speaker-0: Welcome to Church on Mission, the podcast of the Christian Restoration Association. As always, I'm Dave Jones from the Millwood Church of Christ. And from the back of his van down by the river, Jim Book, wherever he is in Backwater America, tell us about that curtain, buddy. What's going on?

speaker-1: I'll tell you what. So so Jeanette and I decided this fall that we would rent an apartment up here in Jeffersonville, Indiana, which is right next to Louisville. So we had dinner last night in Louisville, but in order for her to travel with me, she got a traveling nurse job. And when she's off, she can go with me instead of driving all the way back to the hills of Alabama. I only go halfway up here in Louisville. So I I I Jeanette and I decided we're gonna try this. If it works, we may do it again. But this is our little apartment here in Louisville, Kentucky. And I know it looks like a Waffle House bathroom, but just bear with me. you're you're gonna be so impressed with our guest folks, you're gonna forget how ugly this backdrop is.

speaker-0: Yeah, we are excited to have Buddy Bell. He's the lead minister from the landmark church in Montgomery, Alabama, in his 30th year there. And he's actually Jim's preacher. Jim and Jeanette attend church at Landmark.

speaker-1: So Dave, when Jeanette and I, we retired, sold our house and moved to Montgomery, Alabama, everybody asked why. And I said, Well, our our son in law graduated from FBI Academy, they stationed him in Montgomery. We have two grandkids. Where else do grandparents go? They build a house right next to their kids. So we did.

speaker-2: Yeah.

speaker-1: And Jeanette got here a little earlier than me because she landed a great job at Baptist South Hospital and the mother baby in it. And those jobs don't come around a lot. So she left a little early. And of course, I glided down at Kissimmee Christian. I told the elders we don't want to leave too soon. So we stretched out as long as we needed to before we finally followed suit and we came up with her. But she called me and she's You're gonna, you're not gonna believe this. I found a great church. And I said, Okay, you know. And she goes, it's it's landmark church of Christ. And I was like, really? Who's the preacher? She said, Buddy Bell. And I said, Jeanette, I think he played third base for the Texas Rangers. And she's No, I think it's a different one. and I said, All right. And I said, I knew the name was familiar because I hired our first full-time campus minister at the University of Central Florida. And when I interviewed him, he said, There's a guy that changed my life. His name was Buddy Bell. And I was like, Okay, that's great. And I went. my goodness, I've I've heard of Buddy. Well, I started going there. We started going there. And I gotta tell you, man, it is a phenomenal church. Phenomenal leadership, incredible vision, and and partly due to the to the lead evangelist, Buddy Bell. So Buddy, welcome on to the Church on Mission podcast.

speaker-2: Well, thank you. I've disappointed many teenagers in Texas when Buddy Bell was playing baseball and I was speaking at youth rallies and my hair was black and his was blonde. So I'm very glad to be here. And Jim, we love, love every time you're around. You're such an encourager. And just it's great being introduced to a whole new realm of ministry.

speaker-1: Well, I'll tell you, I I er just real quick, the only thing I don't like about landmark, Dave, and buddy, is I thought after 30 years of really two highly successful churches, that there's not a one thing I would have done differently as the lead minister. After about two weeks at Landmark, I started going out of the door going, Man, Jeanette, if I had known that, we would have done it differently at Kissimmee. And so that's the only thing about landmark I don't like is they do it so well. That I catch myself going, okay, if I'd seen that, we would have done it just like that. So, buddy, I gotta tell you, it's it's a great church, but it's and it has a great future, but the history was a bit challenging. And so Dave and I were kicking around what to call this podcast. And so we we landed with the the deaf. This is the title when dangerous traditions, not traditions, but dangerous traditions interfere with biblical growth. And buddy. Every time I share your story in the Christian church movement, and most of our audience is made up of churches of Christ, Christian Church that are instrumental, whenever I share landmark's story, the look on their face is like, How did landmark pull that off in the deep south? And I said, Well, two things: a godly leadership, a preacher with an incredible vision, and a team of people that were not gonna allow Unhealthy traditions to eclipse what God can do. So, buddy, I'm gonna just let you take it from there. You're in Montgomery, Alabama. You've grown up in the non-instrumental churches of Christ, and we I have the utmost respects for the non-instrumental church of Christ movement. I do, I've got some concerns, as we all do, but you decided to do something in Montgomery, Alabama that that I don't know that anybody had really ever done in the deep south. I know other guys in the churches of Christ had done this in Texas and California, but You tell us the story of what you did at Montgomery.

speaker-2: Well, yeah, interrupt me at any point. when I got out of college back in the early 80s, my first job was youth minister at Landmark. And it was a great church, but extremely, I would call legalistic, strict. And I was beginning to grow in my view of grace and the spirit and those things. And Stephanie and I had just gotten married and so we had left and I worked as a campus minister at University of Alabama and then preaching job in Pensacola. I always loved landmark, but I I can tell this story after being here 30 years. I would have nightmares that I accepted a job in Landmark as their preacher because I knew we were just on two different paths. And landmark was the larger proud conservative churches of Christ in Montgomery. And it was nineteen ninety six and I was a in Pensacola, I was going to speak in Birmingham, what was it? Elders at Landmark called and said, Would you come by my house on your way? And I knew they were looking for a preacher. and I told my wife, I said, Don Tarot called, they want me to come by and eat lunch with them. I think they're looking for a preacher. And she said, Buddy, just tell them what you believe and they'll tell you not to let the door hit you on the way out. And so, you know, I I showed up, I sit down in the living room, and with no discussion, they offer me the job. And my first words were, You're crazy. And then I obeyed my wife. I told them everything I believed. I made up Dave a few things I didn't believe. It's just like, guys, I know Montgomery, I know Lamore, I know me. This is not good. But just long story short, those men were tired of fighting about silly stuff every Sunday. You know, they build a new building and growing area of town. and they're just they're just fighting over small things. And they had planted a church in inner city Montgomery and learned we do things different down there. Why are we doing 1950 Church of Christ here? It's not working. And so we said yes. And we came and it was pretty crazy. Show you how crazy, after about a couple of weeks, a man asked if he could come talk to me. I knew this guy was probably not happy with him hiring me. And I knew he'd sort of persecuted a preacher before me. So he came in my office and asked me all the controversial questions in the churches of Christ of that day. about musical instruments, praise teams, Christians and other churches, you just name it. And just I'm being bold. I'm not holding back. Well, little did I know he secretly tape recorded the conversation. And so I didn't know that. He had a jacket on. And so he transcribes that recording and goes to the elders and said, either you fire buddy or I'm in cause trouble. Well we had some serious praying to do right there. But I had a group of four men who one said I'm can't live in legalism another day. Another who's the architect of our beautiful building said, if we gotta sell this building start all over, that's what we'll do. So they called him back in, he mailed these things all over Montgomery to every landmart member. It was given out at Faulkner University. And the next Sunday we came together as a church. They marked him, I responded to the six charges But basically talked about here's what the gospel is. Here's what we have to be united on. Here's the things we don't have to be united on. So, that was a a red letter day. And I I've never seen it happen in another church quite that way. I don't know that I would even recommend it. But we moved 10 years in one Sunday. Everything was on the table. Either you stayed or you left, and not many left. The the the rumor was landmark will never make their building payment. But from that moment on, we just boomed. And it was people who'd been heard in churches of Christ. And we started reaching lost people. And that was our goal. Every decision we made was mission focused. is it biblical and is it gonna be effective? And if it was, we're probably in bright traditions. Question there.

speaker-1: So, buddy, let me let me stop you there. I know for you, and everybody thinks whenever a non-instrumental church of Christ breaks free and expands, it's only about music. So once they throw the piano and guitar on stage, everything is fine. But you're you're saying it was much more, much deeper than just can we play an instrument on Sunday? So walk us through the fundamental issues that that even prompted that one argument.

speaker-2: Well, sure. the the the real conservative churches of Christ I grew up in what bothered me is they were completely issue oriented. Okay. Bothers me somewhat about many of what we would call more of our progressive churches is somehow they're just still issue oriented, but on the other side. Right. So we wanted to be Jesus focused. We want to be mission focused. we weren't out just to break traditions, but we were out to reach people for Jesus. And I'll never forget when one of the elders stood before the church and said, We want you all to know from now on, your elders are not gonna make decisions according to what makes you happy. We're gonna make decisions according to what makes God happy. So

speaker-1: Okay.

speaker-2: our people followed that bold kind of leadership because so many churches change just to change, or just to say we're not the church we grew up in. That's not worthy. But changes for lost people and discipleship sake, that's worthy of a sacrifice. And God, God bless that. And you know, we're very united, church. And then so that led to many changes from, you know, in in our fellowship, a praise team, upfront praise team, small groups instead of a service. just sort of a general attitude toward other people, you know, and an embracing sometimes the diversity of of of beliefs and that we learn together on the secondary matters. And so it it just changed our whole spirit. in the deep south, unfortunately, we have an extremely judgmental, arrogant you know, reputation. I mean, part of what I have to do every time people come to landmark, I taught a class two days ago we called Landmark 101. I've got to tell my church of Christ people why we're not that church. And I got to tell my non-church of Christ people Why they don't have to be afraid of us. And so that's fun. But I love our heritage. I love the restoration idea. We want to be solidly grounded in scripture. But it's like you said at the beginning, we're not going to put tradition on the same level.

speaker-1: Well, buddy, I've noticed too, because Jeanette and I, we, we Buddy is not he is he's he's gonna be straight and and highly focused and not a respecter of persons. So Jeanette and I took the first steps class or connect class. Buddy, I thought A number one, you did a phenomenal job. I loved how you brought in your the rich history of the of the Church of Christ movement and and you were very, very eloquent about how much you you cherished your history and the the the benefit of growing up in a church of christ environment and yet you segue so beautifully and look here's the deal we're not gonna let traditions get in the way of biblical growth and authority and man everybody walked out of that class going okay this church is a new testament church but it's it's not gonna be dictated by old unscriptural traditions and and and tr and trademarks that are are are not even biblical and passe. Now I've noticed something about what you do at landmark or I guess we say what we do. you have found an incredible way of of taking both traditions or not really both one tradition both styles and putting it together into one one Sunday package and it's it I've never seen a church split equally you've got about 300 folks who make the 830 service and it's non it's non instrumental there's I noticed there's multiple vocalists and then at 1030 it's a full set of musicians and instruments but it's not a 70 30 80 20 split it's amazing how almost the numbers are identical and some would say well you're appeasing both and you better land the plane on one, but y you you you you haven't had to do that. You still offer that. Tell us how you all came to that decision. I'm out not saying it's not an or church, it's an and. We'll do both and well. How did you how did you come to that conclusion?

speaker-2: Well, we love a cappella music. We always did it exceptionally well. and forever I wanted to believe it was not any kind of a barrier because hey, we do it great, it's not going to one guy with a song leader and nothing sounds good. and so but when we started seeing our young people grow up and leave our tradition, when I mean, can remember baptizing a kid, I'm I met at the YMCA. And baptized him, came to church with me. And man, I thought we had this great. I Grant, what'd you think? He said, That humming business is really weird. I think we weren't we weren't humming, we were singing. And so we just faced that we were lacking a group of people we couldn't reach because it was just a barrier. And so we didn't want instruments or non-instruments to be the focus. We want the the mission to be the focus. And so you know, we came to a decision. We had a month-long Bible study with our church about that because of the tradition we came from. We answered questions. What I love about our leadership is if they make a decision and they feel like it's grounded, nobody can just say, well, I don't like that or that makes me uncomfortable. That's that's not going to stop things. And so we made the the the transition. And it's really it's it's something that's funny to me because some of our church Christ people were just so hungry for instrumental worship. Some of our people from other churches actually come to the a cappella and go, Wow, I love the simplicity and beauty of that. So both services are about even. Our people go back and forth, somewhat. They're everything else is pretty much the same. But we've been able to do to this point both very successful. But I I think about some people just over the last few weeks who've given testimonies in our church who are changed in I could point to you lots of them we would not have reached before. And I'm so happy for my shepherds, my elders. None of us had to have this at our age. We loved acapella music. But they made that decision because they love people. And now to see it be successful, and we you can't promise that. average a cappella church or twice loses at least 20% of their members if they start an instrumental service. We didn't. We lost a few, but quite we've gained so many more. And so I love that they get to see they made a gutsy decision and they're seeing the fruit of it.

speaker-1: So, Dave, I don't want to, I feel so guilty. My compadre and fellow podcast member, I feel like I've just hogged this whole interview. So I'm gonna ask this a question, buddy, to you, and then I'm gonna let Dave chime in. Yeah. Obviously, when you go into like Ohio, where Dave is the preacher, Millwood Church of Christ. So I'll I'll mention, I go to the Church of Christ, and I'm like, and then I go, no, in the in the South, the term Church of Christ means something totally different. The state of Florida, you know, almost 216 Christian churches. but I think two independent Christian churches refer to themselves as Church of Christ. All right. So there's that Mason Dixon line when you cross that. We all know your Christian church or church of Christ. So just to for audience sake, when you refer to Church of Christ in the South, it's 99% of the time you're talking about a non-instrumental brothers and sisters. Okay. So so buddy, we have I was I I I didn't get off the plane, my wife and I didn't get off the plane yesterday, and I had a gentleman call me. From a church of Christ in Ohio, an instrumental church of Christ. And he's like, Pray for me. We have a huge meeting with our with the leaders of the church. We've got to make some tough decisions in regard to the facility. It's a nineteen he kept saying it's nineteen sixty facility. It's not adequate. But we're having some pushback from some of the leaders. So Christian church, we've already discussed the music. We've already we've we've already wrote we we've passed that, but we still are encumbered with these man-made traditions and these these precepts that we can't seem to shake. What what would advice, general advice, would you say to a guy in the independent Christian church who's facing the same type issues, although it's not about music, what would you tell him? How how do you make that bold move? How do you chase that lion and leave the house cats alone in 2 Samuel 23, Ben and I, how do you chase the big lion in your church?

speaker-2: I just I just think you have to to land on a biblical vision that's bold. I mean, go make disciples of all the world. What could be bolder? yeah. You you unite on that, you find your words that you use to express that, and you cause people to sacrifice. I mean, again, yeah, that's our weird change, but every church has their changes they have to make. And so we just call our people to sacrifice that comfort is not the standard in our church. The standard is what does God want and what will help us reach more people, disciple more people in Jesus. But I think your leadership, first of all, has got to be solid. And that's what we had through the years, earlier and lately, is okay, we're united, we're solid, we don't necessarily agree on everything, but we agree on the mission. And we're going to present that mission over and over to the church. And we're going to call people, because I I found it again because we recast our vision over the last few months. People will sacrifice for a great vision. They'll go out of their com their comfort zone for a great godly vision. And again, that's the basis of our unity. Our unity in the past was we agree on everything, which we never did. But that's what we tried to do. Right. Yeah. And so now it's it it's bigger than that. So I just think you gotta sell out your vision, you gotta communicate it well. And people I I love we had a man come to our church two years ago, really powerful man. He said, I walked in there, I knew what y'all are about immediately. We want people to know we're about. Yeah. So we come before the church and say, Hey, we need a new, you know, scre we need a more modern screen in the worship center, you know. and we're doing this to reach people. We need to do more in our community. We need to stretch our they're more willing to receive that.

speaker-1: Yeah. And it's obvious. And I I just Jeanette and I attending there, it's it's it's so obvious. It's refreshing. And to know the doctrine has always been the same in the church of Christ, but the freedom now to do things which I I think our non-instrumental brethren should have been doing years ago, you know. and you've you've man, you've set the bar high and and I tell you you've blazed a trail for all of us, buddy. I'm I'm even talking about those in the Christian church. And and instrumental churches of Christ. Man, you're you're a breath of fresh air. Dave, I know you have a couple of questions. I'll turn it over to you.

speaker-0: Buddy, we have all kinds of ministers and elders who listen to the podcast and love this idea of overcoming dangerous traditions for biblical growth. what are some of the traditions besides music that you faced over the years that you had to deal with along the way?

speaker-2: sure, sure. traditional Sunday night services, people clapping during the song, raising their hands. you know, just some of the cooperative things we do with other churches, you know. so some of those kind of traditions. I'm trying to think. it's it's been a great journey and and we've all grown in it. you know, are people gotten flexible about service times and are we doing this or you know, we you know, used to be, you know, you could never cancel Bible class or Wednesday nights or we do it all, but if we think we got a month we need to give our people a break, you know, we do it. We're we're also pretty very sold out small groups. And so we try for everything to to sort of center around getting people in a smaller setting. And that's caused us to change a lot of things we do. And that that's partly partly of breaking some of the conditions.

speaker-0: A a lot of the churches we work with are very conservative, traditional, and it seems the concept of faithfulness is based off of that checklist Christianity. I was around the table on Sunday morning, took the emblems back on Sunday night, read my Bible every day and and those kinds of concepts there. But we've really tried to promote some of what you've referred to there. To grow bigger, you gotta get smaller. And those those closer relationships in home groups or small groups are are vital. So what what are some sort of behind the scenes leadership concepts that you would give to our guys that would help them understand how to take that the vision for what the church ought to be? And then number one, lead their leadership team, the elders in particular, and then turn and and lead the congregation in a broader sense.

speaker-2: think that you've got to build a lot of trust between your leaders. I I like to think of myself as being innovative and and visionary, but I'm not gonna go out and do something with my leaders not knowing. For instance, in our our instrumental service, we take communion at tables. Some companies we do with the cappella servers too, but traditionally we pass there. I can remember the first time we did that. I mean that was quite we were gonna get a you because we had that bubble view of communion. Not both ways. And so I remember us talking that through the eld with the elder. I remember one of my more introverted elders saying, that just it makes me uncomfortable. But but we worked through it and then we did it, and then they saw the blessings of it. So I think trust being built. I I see so many churches where the eldership and the ministry staff are at odds with each other. And I I think Satan can use that. So we've got to build no, we are very, very careful about who we appoint as elders, we don't just take nominations and do it. it's because we've seen churches, we've been that church before where a couple new elders come in and they don't they change the whole direction. We're very careful about who we hire staff. Do you do you agree with this vision? I mean, you know, in today's world we live, do we agree on sexual ethics? You know All those things. I think you have to work hard for there to be great agreement in your leadership about what you're after and what you'll you'll do. So, you know, we just have very open conversations. we all know we don't always have to agree, but it's okay. It's you know, we've had a lot of open conversations through the season our country's in. And you know, I've been to too many leaderships where They just won't have the hard conversations. We're willing to have them, then we're willing to make decisions. And when we walk out of that room, we're together. Yeah. There's got to be unity. That's good. And you know, sometimes we will go to, you know, our group of deacons or ministry leaders and throw out some ideas and say, just give us some feedback. We're we're thinking about doing this. What do y'all think? Give them the presentation first. That's helped us.

speaker-0: Good. Jim, what are some distinctives you see in that respect with Buddy and the church at Land Market from a leadership perspective, what they're doing?

speaker-1: A couple things, buddy, Jeanette and I noticed immediately is you have and and just let me say this too. We have started through the Christian Restoration Association a mission 120 program. A mission 120 is to help all the Christian churches and churches of Christ that we work with, which are hundreds and hundreds, over the next four years g average a hundred and twenty in their attendance. Now again, we're there's no magic number to You don't have to have under 20 or God's going to take your blessing away. But we 70% of our churches right now are running under 100. And if if we don't change the trajectory of our vision and our plan, not the message, the beauty is the game plan, game books, perfect. But the way we articulate it, we're going to be down to 80, 60, and 50, and maybe out of business. So we're we're really challenging churches now to think about growth and not just about growth, but think about vision so you can get to growth. So We've had a number of churches jump on board with this plan. But one of the things, buddy, we're trying to get churches to understand is growth doesn't happen by accident. It's planned. Show me your vision, I'll show you your destiny. Without a vision, you have no destiny. All right. So one thing I've noticed at Landmark is you're very good about if you're gonna, if you're gonna launch something or you're gonna promote something, you always seem to bring somebody on stage that can testify to the success of that. For instance, just before Jeanette and I t took off for our pilgrimage and traveling for the CRA, it was a heavy promotion of life groups. And because life groups were kicking back off. It was the fall. I know you guys like to take summer off, which is great. So you had this incredibly beautiful couple on stage. And I know strategic, they were young, you know, they were, kind of but life groups and they they talk about how life groups change their life and how life groups is What connected them to the core of the church. And so they were more than just the Sunday morning attendees. So talk to talk to us about how you and the staff are so strategic about how you market. I know a lot of people are offended by that word, but don't, how you market your, your plan, your ministry and and your vision to the body so effectively.

speaker-2: Well, it it calls for a lot of meetings, we do a lot of worship planning. We try to decide what we're gonna focus on. Well, we just finished a calendar meeting this morning for next year. Okay. So let's make sure we don't have too many things to promote at the same time, which we're not always good at, but we're we're trying to be. And you know, just make sure you gotta also decide what are what are the big things, what are the things you're gonna have that you're not gonna just promote like crazy. we love things like friend day. We had a friend and a few weeks ago. I can't tell you the minor people. I know people say that attractional churches don't work and all these things. And I'm telling you, those kind of things work, but what you mentioned, I think, is a key. I don't think there's anything more powerful than a testimony. Right. You know, a change. The couple you talked about there, normally they just come to landmark a year ago. He had not really grown up in a strong Christian tradition. He was from the West Coast. She had grown up in a church class tradition and completely rebelled against it. He came to the Lord first and then got her coming. And then they were living together when they came here. And so we had to sit down and have a long conversation about that. They were able to do their marriage and just beautiful things in the small group, just molded them. So I'm learning the more people I can have telling their stories, the better. And Used to just have one person at a time, but I found the interview really works well for a lot of people. Yeah. And we had some young man last Sunday who grew up in our church, you know, lived a wild life, not out of rebellion. He just didn't think he was worthy. So our he had some young kids. He came for two years and brought them to a great program we have on Wednesday night, sat in the parking lot. Because he didn't think he was worthy to walk in. Wow. And now he's a changed man. So I think a variety of testimonies from different perspectives are are really, really important. Well and

speaker-1: For every other person that sits in a parking lot at a church because they're not they don't feel worthy, when they hear that story and they could have a face to that, they're like, Okay, I'm gonna get of the car and I'm gonna walk into that building because if that guy can do it, so can I.

speaker-2: yeah. the last question was Zach. If there's someone sitting in the audience today who don't who doesn't think they're worthy, we were we've had a series called The Three Chairs, who, who's doesn't even know, but he she said, Buddy, I didn't the third chair is we first chair is just to hear the word of God and forget it. Second to make superficial religious changes, and the third's to surrender your heart. And Zach said, I I didn't even know there was a third chair. No. And he said, Now I'm I said, What are you gonna say to that person? Who's sitting there today? It was just it was

speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. That's fantastic. Buddy, I I think we're out of time, which which is terrible because you could all day with this interview. Man, thank you so much for your time and and your sharing with us. And landmark is truly a landmark church. It is it's a trendsetter. It's it's it's gonna help other churches with their vision. And I would just encourage anyone watching this, buddy. Would you mind sharing your email address to any maybe a preacher just says, Man, I got some questions or I don't want to load you up with more work than you already got on your plate, but man, there may be some guys that are like, We can do this.

speaker-2: Let me say this. You're so kind. But we learned a lot from independent Christian churches, we'd call them. You know, going to seminars, you know, when that division started falling apart. That was beautiful. And I embraced that. Well, I got a lot more in common with you guys than I do with some in my own movement. And so thank y'all for what you've talked about. My email, buddy at landmark.church. It actually works. Buddy at landmark.church.