Shann Biglione: Hi everyone. back to the I am Shan. ⁓ That was take four. I to say on today. How are you doing, Lina today? Better than me on this Monday morning, hope. Lynette: And I'm Lynette. Yeah ⁓ my gosh, I know, Monday morning, take four, just to get a hello out of us. ⁓ my God, this is fun. Shann Biglione: Yeah, podcaster right there. ⁓ was just showing me your wonderful back garden. The listeners cannot see. ⁓ actually, you know, we're doing a bit of video right now. You mind turning your video just in case we do a video version. All right. Like I'm putting on the spot right here. Yes. So for those of you who are going to see the video, yeah, it's a beautiful garden. see Vermont there. Ooh. Lynette: ⁓ my goodness. All right, let's see a little. Yeah. Yeah, we took down a no, ⁓ took down a tree this weekend, got the in. It's finally spring. So very excited. Shann Biglione: Very cool. And you're going to put some fruit trees, you said, this garden. Huh? Okay. ⁓ Lynette: ⁓ definitely. I'm gonna be fruit maxing and I'm gonna be tomato maxing and I'm gonna be, you know, soil maxing and everything. So. ⁓ my. Shann Biglione: So yes, the topic of the day, maxing, something I have not got into. Clearly, this is a video format. can see there is no looks maxing going on right now. ⁓ So yeah, tell us a little bit more about what this maxing trend is about. I think I need to inform myself a little bit on this one before I tell you if I think it's a danger. Lynette: Yes. Totally, totally. And that's a big question today, right? Which is, ⁓ maxing. Is it a trend or is it a danger? Right? Where does it come from? Why is it happening? Where is it going to go? What do businesses and brands have to do about it? Right? ⁓ okay. Maxing. You know, self-improvement, I think is not a new concept. But the idea of being able to max everything at the level of excess of knowledge and information that we all have today, right? You have so many people you can turn to. The self-improvement and maxing is not just one dimension that you're trying to max out, right? And optimize in your life, right? It's sleep maxing. You've got looks. So, you know, where I was born came from a little bit of the Manosphere world, right? Shann Biglione: Fantastic source. I'm excited already. Lynette: ⁓ my gosh, I know. ⁓ my God, that Netflix show, whoo, left me kind of like reeling. Anyway, it came from the Manosphere world looks maxing, where you've got soft maxing and then hard maxing, which requires surgery. You've got ⁓ jaw maxing, bone You've got, you know, all the kinds of maxing. have a list of all the maxing here. You've got, it started from there in some way. And then it started going to, you know, more adjacent worlds of wellness. Some of it's not terrible. Right? Fiber maxing, protein maxing, you've got fit maxing, and then it goes into the cognitive space, right? Cognitive maxing, where you talk about your neuro rituals and, you know, all the creatine that you take, productivity maxing and all the workflow optimizations. You've got money maxing, RIS maxing, right? You've got protein maxing. I think I already said that one. You even have min maxing, which is minimal maxing. Yes, which is basically decluttering. Shann Biglione: min-maxing. Okay. Lynette: but done in the most optimal way, right? So it's interesting. And I think, you know, there are lots of dimensions to it. I think it creates a lot of pressure, right? A lot of anxiety. And I'd love to get into ⁓ we think it's happening. ⁓ I also think there are some positives in the way in which it's evolved over time, right? That I've watched this trend grow. So now, for example, the ones that I'm most excited by are things like China Maxing. Shann Biglione: Hmm. Hmm, interesting. Lynette: and nonamexing, which is all about lifestyle and aesthetic, right? Trying to live your life like a China baddie. So I love it. You've got all these Western women being like, I'm in my Chinese era right now where know, boiling, double boiling chicken soup with, you know, jujubes and wolfberries, things my mama used to make, right? ⁓ Shann Biglione: Okay. Pretty delicious. As someone who did it in China, I subscribe to it. Lynette: Right, totally, absolutely. know, and non-amaxing, which is living like an Italian grandma. You live slow. Shann Biglione: ⁓ so it is really because that's where I was gonna say really think okay cool tell me more Lynette: Oh, totally, totally. You wake up in the morning and you take a walk and you chatter with your friends and you pick your tomatoes and basil. I think, so there are some, it maybe started from a very pressure oriented place, but I start to see some interesting evolutions of it go into culture and people looking for other ways to live life. I think the idea of Shann Biglione: Mmm. Lynette: maximizing and optimizing your life by looking for alternative lifestyles. I think that's a great exploration and a great evolution of something that altogether was born from, I mean, this is my take, born from a need for control. Right? And we talked about it in our previous episode about can marketers be anti-capitalist, which is, know, interesting. ⁓ So we watch that. I mean, Shann Biglione: Mmm. Lynette: Listen to that. But it's the lack of control in today's world then always brings the focus back and the locus of control to the individual, right? Into everything that you can control. You can control your calorie. You can control, you know, your every little thing. And suddenly it brings it back to the hyperlocal again. Right? So think that's where all this maxing comes from is if I can't change the world, I can change myself little bits, little bits at a time. Shann Biglione: Lizzie to the hair. Lynette: And I think that's really interesting of just bring, yeah. Shann Biglione: But let me ask why maxing it? What is the, what is like, it's for me, you know, it feels like very otaku style Japanese, like, I'm going to go really heavy on this thing. But, but what is the drive? I, know, getting your fibers is great. Getting some sleep is good. Your looks, I think we can put into the bucket. That's going to be pretty universally regarded as something a bit weird in terms of people, know, crushing their jaws just to kind of get there. But hey. Lynette: Totally. Shann Biglione: whatever, but like, why does it suddenly to, is it relabeling just current trends and just putting a maxing spin on it? Lynette: Interesting question. think part of the Maxing culture comes from once again, you're kind of optimizing for the algorithm Not just for your life, Cuz you're right a little bit of sleep is good a little bit of you know This is that but that doesn't that doesn't get the algorithm excited that doesn't you know that like Shann Biglione: ⁓ huh. Okay. Mmm. It's not extreme enough. Lynette: Exactly. It's not extreme enough. And I think that's where we start to see maxing get into a bit of that danger zone, right? Which is just a little bit's not enough. Moderation's not enough. If you're going to do something, you better max it out. Right? And that's the only way you get followers. That's the only way that, you know, the algorithm is going to bump your content up. And I think that's a little bit of the danger is when you start to, yeah, max things out, like you're a product. Shann Biglione: Hmm. Lynette: Right? And that's also part of today's culture of social media. You're a brand, you're a product. And so you're your own startup. You're your own video game character where you can tweak every little bit of yourself a little bit, every dimension, right? And then starts to get into that, you know, maxing out world. What do you think? Shann Biglione: Well, mean, I'll respond as a father. hope my son doesn't get too heavily into that. So I think that that tells you a lot when you get that, that impression of things that you don't know. don't know if, but you know, I, I'm not going to control what he gets into or not really. The, I like the idea that people are finding motivatrons, you know, and, know, look, a lot of people who go to the gym, for instance, have been in this culture. Lynette: Yeah. Yeah. Shann Biglione: bodybuilding is basically an early adopter of a maxing trend that was going after something specific, dedicated. And I think having that sense of control, as you said, definitely not opposed to it. ⁓ think this is like, this is just one of these classical situations when you can clearly see that ⁓ ⁓ substances, ⁓ it's your motivation or your Kool-Aid ⁓ on those topics. Lynette: Totally. Shann Biglione: clearly is not going to be super, super powerful. I thought what was super interesting is how, know, as you just responded, that aspect that it is ⁓ likely a result ⁓ our technological times, that the algorithms ⁓ basically engineering out certain things and maxing might kind of be a way that the human layer of our technology overlords has realized like wait, it's obviously a extremely interested in single mindedness and having that aspect of focus and maybe even a little bit of outrage sometimes. And I feel like it kind of puts itself into this moment where is it really us wanting this or is it as response to the way the technology allows us to interact with each other that kind of pushes us towards that. And funnily enough, I'm less inclined to judge the people who are into any maxing trend, but more like, know, what is the underlying Lynette: Yeah. Shann Biglione: thing that's driving that. As a person, ⁓ not, you know, I don't necessarily want to get into it. I just feel like I'm, I ⁓ bored on top of that. So if I was to focus on one thing, it would just drive me crazy. Unless call it couch maxing, then I'm good. ⁓ Do you you'd call for this, Lynette: You know, I bet that's Olympic sport. It's an Olympic sport out there. Shann Biglione: But I do think there is definitely for marketeers something to pay attention to as well. Sadly, we also ⁓ capitalists, ⁓ is definitely things to get into. And I think both in terms of good and bad, as in like the, are for marketeers to capitalize on, if fiber maxing is a thing, then a fiber is going to have something to try to think about probably, I'd imagine in there, or certain parts to be part of that consideration set. Lynette: Yeah. Shann Biglione: I could see a way to fit yourself in, but also probably I would argue, because I'm imagining I'm not the only one with that reaction. There are people into really into the maxing side of things, but there's going to be a mainstream is going to look at this. looks a bit funny, maybe you are a bit weird. And I wonder if there's a role as well from a marketing perspective to also help people on their journey ⁓ this maxing things. And I'll tell you one of the categories that I think has been kind of like struggling with this for long time is the beauty industry. I believe you've worked in beauty. I mean, I've worked quite a few years on beauty brands, luxury and mainstreams. ⁓ know, it's always kind of interesting for me to watch them like talk about, yeah, we're here to empower women. It's like, yeah, sure. you also are here to kind of show, ⁓ you how to ⁓ really do maxing. ⁓ It's part of the ⁓ narrative, you will, or at least the underlying theme. Lynette: Mm. Yeah. Shann Biglione: It's just like, maximize your chances of being seen positively in environment and feeling proud of yourself. And to do that, you have to look your absolute best or as we say now, probably your absolute max. And so industry is kind of an interesting one. And you can see straight away, you know, that industry kind of clustered. have the brands that have fully embraced a hundred percent of the brands have tried to take the counter. The brands have taken the more balanced thing. And I would imagine that there is probably, if not already, but there's going to be a... a sense of how you both acknowledge the trend. And it's true, people are doing it. So clearly there is an audience and there's people who want to do it. It's not about putting a negative spotlight only on those. But what is your role in it? I think it's going to be an interesting question. Lynette: ⁓ you're you can into it, But yes, ⁓ the line is very thin, between helping a coach, right, and supporting people on this journey of maxing, You're providing rituals and frameworks and predictive analysis. And you have ⁓ brands like... Shann Biglione: Mm-hmm. Lynette: notion or AG1 that you know, are trying to lean very much in the wellness space of we're a coach, we're here to, give some guidance, etc. But then you have on the other hand, the possibility of leaning into someone's anxiety, In insecurity, once again, like you said, the beauty industry in the past, May have been selling based on your flaws, Versus how much you gained, They harp on how much more to go, how ⁓ much farther are behind from everyone else, et cetera. And there are ways that then you lean into that comparative, really unhealthy pressure in nature. But if you were a coach, how do you do that in a positive way? How do you do that, a coach brand that isn't just leaning into that infinite optimization that will never be reached? there's also a space for a brand that is all about freedom from maxing. The world always works in abs and flows. And yeah, if a brand goes, you ⁓ Shann Biglione: Hmm. Of course. I think that's the most to get attention at the moment is to get the anti-maxing trend. ⁓ Lynette: Exactly. Like I'm all about meaning, right? It's like remember when FOMO was a thing and then JOMO was a thing, right? Every brief you saw had the inside of JOMO. And I think now the insights everyone's going to have is going to be it's about what's the meaning life, right? And I think brands that have that freedom from the max world, like is that the ultimate luxury? So interesting for brands. ⁓ Shann Biglione: Hmm. Have you seen any brands trying to capitalize on that yet? Lynette: I think a lot of the brands that are trying to go more into the slow life, it goes back that whole significance conversation we were having of, Hey, stop taking yourself so seriously. Right? You know, a lot of brands that do that. Well, you know, all that, Oatley, et cetera. I stopped taking ourselves so seriously. We're just here to live life, you know, ⁓ B versus Max, right? Just B. ⁓ Not everything's a to-do list. You're not an ultimate constant product. And I think it all boils down to how you help people see themselves differently. Do want people to see themselves as a product that you have to optimize every single dimension ⁓ all time? ⁓ And going back to that world of you need be everything all at once. You need to be superwoman, superman, super everything. And that's exhausting. Right? Shann Biglione: How, let's take a specific brand, Nike, who's built itself kind of on a similar culture of, you know, maxing your output, even though it's not labeled directly like that. But how would you approach that as Nike? Because if I'm Nike, I'm like, because they've played in different areas there, but they have been very adamant about, you know, pushing yourself and whatnot. how would you play that trend if you were? Lynette: Hmm? Wow, interesting. let's use the real example everyone was talking about, you know, the Walkus, Walkus tolerated, right? Run is welcome, Walkus tolerated. I think it's about, yeah, yeah, but both sides, right? People can play both sides. And I can see that if you are about achievement, Shann Biglione: Yep. Which got quite a bit of backlash, right? Lynette: Right. And if you, as a runner, you have to know your community, you have to know your audience. If you, as a runner, is going, want to win the marathon, then yes, walking is just tolerated. Right. You know, and so I think then, you know, maxing out your output as you run, maxing out everything, you know, there's so much strategy that goes into every marathon, your water strategy, you know, your stretch, everything. Shann Biglione: Hmm. Lynette: And you want all of those things to be maxed and optimized. so I think, you know, knowing what really matters to your audience and what they would like to get maxed and what they would like to get minned is really important for Nike. And so I think, yes, if your brand is built on achievement, then yes, maxing might be the culture that you're leaning into. ⁓ However, I really liked their old, well, old now, but it was new then, play new, right? Which is just about trying and learning something new, even if you're not great at it, right? Just trying, just starting. And that's an achievement in itself, right? And so that's why we talked about the evolution of maxing, where it's not just so objective of like your jaw maxing, the amount of protein, the grams that you're having, everything trying to be so quantifiable. I like the evolution to qualitative things like China maxing, non-maxing. And that's similar for brands is what's the spirit that you want to max, right? What's the ideology of the lifestyle you want to max versus just what is the, you know, what is the time of your marathon? What is the, et cetera. So I like the evolution. think brands leaning into more of that kind of spirit maxing might be a new evolution versus quantitative. Shann Biglione: So do you think this trend is going to evolve? Like we've talked about the min, which I think is somewhat happening already. There is like the fact that min versus the max I've heard of. Do you see this as a bit of like a, we're going to look back a little bit, like we looked at YOLO for instance, or do you think there is going to be, there's something more substantial going on right now that's going to be here to stay? Lynette: Hmm, interesting question. I think Structurally, right? Earlier you'd be talked about technology as a macro factor. I think structurally with the level of inequality that we're seeing, right? And how wealth amongst the wealthy, right? Which is all, you know, where a lot of consumers are, right? Or all the money is. The biggest flex isn't just money anymore. Cause everyone can have money, right? I've got millions, you've got billions, whatever. The flex now will become, oh, you and I, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Oh my gosh. Well, not us, but you you know. Shann Biglione: Sure. Lynette: so the flex then is like discipline, right? The flex becomes, goes back to like, I have more discipline than you. ⁓ I'm, you know, that's why all the longevity maxing, right? Life maxing and everything is coming in is because I've got more discipline. ⁓ more, you know, you look at all the, you know, Elon and the, you know, Mark Zuckerberg's all training, you know, Jeff Bezos got, got fit, you know? ⁓ ⁓ I think that's where then that status is now. Shann Biglione: Mm-hmm. Lynette: It's no longer wealth, it's a new status level of discipline and rigor analysis and objectivity. And that's what maxing is all about. And so ⁓ I don't see maxing going away because ⁓ Shann Biglione: So those guys, mean Bezos predated, I believe, the maxing trend, at least as a moniker. But I think it's very interesting. I'm not saying as a counter. The ⁓ way described it, there is sense of there needs to be some level of privilege for your life to now be defined by certain things. Because to your point, if you worry about what money you need to make, can guarantee you you're Lynette: Yeah. Shann Biglione: There'll be different questions than your fiber intake. And so that ⁓ of as go higher up into the... income class, let's just call it at the moment and whatnot. if you were selling ⁓ the aspect of and having, being well and you're big CEO, it is more, it is more in line with what you're trying to sell for sure to have that aspect of maxing. I'm really curious to see if the min is going to be more the anti as in we should celebrate not being fit. I hope not, or it will be more of like a question of balance. And it sounds like it's going to be about more of a balance. But those guys that you've given the example of, you take Elon, for instance, I think there's lot of products that go through his body on a single day because the guy is trying to literally max out the current situation he's in, whether it's relaxing or being hyper. And so I just really wonder. Lynette: Hmm. Shann Biglione: how we could find that balance. And to a great extent, if you're not going to go into a culture of maxing, which is right now defined by one variable for the most part, it sounds like two people are to be like maxing into not just one item and going after multiple. Which is interesting because it's contradiction. Maxing kind of came from what I understand, kind of the gaming world where you decide to ignore the other variables, but you're going to go after one you want to re-max out. That's where the term literally comes from. Lynette: Yep. Shann Biglione: but I wonder if there's going to be a trajectory back towards like, cool, how do we refine balance? But with maxing out certain attributes, which is another stage in gaming, it's like once you don't just have your attack, you have some defense and whatnot. So I wonder if there's gonna be that aspect of multiple maxing and having multiple maxing thread as a person and where that's gonna go. Because for me, those guys fall into that bucket. I will not put them into the single bucket, but I'll put them into like, there are variables that need to fit my character, my persona very, very well. Lynette: Totally. Totally. Mm-hmm. Shann Biglione: For Bezos, being fit was one of those. Lynette: Yeah, yeah, Totally, yeah, gaming. It's like, you know, I usually was always an Intel hero. ⁓ But that's also why you need a team. And I think that's also another interesting thing about maxing too. Maybe that's where the trend would go, right? It's like, okay, you've got this max, but you know, who's your team? Who's your crew? And you know, what are their maxes and how you all complement each other. you know, you know, if you want to go far, right, go together. So that could be another Shann Biglione: You were. Hmm. Hmm. Lynette: positive or interesting way this is gonna come about. Yeah. Shann Biglione: Interesting. Does it exist yet? Do you feel? Cause I know there are social interactions. I'm sure there's followers versus and people maybe doing some things together. But do think the community aspect has really come to the fore yet? Cause I think it's a very interesting one. Lynette: Not yet. I think it might. Shann Biglione: Well, that probably would be my parting thought from you there. Like, as in like, I think there's something very interesting because gaming, when you look at the world of role playing games and whatnot, where the maxing of things comes from, of them have moved towards multiplayer games. And there's a real interest and a desire to do those things a bit more together. ⁓ I think if there is ways for... Lynette: Yeah. Shann Biglione: some companies or platforms or whatever to kind of play that role of community that gives health and balance and also benchmarks, which is important, right? Knowing which level you're at and which level you want to be at and what it requires to get to a level. It feels to me that it still has a few things to potentially capitalize on from the gaming originally came from. Lynette: Totally. Yeah, which we should absolutely do a gaming or so. ⁓ Yeah. ⁓ Shann Biglione: Yeah, well, we will do a gaming... no problem. mean, it's video today, you can see there's gaming action going on a lot in the background here. ⁓ Lynette: Oh my God. Yeah, no, we are going through Baldur's Gate again. So now we're playing baddies. So it's going to be interesting. So what's your final take on the question of is maxing a trend or a danger? Shann Biglione: Baldur's Guide, yeah. Very cool. Awesome. I'm going to lean towards danger a little bit, but clearly it's a bit of both. But I don't love the way it's approaching it. I don't like the roots of it. I think they're not necessarily very positive things for brands to go too heavily against, to be completely honest. The maxing most people are aware of is the LUX maxing, which I don't think is going to get great rep, frankly, in the mainstream. And so yeah, I... I would say it's a slightly dangerous place to be in because it is driving towards ⁓ abusive behaviors, in like, yeah, self-abusive, yeah, not to others, but to yourself, ⁓ basically. There's an addictive nature baked that, which is problematic, and I'll careful. at the same it is a sign of the times and something happening on a Lynette: Yeah. Yeah, and self-abusive and yeah. Shann Biglione: technological standpoint, cultural standpoint, mental health standpoint. And I think that ⁓ every time something like this happens, it creates interesting space to play in, ⁓ So ⁓ to try to see how to insert yourself in whilst kind providing the sound approach to And I'm sure there'll be some brands who go 200 % on it. Fine. I mean, Instagram is filled with products and brands that try to do that. So I could see some pushing, but yeah. First and foremost, as a father, I would say a little bit of a danger. Lynette: All right, thank you. Shann Biglione: What's your? Lynette: Okay. ⁓ what's my take? I think, started from maybe ⁓ dangerous place, but what I, you know, I have hope in humanity and in marketers and brands to, as we take, as we said, take maxing as a vibe, right? As a spirit and potentially turn it into something more positive, right? I think as a trend structurally, technologically, it's here to stay, but I think there are ways in which we can try and make things more positive. also think about it, not every product needs to be transformational, ⁓ life I think there's also just a little bit of understanding where your really plays in the space. Cleaning my toilet doesn't mean I'm now, you know, clean maxing, tread maxing. I don't know, who knows, so. Shann Biglione: Well, you say that I have a colonoscopy this week and can tell you there's something possible here. All right, TMI. Thank you. I'll still be laughing about it next week. ⁓ ⁓ well, Inet, thank you so much. It's great to see you again. ⁓ Enjoy the lovely garden. I'm very jealous. All right. Bye bye. Lynette: Exactly, which on that note, good luck for your colonoscopy everybody. Yes, yes, totally. All right. Thank you. Will do. Bye.