Annie Muller: back to another episode of Fiat in the Mess. I'm Annie Muller and I'm here with Hayley. How are you, Hayley?

Hailey Skinner: I'm doing very well, thank you. It's good to be with you again.

Annie Muller: Good, good. You too. Today we're going to talk about this Holy Week. How do we enter into Holy Week? How can we ⁓ consider what this week was like for our Blessed Mother? How is the Lord inviting us into his suffering in this week? We recognize that as a mom, it can be very challenging to ⁓ find the time and the space to be contemplative in this week and We're here to say you don't have to that the Lord is gonna meet you right where you're at. So ⁓ The main thing we want to kind of consider is that we just last week we're celebrating the Annunciation Mary's pregnancy this amazing miraculous thing has happened Gabriel's come to her and told her this life-changing news And then yet here we are one week later. It's by Wednesday And we're entering into the Triduum tomorrow. And how do we exist in those two places at the same time? It's one of the beautiful mysteries of the church that the church invites us to enter into the passion while also keeping the resurrection in front of mind that Mary can be pregnant and journeying through that at the same time she's journeying through the passion. So. ⁓ As mothers, we are not strangers to suffering and we see many parallels between the sufferings of Christ and this vocation. This is something at Mighty's Recall we talk about all the time that we talk about the vocation of motherhood is Christ-like. So what does that mean? We're gonna talk about that. So Haley is going to start us off with a really beautiful reflection. The Holy Spirit has been really faithful to speak to her about this episode. I also want to say Haley's not feeling great and there have been like 500 obstacles to recording this episode. So we're just trusting that the Lord has something to say and it's not because of who we are. And so we really believe that that the Lord has something beautiful to say to you all today because it's been really hard to get here. And as fellow moms, I'm sure you can all appreciate the many potential obstacles. with sick kids and not feeling herself, the Holy Spirit is still speaking to Haley in this moment. So let's hear what he's had to say to you about this, Haley.

Hailey Skinner: Thank you, Annie. I'm so excited. ⁓ My son has been telling me that I sound like a dinosaur, so bear with me ⁓ if I sound like a dinosaur. He's two and he also has a cough. So, ⁓ but yes, I'm so excited. This, I'm going to read a passage from the Gospel of John and offer a reflection on it to help us to dive in to this discussion of Holy Week while continuing to journey with Mary and her Fiat.

Annie Muller: Ha!

Hailey Skinner: So this passage is toward the very end of the Last Supper on Holy Thursday. Christ is speaking to the disciples. He's been speaking to them in figures of speech, preparing them for what's to come very soon, but they clearly do not understand yet. He uses this image of a woman in labor relating her suffering to the coming suffering of the disciples. And these are basically Christ's parting words to the disciples right before he's arrested and they scatter. So here it is, this is from John chapter 16 verses 20 to 24. Jesus knew that they wanted to ask him, so he said to them, are you discussing with one another what I said? A little while and you will not see me, and again a little while and you will see me? Amen, amen, say to you. You will weep and mourn while the world rejoices. You will grieve, but your grief will become joy. When a woman is in labor, she is in anguish because her hour has arrived. But when she's given birth to a child, she no longer remembers the pain because of her joy that a child has been born into the world. So you also are now in anguish. But I will see you again and your hearts will rejoice and no one will take your joy away from you. On that day you will not question me about anything. Amen, amen. I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in my name, he will give you. Until now you have not asked anything in my name, but asking you will receive so that your joy may be complete. So there's so much here to unpack, ⁓ but just a few things I want to point out as we get started are what Christ is promising. He's promising a lot. It's a loaded promise. For starters, that through the ultimate suffering of a mother giving birth, this analogy that he's drawing to prepare his disciples for ⁓ ultimate suffering of his passion. It's through that ultimate suffering that comes life. comes salvation, comes communion with the Father, comes the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, that whatever they ask in His name they shall receive and that their joy might be complete. This just blows my mind. And that Christ Himself, these are Christ's words, He Himself is drawing the parallel and says that what He's preparing to do is precisely what mothers do and are doing in giving birth to a child, bringing about a new life. And as you started, Annie, I just think this is such a fitting and profound image for the Christ-like nature of motherhood. So what are your thoughts, Annie?

Annie Muller: Yeah. Yeah, it's so incredible. And it's funny because I've read this passage dozens of times. I mean, we hear it, of course, in the mass, but I've read it in my own study of scripture. you know, this this is reminiscent of the Psalms as well. There are a couple of Psalms that refer to labor pains. And I think even in Isaiah, he talks about the labor pains of a mother in conjunction with Christ coming and or the Messiah coming. So but it did strike me in a unique way that time as we prepared for this and just that he could have said anything like he he could have drawn any analogy. He loves analogies. loves stories. But this is the one he chose. And I think we we should not be lost on us. We need to consider why he did and what is there for us in that, particularly as moms. One thing I always marvel at and I know If you've heard me speak, you've heard me say it in retreats. I probably said it on past podcast episodes. But in Christ's final moments on the cross, blood and water flow from his side as it's pierced. And this is this profound image of death. It's just before he says it is finished. But it mirrors what happens when we bring life into the world. So every human soul is ushered into the world with blood and water flowing. And I always say, you know, priests don't do that. They don't give blood and water for their parishioners. Like that is uniquely motherhood that we literally spill blood and water when we give birth. And it doesn't matter how you give birth. It happens, right? It doesn't matter. C-section, natural, whatever it is, it happens. And of course, Christ was aware of that. when the blood and water flowed on the cross. And we know that the giving of our bodies doesn't end in labor. We've all experienced that feeling, whether our children come to us via adoption or birth, that this is my body given up for you. I think we all feel that on many levels. especially with young children multiple times a day, but particularly through through pregnancy ⁓ or for adopted mothers like the the waiting, the hoping, the praying, the suffering. And here Christ is saying all of that. goes away the second you hold that baby. And this is universal truth, right? That you go through the pains of labor, through surgery, whatever it is, the second you hold that baby, you are not thinking at all about what you just went through. So what a beautiful reminder and analogy and think, ⁓ that's what it's going to be like when we get to heaven. Like when he says, what does he say that? ⁓ I will see you again. No one will take your joy away. Praise God. ⁓ you will not question me about anything like there won't be any lingering questions or sorrows. But Lord, why that will disappear? in with the beatific vision. it also makes me think that, you know, we're invited to see this parallel of enduring suffering on earth. and knowing that it's for something. so, you know, that it's redemptive. And I think this is such a beautiful gift of the Church's teaching on suffering, that it truly isn't lost. And I think of Paul, you know, when he talks about looking through the glass or the mirror, and now we see dimly, we see in part, but we will see in full. And so that's just in Corinthians, right? That's Paul taking what Christ is saying here, and now he's living it. They're being persecuted. They're being killed for their faith. And he's saying, well, I count it all joy. So it also makes me think that, OK, so Christ is saying he's calling to mind labor, which is in childbirth, which is uniquely feminine. And it's mostly the women who stay until the end at the foot of the cross. that are near to him in his suffering. So, Haley, when we're talking about the women, and in particular, of course, our blessed mother, what does that image invoke for you, that Mary at the foot of the cross at the time of his death?

Hailey Skinner: Hmm. I love this question and I love this image. I think it's a really powerful prayer and I invite our listeners, especially this Holy Week, to ⁓ with this scene, to enter into the scene. Imagine yourself there at the foot of the cross with Mary. I her there gazing up at her son. Just imagine her heart and her mind kind of swirling with a whirlwind of thoughts and emotions and memories. probably overcome with grief and at the same time, pondering the events of her life leading up to this moment. How did I get here? Perhaps recalling the words her son preached and the miracles that he performed. Perhaps even thinking back to that very first moment that she knew of his existence, the visit from the angel and perhaps echoing her same question, but now in this new light of the cross, but ⁓ how this be? So there at the cross, the catechism says, she stood in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten son, the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart. How beautiful. I really invite you to just enter into that scene this holy week with Mary.

Annie Muller: Yeah, and we'll put that quote, that's from 964 in the catechism, we'll put that in the show notes, along with the scripture references, just so that when you have time, y'all can go back and kind of look at these things. ⁓ It's interesting you say that because literally just this week I was reading something from the Venerable Fulton Sheen in reflection on this this moment in time at the cross of the foot of the cross. ⁓ And he considers really what you just said that certainly. As she's gazing up at Christ. Giving his life of. course, she's remembering all the childhood. moments with him. And I think of this like on a very small level, you know, just as we see our children grow. I experience this all the time where because my kids are older, where I see these glimpses of them and like I'm just flooded with a particular memory or an image of their little face. I have a son getting married and literally last night we were stuffing invitations and stamping and he and his fiance were here. I looked over, he was ⁓ addressing an invitation and he was making, I'll cry, he was making this little face that I just vividly remember him making as a second grader learning to write in cursive, you know? And I just was filled with this, ⁓ my gosh, that's the same little human, you know? And now he's getting married, he's gonna start a family. And it made me think of this, that whether it's moments of joy or suffering, we're so linked. to these souls and who they've been their whole lives. And so, and the gift of their life, like the gift of this unique soul. And so of course Mary looked up and considered the mystery of... who Christ has been in her life as her child. So Fulton Sheen puts it really beautifully, but he talks about how like she thinks of his eyes closing on this earthly life, but of course she can picture his eyes looking up at her for the first time. There's one line he says when she's looking at his dry and cracked lips, she can see, I love the way he this he says the ruddy lips that once at Bethlehem nourished themselves on the Eucharist of her body. What a beautiful parallel and again this is something we say a lot in the ministry what a beautiful reminder the Eucharistic nature of motherhood because it is the giving of our bodies we are nourishing our children with our bodies. in a uniquely Eucharistic way. And so there's this beautiful parallel and it also invokes this universal truth that our minds are often linked. When we're observing death, birth inevitably comes to mind. And actually, Haley, it made me think of what we talked about last week. that that season in your life when you were caring for your husband's dying grandmother and simultaneously rejoicing and nurturing this new life inside of you and that when after her death you welcomed this new life there's so many parallels. There certainly is an inexhaustible amount to contemplate or consider. We know, because of Christ's example, that one of the greatest acts of love is to suffer for the ones that we love. As mothers, particularly this week, were invited to suffer... for something, for our, and we're given, like we don't even have to think, what do I suffer for? Well, we suffer for our children, whether you want to or not. It's physical, it's mental, spiritual, it's emotional. ⁓ But the beautiful thing is that we can join that suffering with Christ and whatever crosses motherhood brings us, we can walk with Christ in those. So as we wrap our head around this week, you know, this the Triduum in these holy days, I thought we could just take a minute and reflect on, you know, this is why we want to reflect on this moment when at the foot of the cross that some saints have called this the second annunciation, this moment we're about to talk about, which is this time that God himself is bringing, God is bringing the news. So it was Gabriel who gave the news to Mary. It's Christ himself who is giving the news as he gives birth to the church from the cross in the final moments of his death. So, Haley, let's talk a little bit just about that particular passage. We're of course just talking about when he says, Mary behold your son and John behold your mother.

Hailey Skinner: I had

Annie Muller: What are your thoughts on that moment?

Hailey Skinner: I had never heard it being called the second enunciation, ⁓ but thank you to whoever called it that. It kind of, it did the work for us.

Annie Muller: Well, of course, because I've been reading, read it, Fulton Sheen said it, I read it, Venerable Fulton Sheen. But then I started looking into it and other saints have come to that conclusion as well, which of course makes perfect sense. I'm not a theologian, so I was like, ooh, what a lovely parallel. But it is, that moment is key, of course, to what comes next, what comes after the suffering.

Hailey Skinner: Right, right. It's incredible. There's so much to unpack here. And this is one of my favorite passages in scripture. We're all probably really familiar with it, but I do want to read just a few lines and then offer ⁓ more thoughts, especially on this parallel from the, between the and the foot of the cross. So it reads, when Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, woman, behold your son. Then he said to the disciple, behold your mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her into his home. So actually the first thing that strikes me about this scene is the verse that follows immediately after this passage. ⁓ And that says, after this, aware that everything was now finished. And then it goes on to say, ⁓ in order that the scriptures might be fulfilled, Christ says, I thirst, it is finished. He hangs his head, he gives up his spirit. But back to this line that comes right after this exchange, Mary to John, John to Mary, aware that everything was now finished. And what this shows us is that Christ's final act, his final thought, his final act is one of just taking care of his mama. He's making sure she's going to be taken care of after his death. ⁓ And this just really struck me. This shows us his tenderness, the tenderness in God's heart and his abundant love for his mama. It's kind of like he's saying, okay, mom's gonna be okay. My work here is done. I can go now. Yeah, yeah. So this also reminds me kind of a side tangent, but I think it's totally worth it. Bear with me.

Annie Muller: Yeah, I'm OK then. Yeah, I can go. Yeah, please. know. Sorry, go ahead. ⁓

Hailey Skinner: I took a class on the philosophical thought of John Paul II in college. It was absolutely incredible. And during our deep dive into his theology of the body, my professor was describing the creation account in Genesis one, the brilliant order with which God made the earth and filled it, everything leading up to the climax, which is woman. And I'll never forget this quote. He would say, Eve was the first in intention. but the last in execution. And you see this in all the days of creation, the creation order, everything is leading up to a climactic point, which is the creation of woman, ⁓ all of God's creative power leading up to her and ultimately up to her relationship with Adam, which sadly we all know was soon fallen, right? So that brings us right back to where we started, to the scene at the foot of the cross with the new Adam, the new Eve, and we see the same thing. that woman, Mary, is Christ's final thought, right? And that perhaps everything else in his entire passion was leading up to this precise moment of entrustment to her care. That just blows my mind. And this brings me to a final point about this entrustment of Mary to John and John to Mary. It marks the beginning of the church, the beginning of new opportunities, new relationships available in God's family. Right. So Mary is now my mother and yours. What good news. Through grace, we are brothers and sisters in Christ, all adopted sons and daughters of God. This is amazing news. And so for us as baptized Christians, as Catholic mothers, we're not only having babies to populate the earth, which is a very good thing to do. Right. That's good in itself. But even more amazing is this opportunity that we have through Christ with Mary, with the church to strive to and

Annie Muller: Yeah.

Hailey Skinner: and hopefully by His grace to become His saints. So with that, were kind of wanting ⁓ end on a hopeful note, and I don't think it gets much more hopeful than that. That is ⁓ greatest news. ⁓ Annie, what are your final thoughts as we're wrapping up this episode and entering into Holy Week?

Annie Muller: Bye. It's so beautiful. think it's so important to take a moment to recognize how much God loves women. I think our culture, there's such a battle and an attack on the feminine genius, on women. And thank you, Jesus, for St. John Paul II. I mean, we'll talk about him more, I am certain, through these episodes, because he's such a hero. of the ministry and also God gave him such beautiful clarity and vision on the feminine genius. But I love that you bring that up that women, Eve was the pinnacle of creation. And I'd never thought about this before that, but that of course in this new creation, which is what Christ is making a way for, it ends with Mary, that he is saying, here is your mother here. And I love that too, that like he makes sure his mom is okay. It's not just that he gives Mary to us, but he gives John to her. He gives us to her. So because of course, as a mom, so much of our life as mothers is letting go. So much of it is surrender. And we talked about that last week, but as we go through the seasons of motherhood, it's just one type of letting go after another. So whether it's expectations, starting with birth, all the way to letting them start to make their own decisions, putting them in a car, they're going off to college, of those things, we are relinquishing to the father. ⁓ Here, Christ gives us this perfect example of relinquishing of and recognizing we're never alone in it. We're always he is always with us. He sent the Holy Spirit to be with us. And of course, he gave Mary to us, literally handed her to us in his passion. So it's such a beautiful thought. And it's so important when we live in a culture that maligns femininity or pretends That it can be something it's not. I mean, we all know the attack on women but It's important I think this week to just stop let's just be grateful for the gift of our femininity the gift of our motherhood and recognize that Christ really holds God holds us in high esteem that it is it was the pinnacle of creation it's Salvation history came to be through a woman. mean, through a womb. That's incredible. It really is incredible. It's such a gift. ⁓ And yes, hopeful indeed. So we have a little bit of time and I thought maybe this has been I know it's been heady and we're really contemplating some deep things. But I also recognize as a mom that sometimes Holy Week can feel very intimidating or even disappointing. Maybe you had some really beautiful traditions and prayer, know, things you did in prayer when you before you had kids and then you have kids and you're like. I can't really participate in Holy Week. mean, if it makes you feel better listeners, we did not do like the tritium of masses for years. We would maybe take turns or, you my husband would go to one and I would go to one, but. you know, bringing like six kids six and under to a to a Holy Thursday Mass at 7 p.m. God bless you. know people do it. I've seen people do it and I'm marveled, but it's OK if it looks a little different than it used to. So we thought maybe we could just share a couple of our traditions or things that we've done to to observe Holy Week that help make the week different because we we do want it to feel different to our in the same way that Lent has felt different. And then of course Easter should feel different, but we thought we could just talk about some of the things we do with our families to help observe these three days. So Haley, you do want to go first, some of the stuff you all do, especially as you're in it right now. You got those little kids, and what kind of things have you guys done that have helped you set the week apart a little bit?

Hailey Skinner: Yeah, ⁓ we're kind of in that season as you were describing, realizing that doing the whole tritium as a family is not what we're able to do right now. ⁓ So we take turns going to the liturgy. ⁓ But one thing we do on Holy Thursday that's been really beautiful and now that we have children, I'm super eager to do with them. ⁓

Annie Muller: Might not work.

Hailey Skinner: is on Holy Thursday, we read chapter 13 of John's gospel, the washing of the disciples feet. And then my husband and I wash each other's feet and then wash our children's feet. And that's just been really beautiful for our marriage. We started doing that when we were engaged and we've continued that tradition. We also pray the rosary every day of Holy Week, doing the mysteries that fall on each day. So praying through all of the mysteries. that's been really beautiful. ⁓ And then on Holy Saturday, we really just like to kind of enter into the silence, the stillness, the mystery, ⁓ not scheduling anything big on that day, but only letting ourselves read scripture on that day, you know, just being kind of still as much as we can, ⁓ it kind of like a silent retreat and just entering into that ⁓ state that we imagine our lady and the disciples were in just pondering what in the world just happened yesterday and how does this change things. ⁓ And then on Sunday, it's kind of different every year based on who's hosting and if we're traveling to see family, but it's the biggest party of the year. So on Sunday, lots of treats. Of course, go to Mass, celebrate with the family, Easter egg hunts and big party.

Annie Muller: Yeah, yeah, I know I ⁓ heard a priest one time say that we Easter should be the biggest party of the year. You know, like what are we doing that if we don't make it, it should be so set apart and incredible. And I do feel like we've done that. We always host. always have, I don't know, 50 people or something and try to make it a big deal. But I also love that about the church that it's not just one day. So we have a season. you know, an Easter season as she always sees fit Christmas. Same thing that it's not over. We get to keep living in the glory of the resurrection. So, yeah, for us, you know, it's funny, we did very similar things to what you're saying when our kids were little. Adam did always wash our feet and we would read read that same gospel and then. He would do that. I have such vivid beautiful memories of like him washing their tiny little feet just beautiful. ⁓ And we would also prioritize the rosary that week, make sure we're really like the whole thing because back in those days, we would maybe get a decade in and everyone would fall apart. So stuff like that. ⁓ We usually as a family try to pick an extra sort of Lenten sacrifice. Like what can we do this week that's uniquely difficult or just one more thing that collective we can give up as we head into the tritium. And now that our kids are older, we do tend to be able to go to all the masses and participate. do like, one thing we've done since they were little is on Friday from noon to three, we ⁓ don't any electricity. ⁓ so we usually stay the stations, have some quiet. Reflect like quiet time when they were little was just go to your bed. Look at a Saint book, you know that kind of thing ⁓ But now we'll do the stations and then just spend some time in in the quiet in the dark basically I mean there's light outside but just to set it to set that time apart a little bit and recognize Okay, this these three hours are It's time to really consider what Christ has done and then similar what you said on Saturdays to just try to be as still as possible I love Holy Saturday because I always think of Jesus going down to hell and kicking butt. It's one of my favorite days. just like, we know what's happening. That devil thought he won, that dummy. I love Holy Saturday. I always picture that awesome scene in Passion of the Christ when they show the devil in hell screaming, screeching, and it's just totally empty. It's so great. love that. So I do think of just the victory that's happening behind the scenes before Christ's body is resurrected and what hope there is in that. So I think the main thing we want to leave the audience with and contemplate ourselves is that ⁓ As we walk through the days of suffering and darkness that we do so with with great hope So just like how we started the episode where Christ is saying your joy will be made complete Asking it shall be given even before he heads into his passion. He's he's Caring for us. He's telling us it's gonna get bad but it's really gonna be okay and everything's gonna be better. So he didn't come as an earthly king. He didn't overthrow the government. And He then endured excruciating pain and humiliation, but he gave his life that we might live. So in response, we can bear the trials of our lives with so much purpose and with so much hope. And then as moms, we get to teach our children to look to Christ when they're hurting, when they're betrayed, when they're abandoned, when they're afraid. And we get to teach them to suffer well and to suffer with purpose. So those are the conversations we can have with them this week. Those are the ways we can point them to Holy Saturday, to Resurrection Sunday, that as Christ's earthly body dies, the earth cries out. It quakes. The veil is torn. It's a violent response. But then Christ frees the prisoners and he defeats Satan ⁓ all works of darkness. And He defeats death. mean, death is dead. because of what Christ is doing this week. Praise God. what Christ did in these three days and what he does on Sunday, that changes the way we live. It changes the we raise our children. It changes the way we see the world. So we hope and encourage you that as you go into Holy Week, you can be sustained by the great, great love of Christ and know that whatever you can offer him this week, that's all he wants. It doesn't have to look a certain way. He just wants you, your motherhood, your children. He just wants your heart. And so that's what we give him. So we're so grateful you guys tuned in and just keep giving God your fiat in the mess. We'll see you next time.