Louis: when they say let's take the emotion out of the decision, that's even an emotional decision. To you can't you can't take emotion out. Not Not without drugs or surgery, right? I mean we're we're emotional beings. We're wired that way. And understanding that the impact of those emotions are in play. We saw that during COVID, my friend. We've seen it in any kind of disaster or any kind of thing that somebody's had to recover from. You know, it's it's the emotional journey that people struggle with. James: Hello and welcome to Disengaged. Gallup's latest figures put global engagement at twenty percent. Many leaders respond to those results with surveys, with programs, with policies. And then make the decisions that shape people's lives behind their backs, hiding behind the phrase, it's just business, it's not personal. My guest today, Louis Roden, argues that it's that line that drives disengagement. People bring their whole selves to work, and when leaders pretend otherwise. Trust erodes and commitment falls. We cannot build an engaged workforce when we treat the relationship between people as transactional. Louis Roden founded the Inspire Consulting Group in 2008. Has spent more than two decades in organizational development and service culture. Across hospitality, logistics and finance. And he is the author of Everything Is Personal: Embracing Stewardship in the Workplace and in Every Place. We talk about why he sighs when he hears the phrase It's business, it's not personal. What stewardship means. How leaders build trust in practice. and the Princess Bride. As always, if you enjoy the show, please follow so you hear about the latest episodes. Please give it a rating on whatever platform you are listening, and finally please tell a friend. It seems like such a small thing, but it is just about the best way to spread the word. So without further ado, I give you Louis Roden, founder of Inspire Consulting Group and author of Everything Is Personal. Louis Roden, welcome to Disengaged. Louis: Thank you, James. Happy to be here. James: great to have you here because we well, I was introduced to you by our mutual friend Kat Carlo, who very kindly sent me a copy of your book here. So Louis: Correct? Lovely? James: if you're looking at the video, here it is. Everything Is Personal. It's an excellent book by the way, so we're gonna get into some of that. Louis: Thank you, James. James: just to kick things off, why did you write it? Louis: You know, James, you know, for years, like a lot of authors, it it it it took years. W the the the the completed product only took about five or six months. But the lingering thing of everybody often saying, You should write a book, you should write a book and I was I began to keep notes, right? And and I began to write down thoughts and paragraphs. And a lot of it had a lot to do with the content when I would do a keynote or I would do a facilitation program for an operation somewhere around the world. I had all those notes, all those thoughts, all those ideas in one spot. And I always thought I had to put those together in a linear fashion in order to develop and do a book. And then I quickly learned, once I had an editor, that I didn't need to do that, right? That you had to kind of put it all in one place. And as I was transitioning to doing more keynotes for organizations, they would inevitably ask if I had a book. And could I give a book out? And I always said no and gave somebody else's book out. Gave out, you know, a Simon Sinek book or this book or that. I'm like, look, damn it, I want to give out my book. So COVID gave a lot of us an opportunity to get introverted and finally get nudged to finish the book, right? And and my my wife's the one that pushed me to say, look, now's your chance. Now that we're in COVID, now that you've got time on your hands, because of course all my live work evaporated, why don't you finish up the book? And that's when I got it done. And I kept it succinct and on point on a single message. And then after putting it together for years and or a a a couple of years at least, then it came together relatively quickly. So James: I'm jealous of your editor. My wife's my editor, but she's getting a bit sick of editing my work, it's so I I fan whenever I get a book, I pick it up and I just leave through it just to kind of see a few points in it, and I found myself just nodding along with so many of the points you've made. I'm gonna use my journey through the book to ask you some questions about it as we go through this discussion. Starting with Louis: Okay. James: This wonderful quote that I'd never heard before by Mark Twain that you open the book with Be good and you will be lonesome. Tell me about that. Louis: You know, I I read Following the Equator in high school and begrudgingly. It was one of those books that was assigned, right? And and of course Twain is a famous author. This is probably one of his least known books. and I remember opening the page and it's a handwritten piece that he put in But now when they publish the book, they actually include that handwritten piece that he did on the on the inside page. And only later as an adult who actually cared more about learning than you do when you're 16 or 17, I really kind of dove into the book and and Twain's background of why he wrote the book. Because of course, in his age, he he was a radical, right? To a degree, in his age. And The interesting thing is is Twain was financially destitute at the time. He had no money. He had for a lot of re reasons I won't go into, he he was at a crossroads in his life, and rather than sitting in the you know, sit by himself and study his pain, he decides to go around the world on a steamship and and explore with the last amount of change he had in his pocket, right? Which is was crazy, right? I he he I'm sure he went against every advice of every peer that he had. And I wonder because You know, Twain leaves it to the reader to decide what he means by that phrase, right? And when you read through the book and his experiences going around the world and exploring these cultures through the lens of a nineteenth-century explorer/slash author, I think what he meant by be good and you will be lonesome is if if you just stay in your box, if you do exactly what society expects you to do, right, if you stay in your bubble. You know, in me growing up in the Midwest, James, it was you know, work a little harder than your parents, do a little better than your parents did, make a little more money than your parents did, right? Have your babies, get your mortgage, retire, and pass it on to the night you know, Don't don't scare yourself, don't stretch yourself. And that's what I think Twain, in my opinion, and and I like it he that he leaves it to us. That's what he means by being good. Just just stay in your box and do what you're supposed to do. Right? And that was actually my impetuous when I started my own company, which was which was crazy to me at the time to do that. And I'm like, look, if I'm gonna be good and just get another corporate job and just knock out my nine to five, I'm not gonna be good. I'm I'm gonna break that that those those bounds and and and attempt to do something different. And that's kind of what Twain did as well. So that's what it meant to me. James: it's a wonderful quote. I I agree with that interpretation as well, because Mark Twain was not good in in the traditional sense, right? I was actually cycling around Calaveras County and I came across the town where he wrote the famous jumping frog, which is his kind of breakthrough story. And I learnt that his name came from the minimum depth for the steamships, because he as you said, he weren't traveling on the steamships. but I Louis: Yeah, that's the book I recommend to people and they always expect I'm gonna recommend a leadership book or or Dan Goleman, Emotional Intelligence, you know, all all those and I say read Twain's book because it's it's the first travel blog. James: Hmm. Yeah, right. Louis: It's really legitimately the first ever travel blog is that book. You know, because James: Yeah. Louis: it it reads like a tr and if he was a blogger, this is what he would have done, but instead he wrote it in his, you know, his manuals. And so yeah, I'm I'm completely there with you. James: it's funny you say you were made to read it in school and then you kind of came back to it. I have a similar book. I was made to read Of Mice and Men by John Steinbeck in school. And of course when you made to Louis: yeah, James: do anything in school you hate it, of course, right? Why man, why don't have to do this? Is this terrible. Why Louis: Right, right. James: not have to read this old author? and now and I find myself coming back to that again and again as a book I recommend, but e equally Grapes of Wrath. I I Louis: The Grapes of Wrath. James: That I recommend that to anyone who's pro-capitalist. You know, just it not not necessarily Louis: yeah. It's so funny how we come back James: as not there's anything necessarily wrong with it, but the extremes of capitalism. I think if you want to learn about what true unchecked capitalism Louis: Agreed. Agreed. James: looks like Louis: You know, James, the stuff we read, the advice we get from our our parents or our grandparents that we roll our eyes at as young men James: Mm-hmm. Louis: and young and y and then we look back at it, right, and and we we re examine some of those things. Not all of it was good, some of it was completely right, but the opportunity to capture wisdom i is is is lost on the young, right? Because we we don't realize it that that what we're learning or what we're discovering is is you don't see its wisdom until you look back on it, right? I guess James: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Louis: that's the that's the definition of wisdom even, right? So I think it's remarkable that the things we've read or the things we've studied or the things we've thought about or the things we've considered when we're doing it at the time, you know, only on reflection. does it bring some of this remarkable discovery or key learning that I mean we've had these gems in our pocket the whole time, we just didn't know they were there, I guess. Right? James: It sinks in somewhere, doesn't it? so now you're in leadership development, so you have your own company, as you said, you you you weren't good, you Louis: I do. James: went out and made your own company, like like any good mess midwesterner shouldn't do. so what brought Louis: Yeah. James: you to leadership development? Louis: y y it it it started in a lot of different ways, right? That you know, I I began to discover and we've all been through, those of us that have w wove our way through corporate America, right? Y you know, you begin to realize that you have bosses or leaders that have a profound impact on you, positively or negatively. Right. You learn from these remarkable good examples, and you certainly learn from these remarkable bad examples. Right. And I began to to realize that the nature of how I felt about when I went to work had very little to do with the work I was doing. Right? That I had to enjoy what I was doing. I had to be good at what I was doing. Whatever that thing is. And I think this applies to anybody, whether you're a whether you're an accountant or a programmer or a a medical doctor or a teacher, right? You have to be good at what you do, right? And you have to enjoy doing that thing. But I found that times where I was even excited to go to work, when I didn't dread Monday mornings, right? That I when I didn't mind staying a little longer to do a little more effort, it had nothing to do with the work and everything to do with the people that I was doing it with. Right, my peer group and my and my leadership. And I realized quickly that when I had an enlightened leader, when I had a boss who who did all these things now that I I bring to organizations, right, that delivered these things, it was easy to go to work. I loved going to work. I enjoyed going. It doesn't mean it was never dysfunctional. That doesn't mean every day was a perfect day. Just like at home, not every day is a perfect day. There's always there's always a a challenge or a difficulty, right? But in this case, I learned then that how much leadership truly mattered, that management was just structural. Right? Management was all the block and tackling things that we had to do, and the PLs and the PowerPoints and the Excel spreadsheets and all those things. that nobody had any loyalty to those things. Nobody's nobody's ever said I really loved my job because I was well managed. They'll always James: Right. Louis: say, I really love my job because I was well led. You know, and when you ask, like, well, what did that leader do? that made you want to go to work, that made you want to think out of the box, right? That made you want to innovate, that made you want to create. All the things that they'll tell you have nothing to do with management and everything to do with leadership. You know, how they were inspired, right? How they were driven, somebody who pushed them just enough, but then stopped pushing when it was time to stop pushing, right? Somebody who was a coach, who was a mentor, who listened, right? Who who who gave great advice. You know, all those things are rooted in emotion. They're not rooted in intellect. And that's where James: Mm-hmm. Louis: leadership lives. Right? So demystifying that for people, because I think you can you can whiteboard out what it takes to be a great manager. What James: Mm. Louis: it creates what it takes to be a great leader, you've you've you've got to dive into both intellect and emotion. And James: Mm-hmm. Louis: look, a lot of organizations are hesitant to do that or they don't know how to go about it. Because they call it soft skills. When in reality, my friend, the soft you know, that's the hard stuff. The soft skills aren't soft. The the the soft skills are the and and To close that comment, you quickly learn that all the attributes that make somebody a great leader also make somebody a great spouse or a great friend or a great father or a great son or a great neighbor. It's all those same things. So when you work on the leader, you work on the person. When you work on the manager, you may work on the professional. Right? But when you work on the leader, you impact somebody 360 degrees, long, long past their their their work or their job impact. Right? So James: Mm-hmm. Louis: once I I was like a dog with a bone, once I, you know, once that kind of sunk into my brain. And it's like, how do I take this deeper? And again, how do I help organizations or even individuals, how do I help demystify that for people? Because a lot James: Yeah. Louis: of them don't even know how to go about it or don't know how to approach it. James: you said something at the beginning. I didn't when I didn't dread going in on Monday. when I heard that it saddens me because so many people dread Monday. All they want is to not dread Monday. And just I just how sad is that? That's the the state of the Louis: No, James: working world for so many people. Louis: And and it that's it, James. And that and that's why I called the book what I called it, right? Because it's James: Happiness personal, yeah. Louis: I've had that job where I've dreaded Mondays and you James: Mm. Louis: know, you're working for the weekend. Can't wait for the weekend, right? Can't wait, can't wait for that two weeks of vacation that Americans get, right? And and and they never take together, right? They only take one weekend and they live their whole lives for you know, a weekend or two weeks because they're not engaged with and it doesn't necessarily mean they ever hate their job. Look, if they hate their job, it's awful. They they're they're they're neutral about it. They have no feeling about it, right? They it's gray. Y i it's it's it's I don't hate going to work, nor do I enjoy going to work. Work is this neutral in my life. And how can it how can eighty percent of your waking life be neutral? What a sad, what a sad environment to create for people. So if you don't hate your job, great. But if you don't love what you're doing and love the people you're doing it with, then that's a hit and a half too, I think. James: it's scary to me how accepted it is that you ought not to. and and that Louis: Yeah. Wait. James: seems the norm almost in in the corporate world. That why would you why would you love your job? Why would you like the people you work with? It's almost like a joke, a running joke that you shouldn't. Whereas it could so easily be true, which is I think we were trying to get to in the book. If we start respecting that happiness and connection drives us, then we can create places that people enjoy the work and therefore be more productive. So it's a kind of win win. We can have our cake and eat it too. Louis: Absolutely. And you've said it so well. That's why I I even roll my eyes when s when they talk about work-life balance. I I just I hate that phrase. It James: Mm. Mm-hmm. Louis: that that and here's why I hate it. It infers work isn't part of life. And work by all means, how you make a living and what you do is part of life. So call it call it home hobby, work. something else balance, but but it's all part of the same puzzle. And it also infers that one part is happy and one part is unhappy. Right? One part is the part that you enjoy, that's life. And work is just something that you've got to soldier through in order to enjoy life. And sir that that's just one hundred percent unmitigated bullshit. I mean it's James: Yeah. Louis: it's or but I get it. Like you said, James, it's the reality. Most people I and I I I think live in that place. And I have friends, it's like, my God, they're like just four more years. I gotta slug out four more years till I can retire. I just slug out. I'm like, what an awful place to be. Right? It's it's it's it's literally sad. Right. James: Yeah. Louis: And if leaders wake up and realize that if I truly accept stewardship of the people's lives that I have, right? That when people come to work. They're telling me, here, boss, here's 80% of my waking life. What are you gonna do with that? Doesn't mean you're a cheerleader, doesn't mean you're a social service counselor, doesn't mean you're any of those. You're gonna create an environment and leaders should say this. I want you to look forward to coming to work. I wanna create a place that that you can be your better self. Right, that you can really, really be the best things that you can be. So then you're a better person when you go home. Right? James: Right. Louis: You're you're you're a better person to your spouse or your neighbor or your and and but a lot of leaders just don't see that as their responsibility. James: Mm. Louis: Right, no, no, no. I just assign work. I assign tasks. That's what I do. And look, that's still largely most of probably most of the world. And and you look, if you live in that world, man, that that's you just grow old. That's all. James: And interestingly, you come from a a steel town, I believe, in the Midwest, is that right? I remember reading that. And Louis: In Ohio, yeah. James: Frederick Taylor started really, I think, cementing what we're describing, the negative part of what you're describing, which is that work is a transactional, uninteresting job, and scientific management kind of was born In the steel industry and then proliferate it. And I think this acceptance of that status quo really kind of took took strongest hold in the early 20th century when work was standardized and it was I'm going to borrow Dart Lindsley's words, he was a previous guest. He said it's assumed that work ought to be a negative good. Why would anyone Louis: Yeah. James: ever want to enjoy their work? That's the assumption. Therefore, we need to control Louis: Right. James: and measure and coerce and bribe people to do this thing that they would never otherwise choose to do. And despite a lot of work being inherently interesting, those assumptions go into the way that we design the conditions around it. Louis: Agreed. Agreed. Yep. James: Which brings us onto a phrase that you use and you hate, which I hate as well. It's business, not personal. you also point out the leaders still had to make hard calls like layoffs. And so how do you how do you balance that that attitude with the realities of business? Louis: Well, I think i it's first of all, all too often leaders or bosses, when they have to make a hard decision, that's the phrase that they use to try to soften the blow, right? Of yes, you're you're redundant, your job is gone, but it's not personal. It's like you just took my job away and I now I can't feed my family. What could possibly not be more personal than that, right? It's that Look, you're running if if you're running a for-profit business, then you have to make decisions, right? Just like a father, if if it's economically tight at home, right, or has to tell their kids that Christmas is going to be lighter this year, right? Or we have to relocate. I know you really enjoy your s your school, but mommy and daddy have decided to move to another place in the world. It it's It's not that there's never a difficult message you have to deliver, right? Again, same as a same as a friend, same as a parent. When you've got to give your best friend real poignant advice that they may not want to hear, but you know they need to hear it, right? You're not gonna say It's business, it's not personal, right? It's remarkably James: Yeah. Louis: personal. So it's it's this we've got to take that logic right back into the work environment as well and understand that we need to make difficult decisions, especially if we work for for-profit organizations, right? we have to performance manage people they have to get their job done being a being a leader isn't just being well liked that's not it it's developing successful impactful relationships so when you have to make those difficult calls or decisions or give somebody some feedback that they may not want to hear or tell somebody that they might not get the incentive that they were expecting or this or that that that's done an environment that you've already built That's trust rich and respect rich, so they realize, right, that that it's coming from a place of of stewardship and care. Right. So James: Mm-hmm. Louis: so when people say that there's just even when they say let's take the emotion out of the decision, that's even an emotional decision. To James: Okay. Louis: you can't you can't take emotion out. Not Not without drugs or surgery, right? I mean we're we're emotional beings. We're wired that way. And understanding that the impact of those emotions are in play. We saw that during COVID, my friend. We've seen it in any kind of of any kind of disaster or any kind of thing that somebody's had to recover from. You know, it's it's the emotional journey that people struggle with. Not the not the technical journey, not the management journey, right? It's it's the emotional piece that they need to grapple with. And leaders have to understand that there should be no protection under saying, well, this was a business decision. Of course it was. I you're not I hope you're not out to get just me and you're eliminating my job because you you don't like my hairstyle or that of of of course it's not. It's it's of course it's not th in that level. It's n it's not I'm not taking it personally in that it's it's being done to me, it's being done within this environment. But again, if a leader has made the effort to to show a high degree of care and engagement along the way, then they don't need to hide behind that that trite old phrase because of Because it it it brings no armor, right? I don't know how to fix that. James: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. this idea of separating Louis: I know, make you James: emotion reason goes back to at least Descartes, who who believed that the the right way for a human to be was to completely remove emotion. From the equation. But then, since then, as we've started to understand the brain, we know that we need our emotions to make decisions. And there's a wonderful writer called Antonio Damasio, who wrote a book called Descartes' Error, to point out that if you truly take out emotion from people, they can't make decisions because we use our emotions on a daily basis. So the idea that should, or even can physically separate your emotions from your decisions is incorrect. And then also when you look at the working world, we celebrate the emotions as long as they're in the right direction. direction for us as a company. We want people Louis: Of course. James: to get excited about their work. We want people to celebrate the wins. We don't want people to bring the awkward, disagreeable side of themselves to work as well. So, you know, it's kind of like you can't have one without the other. if you just want a Louis: Really quick. Right. James: you know a bolt in the machine, then just hire an agent but what you really want is the human side of it to drive your business forward. Louis: and James, we we s I mean, almost every program we do for every client that we do has an element around emotional intelligence James: Mm. Louis: and and literally being the master of your own behavior. Right. And and you know it's so interesting because we you know, we we don't just skid the surface sometimes. We like to dive into these key human emotions and how we manifest them, not just at work, how we manifest them anywhere. Right. And I like when I have a group of professionals and I tell them, look, think about the things that make you angry. You right? And and they do that. And then I I we talk about now there's rational things that make you angry and irrational things that make you angry. The thing is they hit your emotional brain the same way. So traffic makes you angry. Social injustice makes you angry. Right? They'll hit your emotional brain the same way. One's a rational anger, one's an irrational anger. The thing is, you can't study your anger while you're in it. Right? You've got to think about things that make you angry when you're not already triggered, when you're not angry. And we do this fun little exercise around that. And it's fun and it's engaging, but then they begin to realize that things that make me angry, right? The first thing I have to do is say, wait a minute, does this serve me well? Especially in the work environment, right? Or in the home environment. You know, or or in any environment. What am I going to do with his anger? Right? what's my intended outcome if I yell at this person or I cut this person off in traffic and beep at them and give them a finger gesture that they just gave to me? mean, what's what's the payoff, right? And and is there an opportunity for me to be a better person? It's the same way at work, right? Because all those emotions are gonna play out. You know, and when we really dig into empathy too, and I'll get off this horse in a minute, but you know, to try to help people understand that when we often talk about empathy, it's always about somebody sad, you want to feel sad for them, right? James: Mm. Louis: But I don't want to just empathize with your sadness. I want to empathize with your happiness, right? I want to empathize with your anger. I want to empathize with your fear. You know, you're you're gonna speak to the board for the first time. You're fearful. I get it. Let's talk about that. I'm not afraid. Sure, you are. If you're not, you're stupid. Right? You're about to do your first board presentation. Let's talk about how we assuage some of these things and how they may manifest themselves, right? And so that's that key to emotional intelligence, I think, of what we bring. We want to bring our best selves all the time. I like when I drop the, you know, the mic drop of when I tell professionals when you get up in the morning and you go to work, do you want today to be a great day or do you want it to be a shit day? And they all say, I want. Today to be a great day. And I say, great, then behave accordingly. Right? Behave in such a way that will get your intended outcome of the day being a great day. Because if you bring James: Mm-hmm. Louis: ugly and you get ugly back, how how dare you be surprised? Right? So behave in such ways that make it a great day. And put James: Mm. Louis: that front of mind. You know, it's the same way when we say you've got build trust. And a lot of people, when they think about trust. Trust is just something that evolves. You either trust somebody or you don't. You don't put it in front of mind. You know, you trust somebody and is generally born out of proximity. Do you trust your flatmate or not? Do you trust your classmate or not? Do you trust your bot? And we challenge professionals, put trust in front of mind. And daily, are you doing these things? Because the erosion of trust is general little microaggressions, little paper cuts. James: Mm. Yeah. Louis: It's never the big bald lie or the big bald betrayal. Sometimes it is, and those are clear, but it's it's the little things that build trust and the little things that erode trust. And we encourage professionals, put those things front of mind. Right? No say, am I gonna do trustworthy things today? Right? Am I gonna ask somebody's opinion and really listen? Right. Am I gonna ask for somebody's perspective and really pay attention? Am I gonna make it an effort to read somebody's body language and see if they might be detached or uninterested or disengaged? Right? because all too often we just move through our world stuck in our own minds and we don't think that the thing that I said or the thing that I did or the way that I behaved or somebody I walked right by without saying good morning to, because I was in my own head, did that contribute to building trust? Or did that erode trust a little bit? And as soon as you put those things front of mind, because at the end of the day, if we're not trusted, then we can't be successful leaders, we can't be good parents, we can't be good friends, we can't be good spouses, not if we're not trusted. Right? Sorry, I got on a soapbox there. James: Hmm. No, that's that's that's a great answer. I love the idea of these small little paper cuts as well, because we do that, and I've done that, sh to my much to my shame, you know, when you're not in a good place, right? And you do these little things, and you're not you're not killing people, you know, you're not really, really shouting things, but you're just and you hope that almost hope that it won't be noticed, but it will be noticed, and people will feel that when you give them those little paper cuts. And the trust piece as well, you talk about what peop brings people joy or sadness or work. Being trusted. Everyone wants to be trusted. And Hemingway said the best way to find out if you can trust someone is to trust them. You really don't have many options Louis: Yeah. James: there. You've got to give them a chance. And all people want is to be trusted and to have some degree of autonomy in what they do and to learn and be better in their day-to-day work. And when you think about the fact that you spent a third to half your life at work, again, the idea that it can't be personal. Okay, well, apparently a third to half of your life can't be personal, and that if that's true. But that that needs to that needs to cater to our deeper needs as humans, otherwise we're just never gonna live a life worth living. Louis: No doubt. No doubt. James: And you mentioned a word in there as well, which was stewardship, So what exactly do you mean by stewardship and how does that differ from management? Louis: You know, I w when I found the word and not that I found it, you know, but when when I thought about the word and applied it in this environment, it's that it it's it's that that that switch. It's that moment when a leader says that I don't just manage my people, I have stewardship of a big component of their lives. Right? And so when my people come to work They say, here, boss, here's a big piece of my life. The answer in your head shouldn't be, yeah, I don't care about that. Just get your ass to work. Right. It needs to be something bigger. And when you realize that you have significant impact on how somebody feels about themselves, right? And how somebody feels about what they contribute, how they fit on the team. Right, how they make their living, which is a big part of their lives, right? The way in which they do that, you know, that's accepting stewardship of that and know that you've got responsibility for impacting all those things. Right. And the old idea, the minimum expectation is no, no, no, you come to work, I give you a paycheck, contract cum contract concluded. You know, that's just not enough because all you get is all you get is gray. You know, you get everybody doing just enough not to get fired, right? You get just gray, right? You get media like like a parent, and this was more of an old school thing, but I remember my father even saying things like, Hey, I put a roof over your head, clothes on your back, and food on your table. That's the minimum expectation, James, of a father. That's what you're supposed to do, right? That's James: That's that that's the legal requirement. Louis: I can't r r run around hungry and naked with no I I mean of course you do that. That's the minimum expectation. But a father who does just that and doesn't have a loving home is gonna have a disengaged child and at 18 you're never gonna see him again. Right? It's the same thing at work. Of course you provide a paycheck. We're not volunteers. Okay, I get that. Of course you do. That's the minimum expectation of a job. I work, I get money for work. That's the minimum expectation. We've got to pay fairly, we've got to give good benefits, blah, blah, blah. All those things a cat does, right, in her world, right? All the comp and benefit things and all those important things. If you want people to go to that next level, you have to inspire those things. And inspiration's not management. Inspiration is rooted in stewardship. To understand that people have bad days, good days, great ideas, crazy ideas, people will fail. Right. People will exceed your expectation. People will fall below your expectation. What are you going to do in all those circumstances and all those moments? Right? Are you are you just going to write them up for policy? Or do you truly want to get them on track to make them feel like they're part of a cohesive team that's there to make something special happen? Right. James: Mm-hmm. Louis: And that's stewardship. Leaders get that it has, you know, it doesn't live in SOP, it doesn't live in EBITDA, it doesn't live in the spreadsheets, it doesn't live there. That's not where performance lives. That's those are just metrics that report on the performance. Right. And you know, we work with some groups, James, a couple you know, I I'm predominantly in the hotel space, as you know, although we work with a lot of organizations, but we work with a lot of ownership groups now that owners, whereas decades ago the owner just wanted to see the P L, owners understand now if my hotel has great leadership and great culture, the money follows. If it doesn't have those things, the money never comes. I don't care how much I beat people over the head with the PL, right? My hotel or my asset, whatever my asset is, it could be a retail store, it could be anything, a restaurant. If if if if if it's not led well and it doesn't have great culture, then I have turnover, then I have bad guest service or customer experience. I have all those things, and then the money goes out the door. Right? James: Mm. Louis: So leaders that and I put that all under the umbrella of that term, accept stewardship of the this major component of people's lives and look you'll never have another P and L problem. I think. James: So I'm sure a lot of people listening will agree with with all of that. They understand that the the revenue and the EBITDA is yes, it's important, but that comes from everything else that comes before it. However, why do we gravitate back to that more control oriented, metric driven, it's business, not personal, nature of running a company. Louis: You know, because it's easiest, I think, James, right? It's it's there's no there's no emotional skin in that game. James: Mm. Louis: Right? It's it's it's easier to to fall back into the transaction. You know, it's it's and we've got to rage against that wiring because it's natural I think it's just a natural place for us to end up and and to go. So when the chips are down or things that are things are difficult, What where can we retreat to that decreases my vulnerability? And I can retreat to the raw number or the raw transaction. I always give this example of you go to a pub somewhere, right? And it's not very busy. You know, so you sit down at at the bar, you grab a bar stool, and you have a pint, and the bartender's the nicest guy ever. Cause he's not busy, right? So he wants to be friendly and engage you and where you're from, blah blah blah. Then work gets out, pub gets busier, now the bar is too deep, that bartender's smile goes away, his attitude goes away, because now he's one hundred percent transactional. It's like where's happy bartender go? Like he goes home when it gets busy because he puts his game face on and his game face looks like he wants to fight somebody. Right. And and when in reality, that bartender's positive attitude, he should move faster by all means. But his positive attitude, his positive approach should go up. It should James: Mm. Louis: increase, not decrease. Right. And and when we turn when we train service, that's what we talk. And it's the same way in lit we look when the chips are down when things are difficult. We can't lead less. Right? We can't be less heart-centered. We have to be more heart-centered. Right. And look, and it doesn't mean that we don't have a high degree of intensity. It doesn't mean that we don't have a high degree of focus. We have all those things. But we gotta understand, right? That and it doesn't mean you don't get angry. It doesn't mean you don't get any of those. Some some people confuse it of Lou, you're saying I always gotta be in a great mood. I said that's not what I'm saying. Leaders can have a high degree of intensity, right? You can have that focus, you can have that strength of purpose, right? It's not about having that. constant smile plastered on your face. I don't trust that person ever. Right? That people are like every day's a Disney day. Like, dude, are you well medicated? That's your only way you get there. I mean there's there there's lots of bad days. Leaders understand what do I do with this though? It's back to that intended outcome, right? Of here's what my people need. The chips are down, things are difficult. What do my people need me to be right now? Right? What kind of leader do they need me to be? And that's what I need to bring forward. And so we don't retreat back into the metric. Look, we always pay attention, we always pay attention to the metric. But the met sh the metric is strictly a measurement, a cold, heartless measurement of where we are versus where we need to be. And it it by all means it it should be our compass point. That's where we're trying to get to. Again, we run for profit b businesses, but I've never seen anybody manage their way to that successful number ever. James: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Louis: through c through y you know, through through shrewd management. It's always, always enlightened leadership. Always. James: it's interesting you talk about the bartender. I didn't work in a bar, I did work in a bakery, and I did exactly what you described. And it always impresses Louis: Yeah. James: me to this day when you get that the the one or two percent that can keep being friendly, even when they know there's a massive line of people waiting at the same time. I Yeah. Louis: yeah. There's a queue out the door and how you And how you continue to engage people and smile and say, sir, thank you for your patience. never up. I always tell organizations, don't apologize for being busy. You should be thrilled that you're busy. Right. So this look of, I'm sorry, it's really busy, versus thank you for your patience, right? James: Yeah. Louis: We are gonna be with you in a moment. It's gonna be worth the wait, because this croissant's gonna be the best thing you've ever had. You know, but James: Right. Louis: that level of engagement makes people feel like they're not cueing, James: Yeah. Louis: right? It makes them feel more welcome. You know, 'cause when you're finally through the queue and you get to the front, if you get a what are you having? Versus a smile and right? James: Hm. Is it Yeah. Yeah, then it was all for nought, right? At that point, if that's what you're queuing up for, just for a miserable experience. What's interesting is that Louis: Yeah. James: if I'm in the queue, I always get I hate lining up for things. I it drives me nut. I just don't like hanging around So I get frustrated. But if I see up front that it's because it's a really friendly bartender or it's a really friendly service person, then it kind of alleviates that. I I'm kind of like it gives me Louis: Yes. James: almost l something to look forward to, just a pleasant interaction in the day. So even if you're from both sides of it, it works out well. There's no need to rush as long as it's a good experience. Louis: And James, that's a piece of that's a piece of artwork in that being friendly and engaging but not lingering. Because that's the other thing. You're three feet in the queue James: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Real skill. Louis: and the bar he's having a chat with the pr like no no no no no get get out of line. It's gonna it it's my turn next. And that's the front desk agent at the at the hotel or the gate agent at the airport. Be friendly and engaging, but be mindful that that the you should have a higher degree of operational intensity. James: Right. Louis: Right? because you're busy, whatever that busy may look like or or be, right? but never lose never lose that attitude. Because especially if you're in a in a service function, it's the most important tool that you have in your toolkit, I think. Not how quickly you can explore. James: It's almost like a superpower as well. That kind of protects you from the the stress that would come with rushing as well. Louis: No doubt. No doubt. James: growing trust, for example, is obviously central to your thesis and is central to stewardship. So and everyone agrees that we should all trust each other, but in many workplaces we just don't for some reason. So what can you do to help leaders build that trust? Louis: Well, we talk about, first of all, keeping trust front of mind. right? Yeah, and that's step one of asking yourself, do my people trust me? And if your answer is yeah, they trust me, I always ask, how do you know that? How do you know they trust you? Right? Same as your spouse, same as your significant other, same as your your kids. Do your kids trust you? Yeah, they trust me. How do you know that? Right? And so then we break that down a little bit. Right, about the indicators of a trusting relationship. And then we talk about the things that we do. It's generally rooted in forming rapport and listening, right? asking great questions to understand people, right? and and that's where it begins. Because the other thing I like to put forth, James, is the absence of distrust. doesn't necessarily mean you have a trusting environment. Just like the absence of disrespect doesn't necessarily you mean you have a respectful environment. You can have this neutral environment of whether you're and if you ask a team member or somebody like, well do you trust your boss? And if they said, I don't know, I don't, I don't know. Right. And it's like you said before, in order to trust, you've got to give trust. You know, my dad always said, James, there's two ways to lead your life. You can either trust everybody and wait for them to lose it. or trust nobody and wait for them to earn it. And I and I've always thought that pendulum's somewhere in the middle. But if James: Mm, mm. Louis: you're the boss, if you're the leader, right, then it's your responsibility to go up and develop that trust. And you've got to be known to your people. You've got to be known to them and they've got to be known to you. So you don't treat them like a transaction. You don't treat them in the as their job title. You treat them as an individual. And that has to be organic and authentic. You can't sit down on day one and say, okay, I've got to build a relationship with you. So do you like sports? What's your favorite food? Do you like dogs? Right? You're not going to do a tick list, a checklist. James: Mm. Louis: Anecdotally, you're going to discover those things about people. Right, because the single best thing we have for anybody is is time, right? James: Mm. Louis: For your kids, for your friends, for your spouse, for your parents is is the gift of time. And it doesn't need and when I often say that to professionals, they say, Well, we have a you know, I have a monthly scheduled one hour one-on-one with my people. Like, look, those things are great, and I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about humanize yourself. Right? Go out and engage with people because we have this social contract, right? Especially in the States. How was your weekend? Fine. How was your weekend? Fine. Contract comp you know, I don't really give a damn. I'm just being polite, right? But when you really ask and when you really find out what somebody enjoys doing, and a lot of people say, Well, I have to find commonality. You don't have to find commonality, right? That if you have a friend, I have a friend, James, who loves pickleball, right? He just loves pickleball. James, between you and I, I don't care about pickleball. But he does. So I take joy in his joy. So he's like, dude, you gotta see my new pickleball racket. I'm like, bring it. I can't wait to see it. I can't wait to see it. And I'm not faking. I do take joy in his joy. And then so I ask, what makes this a better racket than the one you had? Because to me, my friend, they look the same. Right? And he'll tell me, and he's excited about it. And doing things like that, again, finding joy in other people's joy, trying to understand other people's sadness or fear, that builds trust. Right? So when the person has a moment of grief or has a moment of challenge, they trust you. So they'll either come and ask for your help or you'll offer the help your help and they'll and they'll accept it. Right? James: Mm-hmm. Louis: It's the same as being a parent. I like, you know, my son is remote, he's in Hawaii. I like when he calls me up and says, Dad, I need your advice. Right. And I love that. and he's a twenty-seven year old young man now in his PhD program at Manoa, but he'll call me up and he's like, Dad, I'm doing a curriculum for a class because he's teaching undergraduate c classes now. I'd love your feedback. That makes me feel that I'm trusted. Even if I don't give him good feedback. James: Sure you do. Louis: He's operating at a scale now far back. But you know, he's he's you know, he asked me like, you know, here's my topic. How do I make those emotional connections with my students? Right? you don't ask for people's feedback if you don't trust them, right? You don't ask for people's opinion. But you don't earn that ask unless you do the work beforehand. to be to be trusting. And that's about learning about them, understanding them, right? What makes them tick, what makes them happy, what makes them sad, you know, what they enjoy doing, what they don't enjoy doing, what what their hopes and dreams and aspirations are. And again, those things come about though in an authentic environment. Not a survey, nothing like that. And as you get to know those things about somebody, then you become trustworthy. And there's not a moment where somebody's going to sit back and say, wow, I think I trust you now. It's organic. It'll grow. Right. James: Yeah. Louis: So and again, if you're a leader, if you're a boss or a parent, then you got to give the hard feedback. They're going to accept it and they're going to listen and they're going to understand it because you're trusted. James: there's a few obstacles as well, and I think companies need to be more aware of these obstacles. For example, you know, the the the weekly check in meeting or the engagement survey. There's a body of research called moral licensing, which is that once you acknowledge that you you've found a problem, you there is a tendency to assume that you've solved that problem. And I feel like managers and organizations almost encourage managers to think that way. So do you have your weekly check in or your monthly check in? Okay, then you're being a good manager. Louis: No James: And and I and I worry that that that's a kind of cognitive closure. It's okay, I've checked that box, I've done the management, but and I worry that a lot of it's because of the lack of time to do the things that do take the time that you're describing. how can you create more time in your day? Because I know a lot of managers get frustrated, they want to do that stuff, but they've got so Louis: We do. James: much procedural stuff to get on with that they don't have the time to call those connections. Louis: No look, the I will take on authentic thirty seconds over a one hour scheduled one on one sit-down with with no heart anytime, right? So it's it's not I've learned it's not about the length of time. It's it's about how rich the time is within the moments that you spend. Right? You know, I'll draw it to a personal example of of when my boys were younger, James, and my boys would say, You know, Daddy, we we want you to travel less. And I would lie to them because and say, okay, I'll try to travel less. And it wasn't the truth. And I finally stopped saying it. I'm like, guys, look, my I I travel. That's what daddy does. Right. But when and and it may not be less, it may be more, but I promise when we're together Right. And this chokes me up when I think about it, but it's the truth. When we're together, it's not gonna be me and me and my iPhone and you and your iPad. Right. We're gonna spend genuine, honest time together wherever we can find it and wherever we can do it. Right. And leaders get that if you take a minute, five minutes, ten minutes. And walk around your organization, right? And go to the water cooler, go to the break room and grab a coffee, right? And spend 20 seconds, 30 seconds, a minute, just engaging somebody authentically. Right? There's such huge payoff the minute that new employee goes back to his desk going, you know what? He's a he's a pretty normal guy. He's a pretty good guy, right? And then you you do that in trickles. You know, that that and you just take moments, you make beautiful moments, right? You know, not okay hours, beautiful moments, small moments, right? That you can recapture fifteen minutes. 20 minutes to walk through your organization, whatever that organization is, and take the opportunity to do that. And again, make it authentic and make it genuine. I always challenge somebody if they run a big hotel, for example, or a restaurant group, or you know, a sports friend, whatever the case may be. Look, there's somebody here you don't know well, make it your mission to go out and find them and say, I'm sorry, I don't know if we've met yet. My name's Louis. Go shake their hand. It's great to have you on your team. If I can never help, please reach out. I'm at your disposal. And then you make another touch point the next month and another touch point and another touch point. So now you're not the guy in the corner office. You're just Louis or you're just James. And then and when you ask me when you see me walking through the hall, like, hey James, you just got back from holiday, right? Yeah, yeah. You went to you w you went to the Amalfi Coast. How was it? it was wonderful, Boss. Really? What was the best part? James: Mm. Louis: Well, I'm a big foodie and we explored food. It's like I had no idea you you were, you know, what was your best restaurant? And you ask those questions and you really listen to the end. And it's moments, right? It's just it it's all built in in moments, right? It's the simple, small things that we do and and and how we lead, James, that that make the biggest difference. You know, I always use that example of and teams get it, of of And it's a bigger example, but it's simple of it's Valentine's Day, ladies, so you get roses from your significant other. But it's Valentine's Day. You're supposed to. Right? If you get random roses in January, because your guy comes home or your girl comes home and says, I was thinking about you, aren't those better roses? Than the Valentine's Day rise. Okay, so that's why that 30 seconds of genuine authentic engagement is better than a one-hour monthly scheduled one-on-one. James: Right. Louis: It's authentic. You didn't have to do it. You didn't need to do it. You wanted to do it. Because it lived James: Mm. Louis: here. It didn't live here, right? It kind of lived in both spots, I suppose, because you had to be intentful to go do it. Right. that's where the time comes from. James: Yeah. Louis: Leaders that tell me they don't have time to do that bullshit. Yes, you do. Right. You you just choose not to have the time to do that. You do have time to do that. Because it's my it's it's 15 minutes a day, right? James: Mm. Louis: It's it's the time you spent standing in line at Starbucks, right? That you can you can go and do it with your with your teams, right? It's it's it's all about the authentic moment. That's what it is. When you're there with somebody, even in the minute, you're fully engaged, you're right, you're one on one. And you listen, you pay attention, right? you ask questions, you learn about somebody, and you take that away with them, right? and I challenge people, you got a diary that time, and it's only it's only 20 minutes a day, right? That's all it is. And when you challenge them strongly enough, they realize they do have time for that. They've just chosen not to do it. Because they think it's more important to slug through their their CC part of their inbox. Right, and and th that's that's not more important. James: Well, I you know, I would almost say I don't know if they do, but it's easier. It's easier to sit at your desk and slug through your email. Mm human can human Louis: No, right. No, absolutely. James: interactions are tiring. They take effort, but they're more rewarding as a result. So yeah, I'd love to sit at my desk all day and ever interact with everyone. But it'd make me a terrible human and I know I wouldn't be any happier for it as well. So you do kind of have Louis: Right. James: to stretch yourself at times to create those interactions. And as you're speaking it, it almost feels like you're kind of building a house of cards, in the sense that it takes one card at a time and in the end you end up with something beautiful. But also it's very delicate and you can undo a lot of that work with a with one terrible interaction as well. So it's a very fragile thing to build that trust. Louis: It it is a fragile thing. You know, we we always say, you know, it's earned in drops but lost in buckets, right? That if James: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Louis: you and and that comes back to the EI piece of making sure that you're the master of your own behavior, if you're the leader, right? look how quickly trust was lost with that that couple at the Coldplay concert, the CEO and the P of H right. James: Yeah. Louis: It takes one act It takes one act to completely lose confidence or lose trust. And then it takes forever to get it back, right? So and and again, we we need to be mindful of those things, right? not just as leaders again, as as friends and spouses and significant others and parents and all those things. You know, it's the same thing. And and it's it's variable, my friend. It changes, right? That when you're asking yourself, I realize quickly that the father my adult sons need now is the different dad they needed when they were 12 and 15. Right. So it's my responsibility to grow accordingly. Just like if your relationship matures, I learned that once I had elderly parents, the son they needed me to be is different. Right. And that comes back to, you know, that switch around of the golden rule of you treat people the way they want to be treated. Not the way you want to be treated. You know, you gotta flip that switch because if you treat people the way you wanna be treated, first of all that's self-centered, it's myopic, right? It's a you centered universe if you treat everybody the way you wanna be treated. But if I treat people the way they wanna be treated, the way they wanna be engaged, they again it contributes to trust, right? And it it helps form a better relationship because I understand that the son my elderly mother needed me to be wasn't the son that she needed when she was a professional just trying to put food on the table. Right. And James: Yeah. Louis: same same thing with my adult sons, right? and same things when friendships or relationships mature, right? Things change. You know, now that my my wife and I were empty nesters, right? It's a whole different environment. It's a different world. And it's my responsibility, right, in in my goal to be a successful spouse, right, and a successful partner to understand the dynamic is different now, right? We're not raising children anymore. We still wanna be there from an advice perspective. but I've gotta accept responsibility that the environment is different and behave accordingly. James: statistically speaking, nesters are one of the happiest demographics in the in America actually. Louis: but I couldn't be happy we couldn't be happier. is that lonely? I'm like, no, it's you know James: Ha ha. Louis: my stepdaughter was the last one to leave and and not that we want not that we couldn't wait for them to go, that's not it at all. And we love when they come home. We love it. And here's the thing, James, we love that they wanna come home. James: Mm. Louis: Right? That's the that's that's where the money is. Yeah, you yeah, James: That means you did something right. Louis: y you don't compel them You better be home for th you better be home for Chr they when they wanna come home, when they wanna be part of this. that's that's that's pretty freaking cool. Yeah. James: Yeah. at the end of the book you mentioned that one of your favorite movies is The Princess Bride, So tell me a bit about why The Princess Bride is such a great movie, because it is. Louis: It is. You know, and it's it's when you watch it beyond the comedy, and there's so many delightful comedic moments in it, right? and you know the one quote that hit me the most when the Dread Pirate Roberts, you know, tells the princess, you know, life is pain, princess. Anybody t telling you d different is selling something? Right, is such this poignant moment. But that's not the only poignant moment, right? That even when he's in the sword fight with Inigo Montoya, right? James: Yeah. Louis: and they appreciate each other's skill and ability, right? And to the point where talk about trust when Inigo hands hands him his sword for him to look at and says, I've never seen its equal. And he could have stabbed them right there. But instead he hands them the sword back, right? That's trust, even among perceived enemies, right? And there's so many of these other little layers and moments in that in that film, I think, that are probably lost in the comedy, right? James: Mm-hmm. Louis: That are are kind of great little life lessons. So and it's one of those films that I can just re-watch and continue to rewatch that I just appreciate. You know, and it just shows that entertainment doesn't just make you laugh. You know, it gives you a moment to think. It gives you a moment to have to be introspective, I think. And look, there's a lot of films that do that. That's that's the signature of a great film, I think. Right. You know, some films just make you laugh because they're silly or they're, you know Like Caddyshack or Stepbrothers of those kinds of films, right? I don't think there's a lot James: Yeah. Louis: of deeper meaning in a lot of those films. But, you know, a movie like that, again, just just makes you reflect and learn things from a single from a simple medium. And I think that's why I mention it in the book. And I tie it back to leadership is painful. Anybody telling you different is selling something. Anybody saying, just read my book and you'll be a better leader. Bullshit. Right? You know, or read my book, you'll be a better father, or a better this. Those people are selling something. You know, that everybody's on a different journey. Everybody, some will be sprinters, some will be marathonners, some will be turtles and they'll slug through it. that anybody promising a magic bullet is is is again is selling something. is is lying, lying, James: Mm. Yeah. Louis: I think, that that there is no guaranteed recipe. That's part of the acceptance of it. You know, there is no magic thing that makes anybody a better parent or a better leader or a better friend. You're on your own journey. When anybody tells me I'm an expert, I'm like, no I'm not. I'm a con I'm a constant student of this idea of leadership. And the more I learn, the more I realize that there's more to learn, right? And and that's part of the trip as well. You know, and it it never stops, it never ends, which I think is pretty great. James: I could have said the exact same thing, particularly as you get into the more you write and the more you read in order to write, the more you realise how much out there there is to learn that you haven't probably got the time in your life to get to, which means that you have to live your life in a constant state of ignorance, in some d in some capacity. And that's kind of fun. Louis: Yeah. It is. You know, if you think you got it all done, man, if you think you got it all figured, that's just no. You know, but some people some people do James: Yeah. Where's the fun in that? Right. Louis: see it from that perspective, which I think is scary, my friend, for sure. James: Well Louis, thanks so much. I could listen to you all day because you've you've got wonderful views, not just I d not just Louis: Thank you. James: on management, but just on on life, I think, as well. So despite the fact despite the fact that that no Louis: Well it's lovely to talk to you, my friend as well. This is this is James: one can sell you the solution, I will hold up your book one last time for anyone looking at it, because it is a great book. I found myself nodding the whole way through it. Where can people find your book? Where can people find out more about you and about what you have to say? Louis: Sure. well they can get the book on Amazon, but if they want a signed copy, they've got to go directly to me because Amazon can't do the signed copy, right? so two places. the one is my company webpage, which is inspirelsc.com, right? or everything is personal dot org, which is easy to remember as well. So they can go there, or inspire lsc dot com, reach out on LinkedIn, Louis, last name is Roden, R O D E N. I'm the only one on there. So and it's my only social media. I'm not on Facebook. I'm not on any of that other stuff, which has been Delightful. but reach out on LinkedIn as well and and drop me an IM or something and I'll certainly accept a friend request or a contact request and would love to pop a book in the mail to somebody. It'd be my pleasure to do that. James: Amazing. Thank you so much. And I'll put all those links in the show notes as well for people to find them. But Louis, thank you so much for your time. I I genuinely hope we get the chance to speak again soon. Louis: Thank you, James. Cheers. James: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Disengaged. If you enjoyed it, please remember to subscribe so you don't miss out on future episodes and if possible, please give the show a rating. Finally, if you have friends or colleagues that you think might find this interesting, please let them know. This is tremendously helpful and I do appreciate it. see you next time on Disengaged.