Shann Biglione: Hello, welcome back to The Overthinkers, I am Shan. How are you doing today, Lynette? Lynette: And I'm Vanette. I am doing great, because the sun is finally out. Shann Biglione: Not just in New York, it's also in Vermont. I like it. Lynette: Finally, I know we're so excited to get our garden going. I have, you know, always had this kind of micro dream of growing our own food. So this is very exciting. Shann Biglione: ⁓ yeah, because you don't like to buy it in stores from big corporations, is that the problem? Lynette: ⁓ what a good tee up for today's episode. Shann Biglione: Yeah, today we're to talk about capitalism and anti-capitalism. There's a pretty substantial trend amongst marketeers to be quite mindful ⁓ of they market. And I think we've discussed in this podcast with Rachel in the past, are there lines in the center and things that you would not advertise? So there's a moral component to marketing something. But I think there's a kind of a bigger question ⁓ as we Marketers being mostly urban dwellers, generally speaking, being in environments that are a bit more leaning towards, call it socialist systems in instances, not to say every market is on the left, that'll be absurd, ⁓ but is definitely kind of a tendency to embrace what is described as lefty views and going as far as being anti-capitalist. definitely have a people on my network who would describe themselves, you might. yourself included, describe yourself as an anti-capitalist. And the question of today is whether it is compatible to be a marketeer who is here to benefit from a market economy and to push things and try to drive growth within the companies they work for, and at the same time being an anti-capitalist. I think it's a big question. I'm not sure we're going to make everything in 20 minutes. But before we even get to that, and I think it's very important to discuss the definitions here. Lynette: Ha ha ha. Shann Biglione: And I'm saying this as someone who's, I'm a liberal. and I think we should be transparent about that on the podcast since we're discussing something. So I'm a liberal, but I am a capitalist. And I do take issue when people on the right, you know, for instance, kind of attack a Benny Sanders or whatever as a socialist as if socialism was a single form of communist Russia, for instance. ⁓ you know, semantically yes, socialism comes from that. And I think there is merit in kind of, ⁓ Lynette: Mm-hmm. Me too. So true. Shann Biglione: thinking of that term and being careful of what it could get to. But, you know, I'm still a capitalist, even though I like some of the socialist programs when we have, you know, shared goods and public means and whatnot. And so I believe in government. I don't think it's, you know, magical. I don't think it's going to solve everything. should be, I don't think it should be everywhere, but I do think we need government and regulations and rules and taxes and things and, and shared interests. And that makes me in the eyes of some people socialist and they will brand it very quickly as something that is immediately bad. You're a Russian. Lynette: Hehehe. Shann Biglione: ⁓ Now, I'm going to flip this because I feel like sometimes we have a very labeling when we think of capitalism. And I think there's a lot of people who feel very, very inclined to call themselves anti-capitalists without always necessarily understanding the ⁓ that capitalism can represent. And I'd love to have a little bit of definition for you. ⁓ What capitalism and what makes you, I believe, a bit of an anti-capitalist? Lynette: ⁓ boy. I mean, number one, I love ⁓ big question, this big oxymoron. Can marketers be anti-capitalist? Wow. ⁓ think ⁓ definition of capitalism is growth, right? It's about putting capital in the center and the goal of that is growing that capital, right? ⁓ And I think ⁓ there are things that are amazing with capitalism. There is the scale. Shann Biglione: Mm-hmm. Okay. Mm-hmm. Lynette: There's a skill that you can only achieve as a big corporation. For example, McDonald's. Because at the skill at which they operate, when they say we are only using free range chickens, free range eggs, that changes the entire agricultural system in America. So you're like, okay, there's some powers and skill when you have benevolent actors at that skill. ⁓ love the connectedness of capitalism, the globality, the accessibility and the convenience. Having worked both in Southeast Asia to see that a packet of laundry detergent can finally be made at such a cost because you're creating it at scale and the convenience that that gives a mother living somewhere, that's amazing. So I think there are, to me, a lot of benefits of capitalism and growth and scale. Shann Biglione: Hmm. Lynette: However, and let's get to your definition, but however, I think for me, the anti-capitalist tendencies come when it's growth at what cost, right? Growth at the cost of everything else. And before we talk about that, let's get your definition of capitalism. Shann Biglione: Right. Yeah. Yeah, I try because there's a long history of capitalism. A good friend, Mark, recommended a book I'm currently reading called Capitalism. And there's a history, it's fascinating. I'm a few hundred pages in a 1,500 page document. So I think there is a lot more to it. I tend to kind of get back to, believe in the market economy. I believe in currency. I believe in private property. I believe in exchanges. I believe in trade. Lynette: Hmm. Das Kapital. Yeah. Shann Biglione: And for me, fundamentally, I do believe in growth. Not necessarily to your point that growth has to be a single variable dimension for this, I do think that growth is a natural human ⁓ That's going to be hard to say no to. ⁓ And I think growth necessary for things to progress in advanced journey speaking. And for me, when I think of capitalism, so I am not for an unregulated libertarian version of capitalism. In French, we call it liberal economics. Now it doesn't necessarily work in English because liberalism is it's a different tone. But when we come up of liberal economics in French, it's just like, these are people who just say like, you know, just don't impose any roles, let the market decide everything. The market is smarter. And I do think it's important to realize that there are. Lynette: Mm-hmm. Shann Biglione: good arguments in some of that, that sometimes having a more evolutionary system is not necessarily a bad thing and we can over-regulate or over-think or over-design certain things. But equally, I also believe that those systems tend to congregate across accumulation of wealth, concentration of power in ways that are non-productive. And so for me, the biggest problem across systems is more a question of power control, whether it's a communist system, a governmental system, Lynette: Yep. Shann Biglione: or an economic system like capitalism and how we find a way to kind of figure that out. But that still doesn't make me an anti-capitalist. For me, I am still going to be a capitalist who believes in market economy. I believe in the worth of having brands, companies, corporations. I just want to make sure we've put some controls into that. And so that is where my definition is going to land. And I'm going to be clearly the capitalist on the conversation here. And I don't have any issues being a marketeer for that reason. Now, whether you use it like any weapon, you can use it to do certain things that you Lynette: Yeah. Hahaha. Shann Biglione: do want to push or do not want to push, that is from your personal choice and so on. But I think it is very hard for a marketeer who relies and is frankly a core engine of that system to wake up and decide, you know what, being in tech, this is really where I land. Like, I mean, at some point, I think it's better off going to Vermont and working for sausage companies potentially. But yeah, that would be kind of my starting point. And I really feel like it's important. Lynette: you Shann Biglione: for marketeers who see themselves as anti-capitalism to realize that we are potentially throwing the baby with the bathwater when we label our things as anti-capitalist. I think there's a lot of good things to do with capitalism. I think there's good things that have been achieved with capitalism. I think there's very bad things that have happened because of capitalism. The environment being for me the number one problem in terms of how we consume resources and we have very questions to answer. Capitalism better thinking, needs better Lynette: Mm-hmm. Yep. Shann Biglione: And I don't think starting as a I am an anti-capitalist is going to be the constructive thing people think it's going to be. Lynette: ⁓ you're right. We are operating within the system, right? And as marketers who find a market, right? And who grow the market, it is, and keep the market, right? ⁓ That is our That is what we do. And I think, if you think about the companies though, that when they gain too much growth, when they prioritize growth above all else, ⁓ Shann Biglione: Mm-hmm. Lynette: ⁓ They start to also consolidate power, greed, and you have oligarchies, which in the end of the day don't benefit consumers, right? Because, for example, you have shrinkflation, which is a massive thing. And then you also have oligarchies and monopolies, right? For example, now with Spirit going away just yesterday, announces they are removing all food and drink service ⁓ flights below, I think, 300 miles, right? So it's almost like the second Spirit goes away, ⁓ It's like, how can we trim and shave more things? And usually, know, shareholders benefit and companies bottom lines to get better, but the consumers, right? The people who marketers as consumer champions, right? Are supposed to kind of be, you know, rallying for and reaching and et cetera. They are the ones who are not benefiting from capital capitalism in the definition of growth at all costs. Right? And if you look again at the opposite, if you look at some other companies where, for example, Ursa Major, they could grow. Their massive ⁓ beauty company found the perfect market of women above right, skincare, right? There's so much ⁓ beauty being to youth and older, but what about that in between in a way that's sustainable and natural? And they came up, I think a couple of years ago and said, you know what, we are de-growing. Shann Biglione: Hmm. Lynette: We could scale, we could grow, but we realized that the impact it would have on our employees, on our supply chain, cetera, is not worth the cost. And so we're going to re-reach this market, If ⁓ we like Tam Sam Psalm, right? We've reached the Psalm, and you know what? We're really happy here. We're going, this is where we create the value that we wanna create ⁓ without expense or the cost on other things, right? So there is a choice. Shann Biglione: When you say that they're do you mean that they're going to decide that they don't want to make more money year on year? Ever? Lynette: I, you know, they didn't say that, I think it's, they've, I'll send you the article, but they basically were like, I think we've reached the revenue that we wanna hit. Right, and that's the thing. Do you need, when is enough enough? How much do you really need? Right, and you know, arguably, know, growing is hard, but retention is harder, right? And keeping your customer, and you know, is more important, as we all know, 65 % of revenue. Shann Biglione: Wow. Mm. Lynette: comes from your repeat customers and keeping them compromising on your product, on your service is really hard as companies keep growing and scaling. So think there is something about saying enough is enough, we're gonna grow to this amount. ⁓ And even if you look at ⁓ in ⁓ defluencers a big thing. They're kind of going, okay, how do you... ⁓ Do you really need so much? Do you really need that, et cetera? And how do we have, you have a lot more conscious consumers out there in the world. And if you're truly a marketer who understands those shifts in culture and the market, that you're starting to also market that way or choosing products fit that new market, right? The new consumer that's emerging, so. Shann Biglione: Well, I mean, there's a few things to respond to here. The first one, the Delta example, for me, this is one of the beauties of capitalism and market economies. If you don't like it, don't fly Delta. And if it really is an important thing, no, but let's be clear. I don't give a damn about my snacks and drinks, frankly, in Delta. That is not the reason I fly with an airline. I typically choose based on whatever is cheaper. And if that makes the flight cheaper, I'm okay with it. This is kind of the Ryanair cynical view of it, but there is a reason why Ryanair is still in business. Lynette: Yeah, love it. Yeah, vote with your money. True, but do you really think Delta is going to make their prices lower? Shann Biglione: I think it is part of the variables. mean, also understand that right now they have some issues with, with gas prices, which might kind of influence a little bit further than that. But the bottom line is they're in a competition economy. Now, if there was a true monopoly, which they're regulations against, that's a different question, but we do have for most routes, some other options and frankly, they're competing. And if that's, that is not a strong competitive advantage to have your snacks on board, then they'll remove it. If it is, then they'll be forced to bring it back. I do like that. And I think, you know, I do keep, I do put trust in consumers telling us what they want. And that's one of the big issues I have when people tell about, you know, shit products sell great. like, that's not true. They're good enough for a lot of people that want them. Now I'm not going to argue that, you know, popularity doesn't have more structural things for such as, for instance, how we have created a price structure that makes really shit food in the U S making more affordable and therefore more mainstream, if you will. But that's for me. Lynette: Mm-hmm. Shann Biglione: It's like a different question than the marketers question in this case. But generally by and large, I think it is important to trust people. ⁓ look at the products from big brands, they tend to be well rated. People don't want to buy tight because it doesn't clean your clothes well. They buy it because they figured out it was pretty good, good price, it's they know it. Of course, there's some mental principles that marketers have played with that make it there, but it is still a good product in my opinion. And I think saying like, The number one brands in most markets are not good is delusional with my view there. ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now to the degrowth and the defluencer. For me, would qualify, great. mean, if there are markets where you want to try to address that, great. But I think the concept of degrowth, now I'm not an economist, but I've been alter. ⁓ Lynette: True. Yeah, which is why they've managed to retain all these people, which is great. Mm-hmm. Shann Biglione: economist followers ever since I was a student, you know, being raised in a very left-wing family. I just don't think that is even sustainable, funnily enough. And I don't mean this is like sustainability for the environment. Like that is the part that it does pretty well. The problem is I don't think the human brain and the human ambition is designed to embrace degrowth. I just don't think that's a thing. I don't think it's even helpful. for us. I do think that modes of consumption, the kind of quality we consume, the environmental impact of the things we consume, that are variables that I think as we become more mature societies and as people and whatnot, I'm hoping, I mean, clearly the US took a step back a couple of years ago, but a ago actually wasn't even that long, damn, that feels long. ⁓ But ⁓ do think there is ⁓ reality that Lynette: Feels forever. Shann Biglione: we don't like to go backwards. We just don't in most respects. And it's on us to find models and consumption systems that drive this. And I'll give you a very practical example. It is completely possible for me to grow a model by becoming a more environmentally friendly person. ⁓ At the moment, it's a problem. It cost me more to be environmentally friendly. But that growth is meaningful. And let's be clear, I have never seen so far a system that was in true degrowth where Lynette: Mm-hmm. Shann Biglione: let's call it, like it drives into a mini depression where people are happy and don't put really fucked up people in power. ⁓ I don't think human societies like the idea that their kids are going to have less than they do. That is not something we like to have, right? I don't think we're electing the Mamdanes of this world on the principle that we will all have less. And so I think it is a bit ⁓ hypocritical in the degrowth system. Lynette: Mm-hmm. Shann Biglione: kind of pretend that it's something that's kumbaya and it's going to be great, but I don't think it's the case. And in the case of this company, I don't know them. will intentionally read the article for sure, but you know, I'm pretty sure there's a version of that where they're to see themselves doing better and that they see that there is a merit in doing this because it'll give them a better market. It's going to be a better fit for the market. And that's great, but that is not degrowth for me. It's just a better kind of growth. And better growth for me is more interesting than degrowth. Lynette: Mm-hmm. think that's really interesting because I think when I say degrowth, it means that you de-prioritize growth by the one metric that capitalism favors above all things, which is financial, which is money, which is the bottom line. And so as you're saying, I agree with you that yes, the human ⁓ the human spirit is about progress and about expansion, right? ⁓ does it always have to be about the bottom line of money, which is where capitalism ⁓ Shann Biglione: Financial. Lynette: is that that's the metric. know, because when you think about degrowth in terms of, ⁓ that bottom line, it does give you space, opportunity, energy, capital that's then put into other forms and dimensions of growth, as you're talking about earlier, that may be more beneficial to humans, right? Which is, you know, I think it's a powerful moment when we try and operate within the system for ⁓ and businesses to get really creative. about how do we create a circular economy, right? How do our products get more sustainable? How do they get more circular? How do we impact people less? How do we impact the right? You know, and there's ways to get creative that I think marketers should get really excited by, right? Like it's easy, you're to sell something that already exists. It's harder to sell something new, but that's the stuff that me really excited at least, you know. that there's this quote from Octavia Butler who's, ⁓ you know, author of Parable of the Sower and she's a dystopian writer and the quote is, there is nothing new under the sun, but there are new suns. And I just love this thinking of there are other ways, other frameworks in which we can operate. So, yeah. Shann Biglione: Hmm. Hmm. I love that. I think for me, the big distinction is that, yes, the financial aspect does matter a ton. there is, and that's one of the core part of the history of capitalism, there is a tendency, because it's mostly monetary and ⁓ to have an accumulation of wealth being at the core. And I do understand ⁓ the accumulation wealth can be seen as a negative. And I think there's definitely some ⁓ negative, on a personal level. Lynette: Mm-hmm. Shann Biglione: Um, on an individual level, let's put it this way, um, uh, the billionaire class and whatnot. And I'm not an anti-billionaire by the way, either, but like, I understand that there is clearly something a bit twisted when somebody could be worth as much as a Musk, for instance. And it creates weird balance power structures. Um, that being said though, I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I think these are trivialization of the problem. Lynette: Mm-hmm. Yeah, to have the same GDP as country. ⁓ Shann Biglione: I find them, good marketing arguments to an extent, but I don't think they're good philosophical arguments for me just yet, because they're comparing apples and oranges a little bit on this one. But there are issues. That being said though, I do think the idea that being anti-capitalist is going to be the solution. For me, being anti-capitalist is just a rejection of the fundamentals of capitalism. It could be a rejection of that pure monetary feature. I do believe that there's a version of capitalism that fully allows that. I'll, you know, I think there's many, many ways to show that it allows that. You know, you take organic farming is compatible with a market economy and capitalism and should not just be a thing that's enforced. It's just, think there's ways to create demand for that. The fact that Amazon own Whole Foods, which for those of you who not in the US, know, Whole Foods, love it or hate it, but Whole Foods are very, very interesting standards in terms of the types of foods they're going to. sell you, generally speaking, their brands, will not list because they use certain ingredients. have entire things about sustainability of the fishing and the welfare of the animals and all those things. Now, is it perfect? No, but there are ways in which ⁓ does subscribe to that. for that aspect of saying you're a marketeer and you're an anti-capitalist, I ⁓ do the energy and the philosophies and the drives Lynette: Absolutely. Shann Biglione: Can we make sure we look, yes, at being profitable because it does matter for surviving, whether we like it or not, but not only and make sure we don't do it completely at the expense of other things. And I think, you know, companies being good citizens and whatnot, it is something that matters. And here's the best part of this for me, if we're doing this as a culture, because I really think the problem is cultural more than economical in this case, but if as a culture, we start to say, we want to value those things and we want to incentivize the value of those things, in which case, by the way, marketers play Lynette: Yeah. Shann Biglione: can play a big role, I do think we can get into better outcomes as a ⁓ if you will. And so for me, I have decided to label myself as someone who is pro-capitalism, will defend some of capitalism that is for a version of it, that is tries to be more understanding and knowledgeable about the fact extract right now resources. It has done it through slavery. It has done it through environmental resources that it really extracted for free for a longest time. And a lot of the wealth that we have right now is the backbone on those people, ⁓ natural resources of people which is able to puck and say, this is mine now, and I'll just make it work for my own personal gain. These are ⁓ issues, both historically and sometimes contemporarily of what's happening with capitalism. But for us to fight for a better version of capitalism than trying to say that capitalism is just a shit concept. I don't think capitalism is a shit concept. I think it's innately ⁓ very compatible concept. Lynette: Mm-hmm. Shann Biglione: It's on us to make it better, what to make it work towards growth that we care a bit more about. Lynette: Yeah, I agree. I'm not, I think as we're speaking to, know, I'm not anti-capitalist, right? And I think it's, right. It's about finding that new form, whatever the label, social capitalist, et cetera. But you're right that, that change needs to happen in terms of, you're talking about extraction of resources, et cetera, but I think fundamentally, culturally, structurally, economically, there needs to come a reckoning of there are finite resources on this planet, right? And that growth the expense of all of these finite resources, whether it's planetary or whether it's people, et cetera, is not. ⁓ Shann Biglione: Yeah. Lynette: Sustainable, right? And it forces us to be more creative. I like the Whole Foods example you bring out, et cetera. I think there's progress over perfection, right? We need to be shifting this over time. And marketers, you're right, play that really powerful role at the intersection of business and culture, right? Of being a consumer champion and being a protector of the business. And I think, is that a role then for us of being You know, we are your long-term profit protectors, Because we, you know, as we think about... Shann Biglione: I mean, we often are labeling as chief growth officer is one of the ways people like to relabel themselves at some point in their marketing careers as well. Anyway, sorry, I'm interrupting. Lynette: Yeah, like myself, you I think there's good growth, right? There's growth. Yeah, there's good growth. There's multidimensional growth. There's growth on the triple bottom line. And ⁓ old adage of what isn't ⁓ isn't done. And putting into place a lot ⁓ of ways of measuring growth is important. And I think as a marketer, doing that, is something that is in our remit when we think about effectiveness, when we think about impact, something we can do. We can think about, you know, as we help our brands and companies charge a premium for things, where does that premium really come from? Right. ⁓ it comes from the consumer ⁓ something new, something different, right? Maybe something that is more sustainable, maybe something that helps their community, maybe something that channels the money back into their neighborhood. There are different ways and very creative ways of thinking about what does a premium mean? Right? think there's also a good push as marketers about genuine innovation and differentiation, right? Like, you you think about, yes, do we ⁓ need another energy drink? You know, or is it a kind of energy drink that is truly differentiated, that truly serves a need that is unmet? Shann Biglione: Yeah. Lynette: Right? I think it really pushes when you think about a world which has finite resources, right? That isn't just growth because we can, it really forces you to, God, we got to do our jobs better. You know? Shann Biglione: Well, the market is brutal and will tell you pretty much and punch you in the face, which is one of things that I love about it, by the way. I think it's just like the fact that, do we need another 8-inch drink? Well, the market will tell you pretty quickly if you did need one or not. And there are eight years a lot of people try, fail. And so ⁓ think something very Darwinian that is built into ⁓ the itself. Now, I'm not a Darwinian economist to the point of like everything should be Lynette: Yes, yes, very true. Mm-hmm. capitalism. Shann Biglione: done in Darwinian fashion, but it does have that nod to, hmm, the system will have to find a way to balance somewhere. And I think, look, you're familiar with China as well, obviously, it was fascinating for me to see a country like China evolving and investing out of necessity because they could not keep polluting the air the people were living in. I've lived in Shanghai when the air was not good ⁓ and ⁓ it was fun, know, to check every morning my app. about what is the exactly, understanding how bad it is. And I didn't want to have a kid there for that reason. Like there were a lot of variables and a lot of people were pissed off and it just, ultimately they were forced to kind of get improvements. Now they're number one in the world for EVs, for photovoltaic and all those things, because they also saw an economic opportunity as much as a human requirement for things to do. Now, clearly China is not perfect either, but I think it's a good example that if we were to try to use the forces a little bit more. Lynette: PSIs, yep. Shann Biglione: rather than trying to say the forces of the problem. think we could potentially try to potentially better outcome. And for me, my key recommendation to marketers, because there are going to be people listening to us today who are feeling that anti-capitalism probably agree with us on some of those points. For can you yourself to a point of freedom where you can say no to certain things you don't want to market? I do think marketing has power. I think it would be hypocritical to say marketing doesn't have power at the same time we're trying to measure our impact. We believe that it has power. What do you want to this power to good use for? That is for me the primary question. But you are going to be as a marketeer who is here to drive growth of something. You want to have more people buying organic foods. Great. That is a form of growth. How do we marketeers try to feel okay with that? Because it's very hard to be not okay with any growth of any form. There are things we would like to see more successful. Lynette: Mm-hmm. Shann Biglione: If you really care that much, it's about how we figure out how we put our energy towards those aspects for me. Lynette: Totally. Yeah, and you're right. Yes, being able to choose what the products you sell, but even if not, right. I do think there are ways that you can also market responsibly. And there's a great book by Lola Bakar, Responsible Marketing, where is about, even as you market something, ⁓ ensuring there's transparency, and this is ⁓ outside that, but also ⁓ that not targeting vulnerable communities. ⁓ You know, we are so good at our jobs as marketers, right? To like really know how to manipulate humanity and their emotions and their behaviors and their everything that it is like you said. No, no, but it is truly human psychology, right? And I think, you know, you're right about it is a superpower. And, you know, how do we make sure that even as we do that, we are, you know, pushing. Shann Biglione: Mockers wish they were that good. Lynette: pushing marketing to be responsible and to be inclusive and to even the mediums in which we market on can be as innovative as the message itself, right? Shann Biglione: Yeah. There is a, let me ask you this, because we're obviously kind of leaning a little bit towards like we want marketing to be a bit more walk, which would trigger its entire world of reactions and to an extent for fair measure. So I remember Rory Sutherland kind of pointing out that we would never see an NRA campaign winning the Cannes awards, even though it could be the best ever performing. And there is a great in that. And I do understand his point as much as I don't like the NRA myself. And I do have a personal opinion. regarding the NRA, the truth of the matter is if we're really rating marketing on the grounds of how good the marketing was, why cannot we see that, right? And I think we have to be a little mindful of that aspect because, you know, marketing has gotten into this stage where we've started to push brands to where it has to be purposeful, societal, good type of marketing, all the ways to work. The truth of the matter is it is not a requirement for growth. And there are things that are happening in products that we don't necessarily like. Lynette: Mm-hmm. Shann Biglione: And I see this a little bit less as a requirement for marketing as a whole to refuse to work on those things, but more to allow the people, it's a bit naive, I'll give you that, but to at least, I think there's a personal choice there, more than a category wide choice, because the truth of the matter is that there are points of view different from ours, which people might be fine with. And so I think there's an agency's... go through that tension sometimes where people are like, you know, they're big enough so can say like, sorry guys, but I'm not going to work on that. I, for instance, did not want to work on animal abuse type businesses. That is something that was a bit close to me, but that aspect, I think is is an individual stuff, but I do think it's important to know that it's a cultural battle we're having. I genuinely think so. And whether we think those woke concept and I'm not anti-woke at all. I'm, I like to remind people, most of us are woke one way or another and we forget it, but like, you know, what it is that Lynette: ⁓ absolutely. Shann Biglione: we're trying to establish as a culture and how we can win this. I think it's going to be a lot about how we also recognize ⁓ tools of what we do. so maybe sometimes have things that we don't like also being marketed with success ⁓ is also how we learn, right? ⁓ Rory's point. ⁓ Lynette: Yeah. Yeah, no, I love that article. You I think you shared with me and about how, yeah, do marketers just self, do we hate ourselves? Right? Yeah, yeah. And I think it's really interesting because, you know, I grew up in Ogilvy, right? We sell or else. And I, you know, I completely am all about... Shann Biglione: ⁓ There's definitely a lot of self-loathing in marketing. Mm-hmm. Lynette: about that, which is we sell or else. That is what we do. And if it doesn't sell, then what's the point? But once again, on the other side, it is your own personal choice, as you're saying, and purpose of what do you wanna sell? How do you wanna sell it? I think, yes, you can sell or else, there's how you wanna sell it, what do you wanna sell, who do you wanna sell to, ⁓ being very clear with some of those things ⁓ understanding. the market at the end of the day. And look, this is not just personal, this is factual that once again, that I believe there are finite resources and the world is coming to a reckoning that we need to demand better and we need to do differently. And so as that market changes, know the market, right? Know the signs and you know, there's short term and there's long term, right? So there's kind of where do you wanna play? Where do you want to put your trust and your energy into? So, yeah. Shann Biglione: 100%. 100%. All right. Well, I think we're a bit over time, but that's, think that's an episode that we could do part two and three pretty easily, but I really enjoyed that conversation. ⁓ was very fun. And important conversation. And I love, you know, we're going to publish this, of course, if there's any listeners who have an opinion, you can post about it. ⁓ Also, if you have a very informed perspective on this, maybe we could do a guest episode. So if anyone listening has a... Lynette: Absolutely. Shann Biglione: a partly enlightened perspective on this. We'd love to have you on the podcast. I don't think this is the end of this conversation for sure. This is a tension that's been not, not, I've seen it happening for the last 10, 15 years already and it's not over. So we'll see where that goes. Lynette, thank you so much for your time. ⁓ ideas ⁓ good heart. ⁓ I'll speak to you next week. Lynette: Yes, please. ⁓ completely. Thank you, Shen. We'll see you next time. Bye.