Theodore Chao: Welcome back. what a great conversation. That was so great for all of us, but I'm so happy that both Shari and Shakiyya are here so we can reflect on this conversation that we had with ⁓ the amazing Marios, ⁓ Sylvia, and Carlos. And we should mention, right, Shari ⁓ and Shakiyya, another author that's on this piece we didn't get a chance to jump on the podcast with. Hello, how are you? Welcome to another episode of the TODOS podcast. My name is Theodore Chao and I'm so to talk to three of our wonderful guests but just a quick shout out to all of you amazing TODOS listeners who have joining our TODOS Book Study webinars that have been happening. We have another one coming up in March. And then our... Shakiyya Bland: end. Shari: Wenjing Shi was a grad student. Theodore Chao: ⁓ yeah. last one will be actually at the conference in June in Garden Grove, So join us for that. Okay. ⁓ first guest is Dr. LópezLeiva professor of bilingual and mathematics education at the University of New Mexico. I've known ⁓ LópezLeiva for many, many years Really love the work that he's been doing on learning ecologies in and out of school and the colonizing language practices and ideologies. But most of you might know him for his extensive work with Yeah, think now Dr. Wenjing Shi was also part of this project, but ⁓ wasn't able to make the podcast this time. Yeah. Shakiyya Bland: Yeah. Shari: So Teddy, starting with you, since I know you know them, is there something you learned or something that stood out now that you've read their article again and talked to them? Is there something that stood out to you? Theodore Chao: Yeah, absolutely. ⁓ I think that what completely forgot until Sylvia mentioned it that Carlos was actually Sylvia's graduate student, right? And so that they have a deep relationship going way back, right? And I love that Marios and Sylvia mentioned that they're married to each other, right? And so this work not only is a collaboration, yeah, ⁓ right? yeah, right? ⁓ It's just that they're a married couple, but that this work started with their own children. TODOS and the TODOS blog. So really excited to talk to him this session. Our next guest is Dr. Marios Pattichis Professor of Electrical and Computer Engineering at the University of New Mexico. Dr. Pattichis, someone I've gotten to know ⁓ these few years, amazing ⁓ electrical engineer and scientist, a lot of work with IEEE, pulling a lot of money from NSF, AFRL, most importantly for this work, his ⁓ Shari: Carlos did actually. Theodore Chao: Right? With their own two daughters that they were trying to get deeper into understanding computer science, but also like, you know, I've met, I think I've met one or maybe both of their daughters. mean, incredible people, but ⁓ much this works sometimes when we talk about it professionally and when we write these articles, we focus on the outputs and we focus on what happened, but we don't always tell the deep stories of how it came about. And oftentimes, right? Like community, family are so important. Right? And I think that Shari: Yes. Theodore Chao: is heart is focused on supporting young learners, ⁓ in bilingual settings in understanding the complexities of computer science and computer engineering and AI. So thank you very much for being here, Dr. Pattichis. our last guest is someone who I look to as a mentor and a friend and someone who has really inspired me ⁓ mathematics education for many, many years, Dr. Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis formerly associate dean at University of New Mexico in the College of Education, but more recently, Shari: Hmm. Theodore Chao: because their daughters were involved, because they got to see their daughters take leadership. Like I love Carlos's story. Like daddy, let me take over and explain this in ways that the other kids can understand, know, ⁓ aside a full professor in electrical computer engineering to say, let me tell you what's going on, right? ⁓ something that I think most kids might not do, but because it's their daughter, And then recognizing that that's the way this project needs to move forward, right? It's beautiful. Back in her alma mater and my alma mater, the University of Texas Longhorns, as not professor, but the program coordinator of the bilingual bicultural program. Some of you might know Dr. Celedón-Pattichis's amazing work in doing things like being the co-principal investigator of CEMELA ⁓ leading NSF projects focusing on students, but also in her amazing work talking about testimonios and her own origins as a bilingual learner. Shakiyya Bland: Yeah. Yeah, it was an authentic way centering students and to something you said, Teddy, in that conversation. I was taking notes around acknowledging the importance for children to teach one another and this frame of co-facilitating. And what for from listening to the conversation was this deep acknowledgement for Theodore Chao: and how that affects the ways that she thinks deeply about supporting all of our bilingual and multicultural learners in mathematics education. So thank you very much for being here on the podcast. And is there anything else that you'd like to add to that? Yeah. Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: Thank you, Teddy. you. ⁓ Marios Pattichis: Well, me and Sylvia are married. Shakiyya Bland: the youth, the young people's ways of knowing, their funds of knowledge and how they made space, cultivated space for these young people to build agency and flourish in their identity and language, language within language, like the young people speak on top of native language in English. So was beautiful. Theodore Chao: for people who don't recognize the shared last name, right? Yeah ⁓ Mm-hmm. Carlos: And Sylvia and I were working on bilingual mathematics education and then she said, why don't we work with my husband? ⁓ Marios Pattichis: Yeah. ⁓ Theodore Chao: Hmm. Hehehehehe Mm-hmm. Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: Yeah, And we're also very proud of our two daughters, so, yeah, Rebecca and Antonia. Marios Pattichis: ha ha Theodore Chao: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Rebecca and Antonia the amazing people. products ⁓ the three of you working together, the graduate students, all the students, all the young people who have benefited from this, right? It's an amazing body of work. Shari: Yeah, I like one of the things that came up too was their, I guess their flag, I think Carlos called it right, their flag was the, you know, the anti-racist position that TODOS shared, to dismantle systems and structures that maintain racism. And I thought, I think that was how they were guided, right, through this work. And I think what came out was, you know, how do we Theodore Chao: Hmm. Hmm. Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: Yes. Theodore Chao: So there anything else that you want to focus on in particular Any other identities that you want to bring up? Hmm. Shari: We always think about now, like, how do we encourage communication, engagement, right, in this classroom space? That's always all the work I do now is around, like, how do we engage kids, right? And in the article too talked about, well, math is repetition, right? That's what the kids are saying. Math is doing worksheets, right? There's no authenticity of what math is. And I still remember a teacher asked kids during the COVID, like, oh, Carlos: I want to say that it's been almost over 15 years that Marios Silvia and I have worked together. We've known each other for longer. But if I can say something about me, I mountains, hiking, trees, water. And love huevos rancheros. Theodore Chao: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: Yes. Theodore Chao: Yeah. ⁓ yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Shari: Find out from your parents or people around you how what math is and it was all shopkeeper math, which is So, you know, nobody does that there's not a lot of people that go around balancing their checkbook at the end of the month, right? That's just a lost You know that we don't need to do that. So when I think about it, too I just think you know allowing the kids to be mentors and there was a they said what? Theodore Chao: you say you love huevos ranchers? ⁓ the breakfast? ⁓ you. Thanks, Carlos. Very stuff. I mean, we normally save the food question for the end, but it really is the question I think that most people love the most on these Carlos: Yeah, that's my favorite food ever. ⁓ Theodore Chao: Hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Shakiyya Bland: No. Marios Pattichis: I'm Theodore Chao: Well, let's talk a little bit about this work. So the chapter is chapter 10 in the Anti-Racist Mathematics Education book, Learning More Mathematics by Cracking the Code, Promoting Algebraic Thinking Through Computer Programming. And this chapter for me is really personal because I started my career as a computer scientist, a computer science engineer. I worked in the dot-com world as a startup founder and developer before I became an educator. And that world is pretty awesome. I think when I was a young person coming up in computer science and learning to program, at that time there was this new pro- Shari: third grader showing an eighth grader what to do, right? And there's no boundary on grade or in a class, a hierarchy of positionality of who kids think they are as mathematicians, right? And ⁓ was really nice to hear. you know, ⁓ feel like they kind of helped kids pave a way to get into STEM, because a lot of the work we do with kids, not the work we do, but ⁓ see athleticism as a way. Theodore Chao: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. new programming language called JAVA It was a lot of fun. And when I started moving deeper into education, I started realizing there's a huge disconnect between the world to computer science and the access to it that fell heavily along linguistic and racialized and socioeconomic lines. Some people had access to that world, some people didn't. And to me, I think the beauty of your chapter is not just highlighting what it can look like when we open these spaces up in a bilingual way. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Shari: And there's so many sports programs and communities and, know, but how many end up going to big money sports? Are there any, right? And, you know, this is a more of a guarantee that you can get into some position of power, knowing math and applying it and using computer. Then it might even be with sports, right? But we don't have these opportunities for kids like we do with, you know, community sports and stuff. I, this is, yeah. Theodore Chao: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. but also opening up these spaces for young children. So it's not just kids who are in high school or in college who are exposed to it, but young children in communities that might not have the supports to recognize how brilliant they are in doing some of these of programming. ⁓ Yeah, I love that, yeah. And it makes me think that like, you know, there's this thing that's happening now, particularly with the advent of generative AI and how much it's been thrown into our schools. You know, I work at a university, right? it's like, our university has tried really hard to be at the forefront of this and sort of really understand it so that students don't just use it for blatant cheating, right? Which I think is a very... So let's talk a little bit about the work in the chapter, but also, has it gone now? mean, it's about three years after you this chapter, right? And I know that the work keeps right? Sylvia, you've switched institutions, right? But from our casual there is still a lot of thinking about where it's going, in particular, how the infrastructure of computer science, computer engineering, and AI has shifted heavily over the last few years. knee-jerk reaction, and I think it reminds me of the conversations in the 80s about the advent of calculators, is I think many traditional math educators were really scared of graphing calculators coming to the classroom, not realizing their potential, right, and that they would really allow students to visualize mathematics in different ways. I think that the advent of AI, our knee-jerk reaction is, it's used to cheat, but in reality, right, there's a deeper mathematics and understanding computer engineering, understanding algorithms. Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: I think ⁓ the point that you brought out, Teddy, about access, I think that was of the motivating pieces that Marios I, Marios kept wanting to knock at my door, even though, you we in the same space ⁓ that the time of Mary... Theodore Chao: that I think our students need to be critical about to recognize the ways data and the ways that automated systems can be used to continue creating repressive systems, that I don't think that we as a math education community have really started talking about seriously yet. Like I think that this is the next realm. Because I think that many of us in computer and in math education are still thinking of mathematics as a very, very closed subset of skills. Mm-hmm. Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: I was really busy with CEMELA and Carlos was a doctoral fellow in that program. And I think, you he came us with the ideas of, I want us to come to the Title I schools, right, the ones who don't get access with English language learners, bilingual learners, and Theodore Chao: Mm-hmm. that are not directly connected to some of these other critical spaces like AI and engineering. because I think our imaginations are not able to sort of fathom it, right? But kids, third, fourth, and fifth graders talking about the ways they're now thinking about variables, about binary mathematics through coding, I think will allow them to be more critical consumers of some of these things that are affecting Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: 100 % of the students were free and reduced lunch, primarily Latinx communities, immigrant communities. And so those are the student populations that we have focused on. The program served everybody, right, but with a focus on Latinx students who were, in this particular chapter, third, fourth, fifth. Theodore Chao: everything, right? The way our news cycles work, the way the news that we're operating, the ways we communicate with each other. So I love it. Shakiyya Bland: Yes, there was a heavy emphasis on sense making that was captured through the different narratives that were shared throughout this conversation that I think aligns with what you're speaking to, Teddy, in terms of not just learning the aspects of mathematics, but really being intentional about listening to young people ⁓ use their and aspirations. Theodore Chao: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: ⁓ and middle school grades as well. was not intended for, primarily for elementary grades, but then we started getting some interest. Yeah, we started getting some interest from students. Theodore Chao: Mm-hmm. Shakiyya Bland: to marry play on relationship, to marry these things of mathematics, coding, language was beautiful. ⁓ And also the extension exchange of learning was another takeaway that I had where there was no longer this perceived barrier between home and school or beyond school. So I know that the ⁓ Marios Pattichis: Actually in the chapter, is a third grader. She's the one that was the most advanced in And it was very impressive to see that. By the way, ⁓ recalling stories, I just want to say, so in one of the schools, one of students was a little bit more ⁓ advanced with It's not like he knew how to code. And I just want to share this because you brought up AI, okay? Theodore Chao: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Shari: Yeah. Theodore Chao: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Shakiyya Bland: the authors were talking about how students extended their learning beyond the classroom. So just thinking about what would that look like in terms of generative AI and mathematics and coding and presentations. ⁓ not sure if we were able to capture that on ⁓ record, but I know we talked about it in conversation with the authors about how the students were working and learning. And then they also had the opportunity to display Theodore Chao: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Marios Pattichis: And so I said, okay, this is the day where the lesson that we have in this chapter came up. And I show, because it was the first time they were actually going to code, right? I show him the, ⁓ start up the Raspberry Pi, it's a little computer that we use. And I told him, okay, today we're going to code. And you know what he said? He said, okay. He looked at the computer and he said, computer, write me a program. Theodore Chao: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Shari: Yeah. Yeah. Shakiyya Bland: showcase to friends and family the work that they invested in. And so the meaning of that is also powerful. Theodore Chao: Hahaha! Marios Pattichis: this was 10 years ago, 10 years ago. And I laugh I share the story with many people, but he was way ahead of his time. So he was way ahead of his time because right now computer science and computer engineering, right, the AI is actually doing exactly what he had said. And Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: You Theodore Chao: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: That's what- Shari: Yeah, you know, when I read what their initial task was or what the initial program was, which was, um, guess my number, right? With the computer. and I thought, Hey, I used to do this race to 100 activity, with students. It was a game, right? And, we played it, played it, played it. And there's a strategy. And if they figured out what the strategy, so I said, Hey, play this at home and bet someone for chores, right? Cause now you know how to win, right? You know where to win. Theodore Chao: Ha Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: ⁓ Theodore Chao: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Marios Pattichis: I want to go back and show you to the whole world that you predicted it and we were laughing then and now we know it's like he was the one that was right. Theodore Chao: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ Shakiyya Bland: you Shari: And you'd be like, ⁓ right. And did a high school class. ⁓ you think, ⁓ it's race to 100. The numbers were like a nimb. But I thought, you know what? Had I worked with somebody who was in computer, I could have extended it to even be a let's kind of program and ⁓ to order of operations. Now that I think about it, I'm like, my god, it was such a missed opportunity. So it makes me really think about how we with. Because it used to be like, you know, Theodore Chao: They knew what future would come, ⁓ Carlos: he predicted the future definitely. So now that Silvia mentioned CEMELA, yes, I think we've each other longer than 15 years. I think it's been 20 years already. ⁓ Yes. Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: Yes. Theodore Chao: Can I pause, Carlos? ⁓ CEMELA just for our readers, that is the... ⁓ Carlos: the Center for the Mathematics Education of Latinos and it was learning center. mean, learning Sylvia can speak more about it because she was PI there. But yeah, so it was, ⁓ yes, was supporting ⁓ doctoral you know? So I was in ⁓ Chicago in Chicago we had an afterschool program called Los Rios de CEMELA and I working there. So when I moved to Shari: Put math in your history class. Put a graph, right? Like so superficial. Put, ⁓ write about math, you know, that kind of thing. But everything was so still in your bubble, yet we're trying to use people's pieces. And I thought, you know, there's a real need then if we want to do true application and tasks, real authentic tasks for kids, ⁓ can't stay within our math bubble, right? We have to really talk to people. Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: teaching and learning center, yeah. Shakiyya Bland: in. Theodore Chao: And funded by NSF? Carlos: to hear Sylvia and Marios were talking about what we can do. know, we to work with kids, but we also, ⁓ I I was, ⁓ I been so impacted by the openness of an afterschool program where you can do more things, you know, and the afterschool program that we were doing was inspired in a La Clase Mágica from Olga Vasquez. So we wanted to do all of that bilingual thing and then wanted to do the... Theodore Chao: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Shari: at a level that we're meeting with mutual respect to, right? And in their home, when our three authors are working together, there's a respect amongst what you know, right? And how we can utilize that for the good of the kids. And I think, you know, we need to figure out what spaces we can come together that way and really build authentic tasks for kids that are not contrived or something, you know, because I don't have the expertise of Theodore Chao: Yeah. Carlos: the coding and we wanted to do the mathematics and so how can we mix all of this together and you know that's how the idea started coming together but I think from the very beginning it was how can students see themselves in learning about computer programming and still connected to their own lives. I think that was part of the inspiration from La Clase Magica. Theodore Chao: Yeah. Shari: I can't apply math to electrical engineering because I don't know. Theodore Chao: Yeah. But I think that for, you know, like for our teachers out there who feel similar to you Shari, right? Like I, you know, I, we've been trained as math educators, we've been trained as multiple, multiple subject elementary educators. There's, there's a certain amount of fear, right? As to try something new that we don't understand fully, right? And what I did love is, you know, and so ⁓ for our listeners out there, Marios sent us links on GitHub to their curriculum. And I think he mentioned that ⁓ designed it so that it works directly in schools so that all the links, I mean, you don't really need anything other than. Shari: Yeah. Theodore Chao: Can we go back a little bit? Because you mentioned La Clasa Mágica which I know a little bit because I read that work heavily when I was in grad school. And so I didn't realize the origins of this work, particularly in computer science and coding, have origins in your work in ⁓ going 15 years, a center that NSF built, and of this amazing network that I think has deeply permeated our math education community today ⁓ of supporting Latina mathematics educators. But then also in classroom of Mathematica, I mean, as students access to a browser so that the students can go on to GitHub and get all the things and run it on Python. And what I love about the world we're living in, using things like Jupyter Notebook and Python, they run directly in a browser. They're easy for students to do. And oftentimes, even if a student doesn't understand a lot of the semantics about coding, if they try it out, it sometimes works. And so if it doesn't work, it gives them feedback. Like this work, right, is, goes deep, right? This is like, we're talking about 20 or 30 years now, right, in math education, particularly in supporting bilingual learners. Shakiyya Bland: That's true. Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: Right. Theodore Chao: I think that the world that we're living in, particularly for young people to access coding and access this level of data thinking is wonderful. But I think it requires people like us and people like ⁓ and Carlos and Sylvia, right? To think deeply, to sort of share their own expertise on how do you support bilingual learners to do this? How do you support students who have often been pushed out of the mathematics and STEM pipeline? Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: yeah, no, it's been, it's been a while. It's been, it's been a long trajectory of work that we've been committed to doing. And, and you would, so Teddy, you were also talking about how this work has evolved. ⁓ after the afterschool program, Theodore Chao: How do you start this in early childhood? How do you create community spaces to do this well? And I think that there's a number of projects around the country that have been doing this, but we are at the very forefronts of this work. And my fear is that the sort of capitalistic ways of thinking of AI ⁓ so well-funded that what doing is just a drop in the bucket, right? And maybe it's encouraging that this work is there, but to continue to amplify it, that there are ways that we can do this, which we don't have to use corporate curriculum. We don't have to... Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: we decided bring some of those ideas into the classroom. And COVID hit, right? ⁓ Right the day that we were funded for that ⁓ project when we started hearing about the first cases in New Mexico, right? And so had to come to a pass for at least year or two. Theodore Chao: you ⁓ my gosh. Mm-hmm. have to frame students who are interested in computer science as just programmers or software developers or people who invest money and investment bankers, right? That there are other ways to think critically about this work other than generating more money or building corporations. ⁓ my gosh. Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: the work started taking off with a couple of teachers who were willing to have us in their classrooms, right? So we're very blessed that at least we got to test some of these ideas with the teachers and doing what we wanted to expand the ideas into taking those into the classroom and having them, and having those working with the teachers to really create lessons Shari: think of like video games, they're so addictive, right? And but there's a lot of failure in video games, right? You get to a level and you like how many times might you have done a level like a hundred hundreds of times to be able to pass something. So, you know, what could we use in terms of, you know, I know, my friend, Randy does game based learning, right? ⁓ Theodore Chao: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: that resonated with them and that they were actually implementing in their classrooms, right? So ended up focusing on distance, rate, and time ⁓ bringing in videos that the kids ⁓ were with different characters so that could see ⁓ how ⁓ rate, time play out in a video and also Theodore Chao: Yeah, yeah. Shout out, shout out to, Randall Fujimoto. Shari: or Randall Fujimoto, like at Fullerton, you're supposed to think about that. But you know, what kind of perseverance? We can't just teach perseverance. has to be something for kids to persevere with, right? Your basic problems, typical problem is not that even, you know, it could be, it could be, depending. But have to kind of think outside the box, right? Thinking about SMP1, yeah. Theodore Chao: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, my colleague, yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: with exponential functions with another teacher who was teaching algebra one in high school. That's how some of that work has evolved. Then Marios has also taught, has offered some program in Cyprus for about a week or two that he's worked on machine learning. Shakiyya Bland: and cultivating that space young people ⁓ educators to experience that vulnerability to develop and cultivate perseverance. So what does that look like? ⁓ And authors were talking about how they worked in out of school spaces or after school spaces and then brought it into ⁓ Shari: Yeah. Mm, yeah. Theodore Chao: Yeah. Shari: Uh-huh. Theodore Chao: Mm-hmm. Shari: So if you're trying to resume it. Theodore Chao: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Shari: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: and other foundational concepts in electrical and programming. he talk a bit more about that, but that's how work has evolved to different spaces. Shakiyya Bland: the classroom during the school day for more access and opportunity. just thinking about they were strategic in how they wanted to create these opportunities for young people. And then also ⁓ they strategic in listening ⁓ to people. Shari: the classroom. Theodore Chao: Yeah. Yeah Marios Pattichis: Yeah, let me add just a little bit. So having finalized the lessons from it. So the NSF Estrella project that followed, it's freely available right now. on GitHub. ⁓ But I share it because it's not finalized. I think we should, I'll create links from the other one I shared. Let me say because of the pandemic, we started looking at models that were remote and open to everyone. And then even though. Shari: ⁓ yeah. Theodore Chao: Yeah. Which is so hard. The hardest thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Shari: Yeah. Yeah. Shakiyya Bland: It can be. Yeah, it can be. But the imagination, I just want to touch on the young student who mentioned, who was speaking to AI like over a decade ago. Theodore Chao: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. Hmm. Shari: Write my problem to the computer. Program, program. Yeah. Marios Pattichis: the restrictions came down, we still follow the same model. And me talk about it very quickly. So essentially right now, the only thing ⁓ need to run the lessons is a browser. So you click on it in GitHub and it opens up as long as you have a Google account. And then you will simply ⁓ in browser and it works on everything, on a phone, on a, in fact, ⁓ Theodore Chao: Yeah. Shakiyya Bland: Right, right, program computer. And now we have these little devices in our pockets, our phones, and all around us. So I was just inspired the imagination ⁓ and inspired by the imagination of young people as well as the authors positioning themselves to Theodore Chao: Hmm. Wow. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Shakiyya Bland: give space for young people to lead Marios Pattichis: talking about the evolution last year, what we did, some schools had restrictions on outside websites and we put everything online for everybody to use. So we ended up having the kids run latest on Google Chromebooks that they were using in class, but because we couldn't get the school to lift the permissions, we ended up buying them little Chromebooks that they really loved. They cheap Chromebooks, right? Very low price. Theodore Chao: Yeah. Yeah. Shari: Okay, so Shakiyya and I have an ask of the world, right? Of people have ⁓ extra to lend ⁓ for afterschool program or even a summer school, right? Where we have teachers where it's so less stressful, right? keep asking teachers to put stuff into their day or it's a new curriculum to learn this, but I'm like, how free could it be to ⁓ do it Theodore Chao: Yeah. Yeah. Ha ha ha. Shakiyya Bland: Hmm Theodore Chao: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Shakiyya Bland: Mm-hmm. Theodore Chao: Yeah. Yeah. Marios Pattichis: ⁓ And they were running the software and all of them ended up developing some of them some of them ended up developing further at home so So the evolution in terms of access and then the second thing that I share So the AOLME was know where the youngest? Shari: maybe in a summer program where there's a reciprocity of learning between all parties in the space. So if somebody has a place for us, right? Sorry, the world, I'm asking the world, right? A place for us, a space for us, people in a respectful environment. Theodore Chao: Yeah, yeah. Shakiyya Bland: Yeah. Theodore Chao: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah Shakiyya Bland: And if you're listening to this podcast, ⁓ yeah, tag TODOS in the work that you may be doing. If you have an after school, out of school program, share your experiences that align with this work so that we too can learn and grow and build community. Shari: you Marios Pattichis: person in our documented implementation. Shari: Yes, yes. Theodore Chao: So just to clarify, AOLME, and you call it AOLME, is the project that we're writing about in the chapter. And that's the one that's focused on elementary students. Marios Pattichis: Right Carlos: And that means, that means, AOLME means advancing learning in mathematics and engineering out of school. Theodore Chao: Yeah, I appreciate that. one thing that I really got out of this, right, is, you know, in talking to Sylvia Carlos and Marios is recognizing how deeply involved TODOS has been in this work, whether directly or indirectly over 20 years. mean, they talk about CEMELA which was really a of the early framework of TODOS right? mean, and Sylvia been a board member, right? Like, you Carlos has been a board member. I think that the networks, the human networks that are created Marios Pattichis: it's basically focuses on explaining and developing mathematical concepts around images and videos. Where, and idea here is that the AI revolution is built on the same concept that we need to look at data in terms of high dimensional arrays. And those students have hard time figuring out, but we connected it to mathematics through coordinate systems. And then we connected the number representations. Theodore Chao: TODOS and through people who have been tangental are really important, right? like you're saying, Shakiyya if you have a project where you've been doing stuff, sometimes the hardest part is to find other people to connect with or to find other people to bounce ideas off of, right? And I think this is the beauty of what TODOS has created over, ⁓ right? two decades, right? Is just how connect people who are thinking deeply about this work so that it doesn't seem so difficult and so it doesn't feel like so isolating, right, to do. Shakiyya Bland: Mm-hmm. Marios Pattichis: parts of two that we talk about a lot in the program to understand how basically we'll have red, green, blue channels to create videos. So the video is a very high dimensional structure that is hard to understand usually, but when you tie it to the video creation process, the kids get very excited and they started getting excited about doing it. And they all became, because of the connections, because the data structures are similar to what the AI is using. Shakiyya Bland: Yeah. Shari: So with the AI connection, said, AI is cannot, a bot cannot with people and share, you know, so I think that's where there's some human contact here. This is over, this is a medium over listening, but, ⁓ know, hoping to meet some of the people and like connect. And I like I've had the luxury through Teddy's encouragement to be able to talk to people and connect in that way. Marios Pattichis: So it became the first part of the AI curriculum that worked today. So first they understand what a video and image is, and then they build systems to process images videos. That's the evolution. Theodore Chao: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Carlos: I mean, what we mentioned in the chapter about the TODOS position statement anti-racist, where it says that we, know, education is a pledge to dismantling systems and structures that maintain racism within teaching and learning mathematics. I think that was our, like our flag, you know, what we wanted to do from the very beginning, knowing that students didn't have access to Shari: make connections myself to the work that I do. So thank you. Theodore Chao: Mm-hmm. Shakiyya Bland: Nice. I do want to just share one of the quotes that really resonate with me from this chapter is around, must expand our understanding of what it means to be good at mathematics and make space for alternative or multiple ways of knowing and doing mathematics based in community. essence of conversation, that's what I feel. Theodore Chao: Thanks, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Shari: Yeah, sure. ⁓ yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Theodore Chao: I love it. I love it. Yeah. Carlos: computer programming was a thing, also to a mathematics that would excite them, that would connect and value what they think, who they are, and how they speak, and with whom they do it. And all of those aspects were something that we wanted to start doing. That's why we started in an after school program, because we saw the openness of that. I remember Marios, Sylvia, and I, it was... Shari: you Shakiyya Bland: I read this and when I listened to the authors making space and expanding understanding of mathematics. And so you, Teddy, for ⁓ moderating this dynamic conversation. And it was just beautiful. So any last takeaway, Shari, Teddy? Theodore Chao: Yeah. You Shari: Yes. Carlos: So how are we going to be teaching about what are the pixels? And we were using Legos and we were using, we were so creative in ⁓ to make it kind of tangible for them. ⁓ And I that that ⁓ free helped us learn more or on how to do this. Theodore Chao: Thank you. Thank you. Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: you Shari: I like how you ended with the quote. I I actually wrote a lot around that. And I keep thinking as I work with teachers, what does it mean to be good at math? And then how can we make that happen in classrooms, collectively? again, balancing your checkbook is not me. ⁓ could mean you're an aspect of math that could happen. Problem to get to the point B also ⁓ ways of math. Theodore Chao: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Carlos: But we were noticing all the students that we were getting in the after school somehow had a strong mathematical identity connected to me. You know, their mathematical identities were high. They were strong. So they were choosing to come to an after school program that was on math. But we were saying, what about those that are not coming? What are we going to do for them that are not here? Everybody should have more access. And that's when we started moving from out of school. Theodore Chao: Yeah. think my takeaway is just if, know, click the links, take a look at it. If you have not, as a teacher, if you have never played with Python, if you have never played with Jupyter Notebook or Lite or some of these other like really, really simple, simplistic ways of jumping into coding, I just try, try doing it. I mean, you could do it on your phone these days, right? It's a lot of fun. And it really allows for many teachers that I work with a chance to think of math in a different way. Right. And I think that what's nice is, you know, this, I don't think we talked to Shari: Thanks. Theodore Chao: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: into the Carlos: context into the in-school and that's why Sylvia was mentioning that we moved to that where we had to be more restricted and connected to the standards so that we could fulfill that line that the teachers wanted to fulfill. But you know, the free exploration helped us to learn how to imagine maybe how to do it in a more constrained setting. But I think just been ⁓ a wonderful trajectory of thinking about Theodore Chao: Yeah. Shakiyya Bland: Mm. Theodore Chao: Yeah. deeply about it, but the idea that they were doing these in bilingual, trans-languaging spaces. So students, right, like Marios shared a little bit about his learning of English, but to me, what's beautiful is students are engaging and understanding how to use English in the classroom. They're learning to code. They might be switching back and forth between Spanish, English, and now Python, right? Like it's a wonderful space, right? And if we open up spaces for students to feel like they can do all these things, right? And that they don't have to do necessarily any of them well. Carlos: promoting connections that are meaningful but also connecting to the school and those who are not necessarily thinking that they are good in math. Shakiyya Bland: Yeah. Theodore Chao: but they have each other to connect with and build on. think that there's really happening here, right? Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: Yeah, I think that piece is really critical. Yeah. Shari: I think looking back, I think I talked to the authors about it, but looking back, if I had to redo parenting again, I would have put some fun coding. ⁓ would have advocated for that in the schools. Being so heavily involved with PTA and those kinds of things, I think I would have been a lot more, yeah, more pressure around that, I think, because knowing what I know. Marios Pattichis: Yeah, of the biggest things about, first of all, I just want to say that I owe my advancing of school learning in math and literature. It's ⁓ the basic idea of teaching middle school. That is roughly the age that started. ⁓ And I was learning how to code using English textbook. At the same I was learning English. Theodore Chao: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Mmm. Yeah. Hmm. Marios Pattichis: So to me, I always felt like, oh, that's how I started. I just really going back to the, okay, we know a little bit of English and we're learning English and we can read this book or programming and then try to program based on the limited English that I have. So it kind of helped me to understand what the kids were going through. And it's... Shari: how much they had to do in college and they weren't even CS majors. I think it was a missed opportunity to learn coding in a fun way and not wait for your senior year to take AP Computer Science as your first coding class. That was like going from zero to a thousand and then maybe not even enjoying it after that, right? Leaving that scar before they started college. So anyways, that's my little spiel. Okay. Theodore Chao: Yeah. Yeah. That should not be your first coding class. Shakiyya Bland: you Theodore Chao: Yeah. Yeah. Shakiyya Bland: No, it's fine. Yeah. Well, my call to action, just my last, my last point is page 140 of the TODOS book in that chapter. One question to consider is how often do your students use mathematics to create something? So I to inspire our listeners to to do that. Yeah. Computer coding, mathematics, whatever it is that you teach. Theodore Chao: Yeah. Marios Pattichis: connect ⁓ that level. And of course, like Sylvia said, we started with our own daughter where we ⁓ a lot from her. And then we just wanted the everybody else's kids to do the same. Theodore Chao: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Shari: Yes. ⁓ Theodore Chao: Thank you, Shakiyya Marios Pattichis: to be at the same level as our daughter right? And that created a challenge of making it real. The other one is that there is a disconnect between the mathematics and computer programming. And to me, there was no disconnect. When I started, a lot of the things that I wanted to do on the computer as a young kid was coming out of the math classes. And I wanted to emphasize Theodore Chao: Yeah. Shari: Mmm. Theodore Chao: Yeah. Shakiyya Bland: teach it in a way that students, yet the young people are creating. Theodore Chao: Let's end it on that quote. Yeah. Yeah. Shari: That's our t-shirt, think, for the conference. Shakiyya we have to... That's little bumper sticker. Shakiyya Bland: What? Theodore Chao: Yeah, how often do your students use math to create? I love it. Okay, let's end there. Thank you. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Marios Pattichis: So the idea doing this throughout the chapter was very important for me because in many, when I was going through the computer science training like they did, ⁓ made the connections to math all the time, but the instructors didn't really, ⁓ me, in many cases, didn't make those connections. ⁓ And then the last part, the last part which I really want to emphasize is I don't think that it's enough Theodore Chao: Hmm. Marios Pattichis: knowledge about how kids learn how to code, nothing compared to what is known about how they learn mathematics. So it was very important to integrate those two to kind of see from each other how to take it. Sorry. Theodore Chao: I love it. I love it. Marios Pattichis: Yeah. Carlos: And so I agree, think Silvia's and Marios's daughter, both, helped us to learn so much. We learned from the older one who is now has a master's in computer programming. She's doing awesome, but I think we just learned how important it was for children to teach. And when they were teaching, there was another understanding of what they had learned. So I think that motivated us to go into exploring that, which is so many examples of children teaching other children and the impact that that had on them, not only because they were teaching other kids, they came with the idea, I feel so, I'm so worried because I'm a sixth grader I need to teach eighth graders. They are two years older than me, so they are super old. ⁓ You know, so they felt that were so worried. so besides that, were also not only teaching computer programming to older kids, but they were also doing it in Spanish. So there were so many connections that they saw to themselves that I think several of them decided to continue in engineering. And they became ⁓ Marios's students. I think program was not only Theodore Chao: Mm-hmm. love it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Carlos: supporting the students within the after school program, but supporting this pathway into engineering and through high school. And some of them went to programming programs in school. I think Sylvia Marios, you can talk more about that, but I think that was ⁓ so part of what we did. Marios Pattichis: So yeah, yeah. So the biggest transformation of the program happened from the kids that came back and started teaching the other kids. And that started as a necessity, right? How are we going to cultivate a culture inside the schools that will be there hopefully maybe after we leave, right? what you do is you, the kids that went through it, the kids the next generation. And I just want to say at the beginning, I thought that was they're going to be born to death ⁓ they wouldn't want to do it. Theodore Chao: Yeah. Yeah. Marios Pattichis: ⁓ was so wrong, thankfully. Exactly opposite happened. They were scared a lot. were very, very scared about teaching the other kids. And we measure formally, Carlos can talk about the paper that the one he related. They were very transformed. The kids that taught other kids were fully transformed in their identities, in their can do and. Theodore Chao: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Marios Pattichis: in just many different metrics and I guess Carlos can add to that we saw. Carlos: I don't know, Sylvia you wanna add more, cause you were there too. Theodore Chao: Hahaha Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: Yeah, some of what we noticed is that the kids really when ⁓ when we environment that learning environment was created for the students have been able trans language because we had a co facilitator also who was who is Vietnamese and her first language is Theodore Chao: Yeah. Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: Vietnamese and then English and was she was learning Spanish as a third language to be able to also help the students, right, to support the students. ⁓ also had a bilingual co-facilitator, a middle school kid who was going back and forth. But I think when when students see those experiences, those efforts being made and seeing visual representations and seeing the applied, how mathematics can be applied, and seeing it in life the videos and the images that they created, ⁓ think we saw ⁓ motivation ⁓ to continue learning about mathematics or become more interested in mathematics or the students who also may not have had the self-confidence in the beginning, even those students, right? Because Our purpose, still remember when we asked teachers to recruit students, the first question we got was like, oh, can I, let me, what they said, let me send you our best. And then we are, and our hope is to open it up to everybody, right? Not just the best, but we'll like leave it open. They would always ask us, do you have criteria? We would just say, Theodore Chao: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: as long as they're able to come to the afterschool program, we're okay with anybody attending this program, right? So anyway, so those are some thoughts too on ⁓ got to come to this program. Theodore Chao: Yeah. Carlos: I love it, know, what you're saying, you're reminding me of, terms of the question of ⁓ co-facilitators, because that's how we call the children who were in middle school, as we were teaching, they were co-facilitators. ⁓ they were saying, you know, they gained a lot of their own identity, but, you know, they also taught us so much, ⁓ because, know, as they were teaching other children, they were speaking their language. And ⁓ the students Theodore Chao: Mm-hmm. Carlos: were more likely to understand them. know, like Marios was teaching with his daughter in the same group, ⁓ his daughter would say just like, stop daddy, I am going to say it. And she started saying the way she understood it. And children understood that. So that was part of also learning to humble that we don't know it all, but children have this. Theodore Chao: Yeah. Hahahahah ⁓ Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: No. Carlos: amazing way of understanding and saying things that are deep but that are connected others. You know, for example, we learn when are adding comments on the coding, there was one student who said, you know, here there's a hashtag. You're going to be hashtagging ⁓ the computer. means we, the computer will not get it. We are hashtagging each other and we're sending messages to each other so that the computer cannot get it. And so we're hashtagging our friends and everybody learned that, you know, comments on the programming are just hashtagged. But who knew about it because we were, you know, the green color or whatever it was that we were trying to pay attention to. But children really taught us ways of making Theodore Chao: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. Carlos: computer programming or thinking about computer programming more accessible, more connected to them. And that's part of what we were trying to apply. We even adapted our curriculum, including their ideas, because it was more connected to our original ideas. So it was not only about language in the sense of Spanish or English, but also the language of the children. And even like the quotes that you use for sometimes adding strings. Theodore Chao: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Carlos: students were calling the quotes fangs, you know, because they are like colmios. So they look like fangs, but you know, everybody knew what they were talking about. They were saying colmios because they were using what... Theodore Chao: Yeah. Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: Follow me. Theodore Chao: I just want to point out that Carlos is doing air quotes here, right? Yeah. Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: Thank Yeah, colmios Theodore Chao: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Carlos: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. ⁓ So children, ⁓ sense of computer programming their own way. And that's how they played with it too. So think that was part of ⁓ how identities were part of the game, if you will. Theodore Chao: love that. For me, that's really personal because I remember when I was learning how to program, I remember there was so much emphasis on documenting and writing good comments so other people could read. And it sort of becomes a pain because you feel like you have to switch languages to speak to your professors or speak to other people. But this idea that the hashtags are ways that we can talk to each other, right? It's our own language. We don't have to talk to the computer. We can talk to each other. It's beautiful, right? So we are coming to the end of time and I... I love this conversation. feel like we've just, we've just scratched the surface of all the great things that you're doing and thinking about. But I want to transition to our final question on this podcast, which is about food and you know, what food are you thinking about or is bringing you joy right now? And maybe we can start with Carlos and Marios and Sylvia, right? And maybe just, you know, and if there's a way that it connects to, you know, your identity in this world. So Carlos, what do you think about in terms of food right now? Carlos: Well, I think I already said that I huevos rancheros because that's been connected to since I was a child. My mom used to make huevos with ⁓ tomato But now that I'm in New Mexico, I think I will go with red and green. ⁓ I think the red and the green sauce is also part of what I enjoy a lot. that's part of it. I think my identities are connected to those two. Theodore Chao: Yeah. ⁓ Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: you Theodore Chao: my gosh. Yeah. Carlos: You know, my childhood and red and green. That's all for me. Theodore Chao: Thanks guys, yeah. Thanks. about you, Marios? Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: What? Carlos: and. Marios Pattichis: I'm into salads and coffee. And Mexico has great coffee, the pinon, but I think the whole family has fallen in love with pisco chito here in New Mexico. And ⁓ salad is mostly because of need, mostly, you know, getting older and we need to watch our weight. So I get into Greek salad. But then, of course, we're in New Mexico. Theodore Chao: you Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: You Theodore Chao: Yeah. Marios Pattichis: So we add chili to everything. green chili and the red chili is part of every food. I to add it, even though I was not used to it when I came here. Now I just can't do anything without the chili. ⁓ Theodore Chao: You Carlos: Hahaha Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: and my going and forth between New Mexico and Austin, I have always ⁓ loved ⁓ huevos the enchiladas, I with enchiladas here in Austin with the chicken mole enchiladas. I really love that food. Theodore Chao: Mm. Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: It reminds me of my mom used to make not enchiladas, but it used to be entomatadas. So she used to ⁓ make like ⁓ tacos and in tomato sauce and with beef. And so those were always ⁓ very delicious. Theodore Chao: my gosh, I think you're making all of our readers very hungry, right? Thanks bringing, yeah, ⁓ the of Austin and New Mexico, right, in your childhood kitchens, right? It sounds so good. Well, thank you so much. I think this is gonna be a wrap. This has been amazing for me. I'm very excited. Stick around everybody the reflection that Shari and Shakiyya will join us for in talking about this work. ⁓ I really wanna thank ⁓ Marios Pattichis: Hahaha Carlos: you Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: you Yeah. Theodore Chao: Sylvia, Marios, Carlos for being on this call for this amazing chapter that you've written, ⁓ but also just for continuing to forward on this work. think, you know, definitely within math education, sometimes we don't, you know, ⁓ go into ⁓ interdisciplinary spaces in a wonderful personal way. To hear that this was a family connection, right, your daughters were involved, right, but also that you got deep into talking to students and the students who are doing this are... so engaged and still so powerful like in the ways that they're now taking on leadership roles and thinking through things right it's really beautiful thank you so much. Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: Thank you and thanks for the invitation. Carlos: Thank you everyone and maybe someday we can learn about your foods, your favorite. Theodore Chao: Yeah. listen to the other episodes. You can hear Shari and Shakiyya and I talking about food every episode. ⁓ Yeah. And before we jump into the reflection. Just another quick shout out. If you haven't already registered for the TODOS conference coming up in June ⁓ in Garden Grove, California here Southern California. Okay. Thanks y'all. Sylvia Celedón-Pattichis: Yes. Marios Pattichis: Yeah. Carlos: Okay, sounds good. Marios Pattichis: Bye bye.