Shann: Hi everyone, welcome back to The Overthinkers, I am Shann

Rachel: and I'm Rachel.

Shann: How is it going today, Rachel?

Rachel: It is good. It is a rare Bluebird day that we get to record together, so I'm particularly excited today.

Shann: I know these last few episodes are very exciting both for the chance of having amazing guests but also to get to see each other a little bit again because we've kind of lost track, right?

Rachel: It is very strange to have it go from being such a regular thing to suddenly not at all. But I am always grateful to get to see you. I think, again, life always catches up with us in unexpected ways.

Shann: Hopefully we'll be recording the final episode of this series before our kids go to college. So hopefully we'll be done by then.

Rachel: Shan has always been the driving force behind all of this. I think you are seeing the limits of my organizational capabilities here.

Shann: Well, I actually can't believe I'm the one who went to ask for the guest of today to join us for the podcast this time This is a guest, know, very very well, Rachel. You've worked together And we're both super excited ⁓ very excited ⁓ to joined by ⁓ the Campbell ⁓ a ⁓ in ⁓ Strategy Let's be honest, ⁓ you he's giggling on the phone here. ⁓ He's from Auckland From a pure job title perspective, but he goes through many more ⁓ names and praises than just what he's doing right now. But Rob is CSO at Colenso in Auckland. Very far from us. It's a late ⁓ for us. It's lunchtime for you back there, ⁓ We've had the pleasure to both know you, ⁓ very shortly. I was in Shanghai for a very short stint ⁓ before you left me ⁓ over there. ⁓ went on to continue career. ⁓ Rachel, I think you worked together in a few occasions and especially RG, I believe.

Rachel: Yeah, I mean, it's been something like six years, but we both were at Deutsch at the same time. then we're both at RGA at the same time. Different, different coasts and different offices, of course, but still in the family and of course, commiserating.

Rob: Alright.

Shann: So Rob, welcome to the podcast. It's been a long time that we've wanted to have you, so we're delighted to have you here in our final episodes.

Rob: Thank you for an amazing introduction. ⁓ Thank you for inviting me. Let's hope I'm not a complete disappointment as your final eight.

Shann: So Rob, tell us a little bit about yourself, because I think most of the listeners will know of Rob Campbell. ⁓ But in a few words, how would you describe your trajectory and what you do?

Rob: Honestly, I'm lucky. That's what I am. I've met some amazing people who've believed in me when maybe they shouldn't, including my parents, I should add to that. I work hard. I think I'm pretty good, but I'm lucky. Honestly, that's the, I wish I could say I had some system framework. But yeah, the places generally, not all, but generally the place I've worked with, the clients generally, but not all I've worked with, ⁓ they've all made me better. ⁓ so yeah, I really consider myself like a married to a woman who is very patient and is okay, let's move country again. So yeah, look, and I've been able to be... I've been able to optimize that luck in terms of using it wisely. By luck as well, but yeah, I've benefited a lot. But yeah, I like, I love creativity. ⁓ I find the fact that I'm called a strategist almost embarrassing because I can't even organize, well, I can't organize my life, ⁓ but I'm fucking good at creativity and I really know what's. really good from seeing other people do it and recognizing what could be really great but I really love creativity and I think that's probably lucky and a love of creativity probably sums me up.

Shann: Interestingly, the topic of the day is when do you say enough? In your career, in your podcast, in your job, whatever that is. And I think the way you're starting this already kind of makes me go like, why would you say enough when you're so much in love with creativity?

Rob: You know what? Getting old sucks. It absolutely sucks. And I'm an only child. ⁓ I am selfish. ⁓ selfish as hell in many ways. ⁓ when I find something I'm excited by, I'm all in. I got called by the management of a very famous band, resistant to maturity. ⁓ They meant it as an insult and I took it as a compliment. then as you get older, you realize that as you're doing things, all the things that you find interesting, there's a point where you're not going to be able to do all of them. And that's tough, man. For me, that's tough because I want to go all in. I want to see where it goes. I love that curiosity of, yeah, being fucked up and where's this leading? And so learning to say no, which I suck at, is something I've had to do more than I thought because I'm at a point in my life of huge privilege. Let me be very clear, I'm a white male and that's privilege in itself, but beyond privilege in that. ⁓ I don't want to waste what life I've got with stuff that I don't really want to do. I know there's bits of it, but so being able to say no is the greatest gift. but I suck at it because it also means I have to say no to things I sometimes like simply because I know I won't be able to do it as much as I want to do. ⁓ So it's something I'm trying to learn. ⁓ Sometimes I'm quite good at it. I'm definitely good at it when I'm not interested in something. ⁓ But the things that I love, as my wife would tell you, yeah, I

Rachel: Don't you think it's also like a key ingredient for a strategist? Like isn't a good strategy what you're not doing just as much as what you are?

Rob: When it's strategy, I'm great to tell, like.

Rachel: Somebody else.

Rob: Yeah, well, I mean, people are always quite surprised that I can be really rude in a way that clients really love. And part of it is because it isn't about a desire to be intellectually victorious. It's because I want them to win better. And I love the possibilities. ⁓ So yeah, sacrifice is a key part of strategy. ⁓ But when it's about chasing something that I'm fascinated at. I mean, there was one thing with Nike where I put something to them, the same thing to them almost every meeting for three years. And they up being like, just one last thing. And I'm going, you're not going to do this again are you? I'm going, I am. And then the bastard basically did it when I left. Why didn't it? was like, you sods, I swear to God they did it on purpose. But yeah, so there was. But saying no to something because it's, it's not, it's killing the potential of something is dead easy. I find that dead easy. I have no problems with that. Saying no to something that I really want to do is exciting for me. That's where I have the problem. ⁓ Because I, yeah, as I said, I'm an only child I want to feel it all.

Shann: a little bit of backstory here to kind of get to the point. When I met Rob, which was now a good six, seven years ago, actually maybe even longer than that, maybe more like eight, nine, you're one of the very few people I intently discussed having a child with. And too great if, I think I've told you this last time we spoke, know, ⁓ Beau you a little bit, my son, because I don't think you would be completely here if we didn't have that conversation back then. You were one of the first people to kind of put me on that path ⁓ as why having a child matters. And as I went through my personal ⁓ journey to why I would want to have a child. One of the things that was very clear to me at some point, I struggled with the idea of having a kid because I was worried about the routine, the constraints. And I know that my happiness very often comes from freedom of just changing things and change is positive in my life. You've moved countries. I love moving countries too. There is something, it's like I'm running away from something, but it's always something to get towards, right? And having a child I realized was the ultimate change agent. It was not a pure routine thing and me having to take care of all the time and doing the same thing every day was just every single quarter will be a very vastly different experience because they change so much right ⁓ and desire for change for me was been a big aha moment ⁓ another reason I want to have a child there's other reasons why I want you to have a child but a big big thing ⁓ and That, know, for me, when we talk about saying no to things and having enough, what I realized ⁓ in my own trajectory was that life is too short to be spent doing the same things. I love the idea of change for myself, for the things around me, for the types of projects I work on, and that it's really hard, you ⁓ the hedgehog versus... fox and parrots and foxes that people would like to do many things and hedgehogs that people specialize in one thing. ⁓ archetype of psychology and I realized I was a fox and so that idea of how you say enough ⁓ I find ⁓ driven so much by the thing you say no to but the other things it opens a door towards ⁓ and whether spending more time with your family whether it's a different type of career whether that means ⁓ doing a bit different because you've kind of been around and we joked about when you say enough was an interesting topic because we took the podcast ⁓ I love the I miss speaking to Rachel but at the same time we're like well we've kind of done what we set out to do here. We've kind of said the things, well, not everything we wanted to say, but we've covered, we will have covered 200 questions exactly by the time we'll be wrapping this up and we can go another 200, but there is an incremental value is not there. So that idea of constant change, of constant driving towards something else, this curiosity for me has always been a drive or not to reject the thing I say enough to, but to say, there's something else to figure out out there. Wouldn't be fun to try to figure it out.

Rob: mean, first of when you told me about Bo and whatever level of influence I had in that conversation, I mean, that's an incredibly powerful and generous thing to say, because I would never tell anyone to have a child. if somebody, and I think you did, you asked me about Otis. I was late to becoming a dad. My wife was very patient, mainly because I keep thinking I'm 25. I've absolutely always thought that. And there are elements where I think your definition of freedom evolves rather than changes because like we've been in New Zealand now three years. That's the longest I've been in any country for 20 years, I think is one thing. And we're here. I love Kalenso. I like being here, but we're here because of him. He loves it. It's great for him. That to me is the ultimate demonstration of love for me. because I know that might sound really shallow, but because I'd be ready. That's just who I am. And having a child and both of you had children. Yeah, it just fucks you up in a really amazing way.

Rachel: Well, I love that we're all parents of only children. Yeah, that's true. I think there's like to your point around difference in the day to day, Shan, ⁓ I love about being the parent of an only child is that like ⁓ moment that you have with them is the last and like everyone that's coming forward is going to be like brand new and like nothing you've ever experienced before. And that's just like. Incredible. It's also like such a mindfuck to talk to two gentlemen and hear them frame it as like my freedom, whereas I'm like my contemplation around like, was I going to have a child or not was going to be like like, am I willing to de-center myself and have like them be the center and like would I be able to give them all the things that like I felt like they needed but I was never like I it's interesting to hear you both frame it as like a sacrifice of your personal

Rob: But what's interesting, just this morning I had a coffee. So when I started at Kalenso, four women in my planning team, basically the first day said, we're all going to become moms and you're gonna have to do and all four have and and when they told me that I said, and I'll be so happy for you. And I don't know if they expected that reaction, but I was and I I'm And I was just talking to Tee, the third, who's come back. We've got one more still to come back. And she talked about it. It's like when people talk about a baby and they go, it's so healthy, so beautiful, almost ignoring the fact that the woman, generally, is the person that has put the most physical body into that as well. And yeah, I'm very aware of, yeah, the... the dimension of having a child and freedom and all those aspects. Otis has given me... He's opened up a different way of how I look at what freedom is. My wife has been amazing in enabling me to maintain a lot of that and her own personal sacrifice, which I'm very conscious of. And that's why, ⁓ slightly off topic, can I tell you something that probably has had the biggest impact? And it was a conversation I had with my dad when I was young. ⁓ ⁓ I said to, I've written about this before because when you get older, you realize I had fucking amazing, I knew I had great parents, but fuck me, they were really amazing. And my, my, my mum was very stable. She was a stable person in a job or career. So my father was quite dramatic till he found law, which was where he excelled. And I said to him, why do you keep changing? career, not jobs, career. Like he was a bit, and he said to me, I love you and your mum. And so if I'm going to be away from you for most of the day, I'd better be doing something I enjoy because nothing will be more disrespectful to you than being away for something I That's profound. That's profound as fuck. And

Rachel: I love that.

Rob: I only realized how amazing that was decades later. And, and so if my family are going to enable me to do stuff, move country, do all this stuff, I'd better well fucking do stuff that I enjoy that I so I can bring that energy and positivity back. Am I gonna have bad days? God, I brought Gillian, she go, yeah, he has bad days. But fundamentally, and this is this thing about when you give up stuff, like, I need to chase the stuff that I have a position of privilege where I can say no to a bunch of stuff that I don't want to do. And accept there's consequences to that, and I'm okay with it. But it's in the quest of doing the things that ⁓ make that I can be the best person with my family as well. which is a new definition of luxury for me. And that's why, when do you say enough? I'm not going to say enough to my family, of course, in that respect. But it is a bit of, I heard this, ⁓ hate Tom Hanks. I know that's an American sacrilege for me to say that, but I hate him. ⁓ Really? Yeah. Hate him. But there was one thing he said that I really liked and it really annoyed me that I liked it. Somebody asked him about the creative process. And he said, I'm cool with working with people that I don't like. They've got their ways, that's cool. But the moment their ways impact on my ability to be the best version of me, then we're going to have a slugfest in the car park. And I've been searching for a way of working out when, when can I say no and not feel bad about it? Because I'm half Italian, it's like, I'm not religious, but I should be Catholic because I've got massive guilt issues. but that really helped me. And that's been when someone's, impinging on my ability to be the best version of me with the people I value the most. then that's how I've learned to say no. For you guys saying no to a podcast that you love and the way you described why, you're better people than me because I don't know if I could say no to that yet.

Rachel: To Shansway, I also miss talking to Shan and talking to Shan about very interesting problem sets. We could have that conversation every day going on. But the reason why we made the podcast was we were like, there's a lot of folks who are freelancer adjacent in the industry talking about doing strategy, but not from the front line. We wanted to be talking about front lines, real lines problems. now both of us are not in the industry. And like, like, yes, we are still confronting problems. But like, then we're running into becoming what we were pushing up against, which is the armchair. And so like, I, there's a woman who I highly respect, Diana Berlin, she's now a, like, VC partner, but she originally had her own podcast. And one of her notions was, there are no permanent side projects, like there has to be a definition of done. And I do think that, like, Shannon, I acknowledged at the right. moment that like, there was a reason or like a season for us to stop now Shan is very fixated on 200 episodes, which I will concede to he's winking at me, but like

Shann: I also don't want it to finish too soon, you know, it's just like.

Rob: just do 203 just to annoy everybody.

Rachel: Yeah, let's yeah 202 why not

Shann: 201 is at Rachel LDC. There you go.

Rachel: Yeah, there we go.

Rob: Can I just say one thing, Rach, that you've said about why you started the podcast today? Right. About the front line and stuff. There was a lot of people who are the spokespeople for strategy who aren't on the front line. Yeah. This is what's really fucking me off. They've never made any work. They're mistaking popularity for authority. And it literally drives me fucking bonkers. And there's a young generation who are, I remember what it was like seeking validation, like desperate for it. And they're following the wrong people. it's, and that, ⁓ yeah, sorry, that's just a side thing, but that bothers the crap out of me. Like people who sell a system to validate their own intellectual ego versus what's great. Like, I'm lucky that I'm working with some people at the moment. My career, I've been very fortunate, but real artists.

Rachel: I'm not here to like disparage anyone around like or their motivations for doing it. I think it's just a it's a different set of success metrics, right? And we talked to our client, we talked to our clients, haven't talked to clients in a couple of years, but like about what wrong success metrics are all of the time. And so like some folks are like visibility and validation are my success metrics and other people are are setting their success metrics around the work that they've put out or the impact that they've had on themes or their billings or like any other number of things. But like, yeah, I mean, that was the white space that we were originally. I mean, I'm surprised you haven't said fuck yet on the podcast, but you know, there's still time.

Rob: I just need to be polite. I'm sure I have. You're probably immune from me from hearing it. It's just that he always says it.

Shann: I think your take on the industry, what is great about it, Rob, is you've, in my opinion, or from my vantage point, always been very unapologetic about what you liked and what you didn't like. You've always been very clear, like, know, and not in an arrogant way, ever. I've never seen you being arrogant about it, but just like, look, this is not what I'm interested in. This is not what I want to be doing. And I think that clarity of intent is... Rare, partly because the work we evolved within for the great part, mean, I know for me it's been mostly in China and the US where they big ⁓ and you've experienced both of them. But most things are decided in ways that are not very fertile for this kind of mindset in my experience. And I know that personally, I don't think I've ended my marketing journey just yet. I love marketing ever since I was a child. My absentee father still was somebody I would just be following him at the weekends when he goes buying stuff that I couldn't care less about. But we'd be on the car ride and we'd be talking about ideas for advertising. That's what I did when I was eight years old with my dad, which was like, hey, it wouldn't be great if the ad was XYZ. And it was kind of a thing for me when the chance to work in advertising just felt like a magical thing. I always loved this idea of doing work that is seen by millions of people that is, you Yes, setting products, which I do value and agree is the purpose of it, but I just think it's amazing to deserve people's attention and not getting into the mindset that you own the attention, but you really have to deserve it. And I actually even think there's genuine brilliance. know it's easy to think making a movie is a much bigger deal than doing a TV commercial. And to many standards, I don't disagree with that. But I think it's really fucking hard to come up with a compelling, impactful thing that is said in 30 seconds. I really think it's very, very hard.

Rob: And yeah, the thing I think, sorry, but the thing like I talk about the wire, the TV show, the wire a lot. And it demanded you pay attention. Like it demanded you to pay attention. If you didn't pay attention, you'd miss a lot. would. And that attitude now in marketing is seen as no, no, no, Everything is basically Mr. Bean. Mr. Bean is the creative director for most. communication. ⁓ ⁓ I have a long ⁓ with Nike and they're going through a terrible time of that, of certain people's own making, you know, that's been well documented. And I've felt that way for a long time. But there are people there ⁓ were there who were epic and they were like, you have to earn the right to wear this brand. ⁓ ⁓ a sense of just like integrity about going on. And I think the ⁓ your point about whether it's a film or advertising. Like, you've got to love it. And I've always loved creative. My background's probably been much more from a creative thing. And I don't say that to disparage advertising. But for me, advertising is born from the potential and power of creativity that can go anywhere. But what I found really scary is the convenience of marketing there. I do believe in brands, I believe in subcultures, I believe in building something rather than just saying something. ⁓ And the thing I find really interesting with the film industry, and again, always go, if I was, imagine, I love film, like, I gotta love film. And the idea of spending a year working in a film that you know is bad would destroy me. The good news about my industry is I love working with really talented, creative people. But we can talk things out in a much quicker rate. But I worked with a guy called Richard at Wyden. He used to do all the Business Week Bloomberg covers. And he said something, goes, hey, if I have a bad week, I get to redo a complete start all over again next week. It'll be good. ⁓ ⁓ really admired that because I find it quite hard to let go because ⁓ back to Otis, there's a sense of I want him to feel like I'm always doing pride. But I don't know where this is going. But yeah, I just find it. I want people to care, not just do. And I appreciate that's not everyone's remit, but that's maybe why I'm not backward at speaking up. It's not because I want to criticize it, it's because I want us to go, are we winning as best as we can?

Shann: And I think ultimately brings you an audience. As in you personally, mean, not just as a brand, but I think there is this idea that not having sharp elbows is better for our industry or not having strong opinions of what we think matters or doesn't matter is better. I really feel like having voices like yours in the industry just makes the industry better because it's a question of self-respect as much as question of fun. I know that for me, I always looked at the concept of marketing as the funnest part of doing business. I just always was attracted to that aspect of there is something genuinely amazing to be able to bridge the concept of business and creativity in one area. And that for me is extremely appealing. And that was hard to say enough to it for me when I decided to make a bit of a pivot. I think some of it was on the back of I was not maybe strong enough to be able to drive that agenda the way, for instance, you have, or maybe not lucky in some areas and whatnot, but there is definitely like the saying enough for me in the world of marketing has been like, I've kind of had enough of the things I really didn't care about. And I realized that I need to rebuild myself a little bit differently to be able to kind of move forward. And that's been part of my personal journey on this, not as someone who was rejecting marketing and the wider remit of what we're doing or the type of job I was doing. liked it. I enjoyed it. I was proud of it. I'm proud of what I've achieved in it, but the pleasure had been sucked dry. the fun of it was missing in it. And I just wanted to go and explore other things that would titillate my brain a little bit differently, at least for a little while, to take a break from it. So I'm taking a sabbatical from it to an extent, if you think about it in this way. And that's one of the drives for me to, at some point, say enough. And I think to your point, you said you were in an extremely privileged position, but I don't take it as a... I don't think there were privileges there to describe exactly what happened. I think you just created the circumstances so that you can gravitate around the work that you care about and you found your people, you found your tribe, you found people who will resonate with it.

Rob: It's don't let me off. It's definitely privilege. Like it's the I mean, a while back, I wrote about something I had not told. I had to tell my wife before I posted it because it was about a mental health situation I had when I was very young. I talked about the only time in my life I'd considered suicide. Privilege let me do that and know nothing is going to happen to me. Nothing. But the one thing, because like, I met Rach, Rach and I, thankfully for Rach, are as different as can be, but I absolutely, I respect and adore Rach. And while we have very different ways of doing things, I think it's to say. Rach, when she, she's always been super smart, but young. I always respected that she cared. And even if we disagreed, was an way we could talk to each other. Even though we came from completely different sides, because there was a sense of like... You know your stuff and you're not saying your stuff is the only way. You're just saying, this is my way. I respect you might have a, there was a respect when I hear from, I'm going to say someone like Mark Ritzen at the moment, who's got this attitude of everyone's wrong other than me. I find that offensive, especially when some of the most successful brands don't follow his thing. And I appreciate he's very good. I'm not saying he's not good. Of course he is, but he's a mass market expert rather than a brand leading expert. But what I loved about with Rach, and maybe Rach feels different, was the fact that I will express my point of view, but that doesn't mean that I think it's the only point of view. I'm trying to do it so we can open a conversation about it versus just blindly follow a process that's dictating. Rach, you work, we work together, and we look like, am I talking shit?

Rachel: No, I mean, I felt like we, definitely approach from opposite ends of the spectrum, but I do think that we see the mutual care in each other. Like, I mean, it's easy to forget, but like I was raised in Crispin, right? We were given shirts that said good enough socks. Like, and I believe that, but like where I get motivation is taking like the worst thing and trying to make it a little bit better. Like it took our GA a year and a half to hire someone on Verizon. I got the job because I was like, yeah, I want to try and figure out how to make like 140 million Americans lives like a little bit better when like interacting with their phone company. It's terrible. I've never aspired to work on Nike because I'm like a little too intimidated. I'm like, if you're at the top, like where else can you go? But I do feel like there's no, I used to joke about, had my college boyfriend went to Harvard and I'd be like, you only have down to go. And I have like my college. degree is only going to go up from here. So like, that's how I would fuck with him. like, I think we approach things from the opposite sides in that way. But I think what we always respected in one another was how deeply we still cared about the work, even if we were ⁓ about the problem differently.

Rob: I still remember when we talked about Verizon and I remember, I can't remember the question, but I can remember I said to you, because you'd talked about how much money they had or something, had something. And I remember saying something like, you've got the power that's bigger than the US government then to make some thing change. And we just started this conversation. And what I loved was I love the way you think because it's not the way I would think. And but there was a sense of, the goal is to do something. Great, not easy to buy, convenient. And I appreciate that that might be rare. appreciate there's some covers that don't value. I understand that. And that's why I totally appreciate it. My written is an incredible. smart human. I'm not knocking that. It's just that some people just go, that's the only way that matters my way. And I find that really offensive. the people, that's why I find it really interesting when people try something different. But for the reasons, well, some because they just want to see what will happen. And some because they've got a different vision. And that's why, yeah, I loved all of our conversations. Even the one that at Deutsch where part of it was like, ⁓ we want to keep Rage. And I'm going, I've just fucking started. What do think I'm going to do? And then we met in New York. I've just found people who are really interesting, interesting. that's that going back to that point of when is enough enough. That's the hard part. Because if you open stuff, anything's possible. And then you get to 54 in New Zealand and you go, well, I keep meeting people that I find really interesting. But I'm not going to be able to follow the path to its natural conclusion all the time. So I'm going to have to start saying no to some things. And that's a really, for me, challenging time because in many respects, the last few years, I've entered a new chapter of my career, arguably the most creative part of my career because of the people I'm working with. Fuck, it's intoxicating. And they keep inviting me in to go to more things. And yeah, and so when you said to me you were ending the podcast and I've listened to various episodes and I've loved it because it's been disorganized planning in many ways. Knowing both of you a bit. ⁓ I can imagine that that feeds you. And I just found it really interesting that you were like going, well, it's reached a point for us to try something. I'm not judging that. It's just I find that really fascinating because that's my addicted. don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't drink drugs. Not because I'm a Puritan, but because I have an addicted personality. and I know I'd be all in. So that's why I find it really fascinating that you've got the strength of character to go, no, there'll be another thing, a bit like a kid. You always don't want them to grow up because you love this moment. Then they do a bit and you go, love that moment. ⁓ But I like to, yeah, I find it hard to let go, stuff like that.

Rachel: Well, I think it's also interesting too. Again, it feels like a contrast to both you, Rob and you Shan around like drivers and like definitions of enough because you are so intrinsically motivated around what interests you. And like for me, enough had like a really hard slam down with physical constraints in my body. Like I was extremely ill in COVID. I got diagnosed with an autoimmune disease and now there's like very serious and like physical ramifications for like if I do overwork or overextend or don't sleep or like any of those types of things. Like I used a like again my very first review to like my 10th review every single annual review I had was like Rachel needs to learn how to say no like because I was just like I want to be in everything I want to solve every problem I want to like the more that I can fix the more that I could do but I just ran like 10,000 miles an hour. into the wall and then like had to confront where I just didn't have the capacity anymore and I still think I have to navigate self-regulating or understanding like what I have time and energy to do because even if this is an energizing activity for me I also have to ⁓ that with ⁓ does this take away from for like my ability to rest or recuperate or like ⁓ have I given brain enough of break today. Like those are all like silly things that I think in my 20s I never would have thought I had to worry about.

Rob: Could I ask you two questions to that? The first one is, was your desire to say yes to everything or get involved in everything because of a insecurity or a desire to learn? And the second question is, all those people who said you've got to say no, did they enable that or did they say that but they still ask you to be an everymate?

Rachel: would say at first it was a desire to learn. Like, I came in with a chip on my shoulder into the business, right? Like I... I think I've said this before, but I don't say it often publicly, but I... came out of undergrad with a design degree, interviewed at a bunch of shops with a design degree, and I was basically told you have like zero qualifications, zero capability, like we will maybe bring you into our print production studio and you can work in our print production studio for like two years and then maybe you can get into like an art director track or like those types of things. And then I went to Brandcenter to take a different track. Because I was like, I know that I have something that I could bring. And I just didn't have the experience or exposure. Like I went to Crispin and I like brown nose my way around. Like I just went to every creative director's office. I literally brought them beers. was like, just turned 21. And I was just like, here's a beer. My name's Rachel. Call me if you need comps. Like I like literally went to each creative director. to do that. And so like I brought it on myself. Like that was how like the Deutsch diaspora happened because there was a Crispin exodus and like I got known for doing that work and I would just sign on for anything. You need wireframes, you need a digital strategy, you need a whatever. Like and that was because I wanted to get exposure to different problems or different things. Now ⁓ rightly wrongly my narrative was like because I worked 80 hours a week I worked ⁓ on as many projects and so I was able to move through things quickly early on in my career. ⁓ then later on ⁓ Definitely became more of a fear of like if I'm not involved I would have to like let somebody fail and I felt a very like strong accountability gene for my like teams which I think is a really hard thing to do like learning to delegate and learning how to Set up your team for success is really hard to a really hard transition if you're going from like an individual contributor to Like a manager role and I did not that was not an easy transition.

Rob: Yeah, that's, yeah. Because that's the bit that, I mean, there's an experience which you won't get, but there was, say one thing, but then they do the other. And you go, well, what about this? And you go, ⁓ that doesn't count. it's even hard, I mean, if you're female, a person of color, I mean, Jesus Christ, it's like the, I mean, Chelsea Curry. Her loss is very... The loss is still raw for me. I fucking love that bag of trouble. I loved her because she... I just loved her conviction. And she would call you out and people didn't like it. And she wasn't always right. None of us are, but... Yeah, but I see a lot of people who are... ⁓ saw it in you as well. ⁓ ⁓ wants to let anyone down. ⁓ but then you're helping everyone except yourself. it takes a lot. It needs people who are really honest because they care for you for you to sometimes to listen to that. I've had a few, took some time. And that's maybe why, what with the thing my dad had said about his life and career. I want to enjoy myself and I want to help people find a way to enjoy. think I sounds really, I think I'm a good boss. I think I am. I love, I love building teams. I absolutely adore it. they might think very differently, but I think a lot of it is they can make as many mistakes as they like. They just can't be lazy. And by lazy, I don't mean work 80 hours less than 80 hours away. I mean, just, you just got to. Like we were talking about the wire, you've got to do something that makes people feel that you cared about it. But yeah, there's like, and that's why I have a real thing with the dip. There's a major difference between graft and hustle. I like people who graft. I think people who hustle, it's all shortcuts and quick wins. But I also get there is a generation where like they've been shat on. Hustle is the only way to move.

Rachel: Try, like put in the effort.

Rob: move around, I understand that. But as I say to everyone, there was a young guy, Leon, who worked with me at Wine and Candy, he finally got promoted. He tried really hard, and he'd really, I said, Leon, this is the worst thing that's gonna happen to you. He goes, why? Because everything he's taken for you to get here is now the minimum standard I expect. And I said, we're gonna help you do that. But it was like, he earned it. He knows he earned it. ⁓ And I still value that. I still think that's, and that might not be the popular choice, but as long as people are learning, being challenged and supported, that's great. ⁓ But yeah, that whole Rachel's got to learn how to say no, lots of people. I literally said that to Meg in her review. Meg is a dynamite. She's absolute dynamite, but it's also, And if she was here, she'd tell me if I should not. that's her saying no is as much my responsibility as hers. people like you and what you went through in the conversations we've had in the past, kind of are there. were the torch on that. Because it's dead easy to say that in a review. It's like, stop fucking giving me more work. I'm glad that you, I don't like how you had to learn that, but I'm glad that you're strict on that.

Rachel: ⁓ yeah, so much easier now in a place that doesn't send emails after 5 p.m. It helps when the organization has the rules.

Rob: Yeah.

Shann: I know we're about out time, Rob, and I did have one final question for you. What, other than the things you want to say no to, what things would you like say yes to as you look at the next five years in your career slash life? Is there anything on the horizon that you would love to be able to say yes to?

Rob: I say yes to the things that I love. mean, the things that, what I say yes to is when I meet people who want to do something, either because they want to explore it, express it, or it's deeply true to who they are. I work with this Chinese billionaire privately. When I first met him, he said to me, I need people to get used to living on another planet because one day we're going to have to. As only a billionaire could have possibly say. And I loved it. Because he wasn't saying it to be like, Elon. It wasn't that. It was like it was a deep humanity thing for him. And I was like, who the fuck wouldn't want to work with that guy? ⁓ it's bonkers. ⁓ yet it said with real sincerity. I want to say yes to that. I don't want to say yes to someone who wants to optimize what they've done by four percentage points to do the same thing that they've always done and feel better. I don't want to say yes to someone who wants to just talk a lot and do little. I want to say yes to people who just want to try stuff because they're really into it. ⁓ And there's a sense of... ⁓ I hate the word purpose because it's been hijacked and it's a get out of jail stuff. But there's a real compulsion, maybe a compulsion of belief. So when you say, what do I want to say? Yes, I want to do that. And that means, as I have in my heart, I've never planned my career. I go where I find the excitement. And Paula Bloodworth, my dear Paula, my dear Martin Weigel, we got invited to speak at Cannes. last year or whenever, 23. And we talked about strategy is constipated and imagination is the laxative. And the fundamental aspect was what's the most exciting thing and work backwards from that. And for me, I mean, that's really what strategy should be. But the way we're doing strategy at the moment is where's the logic and where could we go? We have visions. We have visions, which is like, We never actually have to work towards it. We just hope we'll get there. I want to go with the excitement and work backwards and make it happen. That's what I can't say no to. And I'm very fortunate at Kalenso, but also in my private stuff. I'm working with some beautiful lunatics who... who enable me to explore that. And that's the bit, the subject of this post, where one day I'm not gonna be able to do it. One day I'm not gonna be able to travel like a fool. And that's the bit that I struggle with saying no, because I never want to say no, but I never want to let anyone down, including myself. And that's the struggle an only child has.

Shann: You

Rachel: Our poor children.

Shann: Rob, was beautiful. Thank you so much for joining us. ⁓ Where can people find you, follow you? Where do you like to say things?

Rob: I am an abso- I would turn up at the opening of a pair of like, it's easier how to avoid me. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna, yeah, I'm, I talk a lot, so it's fine. Nobody needs more of that, but I'm very appreciative that you've stupidly given me a megaphone today. Thank you.

Shann: Thank you for joining us Rob. Thank you Rachel. So nice to see you again after those many weeks.

Rachel: No, nice to see you too, Shannon. Thank you again, Rob. It's always good to see you. It's good to see you.

Rob: Ciao.