Nick: Hey Nick, if I say it's not that people are bad at their work, but they were never shown what good looks like, what do you think? I fully agree. ⁓ Today we will talk about the skills that actually nobody teaches you, but are expected by almost all companies that require hard skills. So ⁓ that's what we will talk about today in this podcast. Which is art, you would say. Mark: Hey Nick, if I say It's not that people are bad at their work, but they were never shown what good looks like. What do you think? I fully agree. ⁓ Today we will talk about the skills that actually nobody teaches you, but are expected by almost all companies that require hard skills. So ⁓ that's what we will talk about today in this podcast. Which is art, you would say. Nick: And that we all have, think, the same, and I mean, the both of us, but I mean, people in general have a similar idea of what a good employee is or what somebody who is good at ⁓ his or her job looks like. Which we also have to conclude that the skills that somebody owns or shows are hardly the skills that people are being taught within a company. Why do you think that is? Yeah. Mark: And that we all have, think, the same, and I mean, the both of us, but I mean, People in general have a similar idea of what a good employee is or what somebody who is good at ⁓ his or her job looks like. Which we also have to conclude that the skills that somebody owns or shows are hardly the skills that people are being taught within a company. Why do you think that is? Yeah. Nick: That's a good question. And that's a, it's also difficult to explain because it's sometimes, uh, uh, these are hard skills, but it's very intangible sort of to, uh, to capture. So, um, I always have to think about people that are that are very strong on the content. So they worked for a long time on a, on a nice project and, and, you know, all the content that they produce is, is, well, flawless, but then Mark: That's a good question. And that's a, it's also difficult to explain because it's sometimes, uh, uh, these are hard skills, but it's very intangible sort of to, uh, to capture. So, um, I always have to think about people that are, that are very strong on the content. So they worked for a long time on a, on a nice project and, and, you know, all the content that they produce is, is well flawless, but then Nick: ⁓ they lack the effectivity basically to ⁓ present it or to ⁓ enable the decisions that need to be taken afterwards. ⁓ So I've seen it numerous times that people use the right content, then in the wrong shape in the wrong, in the wrong shape. And ⁓ that is simply because these skills, how you build a storyline, how you ⁓ build effective PowerPoint slides, Mark: ⁓ they lack the effectivity basically to, ⁓ present it or to, ⁓ enable the decisions that need to be taken afterwards. ⁓ so I've seen it numerous times that people use the right content, then in the wrong shape in the wrong, in the wrong shape. And, ⁓ that is simply because these skills, how you build a storyline, how you, ⁓ build effective PowerPoint slides. Nick: how you enable decision-making in the most effective way. They have never been taught that. ⁓ But companies actually expect that. and especially large companies because these companies, are decisions need to be taken swiftly on a daily basis. So these are skills that are let you stand out early in your career and actually throughout your career, I would say. Yeah. And it's strange because Mark: how you enable decision-making in the most effective way. They have never been taught that. ⁓ But companies actually expect that and especially large companies because these companies, are decisions need to be taken swiftly on a daily basis. So these are skills that are let you stand out early in your career and actually throughout your career, I would say. Yeah. And it's strange because Nick: Welcome in our podcast. We started it. It's the first one in hopefully a row. Because we recorded some snippets earlier and then people asked us, okay, but where is the whole podcast? We didn't have it. So we decided to start one now. ⁓ But maybe this is a good moment to maybe go back on the moment that we decided to start Ace Masterclass, which, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Mark: Welcome in our podcast. We started it. It's the first one in hopefully a row. Because we recorded some snippets earlier and then people asked us, okay, but where is the whole podcast? We didn't have it. So we decided to start one now. ⁓ But maybe this is a good moment to maybe go back on the moment that we decided to start Ace Masterclass, which, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Nick: For me, that was the moment where we were working in a corporate ourselves in the financial sector and colleagues asked us to teach them on how to build a storyline deck, a good storyline in the deck, how to build slides that you don't have to spend all evenings, but do it quickly and swift. And we made a lightweight training of, think it was one or two hours in showing them the basic models. Mark: For me, that was the moment where we were working in a corporate ourselves in the financial sector. And colleagues asked us to teach them on how to build a storyline deck, a good storyline in the deck, how to build slides that you don't have to spend all evenings, but do it quickly and swift. And we made a lightweight training of, I think it was one or two hours, and showing them the basic models. Nick: And we were flooded by it. So people from the whole company, they heard about it and they wanted to teach it or learn it. Yeah, that's exactly what it is. And I think it's the skills that we applied and the models that we applied. People saw the effectiveness of these models. They wanted to learn about it. We set up a training in need of. ⁓ Mark: And we were flooded by it. So people from the whole company, they heard about it and they wanted to teach it or learn it. Yeah, that's exactly what it is. And I think it's the skills that we applied and the models that we applied. People saw the effectiveness of these models. They wanted to learn about it. We set up a training in need of. ⁓ Nick: Back then it was a one and a half or two hour training. It was very short and snappy, but indeed the numerous requests and next to our daily job. it was, it was almost impossible to do that. So yeah, I think it was clear that there was a demand for that for these types of skills. Which even today still surprises me because if you look at how much time we all spent on building documents for Mark: Back then it was a one and a half or two hour training. It was very short and snappy, but indeed the numerous requests and next to our daily job. it was, it was almost impossible to do that. So yeah, I think it was clear that there was a demand for that for these types of skills. Which even today still surprises me because if you look at how much time we all spent on building documents for Nick: numerous of meetings ⁓ and people discussing ⁓ all these documents, making decisions on them, making important decisions on them on all levels of the organization. Also the frustration that is there. So people who have to read the documents are annoyed that the documents are lengthy, excuse my words, are lengthy, are chaotic. With a lot of artistic freedom taken by the authors. A lot of words, but maybe. Mark: numerous of meetings ⁓ and people discussing ⁓ all these documents, making decisions on them, making important decisions on them on all levels of the organization. Also the frustration that is there. So people who have to read the documents are annoyed that the documents are lengthy, excuse my words, are lengthy, are chaotic. With a lot of artistic freedom taken by the authors. A lot of words, but maybe Nick: less clear on, so why do we have this document and what is the decision that is being asked at the moment? ⁓ So frustration on both sides, so not only the reader, but also the person that has to make the document and present it. And then we would be the first to build the training. Yeah, true. And of course, this type of training exists, but it exists within... Mark: less clear on, so why do we have this document and what is the decision that is being asked at the moment? ⁓ So frustration on both sides, so not only the reader, but also the person that has to make the document and present it. And then we would be the first to build the training. Yeah, true. And of course, this type of training exists, but it exists within... Nick: into within consultancy company. they, they, they train the, their new hires basically with these types of skills that makes sense. Because that is their, ⁓ their unique selling point, ⁓ these types of skills. But indeed, when you're simply working within a company, non consultancy company, then, still these types of skills are expected of you, but they've never been taught you and, Mark: into within consultancy company. they, they, They train the, their new hires basically with these type of skills that makes sense. Because that is their, ⁓ their unique selling point, ⁓ these type of skills. But indeed, when you're simply working within a company, non consultancy company, then, still these type of skills are expected of you, but they've never been taught you and, Nick: These companies actually don't have these type of trainings internally. So that's, think where the, where the gap is in, in, in, ⁓ yeah, the, lack of, ⁓ availability of this type of training for these type of skills actually. So they are there, but they're taught in different companies. Yeah. And not, not, not out there in the market, so to say. ⁓ So indeed the, the trainings are there. ⁓ I think the, models that we apply in, or that we teach in the, in the trainings are Mark: These companies actually don't have these type of trainings internally. So that's, think where the, where the gap is in, in, in, ⁓ yeah, the lack of ⁓ availability of this type of training for these type of skills actually. They are there, but they're taught in different companies. Yeah. And not, not, not out there in the market, so to say. ⁓ so indeed the, the trainings are there. And I think the, models that we apply in, or that we teach in the, in the trainings are. Nick: ⁓ it's not rocket science, but, and it's really models that have been, ⁓ yeah, they are proven by the, we haven't made them up. Exactly. We ha We are not telling something that we have invented or anything. No, we are simply, we simply grouped all the models that we found most effective throughout our careers. And, ⁓ that, that are simply applied by Mark: ⁓ it's not rocket science, but, and it's really models that have been, ⁓ yeah, they are proven by the, we haven't made them up. Exactly. We ha we, are not telling something that we have invented or anything. No, we are simply, we simply grouped all the models that we found most effective throughout our careers. And, ⁓ that, that are simply applied by, Nick: big consultancy firms. And so we sort of pull the curtain a bit away of ⁓ how you build effective storylines and documents. Yeah. And the thing is, consultancy firms, they know how important it is to make a clear definition of the problem, to have a clear path towards the end to the solution or your proposal to be able to Mark: big consultancy firms. And so we sort of pull the curtain a bit away of ⁓ how you build effective storylines and documents. Yeah. And the thing is, consultancy firms, they know how important it is to make a clear definition of the problem, to have a clear path towards the end to the solution or your proposal to be able to Nick: ⁓ collect and analyze and draw your conclusions from a big data set. And because they understand it and they understand how important it is and they teach their people in the first one, two, three years, tremendously on it. And that it's not that clear or it seems that maybe big corporates don't understand it that much, although you see a change there. ⁓ Mark: ⁓ collect and analyze and draw your conclusions from a big data set. And because they understand it and they understand how important it is and they teach their people in the first one, two, three years, tremendously on it. And that it's not that clear or it seems that maybe big corporates don't understand it that much, although you see a change there. ⁓ Nick: is that companies need to hire consultancy firms for a rather simple exercises. So structure this deck or help us to define this problem or help us to bring this to solution. Which I think if we talk to for ourselves, we also are being asked sometimes to step in where we don't bring anything on the content. We just bring the content together, structure it and make clear what the ask is. Mark: is that companies need to hire consultancy firms for a rather simple exercises. So structure this deck or help us to define this problem or help us to bring this to solution. Which I think if we talk to for ourselves, we also are being asked sometimes to step in where we don't bring anything on the content. We just bring the content together, structure it and make clear what the ask is. Nick: Yeah. And, and, ⁓ if you would ask me, I think that's the most important skill you could have a structure, ⁓ unstructured information. Simple as that. And, in, in whatever form, if it's communication or if it's, ⁓ structuring, ⁓ information, ⁓ talking about a big program or project or, ⁓ in any form, if you can bring structure, I think you can, ⁓ you can stand out quite easily because structure is not something everyone Mark: Yeah. And, and, ⁓ if you would ask me, I think that's the most important skill you could have a structure, ⁓ unstructured information. Simple as that. And, in, in whatever form, if it's communication or if it's, ⁓ structuring, ⁓ information, ⁓ talking about a big program or project or, ⁓ in any form, if you can bring structure, I think you can, ⁓ you can stand out quite easily because structure is not something everyone Nick: processes naturally. So you force yourself to bring it in. Exactly. A lot of people have to take a lot of effort to bring structure in. And also there's a lot of knowledge within the heads of people. So ⁓ there are a lot of experts or subject matter experts within companies that solely look at topics from their own perspective and in a sort of tunnel vision, is logical because they perspective exactly. That's their expertise. Mark: processes naturally. So you force yourself to bring it in. Exactly. A lot of people have to take a lot of effort to bring structure in. And also there's a lot of knowledge within the heads of people. So ⁓ there are a lot of experts or subject matter experts within companies that solely look at topics from their own perspective and in a sort of tunnel vision, is logical because they perspective exactly. That's their expertise. Nick: expertise, but if you can, if you have to the mechanisms that we teach in the trainings to combine all this information and then build a structured storyline or build a structured recommendation, then I think you can stand out quite easily within, within companies internally. And that's maybe also why the tagline of ACEs, we want to bring consultancy back to organizations. So indeed, as you mentioned, Mark: expertise, but if you can, if you have to the mechanisms that we teach in the trainings to combine all this information and then build a structured storyline or build a structured recommendation, then I think you can stand out quite easily within, within companies internally. And that's maybe also why the tagline of ACEs, we want to bring consultancy back to organizations. So indeed, as you mentioned, Nick: people hire consultancy firms for rather easy tasks sometimes, and you pay a lot of money for it. the most easy money to save is almost to train your people with these type of skills so that they can build a document themselves. What is that one maybe model or skill or tip that's, of course it's in our training, but that's... Mark: people hire consultancy firms for rather easy tasks sometimes, and you pay a lot of money for it. The most easy money to save is almost to train your people with these type of skills so that they can build a document themselves. What is that one maybe model or skill or tip that's, of course it's in our training, but that's... Nick: that really made the difference for you. if you know that, then it makes a day and night difference in how you build up your deck. Yeah. I think you will hear me say this more often, but the SCQ is for me the most important model. Still? Yeah. I apply this on a daily basis. And why? Because... Mark: that really made the difference for you. if you know that, then it makes a day and night difference in how you build up your deck. Yeah. I think you will hear me say this more often, but the SCQ is for me the most important model. Still? Yeah. I apply this on a daily basis. And why? Because... Nick: SCQ is not only a model. It seems at first, it seems simple. It's only one page with, you know, three gray boxes, the S, the C and the Q. Almost too simple. Almost too simple. And for people that listen to this podcast for the first time, don't know the SCQ. It stands for situation, complication and key questions. And ⁓ please take a look at the other Instagram posts to understand what the SCQ then can do for you. Mark: SCQ is not only a model. It seems at first, it seems simple. It's only one page with, you know, three gray boxes, the S, the C and the Q. Almost too simple. Almost too simple. And for people that listen to this podcast for the first time, don't know the SCQ. It stands for situation, complication and key questions. And ⁓ please take a look at the other Instagram posts to understand what the SCQ then can do for you. Nick: What it is, so it's not only the, it's not only a single slide with three gray boxes. No, it can actually help you in your stakeholder management. It can help you in structuring ⁓ the opening of a meeting. It can help you in structuring your emails. It can help you with basically any form of structured communication. And that, that is why I think this model is so it's simple, but it's also very effective and the most important one to use a master. But you would say. Mark: What it is, so it's not only the, it's not only a single slide with three gray boxes. No, it can actually help you in your stakeholder management. It can help you in structuring ⁓ the opening of a meeting. It can help you in structuring your emails. It can help you with basically any form of structured communication. And that, that is why I think this model is so it's simple, but it's also very effective and the most important one to use a master. But you would say. Nick: people at the table know what the situation is. They know why they are there and what the problem is that they have to tackle. Exactly. They know what the answer is that they have to, the question they have to answer. So why you spending a separate slide on it? Indeed, they know what the situation is. So that is the whole purpose of the situation. that's facts that people should recognize. So it's basically a method to get people. Mark: people at the table know what the situation is. They know why they are there and what the problem is that they have to tackle. Exactly. They know what the answer is that they have to, the question they have to answer. So why you spending a separate slide on it? Indeed, they know what the situation is. So that is the whole purpose of the situation. that's facts that people should recognize. So it's basically a method to get people Nick: to have everyone on the same page. The facts are indisputable. Everyone should recognize it. So for example, we are here within company X department Y and it consists of 200 employees with this amount of budget that should be known to anyone. Well, that's an assumption already. it's stating the obvious. So don't you bore them and you lose attention? Mark: to have everyone on the same page. The facts are indisputable. Everyone should recognize it. So for example, we are here within company X department Y and it consists of 200 employees with this amount of budget that should be known to anyone. Well, that's an assumption already. it's stating the obvious. So don't you bore them and you lose attention? Nick: Um, rather the opposite. It's not, uh, you're not boring them. Uh, as you can hear, I already made an assumption that they know what the budget is, but that often is not the case that everyone knows what it is. So it's, it's a need stating the facts, but to get everyone on the same base to say, okay, this is, this is currently the status quo. So you also say these are facts that sometimes people don't dare to ask anymore. Mark: Um, rather the opposite. It's not, uh, you're not boring them. Uh, as you can hear, I already made an assumption that they know what the budget is, but that often is not the case that everyone knows what it is. So it's, it's a need stating the facts, but to get everyone on the same base to say, okay, this is, this is currently the status quo. So you also say these are facts that sometimes people don't dare to ask anymore. Nick: Cause they assumed that they should have know it. Yeah, exactly. So, and, and, and in the situation you can already sort of funnel, ⁓ elements. you start very broad. is company X as I mentioned, and then go deeper and deeper and deeper, ⁓ within a few bullets to, to dive into the specific team or department that you're going to talk about or the system or whatever, what the topic will be. But, ⁓ Mark: Cause they assumed that they should have know it. Yeah, exactly. So, and, and, and in the situation you can already sort of funnel, ⁓ elements. you start very broad. is company X as I mentioned, and then go deeper and deeper and deeper, ⁓ within a few bullets to, to dive into the specific team or department that you're going to talk about or the system or whatever, what the topic will be. But, ⁓ Nick: It's a sort of funnel where you pull in your readers or you pull in the audience. And the complication, because you would say everybody agrees on the problem. ⁓ Well, I think it's quite the opposite actually. So, and that's why the SCQ in itself is such an effective model because you can use it in this, when it comes to the complication and questions, you can use it for your stakeholder management, but also to Mark: It's a sort of funnel where you pull in your readers or you pull in the audience. And the complication, because you would say everybody agrees on the problem. ⁓ Well, I think it's quite the opposite actually. So, and that's why the SCQ in itself is such an effective model because you can use it in this, when it comes to the complication and questions, you can use it for your stakeholder management, but also to... Nick: sharpen the scope, for example, the assignment. So the C is the burning platform. What is the problem or what needs to be tackled, what needs to be solved. So the people, they even have a discussion about what the actual problem is. Because they also mingle or mix solutions. I think everyone who listens to this podcast, I think everyone will recognize that. Mark: sharpen the scope, for example, the assignment. So the C is the burning platform. What is the problem or what needs to be tackled, what needs to be solved. So the people, they even have a discussion about what the actual problem is. Because they also mingle or mix solutions. think everyone who listens to this podcast, I think everyone will recognize that. Nick: Often you get a problem thrown at you, which is eventually not the actual problem, you know, but it's the perceived problem of the person that is handing out the assignment. Or it's already the solution. Exactly. So what you need to do is you need to sharpen the problem to actually be able to solve it eventually. Otherwise you're running in the wrong direction right from the start. And consultants understand it really well. Exactly. And consultants understand it really well. And that's why the SCQ is such a powerful model because then Mark: Often you get a problem thrown at you, which is eventually not the actual problem, you know, but it's the perceived problem of the person that is handing out the assignment. Or it's already the solution. Exactly. So what you need to do is you need to sharpen the problem to actually be able to solve it eventually. Otherwise you're running in the wrong direction right from the start. And consultants understand it really well. Exactly. And consultants understand it really well. And that's why the SCQ is such a powerful model because then Nick: ⁓ by, only writing it down, ⁓ the, the, perception that you have or the understanding of the problem that you have in the beginning, then giving it back, feeding it back to stakeholders, to people that you're going to interview and so on. All the people that, ⁓ that you're going to talk to, you feed the SCQ, ⁓ your first version, and then you will receive feedback immediately. And they will say, yeah, but this is not the problem or you need to sharpen it here or can you add this or can you add that? And then. Mark: ⁓ by, only writing it down, ⁓ the, the, perception that you have or the understanding of the problem that you have in the beginning, then giving it back, feeding it back to stakeholders, to people that you're going to interview and so on. All the people that, ⁓ that you're going to talk to, you feed the SCQ, ⁓ your first version, and then you will receive feedback immediately. And they will say, yeah, but this is not the problem or you need to sharpen it here or can you add this or can you add that? And then Nick: it comes to you, it's up to you to then show some flexibility and iterate on the sec. So you're not married to it. You need to be flexible and, ⁓ and at, but I also say the first version can be wrong or it can be rough. ⁓ even I don't, I think the first version is never the final version. that's, ⁓ that's a going in position. So, yeah, it's, it's, it's not, ⁓ Mark: it comes to you, it's up to you to then show some flexibility and iterate on the SCQ So you're not married to it. You need to be flexible and, ⁓ and at, but I also say the first version can be wrong or it can be rough. ⁓ even I don't, I think the first version is never the final version. that's, ⁓ that's a going in position. So, yeah, it's, it's, it's not, ⁓ Nick: As I mentioned, I'm not married to the SCQ, but I'm not married to the content of the first SCQ. That will be flexible. I will be flexible to adjust that and apply the right feedback and iterate on it. then, so you have to see, which is then the complication, then you have to queue, of course, the... Mark: As I mentioned, I'm not married to the SCQ, but I'm not married to the content of the first SCQ. That will be flexible. I will be flexible to adjust that and apply the right feedback and iterate on it. then, so you have to see, which is then the complication, then you have to queue, of course, the... Nick: the question and there are various versions of the SCQ. You can also skip the queue by going for SCA. So the answer immediately, but I always like to add the queue before giving the real answer because- Which will be on the next page. Exactly. So the answer will be on the, or the conclusion will be on the next page, but the Q also helps still to frame a bit towards the answer or the recommendation that you're going to give. Mark: the question and there are various versions of the SCQ. You can also skip the Q by going for SCA. So the answer immediately, but I always like to add the Q before giving the real answer because- Which will be on the next page. Exactly. So the answer will be on the, or the conclusion will be on the next page, but the queue also helps still to frame a bit towards the answer or the recommendation that you're going to give. Nick: ⁓ Otherwise it's immediately an answer after the complication, whereas, ⁓ by framing the Q can also scope still the problem of it. ⁓ and it helps you. So this whole model it's, it's maybe, ⁓ how do you say that you're playing a bit with, with, with the reader, so to say, because it's a model that pulls in the reader in a sort of yes motor from the facts in the S. Mark: ⁓ Otherwise it's immediately an answer after the complication, whereas, ⁓ by framing the Q can also scope still the problem of it. ⁓ and it helps you. So this whole model it's, it's maybe, ⁓ how do you say that you're playing a bit with, with, with the reader, so to say, because it's a model that pulls in the reader in a sort of yes motor from the facts in the S. Nick: The burning platform that has been discussed along the way and iterated on. And then the Q everyone should sort of recognize it. And then comes the recommendation and the answer that ⁓ should flow naturally from the whole SCQ. So, yeah, well, if you don't use the SCQ, people tend to just drop the conclusion or the advice and assume shared context, understanding of the problem. Yeah, exactly. agree on the question. Mark: the burning platform that has been discussed along the way and iterated on. And then the queue, everyone should sort of recognize it. And then comes the recommendation and the answer that ⁓ should flow naturally from the whole SCQ. So, yeah, well, if you don't use the SCQ, people tend to just drop the conclusion or the advice and assume shared context, understanding of the problem. Yeah, exactly. agree on the question. Nick: Maybe someone can think now, okay, okay, nice, but yeah. So what, but, ⁓ you know, I dare to open a document of, of a colleague that has worked on six months for, yeah, for, on a project and then start, ⁓ start plowing through the context already. then, okay, start reading. Okay. What is requested here? What, Mark: Maybe someone can think now, okay, okay, nice, but yeah. So what, but, ⁓ you know, I dare to open a document of, of a colleague that has worked on six months for, yeah, for, on a project and then start, ⁓ start plowing through the context already. then, okay, start reading. Okay. What is requested here? What, Nick: what are we looking for? And then you will see that the context often is already five pages, six pages, and what are we working towards? It's only, and that is what we are getting rid of with this model. Yeah, I recognize the SCQ, how powerful it is. For me, one of the things that really made a difference is how you look at your taglines. Yeah. So let's say that most of time it's a title, people put a title on top of their slides. Mark: what are we looking for? And then you will see that the context often is already five pages, six pages, and what are we working towards? It's only, and that is what we are getting rid of with this model. Yeah, I recognize the SCQ, how powerful it is. For me, one of the things that really made a difference is how you look at your taglines. Yeah. So let's say that most of time it's a title, people put a title on top of their slides. Nick: which is often just explaining the graph I'm looking at. So the balance between male and female within company X, which is the title of a graph, but it's not the conclusion of your slide, which should be the tagline. Once I learned that tagline is the conclusion of your slide, so I'm trying to tell you something, this is what you need to know and the slide proves it. That made my life so much easier because you... Mark: which is often just explaining the graph I'm looking at. So the balance between male and female within company X, which is the title of a graph, but it's not the conclusion of your slide, which should be the tagline. Once I learned that tagline is the conclusion of your slide, so I'm trying to tell you something, this is what you need to know and the slide proves it. That made my life so much easier because you... Nick: it's easier to determine why the slide is in there, where it is in the storyline, and what data I need to look for. And before I was just starting with a slide which I felt could be important, but I had to redo it numerous times, it was not the right slide or not the right data point in there. So for me, the tagline really made the difference. And what is the tagline? What is it literally? Mark: it's easier to determine why the slide is in there, where it is in the storyline, and what data I need to look for. And before I was just starting with a slide which I felt could be important, but I had to redo it numerous times, it was not the right slide or not the right data point in there. So for me, the tagline really made the difference. And what is the tagline? What is it literally? Nick: Yeah, it's the conclusion of your slide. where do you position it? How do you? Yeah, it's on top. if you have a slide, there's always, it shows text, shows a graph, it shows maybe a model. And people always put like in a header font, a sentence at top of the slide. But instead of just saying what the slide shows, you write the conclusion of what the slide shows. Mark: Yeah, it's the conclusion of your slide. Where do you position it? How do you? Yeah, it's on top. if you have a slide, there's always, it shows text, shows a graph, it shows maybe a model. And people always put like in a header font, a sentence at top of the slide. But instead of just saying what the slide shows, you write the conclusion of what the slide shows. Nick: ⁓ which activates also the reader because if somebody reads it, they have to think, do I draw the same conclusions? Do I agree with the hypothesis which is in there or the conclusion that is being drawn? ⁓ And if you agree, if you have a good slide, your slide shows your conclusion. And any other tips and tricks for writing the tagline? Mark: ⁓ which activates also the reader because if somebody reads it, they have to think, do I draw the same conclusions? Do I agree with the hypothesis which is in there or the conclusion that is being drawn? ⁓ And if you agree, if you have a good slide, your slide shows your conclusion. And any other tips and tricks for writing the tagline? Nick: Yeah, for me, ⁓ like in, think when I was younger, I tend to write it as an open advice. So I draw the conclusion. I would draw the conclusion, but then I would say, yeah, and then there are options or you should can look at it. Well, at the moment, after years of spending hours and hours on PowerPoint slides, ⁓ I make it way more directive. Mark: Yeah, for me, ⁓ like in, think when I was younger, I tend to write it as an open advice. So I draw the conclusion. I would draw the conclusion, but then I would say, yeah, and then there are options or you should can look at it. Well, at the moment, after years of spending hours and hours on PowerPoint slides, ⁓ I make it way more directive. Nick: So there's a conclusion and there's a small advice in it drawn from that slide. So I'm not sure how to say it in proper English, but in Dutch we say doel doordoen. So you say, you try to achieve something by the means of something. So if you look at your tagline, often it says align A, B, and C. Mark: So there's a conclusion and there's a small advice in it drawn from that slide. So I'm not sure how to say it in proper English, but in Dutch we say doel doordoen. So you say, you try to achieve something by the means of something. So if you look at your tagline, often it says align A, B and C. Nick: ⁓ to make people happier. It's a lousy tagline, but then the means are you do ABC and the goal is to make people happier. And if you look at your tagline like that and you write it as an active directive tagline, ⁓ because it's a concrete advice, you say, do this to achieve that. ⁓ It does something at the reader side. Mark: ⁓ to make people happier. It's a lousy tagline, but then the means are you do ABC and the goal is to make people happier. And if you look at your tagline like that and you write it as an active directive tagline, ⁓ because it's a concrete advice, you say, do this to achieve that. ⁓ It does something at the reader side. Nick: And it also does something at my side because if I have to write it like that, I have to be certain about my cause, about my case. And so the more directive, the more advice I gave, the more I will sit on the chair of giving advice. Sure. have to be about the first word. Yeah. That's the active word. So do this, align that, bring people here, ⁓ intervene there. Mark: And it also does something at my side because if I have to write it like that, I have to be certain about my cause, about my case. And so the more directive, the more advice I gave, the more I will sit on the chair of giving advice. Sure. have to be about the first word. Yeah. That's the active word. So do this, align that, bring people here, ⁓ intervene there. Nick: which is that concrete advice. Also to prevent that the slides are being too vague and you need four or five slides just to say nothing. And let's say you have 20 slides and you have 20 taglines. I think you have your management summary. okay. No, but it's a good point. it's always a check that if you have your, you put all your tagline next to each other. So in a, maybe in a different session of our podcast, we will. Mark: which is that concrete advice. Also to prevent that the slides are being too vague and you need four or five slides just to say nothing. And let's say you have 20 slides and you have 20 taglines. I think you have your management summary. okay. No, but it's a good point. it's always a check that if you have your, you put all your tagline next to each other. So in a, maybe in a different session of our podcast, we will Nick: Maybe dive a bit deeper in the storyline and how you build it up. But if you put your taglines next to each other, it's almost magic. You will have your storyline. And if that doesn't flow right, or there's a strange hiccup, then your slides not working. And it doesn't have to be a whole, let's say polished management summary. But if you roughly look at, okay, what is my advice? Which points do I bring forward? Does that have a logic order, logical order? And does it bring me... Mark: maybe dive a bit deeper in the storyline and how you build it up. But if you put your taglines next to each other, it's almost magic. You will have your storyline. And if that doesn't flow right, or there's a strange hiccup, then your slides not working. And it doesn't have to be a whole, let's say polished management summary. But if you roughly look at, okay, what is my advice? Which points do I bring forward? Does that have a logic order, logical order? And does it bring me... Nick: to the right place where I want that person or that team that needs to make a decision to be at, then the structure of your dick is okay. And you will often notice that you don't need 50 slides to get there. No story that will keep the attention of the reader has 50 slides. So, and I know we always try to achieve 10 max, 10, maybe 15 if it's a And then draw the line of the appendix. Mark: to the right place where I want that person or that team that needs to make a decision to be at, then the structure of your deck is okay. And you will often notice that you don't need 50 slides to get there. No story that will keep the attention of the reader has 50 slides. So, and I know we always try to achieve 10 max, 10, maybe 15 if it's a And then draw the line of the appendix. Nick: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And maybe another, another skill I find, I find effective is the, the, the storyboarding process, actually how you, how you do that is one of the most powerful skills that helps you in actually structuring your document is of course you can, everyone starts to Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And maybe another, another skill I find, I find effective is the, the, the storyboarding process, actually, how you, how you do that is one of the most powerful skills that helps you in actually structuring your document is of course you can, everyone starts to Nick: build slides in PowerPoint on your computer. And then after the first two, well, you still have structure, but once you come to six, seven, eight, then it becomes already a bit more diffuse what the storyline still is. And then start working on it with five other teammates. And I assure you the storyline will be gone in only a few days. Mark: build slides in PowerPoint on your computer. And then after the first two, well, you still have structure, but once you come to six, seven, eight, then it becomes already a bit more diffuse what the storyline still is. And then start working on it with five other teammates. And I assure you the storyline will be gone in only a few days. Nick: An effective method is then to actually print the document, which is not the most sustainable. Indeed. Not the most sustainable. In this case, the goal justifies the means. Mark: An effective method is then to actually print the document, which is not the most sustainable. Indeed. Not the most sustainable. In this case, the goal justifies the means. Nick: So ⁓ you print all the pages one single sided on a four paper and you hang them on the wall in the form or in the order that you printed the document. And then you pull in a colleague that actually has no clue about the topic and preferably no clue. So a blank sheet is in that sense, the best. then you talk people through the storyline and then naturally they will... Mark: So ⁓ you print all the pages one single sided on A4 paper and you hang them on the wall in the form or in the order that you printed the document. And then you pull in a colleague that actually has no clue about the topic and preferably no clue. So a blank sheet is in that sense the best. And then you talk people through the storyline and then naturally they will start giving you feedback. They won't. Cause they don't know anything about it. don't know anything. So it challenges you to actually write down the story or tell the story in the most simple and concise manner. And that is the way that you eventually tell that story. That's the way you should write it down on paper because once you're in a topic, it's very ⁓ easy to... Nick: start giving you feedback. They won't. they don't know anything about it. don't know anything. So it challenges you to actually write down the story or tell the story in the most simple and concise manner. And that is the way that you eventually tell that story. That's the way you should write it down on paper because once you're in a topic, it's, it's very ⁓ easy to a big pitfall is to step into, you know, abbreviation jargon Mark: A big pitfall is to step into, you know, abbreviation, jargon, and so on. So, but that's something you should actually avoid. And this is a matter to. And why not using AI for this? That could be your colleague. Absolutely. Yeah, you can, you can definitely use, you can of course use AI. So, ⁓ but in a physical session that becomes difficult. ⁓ Nick: and so on. but that's something you should actually avoid. And this is a matter to... And why not using AI for this? That could be your colleague. Absolutely. Yeah, can definitely use, you can of course use AI. So, ⁓ but in a physical session, that becomes difficult. ⁓ Maybe, maybe there's software already available. You won't need a physical session. would just. No, no, no. Then you don't need the physical session. No, you can of course use AI to, to help you with your storyline. But I think that ⁓ at this point in time, there are still craft in ⁓ determining a storyline and determining what the dynamics are, how the stakeholders feel, what, you know, the, the, ⁓ what they expect. And of course you can, this, you can all of this feed into AI and Mark: Maybe, maybe there's software already available. You won't need a physical session. No, no, no. Then you don't need the physical session. No, you can of course use AI to, to help you with your storyline. But I think that ⁓ at this point in time, there are still craft in ⁓ determining a storyline and determining what the dynamics are, how the stakeholders feel, what, you know, the, the, ⁓ what they expect. And of course you can, this, you can all of this feed into AI and. Nick: it will give you back what it's trained on, but. Maybe less pointed to the organization you're in. So AI is very sophisticated in providing output and providing information, but in being dynamic in such an environment, I think it's still a bit behind. I think for actually Mark: it will give you back what it's trained on, but. Maybe less pointed to the organization you're in. So AI is very sophisticated in providing output and providing information, but in being dynamic in such an environment, I think it's still a bit behind. So I think for actually Nick: setting up the storyline, being able to adjust it, iterate on that, feel the dynamics and so on. I think that's still at this point in time, at least human work. Yeah, and I have the same with the tagline, because I would expect that a model which is trained by so many documents and so many ⁓ information would easily write the taglines for my storyline. And although it can help to set up slides, so sometimes I use it to get inspired. So sometimes you're a bit stuck in. Mark: setting up the storyline, being able to adjust it, iterate on that, feel the dynamics and so on. I think that's still at this point in time, at least human work. Yeah, and I have the same with the tagline, because I would expect that a model which is trained by so many documents and so many ⁓ information would easily write the taglines for my storyline. And although it can help to set up slides, so sometimes I use it to get inspired. So sometimes you're a bit stuck in. Nick: okay, how I'm gonna visualize this and then I ask Copilot or a different tool to, or a gamma is one of them, to just come up with an idea. But then I have to still iterate a few times on it. But if I ask to write the tagline or taglines, they're always so, so worse as a flat. They don't trigger. Hollow terms. Hollow terms. If it can. Mark: okay, how I'm gonna visualize this and then I ask Copilot or a different tool to, or a gamma is one of them, to just come up with an idea. But then I have to still iterate a few times on it. But if I ask to write the tagline or taglines, they're always so, so worse as a flat. They don't trigger. Hollow terms. Hollow terms. If it can. Nick: Yeah, if models can tackle that, I think everybody's job would be a bit easier because it would help you to make it a really sharp document. yeah, too early, I think. Yeah, and I mean, I'm not critical of AI at all. I'm ⁓ in big favor of AI. But I think that the lagmoose proof at this point in time is still... Mark: Yeah, if models can tackle that, I think everybody's job would be a bit easier because it would help you to make it a really sharp document. But yeah, too early, think. Yeah, and I mean, I'm not critical of AI at all. I'm ⁓ in big favor of AI. But I think that the luck moves proof at this point in time is still... ⁓ Nick: would I let AI build my document and then without looking at it, sending it into a management team or two and the answer is definitely not. ⁓ and especially because I need to be able to answer all the questions that come in and I need to be able to justify the numbers, especially maybe when it's only qualitative research, maybe you can approach it in a way still, but if it comes to quantification and that... Mark: would I let AI build my document and then without looking at it, sending it into a management team or two and the answer is definitely not. ⁓ and especially because I need to be able to answer all the questions that come in and I need to be able to justify the numbers, especially maybe when it's only qualitative research, maybe you can approach it in a way still, but if it comes to quantification and that... Nick: Yeah, then definitely not. So ⁓ it's too soon, but I'm definitely not saying that it cannot be done in the future. Yeah, interesting. And we follow those developments also. Absolutely. Closely. Because we're running out of time, but I still want to touch maybe one topic. And maybe I can ask it as a question to you. Mark: Yeah, then definitely not. So ⁓ it's too soon, but I'm definitely not saying that it cannot be done in the future. Yeah, interesting. And we follow those developments also. Absolutely. Closely. Because we're running out of time, but I still want to touch maybe one topic. And ⁓ maybe I can ask it as a question to you. Nick: We provide this training. that's, try to learn hard skills, half a day, really limit to the knowledge you have to know, cut away all the fluff. And then in the morning, we teach people how to build a storyline, how to build a SCQ, how to save time in building slides. What is that one observation or one sentence you always hear when people, before they step in and after they step out? Mark: We provide this training. That's, we try to learn hard skills, half a day, really limit to the knowledge you have to know, cut away all the fluff. And then in the morning, we teach people how to build a storyline, how to build an SCQ, how to save time in building slides. What is that one observation or one sentence you always hear when people, before they step in and after they step out? Nick: I wish I would have known this early in my career. And then no matter if they're 20 years experience or two months. After the coma, say that would have saved me so much. I could spend more time with my children. All those weekends spending on building slides. That nobody would read. It doesn't have the right structure. That end up in the appendix. But all getting assigned. Mark: I wish I would have known this early in my career. And then no matter if they're 20 years experience or two months. After the coma, say that would have saved me so much. I could spend more time with my children. All those weekends spending on building slides. Nobody would read. It doesn't have the right structure. That ended up in the appendix. But all getting inside. the most heard sentence from these people. And that links back to why we started this company. So the hard skills that everyone expects but nobody ⁓ has been taught. ⁓ Which are only a handful. So if you dive into it, it's only a handful of models that help you to really improve your deck. We teach them in the morning. Nick: the most heard sentence from these people. And that links back to why we started this company. So the hard skills that everyone expects but nobody has been taught. ⁓ Which are only a handful. So if you dive into it, it's only a handful of models that help you to really improve your deck. We teach them in the morning. Of course, it's easy to learn hard to master. The models are not that complex. ⁓ They're easy to understand, but to apply them in a daily basis that asks for some discipline. And that's also why we can do it in half a day. Of course, there are many more models out there that you can apply and we're definitely not saying that you shouldn't. But the most effective ones we have at least grouped and we are talking about so that the next time that you need a starting point. Mark: Of course, it's easy to learn hard to master. The models are not that complex. ⁓ They're easy to understand, but to apply them in a daily basis that asks for some discipline. And that's also why we can do it in half a day. Of course, there are many more models out there that you can apply and we're definitely not saying that you shouldn't, but the most effective ones we have at least grouped and we are talking about so that the next time that you need a starting point, Nick: you will have one and that is, think the whole purpose. And then we also realize, as you already mentioned, it's maybe easy to learn how to master. And so we fully recognize that after four hours, it's almost impossible to master these type of because you need to make your hours by building SCQs and storylines. But what we always offer is that after ⁓ the... Mark: you will have one and that is, think the whole purpose. And then we also realize, as you already mentioned, it's maybe easy to learn how to master. And so we fully recognize that after four hours, it's almost impossible to master these type of skills because you need to make your hours by building SCQs and storylines. But what we always offer is that after ⁓ the... Nick: After you attended the training, can, yeah, after that, can always give us a call, an email, send an email so that we can set up a 30 minute session or an hour or whatever is needed so that we can help you with your specific problems, with your specific business context. Because eventually that's what we like and where we get the energy from. So solving these problems. How we like to be taught it. Mark: After you attended the training, can, yeah, after that, can always give us a call, an email, send an email so that we can set up a 30 minute session or an hour or whatever is needed so that we can help you with your specific problems, with your specific business context. Because eventually that's what we like and where we get the energy from. So solving these problems. we like to be taught it. Nick: Also, yeah, exactly. No lengthy days. No. Yeah. I've been in so many trainings of multiple days. Obligatory lunches with people you don't know and don't want to talk to. And then after a few days you think, okay, and now nice to know, but how am I going to apply this? ⁓ Mark: Also, yeah, exactly. No lengthy days. No. Yeah. I've been in so many trainings of multiple days, obligatory lunches with people you don't know and don't want to talk to. And then after a few days you think, okay, and now nice to know, but how far from my day to day work I am going to apply this. ⁓ Nick: And that's exactly what we try to avoid and try to do differently. Yeah. Yeah. So also maybe to bring it to a conclusion as well, we're still surprised about that there are skills and we call them hard skills, but that companies expect people to have, which has so massive impact on decision-making day-to-day decision-making, which are hardly being taught. Yeah. There are all this whole Mark: And that's exactly what we try to avoid and try to do differently. Yeah. Yeah. So also maybe to bring it to a conclusion as well, we're still surprised about that there are skills and we call them hard skills, but that companies expect people to have, which has so massive impact on decision-making day-to-day decision-making, which are hardly being taught. Yeah. There are all this whole Nick: catalog of soft skills and or hard skills, then really too small or too narrow perspective. So you can learn PowerPoint and you can learn Excel, but how to build a business case in Excel or how to build a good storyline in PowerPoint. nobody tells you. No, and maybe then, because maybe people are now wondering, okay, what type of trainings do you then offer? So we already talked a bit in this, this podcast about Mark: catalog of soft skills and or hard skills, then really too small or too narrow perspective. So you can learn PowerPoint and you can learn Excel, but how to build a business case in Excel or how to build a good storyline in PowerPoint. nobody tells you. No, and maybe then, because maybe people are now wondering, okay, what type of trainings do you then offer? So we already talked a bit in this, this podcast about Nick: what we call the, we call it build slides like pros where we teach you about a storyline, how to build slides, how to solve problems. So that is one of the trainings, but we also, we have set up an AI training where you can actually learn how to set up a full automation from A to Z. ⁓ Mark: what we call the, we call it build slides like pros where we teach you about a storyline, how to build slides, how to solve problems. So that is one of the trainings, but we also, we have set up an AI training where you can actually learn how to set up a full automation from A to Z. ⁓ Nick: build your own automated podcast based on the content that you would like. So I think that's a very nice angle that we take. You have to listen to us, but you can listen to my story. Exactly. To something that you really like. And of course we offer trainings that a training that teaches you how to apply Excel in the most effective way. And of course there a lot of Excel trainings out there that you can follow, but ⁓ Mark: build your own automated podcast based on the content that you would like. So I think that's a very nice angle that we take. You have to listen to us, but you can listen to my story. Exactly. To something that you really like. And of course we offer trainings that a training that teaches you how to apply Excel in the most effective way. And of course there a lot of Excel trainings out there that you can follow, but ⁓ Nick: What we try is really apply it to a business context, to your business context so that you can actually work with it right after you leave the training and go back to your desk. We have trainings on effective program management, ⁓ effective PMO work is actually one of the trainings that nobody teaches you, but early in your career, you're always hired as a PMO. ⁓ Mark: What we try is really apply it to a business context, to your business context so that you can actually work with it right after you leave the training and go back to your desk. We have trainings on effective program management, ⁓ effective PMO work is actually one of the trainings that nobody teaches you, but early in your career, you're always hired as a PMO. ⁓ Nick: Exactly. So ⁓ that's one of the trainings. And then I think the final one is the business case that we also have. business cases. same. It's always part of a document. People want to know the financial implications, but nobody teaches you how to properly build one. So people tend also to work around it. Exactly. Okay. It's a financing. Yeah, yeah, indeed. So that is our current portfolio. Yeah. Mark: Exactly. So ⁓ that's one of the trainings. And then I think the final one is the business case that we also have. business cases. same. It's always part of a document. People want to know the financial implications, but nobody teaches you how to properly build one. So people tend also to work around it. Okay. It's a financing. Yeah, indeed. So that is our current portfolio. Yeah. Nick: Okay, well, for people something to look into. Thanks and well, see you next time. See you next time. Mark: Okay, well, for people something to look into. Thanks and well, see you next time. See you next time.