annie: Hello, welcome back to Fiat in the Mess. I'm Annie Mueller, joined with Hayley Skinner. As always, we're so glad that you're here. On today's episode of Fiat on the Mess, we're going to be talking about some of the current trends around health, health maxing, optimal health, and longevity, and talk about the balance for moms between self-care and this cult of the body that we're surrounded by in the culture. So how do we take care of ourselves when our whole job description is caring for others? Before we get started, I want to ask you to please like and subscribe to the podcast, especially if you're on YouTube. That helps the algorithm, gets us out there. Please remember to share with anyone you think is interested and keep coming back to see what we're talking about on Fiat and the Mess. So Haley, how are you doing today?

Hailey Skinner: I'm doing great, thank you. So happy to be back.

annie: Good, good to see you. All right. So this topic came up because I've been noticing in my algorithm when it comes to social media and just the things I'm seeing on the internet that there's a big conversation in the culture right now around what some people call health maxing or optimal health. longevity is a big conversation. And it's not necessarily new. I mean, we've always had a culture obsessed with the body and obsessed With how we look and all of those things. But there is new science coming out and kind of new approaches that are more functionally medicine driven. And I thought this is an interesting topic for moms because we're bombarded with all of these tips and trades and People telling us what we should be doing, lots of people telling us what we should not be doing, you know, when it comes to food and sleep and exercise. For me, because I'm in a later season of life, there's all kinds of opinions about what you're supposed to do in perimenopause and menopause and what you're not supposed to do. And so, but it occurred to me that as always, the world's answer is pretty disordered and not exactly what we need to be focused on. And so what what do we need to focus on? ⁓ and I thought this could be a fun conversation because Haley and I are in such different seasons of life. And so I'm very curious to hear what she's bombarded with and what what the challenges she faces when it comes to taking care of herself. And so this idea of self-care can be very charged and it can feel like something else you're failing at, and that is not what we want for you. And so we want to just talk about it in a in a healthy constructive way and then just also encourage you that you sh you you do need to take care of yourself and you do need to prioritize yourself and not something to feel guilty about. ⁓ the first scripture that comes to mind ⁓ is from first Corinthians 6 19 through 20. Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit? Who is in you, whom you have received from God. You are not your own. You were bought at a price. Therefore, honor God with your bodies. So pretty straightforward that our bodies matter, that we are supposed to take care of them. St. Augustine has a very famous quote: "Take care of your body as if you're going to live forever. care of your soul as if you're going to die tomorrow." So we cannot separate these two things: that we were given both, and we have to take stewardship of both. So I'm sure we're all familiar with that verse. ⁓ but I thought we're sorry. We don't wanna discuss the merits of the different trends or approaches to health. That's not what we're gonna discuss today. But I thought it would be good to just ask what the Catholic response is supposed to be to all these trends and then again, think of how it affects us particularly as mothers. So Haley, I would love to hear your perspective on what it's like in your season of life. I know you're not online a lot, which I love and respect about you, ⁓ and that you have a phone that doesn't do much ⁓ that you work really hard to ⁓ stay off the internet and out of the noise. And so ⁓ I'm sure we have a lot of listeners who who s are trying to live similarly. I do think there's a trend moving us away from being online so much, thankfully. I think there are pockets of communities rising up saying we don't need all this technology. So, ⁓ obviously we hope you still have podcasts in your life because we we want you to listen to us. But ⁓ Haley, how this idea of health maxing, optimal health, this kind of obsession with longevity in particular, how is that coming through in your world?

Hailey Skinner: Yeah. ⁓ yeah, like you said, I'm I'm not really on social media much anymore. I certainly was in the past. but I certainly still encounter these trends through advertisements, through conversations with friends. and I just have a personal strong drive to be healthy, to take care of myself, to present myself beautifully, take care of my family. ⁓ and these trends definitely feed and can distort those good efforts. ⁓ And so a couple of months ago I still had Instagram, I was using social media, and for what I thought was really good purposes and also just Pinterest, you know, I would follow these really wholesome accounts and watch reels on making sourdough and decorating the house and raising chickens and raising children. So all of these accounts and then personal friends and family. So I would open up Instagram and ⁓ kind of be overwhelmed by how beautiful other people's lives looked and all of their hobbies and skills and fitness trends. and really just found myself overwhelmed and so quickly saddened by the fact that my life doesn't look like that or I'm not doing all of those things, so I must be failing. and so I I realized I I kind of need to distance myself from from social media and I just decided for me it was it was good to delete it and just c kind of give myself complete distance. ⁓ because instead of, you know, turning off Instagram and then going and doing the thing that I was encouraged by, I had just wasted thirty minutes, you know, watching other people doing the things I wanted to be doing with my life. ⁓ and I had missed out on being present to my child while I was nursing her or while my son was playing and I was just scrolling. ⁓

annie: Right.

Hailey Skinner: So at this point I'm really grateful to not be on social media, although I do think people can can use it for really good things. So but just in my personal life, I'm really blessed to be in friend groups that are very wholesome where we're encouraging one another to live virtuously, to be better, to be healthy, ⁓ s trying not to be perfectionistic. ⁓ so my peer group tends to be other other young moms in my same season. ⁓ so conversations that I'm having are often centered on things like pregnancy, labor and delivery, food, ⁓ the postpartum season, breastfeeding or formula feeding, ⁓ sleep, toddler behaviors, things like that. Thing you know, conversations that come up naturally with having young kids and being in the season of of pregnancy and postpartum.

annie: Yeah.

Hailey Skinner: But even in this positive peer group setting that I'm in, there are so many opportunities for comparison, for jealousy, discontentment. for example, one conversation that came up for me recently was some mother's ability to just lose the baby fat so quickly, and other moms who just, you know, find it impossible to lose any baby fat, you know, a year or two after having a baby. ⁓ and So these these kinds of conversations come up all the time and just just conversations surrounding health and how to take care of ourselves. ⁓ I'm I'm really blessed to be encouraged by the community of mothers I'm surrounded by, all striving to take good care of our families. ⁓ I'm part of a playgroup that meets meets weekly meets weekly at a park and part of ⁓ groups my church ⁓ and group chats. So these are all wholesome opportunities to be encouraged on our health journey. ⁓ but I think the thing that I fall into the most. not from social media but from these from these relationships, ⁓ are are the temptations the devil gives me to believe that I'm just not healthy enough or just not skinny enough because ⁓ look at this friend who just had a baby and already looks so good or wow she's making sourdough and fermenting her own pickles and she has a huge garden and she's raising chickens and also her kids are sleeping through the night. So I must be failing.

annie: Right. Yeah, this is an interesting point because I think it actually really drives home why we're even seeing the trend is that we are so driven by comparison and and by you know looking at well if someone else can do it then I can do it too. And there part of that is good. Part of that is like we can we can encourage one another to to work hard to to strive. You know, life is about being uncomfortable. We sh and that's a good thing. Because on the other end of the spectrum, which is where this whole health maxing trend has come from, like the response, the health maxing trend is a response to how unhealthy our country is. Like there is a health crisis in America. And we see it with children for sure, but definitely with adults of like there is an obesity crisis. There is ⁓ an isolation and a loneliness crisis. These are and these are problems The world is trying to solve. Now, some of them have Christ, and so they're offering good solutions, like good health solutions along with good theology. But a lot of it has turned into what St. John Paul II called the cult of the body, where we we realize, wow, look at what the human body is capable of, which is really phenomenal. I know, like we just had ⁓ Olympics in the winter, right? And one of the things I love, I love watching the Olympus with my kids. And just commenting on like the wonder of creation. Look what God made the human body capable of. It's amazing. And it says so much about what we are capable of when it comes to being disciplined and it comes to being committed to something. You know, it's phenomenal what the human body can do. And so ⁓ it makes sense that without The right understanding. Without the right theology, you could start worshiping the body, which is something that's happened since the beginning of time. So I do think that ⁓ that comparison, compulsion is part of what lends to this obsession with with the human body and and with health. But it's also if we look at like what is at the heart of it, it's it there's also a fear of death. There's a fear of aging. ⁓ there's a desire for control. And so again, when we separate these things from what God is calling us to do and how he's calling us to see our physical bodies, then it can get dangerous and it can get to the point where we're so obsessed that it consumes us. And so one of the things I'm seeing when I see these things online is like to the point where people are foregoing really normal communal things, like in the name of health or Being afraid of the sun, being afraid of wine, being afraid of carbs, you know, there's just all of this. No, no. If I can optimize my health in this way, then I will be succeeding. This this affects women in a very particular way because if we buy into the heresy that the body is everything, then our worth and our identity are tied up in the capabilities of our bodies and what they look like and how we're presenting that to the world. So If we only focus on the body, we're absolutely losing something. But if we say the body doesn't matter, we're also losing something. And so as a mom, it can be very easy to only prioritize the health and wellness of our children, our husbands, our families, and to think that our health is not as important or we just don't have time for it. And that's equally problematic. So we don't want to buy into the craze of being completely obsessed with all the metrics and everything our body's doing and and losing the relational aspect of our life or losing the real focus on self gift that we that we are to give to our families. Because as a mother, we really are called to a life of self-gift. So what does self-care look like then? I think is is the question, the thing we want to talk about. Because there are many resources out there and some of them are really wonderful. And but then basically how do we strike the balance between caring for ourselves and And being so obsessed with our our health and our bodies that we ignore everything else. You know, how do we find that that balance? So, Haley, what when I say self-care, particularly as a young mom, because I know when I was young and I would hear it, I'd be like, don't tell me I'm supposed to take care of myself. It's something else I'm failing at. Like it would stress me out a lot. ⁓ so what are you, what is your like internal response when you when you think about it?

Hailey Skinner: Yeah. It used to make me cringe, that word, because like you're saying similarly, like how in the world am I supposed to to spend hours a day by myself, to do all the things that I wanna do for myself and but it's so important to take care of yourself. Self care is so important when we understand it and when we understand it and do it rightly, through I think through the lens of stewardship. ⁓ because like you're saying,

annie: Right.

Hailey Skinner: It's the it's all about self-gift. God has given us the gift of life, our bodies and souls. He's entrusted great responsibilities to us. ⁓ and if we're able to if we are to be able to serve him with our bodies, then we need to take good care of them. And really in order to do the excellent work he's called us to. So first we need to see ourselves as stewards of this great and undeserved gift. recently I was really struggling to take good care of myself and ⁓ Life was just so busy as it as it is, the demands on my time, feeling so heavy. was struggling to find time each week to exercise and shower and have any quiet prayer time, fold the laundry, sometimes even just, you know, brushing my teeth was just was just the most insurmountable task. And so after brainstorming a little bit with my husband, we came up with this new plan that has really changed my life. And what I've been doing is just waking up an hour earlier. An hour before anyone else wakes up, which does require a certain sacrifice of sleep. ⁓ but I found that it's been so worth it. And in this season of my life it's really working. so I get to work out first thing in the morning, I take a shower, get ready for the day quietly, slowly. ⁓ then by the time my kids wake up, I have my coffee and I'm in my chair having prayer time. And I get to greet them. They wake up and mom's already awake and that has kind of already changed the way that they wake up. I've noticed they're a little bit more calm and it's a neat kind of thing. Like when I and my husband are awake before anyone else, it seems to set the tone for them. but yeah, this has radically changed the way that I approach the day. Kind of grateful for some quiet time. I love exercising and so I had been trying to squeeze in and exercise, you know. ⁓ whenever I could, but but now I can count on it. and then I get some time to make myself ready for the day. ⁓ we made this change I was I was kind of scared to ask for any time to myself every day, not wanting to be selfish. But what I've learned and now experienced is that when I have a full cup, ⁓ I I have to give. ⁓ And also ⁓ ⁓ whenever my morning routine doesn't work out as I had hoped to, say my kids wake up early or wake up sick or I miss my alarm or for whatever reason don't get to do those things that I that I would like to in the morning, I at least now have a new attitude about self-care and I'm more creative about finding ways to to squeeze in a a workout or you know, go walking or running with the kids during the day. Or I just I'm prioritizing these things a little bit more. So that even if they don't work out when I had hoped they would, I'm creatively trying to find solutions ⁓ throughout the day. and I've also ⁓ that I really want my kids to see me prioritizing self-care and to understand it rightly for themselves, knowing how to exercise, how to eat well, when to take breaks and w and when to to take rest. all again because because we're stewards of God's gifts, I want them to to learn from my example ⁓ how to care of themselves too.

annie: Yeah, I think that's so important. You know, actually I I years well, years ago my baby went to kindergarten and I had an identity crisis, ⁓ ⁓ started working for a physician who worked in health and the short verson is I became a certified health coach. And one of the things in my studies that I found very inspiring was that Statistically they say for a child a healthy child has generally has a healthy parent, and that people who grow up in homes where health has been ⁓ the there's been an example of good health are like ninety percent more likely to live healthy as adults. So in other words, which you know, I guess that's not ⁓ that's probably not shattering to anyone, but If we in other words, we are the example and children will grow into healthy adults if they have a template for what that looks like. And so My husband and I, we are actually just talking about this because it's summer and I have some children who don't care to move their bodies. And we're trying to incorporate this as just this is part of what you do in a day. And I do think it's important to enjoy it. You know, exercise is not supposed to be punishment. Haley, when you said you love to exercise, I do too. So so that it's ⁓ I have ⁓ I have be moderate. I'll exercise three hours a day. Like just that I would rather do that really than almost anything else. So I have to like curtail and like prioritize and let's I can't spend my whole day at the gym, even though I'd love to. ⁓ but for a lot of people, it is like an unpleasant association, or it it's just not something you enjoy. And ⁓ one thing I used to tell clients was find something that you enjoyed doing as a kid and start doing that. So maybe it was riding a bike, or maybe it was dancing. Dancing or maybe it was rollerblading or you know, find an activity. ⁓ pickleball is one of those things is huge and fun and a lot of people who don't think of themselves of as athletes are finding that they enjoy it and it really is just about movement. and And so this idea of stewardship is so important because it brings us back to that scripture that recognizing our bodies are a gift. They they are a gift. And also understanding that we are our body. We are not supposed to separate ourselves from it or consider that, ⁓ well, in heaven it won't matter. You know, no, the Lord has called us to be stewards of of this body and soul together. And so, you know, when I think back to my seasons of early motherhood I I had always been an athlete in high school and exercise was super important to me. And somewhere along the line, I quit, I quit doing it. And I had a spiritual director after, I think it was after my third son was born. So we had four kids, and you know, I just yeah, I was stressed out and feeling really overwhelmed all the time. And she just started asking me, like, tell me about what you were like before you had kids. And exercise was this huge part of my life like all through high school and then early adulthood before I had children. And then she asked, Well, why don't you exercise anymore? And I'm like, well who has the time? You know, I don't have any time. And she basically was like, you're denying this huge part of yourself. Like this is kind of this is part of something you've always done. But also you know enough to know that exercise gives you more energy and gives you better sleep. Like there's all these other reasons for the good of your children. That you should be prioritizing this thing. And I had to kind of reshift because I think the temptation is to become a martyr in a lot of ways of like, well, I don't have time. I have to take care of everybody else. And the devil loves when we feel sorry for ourselves, loves when we think, you know, ⁓ I can't be this good version of myself because I have to do X, Y, and Z. And so it's so important to. To not think of it as selfishness. There is such there's a huge distinction between selfishness and self-care. And in the same way, like you were saying, Haley, for your kids, you know, we want our kids to understand the human body was made to move. The human body was made to be fueled by good food and vitamins and minerals. And you know, you can't live on goldfish. And we love our kids enough to not let them do that. And yet sometimes, as moms, we'll live on scraps. Off their plates instead of prioritizing a healthy meal for ourselves. Now, I am not at all acting like this is super easy. It's not. It takes, like what you were saying, Haley, it takes some sacrifice of sleep or some thinking ahead and prepping and you know, ⁓ but obviously it it pays off. So Back to this idea, these trends, like what were all the things we're bombarded with. One of the things that's so popular right now is a conversation around sleep and how important sleep is. And you know, there's like a million gadgets. You can my watch will tell me if I got a good night's sleep. And I was listening to one, you know, podcaster who was like you know, why do you need a watch telling you you slept? Like you either wake up and feel rested or you don't. And he was like, people wake up and feel rested and then they look at their app and they're like, ⁓ I didn't get a good night's sleep. I'm so tired. You know, there is a certain amount of obsession with like gadgets and and data, you know, what the data is telling us. And let's we can all remember like we're just human persons and I know what it feels like to have a good night's sleep and I know what it feels like not to. So but when I was doing my health coach training, there was like a whole week we spent on sleep and how sleep is so important for metabolic health, for mental health, for all the things. And I remember thinking, well, no wonder moms. Feel crazy all the time and are exhausted and can't ever lose weight because sleep is this huge part of optimal health. I mean it it truly is. We know we need it. And yet, God designed babies to wake up every two hours at the beginning, you know, and God is not unaware of how hard it is for a toddler to sleep through the night. So it sort of again begs the question: what does the Lord want for us? us in seasons where the necessary ingredients for good health are just not available to us. You know, where we don't have the time and resources to do everything we should be doing. And Thank goodness we have another perspective. We have the eternal perspective, we have the perspective of self-gift, and we know that these are just seasons and they're not forever. And yet, what can we do, you know, during those seasons where I mean, I basically didn't sleep for almost 20 years, like through the night or consistently, you know? And that's where you are now, Haley. And that's where my daughter is, you know, and we we're Just talking about this yesterday actually, because she's pregnant and she's not sleeping well, and the baby just he was fine and now he doesn't want to sleep through the night. And so, ⁓ you know, how do we how do we bring that to the Lord, offer to the Lord for something good, but also still prioritize rest and ways to de stress.

Hailey Skinner: Yeah. Sleep is absolutely a hot commodity in my house right now. and something I will never take for granted. ⁓ it's not a given every night. and that's okay. I have through our and I'm sure every mother's experience, have some ⁓ some new ways thinking about it. just a few months ago we were in a season of extreme ⁓

annie: Right.

Hailey Skinner: fatigue, sleepless nights, my daughter had ongoing gassiness and we couldn't figure out what the culprit was. She would wake up multiple times throughout the night for a few months in a row. It was it was the hardest deprivation we have experienced so far, even like worse than postpartum. we started cutting out foods, ⁓ and rolled out oats, super random, but we rolled it out from her diet and she has been sleeping soundly ever since. ⁓ So this ⁓ of her makes me think two things. First, that God truly did make our bodies to need sleep. It's just so good. We need to rest and recover, They're good, necessary things. ⁓ so we should absolutely getting good sleep and helping our children to take rest and take good naps, get to bed on time in order for them to thrive during the next day. But second, when we don't get good sleep, we're still called to rise the next day and live out the duties of our no vocation, striving as best as we can to serve with a cheerful heart. so It's so hard. It is so hard we're sleep deprived, but but call still remains all the more, right? To unite that suffering to the cross, to love and serve God and our families, no matter how good of a night's sleep we've got, no matter how tired we are. To remember and keep being encouraged by those opportunities, those nightly wakings being opportunities for surrender and for prayer and for ⁓ and kind of an intimacy ⁓ with the Lord. ⁓ this ⁓ a note, this I am not saying that I think God wants us to be measurable. ⁓ in fact, I know that He wants us to be well and I encourage good sleep. ⁓

annie: Right.

Hailey Skinner: My hope for all of us, for all of you, especially mothers who need it most, is to get really good sleep. And I am working really hard to figure out how to get my little ones to sleep well. so if you're a fellow mom with young kids, I understand the journey that we're on and hope you get good sleep soon. But at the same time, just want to encourage you that I I I do think it's so important to just embrace that fatigue and sleepless nights as kind of part of the package and as opportunities just to offer it all back.

annie: Yeah. Right. Right. And I can say it is seasonal. ⁓ sorry. It is seasonal. Yeah. Like it it real and it doesn't feel like it will. When you're in it, you really think, Well, I'm never gonna sleep again. Like it yeah, and I've been sleeping through the night for a decade now, more than that. So really it's it you do get it back.

Hailey Skinner: So I guess back to your question at the beginning. Absolutely. Remember, like, take heart, it will come to an end. Absolutely. just to go back to your question. I loved the question you asked earlier, and just wanted to dwell on that a little bit. Is there more to life than optimal health? If so, what is it? ⁓ I think that ⁓ we talk about how is a means to an end, ⁓ not the end in itself. And we should really be to find virtue, find moderation, finding balance. ⁓ in our pursuits of optimal health. ⁓ and as someone who really tries to prioritize health for myself and my family, ⁓ I've had quite a journey with with food, ⁓ from being overweight to losing a lot of weight. I've done all sorts of diets. I've exercised for my whole life doing cross country and weightlifting. And I'm now really interested in like getting the toxins out of our house and out of our bodies and at this point more interested in a well-balanced diet and trying to do some some fun projects in my home of fermenting my own pickles and you know focused on the importance of gut health so I've dabbled in kind of all the areas of of ⁓ health trying to to provide for my family a truly healthy lifestyle. But list of things to focus on just goes on and on and on. And it can be really overwhelming if we're trying to be be perfect or be excellent at all of these things or to focus on all of the all of the ways to be healthy. so we I go through things of prioritizing one th thing more than the rest, like sleep, for example, in that previous season a few months ago. Like that was what we were focused on. and at this point, trying to figure out how my husband and I can both get some good exercise throughout the week.

annie: Sure.

Hailey Skinner: but I just think it is it's so easy to make optimal health a god and to ⁓ prioritize it over the health of our soul. so it's just important to keep our priorities in check and to truly ask ourselves why am I pursuing this goal? and I wanna share a quick story about my mom. She I think is a beautiful example of like to kind of answer this question. ⁓ is ⁓ beautiful, very young and active, such an active and generous grandmother to my kids. And one time when I asked her why she or how she was enjoying the new gym that she joined, ⁓ in her response she told me that she's going to the gym so that she can be the grandma that plays on the ground with her grandkids. And she is. ⁓ boy, does she love to play on the ground with my kids, jump on the trampoline, ⁓ take them on walks and on runs and

annie: Ha ha ha.

Hailey Skinner: this is just one example that is just so such a gift to me that my mom is prioritizing herself for for the sake of loving and serving her grandkids and being around for as long as she can be ⁓ to be active in their lives. And so this is one example of many of like why do we cook healthy food? Why do we try to get good sleep? It's so that we can wake up the next day to serve and to love God and to be active in our families' lives.

annie: Right. Yeah, a hundred percent. I completely relate to what your mom said. That I I like I said, I've I've loved exercise my whole life and and I've also been on every diet in the world and you know, it's I've got all my own issues, but there is a shift that takes place for sure as we age. At least it has for me, and I think like what your mom is saying is that I I want to stay healthy to see my grandchildren grow up. And I also I want to be able to be on the floor with them, to get up and down, to lift up the very fat baby and be fine. You know, this my whole perspective on health has shifted tremendously from how I look to what my body is capable of doing and and that I want to be around a long time.

Hailey Skinner: Mm-hmm.

annie: to take care of these people to serve. I want to be able to be useful to my kids for their kids and be the grandma who can have them all over and you know have the stamina to keep up with however many overnight and all of those things. And so it I think that is the exact right perspective in that we we pour in to ourselves, we take care of ourselves so that we can continue to pour out and that that's what Christ is asking of us. That's that stewardship piece. and it and it does kind of segue into understanding that we our our identity and our value do not come from what we look like or what our bodies can do even. ⁓ You know, we are loved and valuable To the father, no matter what our bodies look like, and really no matter how we're prioritizing our health. It nothing changes the way the father so deeply loves and desires us. And that's such an important thing to understand. But but we do want to honor the gift that He's given us. And so taking care of that gift is honoring the giver. That is a really important. understanding. So one other piece of this whole ⁓ movement, optimal health and health maxing, that that I've thought of lately, particularly when I've heard a couple of people talk about all the things they don't do anymore, you know. like Alcohol has a really bad rap right now. Everybody's talking about how it's poison all the time. And, you know, of course there's the carbs and all the things. But I do think we've really lost... I mean, we know this just by looking around. Like the the I Community a lost art. a lost People do not understand or appreciate the value of community and the value of communal eating and drinking. And You know, This is one of the things that for our home, I've always wanted it to be a home where everyone was welcome, where a lot of hosting is happening, where you know you can always eat if you're at my house. ⁓ We eat pretty healthfully. I'm very, very careful about what I eat. But when it comes to a celebration, it's like there are ways to feast, and there are foods and drinks involved in that that are just good and the Lord gave us to enjoy. And One of the things I love so much about the Church that we have seasons of feasting and fasting. And so ⁓ of the things we've really lost as a culture are those ⁓ because in one regard, we have like constant feasting. You know, like ⁓ can get anything you want at any time, and you can door-dash something at midnight. And, you know, we don't have any sense of moderation as a culture. But the Other side of that, like as the pendulum swings over, you realize people can be so restrictive that we're we're also losing something there. And so it's not gluttony, and but it's not all restriction. And if we just look to the Church... they give us the rhythm. The Church gives us a rhythm of feasting and fasting. And That's one of the reasons I love like Easter, we celebrate Easter for fifty days. There is a sense in which the Lord has risen and He is among us and we are waiting on the Holy Spirit and there are things to celebrate. And in the same way, during Advent and during Lent, it's a time of preparation. It's a time of of abstinence from things. And then how much more do we enjoy when it's time to feast again? And so one of the beautiful things that we can do as moms In our home is establish that rhythm and and make sure our kids understand that we don't feast all the time, but we don't fast all the time either. And so there's ⁓ you know, there is a time for bread and wine. And they're goods, they're goods that the Lord gave us. ⁓ Haley, we were talking about this, and I love what you said about

Hailey Skinner: Mm-hmm.

annie: about that. So yeah, tell us about that.

Hailey Skinner: Yeah, I have so many thoughts on bread and wine. I think especially from my experience living abroad and experiencing how other cultures have bread on the table and have wine with most meals. but my first thought is why on earth would God give himself to us in the forms of bread and wine if both of them are poisonous? Right? Just think on that for just a minute. He wouldn't. He would give himself to us

annie: Yes. Right. Right. Amen. Yeah. Right. Amen.

Hailey Skinner: through like in the form of goods, right? If like bread and wine are so are such goods, such gifts to us to enjoy. so I love what you're saying about liturgical living, feasting and fasting, there being periods for both and we're called to to both. and it's not just good for us to do one at the time, just indulging or just restricting. It's so important to strive for for virtue and all things, moderation. and also super important, I think, to have self-knowledge. to know ⁓ know when to ask for help, to know when you've had enough to eat or drink, because any more will make you groggy or crabby in the morning and less cheerful to your family or less r ready to go to work. ⁓ to know when you need to take rest or to try something new because what you're doing right now isn't working. and just to remember that like we've said before, like things life is seasonal. so maybe something's working now and it it won't you know it's it's not the best thing for you, so you can try something new. ⁓ but just having that self-knowledge, I think that relates back to to feasting and fasting. Like I even at these great feasts, it's so good to to enjoy the goods of the earth, but to to have good self-knowledge, to not overindulge, but to truly delight in and enjoy the goods. ⁓ and ⁓ to just one final note. I really dislike the phrase guilty pleasures. here's why. Because ⁓ just the word guilty and yeah, those two words together. I just really don't like it. Because if you're doing something and you're truly guilty for it, like if you're doing something sinful then stop doing that and go to confession, right? If we're doing something sinful, we ought not to be doing that. ⁓ if you're talking about having an occasional chocolate bar ⁓ even a bite of chocolate every day, which this girl has her dark chocolate in the cabinet, ⁓ then eat the chocolate and bring me some too. Like I just am thinking of thinking of the Psalms and how many times they say in different ways that the earth is full of the goodness of the Lord. And we are just we're invited to partake in the fruits of the earth and to delight in creation, to savor the beauty and to see this act of taking care of ourselves and of our family as part of that.

annie: Yeah.

Hailey Skinner: a a part in that beautiful creation. So I would say, I'm not saying indulge all of your desires, right? But to enjoy and to know that you are a gift that God has created this earth for us to enjoy. ⁓ and He truly wants us to be well and to take take our health and ourselves seriously, stewards of of his creation. So Annie, as we wrap up, I I thought it could be kind of fun just to share some of the practical ways that we practice self-care for ourselves. ⁓ would you share with us some of the some of the things you prioritize most when it comes to health and fitness, food, hygiene? What are your thoughts?

annie: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Again, I feel like because I'm in such a different season of life, it really is I say this to my daughter all the time, like, well, yeah, I have so much more time. I have so much more bandwidth to care for myself. And I do think part of this season of life is about that. It's about reclaiming some of that time and ability to care for yourself. Because when in those early years, it's very limited amount of time that you can prioritize those things. And it's very important to do. All that to say is I think I do more of it now. I know I do more of it now than I did, you know, 20 years ago. That being said, I I do think, you know, sleep is a really important thing. Just in the sense of like I used to I was so happy my kids were in bed that I would not want to go to sleep because you're just so happy that it's quiet, you know. And so I would stay up way too late reading a book or watching TV or talk whatever, because it was like, no, if I go to sleep, they're just gonna wake up again. So just want a little bit more time, you know. So just like finding a good schedule for yourself, recognizing I love what you're doing about like getting up earlier. That was always really hard for me, but it's it's such a beautiful way to do it. ⁓ you know, one thing that comes to mind, and this has been newer for me, is prioritizing the Eucharist if you can during the week. That that has been a real game changer for me lately of just recognizing that if I get that nourishment in a few times a week, that it shifts my whole perspective and ability to like deal with the other stressors of my life. And I say that I don't want you know, you moms who have little kids and can't bring ⁓ to maths by yourself, don't like, Well, thanks a lot, Annie. That's something I can't do. Because I I never could figure it out when I was by myself and my kids were little. I know we talked about this a couple of weeks ago, Haley. Like, it's just not the season, you know, and and it really does depend on your kids. Like, you you know, some kids do great and some don't. So, ⁓ But I I do think that ⁓ movement is huge and you know, you can get your kids to do it with you. And so that was one of those things when my kids were little that I just started like we would go on a walk together or we would turn on music and just dance for like 30 minutes because they love it and then I'm moving and I would see a a boost in my mood and you know, for multiple reasons. Music is God gave us music. Mil music is a huge gift. So I think just taking the time for the the little things that those things those things add up. So movement is a huge one for me. And then yeah, I guess the sleep piece. But also finding time to and we're gonna talk about this I think in some upcoming episodes about ⁓ kind of a rule of life or a a a system of order for your home and and a schedule. And I'm not not to freak out the people who are like, don't tell me I need a schedule, but just that ⁓ Finding time to be alone and to be with friends. So, you know, finding a way with your husband or with any support system you have to like get out of the house, to get away from your kids, that was a big game changer for me. I d I joined a book club twenty years ago and that has been this lifeline for me the whole twenty years because I knew at least once a month I would get out of the house, have a glass of wine and be with my friends. And I feel like that is one of the most crucial forms of self care is to give yourself adult time with other women. Haley, what are some of the the things that that you've found crucial beyond just the things you've told us already about like getting up early or there any other things you think have made a big difference?

Hailey Skinner: Yeah. one thing I enjoy doing is is putting on makeup and I kind of threw that threw that out the window a few years ago, just maybe when I started having kids, ⁓ not finding the time for it. And so I bought myself some new makeup recently and have enjoyed just getting ready for the day kind of as part of the ritual of the morning. And it's been a game changer just in terms of thinking about myself as a professional. As a stay-at-home mom, I don't I don't think we often think of ourselves that way. We're not going to a corporate office. And ⁓ sometimes the only people who see me that day are my husband and my kids. But ⁓ ⁓ just realized that I want to see more as a professional in when it comes to the things that I'm doing. They're mundane, they're sometimes gross tasks, you know, but ⁓ I like to put on nice clothes, ⁓

annie: That is such a good point.

Hailey Skinner: put on a little bit of makeup, and put my hair up, and put on some earrings. But just just that ritual of getting myself ready for the day makes me feel like I'm I'm ready to get to my important work. ⁓ sometimes it doesn't happen. Sometimes I'm wearing my pajamas and the day starts, you know. But if I can can carve out five minutes to just put on my uniform, put on my nice clothes and and a little bit of makeup, then I I notice a change, like a lift in my mood and a kind of a readiness to greet the day with a sense of professionalism. So that's kind of my one one thing I've been excited about lately.

annie: I like that a lot. Yeah. ⁓ Good. Well, it's been I really enjoyed the conversation. I I hope y'all listening have found some solace in it and knowing that, you know, it's okay to block out the noise of the world and just Ask the Holy Spirit to help you steward this beautiful gift of a body. And I know we I mean, somehow we haven't mentioned it, but our bodies really are so amazing. Our bodies are the reason we have our children. So ⁓ of course, the devil would like to make us think that they're not good enough or we're messing up or something. Like it sometimes it's just a matter of stopping in wonder and awe of what our bodies have done. And so when I when I hear the negative voice. That don't like my, you know, belly. I think, wait a minute. All of these beautiful people in my home have lived here, and that's why it looks like this. And it's okay. You know, it's a good. So maybe we just ⁓ rejoice in gratitude for what our bodies can do and ask the Lord to help us continue to be good stewards of that gift.

Hailey Skinner: Mm.

annie: So we're so glad that you joined us today. We look forward to seeing y'all next time. And in the meantime, keep giving God your fiat in the mess. Thanks, everybody.