Niklas: Hi and huge welcome to you my lovely listeners. So glad you're here. Today you're joining me for a chat with Shruta. Shruta is a Sydney based entrepreneur and former senior risk and consulting leader with 18 plus years of experience advising some of the world's largest organizations. Shruta, so nice to have you.

Shruta Satam: Thank you, Niklas, great to be here.

Niklas: I think you have spent a long time in consulting. Maybe you can walk us a bit through it and also later on what made you decide to leave and start your own company. I think that's really an interesting journey.

Shruta Satam: Yeah, absolutely. So ⁓ I spent around 18 plus years, as you mentioned, Niklas, in consulting. And this was based in the US as well as in Australia. In my previous role, I was a director at ⁓ organizations like Deloitte and PWC. So it was a lot largely a lot of the big four consulting, but within the risk management space. A lot of sort of my clients were in the banking and financial services sector and industry. So it was really advising ⁓ sort of senior leadership on how can they proactively manage risk within organizations and then how can they do things like apply the right level of governance, you know, have a robust sort of three ⁓ levels of defense structure ⁓ and so on. So it was really interesting work. ⁓ you know, I got to work with ⁓ a lot of ⁓ very great ⁓ teams and people. And there were a lot of sort of amazing engagements and things like that that I got to be a part of. So I'm very thankful to that phase of my ⁓ sort of journey because I think that helped me move on to what came next. ⁓ the main reason why I started ⁓ my company, ⁓ which is called PostTuck, ⁓ was because of a problem that I kept seeing time and again in consulting ⁓ as well as outside ⁓ you know, in the interactions that I had with people. And that is that a large number of us were reading, you know, all of these great sort of leadership books, self-help books, and so on. But then when it came time to actually implement them, ⁓ we sort of got pulled into the busyness of our jobs or you know of our lives and so on. So there was always sort of that knowing doing gap or that implementation gap that was out there. And for me ⁓ personally, you know, I did not see anything that was available out in the market that really helped. Close that gap. So there wasn't really a robust sort of tool or infrastructure out there that really took things like, you know, what did I learn from so-and-so self-help book? And then how can I next apply it? So that was a very persistent problem that I noticed happening. And that was sort of that external calling that led me to then ⁓ co-found Pusta.

Niklas: I think if you look at statistics, it's only that we apply like 10 % or something of the things we read, actually translate into reality. And I find that really interesting in the sense that I also read a lot. I've always read a lot. I try to apply the things I read and still it seems like the number is so small. So what did you figure out was the missing or is the missing link to get to a higher... ⁓ application of what you're reading.

Shruta Satam: Yeah. So you know, similar to you, Nicholas, you know, for me, books were sort of very pivotal in everything that was that I was doing in at my work as well as sort of in my personal life. For me, the tracking mechanism of things that I was learning from books was very sort of manual. So I would sort of make notes ⁓ separately, you know, in a different app. ⁓ or I would sort of jot down comments and then try to sort of remember those at the right time, at the right place. So it was just a very cumbersome sort of process out there. And then you're right, is that really less than 10% of you know what we're sort of reading gets translated into actual learning and then actual behavioral change. And I noticed that happening with me as well, as well as with others that I was working with. So I think that was sort of the missing element, and I think it was Mainly that there was not really one platform or app or an ecosystem that that does all of this, right? So there are a number of sort of summary apps out there currently, but almost all of them sort of stop at summaries, or you know, a few of them you know go a step forward and provide you with some steps as to what to do next, but then again stop there. So I think that was the issue as well. ⁓ so for us, when ⁓ you know we're thinking of How can we translate Pustak to solve these gaps? Those were some of the key things that came up. So, for example, in Posttak, you know, every reader gets you know specific, customized, tailored to them action steps from every book that they're reading. So, what that means is that two people reading the same book get completely different action steps. So it's very personalized to them. And then we're also sort of launching a habit tracker. So, what that means is that two people reading the same book get completely different action steps. So it's personalized to them. ⁓ that closes the loop between this. So we are closing the loop between what they're learning, what they're applying, and then are they actually staying true to it? And we're calling that the Pusta Coach. So that's this entire ecosystem in sort of one platform or app.

Niklas: What exactly, and I think you already talked about it a bit, is that the problem was just reading something. So where's the disconnect? Where do I lose my track if I don't have an app like Pustak, for example?

Shruta Satam: Yeah. ⁓ so retention is the biggest thing, right? You're you know, the first thing is that you've read this great book and you're really inspired by it for let's say a couple of days, but then it's really hard to retain sort of the frameworks that you have heard about or that you've read about, and then it's really hard to make sure that you are sitting and implementing those on a day-to-day or a weekly or a daily basis, and then making that a behavioral change is sort of the absolute next level. So that To reach that point, I think you have to cross a ro lot of hurdles on the way. So that's sort of the main thing is around that retention gap. ⁓ and then secondly, I think it's also the busyness of life, right? So a lot of sort of the professionals that I work with, I mean, everyone's so busy ⁓ with what they're doing and their work and their personal lives that really completing books in itself is a big barrier. And then, you know, even after the fact that they've finally managed to complete a book. ⁓ it's really a lot of steps to sort of making th that that change or that action that you've taken really stick and become a behavior. So I think there was just a lot of gap from just reading a book to then ⁓ changing yourself, changing your life, having an impact.

Niklas: Yeah, I have to think about a book I read a long time ago now, which was Eat That Frog. think it's a book about how you tackle the problems kind of that you have or how to change behavior in a sense that they say or this book proclaims you should start the day with the most annoying task like eating a frog because these like large things that have a large impact usually are the ones

Shruta Satam: Mm.

Niklas: ⁓ that are also hardest for us to do. And I, I find it really interesting if I imagined an app like that, that would really help following up on, something like that, that leads to like drastic behavior changes if you do it right. Because if you do the most valuable task every morning that you can do, you probably will see a significant impact over time if you do it for a year. ⁓ so this interesting, what I also find really interesting is How can I imagine this tailoring to a different person's works in post-structures? Because not everybody will get the same doings from the same book, right?

Shruta Satam: That's right. And that was one of the key Niklas for us, you know, while we're building Pustak is to really have that personalized per user, right? ⁓ so I personally really believe that that's the future of learning, especially in today's day and age, and especially with ⁓ all the advances that you can have with AI. ⁓ right. So for us, what we've really done is we've used AI to really power the back end of it. You know, we have ⁓ sort of users once they onboard onto Pustuk, they have a set of sort of onboarding questions that Really pick up sort of their profile, their current goals, their challenges, you know, what are they looking to achieve going forward? You know, what sort of that ⁓ core identity shift that they're looking for, and then based on that profile, you know, our personalization engine in the back end sort of customizes every single book, ⁓ the action steps of every single book for them. So that's how they then get sort of you know the these custom action steps, and they're able to ⁓ add those to sort of our habit track. Or the Pusta coach that I mentioned. So that's sort of that next step there. And very interestingly, Nicholas, Eat That Frog is one of the books that we do have available in Pustacan. And that is actually quite popular with our readers as well in terms of what they're trying to do. But that's the kind of readers that we typically get on the platform as well. So that's no surprise there.

Niklas: Yeah, I mean, I would say it's one of the more obvious ones. And I would personally say that it's also an impactful one if you just follow the largest principles, you will see results. ⁓ So I'm quite sure about that. ⁓ When you started building this, what was most surprising to you? What didn't you expect on?

Shruta Satam: Yeah. So when we started building this, I think what really surprised us is ⁓ you know, how much of that ⁓ knowing doing gap was a real problem for users. So initially, when we launched PostAc, you know, we had ⁓ action steps which in itself was ⁓ a step beyond what traditional summary platforms provided, but they were pretty much the same action steps for all users. So really ⁓ having this personalization engine ⁓ help users with that knowing doing gap and really Customizing it for the users was really something that surprised me to the extent of the popularity that it's had with sort of the readers on the platform. So they really like the fact that you know they are able to get almost like you know a personal custom coach that trains them on these books and provides them with you know ⁓ steps from core frameworks that they're learning and things like that. So I think the impact that that personalization engine had was something that quite surprised me. ⁓ and then you know ⁓ it sort of ⁓ just gained momentum from there.

Niklas: You are probably looking more at the business and marketing side. You also have a technical co-founder, right? How do you complement each other? How does this work on a day-to-day basis?

Shruta Satam: Yes. ⁓ so you know We sort of ⁓ in terms of my technical co-founder, ⁓ I do have a technical background myself as well. So in sort of a previous life you know, I was sort of in the computer ⁓ science sort of stream. ⁓ so I think that helps from a perspective of we speak the same language, so we're able to sort of you know work around with ⁓ you know what we're trying to build, ⁓ play around with AI models and things like that. And it's been very interesting from that front that you know we do have sort. Of that commonality there, and then I think it's also the core mission, right? ⁓ so we're very sort of vested in this applied learning idea and the space. So I think that just organically helps us on a day-to-day basis as well. So we're very clear about what we want to achieve via this platform and then where we are going next in terms of you know ⁓ the changes that we're seeing in our users, the requests that we're seeing, the feedback that we are getting, ⁓ and then what are some of the next things that we are going to build to continue ⁓ building on that. loop. So I think we are very sort of ⁓ aligned from that perspective as well.

Niklas: I think with AI and you already mentioned it, we will see a huge shift in learning in general, right? So what you are doing is one part. I also think we will see like specialized tutoring. mean, in school, I always noticed that there's like this huge gap in learning speed in between people. Like you have people who learn really fast in a class, you have people that learn very slow. And I think It's not really great for both of the outliers to be in the same group because for the persons who learn the slowest, it's probably very annoying to be the last ones. And the ones that learn the fastest could be further ahead if they got personalized tutoring. What do you think would change with AI generally in the space?

Shruta Satam: Yeah. ⁓ so you know, I very strongly believe that that's sort of the future of learning and education for sure, right? ⁓ really having it customized per student at their pace, at their speed, you know, at their sort of interest level, ⁓ taking into account their challenges, their goals, all of that. ⁓ I think something like ⁓ AI and the current pace at which at which it's sort of advancing will really help with that, right? So if you think about this a couple of years back to even build something. Something like Postak and have that sort of custom action steps, it would have been a really sort of I think daunting task for us to really build this proprietary software. But then now it's it's just given the advent of AI, it's sort of helped with that. And I think that's where I see the education sort of industry going as well, is to this personalized, you know, core learning per student ⁓ and not just a cookie-cutter one-size-fits-all mechanism that's been going around for a while now, right?

Niklas: Yeah, I think that and also for you with your application, how much more what's next? Are you going more into this personalization? Are you trying to build more on the coach that you already mentioned? Where are you heading from a product perspective?

Shruta Satam: Yeah. ⁓ so two things, Niklas. We're ⁓ very, very ⁓ keen on launching a Pustak app. So right now we have this on our sort of platform, so that's one, right? But then we're really looking to sort of have this ⁓ as an app that our users can really use. ⁓ so that's one. And the second is localization ⁓ in sort of ⁓ the the Indian market. ⁓ so that's a market that we are actively, you know, we've been having conversations with some partners there and things like that to really expand Postoc for the Indian. Indian sort of ⁓ diaspora for that market, ⁓ given the amount of sort of people that are really invested and vested in sort of the learning and education back there. ⁓ And also the fact that the number of books that are being read by people there, but again with the same problem of having that application gap. So that's a market that we're very excited about in order to tap next, and that's that localization model that we're looking forward to launching.

Niklas: Do you have competitors? when you look at them, what are you doing differently? Where can you win in the longer run?

Shruta Satam: Yeah. So I think every single summary app, Niklas, that you come across, you know, would be sort of our competitor out there. The biggest ones of those are you know Blinkist and Headway, so those are two. But I think the main caveat and the main differentiator or the main USP for us has been sort of the customized actionable steps. So none of these platforms really provide per reader action steps. So the end result of that, people reading the same book. You know, get the same results, right? So that's one, and then I think the other missing element has also been the habit coach, right? So there's no platform that really comes, so you have platforms that do habit tracking separately, as you would know, ⁓ but nothing that really combines you know self help books and then the application and then the daily habit tracking in one sort of ecosystem. ⁓ so that's the other thing, and then from the localization perspective that I mentioned, ⁓ you know, for the Indian market, are looking to translate it into sort of you know the regional languages that are available there. So that's another niche area that ⁓ differentiates our product at this stage ⁓ from others in the market.

Niklas: What I sometimes wonder, ⁓ especially on books, is when I read them, I feel that if you condense them too much, you would lose a lot of context. So I understand the other parts. ⁓ I I'm more on board on the habit tracker and the other things. And for me personally, I understand if somebody just wants to have the core essence, will read a or listen to a summary of the book. But to me, on a lot of books, I would actually lose a lot of context or valuable information because it's just not that short. How do you think about that? ⁓ Can people also listen to the full book on your platform? is it only the summary?

Shruta Satam: so they can only listen to the summary of what we have sort of produced on the platform at this stage. The way that I look at this, ⁓ Niklas, is from a perspective that you know you'll always have people that love to read books. I'm one of them, right? So it's that I think that section, that segment ⁓ of sort of people will always be there and they'll always love reading books, they'll always do that. Pustac ⁓ and our platform are specifically built for people who are just so busy that you know they really want to consume a lot of self help books but don't really have the capacity. And the time to do that. Now they can often we see that they're pairing this with you know books that they are reading on in its entirety as well, or then you know using summaries from our platform. And the way that we're trying to complement this is you know by having one of the things that we're looking forward to adding in is actual links to purchase the books via our platform as well going forward. ⁓ so that's something in the trajectory, and then ⁓ the other thing, Nicholas, is that we have a very sort of ⁓ curated set of books, right? So currently we have thousand plus books, and there's a reason for that. And the reason for that is that the books that are in the platform are very niche, right? So they are way they are the trending books across each of the 15 live streams that we have. ⁓ they are esoteric books that people have not heard of as well, but that provide great value when you actually apply them. So they've been very carefully curated and hand-picked and selected by us. ⁓ and then also in terms of sort of the actual summary itself, you know, a lot of care has been taken to. ⁓ Really make sure that the essence and the core ideas and the principles, the frameworks, the methodologies of the books don't get diluted in terms of you know what we are finally providing as an output. ⁓ so a lot of sort of care has been taken to make sure that you know when you're reading the summary, you don't really miss out on a whole lot of it. Having said that, you'll always have people that will go and then read the whole book in its entirety as well, which is absolutely ⁓ alright, and again, ⁓ you know that's the way that. We look at this. ⁓ So quality over quantity has been our sort of ethos with where we are going with this.

Niklas: Currently in which markets are you available? You're in the US, right? And Australia? Or all?

Shruta Satam: Yeah. So yeah. So we are globally available. Niklas. The the the the differentiator with our localization model will be the language translation. So ⁓ that's sort of not out there currently, but something that we are working towards.

Niklas: And I also, I find it very interesting that you're going towards the market in India lot. I think it's a huge market, obviously. It's probably not one of the easier ones. How do you do a market entry into one of these countries?

Shruta Satam: Yes. ⁓ so ⁓ I think two things work for us ⁓ from this regard. You know, one is that our original sort of roots have been Indian, so we have sort of ⁓ been born and brought up there before ⁓ you know ⁓ we moved to the United States and then Australia. ⁓ so we do have those roots there and I think that n organically helps with things like connections and really understanding the Indian mindset because it's very different from ⁓ you know what you would see in ⁓ The United States or you know in Australia and sort of other places, so it's a very ⁓ sort of targeted niche ⁓ mindset that people have, a very sort of values based, ⁓ you know, ⁓ you know, a good sort of bang for your buck kind of a mentality. So you really have to target to that ⁓ you know segment there. So I think just having that background helps us from that regard, and then secondly, again the gap ⁓ of not having a platform that currently does this. For a sort of our Indian audience, right? You know, they have summary book summary platforms available to them, but all of those are you know in English. ⁓ but then all of these books that are available out there are something that people do want to read and then may not necessarily always want to read in English. So I think that's the other element that ⁓ we're hoping works in our favor. ⁓ and those are some of the conversations that we're ⁓ we've been having with our part with our partners there.

Niklas: Yeah, it's interesting. And I think also maybe your background in risk management helps a lot. What I found, I thought about it a while ago and I found it a bit counterintuitive in a sense that actually risk are a lot higher, I would say in startups than they are in a corporate in a sense, because you're always kind of face extinction if you make like wrong decisions. You're just basically alive as a startup. so the... The risk of total failure seems to be different. Do you apply something of what you did there, try to do risk some things, or how do you do that?

Shruta Satam: Yeah. ⁓ so a lot of the ⁓ core principles and the methodologies are slightly different across both, is what I feel ⁓ to that point. So, for example, in sort of the startup world, one of the things that I'll always keep in my mind is, you know, as as you would know, ⁓ the concept of pivoting. So if something is not really, you know, working well or opening the right doors, not spending too much time on that, but really pivoting early on, so that fail-fast mechanism. So I think that's something that has really worked well in what we've Been doing, but in the traditional corporate sort of ⁓ environment that I worked in previously within the risk management space, again, a lot of the things that we were trying to do were across well established sort of rules and regulations and policies. So you really did not have much scope for you know a full pivot if things didn't work. You somehow had to sort of make them work, you had to sort of you know work with the obligations that were there, the regulations that were there, and provide sort of the right risk management tools and frameworks. So I think it was quite simple. stringent ⁓ in in sort of that ⁓ that world, the corporate world that I worked with in, as opposed to having a lot more flexibility within sort of the startup space. And that's one of the core differences that I see between the two from a risk perspective.

Niklas: Yeah, I think for me, so I spent a bit of time in consulting as well and had found it always very, very interesting. And I think I learned a lot that I could apply in later things. So I would also like to understand how much your consulting background ⁓ kind of shaped your interactions with your customers and also the way you build the product.

Shruta Satam: Yeah. ⁓ so I think one of the biggest things that my consulting background taught me was problem solving, right? So really looking at ⁓ you know, a problem that we have, analyzing it, dissecting it in multiple different ways, and then providing a right optimal solution for our clients, you know, that's the core of consulting, right? So having that problem-solving mindset, I think really played a great role in ⁓ sort of, you know, while we're building Pusta. ⁓ So that's there. And the second part of it is the relationship aspect, as you mentioned, right? So just in consulting, you know, the amount of people that you get to work with, you know, every engagement is different. You get to work with, you know, different clients, you have different teams that you're leading, even the people within your team change based on an engagement-to-engagement perspective. ⁓ the leadership across clients is different, the problem is different, the solution is different, right? So it's very unique. So having all these different variables, just working with different types of people. I think really helped enhance sort of that relationship building skill ⁓ which then ⁓ I found very useful to apply while building Pustaq again. So I think those were the two key things there.

Niklas: I think in consulting we worked a lot with frameworks. Did you bring anything into your life besides the problem-solving approach but also other frameworks that you're applying a lot in your current startup life?

Shruta Satam: Yeah. So ⁓ the frameworks that we applied ⁓ a lot in consulting. So I think for me, there were the frameworks that we applied in consulting, but there were also the frameworks that I learned during my MBA and a combination of both of those, right? ⁓ Now depending on with Pustach, the way that we've tried to do it, we've applied some of the standard ones, so for example, the Perito principle or the 8020 rule, you know, all of those common ones that are there. ⁓ We'll keep those in mind as we're Building the company out, but I really wanted to have a very fresh perspective in terms of building Pustaq. So a lot of the things that I wanted to do were also guided with things like metaphysical learnings, which weren't really part of sort of my corporate background ⁓ when I was in consulting, ⁓ and then applying that. So really intuition based, gut-based, ⁓ intention focused, you know, all of that. And I thought that was the more interesting pieces being able to apply those kind of new. Esoteric learnings, in addition to some of the standard frameworks that are out there, and I think a combination of both of those was what's been working well.

Niklas: Yeah, it's interesting. If you jump over more into to Pukasch again or somebody wants to start with it and isn't really sure what would you tell a person that that now thinks about trying your app.

Shruta Satam: ⁓ so somebody who wants to start but isn't sure about trying pustak, is that the question? Yeah, yeah.

Niklas: Yeah, whether it's really worth ⁓ it, if the value will be there, they don't really know what they expect, what would you tell them?

Shruta Satam: Yeah. Yes. So I would just say that ⁓ you know the proof is in the pudding, right? ⁓ we have a seven day free trial on both of our plants ⁓ and that's the best way to really try out the platform. Right. You try it out, you know, see how it works, see whether you're getting value out of it, and then see whether ⁓ you know the action steps that are customized for you actually help make changes, right? Like see if there's an actual impact. ⁓ and I think that's the the proof right there. And if that's happening, you know, go on and ⁓ move on to sort of that full subscription.

Niklas: It's probably if you look at the profile of your customers, is it everybody in every age group or do you have a certain group of people that you say this is most valuable for?

Shruta Satam: Yeah. ⁓ so we have a mix of people, but I think the most or the majority is in the sort of the busyworking professional ⁓ segment. So it's the people working the nine to five jobs with ⁓ you know not much time, ⁓ but the ones that are really vested in increasing their productivity and maximizing their output and things like that. ⁓ so the I think the high performing, high-impact, busy working professional.

Niklas: Should I still try it if I already read the book? That's also quite... So for example if I read Atomic Habits already, do you think there's value in still signing up and trying out your application?

Shruta Satam: Yeah. Not if you're just looking for atomic habits. I would say if you're looking for, you know, other books that you haven't heard of that might help change your mindset a bit, then yes. ⁓ because again, you know, there are a lot of sort of these esoteric books out there that really provide a lot of impact and value, ⁓ in addition to the common ones like atomic habits and things like that. And then the second point is that even if someone's read out atomic habits, a lot of the time people feel like you know they they know what habit stacking is, you know, they know what Identity shifting is in terms of atomic habits, you know, become that person. Like they know all of that. But have you really applied that? Like, you know, have you done the habit stacking? You know, have you really shifted, updated your identity to become the person that you want to become? All those techniques that I mentioned in atomic habits, ⁓ how much of that have you applied? And if the answer to that is not a whole lot, then I think for someone like that, you pustak is a good ⁓ solution there. Because it makes things a lot easier. It it you know, it really helps you in that journey.

Niklas: Do I also get book recommendations? How does that work? Or do I have to find them myself?

Shruta Satam: Yeah. ⁓ that's a great question. So, ⁓ in terms of our habit coach, our habit coach, the way that we are customizing a habit coach is that you can actually type in what you're looking to achieve, and then based on that, you will get, you know, these are the sort of action steps and these are the books that it's sort of selected those from. ⁓ and then those would be sort of your personalized recommendations. So it's kind of out there from that perspective, but we really want to enhance this. So as we continue evolving the product, we we do want to have it. as a whole custom journey end to end. So you know really these are the books at this stage and then the next stage and so on. So we have that in the back of our mind, but we're really prioritizing some of the key features first before we go to that. So you have personalized books to a certain extent but it's via the PUSA coach.

Niklas: Yeah, so this coach, is it one of the newer features that seems to be quite instrumental or becoming more and more of a core of your offering, right? How does it happen or how does this get shaped?

Shruta Satam: So that's the habit tracker, ⁓ Niklas. So basically, so we are calling it the Pusta Coach, but it's the habit tracker. ⁓ and but when I say so, when I say habit tracker, I think it sounds very limited, but what it's doing is it's doing a lot more, right? So for example, the example that I just gave is you're actually typing in what you want to do or what you want to become, ⁓ and it's giving you those recommendations and it's giving you those steps to then add into your habit dashboard. So it's you're having that back and forth interaction from that. sort of put a coach perspective. So yes, we are very excited about sort of this feature and I do think it has the potential to ⁓ you know become one of the core as you mentioned in addition to you know just sort of the personal steps. The personalized steps again ⁓ has been well received but I think for us the metric that was missing was then what's the w you know, how much of what what's the actual impact, right? How much of this has then actually been applied by people?

Niklas: And what is your feedback? how much do people actually use or how much do they learn of the habits that they have in the habit tracker?

Shruta Satam: Yeah. So ⁓ you know, ⁓ the feedback is is one thing. So again, and the metrics are another. The metrics that we have been capturing in the platform, you know, tell a very clear story in terms of before the action steps. We had people clicking through a large number of books and then that was it. But then after the action steps, you know, they're actually spending a lot more time per book on the platform, you know, within that. So so that in itself tells us a lot about ⁓ the the the the thing that they're grasping via the action steps, right? ⁓ The habit tracker again, you know, we're still sort of in the early stages of capturing metrics and things around that. But we're interested in seeing what comes out as a feedback from that bit. ⁓ I think it'll be a game changer and it'll also help us think about what we want to focus on next in addition to the localization bit. So stay tuned for that as is what I would say.

Niklas: Maybe as a last question, when you switched over to starting a startup, what surprised you the most? So what's the thing that was most unexpected to you?

Shruta Satam: Yeah. So what surprised me the most was ⁓ you know you have all these ga great products, right, and tools out there. People have not really heard about them and they they they're not they're not aware that these exist. ⁓ these are great technically built products and you know ⁓ with great UIs and things like that. But then I think the marketing bit and the importance of the marketing and branding is what was a bit I wouldn't say surprising, but was an interesting dynamic is the amount of effort it's not just important to build a good product but really ⁓ to have people ⁓ hear about it, know about it, try it out, ⁓ and then you know, evolve your product from their perspective. I think that was a key ⁓ niche learning, something that I'd heard before, but then when it comes to actually applying ⁓ it to your own ⁓ startup, it's a completely different ⁓ sort of dynamic, right? So I think that that's something that was very interesting for me to hear, to find out.

Niklas: Yeah, I think this is everybody who has ever launched a product knows that it's not like the Big Bang that you think about, but it's like the product is there. And first of all, nobody cares. You have to make it visible to people to get some traction, to get some customers. So that is a large part of the work. Thank you so much, Ruta, for being on the podcast. It was lovely to have you.

Shruta Satam: Yeah, thank you so much. This is great.