Dave: Welcome to Church on Mission, the podcast of the Christian Restoration Association. I'm Dave Jones. I minister at the Millwood Church of Christ in Central Ohio. And as always, I'm here with Jim Book, Associate Director of the CRA. Jim, great to see you

jim: good to be back with you guys and Dave, excited about this podcast and what what God's doing through it and speaking through us to other preachers as they forge ahead and advance the kingdom.

Dave: Jim, let's talk about throwing our nets to the other side of the boat. A great sermon from Hillsboro that that we are able to dig a little bit deeper into and and really frame what that means to have the trust in the Lord to do what we ought to do as churches and trust in God for the future. And and I want to spend a little bit of time today just talking about practically what that looks like. I mean it's great to read the scripture, great to see the stories from the Bible Of course, and great to hear good preaching on that, but putting those things into practice, that's where the challenge lies for a lot of us in in everyday life, but especially in the church, where maybe one of the leaders in the church is like, yeah, let's throw those nets, and other guys are like, No, we're never moving these nets. How do we how do we navigate that? And so I think today would be a great day for you to really just open the door and help us better understand that.

jim: this is not an endorsement of Rick Warren at all. But I will tell you when the book The Purpose Driven Church came out, I gr I got a copy, you know. I just saw the name of it and in in my mind I'm thinking, Okay, I'm serving in a church and I really want it to have purpose. I don't want it to be a purposeless church. I don't want I don't want it to be have no definition, no no goals, no aspirations. So I I got it, I read it. And personally, personally, I would never endorse everything in that book, certainly never endorse everything Rick Warren has taught, that's for sure. I it it did help me. reprogram and kind of recalibrate the way I was leading as an evangelist at the church. And I I literally went to our leadership and said, I think there's some things that we're doing that are ineffective. we're we're tossing the nets on the same side, expecting the same results, getting nothing, but either we're too lazy or don't have enough vision to do something very uncomfortable. And that's Rethink our policies and procedures, not our doctrine, let me make that clear, but the methods that we're using. And so when we started to cognitively have a bias towards doing things different if the what we're doing isn't working, we begin to see incredible change and difference in the attitude of the church. And so I would simply say: if what you're doing doesn't have purpose and clarity. And and it's and and and and when you look at the the statistics, you see no growth or development because of these programs. Maybe it's because it has no purpose and you need to redefine yourself.

Dave: And so what we're trying to glean from that is good principles that we can apply at the local level that that work under the authority of Scripture and hand in hand with what God has established for the church to be, not overly pragmatic or programmatic. But essentially as biblical as God calls us to be in the church. And so, Jim, when we talk about this concept, then how how do you advise men that maybe have that mindset already? Hey, I'm willing to throw every net everywhere I need to throw it if God calls me to do that. how do you balance that with other leaders maybe that aren't there yet? And what are some practical steps a guy could take to bring his leadership on board to being willing to throw those nets as needed?

jim: that's a great question. And too many great preachers have lost their ministries because they didn't have a grace-paced style. A grace-paced style means you your pace needs to be running right with Jesus. Okay, so you know Jesus probably got very frustrated with his disciples because they weren't catching on, but he was patient. Okay. I my recommendation to preachers is look, you you you don't need to change faster. Than the scope of your people's trust. I have a great friend. He's not a great friend because I don't know that well. I should be careful how how I toss him around the term great friend. He's a friend. And I'd like to be a great friend. And if I spend some time with him, he's a phenomenal guy. But he he's taken a very dysfunctional church in Florida that nobody would have taken. Nobody would have taken. And he went in and I have never heard this done before, Dave. He asked the elders to sign a contract. And his salary was going to be a guaranteed salary for three years. unless he, unless he failed morally or doctrinally, could not let him go. That was a way to ensure that they wouldn't get upset at some of the changes. So with a three-year contract, no questions, they did it. And he began to make wholesale changes in this church of that a that that actually needed to have been done for years, but nobody wanted to pull the trigger, but he was brave enough to do it. But he said these words and and I thought, man, this is invaluable. He goes, I don't ask the church to catch on to my vision. I ask them to catch on to my tr to my trust. Do you trust me? Yes. Well let's go with the trust Not the vision. And I've always been a vision guy. Here's the vision. Catch on the vision. Let's do it together. His point was: do you trust me? Yes, we trust you because you're a man of God. You have vision. You walk with God. The Holy Spirit's working with you. Okay, so if you have trust in me, let's let the trust guide us, not even the vision. And I thought, okay, so churches, look, here's the deal. Do you trust your evangelist? Yes. Well then give him permission to make the kind of changes that need to make in your church to make it more functioning, highly functional. And and Dave, again, we're not talking about get rid of the the sacraments that are essential, the governance policies that are essential in the scriptures, like elders, the role I I even hate when I get churches get rid of the office of deacons because well, we have ministry team leaders. I believe the office of deacons is in the scriptures for a reason. And I think those offices are still very prevalent. Now, maybe the way we choose deacons needs to be rethought. Maybe the way we choose elders needs to be rethought. But the fact is those offices are essential. Qualified males leading them that's that's in the scriptures. That's not up for debate. But the how we do things, the how we do things, I think can be rethought.

Dave: excellent. I love the the concept there. grace paste. Love that term. I don't know if I've ever heard that before. so good. But also the idea of trust and just as a thought for People that are like, man, how do I get up to speed on some of the things Jim is talking about? Last season we spent all kinds of time talking about vision, building trust among leaders in the church, and how to work effectively together. So I would definitely point people back to some of the things we talked about last time. Jim, one of the areas that we're gonna talk about here in a little bit is building some programs that that really are risky in one sense, but so valuable in reaching out to the community. what are some non- non-programmatic things that maybe we could be doing in the local church in the way we the way we operate, the way we think, the way we function in the course of a weekly or daily basis as a church that that are indicators that we're growing in that area of trust of God and we're ready to take some bigger steps. What are some small steps before some big steps?

jim: Okay, that that's a great question. I I I know that a lot of churches are are really focusing on how do how do we gain trust in our community with our families? and you know fam people are are are when they look for a church, man, they're wanting to make sure, okay, is the children's program effective and so are the classrooms clean. I mean, are are the teachers, I mean, are they not a qualified? Can I trust my child with this teacher? So, you know, a lot of churches are are upgrading in in the the way in which they choose teachers. There's background checks. And we never did that twenty five, thirty years ago, but you don't you didn't need to. We live in a different world. And when when you have a person who's outside coming into a church, these are the questions they're asking. you know, is the classroom clean? Okay. Well, it's kind of not, but my my grandkids don't care. We've been going to this church for 50 years. And that's and I've I I applaud that in a sense that you don't care. But again, how attractive are you trying to be to the person who's coming in for the first time? They're looking at the church building through a lens that you're not, but we have to be more cognizant of that. And so a lot of churches are expanding their vision to incorporate children's programming in regards to homeschool coaching. O op programs. A lot of our Dave, you know, the CRA is coaching a lot of churches right now and starting a Christian school. That seems to be a move that's that's favorable for a lot of communities. a lot of states are opening up the scholarship for families to choose the school they want. I know in Florida, our governor did a phenomenal job of creating school choice. it seems like the only people offended by that are those of the government schools because, you know, again, they operate on a very myopic principle. but the So so churches are are really expanding their vision in regard to that. Well, when you do that, you've got to be willing to to look at your building. You got to be look willing to treat your staff and your outreach differently. You've got to be willing to throw the nets on the side and go, okay, to your children's minister, okay, we're going to share this room Monday through Friday with our school or through our co-op program. Anytime you do something like this, you have to rethink policy. You have to rethink programs, procedures. And that's okay. But that means you have to be willing to rethink the way you operate. Means, man, tossing those nets on the other side. But remember, until you toss the nets on other side, you're not in a position to catch more fish. They caught nothing the way they were doing it. So yeah, you might have to rethink policy. You might have to bring your custodian people in, your staff in, and go, look, we're going to treat the facility differently. We're going to, we're going to we're going to expand our faith and our budget to go after this group that's in our community that's untouched. But when you do that, that's I think you really stretch the faith in your congregation. You really stretch your budget, but now you've put yourself in a position to catch something bigger than you've ever caught before.

Dave: that's excellent. And Jim, you're a huge proponent of church schools, having a school in the in the church. That's you're on the leading edge of that within our brotherhood. And there's a lot of churches going that that direction. I think we're primed in our country for that. some churches aren't ready for that either financially or facility wise. so there's some issues related to that. But you

jim: Sure.

Dave: and I are both good friends with Covey Wise in Monroville, Pennsylvania. And they have a homeschool program there that seems to be reaching their community and meeting a need even within the church.

jim: Well, I saw I was talking to Covey when and you know, Covey okay, first of all, Covey has a passion for homeschool because he's homeschooled his kids. So so you have a preacher who already has a propensity to do something because his heart's in it. That's a good thing. number two, he's in a conservative church in a conservative community where there seems to be a lot of homeschool parenting. I'm not suggesting that liberal parents don't have their kids in homeschools. Okay, let's clarify that. But when you have a lot in the community that that feels Like educating their children is something they they want to do, they take that personally. That's great. So he's he's got so he's already prepared to fish in a pond where there's a lot of potential fish to catch. Number two, he's a fisherman. See, the disciples were fishermen, so they already had a love for fishing. Covey and his church. love homeschooling so their their hearts in this program and so number three now they just need to do it and so I was talking to him we were at a retreat together last year a little not quite a year ago and he's like man this ministry's really taken off but it's introducing us to families that we would not have been introduced to otherwise had we not started this and if anybody knows Monroeville and I think Dave, you're going to do a revival coming up in a few weeks there. Monroville is a doctrinally very sound church. They have a very rich history. And so, so, you know, you have people say, well, if you're if you're ultra-conservative church, you're not you're not a dreamer's, you don't think big, you're very myopic. No, Monroville is a church that is doctrinally very sound. And they are very rich in tradition. Okay. Been there, done a revival. It's great. But But Covey's also one of those innovative guys who is totally good with rethinking procedures, with rethinking methods, with with with rethinking how we use our facilities. And he has really done a great job of expanding their horizons and and reshaping their vision to where it's it's it's let more broad, more open to change, positive change, healthy change, change with purpose. Change with clarity. And that's one facet where he is willing and has to encourage the church. Let's bolt from the ideas that we've had. Let's throw the nets on the side in regards to children's ministry. And it's really connected them to families they would have not had. He's in fact he's told me we've had families started to come to the church through that. I know my church at Kissimmee, My sister expanded this year a homeschool co-op. We have a great Christian school, wonderful numbers of students, but she said, I I we're missing a niche by not offering some of these el electives to homeschoolers. And so she rolled out this incredible homeschool co-op and boom, we start to have families sign up. And and these are also families that are talking about the church. You know, we're also and when they're interviewed, they're like, we're also looking for a good church. Boom. That's the door to now move them into the church. again, we you know we had a school. We don't need a co-op with a homeschool. Maybe we do. Maybe we haven't thrown the nets on the other side. Maybe we need to rethink how we reach families. So I'm just encouraging churches. You don't it has to it doesn't to be schools, co-op programs, homeschool, Christian school. Just seriously sit down with your leadership. throw and and and and toss the minutes aside from last meeting, throw the agenda to the trash for this meeting, and just simply ask the guys across the table, guys, what about what we're doing right now is so big that that it can't possibly work unless God's in it? Or is everything we're about ready to discuss so small and so insignificant that God doesn't need to weigh in because he looks at our agenda and goes, you guys can do that without me. That's the kind of thinking the restoration movement has to start having now. It's very uncomfortable because it's easy to just keep doing it the way we're doing because we don't have to change. We don't have to rethink anything. It's it's it's it's you know, rinse and recycle every meeting. But those churches are dying. And some of the guys watching right now are going, that's us, man. That's us. It doesn't have to be you anymore. But you've got, you have got. to to look at your church and your church family and your community and the DNA of your community differently, and you've gotta be willing to make some changes, significant changes.

Dave: You know, one of the things we've seen in our church and I know other churches as well is for years we very much had a leadership mindset that was if something's gonna happen, we've got to be in the middle of it. And so the preacher or an elder have got to be central to whatever program is operating. And what we've learned is if we put the right people that actually have ability in those areas and talent, and we trust them, we trust their doctrine. We know they're not going to have some faith-only guys in to participate in what they're doing and they're able to address issues that come up. Once we've sort of liberated people In the church to do ministry, and we've taken ourselves out of being the hub of every wheel that operates in the church. All of a sudden, our discussions went from how are we going to manage this to how who do we choose to set free and run this program. And that that really's opened the door for

jim: Yes. Yes.

Dave: us to do small and big things and allow people to minister and get more involved. The more people that are involved in ministry, I think the better the church is, of course. And that's what God's called us to do. The work of the elders isn't to do all the work, it's to equip the

jim: So Dave, absolutely.

Dave: saints for works of service.

jim: Exactly. So John 21, what's interesting is what didn't happen. Jesus could have yelled from the shore, hey guys, let me swim out there and show you what to do. Let me swim out there and take care of everything for you. He just said, I'm going to empower you to do it, just like you said. It's not the job of the preacher and the elders to do everything. Or my goodness, the programs only get as big as what we can handle or what we can govern or oversee, which we still need to oversee. But he said, I'm going to tell you what to do, show you what to do, encourage you what to do, but I want you to do it. And that plays right into what you just said. The job of a leader, be it evangelists, elders, is to empower the flock. as you and you quoted so beautifully, works of service. But if if if if the programs and ministries are only going to be as effective as what we do, then then we pretty much cap the growth of our church based on our own talents and abilities. And that's very unhealthy. Very unhealthy. Act six, choose a group of men who can oversee the needs of the widows. Not, hey apostles, throw one more thing on your plate. You guys choose men Of quality and character, we can throw the nets on the other side and rethink our widows ministry policy, which obviously isn't working, so we keep doing the same thing we can and run all the Greek widows off, or we can rethink how we're doing it, throwing the nets on the other side, and make both sets content, and they did.

Dave: many of us are familiar with what's going on at the Compass Christian Church where E.L. Jones ministers and and Mike was there for years, of course, and he just retired, Mike Lynn. you've got a quite a history with that church from the early days when you were a young man, child, really. And and that's a good example maybe of a church that was really two churches that reached a point of understanding, hey, our The net we have to throw over the other side is is really transformative to who we are as a congregation. And as you travel, you run into a lot of these churches that are that are small, isolated. They they feel they're limited in their capacity to do things because they don't have the resources. And if they were to merge with another church or a bigger church that maybe they could do something more.

jim: Liberty Christian

Dave: Right.

jim: Church was which is now Compass Christian. Liberty Christian Church was started by my grandfather in the 50s. and he he had this real desire to have a church and a school right there in Mechanicsville, right on the main drag. They bought this property. He designed the building. If you ever see Compass Christian, the old building, Liberty Christian Church building is still standing, but there's these two arches. My grandfather. And there's a sidewalk that walks underneath to the facility. The idea of those are the those are the arms of God. We pray. And after we get done praying, we walk through to the church because God's blessed it. I mean, it's just kind of a crazy design. It's why people look at it and go, that's an odd design. But my grandfather, he he had this, he had thought through it, man. So liberty's hopping, it's growing, things are happening. He passes away. And over the years, and they had started a Christian school, very highly functioning. Liberty Christian School built this. beautiful education wing in the back. But over time things changed. And the church began to systematically decline in attendance. And one day Mike Lynn, pre was a preacher at Liberty, reached out to Paul Green, Church of Christ, which was just down the road, not far, where E. L. Jones was preaching. And Mike just put the, you know, put the threw the net out and said, hey, this I'm gonna throw it out, see what we catch. What would happen if we came together? Well, Liberty had the facilities but was didn't have the critical mass. Paul Green had people, but they were broke and they were getting ready to take a loan out and and refurbish their building. But but EL's like, you know, do we really want to throw a lot of money here when you have the best location and a greater propensity to grow physically, and and numerically and spiritually. So they did what was what we now know as one of the greatest moves in in church history of Virginia, they came together. They merged. And they brought their assets together. They brought their people together, their talents together. Mike and E. L developed a phenomenal program of sharing the pulpit, sharing responsibilities. A lot of churches could have never pulled that off because you got an ego in the midway. No egos. Just one thing. Service the people here in this community by preaching the gospel. And and Dave, that church has boomed to what? I think they had over to 2000, over to 2,000 at Easter. I attended a worship service when I was speaking at Gethsemane Church Christ down the road for their homecoming. I went to the early service at Compass. It was packed. They have 4 a.m. services now, but they're getting ready to relaunch the Christian school this fall. And right now, actually. But it's a classic example of two guys who love the Lord first, who love the kingdom, but knew they could do more together than you could separately. And it is a story that Many of our churches could replicate. And it doesn't mean that you're going to be running 4,000 in the next four years. But what it means is you can take your assets, bring them together, bring your people together, have your people enjoy critical mass and fellowship and a highly functioning church versus two small struggling works that for all intents and purposes aren't going to go anywhere because you haven't. But what would happen if we if we reasoned together, saith the Lord, and came together? What could you do then? So that's a classic example. And I remember as a kid, Dave, I mean, I was like five years old on Sunday nights. My my my they would stand me on a chair and EL's grandfather would play sermon in shoes. And I'm saying it as a five-year-old belted out in this building. And now looking forward, fast forward to today, it's like great history, but I'm I'm now more empowered by their future, not by their history. I mean, great history, but let's talk about the future of this church. And now E.L.'s getting ready to expand into a Hispanic ministry. And he spoke at Hillsborough at the end of the Wednesday service. And we led that invitation for guys to come forward who are willing to throw the Nazi on the side, cast a vision for the Lord in the local church. And he's like, Lord willing, we're going to expand our vision and start a ministry to Hispanic community because we have Hispanic people in our church or in our community. And I was like, E.L., that's the kind of vision casting that we just all need to hear.

Dave: What are some attitudes that as you think about what they've done there in the last number of years between these two churches now one, two congregations that came together as one? What are some attitudes maybe you would identify that would require people to make such a big shift in in their their church to do that?

jim: Total trust and leadership. EL and Mike did a phenomenal job of making sure that the church knew that these changes were well thought through, prayed through. There was a huge camaraderie with the elders. So so the critics could not pick at the leadership and go, well, these guys are for it, but I know these guys aren't aren't. Man, whenever they did anything, there was a collective reasoning. The elders, E.L., Mike came together. And when you when you can look at your staff Church can look the staff and go, that group's impenetrable. That that group has a cohesive spirit about them. That's a selling point. You I mean that that's worth gold for the for the church. secondly, they they it was again a a grace-paced growth process. God was in it, got the Lord's blessing was upon it. So whenever they they did anything, they really truly felt that the Lord was guiding it, leading it, if you will. And and when you believe that your leadership is in tune with God, saturated in prayer, that this is a God thing, not a not a preacher thing, this is based on principle, not personality. People will follow that. And and people vote with their dollars. And there's so there's the giving it increased. and also you know this too, Dave, if you study church history, people want to be a part of something that's winning. I mean, we when we invest in in a in a market with our money, we invest in a market. That's growing, that's developing. We don't throw our money into something that's gonna die intentionally. we we like to cheer for teams that are winning. I mean, we'll cheer for teams that are losing, but we we really love cheering for teams that are winning. Why? Because we have a propensity to line up with stuff that's successful. Why? Why? Why would anybody want to line up with a church that's dysfunctional and dying? And and don't please don't tell me because you have a beautiful steeple or because the building's paid for, or or because the the preacher's been here for 75 years and he's And he also is the Grand Marshal of the Christmas break. That that's not empowering people to go to your church anymore, okay? And it should have never been to begin with. People want to be a part of something that's life-changing. They want to wake up every Sunday morning and go, we're going to go to the Lord's house because that church is changing my life. It's relevant to where I am and where my family needs to be. They will walk on hot coals to be at your church, to worship with you, because you're relevant to their needs, their spiritual needs. And and Compass has is has been able to do that. And Dave, I know you're not gonna say but you have done a phenomenal job, you and your staff and your leaders, of creating a compulsion in Millwood, Ohio. And that's why you guys are growing and developing. And again, people say, well, what's so special about Dave Jones and E.L. Jones? Outside they share the last name. You know what? They're vision casters. They're they're led by the Holy Spirit. And guys out there listening, you don't have to have last name Jones, okay? to be successful, but you have to be spirit led and you've got to be tail willing to take risks. Yes, risks for the kingdom. And I'm telling you, if you'll take those kind of risks, you'll take some hits, man. But at the end of the day, you will be blessed.

Dave: appreciate that, Jim. so just a couple more minutes here. first question would be for a fella that Would love to throw the nets to the other side, but lax, let's just say, some vision, not sure what direction to go. What are some practical ways that some things that maybe he could look at and say, we're gonna start here and then move move that direction? And then just some closing comments to inspire us to to follow Jesus in this way.

jim: Okay, if you're f if you're fearful, congratulations. every leader has experienced fear. Number two, read Hebrews 11th chapter every day for 30 days. Just read Hebrews 11 and realize that every one of those people operated a little bit out of fear. Rahab's like, I don't know if I want to hide you guys. Like, you don't have to hide us, but I'll tell you this, when these walls fall down, your family's going down with it. Now you want to hide us? She's like, I think I will. If you read her history, she married a Hebrew. And if you read Matthew 1, we got Rahab and the ancestry of Jesus. Boom. She was fearful, but her fear did not outweigh her faith. And Abraham, the same way. I mean, go to a country. I'll tell you later where you're going. It's like I I don't go anywhere where I don't know where I'm going, Lord. I mean, I don't even go across the street unless I have a reason until I know how to get there. But he did. So, preacher, if you're fearful, congratulations. Hebrews 11 is a litany of men and women who were fearful but didn't let the fear eclipse their faith. Number two. You only go around once, preacher. Okay, it's not like, well, if I fail this time around, I got nine lives, I'll catch up on the eighth and seventh. No, this is it. This is it. So you have to decide right now what kind of impact are you gonna make in the kingdom? What kind of impact are you gonna make in your community? Okay. Do you want to be remembered as a preacher that just kind of took up real estate? A guy that existed? Or do you want to be a preacher that's gonna be remembered as one who actually lived? Okay. So you gotta decide how you want your life, your ministry to be defined. Okay. Number three, we're you're operating the institution, if you will. Some people get offended by that. Just go with it. The institution that was bought and paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ. I mean, my goodness, it's not like a couple investors got together, threw some money at something, and it didn't work. It's like, they'll make it up in the next stock boom No, it was bought and paid for by Jesus' blood. If you blow

Dave: Bolt, yeah. Or bear?

jim: it, let's say you blow it, you're you're you're gonna mess up the very thing that Jesus bought and paid for by his blood. You can't afford to mess up that. It's been bought and paid for by something so valuable. So guys, I I I just look, I people like, well, Jim, you you're kind of a you know, you take charge kind of guy. Listen, I s I had sleepless nights before we went through the our our capital campaigns. before we started other schools and added the k the the the ministries the I I I was like, Lord, anybody but me, anybody but me. I was feeble. But when God took control of my ministry and he began to work through me, I was I was a s I was a giant. I was David. Now I could take on anything. But I realized it was because the Holy Spirit was now working in me. You're not in it alone. You have an advocate, that is one who walks beside you. That's what the word advocate means in the Greek, one who walks beside you. So, preacher, please know you're not alone. You're walking with God. And, but, but, preacher, you got to make a decision right now with your elders. How do you want to be defined as a church in your community? A place that just takes up real estate or a church that's really, really changing lives and redirecting people from hell to heaven. And when you understand that role, you take that role seriously. Nothing can stop.