Annie Muller: welcome back to Fiat in the Mess. We're so glad to have you. ⁓ excited about today's show. We have Father Thomas Esposito on, and Haley is here as always. Welcome, Father Thomas. How are you? ⁓ Fr. Thomas Esposito: Great to be here, Annie. Very grateful for the invitation. Annie Muller: ⁓ well, we're so glad you made the time. I know your schedule's a little crazy and summer is always extra crazy. So thanks for making the time. So Father Thomas is a Cistercian monk here in Irving, ⁓ where we all live actually. And he's a graduate of the University of Dallas. We just discovered we were there at the same time. So ⁓ kind of a small world. Fr. Thomas Esposito: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Annie Muller: And he is a dear friend of Mighty is her call. So I think as long as we've been around, ⁓ Father Thomas has been a champion of the ministry. He's been a huge supporter. He ⁓ for those of you who've been to retreat, he's our faithful reader and spiritual advisor and makes sure that we don't say anything heretical in our talks. And ⁓ he's incredibly encouraging, I will say, as someone who writes a lot of talks. Fr. Thomas Esposito: Yeah. Annie Muller: ⁓ I'm always so blessed by your feedback, Father. You're so kind. So we're very grateful for your involvement in Mindy's Recall. And Haley, you have a long history with Father Thomas as well. Why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about that? Hailey Skinner: Yes. I was actually just looking through my college scrapbook and ⁓ old essays just last week and I found old essays that I wrote for Father Thomas with the the iconic smiley face at the end of a paper if he liked it with like a squiggly line for hair at the top. You just know that's Father Thomas's smiley face. So, we love it. Annie Muller: ⁓ funny. Fr. Thomas Esposito: That's my calling card. Annie Muller: That's awesome. Hailey Skinner: I think if you know Father Thomas, you have been blessed, and I can now call him a good friend. ⁓ I met him before I went to UD through my older sister who was trying to convince me that I needed to go to UD and I wanted nothing to do with it because I didn't want to continue following in her footsteps, which I did my whole life. But thanks be to God, I did follow in her footsteps and studied theology, got to take lots of classes with Father Thomas, and then when my family moved to Rome, my husband and I moved. To Rome, we had a little bit of time that overlapped with Father Thomas there as well. So he got to be with my son and kind of loved on our family during our first year of marriage and family life and ⁓ on this epic journey and mission with Father Thomas. And I was the assistant to the chaplain then too, so kind of got to be his assistant for a little bit of time. So Father Thomas has a very special place in my heart and in our family's life, and of course in our community at U.S. Annie Muller: Yeah. Hailey Skinner: D and through Mighty is her call. So father, it's so good to have you on the show. Fr. Thomas Esposito: It's a joy to be part of this illustrious podcast and to continue helping Mighty Azur Call. Yeah, I I do remember those very first retreats in the Rome's house, the Walls House, and to see the ministry grow the way it has. It's it's very gratifying and I'm exciting to see where the Lord will take it next. Annie Muller: Right. Yeah. Me too. Yeah, that's right. You were with us when we were doing it in people's homes, like a Saturday morning, and you would come and hear confessions and give a talk. And yeah, so it's it's true. It's good for us to look back and remember how far we've come. Because of course we're always looking forward and you know, trying to book more retreats and get out there, but it it's humbling to see what the Lord has done so far. So yeah. Well, good. Well, we thought it would be neat to Fr. Thomas Esposito: Yeah. Yeah. Annie Muller: just talk to you about your story, your vocation story. So as you know, we've been talking a lot on the podcast this season just about ⁓ the role of the mother as vocation and our vocation of motherhood. But a huge part of that, a huge part of our vocation as moms is helping our children discover their own vocations and helping facilitate their discernment. So we're certainly not telling them what to do or deciding for them. But we know that we have this tremendous responsibility and and ⁓ privilege of creating a domestic church that introduces them to the love of Christ, hopefully allows them to fall in love with Jesus and then h helps teach them how to be prayerful and discerning when it comes to their own vocation. So we would love to just hear what your family of origin was like and How your vocation story and then particularly how your mother played a role one way or the other in that, if you would like to tell us that. Yeah. Fr. Thomas Esposito: Sure, sure. So my I have to tell the story of how my parents met because it's so delightful. my dad ⁓ is a medical doctor, my mom was a nurse, and they met in a hospital at a time when ⁓ people could still smoke in hospital rooms. Annie Muller: Okay. ⁓ awesome. Hailey Skinner: Hmm. Fine. Annie Muller: Sure. Sure. Fr. Thomas Esposito: So my dad was a young resident chatting with a colleague about a patient, and he was just holding his cigarette out like this. And my mother, who hates cigarette smoke, thought my dad was kind of cute. So, as a way of getting his attention, she walked up behind him with a cup of water and doused the cigarette. And then just walked on. Hailey Skinner: ⁓ my goodness. I can see where you got your feistiness from. Annie Muller: Ha ha. Fr. Thomas Esposito: And my dad was kind of shocked but then turned and thought the nurse was pretty cute. And that was the start of their ⁓ their relationship. So so I'm the I'm the firstborn of of their their union. I'm the oldest of three. And I grew up in Annie Muller: ⁓ I love it. I love it. Hailey Skinner: My goodness. Annie Muller: Okay. Hailey Skinner: Ha ha. Fr. Thomas Esposito: A family that was very much rooted in the Catholic faith. So my my mom and dad had a a re-version of sorts to Catholicism shortly before I was born. And the faith was the air that I breathed growing up. ⁓ Not stuffy, but natural and joyful. We were part of a ⁓ a vibrant community of families in Omaha, Nebraska. ⁓ I remember spending Sunday evenings at the homes of different families. We would gather to to pray the rosary, and then ⁓ the kids would go outside and run around while the parents chatted in in the living room. ⁓ we had a an interesting parish ⁓ liturgically speaking. I have I have plenty of stories about songs and dances. ⁓ That are not pertinent to this conversation. But my mom was the anchor for me in my intellectual development connected to the faith. She herself ⁓ had a desire to get a master's degree in theology around the time I was going through high school. Hailey Skinner: Yeah. Fr. Thomas Esposito: And so the the intellectual component of the faith was was very important to her. And she helped navigate me through several interesting theology teachers at my middle school and and ⁓ my Jesuit high school in Omaha. but it was always ⁓ an atmosphere of of joy, and she cultivated in us a fascination for God and a desire to to serve the Lord. Annie Muller: Mm. That's beautiful. How do you how do you think she did that most? Was it just kind of the way she loved the Lord personally that it you felt it felt imbued? Or was was she very deliberate about having certain conversations or I mean, I'm just curious. Obviously, there's so many different ways. We just did a podcast a couple of weeks ago with Lisa Popchek about some of the things that are ⁓ universal. to families whose children remain in the faith. And one of the things she said was that there's a place, there's a a feeling of warmth and joy associated with the faith. Like that faith is the the the joy of the home. And that's exactly what you said. You know, like that's and here obviously you have vocation. So ⁓ but can you can you think of any particular ways she Fr. Thomas Esposito: Mm-hmm. Annie Muller: She did that or do you feel like it was just kind of the way it was? Fr. Thomas Esposito: I think there was a great complementarity between my my mom and dad with regard to the way they lived out their faith. So my my dad would be more of the the strong silent lead by example type. ⁓ And my my Irish mother certainly enforced the rules of the house. ⁓ Annie Muller: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Fr. Thomas Esposito: I remember a sign in our kitchen that said, If mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. that was true. But she was also able to to laugh and to console us when we were when we were sad. And she's able to to share in our joys while making it clear that her Catholic faith animated everything she she said and did. there's the Annie Muller: Ha ha ha. Hailey Skinner: Mm-hmm. Annie Muller: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Mm. I love that. Fr. Thomas Esposito: the obvious crucifixes in in the rooms of of the house, the family prayer before meals, before bedtime. but also she she made sure to foster in us a a curiosity about Annie Muller: Mm. ⁓ Fr. Thomas Esposito: the world around us and the the questions dealing with faith. So she was never ⁓ trying to suppress those or keep us isolated from the world. She wanted us to see with our own eyes through the lens of of the Catholic faith. Annie Muller: Sure. Hailey Skinner: Mm. Annie Muller: Mm, that's great. Yeah. So then when you came to UD, you went to Jesuit, you said, for high school? Fr. Thomas Esposito: ⁓ Creighton Prep, yeah, the Jesuit High School in Omaha. Mm-hmm. Annie Muller: Or to a Jesuit school, I mean. And so then you came to UD, were you were you already ⁓ sensing that the Lord was calling you to the priesthood, or is that something that happened later? Fr. Thomas Esposito: Mm. I had an annoying hunch, probably from the age of twelve or so, that the Lord wanted me to to be a priest. ⁓ that's what it felt like. high school was all about sports and girls, girls and sports. And I I tried to push away the thought of the priesthood as far as I could. and I was something of a a late bloomer with regard to Annie Muller: Ha ha. Okay, okay. Yeah, I love it. Annoying that ⁓ Hailey Skinner: Mm-hmm. Annie Muller: Sure. Fr. Thomas Esposito: the love of learning and the the liberal arts. It was really through my mom's encouragement that I even looked at UD for college. I think she received a a brochure or a magazine that had a picture of the Rome campus vineyard. And I looked at it, looked really pretty. And that was the the beginning of my, you know Annie Muller: Okay. Okay. ⁓ sure. Hailey Skinner: Mm. Fr. Thomas Esposito: association with with UD. So I do owe it to her that I even learned about UD in the first place. Annie Muller: Yeah. Hmm. Well, especially because back then, ⁓ I mean I came to UD in two thousand, you came in two thousand one. There wasn't like I had to apply by paper and mail it in. There wasn't a website, there wasn't a way to there were no like promo videos. I mean, you were kind of flying blind, right? You you look at the curriculum and you look at Rome and you think, All right, well this this would probably be good. So yeah. Yeah. Fr. Thomas Esposito: Definitely. Indeed. A and indeed it was for me. from day one I met lifelong friends who shared the same passion for for learning and for the faith. And the idea of the priesthood was rekindled in me, ⁓ especially during my my Rome semester. and I had never heard of the Sistertian Order prior to coming to U D, but no, I Annie Muller: Yeah. Okay, that was my other question. Interesting. Okay. Hailey Skinner: Mm-hmm. Fr. Thomas Esposito: I had never set foot in a monastery prior to to coming here. But it was this particular abbey and the abbot, Father Dennis at the time, who you know lit a fire in me. He became my spiritual director for the last couple of years of college. And he helped me to see that our combination of life, which includes teaching monastic community and priestly ministry. Annie Muller: Okay. Okay. Mm. Fr. Thomas Esposito: was tailor-made for me. So I always tell people that I was not called to the monastic life or the priesthood in the abstract. This particular community was was fit for me. And you know, it was a tug of war, tug of wills between me and God at the end of college. But I've been spoiled ever since ⁓ joining the the community here. Annie Muller: Mm, that's beautiful. It is such a wonderful community. It is. And so did you join right out of U D then, like in ⁓ five after you graduated? Okay. Hailey Skinner: Mm-hmm. Fr. Thomas Esposito: Yes. So I graduated in May and moved in on August first. Yeah. Annie Muller: Wow. Okay. That's awesome. Hailey Skinner: Wow. Wow. Knowing the monks there, they're just the most joyful joyful monks or only group of monks I really know, but most joyful men. and I wonder if you might share with us a little bit of what the community life ⁓ looks for you and for your brother ⁓ priests. is your like sense of fraternity amongst yourselves ⁓ as monks? ⁓ Fr. Thomas Esposito: Mm. So you're asking for a little insider knowledge about the the cloister here. Yeah, I'd be happy to give it. so i i ⁓ I'll I'll I'll spill I'll spill limited amounts of tea. How about that? it's a zany, wonderful, grace filled community of brothers ranging from age twenty to age ninety-four. Annie Muller: Yes, yes. Hailey Skinner: Yes, I am. Spill the tea, father. Annie Muller: Ha ha. Fr. Thomas Esposito: 22 to 94. ⁓ Our community was founded by ⁓ refugees from Hungary. Their monastery was suppressed by the communist government in 1950. And they came to Irving, Texas, of all places, because they heard that the Bishop of Dallas wanted to create a Catholic university, but was in need of teachers. Annie Muller: It's amazing. Hailey Skinner: Okay. Mm-hmm. Fr. Thomas Esposito: And these refugee teachers from Hungary saw this as the perfect place to land. And so UD and Cistercian have always been intertwined. Half of UD's first faculty were Cistercians from Hungary. And we even received land from the bishop for our monastery that was originally remarked for UD. So there's always been a close connection. ⁓ Hailey Skinner: Hmm. Wow. Annie Muller: Mm. Okay. Fr. Thomas Esposito: And our charism, if you want to call it, is is teaching, right? So we are monastic in that we live and pray together, wear the same clothes, but we also teach. And there's been several youth waves of young men joining the monastery. I was part of the first youth wave in the mid-2000s. my generation has now graduated to ⁓ middle aged status. ⁓ Hailey Skinner: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Annie Muller: You're right? Yeah. ⁓ Hailey Skinner: Mm-hmm. Fr. Thomas Esposito: I like to speak of us as mediocre monks. So etymologically that's right. Mateo, the the medium. and then we have twelve young guys in formation right now. and we're gonna get more in in August. So Hailey Skinner: Hm. Annie Muller: ⁓ Hailey Skinner: Wow. Annie Muller: Yeah, you guys are bursting at the seams. I mean, it's you're out of space, aren't you? Hailey Skinner: Wow, praise God. Fr. Thomas Esposito: Yes, I I don't think you hear the construction noises outside my window, but we're almost done with a new wing and a new kitchen because we've literally run out of space. so there there's a there's a good vibe around this this community. And I do think our life is marked by joy. Right? We're we're serious about our monastic commitment, we're serious about our vows, and we want to share the fruits of our prayer and learning with Hailey Skinner: Hm. Annie Muller: Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Space, yeah. Hailey Skinner: Mm-hmm. Wow. Yeah. Annie Muller: Yeah. Fr. Thomas Esposito: Everyone who to us ⁓ Mass, for spiritual direction, that we get to teach. ⁓ Hailey Skinner: Hm. Praise God. That's beautiful. Annie Muller: Yeah. You know, I just on a personal level, when I came to UD, so I was older, I was about twenty four when I started, and I was like bent on not becoming Catholic. That was not why I came. I just wanted to read good books and ⁓ I just loved literature and I loved the curriculum and I'm like, this is why I want to go here. And the short version is that I came in August and and by November first I was begging to get into RCIA. Fr. Thomas Esposito: Mm-hmm. Annie Muller: But once the Holy Spirit, I say the Holy Hound of Heaven just followed me around campus until I finally went to Mass. And then I went to Mass on All Saints Day and just broke down in tears and was like, I'm home and I'm never going anywhere else. And then I went to Mass every day until I came into the church. But a huge part of my preparation to become Catholic was Father James and Father Robert, who were both Cistercian monks. Fr. Thomas Esposito: Yeah. Annie Muller: And at the time were I guess probably middle aged, like in their fifties or so, probably. That's where we are now, where I am now. So anyway, ⁓ was so ⁓ just and so I started going to the Abbey to talk to them. And then I started going to Mass there, you know, I could even receive. ⁓ And it yes, joy and then this beautiful, it's like this, there's all this wisdom. Fr. Thomas Esposito: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Hailey Skinner: Mm-hmm. Annie Muller: And humility in the way y'all live the faith and communicate the faith. Cause really y'all are like some of the smartest men I've ever encountered in my life, these sisters and monks. They're all so intelligent and but so accessible and approachable. And so, you know, I would I would just knock on Father James or Father Robert's door during office hours or whatever with these huge questions. Like, you know, I grew up in this very Hailey Skinner: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Fr. Thomas Esposito: Mm-hmm. Annie Muller: evangelical Protestant world and I'm wrestling with all these major theological things and sometimes I would come in accusatorily like, what do you do about this? I don't understand. And they were always just, that's a great question, Annie. Let let's talk about it. And Father James and I, if I'm not giving away too much, would smoke in his office. Fr. Thomas Esposito: Yep. Yeah. Annie Muller: It was 99 or whatever, he would be like, Would you like a Marlboro? And then he would just sit there and talk to me about these huge theological questions and make it so accessible. So to say that's your charism, I think it is so true. There's just it's it's such a beautiful place. And anyone in the area who has like, if you're wrestling with anything theological, just find a cistercian. They're so loving and patient and Hailey Skinner: Ha ha. Mm-hmm. Annie Muller: And gave me, I mean, Father Robert would give me homework, you know, read this, read that. And then was just an endless font of encouragement when I would read these things and not understand them or understand them improperly or only a little, you know. So ⁓ yes, I have a deep love for your order. Fr. Thomas Esposito: Mm-hmm. No, I'm I'm thrilled that that is your experience and I know it's the experience of many others. I think that just testifies to the fact that we love the Lord and we love the life that He's given us here and we want to share whatever it is that we've received with the people that that come to us. Hailey Skinner: Mm-hmm. Annie Muller: Yeah. Hailey Skinner: Mm-hmm. Annie Muller: Yeah. That's so beautiful. Hailey Skinner: Father Kind of on furthering on this on this note, I I have a question for you of what what would you say to parents of children, maybe with teenage boys or college boys who are, you know, parents who want to foster their child's vocation, but maybe have fear of of a child going to a monastery or just fear of the unknown. It's I'm sure it's scary when my kids are grown and they're dating or, you know, going off on adventures or going on their roam semester, whatever it is, I want what God wants, but some Fr. Thomas Esposito: Yeah. Hailey Skinner: Sometimes I'm like, you know, I want what God wants as long as it's what I want. but so I know there's a lot of surrender and letting go. but what would you say to mothers, to parents who have have young boys and who might be those boys might be considering joining an order or becoming a priest or even becoming married, just discerning their authentic vocation. What would you say to to those parents? Annie Muller: Ha ha ha Fr. Thomas Esposito: Okay. Sure. Well mm parenthood and in this case motherhood is so fascinating because in a real sense success is defined by letting go. You bring this child into the world, you you nurture them, and you know that they will leave, right? And success in a worldly end in a spiritual sense Annie Muller: Yeah. Fr. Thomas Esposito: Is defined by the way you make them capable and able to fly the nest, right? So it there there's a there's an a built-in component of loss that is essential to to motherhood. And I think some mothers never accept that. Annie Muller: Yeah. Fr. Thomas Esposito: or accept and only reluctantly, trying to hold on to to the to the foot or the the wing as as they're they're they're flying away. Annie, I guess you in particular are are experiencing that soon with the the marriage of Annie Muller: Yeah, over and over again. Actually, like in rapid fire. They just keep leaving. Yeah. And now one's getting married. Another one's getting married. It's it's yeah, it's a lot of letting go. Yeah. Fr. Thomas Esposito: Yeah. A lot of letting go and that is a beautiful part of motherhood that allows us to or allows you all to experience the love of God in a unique way, in the sense that the the father giving over the son in his incarnation and then suffering and death gives you a unique vantage point into the mystery of of his love. and the nurturing that requires you to to yield, to surrender. But I think you always have to keep in mind that those understandable impulses of of fear or selfishness, the desire to protect and hold on, will leave you miserable if you insist on clinging to your son or your daughter in an unhealthy way. And that's the work of many years, it's the work of a lifetime ultimately. But there is no peace in yielding to fear or anxiety. The the only peace that is worth pursuing is that of relinquishing your children to the Lord's care. Annie Muller: Yeah. Very well said. Yeah. It is hard. But then there is always there's such ⁓ joy. Because like you said, we we know that that's what it entails. We know that if they never leave, we did something wrong. Like and and we don't want that for them. We don't want them to need us forever. ⁓ but it is a tangled Fr. Thomas Esposito: That's hard. But Hailey Skinner: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Annie Muller: Complicated thing when your identity can easily become tied up in being their mother instead of your identity being in Christ. And and you know, obviously I will always be their mother, but the necessity for me in their life has to shift. And the only way I can deal with that grief is by grounding myself and my identity in Christ. Hailey Skinner: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Annie Muller: Because that's the only thing that doesn't change. Everything else changes constantly. How they need you, what they need you for, how long, all of that is different. So, in the same way, I always say to young moms, you know, the two things you have to invest in the most are first your relationship with Christ, and then second, your relationship with your spouse. Because those are that's the thing that in 50 years, you're still gonna be grounded in and your children will. Hailey Skinner: Mm-hmm. Fr. Thomas Esposito: Okay. Hailey Skinner: Mm-hmm. Annie Muller: have moved on and they're living their lives. So, yeah. Fr. Thomas Esposito: Right. And y and your maternal role evolves or unfolds. Annie Muller: Yes, yes. Yeah. Fr. Thomas Esposito: as as the children grow. So to go back to my own mother, ⁓ you know, she's she shared things about her own spiritual journey with me only after I grew up, only after I became a priest. And I think there's been a you know a beautiful changing of seasons in my relationship with her. She's no longer the the the disciplinarian with an Irish temper who I had to answer to Hailey Skinner: Mm-hmm. Annie Muller: Yeah. Yeah. Fr. Thomas Esposito: and I did something wrong in high school. Now she is a confidant and and someone whose example I'm more and more grateful for as I grow in age and wisdom. Annie Muller: Mm. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. ⁓ well that actually leads me to ⁓ I want to talk about your book that you that you wrote that came out recently. because I was thinking about when we were talking about the order and then even family of origin and ⁓ you know, I would love to so the book is called Blue Miles. This is what it looks like, everybody. Everybody buy it. It's super good. ⁓ I'm not finished with it yet. I started it. Hailey Skinner: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Annie Muller: ⁓ yesterday and I'm no. What is today? Yeah. I started it less than forty eight hours ago and I'm more than halfway done because it's really hard to put down. It's very good. I have been ignoring my children just a little bit. But it's summer and they're fine. So ⁓ I would love to know why you chose fiction. I mean you're obviously very gifted at it. Not everybody can write fiction. I'm a decent writer, but I don't I don't know that Fr. Thomas Esposito: Yeah. Annie Muller: God gave me the talent to write fiction. So why fiction? And I notice it's well, like Haley, you were saying, tell us a little peek into what it's like to live in a monastery. I think the book is a peak. I I think it's it's a peak. Now I know it's fiction, and you're not ⁓ and you even say in your introduction, like, I'm not writing about brothers that are living. They've been left out of this book, which is why I'm sure. Fr. Thomas Esposito: Mm-hmm. By necessity, yeah. Annie Muller: Yes, yes, of course. ⁓ I the way you're sort of you're bringing out the family of origin in this the ⁓ the monk who's narrating story. We're getting glimpses of of his upbringing. And then we're also getting this beautiful the book is divided into hours of the the way your day is mark demarcated by what you're, you know, praying and and teaching and whatnot. So, ⁓ yeah, so tell us a little bit about how the book came about and did your mother know you were a a good writer? Did she encourage you to do this? Fr. Thomas Esposito: She she did not encourage me to to write the this novel. ⁓ I think she she always encouraged me to to write, for sure. but I just wanted to share insights about the human condition and the monastic life in a way that would be relatable and believable. So I I I did not want to Annie Muller: Fix it. Okay. ⁓ good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Fr. Thomas Esposito: compose an autobiography. I I I'm still relatively young and I don't think anyone under the age of forty should write an autobiography, unless you're St. Augustine. but I just wanted to draw on my own experience of living in Nebraska, where where the the novel is set, and of my time at this point twenty or so years in in the Annie Muller: Yeah. Fr. Thomas Esposito: And I I had the desire to present the life of a monk in a daily sense with the the schedule of the hours, while also pairing that with the story of a fictional character. yeah, so there there's there's nothing of me and everything of me throughout the the novel. my experience with Nebraska, with Annie Muller: Yeah. Right. Fr. Thomas Esposito: monastic life, certain anecdotes that are part of communal lore here make their way in. But the fiction allows me to universalize some particular experience of of being human. And so I do hope that there's something for everyone in the story of of loss and hope and faith and and struggle that you find in those pages. Annie Muller: Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Yeah, and I think you you definitely are saying something about memory as well and just, you know, our relationship with our past and with the memories of those around us and the memories we're making with those we we live in communion with. ⁓ yeah, it's really it's very well done. And it's very fun to read. It's it's I'm actually I was I had just Fr. Thomas Esposito: Mm-hmm. Hailey Skinner: Mm-hmm. Annie Muller: I had just read my book club read Tale of Two Cities. And, you know, Dickens is great. And but I was like, I need something that's a little faster anyway. And this has just been so delightful. But I was telling Haley before we started recording, I also feel like I'm learning something because you are a teacher and you can't get away from it. And I'm noticing, you know, there you weave a lot of theology into the book. And and then of course things I didn't know about. Hailey Skinner: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Annie Muller: you know, cistercians too. It's it's ⁓ it's lovely. It's a nice peak. So I'm grateful you wrote it. Hailey Skinner: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'm excited to read it. I haven't I haven't purchased it yet, but I intend to read it with my book club coming up soon. ⁓ I I also got to kind of visit with you ⁓ the past few years as you were thinking about it and you shared with me some of your thoughts as you were in the process. but even even having been with you during that time and hearing about it, I still just wonder how did you find the time to write this book? How ⁓ in your as a monk, ⁓ in your commitments to your teaching. Annie Muller: ⁓ good. Fr. Thomas Esposito: great. Yeah. Hailey Skinner: into your prayer and the monk's rule of life. How does just practically speaking, when you have a big work like a novel or something you're you know academically working on, how do you how did you squeeze in the time to write this book? Fr. Thomas Esposito: Mm. I'm calling to mind something that Father Dennis told me once. He just said, you you make time for whatever you think is important. And in this case, I had to devote a consistent amount of of time, usually in the mornings, for a sustained period. ⁓ so the first draft I wrote in 2021, and then Annie Muller: ⁓ wow. Okay. Fr. Thomas Esposito: Chopped it around, Ignatius Press said that they were interested, but it was too long, and so I had to whittle it down a bit. So off and on, it's been a journey of about five years to the the book that you're holding, Annie, in your in your hands. That just takes perseverance. And you know, there were moments when I thought Annie Muller: Okay. Yeah. Fr. Thomas Esposito: Is this really worth it? It's it's just a novel. But I found it to be incredibly fruitful for prayer. And the more I committed to it, the more I saw the story unfold almost organically. And I knew I wanted to share it with people. And so that gave me extra motivation to, you know, perhaps sleep a little less sometimes, but to to go through with it. Annie Muller: Mm. Mm. Yeah. I know when you say in the morning, do you mean like at four or something? Like early before well, you don't have to say, but it must be very early. Okay. Let's be reasonable. Hailey Skinner: Mm-hmm. Fr. Thomas Esposito: Not that early. Not that early. it I typically would write just after our just after breakfast. And you know, whether I had an hour or or or three hours during summer mornings, you know, I just had the chip away slowly but surely. Annie Muller: Okay, okay. Yeah. Hailey Skinner: I feel like there's a a really significant spiritual point right there that you and this has been coming up for my family a lot lately and I wonder if you could speak a little more into that 'cause I think it could be helpful for myself, for moms, for families, but just the fact that, you know, we all have the same amount of time and we are free. God has gifted us the beautiful gift of freedom and so sometimes we feel trapped by our obligations or by the needs of our children or by maybe you're committed to a rule of life and like you know Sometimes we don't feel like we can do what we want to be doing or what we ought to be doing because of X, Y, or Z excuse. But I'm sure you have thoughts on these these topics of human freedom and time and what you just said. I was wondering if you could could ⁓ reiterate that go it go into a little more detail and encouragement for like how to ⁓ prioritize your and do the things first that you're obligated and then that you want to be doing ⁓ if you feel you're not in a place that you're Able to do that. Does that question make sense? Fr. Thomas Esposito: It does. I I should preface whatever I say by acknowledging that I have no poopy diapers to change or screaming rabid three year olds to to tend to to to correct. So there's there there there's that. Annie Muller: Screaming starving people. They're always starving. They've never eaten in their lives. Fr. Thomas Esposito: Mom was for dinner. Yeah, can't you just say hi to me? But I do think with with with time, it is such a a strange ⁓ concept because we we feel drained, we don't feel that we have enough, but we're we're so ⁓ Annie Muller: I know. Fr. Thomas Esposito: utilitarian in the way we talk about time, right? We waste time, we give time, we spend time, we take time. It's all a matter of just pulling and clutching and grasping for ourselves. And I think there can be a a subtle mentality shift that leads you to recognize this present moment as a gift, as a chance to breathe. And that little breath helps you, I think, to zoom out of the immediate sense of pressure or failure, disappointment. And it can help you reorient yourself to see something good in the present moment. What is the good that I can do now? Not what should I do, what do I have to do? What is the gift that the Lord is inviting me to receive right now? It's not gonna make the the poopy diapers disappear or the the rabid, hungry kids from, you know, screaming again and again about dinner. But it will help you, I think, remember that your present moment is where God wants to meet you. And that in turn will, I think, help you discern that you don't need to be on your phone in the first five minutes of waking up. don't have to ⁓ To scroll endlessly when you have a a free moment. There might be far more fruitful and beautiful ways to give some time to the Lord or to a a friend that you haven't spoken with, to that little project that you keep meaning to get to. So those are just kind of some musings of the moment from that question. Annie Muller: Mm-hmm. No, that's beautiful. Yeah. And very timely. We just did a episode on a mother's rule of life. What does that look like and why is it important to be deliberate about the way we structure our day within reason? You know, you we have to do it with a a a certain amount of surrender, of course, because well, just like anybody, the there's always gonna be interruptions. Hailey Skinner: Thank you. Fr. Thomas Esposito: Yeah. Of course. Annie Muller: And one thing I I say this in one of the talks I give, but I I'm sure I s I probably took it from someone, I don't remember. But if we can if we can see every interruption in our day as an opportunity and a gift from the Lord to be present to him in whatever that interruption is, and see it as a gift from him, like this interruption is the Lord inviting me to be patient. It's inviting me to be available or inviting me to be kind or to live in service, whatever the interruption is. And you only can do that if you're living in the present. Because if you're living with the anxiety of the future, it's it's clouding what's in front of you. If you're living with shame or regret from the past, it's pulling you away. And and the phones and technology and all of it are ⁓ Fr. Thomas Esposito: Mm-hmm. Annie Muller: The enemy of the present moment. And so they are not evil, but we we can certainly ⁓ put them down a lot, a lot more. And just to be present. Fr. Thomas Esposito: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. Hailey Skinner: Well father, I have maybe a hundred more questions for you. I love talking to you and picking your brain about anything and everything, but for the sake of time, I will just ask a few. ⁓ I was wondering if you could share with us any reflections or thoughts on your role and identity as a priest ⁓ and your relationship to the church ⁓ and to families. I'm sure you've spent thinking about your ⁓ new identity that you've taken. Fr. Thomas Esposito: I see. Hailey Skinner: as Father Thomas, relationship to Holy Mother Church as a priest, and then what that for ⁓ for your to families, to mothers. ⁓ Any thoughts on that topic that you'd like to share? ⁓ Fr. Thomas Esposito: Sure, sure. There's a long tradition that sees the beloved disciple as the representative of priest with Mary at the foot of the cross, such that when Jesus says, Woman, behold your son, behold your mother, you have Jesus entrusting his mother to every beloved disciple. And that works for any Hailey Skinner: Beautiful. Fr. Thomas Esposito: any person I think, but it's especially true of of priests. And so I think to have both the church as a mother and and Mary as a a spiritual mother is a privilege that that calls forth a greater love f from the the priest's heart for families. And certainly as a as a teacher, a professor and and a priest, I want to form young souls to be mothers and and fathers and better sisters and brothers. So there there's always a communal component to a a priest's life. He needs healthy friends who are married, just as they need ⁓ healthy priests to to nourish them. And so I I think in the great design of of God for the church We each have our particular vocation that is meant to nourish the other. And so the the Catholic identity of a priest has to be to form young souls in the ways of the Lord that would help them be the best parents that they can be for the next generation. Annie Muller: Yeah, that's lovely. Fr. Thomas Esposito: There are a lot more thoughts than that, but ⁓ that's what initially comes to mind. Mm-hmm. Annie Muller: Yeah. Hailey Skinner: This kind of brings me to a second question that I had for you, which is as a married woman with children who I want to foster my children's vocation, ⁓ and I also want to I'm grateful and blessed to be friends with wonderful priests such as yourself, other cistercians, our parish priests, do you have any suggestions for families for befriending priests ⁓ or like ways and opportunities to go about ⁓ supporting priests? If there's any ways ⁓ Annie Muller: Yeah. Hailey Skinner: you know, of more normalizing vocations in our children's and families' lives? ⁓ Fr. Thomas Esposito: Normalizing would mean just letting the kids be familiar with priests and and comfortable around them. So think them over dinner is is a great idea. Just ⁓ spending those few ⁓ after Mass ⁓ is always wonderful thing. ⁓ You don't have to ⁓ be too forceful it. I think kids are naturally fascinated ⁓ Annie Muller: Right. Yeah. Fr. Thomas Esposito: by people who wear interesting clothes. And and so th there can be just a a natural curiosity that you can foster in talking to them after Mass or after you've you know chatted with with a priest or or a a monk of of some sort. And there there is something organic about Hailey Skinner: Mm-hmm. Annie Muller: Yeah. Hailey Skinner: Sure. Fr. Thomas Esposito: the seed of faith that gets planted. There'll be different kinds of questions as they get older, but I think if you're able to have your own friendships with priests, the kids will see that, and they'll they'll recognize it as something good for them as well. Annie Muller: Yeah. I think right, just seeing it as something ⁓ ⁓ beautiful and not this thing like, ⁓ they gave up everything and now they're pre you know, that we're all what I always say to my kids too, when it comes to just decisions in general, is like anytime you choose say yes to something, you're saying no to something else. So ⁓ You know, you you're gonna choose this this sport, and that means you're not gonna do these other three sports because we're gonna be reasonable about our time. And and so, I think even just giving them the language, like if if God asks you to say yes to the priesthood, you're saying no to marriage, but you're receiving all these things that come with the priesthood. Just like when you say yes to marriage, you're saying no to the priesthood, but you're getting all these things that come with marriage. And like God isn't just a giver of good gifts. Fr. Thomas Esposito: Yeah. Annie Muller: in all vocations and so I think it goes such a long way when they know priests who are normal and fun and and funny and we do try to like expose as much as possible this isn't this weird thing that only a couple people do, you know, Fr. Thomas Esposito: Definitely. Th there are obvious sacrifices that a that a priest has to make, but there are so many perks and and consolations as well. And one of those is the the very real concept of spiritual fatherhood and spiritual friendship. I think priests are are thoroughly and very much human beings who need those those relationships and reminders that they're Annie Muller: Got him. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Fr. Thomas Esposito: Their ministry is is cherished by by the people they they serve. Hailey Skinner: It absolutely is. We're so thankful to you and to our priests and thank you for your time, Father, for being with us today. I was wondering as we wrap up, could you if if you have any final words of encouragement, knowing what go through, who they are and what their mission is, if you have any final words for for mamas listening. ⁓ Annie Muller: Well Fr. Thomas Esposito: Well mothers always need encouragement, especially when they're themselves by their ⁓ failures or or frustrations or anxieties. ⁓ ⁓ think ⁓ a good word of encouragement ⁓ be found in ⁓ Psalm twenty seven. ⁓ Lord is my light and my salvation, whom should I fear? ⁓ there's a sense of darkness ⁓ of doubt. the Psalms are wonderful words to to fall back on because they they build up. And God's grace is always encouraging. It always builds up. And any voice or thought that focuses on discouragement or failure is not from God. So I think simply learning how to recognize the voice of love from the voice of fear or or doubt. will be of immense help to mothers as they go through the the immense challenges and and difficulties of of being a mother. persevere, moms. ⁓ Annie Muller: Beautiful. Yes. Amen. Yes. And as I'm always saying to Haley, it gets easier, I promise. And it changes. The seasons are different, but it definitely gets less physically taxing at some point. I promise. ⁓ at some point. At some point. ⁓ well, thank you so much, Father Thomas, for coming on. We're very grateful to have you. And thank you for everything you do for Mighty's Recall. Hailey Skinner: Thank you. Fr. Thomas Esposito: At some point, yes. Annie Muller: And just I know you cover us in prayer and we're so grateful. we are so glad that y'all joined us today and we'll be back in a couple weeks. And in the meantime, keep giving God your fiat in the mess.