Shakiyya Bland: Greetings and welcome back, everyone. Today's episode is one I've genuinely been looking forward to sharing with you all because the conversation we're unpacking touches something that we all as hosts think that many of you in the audience feel deeply, care deeply about, whether you're in the classroom, you're sitting around your kitchen table at home or somewhere in between. And so before we dive into this conversation, I do want to ask When was the last time a piece of educational writing actually changed how you showed up for your students, for your colleagues, and for yourself in this profession? Not just gave you a strategy, but genuinely shifted something within you as an educator, administrator, family advocate. And so we're excited for this episode to discuss the anti-racist mathematics education text. stories of acknowledgement, actions, and accountability. We've been talking about it with the authors all season, but Sherry, we have a phenomenal opportunity to engage with the editors. Can you provide our audience with some insight? Shari Kaku: Yes, the project manager was Linda Fulmore, she happened to be at the time president of TOTOS. Then her editorial team is Marilyn Stretchen, Gladys Krauss, Dorothy White, and Jennifer B. Williams. Teddy, what else can you add? Theodore Chao: Yeah, thanks. It's just so special, right? I these are such amazing pillars of our education community, particularly in math education. And remember when this book came out, Linda has shared a little bit about it. I mean, we were full in the pandemic, right? This is 2020. Totos had come out with their advocacy statement and then had four additional pendants to it. It was a pretty intense time in the world. And I think the hard efforts of these editors putting together this book, connecting with authors, trying so hard to advocate for new writers, to get other writers involved, people who are new and people who are part of the TOTOS community. And then really curating the work so that it became this beautiful book. It's just a love letter to our community and how to really engage deeply in anti-racist math education. I hope that you all really enjoyed this episode. What we didn't realize is this was the first time the editorial team had gotten together since the release of this book. So there's a lot of shared connections, feelings of reunion and coming back together to celebrate all the hard work that they've done. So enjoy the episode, y'all. Linda M Fulmore: I am Linda Fulmore and the journey to this book really began 10 years ago when I was on the totals board. We introduced the social justice position paper. That paper is 10 years old and that work was very well received and it led to the anti-racist in mathematics education paper that came out in 2020. That was my first year as president. If you remember in 2020, that's when Marilyn Strutchens: you Linda M Fulmore: COVID was in full bloom. Schools were closing, opening. There was virtual learning. George Floyd and other brown and black people were murdered. Kids were going to school. Teachers and parents were thinking they were behind and needed to be held back. And many of the mathematics organizations were trying to decide what we could do to support teachers. And so as president, I brought our board together and I said, you know, can we write a statement? And I was thinking it would be a one page statement, but actually it came out to be so much more than that. And that led to the movement to prioritize anti-racist mathematics, planning for this in every school year. And it's for commentaries. And of course that provided many, many frameworks for the anti-racist work. And then by 2021 as a board, we were asking ourselves, okay, we've put this framework out there, are people using it? What does it look like? And so that's where the book came to mind. And it was my job to find the funding, to find the editors, publishers, all the reviewers, and the marketing. Our board was very, very busy and didn't have time to take it on. So it was my job to look outside of the board. And actually, the first person I called was Dr. Murrow instructions. She and I have known each other for many years. And then I don't think the conversation lasted for more than about 10 minutes. And she said, yes, and I can get the other three editors for you. So I was just delighted about that. So that's sort of how the book got started. Marilyn Strutchens: hi, I'm Marilyn Strutons, professor of mathematics education at Auburn University. And I guess one of the things that's on my mind right now is I'm the chair of the writing team for the Comforts Board of Mathematical Sciences, mathematical education of teachers three. And. Really one of the things that we've been trying to do with that book in the midst of the changing times that we are in is really think about how can we educate teachers of mathematics in a way that they feel respected while they're going through their education and that their voices are heard and that they learn in a manner that enables them to be able to teach their students in a manner that causes their students to have positive mathematics identities and really enjoy mathematics regardless of their race, ethnicity, gender, or any other demographics that we want to think about. And this anti-racist book has really helped us to think about some of the things that we want to include because We have to be careful in some ways that we don't make the book overly math education oriented because we're talking to mathematicians and statisticians, but our goal is to really help them to create an environment in which teachers can thrive so that they can create an environment in which all of their students can thrive. And with the anti-racist book, Linda M Fulmore: It's. Gladys Krause: . Marilyn Strutchens: We really try to address a lot of the audiences that we are addressing currently in the mathematical education of teachers three. We addressed in the anti-racist book, we address students, parents, teachers, community leaders and administrators. And all of those people are really important in the current book that I'm involved in as well. Dorothy Y. White: right here. Marilyn Strutchens: And Linda M Fulmore: you Marilyn Strutchens: I just think that both of these books are really important for our community as mathematics teacher educators, as mathematicians, as statisticians, as teachers, as parents, as community leaders. I think they both are really important and I'm glad that I was engaged in the anti-racist book. Linda M Fulmore: That's it. Marilyn Strutchens: because I feel like through your podcast, you've been able to reach a broader audience than maybe we might've just reached just by having the book in a bookstore or something like that. And in fact, when we were trying to figure out what the book would look like, we went through all kinds of iterations of what it might look like, where we might put it, where we might sell it, how can we create a book that... Linda M Fulmore: Thanks. Thank Dorothy Y. White: you Marilyn Strutchens: could reach all of the audiences that we wanted to reach. And then also when we first started out, we were thinking about, we invite authors or should we just do a call? And so when we did a call, we had a hard time really getting everyone that we needed. So we started putting extra emphasis on the call and inviting people that we wanted to contribute to the book. so... Linda M Fulmore: Thank Marilyn Strutchens: It ended up being a really great book. had new authors. had veteran authors. We had the whole gamut and we tried to work with authors where they were so that we could publish a book that would really reach out to the audiences that we wanted to address. And we feel like we accomplished our goal and it was a. I'm not gonna say it was an easy task, but it was a task that we were. Linda M Fulmore: Thank you. Marilyn Strutchens: very much committed to. so I just appreciate all of the authors and all of the editors and Linda and our whole team are trying to really think about how can we make this happen in a way that will accomplish the goals that we wanted it to accomplish. And so I'm going to let Gladys go next since she did the student section. Linda M Fulmore: Thank you. Thank Thank Gladys Krause: Okay. So my name is Gladys Kraus. I am an associate professor of mathematics education at William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia. When I started being part of this project because I was one of the authors of the initial framework that Linda mentioned at the beginning. So I think through that I got involved with the book. Linda M Fulmore: Okay. Thank Gladys Krause: I have to admit that at the beginning I was really nervous and all my fears were showing up because I was working with, as Teddy said, amazing women who are pillars of our community. So I felt that I had to really work really, really hard to not disappoint them. Marilyn Strutchens: Thanks Gladys Krause: But I wanted to be part of this project because it was very important to me to continue the work that we were doing during the pandemic. During that time, I was volunteering in a high school where a large group of immigrant students were attending and were not receiving instruction in mathematics because They didn't speak English, so the focus was only on teaching them English and not other content. So through that, I worked really hard to get the students involved in trying to work on writing. And that's why I led the student section. Unfortunately, I didn't get many students. We only got one student to write a chapter, but we got chapters that highlighted their voices and the work with the students. I also wanted to work on the book because I wanted to learn from Dorothy, Linda, Marilyn, Jennifer. So it was really, really... Marilyn Strutchens: Thank Dorothy Y. White: and Linda M Fulmore: of it. Gladys Krause: opportunity for me. now I'm passing to Dorothy. Marilyn Strutchens: Nice. Linda M Fulmore: you Dorothy Y. White: Well, it was one of those things when Marilyn and Linda asked me things. I'm like, no, this is gonna be good, but it's gonna be work and it's gonna be good. And so they are both, I've worked with Linda when she was president, I've told this on the conference committee. Linda M Fulmore: . Gladys Krause: you Linda M Fulmore: Thanks. Mm-hmm. Dorothy Y. White: And Marilyn and I have worked together on a JMTE special issue with Jenny was also part of it. So I knew these powerhouses and Jenny there, and I knew of Gladys' work. so when I she was on, was like, okay, I could finally get a chance to meet and work with her. And so it was really nice to come together to have shared goals. Linda M Fulmore: Thank Thanks. Dorothy Y. White: about what we wanted to do. And it was a lot of talk about how to do this in a way that people could actually use it. So do we have it in these texts? Do we have lines for people to write in? We were imagining a book club or this or that. And so we had discussions about that and really decided on this so that it could be important. could influence. include the voices of the people we're talking about. So with the section, for me it was either teachers, because I do a lot of work with teachers, or parents. And I really was happy that Jenny wanted teachers, because then I could do parents. And for me, is, I did a lot of work. am a parent, and so a lot of times I feel in this... field of math education, that's not always something that's looked upon fondly. Right? And, but the work to me has always been important to give parents a voice because I'm in schools or was in school. I am free now. My, my children are grown. I am a free woman. And so in talking about it, what was it that we wanted parents to be able to share? And so the articles, the commentaries in this section really focused on one the things that highlight what parents do at home. And so the chapter, one of the chapters I actually use in my methods class often, right? And it's nice to use because the examples they use were in Spanish. So when I share it, my students are a little off, but it has subtitles. But it's nice to get them in that space to have to think from someone else's lens. And that children are children, and they got to see that. Another chapter really focused on how to do this thing, right? How do we do this? They work with parents, and they gave a lot of work on ideas on how to work with parents. And then the last chapter in that section was rules for pre-service teachers. And so all of the parts... Marilyn Strutchens: soon. Dorothy Y. White: the team we work together to make sure that they fit nicely together. So how does one inform the other so that the reader would have a nice seamless read? But that also, if they wanted to just do certain sections, they could just do that. So going to what I'm thinking about now, I didn't even introduce myself, so I should probably do that. Marilyn Strutchens: speed. with you. Dorothy Y. White: I'm Dorothy Y. White. I am a professor of math education at the University of Georgia. And I teach elementary and middle grades. I teach all the things, but I don't like the high school people. I don't like those little people. I can stay away from them. I like the short legs. And so coming to this space has been a great thing, but it also is painful. Marilyn Strutchens: Okay. Dorothy Y. White: because we're in a time where saying anti-racist, especially where I am in the state of Georgia, can be problematic for teachers, for faculty, and how do we prepare pre-service teachers for a world that's still gonna be diverse, even though we tell you that you shouldn't see the richness and diversity of the students. Painful having so many people losing grants. Marilyn Strutchens: Thank Dorothy Y. White: me being one of them, it's a silencing of this work. that's sad. So when I got the call that you wanted to do a podcast, I'm like, can we say this? Is this allowed? Right? Because there are things that we have to be mindful of. So I'm excited that this work that we're not letting, we being the host of the podcast for inviting us, but also my co-conspirators in this thing called this book. Marilyn Strutchens: Thanks. Thank Thank Dorothy Y. White: are allowing us to, again, remember the joy that it brought us to get together, to be able to say this, to write together, to read together. And if you don't have the book, the paper is so nice. It's just really nice. If you ever feel the paper in the book, it's wonderful. So I think that's all I have. Marilyn Strutchens: And the next section in the book was led by Jenny Bay Williams, and she's not here today. Would anyone like to talk about the teacher section that's been using the book a lot? Linda M Fulmore: This is the end the video. Dorothy Y. White: I can say a little about it, not much. Marilyn Strutchens: So, okay, go ahead. Linda M Fulmore: Yeah. Dorothy Y. White: I just think, when you look at the book, when I think about some of the conversations we had, we thought about the order of what sections. And we started with students on purpose. And it's really nice that we, did that because we have a lot of things we, you we hoped to, be able to, teachers to pick us up and hear from the other people too. Linda M Fulmore: Thank Mm-hmm. Dorothy Y. White: and then the teaching section wasn't important. And that's all I can say. So I'm a volley it back to you, Marilyn, as they say it. I can't slam back to you. Marilyn Strutchens: Okay. So the teacher's section is a really nice section. Like in one of the chapters, one of the things that they really focus on is different mathematicians so that students can see people like them as mathematicians. And I thought that was a really nice thing to help teachers think about like Dorothy Y. White: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Marilyn Strutchens: How do we address the issue that we don't have a lot of students becoming mathematicians of different race ethnicities? And so having, I think it's like a card game that they play within one of the chapters where the students really get a chance to see some diverse authors or mathematicians. And I think that's really nice. But then also, Dorothy Y. White: Anything? Marilyn Strutchens: They talk about cultivating community in a mathematics classroom, honoring the voices of different students in the classrooms. Then another chapter talks about alternative narratives, creating mathematics ethos that might have been. And then the final chapter is using mathematics to explore school segregation and discipline. So you can see that there are some really rich chapters Dorothy Y. White: Maybe. Linda M Fulmore: it's Dorothy Y. White: Mmm. Linda M Fulmore: Mm-hmm. Marilyn Strutchens: in the teacher section to help teachers become more cognizant of what some of their students might be experiencing from different race ethnicity groups and the importance of really building their mathematics identities through exploring. Linda M Fulmore: Okay. Marilyn Strutchens: Let me say that again, through exploring opportunities to be introduced to different mathematicians from different cultural groups and also being introduced to different ways that cultures do mathematics, I think is really important. And so it's just a really nice set of articles that help people to value each other's cultures and develop strong mathematics in the process. Dorothy Y. White: Yeah. and Okay. Marilyn Strutchens: And Linda, did you want to add? Linda M Fulmore: I think you hit most things there, but I also say I remember us having discussions about, you know, who is going to get the information to the parents, who's going to get the information to the students, you know, who's going to let admin and the community know. And usually it's the teachers. And a lot of times we ask teachers to do all these things, but we don't give them the tools. We don't give them the information, the background. And so we felt that the teacher section was very important for teachers, but we also felt it was important to give teachers knowledge and strategies so they could support the other groups. Marilyn Strutchens: Nice. Gladys Krause: something important to add about the book and about each chapter is that we work with the authors on creating, adding questions. After each chapter, authors pose questions for readers to keep reflecting or to use it as tools as Linda was describing in their classrooms. Dorothy Y. White: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Marilyn Strutchens: Nice. And that's exactly what I was about to say, the cost to action. So thank you. Yes. Okay. Linda M Fulmore: Yep. Right. We also ask each author to cite the 2020 statements somewhere in their chapter. And I think initially we were asking for like five pages, was it? Seven pages. Dorothy Y. White: Mm-hmm. Linda M Fulmore: We were trying to put, but they wrote so much more than that. And we attributed it to a lot of things, but I think some of it was that this was all happening during COVID and we were at home and people just had a lot to say because they were dealing with a lot. So the book is probably twice as big as what we thought it might be. Gladys Krause: I think seven, maybe around seven. Marilyn Strutchens: Or is it? Dorothy Y. White: Yes. Mm-hmm Linda M Fulmore: Right? Marilyn Strutchens: Yes. And so the last two chapters, one focused on administrators and the other one focused on community members. And we thought it was really important to address administrators because not only were they a part of the initial paper, Linda M Fulmore: Mm. Marilyn Strutchens: that call for movement, but also they are very central to making things happen in the schools. Because if teachers are supported by their administrators, then they're more apt to do some of the things that we've been talking about. But if they're not supported, then it's harder for them to do all of the things that we are asking them to do in all of the chapters. And the... Dorothy Y. White: and That's what Marilyn Strutchens: Administrators serve as a liaison between the school and the communities. And so it's just very important that they have that mindset to want to include parents and to want to build community around a student that will get that will enable a student to reach their full potential. Linda M Fulmore: We. Marilyn Strutchens: one of the chapters focus on how might administrators make a difference in our students' transitional years. And I know you had John Staley on one of your podcasts and he talked about that. And I really liked that chapter because oftentimes we have some students that fall between the cracks in middle school because they don't have that team of people supporting them. And so I thought that was a really important chapter. Linda M Fulmore: business. Dorothy Y. White: mm-hmm anything. Marilyn Strutchens: to think about like how can we create those teams for every student so that they are successful in thinking about what they want to do and encouraged to do something exciting with their life or that they have options when they graduate because sometimes students starting in middle school don't take the right courses that they need that will enable them to have different choices when they graduate. So having a strong team like that. And then one of the other chapters was about supporting Black educators in the school. How important it is for administrators to really support Black teachers. And then the final one was radically reinvigorating our ways of being learning and decolonizing mathematics instruction. And this one actually talked about middle school and how some students were trying to Linda M Fulmore: Thank you. Marilyn Strutchens: Well, how they wanted to ensure that students who were a lot of times marginalized were not left on the outskirts. And they also try to do this by hearing the voices of the students, which is really important. And oftentimes we don't hear the voices of the students when it comes to what can we do to help make things better for you in the school? What can we do to support you in ways that can move you forward? Linda M Fulmore: So. Marilyn Strutchens: So I thought that was a really nice chapter as well. And then our final section was focused on community members, mentoring as a model. And that chapter was really an interesting chapter because they started with high school students and helping them to become mentors of each other. And then it was really nice because it was also a part of Linda M Fulmore: Thanks for the week. Dorothy Y. White: Mm-hmm. Marilyn Strutchens: a sorority that created the club for the students. And then when the students started meeting with each other, they also gave back to their communities. They did things to help their communities. And now many of them have graduated from college and they're giving back to their communities. So I thought it was just a really nice pay it forward type organization for students to belong to and to grow into. Linda M Fulmore: Thank you. Marilyn Strutchens: And then another chapter was talking about connecting argumentations, systematic violence, and discretionary spaces. And that really talked about the importance of being aware of who your students are and not just automatically assuming that everyone interacts with each other in the same way and how sometimes we shut students down because we want them to behave in a certain manner. Linda M Fulmore: Thank Dorothy Y. White: Mm. Marilyn Strutchens: And it really made me think about what that kind of violence really means. Because I'm like, well, they talk about violence in education. How is that? But you can see students shut down and not move when you don't respect how they communicate and how they talk about mathematics to each other. So I thought that that was a really nice article to help people understand what we mean by violence in education. That it's not like... Linda M Fulmore: So, Okay. Marilyn Strutchens: using weapons or touching people in the wrong way, but it's how Linda M Fulmore: Thank you. Marilyn Strutchens: we interact and how we use our voices with students. And then the last one, focus on the LGBTQ community. I thought they really had a lot of good things to say to our communities about respecting LGBTQ students and opening spaces for them to feel like they belong, but then also taking deeper looks at ourselves and Linda M Fulmore: Thank Marilyn Strutchens: and knowing who we are in order to be able to work with others more passionately or more compassionately. So I thought like, I think overall the book really does what we wanted it to do. It really reaches the audiences and it's written in a manner that laypeople can understand what it is that we're calling for and why we're calling for it. Linda M Fulmore: Thanks. Dorothy Y. White: Mm-hmm. Marilyn Strutchens: So I really believe that we accomplished our goal. And as Linda said, we thought about the teachers as being the catalyst, being able to share what's in the book with others and teacher leaders. Dorothy Y. White: Yeah. Linda M Fulmore: Right. And I'll just add, we were very particular as to who would publish the book. Remember, this was 2020, 2021. And LGBTQ language, even anti-racism in the mathematics community, I don't think it was that common. I mean, it is now. And we really wanted to have freedom of speech. We wanted the authors to be able to say what they wanted to say and how they wanted... Dorothy Y. White: Mm-hmm. Mmm. Linda M Fulmore: to say it without someone saying, no, we can't put that in there. It's going to tarnish our brand or whatever. We weren't worried about that. So that's why we were very cautious about the publishing. And I don't think we've had no problems with that. I think the authors were very honest and forthright. Dorothy Y. White: you Marilyn Strutchens: And then one of the things that I forgot to mention in the community session was about how one of the authors brought together people from the community, different countries to a library to do story time and they did math games and things like that. And so I think that's really important because sometimes you have people from different countries who are in the schools. And they're not addressed, their issues aren't addressed well by the schools or they don't have a place where they can come together and feel safe. And especially in these times, like oftentimes people don't feel safe. So I felt like that was a really important addition to have in terms of how do we create community among different cultural groups and. Dorothy Y. White: Hmm Marilyn Strutchens: have them share what they do in ways that are And I like what Linda was saying about how important this book is us and how important it was for people to be able to say what they needed to say. But then we were also, even though we wanted people to be able to say what they wanted to say, we were also cognizant that we wanted people to be able to use it in the schools. And so, Linda M Fulmore: Mm-hmm. Dorothy Y. White: Right, yeah. Marilyn Strutchens: So we were careful about some of the language because we wanted it to be used more broadly. But we also, and I think that's really important because we want the messages to be heard. know, like we want people to think about equity as fairness and really allowing students to be supported in ways because We can say the word all day, but if people don't really understand the meaning of it, then then it's just a word. And so we felt like the stories would really help people understand what we meant, not just using theories, but using people's actual stories. And I think about like you mentioned, we only have one student, but it was powerful chapter of a mother and a daughter. Dorothy Y. White: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Gladys Krause: the co-author of that chapter is also Kathy Yeh, who is part of our community and her daughter. And as you said, that's one of the most powerful chapters in the book and the questions that are asked for students who, that particular section was. Linda M Fulmore: All right. Gladys Krause: written for students to read and use it and reflect it in their classroom. So I think it has served the purpose. But I was also going to add, when you were describing how we were incorporating the stories, that the book, like each section has an introduction written by us. And like we... We wanted to be very personal in those stories. We put a lot of our journeys there, our feelings, our experiences as students, teachers, like all these years working in teaching mathematics and working in the classroom. And I think that's also powerful. And I think that also provide more richness to what... each one of the chapters that are included in that section. And that shows how we were working together and thinking about each section too. Linda M Fulmore: Thank you. Marilyn Strutchens: Nice. Dorothy Y. White: Yeah. I was also thinking about, and we had conversations. We have a growing number of parents who are homeschooling. All so we wanted to give them something to also think about and be able to use. Not just in the parent section, but a lot of the parents who are homeschooling, they'll create small pods, pods where Linda M Fulmore: Mm-hmm. This is a good one. Dorothy Y. White: They come together with their different expertise, but understanding what that means. So some of the things in the teacher section was relevant. The student section was relevant, right? It's your child, but there are things that you have to think about when it comes to children in general. And if you're taking on that role, you need to do that. And then the community part and all of these things. You're the homeschooler, so you're also the administrator. And I think it's been important Linda M Fulmore: Thank Marilyn Strutchens: Thank Dorothy Y. White: especially for me because I'm starting to get a lot of pre-service teachers who are homeschooled. And as we start thinking about it is a challenge because when we place them in their field placements, right, what can they draw upon? Right, so the book allows for things that help those action steps. I pull. Linda M Fulmore: Mm. Marilyn Strutchens: Thank you. Linda M Fulmore: it. Marilyn Strutchens: Good. Linda M Fulmore: you Dorothy Y. White: at different points because they're so relevant for them, not just parents. And so it's been really important and pulling from the statement, right? We wanted the statement to be alive through the book. Gladys Krause: just thinking about the student chapters and going back to the process of putting together the chapters and working together. One of the things that I was thinking now that we are discussing about that is when we were editing the chapters, Marilyn Strutchens: Thank Gladys Krause: Well, these conversations that I was having, these emails back and forth that I was having with Catherine's daughter, the author of the chapter, she really led the writing of the, like Catherine's daughter, the writing of the chapter, and she was the one emailing me and making the corrections. And that process, was all, is also, Dorothy Y. White: Okay. Gladys Krause: powerful for students. Like she led the writing. She was sharing all these ideas that she wanted to be shared in the book. So I thought it was important to be sent to share. Marilyn Strutchens: Mm-hmm. Dorothy Y. White: Mm-hmm. Linda M Fulmore: And you know, I think our position statements and then this book, I think they've all had a tremendous impact on state associations, district associations as they rewrite their curriculum, as they look at their programming. We know that when the social justice paper came out that some of the board members actually went to school districts and to states departments and had conversations. Marilyn Strutchens: Bye. Linda M Fulmore: There were, and there was a lot of conflict because someone in the district wanted to have a more social justice focus, but they were getting pushback. So they were asking our board members to go help them. Of course our board did, our board was not afraid to take this on. So I really see. Dorothy Y. White: Mm-hmm huh. Linda M Fulmore: I really see the journey starting with the equity and then the social justice and the anti-racism in the book. And then we do have another paper out now. I can't think of the name of it, but we do have, say, we're not gonna stop writing position papers because stuff just keeps happening, right? Just keep adding, just keep adding on. But with that said, we also know that there are people out there who Marilyn Strutchens: Yes. Linda M Fulmore: who really have not seen these works. They have not, in fact, I remember talking to some people and saying, yeah, I know about the social justice position, but I just haven't had a chance to read it out. It had been out for five years, you know, and they can go to the website and Google it. So I think moving forward, you know, how do you keep the momentum going? It sounds like we're in the midst of it, right? So how do you keep it going? I think that's... Marilyn Strutchens: Bye. Linda M Fulmore: That's a challenge. think it will do so on its own, but then there comes a point where it might drop off. I mean, I don't know how you rectify that, but I think we would like to see it going. Marilyn Strutchens: Mm-hmm. Dorothy Y. White: I'm gonna have to. Marilyn Strutchens: different ways to talk about how do we support students or are they going back to like asset-based instruction and all of those kinds of things. And really when you look at those definitions, they define, they have culture in them. I mean, really supporting students. Gladys Krause: my name. Dorothy Y. White: Right, yeah. Marilyn Strutchens: So I think it's just really being cognizant that we have to keep the components of these new terms, keep the core of what it is we want for our students in those definitions and in the action steps that we want people to take going forward. We just have to keep the values or the core movements that we want people to take just like. Dorothy Y. White: Yeah. That's it. Linda M Fulmore: Thank Marilyn Strutchens: You talk about how important it is for parents to be a part of their students' education and then helping them to understand how they can work with their children. Because it's just like you said, one of your favorite things that you like to use the videos. Dorothy Y. White: Mm-hmm. and stuff, yeah. Marilyn Strutchens: Those videos, I mean, like I'm not, work with secondary people, but I like those videos because they are really important to help people understand what they can do with their children at home. And, and then sometimes it's just very simple things because in that video they were ordering bassas and si- yes. And so it's just like, those are simple things that parents can do at home with their children. Linda M Fulmore: Thanks. Thank Dorothy Y. White: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes, in the laundry. Marilyn Strutchens: And then, and so I just think it's really important that we keep the focus on the audiences that we have and how do we address those audiences in meaningful ways as we move forward in our work. And it doesn't matter. I was thinking about, I had to do a keynote and I was thinking about what I was gonna entitle it. And then I decided that it was probably. Linda M Fulmore: Sorry. Dorothy Y. White: Yes. Linda M Fulmore: this. Marilyn Strutchens: Not cool, the title, I was like, you can call it what you want to as long as you do right by the kids. But, because I mean, it's just, we get so caught up in words instead of what we need to do. And so that's, and so that's my thing is like, as long as we keep the focus on Dorothy Y. White: you That would have been great. Yes, Yes. Marilyn Strutchens: Like we need each and every student to succeed. We need students to feel like they can do mathematics in the classroom, that we're setting the stage for that. I think that's really important and that they understand the world in which we live in because that's when we talk about social justice is really understanding what's happening in the world to all people, not just what you see right in front of you. Linda M Fulmore: Thank You're right. Dorothy Y. White: you Linda M Fulmore: I just want to say there was a lot of hard work in this book because if you notice in the chapters, there was so many charts and graphs and pictures. And of course, the editors here had to make sense of all that and all the footnotes and the sub, you know, I think they understand it more than more than I do. But anyway, And then the editors put their heart into it. I never heard them once be upset about anything. These are just very busy people. This was not the only project they were on. They were on this project and many others, just as big as this one and maybe even bigger. But they put their heart into it to make sure it got done. We couldn't have done it without them because they had the relationship with the authors. Marilyn Strutchens: You Dorothy Y. White: You Linda M Fulmore: and they were giving the authors feedback, the back and forth. They had to make it happen. So I just want to, I want you to remember the hard work they went into. I couldn't believe all the pictures and the graphics that came in, taking the time to cut out stuff and make stuff for your chapter. You know, that's pride, that's love, you know? So. Marilyn Strutchens: Yup. you Yes. Dorothy Y. White: You Marilyn Strutchens: That was nice. Dorothy Y. White: Mm-hmm. Gladys Krause: just wanted to add to what they were saying, what Marilyn was saying and Linda was saying. And so I recently received an email from students from the University of Houston saying that giving me, all of us thank you for the book and so telling me about how much she has learned from using the book. Marilyn Strutchens: Nice. Gladys Krause: Someone in the University of Houston is using the book in the class. But in the email, she also said she's getting ready to start teaching. And she had more questions for me. And she had this excitement, but also a little bit nervous about how to this work. So going on to what Marlene and Linda were saying, I think if. Marilyn Strutchens: Thank Gladys Krause: we should continue supporting people that reach out, that ask. We need to continue doing this work so it grows and keep supporting our community. Linda M Fulmore: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Theodore Chao: This is so good. Thank you. my goodness. I think this is a great conversation. Shiki and I are just laughing and smiling over here because you all are so great bantering with each other. I think this is the beauty of a podcast. if you could just say in a few words, what's your focus on food? What are you excited about eating these days? Linda M Fulmore: it. Shakiyya Bland: Yeah. Dorothy Y. White: you Theodore Chao: And then you can also say if it connects to things that you're reflecting on in the book or action steps in the book too, you can also talk about that. Dorothy Y. White: can start about food only because I just learned about this thing called smash burgers. Linda M Fulmore: Mmm. Marilyn Strutchens: You Dorothy Y. White: I don't know where I've been, under a rock or something. They are wonderful. And so I am trying to stay away from them because they are also good. So yeah, so when it comes to food, I'm thinking smash burgers. Gladys Krause: haha Marilyn Strutchens: Thank you. Gladys Krause: I can go next because I have a nice story relating to the food. So I'm visiting my son, he's in Austin, he lives in Austin and for Mother's Day he decided to prepare, now I forgot the name of the thing, brisket, brisket. So he, this is. Dorothy Y. White: Have brisket. Yeah, gotta, I was about say you gotta have brisket in Austin. Come on. Gladys Krause: So he cooked it for 17 hours and we ate that yesterday. my gosh, that was better than any place, any barbecue place I have tried here in Texas. So was really good. Dorothy Y. White: Yes. Marilyn Strutchens: Wow. Dorothy Y. White: then Marilyn Strutchens: I guess I can go next. I just went to my sister's house because my mother's now living with her for Mother's Day. my sister is really excited about going from the garden to the table. And so we had some of her fresh collard greens from her garden. So she had frozen them by then, but they were good. And so it's just like talking about how we can Dorothy Y. White: Mm-hmm. Hmm. Linda M Fulmore: Thank Dorothy Y. White: that's Marilyn Strutchens: know, sustainability and like, and eating better. And so we recently cleared off some of our backyards. So I'm thinking about maybe planting some peppers and things like that. Something simple. Linda M Fulmore: Okay. Dorothy Y. White: They need, I've been getting into them, they need a lot of water and that you have to have a male and female squash. I did not know that. I don't know how to pick them, but you have to. And if they don't, cause I've had some and they will grow and they won't pollinate. Yeah. So that I am learning how to do some of, you know, I'm a totally silly person. Marilyn Strutchens: Hahahaha I going... I guess for the blues. Dorothy Y. White: This is really fascinating, but yes, they both require a lot of water and it has to be a male-female squad. Marilyn Strutchens: Interesting. Dorothy Y. White: I love this stuff. Linda M Fulmore: I guess I'll go next. I love good food for sure. I guess my favorite food of all time is ice cream. Trader Joe's makes a delicious tofu ice cream. It tastes just like the real thing, but it's healthier for you. It would be healthier if I wouldn't add the chocolate syrup on top, but I have to add that and then that's it. Marilyn Strutchens: Wow. Linda M Fulmore: But I've been doing intermittent fasting. So I eat all my food between like about eight and four, three or four. And I feel so much better. I don't have all that on my stomach when I go to bed and I try to eat as late in the morning as possible. And that seems to be working. Marilyn Strutchens: Hehehehehe Dorothy Y. White: Hmm Are you still lifting weights? Linda M Fulmore: I do go to aerobics, Marilyn Strutchens: Nice. Linda M Fulmore: Pilates. Well, as a part of that, there are weights, but I don't go to a weight training class. I probably should. Dorothy Y. White: But you were lifting. Linda M Fulmore: But yeah, I try to. It's important. you Dorothy Y. White: Mm-hmm. Shakiyya Bland: I love hearing how you're taking care of yourselves through food, through health choices, through family, through joy, especially in writing work that is social justice oriented, human centered. So thank you for taking care of yourselves throughout this process and being models of that in this work as educators, as leaders. So thank you so much. Marilyn Strutchens: Okay. Theodore Chao: Thanks. Do you want to just want to say, bye and then we can stop. Linda M Fulmore: Yeah, thank you for inviting us. It fun. It was fun. Dorothy Y. White: Thank you for inviting us. Thank Marilyn Strutchens: Yes, thank you. Yeah, Gladys Krause: Yeah, thank you. Yeah. Theodore Chao: my goodness, wow. What a discussion. I am amazed. I can't believe that we got the editorial team here, except for Jennifer. I feel bad that she couldn't make it, but that was an incredible conversation about not just all the great things from the book, but even how the book got put together, how they made it. Ooh, yeah. Shakiyya Bland: Yeah, absolutely. I'm recalling how Linda, the past president of TOTOS, was highlighting that it began with a position statement, thinking about the position statement, the movement to prioritize anti-racist mathematics planning for this in every school year. that time period, so significant, 2020, mean, to be able to be in a leadership position at that point. Theodore Chao: Yeah. Shakiyya Bland: and have the mindset and passion and drive to say, we need to draft language to capture this moment for movement. And these are the things that we need to prioritize with respect to mathematics education and planning in this time. Yeah. Shari Kaku: Yeah, using the position statement as a kind of impetus for the book. I'm also wondering, during that time, there was a lot of inequities really highlighted as it started and going online and everything with that. So yes, some people had time to do more things, yet teaching kids was a 24-7 job to do it online. So thank you for all. of the editorial staff, the authors for, you know, really thinking about the work that we all do. Theodore Chao: Yeah, I'm really struck by how, you know, in this conversation, they really were so thoughtful in making sure there's a variety of voices, right? mean, Shikia, you opened us up, I think. How often does a piece of educational writing really impact us, right? And I think that in my world, I'm so used to reading things that are written for teachers or things that are written for maybe parents, but things that are also written for administrators, things that are also written for community members. I mean, this is amazing, right? Shakiyya Bland: Mm-hmm. Theodore Chao: I think Linda said something in a conversation that we didn't record. She said they really, you know, they had an opportunity to have this book sort of be published as maybe an academic book or maybe a book by another educational organization. But because they really wanted to own it and they really wanted to make it their way, they decided to publish it as the very first TOTOS book. And I think that's really special. I mean, it is, it does not feel the same way as a lot of other books in our field. And I think the specialness of it is it, It is a total spoke and it allows the voices that we as an organization really want to showcase, right? know, things that are written by students. I Catherine and Emmy's work, so amazing. And the fact that Emmy was a high schooler and writing about this deep work that she's doing in Asian American education, just phenomenal, right? And then people talking about stuff that's going on in the community, you know, in a very personal way, it's just magical. Shakiyya Bland: Yeah, and the work so relevant in this current social political climate and thinking about how mathematics education is not exempt from that. Like we can still use our respective roles, positionality to come together and build community and then identify different representation to lend their voices and expertise. Theodore Chao: Mm-hmm. Shakiyya Bland: to share their narratives, their calls for action in such a profound way. And because we have evidence of that through this book. So I'm very, just a heart of gratitude for the labor of the investment of the editors and all of the authors. Shari Kaku: Yeah, I was thinking too, you know, I'm amongst authors today, right? Shakia and Teddy. But I was also thinking about, you also, you probably did this when you were doing your book, like how do I even lay out the chapters, right? This is a journey and they were talking about how the chapters were laid out, especially starting with students, right? And how they laid them out, how they even laid out the chapters in the section. Theodore Chao: Mm-hmm. Shakiyya Bland: Aww. Bye. Shari Kaku: right, thinking about that and the thoughtfulness behind it and really being inclusive of students and even thinking, you know, think of all students in school, homeschooled, right, all the people involved in thinking about students and promoting. They were talking about positive math identity. That was one of their centering pieces of how do we Shakiyya Bland: Mm-hmm. Shari Kaku: write it throughout. I also remember Linda saying that they were taking parts of the position statement too as a way to center your writing. and thinking about how we bring in culture because math has culture and all of our cultures in it, right? And what do we bring to it? So that was really a unique, you know, I just can't express how Theodore Chao: Mm-hmm. Shari Kaku: cool it's been to have a book that you're studying and have the authors and now this bonus of the editorial staff and the, you know, I think I don't, I'm not in spaces like this all the time. So that was really cool to have the different perspectives. Theodore Chao: I know, I mean, this journey for us, right, has been so fun, being able to connect to the authors of specific chapters. Like I wish that we had unlimited amounts of time to connect with every single author, right? And shout out to all the authors who weren't able to be featured on the podcast so far, right? And we're not forgetting about you, we love you all, right? But just being able to engage in deep conversation, oftentimes because when they wrote these chapters, they wrote them back in 2023, 2022, and be able to connect and see how the work and how their thinking has... Shakiyya Bland: right. Theodore Chao: changed, has evolved, has grown. It's been so special, right? And then we were able to record it. So now we can listen to these a few years later, right? Shakiyya Bland: Yes. Absolutely. Again, thank you for that comment as well as Sherry, you mentioned the thoughtfulness around the design of the writing and what resonated with me. I went back and did a little bit of research following the podcast to just identify like as the president of this national math organization. There's a quote from Linda Fullmore from like June 2020. We can no longer believe that a focus on curriculum, instruction, and assessment alone will be enough to prepare our children for survival in the world. And we need anti-racist conversations for ourselves and for our children. And so just thinking about the foundation of this text being the root and from that connecting with community and how Linda mentioned, like from that, from that idea, the need, the urgency, she reached out to Marilyn and was like, Marilyn, who do you know? And so it was like organic. So roots and the organic nature of this design just makes me think and have another level of appreciation for TOTOS as an organization rooted in grassroots work. So just thinking about how it's just making those connections and it's possible. Theodore Chao: Yeah, I know, so amazing, right? And then the fact that they're able to connect to deeper ideas, right? So as you're saying that, I just looked up here, Florence Glenfield was the president right after Linda, and then she got to write the afterword. And in there, she quotes, I think it's Thomas King. And it's amazing. I'm just gonna read it here because it's been resonating with me, right? It's, they're yours. Do with it what you will. Cry over it, get angry, forget it. But don't say in the years to come that you would have lived your life differently if only you had heard this story. You've heard it now. Right? And so now that we've thought about this, now that you've heard it, now that you've read it, now you have a responsibility, right? The world is broken. Our system only serves some students, not all. Shakiyya Bland: Mm. Yeah. Theodore Chao: and we get to be the advocates. We recognize the injustice that's happening within mathematics education. And every chapter in this book details specifically how that injustice is happening, but also ways that we can look forward to a brighter future. And so I think for everybody reading this book, everyone who's been part of this podcast, been part of this journey, whew, now you know what to do. Shakiyya Bland: Absolutely. And it's something to be said when you were speaking earlier, Teddy, about being in a space, sharing space with the authors and editors. And that quote, how that resonates with me. So the listeners, I hope you feel that as you engage in the conversation, the listening to the authors, to the editors, be a part of that momentum building effort. to say like, this is us, we can do this. We are the solutions. We are the ones we've been waiting for. So that's what resonates with me, especially thinking about how chaotic that time was, that time period in education, in society, and how like right now, almost reliving some of that in 2026. However, Theodore Chao: Yeah. Shakiyya Bland: I still have a text to help me through that journey and hope and legacy. And I know Dorothy touched on hope and the legacy work connected to some of the narratives and the stories that were embedded within this text. Theodore Chao: Mm-hmm. Shari Kaku: you know, as they were talking to, I kind of felt a humbleness, right? Like these are, you know, really, I think their team got together because of mutual respect. Oh, I want to work with them. I want to work with them, right? But they were all so humble about the work that they're doing and really open about it. And even being so thoughtful of who would publish the book, right? Thinking without their voices being. censored in that way. again, the thoughtfulness throughout the whole text. And I think just to reiterate what you said, Shakia, about Dorothy wanting like the legacy starts kind of with them and then where's the torch being passed, right? And really thinking about the take action part. And what I really like about that they were thoughtful too of putting questions in there that were specific to the topic, not so much so that if you didn't read it, you can still talk about it, right? And engage in a really thoughtful conversation. you know, if you want to read a book backwards, you might want to read some of the section backwards, right? And again, liking this book that I can take any chapter and read it because it's not dependent on the others, right? So I can choose my own adventure. Shakiyya Bland: you. Theodore Chao: I love that. Yeah, I mean, you don't have to read this book straight from the back, right? You can read it however you want, right? And jump around, right? You know, Sherry, you're making me think of this thing. I actually wrote this down in a conversation with at the end. So we stopped recording and then they said they kept talking and they kept saying amazing things. And I kept thinking, why are we recording this? But this is a quote that I know Linda said when we were finishing up. She said, we tried to do our part when it was our turn. All right. Shari Kaku: Yes, I know. Shakiyya Bland: Yeah. Theodore Chao: And I love that, right? It was their turn, Linda was in leadership of TOTOS, right? It was their turn to do something. this book is, it wasn't just their part. This is a gigantic undertaking, know, countless volunteer hours, right? Putting this together and they did it, right? And then, so I think this is the legacy of their, you know, their generation of leadership within TOTOS, right? And now passing on to like the next leaders of our field, right? Yeah, really amazing. Shakiyya Bland: Yeah. Shari Kaku: Yeah. Shakiyya Bland: Yeah, touching on that point, Dorothy mentioned community built. The community is still growing, I believe was the phrase. And so just thinking about how we as listeners, as readers, as whatever your respective role in this work of education and youth development, what are you building right now? And who can you build community with? to help elevate that. And part of legacy work is finding some sort of, like there's a discomfort, but then there's also a peace and knowing you may not see the manifestation of what you're working for. However, Gladys did mention there was a student that going in, the university student who has read the text. Shari Kaku: Mm. Theodore Chao: Mm-hmm. Shakiyya Bland: and how it's influenced her going into education to be a pre-service educator. So there are moments when in legacy you may not see the full manifestation and then there are glimpses and snapshots where youth will show up and pay respect to what you've invested in. And so this book, our work is just a lovely representation of that. Still growing. Theodore Chao: Yeah, I love that. Yeah. And to be honest, that's the impetus behind this podcast. We know in my work in teacher education, mean, teachers and so many amazing teachers out there, there's so much stuff to read. There's so much stuff to listen to. But oftentimes, podcasts are a nice way to sort of digest and think through things when you're doing all the many things that you have to do in your life as a teacher. So this is our love of trying to take and encapsulate some of the great conversations that come out of this book and then connect them in ways that it may be a little bit more resonant for those of us who are so busy. to be able to engage with the book in a different way than just reading the text, right? So hopefully this podcast has been resonant with you too. Shari Kaku: I guess the power of a commute sometimes, right? On LA it'll be stuck in traffic, but how do we use that time? Theodore Chao: You Ha Shakiyya Bland: Come on. Sherry, I like that example because it connects to movement. Theodore Chao: You Yeah. Yeah. Shari Kaku: Yeah, that's true. Theodore Chao: my goodness. Okay. Well, I think that's a good reflection, y'all. Thanks for listening, everybody. Shakiyya Bland: Yeah. And please continue to engage. Re-listen to some of these episodes. Re-read the text. Sherri mentioned you don't have to read it in order. We didn't. Some of us didn't. Some of us re-read the entire book. So please continue to engage with this work, with community, with TOTOS community, as we continue to still grow and continue to build. So yeah, thank you, Teddy. Thank you, Sherri, for this opportunity to engage in. Theodore Chao: Yeah. Shari Kaku: you Thank you. Shakiyya Bland: conversation. I am still grown. Shari Kaku: Yeah, me too. Thank you. Theodore Chao: Thanks. Yeah, thank you, y'all. Okay, peace.