Dave: Well, welcome to Thrive on Mission, the CRA podcast. We're so glad you've joined us for another week. I am Dave Jones. And as always with Jim Book, Associate Director of the Christian Restoration Association. And Jim, looks like you made it back home.

James Book: Yes, we are home day. We spent the weekend with the Bristol Christian Church in Bristol, Florida. It's in the Panhandle. voted on their new minister of the Sunday I was there. And so some good things are going to start happening. We did something a little different this week. And normally when do seminars, it's casting a church vision. So it's a broad vision for the church, but they asked me to come in and do some leadership development with their elders and deacons. And so that was fun. And we did that and we're going to head back again in the fall and do some more material with their leaders. But I'm excited for where God's getting that church and where they're heading. And the CRA is always grateful to be a part of that evolution of growth and development within the churches.

Dave: Jim, you say leadership development. you mean on more of a church polity standpoint or more of leadership qualities that are needed in those positions?

James Book: We kind of focused on roles and qualities and we spent a ton of time on conflict resolution. And so we spent a lot of time on recognizing conflict is inevitable. All right, so let's not run from it. using the book of Acts, we really just immersed ourselves in that conference in Jerusalem. just the steps that were taken, know, hey, they all hurt each other. They brought everybody in. They didn't jump to conclusions and they came together for principal compromise. Here's what we're not gonna teach anymore is we're not gonna force on people, but here's where we are gonna land. And everybody came away happy. And if they can do that, so can we.

Dave: That's good. know, Jim, when we do like premarital counseling for couples, one of the big topics is always conflict resolution and communication. It's just inevitable in personal relationships and church relationships that if we're working with people, to do what's best and try to make good decisions, there's going to be conflict. And so it's good to address those things.

James Book: Right. Well, you notice in the book of Acts, who were a little more sympathetic to the Jewish ideology, the zealots, if you will, and then you had Paul speaking on behalf of the Gentiles, what I've noticed in that conference, when everybody came together, they all had one thing in common. We want to end this thing ⁓ and right, ⁓ not personally, be right by God. We want the church to be healed. And man, put aside their egos, personal agendas, even their own personal opinions, all got, you know, put to the side. All they wanted was the church to come out of this thing healthier. And like you said, marriages, business relationships, church relationships, leadership, it all comes together if we want what's best for the kingdom. But you got to remove the ego. You got to get rid of that. It's got to leave the room. Man, they cannot fix anything. You got a super ego in there.

Dave: Yeah, well thanks for sharing that. It sort of gives us a different perspective on things you're doing besides just church growth. I think that's sort of easy to pigeonhole a guy in a certain capacity and skill set, but there's so much more to the church than just trying to add people to the seats and obviously to immerse people into Christ and make new Christians. So appreciate that kind of work too that you're doing.

James Book: Well, I appreciate it. was a joy and they're good, good guys and was a good, their future is looking really good. Excited about that.

Dave: Jim, one of the last things we're gonna cover in your book on the Axe Model of Growth ⁓ being a Spirit-driven church. And so today might get a little more theological than you and I often do. We're not the theology nerds, we're the ministry nerds. So we'll handle it from ⁓ a good perspective, I think. But before we hit there, I just wanna talk about the game ball. You had somebody in mind for our game ball.

James Book: Yeah, you know, Dave, we have a gentleman that has been following this podcast religiously, and he was the first to literally get in line after the conference in Ohio and say, hey, I want to get our church involved in evangelism. We want to get these church cards. And if I might make one more plug for these, the CRA is a big believer in getting these in everybody's hands at your church or something, and just let your congregation in on evangelism, spread the seed, inviting people. So Man, Brad Kirkland jumped all over this and he got these cards printed up from our tech and graphics people at the CRA. I think he's showing one of our podcasts at a Sunday school class. don't know, but he is. Good news. They averaged 47 last month. They actually broke 50, I think, a couple of weeks ago, but he was very excited about the trajectory that this church is on. when you've been running 30 and now you're hitting 47, that's something to celebrate. It's all about meeting God's goals, not ours. And it's a God goal for them. So we love Brad, appreciate what he's doing. And help me out where, Brad's in Ohio, Dave.

Dave: Yeah, real close to us, about 40 minutes, a place called Holmesville, Ohio, Holmesville Church of Christ. And he is ⁓ on fire for the work of the Lord up there. And they've actually, they have another fellow who helps preach as well. His name is Willie Parrott. He's ⁓ one of the elders and he shares the preaching responsibility. And we've got a long history at that church, so it's good to see them.

James Book: Okay. Yep, that's it. That's great.

Dave: little bit on fire in that way and we're just praying that they continue to succeed and I think there's you know, Jimmy bring up a really good point there about 47 or whatever that number is for people every community is different every is different. Everybody's history is different You could be in the fastest growing county in the United States of America and your church could be shrinking You know, there's so much this did what's going on in the church. It's just our duty not to worry about the results, but the

James Book: Very good. Absolutely. Right.

Dave: the work that God has given us to do.

James Book: Correct. And I don't want it to be about numbers. know Mission 120, whenever they hear us, we're always throwing numbers out. That's a goal. Hitting 120 over four years because again, 70 % of our churches in America, Christian churches and Churches of Christ are under 100. Is that a bad thing? No. If you're in a town of 300, you're running 100, that's a third of the town. Are we meeting our God-given guide, goals? It's just a goal to reach. And if God's given us a goal, we ought to reach it. And so that's what this is. And I don't know if you saw the article yesterday, David, the Southern Baptists are in a tizzy because a high percentage of their churches, they're noticing, are running under 50. And so this epidemic of faltering churches in America is a crisis. But our goal is because we are die-hard restorationists. I'm just a big believer in the concepts, the theology of the Church of Christ, Christian Church. I've not apologized for that. believe it's the copy, a model of the first century church can be found in our doctrine. And so I just don't want the Christian churches and churches of Christ to ⁓ filter into ⁓ non-existence. And we have to be serious about growth though, in order to... ⁓ to develop and mature as a church.

Dave: as a quick note for those who don't know that game ball is a $25 gift certificate or code really for the CRA bookstore. All kinds of commentaries there, books as as restoration history and other things that would be great for anybody to check that out at the CRA.org. The CRA.org. So this week, Jim, let's hit it. We're going to be talking about being a Holy Spirit driven church and you say a Holy Spirit driven church is an unstoppable church. ⁓

James Book: Yes.

Dave: an unstoppable church. Why is that so critical to understand?

James Book: Well, we took the word, ⁓ the word axe down, the S, spirit driven. So we know we're not to quench the spirit. And a lot of times when theologians read quench the spirit, when sin comes into our life, the Holy Spirit can't live in our lives. ⁓ So we're doing is we're driving the spirit out. And I agree with that. But I've also expanded that verse a little bit and said, okay, is it possible for the Holy Spirit ⁓ to driving someone to do something? Okay, we know that if sins in our life, if we regard iniquity in our heart, the Lord will not hear us. All right, so sin squelches the spirit. But how about this? How about if the Holy Spirit through the Word is prompting the church to do something, the leadership to do something, and they don't listen to that guidance of the scripture and they refuse to do that, would that also be an example of toning down or squelching the spirit? And I'll answer the question, yes, yes. And so the S in spirit driven is, okay, what's the Holy Spirit through the Word? convicting your church leadership to do. You know, if there's a man in the church that the elders have spoken to about being an elder, and he's like, no, I don't have the time. And yet the Lord is like, look, I've given you the talents and abilities to be leading the church and you don't. I think that man is the spirit. You know, if a woman has been asked to teach, great teacher, works great with kids, she doesn't have the time. ⁓ I believe she's guilty. of squelching the spirit. it's not just, know, sin is not just defined as blatant disobedience. Sin can also be defined as willful disobedience in doing what is right. And I just, I think that's where a lot of churches have fallen into.

Dave: Jim, in our tradition, when we start talking Holy Spirit, that gets a little bit scary for some of us. ⁓ We think back to the book of Acts, there were times that it was very clear the Holy Spirit had stopped Paul from moving. We see that he sent them ⁓ So there's some very clear Holy Spirit movement going on in the book of Acts that we would put in that miraculous category. That leads us to think about individuals in the more charismatic churches. ⁓

James Book: Mm-hmm. Right.

Dave: and use, if you will, of the Holy Spirit. So where do we draw that line between discerning the in the modern church versus some of these things that we would say don't fit anymore in the modern church?

James Book: Great question. If all we did was let the scriptures empower us, that's all we need. Because I believe the Spirit speaks through scriptures. Now, does the Spirit speak through vessels? I think any preacher that's preaching a great message from the Word, the Holy Spirit is using him as a vessel, speaking the oracles of God. So my point is, look, I the apostles were endowed with a special gift. I get that. But let's go back to the 120 where mission 120 was birthed. If those 120 did not have the gifts that the apostles did, which I don't think they did, they were still an integral part, I think, in the growth development of the early church. And so why can't the 120 who have scripture, who are empowered by the Holy Spirit, we get a gift of the spirit of baptism, why can't we do great things? I believe we can. I believe that greatest tool we have is the Scriptures. think we could do greater things than even the apostles. I don't need to speak another language. I don't need to raise people from the dead. I don't need to raise sick people from hospital, but I don't even need to do that. I've got something greater. I've got the entire Scriptures from ⁓ books of poetry, the Pentateuch, minor prophets, major prophets. mean, ⁓ that history of God moving through his people and the book of Acts and the Pauline Epistles, I mean, how can we go wrong? So that's the tool that the Spirit uses. I the Word is alive. It cuts, it heals, it inspires. And so I think if we just have inspired messages, Holy Spirit-inspired teaching, Holy-inspired life groups, we can turn the church on fire, totally around.

Dave: That's good. And we can't discount Holy Spirit-filled people in the sense of discernment, wisdom, answered prayers, counsel from other people, experience. God is going to use all of those things to help us better understand what direction the church and us individually as individuals need to go.

James Book: No! So, Dave, if I can just, I hate to use myself as example, I can show you many times where I have failed. I've quenched the spirit and not let the spirit guide me like it should have. But I'll tell you a verse that turned my whole life around. And that's the passage in Jude three, contend for the faith earnestly as was given to the saints. I'm paraphrasing. Dave, I'll tell you, when I did a dive on the word contend means to agonize for, I started to ask myself, Jim, do you really agonize for your church? I know you work for it. You develop messages. You have staff being, I mean, checked all the boxes, but I said, Jim, if have a family out there that's marriages on the rocks, do you agonize for them? You have a guy that's been visiting the church for three weeks and he's this close to coming forward to be baptized, but he hasn't yet. Are you okay with that, Jim? Or do you agonize over his lost state? Do you agonize over the fact that there's 30 seats that are empty in the auditorium that should be filled? And I learned if I don't start agonizing for it. then shortchanging the church, myself, and the Holy Spirit. That verse spoke to me. The Holy Spirit convicted me. And I to learn ⁓ more, more diligent about agonizing for my community, for lost people, for the church. Man, I didn't need the apostle Paul to have a lunch with me and teach to agonize for the church. Jude did the work for him, okay? Jude did all the work. And when I agonizing, greater things start happening in my own ministry and the church.

Dave: That's great. Well, let's look at this passage in First Peter four. I'll read just a few verses here because it really sets the tone for what you outline a Holy Spirit driven church looks like. is First Peter four starting in verse seven from the old faithful new standard. ⁓ The of all things is near. ⁓ Therefore of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.

James Book: Sure.

Dave: Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another because love covers a multitude of sins. Be hospitable to one another without complaint. As each one has received a special gift, employ it in serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. Whoever speaks is to do so as one who is speaking the utterances of God. Whoever serves is to do so as one who is serving by the strength with which God supplies.

James Book: Okay.

Dave: so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. And so this Holy Spirit driven church that's unstoppable, that first point is that church is a praying and a sober minded body of believers. Talk to us about that.

James Book: Yeah. Okay, well we all know what prayer is. If you do a deep dive on the word sober-minded in the Greek, it necessarily mean not drinking a canister of Jack Daniel. Okay, and although sober-minded mean not being drunk on wine. Actually, that word means to be aware of your surroundings, what's going on around you as a church. And that's what I love about what Race did for us, Dave, in our podcast, I think two weeks ago. That study, the DNA study of your community, that's how a church can be sober-minded. Who's in our community? Where are the needs? Where's the ⁓ How can we fix it with God's help? So a sober-minded body of believers is a church that's aware of what's going on in the world around them, its ⁓ and ⁓ readily available scripture is to fix those issues. So a church that's unstoppable, spirit driven, first of all knows how to pray and is also very aware of the hurt the situation going on around them in their community.

Dave: That's good. Jim, I read a book years ago a guy named Henry Blackaby, it's called Experiencing God. ⁓ got some divergent viewpoints there that we wouldn't hold to, of course, but he said something in there that fits this so well, I think. He just made me think of it that a lot of times in the church, we can be guilty of making plans and inviting God to join us in those plans.

James Book: Yes, yes, yes. Right.

Dave: instead of seeing where God is already working and joining God where he's working.

James Book: Yes. ⁓

Dave: And I wonder at times, you know, we get this vision for Mission 120 or we want to grow the church. We have a new ministry. And we can sit down and make all kinds of vision, mission, value plans, a strategic plan for three, five years and forget other than to say, oh, by the way, God bless this, that maybe God's not fully in it. And we're just

James Book: Right.

Dave: trying to do things of our own power.

James Book: Absolutely. sometimes I think we create problems and challenges where we don't. know one of ⁓ churches they ⁓ listened in on that ⁓ podcast where says, hey, here's find the DNA of your community ⁓ and join God. Okay, if God's working just join him. And they felt like after their study, their community, again, a lot of single moms in their town. And so they immediately picked up that laundromat ministry where we're going to go pay for people's laundries and you've got a captive audience, can't go anywhere, they're waiting for their clothes to be done. Well, these two women in this church want to minister to those people. And I thought, okay, ⁓ sober minded, who's in our town? What's the need? We know that to fix every need, Jesus has an answer to everything. who better to do that than God's God-fearing people? So they found where God was. God's people are there hurting, and they're going to join them. And so that's being sober-minded. And I'm sure they're going to pray over that ministry, pray over those people. How can that go wrong? How can that not work? I think it can. And a church, again, that's unstoppable is a praying, sober-minded body of believers.

Dave: Jim, when we look at the church in the book of Acts when they pray, they're praying even in the midst of persecution, they're praying for boldness, they want the mission to be advanced. When you think back to your years in the located ministry, what were some of your prayers like? it related to doing the work of the church, the outreach, evangelism? What were some of those prayers like maybe on a general scope?

James Book: my prayer life increased significantly when we were in the middle of these massive capital campaigns. You know, there's ⁓ lot at stake. What if we, you know, sign this loan and we ⁓ pay for it, you know? ⁓ just remember going to our leadership and saying, you know, ⁓ if God be for us, who could be against us? This can't go wrong if God's in the middle of it. And if God's gonna bless it, all we are is his tools. But I also, I wanted to be the kind of church in Acts 16 when the magistrate brought Paul and Silas in and said, are you the two that are turning the world upside down? I wanted to be the church in Kissimmee, in Winter Park. You know, I said, we may not be the church that turns this town upside down, but what if we thought of ourselves that way? And so we just started thinking in terms of that, set yourself up for victory, not defeat. So I can remember the nights before, you know, we had the big commitment Sundays, you know, all right. One church we were trying to raise three and a half million, the other church four and a half million. I said, okay, God, if we're be unstoppable, you're gonna have to shower us with a lot of blessing. And he did. In every situation, know, God just immersed us with his blessing and the givers came. And a lot of times we couldn't explain it. How did this money come in? And it's like, you know, that was a God thing. You can't explain it. It's to God working into people. And I truly, I saw God do things and I realized we can be unstoppable. We are an unstoppable entity. Thanks to Him.

Dave: So when, amen. And when we think about what Paul wrote, you know, I believe in Ephesians where he prays and mentions that we can do abundantly more than we ever imagine, right? ⁓ What that? ⁓ How we get that into terms? You're a visionary, you're in a big city, you've got big dreams, big goals, big opportunities. And you come to a small community that, you know, lot of these small country towns, Jim, they're just,

James Book: or 20.

Dave: They're barely hanging on and the churches are right behind them. ⁓ do we bridge that gap, if you will, to get many more dreams?

James Book: Right. ⁓ So I was in a church, yeah, that's an excellent point. So I was in a church in Pennsylvania doing a three day revival. informed me at kind of a, we had a brainstorming luncheon with some leaders and the preacher and some key families. And they said, you know, this town's so depressed and so small that even the elementary school closed. That's never a good sign. And they moved to this county or the city next door. And I said, well, who's coming into this vacant building? He said, well, What the city has done is they found a way to begin healthcare for senior adults. So they've actually, senior adult living organization bought the school and converting to that. I said, all right, so ⁓ sounds like you're gonna have a high population of senior adults. Yes. I said, okay, let's time out here. How's the church, if that's in your community, you wanna stay here, what are you gonna do to reach senior adults? I said, your entire vision now needs to be sculpted around reaching senior adults, because that's using your town. not athletes, not elementary school families, senior adults. And so they actually began a ministry that goes into the senior adults' homes with the gospel. see, okay, now, and that church actually, believe it or not, in the middle of nowhere Pennsylvania, when I say middle of nowhere, I'm telling you, they told me they have to go into town to hunt. That's how secluded, all right. So he, But the size of the church is relatively larger than the population of town. Per capita, they're doing very well, but they are so reminded and they're like, let's find out where God is. He's bringing senior adults in here. All right, well, let's join God by reaching them. Let's don't kill ourselves if we don't have the biggest youth program in the city. Let's don't kill ourselves if we don't build a gymnasium for young families. But let's minister to who's here. I'm telling you, Dave, I think we're making church growth way too difficult. The early church did it without social media, without cars, without planes, without technical directors, without a praise band or a smoke machine. And they turned the world upside down with guys on foot for crying out loud. What's stopping us?

Dave: Yeah. You know what I've seen here in the years that I've been around and before me with with Gene, our old preachers, we've just always tried to remember what the most important thing is we're doing. And we're not here for Sunday mornings. We're not here to have music we like. We're not here because we enjoy one another, though all of those things are true.

James Book: Yes.

Dave: We're here ultimately to win the loss to Jesus Christ. And so we've just always tried to keep that in front of individuals and inviting their friends, their neighbors. And so we'll have people that drive quite a distance to come to church here. But we just have always sought to keep at the center of everything we do the idea that

James Book: Yes.

Dave: that our number one job is to win people to Jesus Christ. And that idea of being sober minded is just being reasonable in part on what we're really about. And being careful, and this is, I would lie to you if I told you it wasn't.

James Book: Yes.

Dave: difficult at times. It's hard not to compare myself to other preachers or to compare our church to other churches and to become envious of things when they have successes on their own. And that is a challenge, but I've been fortunate to be humbled enough in the course of my ministry be reminded that God has put me in Millwood, Ohio for a purpose and put the elders here and the church here. And He has used the people of this congregation to reach this community.

James Book: Absolutely.

Dave: And we've just tried to stay ahead and follow along at different times when things change. And so that idea of being sober minded, praying of course, I that's gotta be just this, we have to have a lifestyle of prayer. has to be part of our DNA, our own DNA to pray. But we also have to keep in mind how important it is to just always be focused on what God would want for the church and what we think He would want best.

James Book: Absolutely. Well, two things, Dave, and say this not to ⁓ flatter you, but Paul mentions in 1 Thessalonians, he compliments the church for their and he said, you are a resounding using, paraphrasing, resounding influence in churches and the KI region and other regions. know, Millwood, because when I travel, your name comes up frequently and they're like, you know, Dave, and that congregation's done so much, so many good things and they always tag it on. And Dave's in a small farming community, which is a testimony like, okay, it doesn't matter where you are, small town, urban town, city. Go where God is and join. You guys have done a phenomenal job of taking a church that's in a rural area and maximizing your talents and abilities. And other churches, you've kind of taken the excuse away, well, we can't do this because we're in a farming town. We can't do this because we're in a rural part of America. Well, you know what? Rural America needs Jesus too. Dave, I compliment you and ⁓ leadership and the vision at Millwood. It's encouraging, let's put it ⁓ way. Very encouraging. One more thing about prayer, ⁓ a Holy Spirit-driven church is about prayer, ⁓ of the qualifications ⁓ put on Mission 120 is please ask your elders before they start their elders meetings, even your life groups before they start life group sessions, even your Bible school classes, make sure as you go through your prayer list, great. Mission 120 needs to be priority one. How are we doing on our goal? If 120 baptisms is what we want over four years, Where are we with that? Let's talk about how we can pray for the new ones that haven't been and let's pray for the ones who have been. I think we need to, that needs to be priority one. The praying church, not just on the physical needs of the church, man, we've got to prioritize the spiritual needs. And so I said, okay, I would start off every meeting with where are we with Mission 120? How are we on that goal? Are we on track? If we're not, let's pray that God will bless it more. Let's be more intentional ourselves about it. So. You can't reach those goals if you're not saturating them in prayer.

Dave: Yeah, you use a really good word there, Jim. I love this word and think it's so fitting for the church. We've got to be intentional. And think we can fall into places of complacency ⁓ and not on where we need to be going and doing. ⁓ And I what Paul writes that we have to become all things to all men that we might win some. And so that idea fits into what you've talked a lot about from day one is understanding the DNA of your church and then Race did a great job leading us to that and just being intentional and making sure that our prayers and our efforts are for the cause of Christ in that way. So when Jim, when you think about a lot of churches ⁓ you encounter, What are maybe one or two key things you see successful churches doing to stay prayer-focused and intentional, or sober-minded is the word, in their effort to

James Book: Okay, ⁓ one thing I've noticed is that when you talk to the minister or leadership, tell me about your town. They know who's in it. They know the needs. And I think, okay, you're sober minded. You are aware of your surroundings. Okay, great. And then it's like, here's what we're doing to meet those needs. I've always loved when I talk to ministers and I will tell you, it's refreshing when ⁓ spiritual, growth. comes up in the conversation. And it's like, okay, that preacher, these leaders, they understand the Great Commission is not just for the first century, it's for them too. Now, juxtapose that with how disconcerting it is when you get into a leadership meeting and you are, you're just talking with a preacher and growth, dreams, aspirations, vision never comes up in the conversation. And like you said, Dave, so beautifully. If we're not intentional about growth, it won't happen. I'm telling you, I really believe it only happens when it drives us, when the Great Commission is the meta-narrative of our ministries. positive when that's in the conversation. A downside is when it never gets brought up. That's disconcerting.

Dave: And for ministers who by and large are watching the podcast, listening to it, what's some insight you could give them if they're working with an eldership or a group of leaders in the church that maybe they don't have this mindset? How might we counsel them to help those individuals grow in this area?

James Book: Well, one thing I do when I meet with leaders, ⁓ I'll have a blank piece of paper and I'll say, okay, I want you to write down five things that you want to see happen to this church and do not include cost, talent, because we're limited by our vision, not our resources. So let's just get it. Let's just get that on the table. What's limiting us is not a resource. I don't want to hear, well, we got mold in that back room or the van won't start. Okay, fix it. Your problem is you have no vision. Okay. That's why your church is dying. Not your resource. All right. It's amazing how guys will just sit there and write something down. You're not even dreaming? No one's even dreaming here? So it's refreshing when guys are like, sky's the limit. Yes, write that down because sky is the limit. We serve a big God, don't forget that. And so I always go for that. But you gotta dream, like you said, God can do eventually more we can imagine. We're not even imagining anymore. We quit imagining years ago. What are we gonna start imagining again? So that's always refreshing. And then once those goals get written, then we go around the table and then you'd be surprised David, how many times when we get around to the end, it's like, these are very redeemable. These are very permittable. We can do these. These are not extra, ⁓ it's going to take a big God, a lot of money, but you know what? These are within the scope of reality. And remember, dreams so big, I say this too much, that it can't happen without God. That's how you know you're a you're imagining in a big way. that nothing increases your elders prayer life, the preacher's prayer life, and the church's prayer life like those kind of goals. Because you know it can't happen without God. So we need to petition God.