

James Book: was like, how bad can life be when I just got a chance to challenge the next generation of Royal View missionaries. So maybe that crank in the pew

Dave: I was like, how bad can life be when I just got a chance to challenge the next generation of Worldview missionaries? So maybe that crank in the pew,

James Book: You know, I may never have any inroads with them, but I just taught 260 kids that God loves them, that they can make a difference in the world, and that this school is going to be the catapult, it's going to catapult them into the future. Yeah, so that was something I did. I kind of safeguarded myself. Not everybody has a school and you don't have to have a school to do that,

Dave: you know, I may never have any inroads with them, but I just taught two hundred and sixty kids that God loves them, that they can make a difference in the world, and that this school is gonna be the catap it's gonna catapult them into the future. Yeah, yeah. So that was something I did. I kind of safeguarded myself. Not everybody has a school and you don't have to have a school to do that.

James Book: but always find a way to do something that counters the negativity that you're experiencing.

Dave: But always find a way to do something that counters the negativity you're experiencing. Yeah, we have I think anchor points throughout our our lives and our ministries, places

James Book: Yes.

Dave: we know we can find encouragement. for me it's often somebody in the nursing home, to be honest with you. I I've found it's the hardest thing to schedule time to go into

James Book: Yes.

Dave: town, visit the different older people in the nursing home. But when I'm done with that process, I found my I find myself so encouraged. But but I've got people that I go and see and they're just they're happy to be alive. And

James Book: Yeah.

Dave: and they're just so grateful for the visit and we just talk about life and the same stories we share every time we're together, but it's uplifting in those moments. And I know I've made a difference in their lives too 'cause they're very lonely.

James Book: And that's

Dave: Shortly Yeah. That's a great way to evaluate life and ministry when you go through how many Dave walking out of a hospital visiting someone. I mean, there were times where I had to make a hospital visit and I was just like, I don't have time for this. As soon as I walked out of the room, I just like, God, thank you that it's not me in that bed. I get to walk out of here. My friend's still stuck in the bed waiting for surgery. And it was hard to feel negative and discouraged when you leave a nursing home or a hospital,

James Book: a great way to evaluate life and ministry when you go through. How many days walking out of a hospital visiting someone, I mean, there were times where I had to make a hospital visit and I was just like, I don't have time for this. As soon as I walked out of the room, I just like, God, thank you that it's not me in that bed. I get to walk out of here. My friend's still stuck in the bed waiting for surgery. And it was hard to feel negative and discouraged when you leave a nursing home or a hospital. When you get to walk out on your own,

Dave: when you get to walk out on your own. Yeah. It life all a sudden gets a lot better.

James Book: life all of a gets a lot better.

Dave: That's good. You talk about those critics in the pew. when I started preaching there was an older gentleman in the church who every Sunday I would preach would come up and and pick on something that I had typically misstated. You know, got a word out of place or misquoted the passage of scripture and you know, said Peter said something it was really Paul, called Noah, Moses, And it was really weighing on me and I remember having a meal, lunch one day with Dick Chambers, and I was sharing this with him about this fella in the church. He said, Here's what I want you to do next time he does this to you. Thank him. And I said, What are you talking about? He said, You say this to him. I want to thank you for helping me understand the things that I'm doing wrong in my preaching, because it's making me a better preacher. And I thought, okay, I'll try it. The next time he came up, he said something to me and I said, Hey, I really appreciate that and it really took him aback. I said, I think every time that you find something in a sermon I did wrong, it's helping me to become a better preacher because I'm not gonna make those same mistakes again. He never critiqued a sermon again. It was wild.

James Book: wow. Isn't that crazy?

Dave: I think it's reverse psychology. It is reverse

James Book: I think it's reverse psychology is what that is.

Dave: psychology. There's other times, Jim, maybe we'll preach the sermon of a lifetime. We'll cast a vision for the church. we'll give an impassioned plea for people to be converted, and we stand at the invitation thinking, This is it. We're gonna have streaming people down the aisles here and I'm gonna be pruned with baptistry water by the end of the day and crickets. Nobody comes forward, right?

James Book: Wrong.

Dave: So how how do we handle those moments where we're we're sure we've done great.

James Book: So we have a mutual friend, Dave, great preacher, just a great guy altogether. Even if you weren't a preacher, we'd want to be around this guy, such an encourager. such a, we've got such a wonderful family.

Dave: So we we have a mutual friend, Dave, great preacher, just a great guy altogether. Even if you weren't a preacher, we'd want to be around this guy such an encourager, he's such a we've got such a wonderful family.

James Book: And he had told me a couple of weeks ago, goes, Jim, I'm doing a three week series preparing our church for Mission 120. And again, if you don't know what Mission 120 is, it's a goal to help all of our churches in our movement over the next four years. They can jump in whenever they want to average over 120, or if they're

Dave: And he had told me a couple weeks ago, he goes, Jim, I'm doing a three-week series preparing our church for mission one twenty. And again, if you don't know what mission one twenty is, it's a goal to help all of our churches and our movement over the next four years. They can jump in whenever they want to average over 120, or if they're

James Book: well past 120, shoot for 120 baptisms over the next four years. Again, and it's based on Acts 1 where the 120 join the apostles to help launch the church.

Dave: well past 120, shoot for 120 baptisms over the next four years. Again, and it's based on Acts 1, where the 120 join the apostles to help launch the church.

James Book: There's no magic bullets, but it's just kind of a biblical approach to church growth. So he had ramped it all up and Sunday was the Sunday he's rolling it out. And he called me Sunday afternoon and he was very discouraged. He what's going on, man? He goes, first of all, the people, it just looked like they just...

Dave: There's no magic bullets, but it's just kind of a biblical approach to church growth. So he had, you know, ramped it all up, and Sunday was the Sunday. He's rolling it out. And he called me Sunday afternoon and was very discouraged. What's going on, man? He goes, first of all, the people, it just looked like they just

James Book: no emotions on their face. And he's preaching his heart out and he's, you know, stone cold, you know, Steve Austin's all through the audience. Okay. And, and then one of his elders walked up and kind of like,

Dave: no emotions on their face. And he's preaching his heart out. And he's, you know, stone cold, you know, Steve Austin's all through the audience. Okay. And and then one of his elders walked up and kind of like

James Book: we don't want to just baptize people for the sake of baptizing, which he never insinuated. So he said, I got no positive feedback from the audience. The one elder that does speak after the sermon is, you know, negative. And he's just like,

Dave: We don't want to just baptize people for the sake of baptizing, which he never insinuated. So he said, I I got no positive feedback from the audience. The one elder that does speak after the sermon is, you know, negative. And he's just like,

James Book: I feel terrible. So, you know, I said, hey, wait a minute, man. It's one sermon, right? You got next week and the week after that. So, but

Dave: I feel terrible. So, you know, I said, Hey, wait a minute, man. It's one sermon, right? You got next week and the week after that. And you you know. So

James Book: I felt for him, Dave, because your point was well taken. The expectations are high. The results come in way less than the expectations. And so what does a preacher do? begins to second guess himself. Should I said it differently? Should I've said it at all? Is this church worthy of my attention? Am I wasting my time?

Dave: But I felt for him, Dave, because he he he your point was well taken. The expectations are high. the results come in way less than the expectations. And so what does a preacher do? He begins to second guess himself. Should I set it differently? Should I set it at all? is this church worthy of my attention? Should I pr am I wasting my time and and and planting seeds in an unfertile soil? And and that's Satan, by the way. So I encouraged him. I said, Hey, you'll live to see another day. And by the way, I said

James Book: and planting seeds in an unfertilized soil. And that's Satan, by the way. So I encouraged him. I said, hey, you'll live to see another day. And by the way, I said, you may have accomplished way more than you think. They're hearing it for the first time. You've been massaging this sermon for over three weeks, OK? And maybe your expectations were too high for these people. And I kept telling my dad, he's like, D's and C's and D's are unacceptable. I said, then you need to lower your expectations of me, dad.

Dave: You may have accomplished way more than you think. They're hearing it for the first time. You've been massaging this sermon for the over three weeks, okay? And maybe your expectations were too high for these people. You know? And I kept telling my dad, he's like, Jim, D's and C C's and D's are unacceptable. I said, Then you need to lower your expectations of me, Dad. So, you know, I I would say to preachers, you know, guys, y lower your expectations just a little bit when it comes to your church because maybe just maybe they haven't they're not where you are, and that's okay.

James Book: I would say to preachers, know, guys, lower your expectations just a little bit when it comes to your church, because maybe just maybe they haven't, they're not where you are. And that's okay. That's okay. They're sheep. Okay. You're the shepherd, they're the sheep, and maybe you're dragging them. know, Jesus is the good shepherd, not the good cowboy. Okay. Your job isn't to drive them. It's to lead them. And so, but it is tough, Dave. Man, it's painful when you expect it to be the Pentecost Sunday. And,

Dave: It's okay. They're sheep. Okay. You're the shepherd, they're the sheep, and maybe you're dragging them. You know, Jesus is the good shepherd, not the good cowboy. Okay. Your job isn't to drive them, it's to lead them. And so but it is tough, Dave. Man, it's painful when you expect it to be the Pentecost Sunday, and

James Book: Nobody comes forward, the offering stinks. Instead of having a record crowd, it's high, it's a record low.

Dave: nobody comes forward, the offering stinks. Instead of having a record crowd, it's you know, high, it's a record low.

James Book: And you got an elder and a deacon fighting in the parking lot. You're like, this Sunday didn't go off like I thought it was.

Dave: And you know, you got an elder and a deacon fighting in the parking lot, and you're like, this Sunday didn't go off like I thought it was. You had mentioned that maybe the expectations are set a little too high. you're well known of being a visionary and you know, hitting for the fences every time you're up to bat. so how do you regulate that? How do you make that that determination, Jim, on how to establish A vision that's realistic for the audience you're working with, question, because a lot of times preachers have gone in and they've cast a personal vision without really taking inventory of their audience.

James Book: Good question, because a lot of times preachers have gone in and they've cast a personal vision without really taking inventory of their audience, their audience capability and the talent level. And you and I had raised Martin on who heads up the Cuyovo and I always like to tell people that Kentucky, Virginia, West Virginia, Ohio church planners. Okay. And he did that DNA study. So if you know the DNA of your town, the DNA of your people,

Dave: their audience capability and the talent level. And and you and I had race Martin on who heads up Kyovo and I always like to tell people what that Kentucky, Virginia, West Virginia, Ohio church planners. Yeah. And he did that DNA study. So if you know the DNA of your town, the DNA of your people,

James Book: then you can kind of navigate through growth knowing what's the socioeconomic status, what's the talent, what's the educational base of your church. right,

Dave: then you can kind of s you know navigate through growth knowing what's the socioeconomic status, what's the talent, what's the educational base of your church. All right.

James Book: so preachers, sometimes their vision gets in the way of reality. It's not really God's vision or the church, it's their personal agenda. And if that's the case, you need to find another vocation. You're not gonna serve God or the church well. something I had to constantly remind myself,

Dave: So preachers, sometimes their vision gets in the way of reality. You know, it's not really God's vision or the church, it's their personal agenda. And if that's the case, you need to find another vocation. You're not gonna do the serv you're not gonna serve God or the church well. But it I do I something I had to constantly remind myself, you know, because we we did a lot in a short period of time, and I would say, Okay, Jim, is this what you want for the church? Or have you really gone to God with this and make sure it's best

James Book: because we did a lot in a short period of time and I would say, okay, Jim, is this what you want for the church? Or have you really gone to God with this and make sure it's best for the church in relationship to what God wants? I he sent his son to die for it, you didn't. So make sure you put the processes in place and make sure that it's not your personal goal, that it's really a God thing. And if it is, it can't fail.

Dave: For the church in relationship to what God wants. I mean, he sent his son to die for it, you didn't. So make sure you put the processes in place and and and and make sure that it's not your personal goal, that it's really a a God thing. And if it is, it can't fail. Okay. I think Bob Russell used to say, Your goals need to be so big that that it it i you have to have God in it or it's gonna fail. But when God's in it, it's he gets the credit.

James Book: I think Bob Russell used to say, your goals need to be so big that you have to have God in it or it's going to fail. But when God's in it, he gets the credit. If God's in it, he's going to get the credit. If it's your goal, then it sounds self-serving and that's not healthy.

Dave: If God's in it, he's gonna get the credit. If it's your goal, then it sounds self sa serving and that's not healthy. Jim, you're always reminding us about going to the elders and talking to them about your dreams when you were, you know, in the located ministry. And I've discovered time and time again the times that I've launched a vision without eldership involvement, those generally don't succeed very well. if if I'm taking time to go and talk to them and say, Hey guys, this is what I'm thinking, this is where we're headed, generally I can't accomplish that in one meeting. Give

James Book: No.

Dave: two or three meetings And I had I had an elder and I've heard this a number of times over the years and from different different individuals. Another one of the elders one time said, Hey Dave, 'cause I was discouraged. I'd come with this vision. I wanted to accomplish something great, and they basically shot me down the first meeting. And one of the elders made a comment, he says, Don't forget, Dave, you've been working on this for two or three months. Right. You gave

James Book: Right. Right.

Dave: us twenty minutes to make a decision How about you just give us another month to process it? And and we

James Book: Yeah.

Dave: did and were able to massage things. And and they've got a realistic view of the church, sometimes more so than the preacher does. I remember sitting with the elders and saying, Fellas, we need small groups. we'd come from a church in Indianapolis, small groups were a very vital part of our Christian experience and our growth in the faith. And so I sat with the elders, said, Fellas, I want to move in this direction. And one of the elders said, We will never do small groups here.

James Book: Hmm.

Dave: And I said, Why? And he said, Well, we tried it once. And there was some divisiveness that had sprung up in in one of the groups and so they wrote it off for years. And periodically I would mention it and we made some changes along the way 'cause I know there's an old saying, in order to grow big you have to be small.

James Book: Mm-hmm.

Dave: And have these small group connections were so vital, it's very vital to where we're at as a church now. What happened in the middle? Let me tell you a quick story. That elder who said we will never do small groups here had a daughter who went to a large church and the only way that their connection and growth started to happen is when they got involved in a small group. His granddaughter moved away to college and got involved in a small group. And both of them would say, Our small group is

James Book: I

Dave: amazing. Well,

James Book: Hmm

Dave: wouldn't you know, he shows up in an elders' meeting one day and says, Fellas, what would you think if we did small groups? The very guy who said we'd never do it did it

James Book: Right.

Dave: became the proponent that propelled it in its start and and and so that kind of time was necessary to overcome

James Book: Yeah.

Dave: the history.

James Book: Yeah. So, know, Jonah, there's four chapters in Jonah. First chapter is dedicated to a guy who ran away from God. Chapter two is dedicated to the Jonah who ran to God. Chapter three is dedicated to the Jonah who ran with God. And then unfortunately, chapter four, he's running ahead of God. The only chapter in that entire book where he's getting it right is when he's running with God. And it's important that preachers, and Dave, I think I compliment you. I you could have dug your heels in and argued with that elder, but what he really needed was time.

Dave: Yeah. So you know Jonah, there's four chapters in Jonah. First chapter is dedicated to a guy who ran away from God. Chapter two is dedicated to the Jonah who ran to God. Chapter three is dedicated to the Jonah who ran with God. And then unfortunately in chapter four, he's running ahead of God. The only chapter in that entire book where he's getting it right is when he's running with God. And it's important that preachers, and Dave, I think I compliment you. I mean, you could have dug your f heels in and argued with that elder, but what he really needed was time.

James Book: And now he's probably the biggest advocate for small groups. And I just think preachers, you don't have to conquer every enemy today. You don't have to put the forces of evil to sleep in an hour. Okay, it takes time. And sometimes we gotta catch up with God, because we're either ahead of him or behind him. But Jonah was only successful when he was running with God. And to me,

Dave: And now he's probably the biggest advocate for small groups. And I just think preachers, you you don't have to conquer every enemy today. You don't have to put the forces of evil to sleep in an hour. Okay. It takes time. And sometimes we gotta catch the we gotta catch up with God or and we'cause we're either ahead of him or behind him. But Jonah was only successful when he was running with God. And I to me

James Book: To me, that's the only way to be successful is to run with it. So Dave, I want to just share one passage in Nehemiah. And I think every preacher can zone in on this because it'll help alleviate the struggles that we have every week with what could have gone better. What did I do wrong? Because we are the world's worst critics. We criticize ourselves more than everyone else. In Nehemiah 4, they're building the wall. Everything's cooking with gas. Nehemiah 4.6.

Dave: I to me that's the only way to be successful is is to run with it. So Dave, I want to just share one passage in Nehemiah. And I think every preacher can zone in on this because it'll help alleviate the the struggles that we have every week with what could have gone better. What did I do wrong? Because we we are the we are we are the world's worst critics. We criticize ourselves more than everyone else. In Nehemiah 4, they're building the wall. Everything's cooking with gas. Nehemiah 4, 6.

James Book: So we built the wall and the entire wall was joined together up to half of its height for the people had a mind to work. The people had a mind. So Nehemiah is like, our success is not based on me. It's getting the people to come together to have a mind to work. The successful preacher is not a guy who's up there leading a hundred miles ahead of his people, a hundred miles ahead of his elders. He is getting his entire congregation unified around his vision.

Dave: So we built the wall, and the entire wall was joined together up to half of its height, for the people had a mind to work. The people had a mind. So Nehemiah's like, our success is not based on me. It's getting the people to come together to have a mind to work. The successful preacher is not a guy who's up there leading a hundred miles ahead of his people, a hundred miles ahead of his elders. He is getting his entire congregation unified around his vision.

James Book: but they're all working to build the wall. But look what happens in three verses later. Judas said, the strength of the labors is failing. There's so much rubbish that we're not going to be able to finish the wall. And I think when they took their eyes off the wall and the success they were having and started looking at all the rubbish around them, they lost sight of their vision. Preachers, don't look at the rubbish. Stop looking at the pews that aren't full and celebrate the pews that are.

Dave: But they're all working to build the wall. But look what happens in three verses later. Judah said the strength of the labors is failing. There's so much rubbish that we're not going to be able to finish the wall. And I think when they took their eyes off the wall and the success they were having and started looking at all the rubbish around them, they lost sight of their vision. Preachers, don't look at the rubbish. Stop looking at the pews that aren't full and celebrate the pews that aren't.

James Book: Stop looking at the money you didn't take in Sunday and celebrate the money you did. Stop counting the fact that, a person didn't come forward last Sunday. Celebrate the family that came forward two weeks ago. We look at the rubbish, and when we do that, we take our eyes off the wall. They had already finished. It was halfway done. They should have been celebrating that. But they couldn't take their eyes off the rubbish. And know, preachers, I was with a preacher a while back.

Dave: Stop looking at the money you didn't take in Sunday and celebrate the money you did. Stop counting the fact that, hey, a person didn't come forward last Sunday. Celebrate the family that came forward two weeks ago. We look at the rubbish and when we do that, we take our eyes off the wall. They had already finished, it was halfway done. They should have been celebrating that. But they couldn't take their eyes off the rubbish. And you know, preachers, I was with a preacher is a while back. I I was speaking in his church. I thought it was a great Sunday. I thought, man, this is a good turnout. The second we got in the car, we were going to lunch, and he looked at his wife and goes, Did you notice who wasn't here? And he started listening to people that weren't. And did you notice what the Sunday school teacher showed up late again? And all I could think about is this guy is gonna have a short ministry if all he does is look at the rubbish, things that need to be improved. I was looking at the wall. Man, you guys are building a great ministry

James Book: I was speaking in his church. I thought it was a great Sunday. I thought, man, this is a good turnout. The second we got in the car, we were going to lunch, and he looked at his wife and goes, did you notice who wasn't here? And he started listening to people that weren't. And did you notice what the Sunday school teacher showed up late? Again. And all I could think about is this guy is going to have a short ministry if all he does is look at the rubbish, things that need to be improved. I was looking at the wall. Man, you guys are building a great ministry here.

Dave: here. This guy was super negative.

James Book: This guy was super negative. By the way, he's no longer in ministry. And I thought, how many preachers, know, they, self-inflicted wounds are killing us, man. Relax, celebrate your victories. I used to our church all the time, celebrate the small things. Because if you celebrate out of small things, they become monumentally large over time. But just, the rubbish is going to be there. And if that's all we focus on, I think our ministry is going be very myopic.

Dave: By the way, he's no longer in ministry. And I thought, how many preachers you know, they self-inflicted wounds are killing us, man. Relax. Celebrate your victories. I used to tell our our church all the time, celebrate the small things. Because if you celebrate on the small things, they become monumentally large over time. But just the rubbish is gonna be there. And if that's all we focus on, I think our ministry is gonna be very myopic

James Book: and limited

Dave: and limited.

James Book: and we're gonna self-destruct as preachers. Don't do that.

Dave: And we're gonna self destruct as preachers. Don't do that. Jim, maybe you've been at points in your ministry where there weren't many successes to look at and and many things you could look at that would help encourage you. How how would you communicate to guys, maybe they're on a Monday morning listening to this podcast, dealing with the consequences of the weekend and criticisms and challenges. Maybe they're at a point where they're considering whether they even stay in that ministry or not. How do you help How do you help ministers focus on the greater good even if they don't see the practical aspect of what's happening day to day and victories day to day? Okay, first of all, I don't believe I don't use the term valleys and mountains. I've heard preachers say that. I'm on a v I'm in a mountaintop experience now, but last week I was in the valley. I disagree with that. I don't ever think we're in valleys and and and mountains. I don't. I think life is in a moving in a parallel way.

James Book: Okay, first of all, I don't believe, I don't use the term valleys and mountains. I've heard preachers say that, I'm on a mountain top experience now, but last week I was in the valley. I disagree with that. I don't ever think we're in valleys and mountains. I don't. I think life is moving in a parallel way. So for instance, on any given day, on any given Sunday, I don't care what Sunday it is, on any given Sunday,

Dave: So for instance, on any given day, on any given Sunday, I don't care what Sunday it is, on any given Sunday,

James Book: there are things that are going extremely well, things that you should be celebrating. But at the same time, there are things that aren't so well that need to be fixed or removed. But on any given day, there's something to celebrate. There's something that needs to be fixed. And so realize that no matter how long you're in ministry,

Dave: there are things that are going extremely well, things that you should be celebrating. But at the same time, there are things that are going that aren't so well that need to be fixed or removed. But on any given day, there's something to celebrate. There's something that needs to be fixed. And so realize that no matter how long you're in ministry,

James Book: there is something that's pulling at you either positively or negatively. I used to think Bob Russell had not a bad day in his life. He has 22,000 people in his church.

Dave: There is something that's pulling at you either positively or negatively. I used to think Bob Russell had not a bad day in his life. He has 22,000 people in his church.

James Book: and his building looks like a shopping mall. How could this guy ever have a problem? Look at all these people and look at the influence. And then when I started building our little church up to 400, I was overwhelmed and I thought, good grief, how in the world do you possibly manage that? That man had a lot of sleepless nights and we all look at him and think he doesn't have a care in the world. He's Bob Russell.

Dave: His building looks like a shopping mall. How could this guy ever have a problem? Look at all these people and look at the influence. And then when I started building our little church up to 400, I was overwhelmed and I thought, good grief, how the world do you possibly manage that? That man had a lot of sleepless nights. And we all look at him and think he doesn't have a care in the world. He's Bob Russell.

James Book: I'm gonna tell you something. That man was in a parallel world every single day. A lot of good things happening.

Dave: I'm gonna tell you something. That man was in a parallel world every single day. A lot of good things happening,

James Book: but there are lot of things that were pulling at his heart at the same time. You gotta make your story. And I think it was the coach of the men's basketball team, Coach Wooden, and he would say to his players, every day that you have a canvas in front of you, you get to paint that picture. That picture is gonna look like whatever you paint it. Preacher, your church, your

Dave: but there are a lot of things that were pulling at his heart at the same time. You gotta make your story. And it I think it was the the coach of the UCLA men's basketball team, Coach Wooden, and he would say to his players, every day there you have a canvas in front of you. You get to paint that picture. That picture is gonna look like whatever you paint it. Preacher, your church. Your elders, your people, your flock, your future largely depends on how you paint it. If you're a negativist

James Book: elders, your people, your flock, your future, largely depends on how you paint it. Now, if you're a negativist, and you're ultra critical, you're never ever joyful about anything, that canvas is going to be extremely, extremely painful to look at. But you get to decide how it looks. You get to paint it. You and God together get to paint that picture. So you paint it how you want it to look. You tell me what your church looks like. You tell me your challenges.

Dave: and you have you're ultra critical, you're never ever joyful about anything, that canvas is going to be extremely, extremely painful to look at. But you get to decide how it looks. You get to paint it. You and God together get to paint that picture. So you paint it how you want it to look. You tell me what your church looks like. You tell me your challenges.

James Book: You celebrate your victories. And I'm going to tell you that canvas is going to look a lot different if you look at it through the eyes of Jesus and not Elijah.

Dave: You celebrate your victories and I'm gonna tell you that canvas is gonna look a lot different if you look at it through the eyes of Jesus and not Elijah.

James Book: So one of the things I do all the time is when I ask God for stuff, and I do ask God for a lot, I also balance it out with, man, I got to spend some time thanking you. I force myself to thank. Number two, I celebrate everything. I celebrate everything in my life. In ministry, I used to tell our staff all the time, we'd go around the table at staff meetings, and I'd say, before we get started, let's celebrate what happened this weekend. Because if we didn't,

Dave: So one one of the things I do all the time is when I ask God for stuff, and I do ask God for a lot, I also balance it out with, man, I gotta spend some time thanking you. I force myself to thank. Number two, I celebrate everything. I celebrate everything in my life. in ministry, I used to tell our staff all the time, we'd go around the table at staff meetings, and I'd say, before we get started, let's celebrate what happened this weekend. Because if we didn't

James Book: No one mentioned that baptism without me. Why didn't we mention it before I said, let's celebrate? You know why? Because we're so busy thinking of next week. I said, no. Number two, preacher, blow your Facebook up with things that are going well. Every time, and Dave, I love what you guys do. I was scrolling today, Millwood, two baptisms. Why are we hiding this information from our church? If we had something happen at the church, an event, I mean, I was, had...

Dave: No one mentioned that baptism without me. Why didn't we mention it before I said let's celebrate? You know why? Because we're so busy thinking of next week. I said no. Number two, preacher, blow your Facebook up with things that are going well. Every time and Dave, I love what you guys do. I was scrolling today, Millwood, two baptisms. Why why are we hiding this information from our church? If we had something happen at the church, an event, man, I was I had

James Book: Like if we had a person come forward during Celebrate Recovery on Monday, I was letting the elders and the whole church know that night, hey, guys, just so you know, I drove by the church building. It was 10 o'clock Monday night. You guys are getting ready for bed. That's fine, but you need to know this. There are 25 warriors celebrating the baptism of a lost soul. I just celebrated everything. And the more I celebrated, the more I realized I have a lot to celebrate. And it's funny how the things that used to bring me down paled in comparison to the victories.

Dave: Like if we had a person come forward during celebrate recovery on Monday, I would I was letting the elders and the whole church know that night, hey guys, just so you know, I drove by the church building, it was ten o'clock Monday night, you guys are getting ready for bed, that's fine, but you need to know this. There are twenty-five warriors celebrating the baptism of a lost soul. I I just celebrated everything. And the more I celebrated, the more I realized I have a lot to celebrate. And it's funny how the things that used to bring me down paled in comparison to the victories.

James Book: I just didn't notice him for so long because I failed to recognize him. When I started recognizing him, was like, man, God, you are good. You're better than I thought you were. But he was always good. I just didn't take time to recognize it. Now I do. Now I do. You got time for a funny joke before you leave? All right. So this parent, they had two kids. One kid, super negative, super negative. One kid was always on cloud nine. Everything was coming up roses in this kid's life. The other kid, they could never make happy.

Dave: I just didn't notice him for so long because I failed to recognize but when I started recognizing, I was like, man God, you are good. You're better than I thought you were. But he was always good. I just didn't take time to recognize it. Now I do. Now I do. You got time for a funny joke before you leave? Let's hear it. All right. So this parent, they had two kids. One kid super negative, super negative. One kid was always on cloud nine. Everything was coming up roses in this kid's life. The other kid, they could never make happy.

James Book: So they tried to put their kids to the test. On Christmas, they said, look, let's see if the kid who's always happy is happy even when he gets the worst news in the world, but let's overcompensate for the negative kid. Let's give him everything and see if maybe he can eke out a thank you. It's Christmas morning, the negative kid, he's got all kinds of new games. He's got every toy imaginable. Every time he opens it, throws it off the side, I could have done better. I hate this toy.

Dave: So they tried to put the they took put their kids to the test. On Christmas, they said, look, let's see if the kid who's always happy is happy even when he gets the worst news of the world. But let's overcompensate for the negative kid. Let's give him everything and see if maybe he can eke out a thank you. It's Christmas morning. The negative kid, he's got all kinds of new games. He's got every toy imaginable. Every time he opens it, throws it off the side, I could have done better. I hate this toy.

James Book: They're like, okay, we can't please this kid, but let's see if we can get the kid that's on a high. Let's see if we can get him to be ugly and nasty. So they wrap up a box of manure. Give it to the kid. Kid opens it up. and it's just a pile of manure. And he looks at his parents. He looks down at the box of manure and he has this giant smile on his face. It's his mom and dad. With a box full of manure,

Dave: They're like, okay, we can't please this kid, but let's see if we can get the kid that's on a high. Let's see if we can get him to be ugly and nasty. So they wrap up a box of manure, give it to the kid. Kid opens it up. it's just a pile of manure. And he looks at his parents, he looks down at the box of manure, and he has this giant smile on his face. It's his mom and dad with a box full of manure.

James Book: there must be a pony outside for me.

Dave: There must be a pony outside for me. It's all how you look at life, baby. It's how you look at ministry.

James Book: It's all how you look at life, baby. It's how you look at ministry.