Dave: Welcome to the Church On Mission Podcast. I am Dave Jones, and as always, I'm here from his grand estate with the Mr. Jim

jim: Ha ha ha.

Dave: Book. His background has been elevated. Looking

jim: Plantation in Alabama, right?

Dave: good. Looking good, Jim. Looks good, man. Really appreciate you and looking

jim: Thanks.

Dave: forward to our talk today. Hey, Hillsboro Family Camp what a great opportunity that was for so many people, but you had the chance to preach there a couple of times. Give us some insights, what it's like on the stage and some of the feedback you hear as as it relates to Hillsborough.

jim: Well, first of all, thank you, Dave. It's great to be back and I wanna thank all of our listeners because I've had different preachers like when are you and Dave gonna relaunch the on mission? And I said, It we know we're just taking some time off. Most of you know Dave had to spend some time in jail, which threw us way behind. but he's out now. Anyway. Hillsborough was great, Dave. First of all, it's a perfect time to to meet every all your friends, you know, you get to meet everybody that you've been talking with and emailing with and Facebooking with and So it's always a grand reunion. I love that. I was so honored to be asked to speak two times at the main session and then at the teen barn. And I'll tell you that was a revival in and of itself. but it it was a wonderful experience. And I I I want to thank Alex and the person to person ministry for all they do. And the CRA was well represented, Dave. John spoke too. and I saw a bunch of our board members that were there. And man, it was a great, great time.

Dave: And right before family camp started, you did a revival down in the area there. Tell us about that.

jim: Yeah, Marshall Church of Christ, where Tom Stoops is the preacher. Tom's been there over thirty years. but we had an opportunity to revival there. Kenny Zug, who also preaches in in the area He brought the music with his family. So it was a great Friday and Saturdays and Sunday. They're in a building program, Dave, and they're expanding and they're growing and And so they got a a nice donation at the end of the revival. They had two baptisms like a couple of days after the revival. A great turnout. I mean just just really good energy. And so that was a great way to segue into Hillsborough and finishing up at at at the Marshall Church of Christ. And I would like Dave, I'd like to give

Dave: Yeah, and yeah, yeah.

jim: him our game ball. I think he's our game ball guy.

Dave: Sounds great. Yeah, Tom's Tom's been there a while, very influential in that community and really grateful for the work the Marshall Church is doing

jim: Yes.

Dave: down there. Every year they have one of the men preach a hillsboro sermon that basically calls men into the ministry. And you had the chance to offer one of those sermons this year. And if I recall, there was a gentleman that responded and he responded to preach and his wife came forward to be baptized, if I'm not mistaken, a little bit later.

jim: Yeah, yeah. Right.

Dave: And yeah. And the sermon you preached there, just a powerful sermon, had a great impact. And we want to spend a little bit of time today digging into that a little bit, really from a practical aspect and understanding how the episode with Jesus and his apostles really is a great model for us today in learning to trust Jesus in our ministries.

jim: You know, absolutely. And one thing about our podcast for those who may just be joining in, and for our faithful followers, thank you, is Dave and I try to be extraordinarily biblical, number one, but take the biblical concepts and make them practical to the day. I think it was one famous preacher that said, You know, I believe every preacher ought to preach with the Bible in one hand and a newspaper in the other, because the Bible is so relevant to everyday life situations. And so for churches today. There's just so much raw material for growth and development within the local church that we find in the gospels, certainly Book of Acts and the Pauline epistles. But we went to John 21 for that sermon day.

Dave: in the sermon you talked about Yeah, and challenge is a good word there. You talked about there's a lot of times in our lives personally, but certainly in the ministry, where we're very uncomfortable when we consider what needs to be done. And over the last year you've talked about a lot of high level things as it relates to churches growing and changing and becoming what God wants them to be. But he's challenging us and calling us to do something really unique. And in that in that Bible account from John the apostles had been fishing all night, came up empty, had nothing. Jesus shows up and offers a challenge. This untrained fisherman who is a carpenter by trade, tells the fishermen what they ought to do.

jim: Yeah, w which I thought in and of itself was kind of interesting. these guys were the experts. They they knew how to do this. They had done it before they left their nets and followed after him, according to Mark one. And and Jesus allows them to have some R and R. He's like, this is the third time he's been seen by his disciples post resurrection. He says, I'm gonna give you a couple of days off, which I think was intentional. I think he wanted them to go away, think through everything. because he knows he's getting ready to ascend. And if these guys aren't on the same page and they aren't following the orders that have been given them, then then this is this whole three years has been a waste of time. So you guys go, do something you like, and and it's interesting, they they did what they had been used to doing, fish. You know, and and I said this at Hillsborough. If you ask most preachers, you got a couple of days off, go do what you want, they either fish or play golf, right? So they go back to the boats, they go back to fishing. The problem is they had a terrible night. Terrible night, which I think was not accidental. I think the Lord allowed them to get out there and have a miserable time. And but he yells from the shore, hey guys, what are you doing? They're what do you think we're doing? Fishing. And and they don't know who he is. And he says, why don't you try throwing your nets on the other side? I have two theories. The nets were heavy. Maybe they hadn't actually thrown them on there. Maybe they kept thinking, keep them on this side. They'll they'll come. The fish will show up. At some point they'll show up. Or they had been throwing them on either side all night. Whatever the case, this unknown voice, this stranger on the shore yells to him, throw on the other side. And they did, and that's when they hauled in 153 fish. So the transition I made to today, the churches, the elders, the leaders at at at Hillsborough Family Camp, was look, is it possible the reason why your churches aren't growing and the reason why your ministries are flat, and the reason why your marriages are flat? reason why your leadership doesn't dream or think big anymore is because you've been fishing on the wrong side of the boat forever. Now, you know, Dave, we're not, we're not inspiring, encouraging anyone to rethink doctrine. You know, we don't have to touch doctrine because we haven't been given permission to. So we're not asking people to reevaluate their views on baptism, the roles of men and women in the church as laid out in the New Testament. Certainly the role of the Lord's Supper every first day week. We're not even That that we're not even calling that into question. But what's killing most of our churches is we just don't dream, we don't think, we don't we don't we don't conceive ideas that are different than ones we're doing now. And and the problem is what we're doing now is f it's failed and hasn't worked for years, but we just fail or refuse to fish on the other side. So my adma admonition that day was what would happen if your churches threw their nets on the other side? You know. Dave, I go to a great church. it's an old it's a church of Christ. It in here in Montgomery, Alabama, it's our home church when we're here. Jeanette and I go there. And Landmark Church of Christ is a great church. They did something years ago that was unheard of in the Deep South. They decided to offer both a cappella and instrumental music at two different services. And I said, buddy, how did you pull that off in the deep south? And his point was. First of all, we felt like we had permission to scripturally. Number two, we didn't think the scriptures opposed musical instruments, but and we did something crazy. We essentially threw the nets on the other side. And the church is booming. And they're literally an example to all the churches in the area. And that that's the kind of thinking that I'm encouraging our listeners and our preachers listening right now. Look, it's okay to sit down with your elders and go, guys, maybe we don't need a choir. Okay. Maybe we ought to introduce some new music. may maybe this mission that we've been supporting for thirty years has no validation to it anymore. Maybe it's time to move those dollars somewhere else. Maybe it's time to call that struggling church down the street that has five people and that have the same message we preach and invite them to be a part of our work and bring their assets over here and we can expand our facility and grow. That's called throwing the nets on the other side. That's a kind of initiative that I think our churches need to have as we move in to the future.

Dave: You know, you had listed listed some things of things that need to be evaluated in in a church, the ministries, traditions, mission support, the facility we have. as you you travel around extensively, and why is it that so many of us struggle in in changing the church in areas that can and need to be changed? we just seem to be complacent where we are doing what we've always done.

jim: I I think the hardest thing is change. Change takes faith. You you're gonna ruffle feathers, you're gonna upset people. And and for a lot of preachers, the idea, you know, someone once said, when the pain of staying the same becomes greater than change, then you'll change. You know, that that's why the drug addict doesn't get off drugs. Because going through the the the steps program, going through rehab, that's painful. But but he's like it's it's that's so much pain, I think I'll stay on the drugs. But when When the when staying on the drugs is becomes greater than all the work that change is gonna take, then he'll change. But a lot of churches, that's how they view life. The preacher says to himself, I'm making a good living. I these people aren't asking for anything different. They don't know to ask for anything different. If I upset the apple cart, I might lose my job. I'm making a great living, I'm mailing it in, no one's unhappy, you know. And so it's just It's it's a laissez-faire attitude. It's it's maintenance, maintenance, maintenance mode, and it's laziness. It's sheer laziness. And then you have some preachers who aren't lazy, they want to change, but the fear of of of standing before the congregation and going, We're gonna change the format to worship, we're gonna cancel some of these missions, we're gonna add some, we're gonna expand our building and start a school, or or we're gonna we're gonna add an another service. I mean, that's like frightening. But that idea of change is so unrealistic in their minds. They can't pull it off, which they can't themselves, but with God they can. So what they end up doing is is getting into full-blown maintenance mode. And so and so they don't change and they stay the same. And what ends up happening is systematically the church begins to die. The trajectory of growth fails, and now they're on a downward spin. And and it all has to do with failure to throw the nets on the other side.

Dave: Yeah, and the whole idea, Jesus told the apostles early on, I will make you fishers of men. And that that is really

jim: Right.

Dave: a challenge that that we've got to carry out as well, that we're to reach the community. But we have this level of maintenance mode in the church, I think in part out out of good intentioned desire to to appease people. I I I've met a lot of preachers. of course, as you have, and I think a lot of us have this tendency to be people pleasers. And so when we get kickback and push back, we wanna make sure that people have a level of contentment and and security in the traditions of the church. And there's value to that. but at the

jim: Yes.

Dave: same time, if that's gonna limit our growth and our outreach to the community in which we live, then then we're missing the mark big time.

jim: Absolutely. And Dave, that there's a verse that I cling to, and and it's a familiar verse trust in the Lord with all your heart and don't lean on your own understanding. Stop fishing the way you fished, and let the the the chairman of the board, the Lord, who taught us how to be fishermen, trust in him and let him teach us how to fish and grow the church. And then he'll he'll make our path straight. And and it's it wasn't until they put to sleep their concepts and their way of fishing. And listen to the voice on the shore, that's when they haul the fish in. And I am an absolute believer, and I've said this before to the point of nausea, we have to have a strong why, or our what makes no sense. So what were they doing? They were fishing. Why? I well, they they weren't catching anything. They didn't know why. They were just doing it. Jesus gave them a strong why. All right. And when they finally realized who the voice was, they're like, it all makes sense. And I truly believe, Dave. They referred back to that night and that day throughout their ministry. I guarantee you, during times of of elders meetings and and church planning meetings, one of the apostles said, you know what, we're doing it our way, it isn't working. We ought to do it the Lord's way or seek God's way a counsel. Because remember that night we were fishing, we didn't catch anything. And when we listened to the voice on the shore, aka Jesus, we caught something. Think about how that elevated their vision and their faith throughout their entire ministry. And I I I believe when elders meetings are are are saturated in prayer, we'll be more keen to the voice on the shore. I don't think we're hearing the voice on the shore because we're so busy doing it our way and we have no prayer. We have no there's no beseeching the throne of God. But man, when we get our elders praying and and our preachers praying, I think we'll hear that voice on the shore and we'll understand the direction the Lord's taking us and we'll catch the fish and we'll grow the church and we'll develop the ministry programs.

Dave: You know, when you think about that question why, Simon Sinek wrote a book fifteen, twenty years ago called Start with Why. And I think in the church we

jim: Yes.

Dave: have this great tendency to be very focused on the what. What are we doing this week? What do

jim: Yes.

Dave: we need to believe? What do we need to do morally? You know, right and wrong? What do we need to believe? The doctrine we have, and all of those things, there needs to be some level of of maturity in understanding those things. How how is it that we're missing the why in the church? Why aren't we digging a little bit deeper beyond the what we do to the why we do what we do?

jim: Yeah, that's a great question, Dave. And I think the answer is because I think we're afraid what we might discover. For instance, you know, what irrelevant program or idea that we're doing right now needs to be seriously evaluated? Well, if I evaluate it seriously, then we might have to cut some staff. We might have to fire some people because they're not doing their job. I might have we might have to go to the congregation and say we're gonna cut some ministries because they just aren't working here. They might work somewhere else. But they're absolutely irrelevant here. we might have to reposition the way in which we choose leaders. We we may have some elders that need to seriously consider retiring. And you know, because they've been on on the eldership for 50 years, but they've literally they're worn out, they're tired, they haven't shepherded the flock in 30 years. And these are, man, these are tough discussions, man, to look across the table and say to someone, I love you, but I don't know why you're here. I mean, I don't I don't know why you're serving in this capacity. I know what you do. I your title's very clear. I don't know why you do it. Man, when you start having these discussions, my goodness, you're gonna lose sleep and maybe lose your life. But they're essential. We're s they're absolutely essential. We have to start having them. And until we have these difficult disc discussions, we're never gonna evaluate ourselves objectively. And but I think that's important. And and you'd be surprised, we might you might evaluate a program and go, man, this is we gotta keep this. This is working. Great. You might evaluate and go, we need to tweak it. You might evaluate and say it needs to go. but only when we are are our and analyze ourselves objectively, when we ask those tough questions, but why do we do this? I know what we but why do we do this? Why why do we sing the same song every single Sunday? Why? W aga I keep going to this. Why do we suggest this missionary? Because this lady in the church, her nephew went over to Turkey 30 years ago and we just feel like we can't say no. That's our substantive reason for doing it. The why has to be elevated in the conversation. It's gonna be difficult, it's gonna be painful, but it's essential.

Dave: Jim, you mentioned in your sermon that John doesn't write the Sea of Galilee. He he he wrote the Sea of Tiberias. And just share that a little bit as it relates to Tiberias.

jim: So, you know, the gospel writers were so keen about their audience. They all knew who they were writing to. And so if Peter was writing this, he called the Sea of Galilee, he would have died on that, because he was writing to Jews and he was a Jew at heart, and so was John. But John had a specific role, and that was to write to the Gentiles, primarily in a Roman audience. And he knew if I'm writing to a Roman audience, they all refer to this as the Sea of Tiberias, not the Sea of Galilee. Now it's one of the same. And immediately my point was, look, preachers. Know your audience. You know, know your audience. And I had to, you know, I use this illustration when we started our outreach service at at at Kissimmee, made up of mostly homeless people and and and marginalized people and people living just paycheck to paycheck. You know, that was hardly the time to walk in and go on a hot summer night. Man, I'm glad I had my air conditioning working last night. I I would have roasted. And they're all looking at like, yeah, Jim, we all roast it because we live outside. You know, and I mean, I made a couple of errors like that when I when I preached that audience, and I realized, Jim, please know your audience, okay? Please avoid using certain language, certain phraseology that they may not understand. And so I I've always believed, preacher, preacher, preacher, know your audience. I had a friend of mine who grew up on a farm. He he he left his farm, sold his farm, went to Bible college, but he He lived in Indiana all his life. He went to a very affluent church in the city in Florida, to an affluent community in Florida. And the elders were just frustrated because all of his illustrations were farm illustrations. That's all he knew. He was a farmer from Indiana. But this the people in the city were like, man, he is his illustrations don't connect with us at all. And his ministry was so frustrated, not because his doctrine was off, he was spot on, but he was a fish out of water. He didn't know his audience, and his audience didn't know him. And eventually his ministry suffered and he went to a different church and s and and and and did very well. Know your audience, know your audience. Pick and choose your vocabulary very carefully. If you're in a Gen Z audience, you know, you just the gospel is still the same, but man, you might have to adjust your terminology. when Jeanette and I did college age ministry, I I had to think differently, had to think where they were, understand where they were. We had to adjust our Bible studies around their schedule, which was okay. It just so know your audience, and I think you'll go a lot further in your ministry if you just know who's sitting out there in front of you, their background. And so John just like, look, I'm gonna use phraseology that's gonna connect me to the audience, not create a barrier. So he calls it the city of Tiberius. That works.

Dave: what we've discovered is new people come into the into our congregation to worship that we s We're not trying to just accommodate the masses. We're not trying to be cultural,

jim: Right.

Dave: culturally relevant, but we're just trying to be sensitive to the people that we have. And so as our church became younger, we discovered the music we were singing wasn't connecting with the younger people. And while our older individuals were able to worship well, singing a lot of hymns, our younger audience wasn't able to. And so we had to address that. the special music that we had. We loved it, the people that visited. The church thought, boy, that was odd. You know, if somebody's singing a song from the 1960s to a cassette tape out of tune, you know, that becomes very challenging for people to sit through. We're very gracious to those we love. If you're coming from the outside, not necessarily

jim: Yes.

Dave: so. And so when we think about

jim: Absolutely.

Dave: terminology, the music that we have, the style of the building, that's one thing that maybe you see I like the term that John Mitchell uses. A lot of our church buildings are just tires. How does having a church building that maybe that's not updated or worn down or dirty, hopefully not, how does that affect outsiders when they come and visit?

jim: It and and and so what what does it say when they when people have carpet in their homes, they would never let a stain stay on there more than a week. What does it say when we paint our doors so they look really good? And then everybody has to dumb down when they go to the church and expect a filthy facility, filthy carpet, filthy hallways. What does that say to to to the Lord? What does it say to the people that that we would put more effort in our homes and our businesses than we do this property that's been dedicated to advancing the kingdom message. and I I I think it's Haggai, the book of Haggai, he he he the prophet goes, you know, I've noticed you guys are spending a lot of time rebuilding your homes, rebuilding your schools, rebuilding your city hall. That's great. But why is the temple still in disarray? And I think that's a message to the church. Look, I

Dave: T.

jim: know the building is the people. We are the building. But if it is a tool and it is a piece of advertisement, what are we really saying to the community when they drive by and the grass isn't cut? Or how about this? The sign is dilapidated. Or there's tape on the sign. I mean, I see this all the time. But I know we would never let our homes look like this. But we let the house of God look. the structure that the church meet we let it go to pot. So I had a saying at Kissimmee, you 'cause we were twenty five minutes from Disney World. And I did we had season passes. We took the kids there all the time. You know, evenings we'd go out there, couple rides, hit a restaurant, come home, because we could. And I used to say to Jeanette and the kids, I was like, look how immaculate Disney World is. It's immaculate. They got people greeting you as you leave with these giant Mickey ha hands. As you're walking out of the park at 1 a.m., they're like, have a nice evening. I'm like, who smiles at 1 a.m.? And the guy driving the tram is like joking. I'm like, just get us to the car. Anyway, I'm like, these people do all of this for a rat. Rat A rat. We go to our churches and

Dave: Ha ha ha.

jim: And we don't we don't have time to clean up the halls, we don't have time to clean up the carpet, the baptistry, you know, has enough you know stings and the water hasn't been changed in three months. And I I so I said this these are this days are over. And so we begin to dump literally thousands and thousands of dollars, hundreds in upgrading the facility because we a we had a school and b, we were we were getting people from Disney World executives to go to church here. And I was like, No. We're not going to dumb down just because we work for the Lord. And so, yeah, I I'm a firm believer in the the building is not the church. I get it. But if we've agreed that we're going to purchase property and we're going to use that building to glorify the Lord, then it better look as good as the homes we live in. At least. And so Dave, I I want to. give it a tip to tip my hat to you guys. You know, Millwood is a congregation that, you know, has really stepped it up in in not just in the programs and ministries, but the facilities. They complement your message. That that's really what I'm saying. I'm not asking it to supersede the message or eclipse the message, but can our facilities at least complement our message? You guys have done an outstanding job, by the way.

Dave: Well, what what we've learned is that if we're gonna fish, we've gotta have the right bait. so the building is just a is just bait. the

jim: Yes.

Dave: music. though we're worshiping God, it it's a little bit of bait. The relationships we're building, it's a little bit of bait to get people on the hook of the gospel that ultimately leads them to Christ and a transformed life so that they do care every day about being biblical. And just like Jesus

jim: Absolutely.

Dave: fed the masses one day and the next day they come back and say, give us more food to eat for our bellies, he said, Listen, I gave you that yesterday. Today you're getting food for your soul. And that's that's what we're trying

jim: Right. And he he

Dave: to do.

jim: and he immediately clarified, This is my purpose. That was a tool, that was some bait, so you understood I loved and I cared for you, but I need you to understand there's a greater meal that I can feed you. So Dave, let let's just make sure everybody understands what we are saying and what we're not. Number one, change for change sake, always against that. Please do not write us and say, Hey, you and Dave convinced me we got to change some things. Okay, fine. For what reason? The sake of change, terrible idea. We're not asking you to get rid of the pews. We're not asking you to kill the choir director. I'm not asking you to set fire to the choir robes. Not asking you to do any that. choruses, hymns, I don't care. We don't care. But the point is, evaluate everything you're doing through the lens of this. Why do we do it? If you don't have a c a an absolute sound reason for doing anything you're doing, ask yourself, then do we need to change it? Get rid of it? Or fix it. That's change and fix anything. So please don't just change for the sake of change. Number two, remember, you can do nothing wrong in your church and still get nothing right. Okay? They weren't going to hell because they didn't catch any fish. Worst thing that could happen is they row the boats in and you know, kick sand and and yell and scream at each other because someone didn't come with the idea first to throw the nets to their side. They did nothing wrong. Problem is they weren't doing anything right. Your church Can be doing nothing wrong, praise God for that. But you realize that you can be doing nothing right, and in my opinion, that's almost as dangerous. It's almost as dangerous. They got it right

Dave: That's good.

jim: when they threw the nets on the other side. That's where they started catching fish.

Dave: That's good. Yeah, that's good. And and with all of that said, Jim, we're not out to bait and switch either. We're not convincing people that we're gonna be one kind of church and then we become another, from from moment one, they're hearing the truth of the gospel. They're hearing New Testament Christianity, and they have the opportunity to respond biblically. And they're always going to

jim: Yes.

Dave: hear the message. The method you've heard this said before, the message doesn't change, but our methods do. And Paul wrote, I become all things to all men that I might win some. And that's all we're trying to do in the Lord's church, isn't it? Well well

jim: Absolutely. Absolutely. Amen.

Dave: Jim, you talked about how this experience of the apostles and with the resurrected Jesus became transformative for them not just then but for life and that for the rest of their lives they probably looked back on that moment and they had gained a great amount of trust for Jesus Christ, right? So how do we

jim: Yeah.

Dave: develop that kind of trust as preachers and elders and ministry leaders for Jesus as we go about seeking to do what's right to win the world around us.

jim: I think it's absolutely essential to make sure you we filter the voices that we're listening to. Okay. So the voice on the shore was Jesus. Now they didn't know that at first, but John's like, I think I recognize the tone. And Peter's like, I'm gonna go see. Wraps up his robe and 100 yards. He swims a hundred yards. And then they have breakfast with Jesus on the shore, and then they learn some real important ministry lessons. Preachers, be careful. whose voice you're listening to. I mean, I've known a lot of great preachers that have just, you know, they just can't get enough of this secularist or this pragmatic church growth guy who's willing to throw caution to the wind so he could build a big church. And and all of a sudden the voices are are are ba saturated in pragmatism or deconstructivism, or they're just simply unscriptural. And it's like preacher, who are you listening to, man? So it it I I look, I I know there's a lot of great material out there. I I mean, I wish I could say that every great sermon I preached was was I thought of everything on my own. We're all pulling from everybody. But just make sure that the people speaking into you are speaking truth and they make you a better, not just a better preacher, but a better person. And see, Dave, that's why I hang around you. Because you, you know, you're you're speaking to me. You're your quality. But the reality is so many preachers don't choose carefully. I mean, they they just are so interested in and even Paul warns us, you know, there'll become a day where people will will want to hear what their itching ears want to hear. So it's whatever makes me feel good. And that's the kind of material we're preaching, and that's the kind of stuff we're inhaling. Be careful. Be careful with the voice you're hearing. They caught fish because it was the voice of the master. Okay, and when Jesus is speaking into you, you can't fail. You cannot fail when you're taking your cues from Christ.

Dave: Welcome to the Thrive On Welcome to the Church On Mission Podcast. All right.

jim: It's been long time, right?

Dave: Here I'll start again.

jim: All right. Who are we? And what program is this?