Lynette: Welcome to the Overthinkers. I'm Lynette. How are you doing?

Shann: And I'm Shen. I'm great. I am just back from a week in the south of France in the sun and the heat wave. It was glorious.

Lynette: All right. Well that he wave is continuing then on the east coast, ⁓ because it is finally hot in Vermont. It's insane. ⁓ we thought that June twenty ninth kind of felt like May twenty ninth. ⁓ but today it is hot. My peppers are loving it. They're finally growing. We've got squash, like garden's happening. Yeah.

Shann: Yeah, we're getting it now. Yeah, I mean my ⁓ watering plants in New York City is ⁓ not super fun. ⁓ my rooftop is drying up within a day. So it's a regular occurrence at the moment. It's gonna go for two thirty eight degrees Celsius on Friday. so that's proper heat wave we're getting similar to what Europe was getting when we were there. ⁓ but no, it was great.

Lynette: Sure. I love yeah, I love that you're ⁓ still degrees Celsiusing.

Shann: Yeah, I cannot do Fahrenheit. I'm sorry. I just I've tried. It just my brain. It's one of few things. Meters and Fahrenheit is like nope. I I can do cups when I cook. I I got the concept of cups. but anything else? No.

Lynette: Totally. I'm I know. Degree Celsius is hard for me too. ⁓ I'm gonna admit something to all our listeners that is so embarrassing. ⁓ just two weeks ago I learned that a foot has twelve inches and not ten because my husband and I were trying to measure something and I was like, no, no, it's the half. So and he was at the six inch mark. And I was like, No, no, no, the ⁓ you know, you know. and he was like, No, no, no. I was like, go to the five inch. He was like, No, no, half a foot is six inches, and I was like,

Shann: Mm-hmm. What were you measuring with your husband?

Lynette: mind blowing he was like we learned that in school and I was like you learned wrong no I'm kidding but exactly so you know here I am admitting to everybody that ⁓ you never stop learning.

Shann: Size matters. Well, you know, I didn't even know it was either ten or twelve. I didn't care. But I should. I mean I was like I'm I I really should learn those things 'cause it is useful. ⁓ but no.

Lynette: Yeah, well here we go. Here we go. Totally. Yeah, and you know, talking about learning things, ⁓ I have ⁓ you know, also recently well also recently read a book, but I read it again, ⁓ by David Epstein. ⁓ not that Epstein, but a different Epstein. Yes, David Epstein, who wrote ⁓ this book called Range, which is why generalists will triumph in a specialized world.

Shann: No. Yeah, you know I get it. It's David, David, David, David. Mm-hmm.

Lynette: ⁓ and yes, I just, you know, was thinking about that deeper and how it applies to strategy and marketing and wanted to get your thoughts, Shin, on strategists, marketing. Should we be specialists or generalists? What do you think?

Shann: Yeah, well he's been a big pet peeve of mine for a while. So I'm gonna have a pretty clear perspective on this. I do not think strategists should ever be specialized.

Lynette: Ooh. All right, let's talk about let's talk about that and and hear your take on, you know, channeled strategists, right? You got social strategists, you got media strategists, you all you know, et cetera. And yeah, is that the level of specialization you're talking about or?

Shann: Yeah. Yeah, I mean I j I don't like having a social strategist. I don't like a it's the second strategy becomes complete compartment compartmentalized to a single tool in the toolbox, it stops being for me proper strategic planning. Because strategic planning needs to be able to understand the wider thing. It needs to be able to understand what not to use and and a strategist cannot be a hammer looking for nails. It's just that is the the the the foundation. Now. I want to be clear that I understand why and when those types of swim lanes happen. That is not to say you could not operate a task that is focused on one channel or one specific nail. I'm fine with that. But as a strategist, for me, true strategists are people able to operate because strategy is a is a practice, it's a general practice. It is something that is meant to understand and kind of weave itself in and out. So if you're a creative strategist that does not understand media, there's a problem. If you're a media strategist that does not have some understanding of how creative works, that's a problem. And we're talking of the broad terms here, by the way. Like then after he gets like, you know, you have you can have a TikTok strategist like, get out. Like, no. ⁓ you're basically at this stage, just a glorified tactical planner just puts a bit of a wrapper around it. For me, when you get to that level. Now it's not to say I look down on it. I want to be clear. I always I value tactical planning potentially more than I value strategic planning. ⁓ like I really think like the whole like strategic means smart and tactical means dumb. It's kind of the way it's sometimes when they ⁓ this person, they're too tactical, they're not strategic. I'm like, yeah, but like you're saying one is smarter than the other, that's not the point. And I think having tactical expertise is really fucking hard. So for me to be like a TikTok expert, big value, and I will not discourage anyone to do that. But if we are talking as we are right now in this concept of being a strategic planner or a strategist, and you have to really understand that this strategy is a skill across. And you might apply those skills to specific channels at some point because of the requirement of a campaign or a job you have in the moment. But I think it's it's it's it's a it's a self defeating proposition to have that level of specialism.

Lynette: Interesting. Yeah, no. ⁓ I completely agree about the multidisciplinary nature of being a great strategist, right? You are the person who has to do all the collisions to identify the so what, right? And I think, you know, specialists are very good at finding the what, right? So what does this what does this number mean? Like how do we perform? You know, what what is this? But I think what a strategy.

Shann: Mm-hmm.

Lynette: Editist needs to do is then go bringing things from geopolitics to culture to business operations to you know everything from organizational design ⁓ to how an executive likes to hear the recommendation and bring all of these things together to then develop the so what and the now what, right? And it's almost like yes, that job is the spider web.

Shann: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Lynette: your job is pulling all of the different specialisms together to go, okay, so what? Now what do we do with that as well? So I think definitely I'm also in the a little bit of a generalist camp. I will say I w it wasn't always, right? When I first started my career, I thought, well, you know, I thought a lot of stupid things 'cause you know, we're all young, ⁓ still young. But I remember coming in and thinking

Shann: Mm. Okay.

Lynette: Within two years, I have to choose a specialism. And I need to get so good at it. And that's my specialism. That's my rare skill. I know, right? And I go, you know, etc. And then I came into the industry and I went, ⁓ man, no, actually, and I you know, and I was part of the ⁓ graduate master's training program. So I was in PR, I was in

Shann: Mm. How very Asian of you.

Lynette: Geometry shopper activation, I was in digital, I was in, you know, a whole bunch of different things. And then realizing within all those specialisms that actually the biggest power that we have ⁓ is to be a generalist, to know enough about each discipline to be dangerous, ⁓ but to know that those things will change, you know, and I think, you know, in the book, David Epstein talks about A wicked world versus a kind world, right? And in a kind world where ⁓ the rules are fixed, right? The patterns are clear. ⁓ if you do this, then that, right? There are certain sports like golf, there are certain things where that, you know, it follows a kind world. Versus we are in a wicked world where it's full of uncertainty, there's imperfect knowledge, we need to make decisions and trade-offs and priorities ⁓ in that wicked environment, right? And that is the majority of our environment today.

Shann: Yeah. Mm.

Lynette: ⁓ and strategists need to be need to be at the forefront of navigating wicked environments. And that's where being a generalist and training yourself to ⁓ be able to go deep in it's it's hard. It's kind of it's a weird oxymoron, right? To be a deep generalist. But maybe let's talk about that a little bit. What do you feel are some of the most powerful important things to get good at?

Shann: It is.

Lynette: As a generalist, right? 'Cause you don't want to be a the whole, you Jack of all traits, master of none. How do we jack be Jack of all traits, master of all?

Shann: I Well, ⁓ first of all, I think ⁓ master of strategy is a first start. Like as in generally speaking, understand reading things about strategy with a capital S and not just pure, you know, channel planning, if you will. There you will see immediately that there are very common patterns across every specialty. ⁓ the differences are tactical. They're not like the act of doing strategic planning is going to be a shared skill. Across. And so honing that in the first place, looking into it, like looking at corporate strategy as well, looking at all those things, understanding the patterns of analysis, and you know, like it is just that is a first thing. The second thing is that the for me, when you get to specific channels or subsets, the tactical part is what makes a difference. Like I think what gives a lot of strategists ⁓ advantages. Is the ability to understand how the dominoes are going to fall when the tactical piece comes in. and I know for me, you know, there are areas, I mean, I worked in different fields in advertising. So I'm right now I'm a quote unquote advertising strategist who's been able to do strategy on other things. I was a corporate strategist recently. Like I've done different types, right? But yeah, so I've I've kind of played along, but like the thing is like I know I was a

Lynette: Hm. And a product strategist, yeah.

Shann: Better advertising strategist because tactically speaking, I knew exactly how the dominoes were, or I could somewhat evaluate how the dominoes were gonna fall. I'd spent so much time on it, I understand it. I'd worked on many campaigns, I worked with tactical people who were able to implement it, I've seen reports and results. But it is so important for me to get that because that is for me what makes strategists shine in many instances, is to know what is going to be genuinely useful for the tactical plan. I never really see the strategy as an outcome. It is it's a mere relay relay in the system. You know, you pass the bat on to somebody else, but it is never, never the end game. I as a matter of fact, I'm actually very comfortable with the strategy slides to not be in a presentation. Like for me, a strong idea does not need setup. A strong application does not need setup. It might need justifications at some point, but I always prefer to kind of lead straight to it. And so That aspect of really embracing the tactical nature, rolling up your sleeves, working with tactical teams, understanding it, like that is what over time, I believe, makes you able to get to that and gives you that sense of depth. Because otherwise it's theoretical. It's just hypothetical. But really understanding, you know, what does that mean to put this these few words? You've selected those words very carefully for a reason. And this should not be to stroke your ego or your copywriting skills. But how do they help? The person on the end of the other end of the line is gonna take it up, take that baton and make it a tactical plan. How is it going to be used? Why is it useful to say those words? These are essential skills for to be make it be with struggles.

Lynette: Yeah, completely. Yeah. I think ⁓ I agree. It's like the art of finding the real problem to solve. The art of framing a problem, framing an opportunity, synthesizing, you know, all of those things that you're right, with that general view, you're able to then apply it to a whole bunch of different things. Which if you think about in a career, is really important. You know, because like you said, if you go into a specialism, that's great, but you

Shann: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lynette: Go so deep, and I think one thing that I've always advised strategists, you know, junior strategists is don't get pigeonholed too young. Like you said, don't get pigeonholed into being the TikTok strategist too young, because you know, you could definitely ⁓ have that as one of your, you know, we talk about T shapes or ⁓ shapes, etc. You can definitely have that as one of your T's.

Shann: No.

Lynette: you know, like social media strategy and execution, but also how do you make sure that, you know, you've got that broad stroke of being a phenomenal thinker, finder, framer, etc. yeah.

Shann: I think it's it's a super good advice for juniors. I also it's you have the issue, like you're you're horse betting when you're taking a specialism. Like you yeah, you think the odds of that horse make it far are high, but channels can change pretty quickly. and so you're taking the risk of being pigeonholed in something that might not be as hot in the future. For sure, that can happen. So being very clear about what is it you want to put your eyes on. I mean, a lot of people in the thought leadership stuff, you see them, they jump, you know, like ⁓ a few hours ago they were talking about crypto and blockchain. And it's like, oop, that's going away. Now I'm gonna talk about AI and I'm gonna talk about things. And like they switch horses pretty quickly. And that's important, right? And those people are usually very competent and they can do it pretty quickly because there are strategic thinkers who understand how to apply the craft to any channel. And I think that that aspect of specialization when you're young It is natural, as in like, you know, people will most likely expect you to have and bring that level of specialism. It's being a journalist in year one is tough in your career, right? There's just the reality like people are gonna give you a chew a bone to chew. And that will be something you may be a bit focused, but always look for ways to expand that. I will give you the counter to that though. That's been my experience. To the point of, you know, jack of all trade. ⁓ I know that for me it has cost me to be journalist. You know, it's it's professionally speaking, people like to put you in a box. And the truth of the matter though is that I refuse to be like it I was not excited about being put in a box. Like I I think we've talked about this the hedgehogs versus ⁓ foxes in life, the hedgehogs are people who specialize heavily in the foxes of people who jump and do lots of things. And these are really two archetypes in society where you typically are more one versus the other. And I am a hundred percent fox, right? I like to change things. all the time. I get bored quickly. And and so for me, it was a question of motivation and to an extent corporate survival to be able to shift gears. But it is hard. People don't let you do that. They like to put you in that little tiny little box. All the way to by the way, I have been told sometimes there are roles that was passed on because like, well, you're kind of a strategist, right? You're like the PowerPoint Ivory Tower guy. And you know, it's just like people label you and as you get older, by the way, it gets harder and harder. And people are very generalist. I mean, for me now I look weird. If I send a resume to say like I cannot get a job anymore. This is a I'm old. But the the riti is like applying for a job with my CV looks weird. But like, well, I mean, we're trying to fill this position for someone who's been doing this for 15 straight years and you've done this for the first five years and this for the other five years, and this for the other five years. And it's complicated. But I I will tell you what, I am so glad I made that choice. Like, as much as it's costing me not being in something, maybe that's on paper sounds like aspirational. I love being a journalist. I love being able to switch gears. I love being able to kind of move to different things. It is part of who I am as a person. And so it felt natural, but also intellectually, I found it so much more stimulating, so much more interesting. Like the old things we learned, like I mean product is one of them. Like product design and product management. In it's a lot of it is taken from basically strategic planning and the way the ⁓ the advertising industry used to do it. Like they literally took the blueprint at some point to kind of take some of that. They've applied it a bit differently. But again, you know, those blueprints they're kind of trying to work. And I think, you know, it's it's it's important. Now, if TikTok really rocks your boat and that's what you want to think about all day and all night, be my guest. I just would say You'll be a better TikTok strategist if you are honing your craft thinking beyond it. I think that's important.

Lynette: Yeah, no, I I appreciate the awareness of the bias, right? Like we're biased because that the personal bias of who we are, what we like, you know, and our personalities. ⁓ but if you use some analogies in the world, there you definitely need both, right? Like ⁓ Roger Federer was a generalist in a way that he I think played baseball, basketball, soccer, a whole bunch of different things before he was like, Okay, now I'm gonna apply this to tennis and you know exactly, exactly.

Shann: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Same with center. You need center.

Lynette: And in many ways that makes them better at some of the basic things we're talking about, like recovery, no w know body knowledge, you know, but then you also have people who specialize like Tiger Woods from the age of two, right? Golf is his thing. ⁓ or if you think about I like what you said about

Shann: Yeah. Yeah.

Lynette: Strategy is like a general practice. You know, you're the trauma surgeon, you know, I'm a Grays Anatomy, you know, pit fan. And it's like, yeah, you're the trauma surgeon, you know, ⁓ you're, you know, you're the trauma person, you're the, you know, general person versus you've got the cardiologist who, when I do heart surgery, man, I really want a specialist. Like I really want someone who knows the heart inside out, right? So you need both. And I think it also is part of that kind versus wicked environment ⁓ piece. I will also.

Shann: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Correct. But that's where for me I will say the ⁓ the hard surgeon falls a bit more in tactical planning for me. They have strategic chops to make the decisions and kind of identify things, but the tactical plan is where they're really rock and roll. A hundred percent.

Lynette: Mm-hmm. They're surgical. They go in, right? That literally where the word comes from, it's surgical. Yeah.

Shann: And there is nothing wrong with being a tactical person. I I have taken great pleasure in s sometimes when I was in that side. I think it's hugely valuable. I just think if you want to be a strategist, you gotta have to swim a bit upstream. Anyway, I'm interacting you.

Lynette: Yeah, no I No, I feel that cost. No, no, I am absolutely a thousand percent feeling that cost you're talking about about being a generalist and having that in your resume, you know, or all the slashes that we have on our LinkedIn. You're like, you know, strategist slash entrepreneur slash, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And it's hard. ⁓ because for example, you know, I was looking at a role where it was, you know, global hit of digital, and I was like, you know, reading through what it entails, and I was like, I could do that job. But because because

Shann: Yeah. They're not gonna

Lynette: Because a yeah, exactly, because my career wasn't built like digital and digital only, it didn't come from a digital only platform. What you know, of course digital was an amazing extension of majority of what we did, but it wasn't a specialization that similarly got that feedback too of like, ⁓ you know, but you didn't specialize in digital.

Shann: Yeah. Hundred percent.

Lynette: And I was like, digital is everything. Like d you know, digital should be. Right. That that's the whole whole thing about like, should there be digital strategy or should there just be strategy? ⁓ Right. Right.

Shann: I mean that Well, yeah. A hundred percent not. Like it's just no, there should be digital plans, maybe. But even that's it's it's outdated at this stage. Like having a digital moniker somewhere in a company, it's just it's wild to me.

Lynette: Yeah, yeah. And so yeah, I definitely I feel that. And I almost, you know, in my career now I'm going, okay, start a generalist, maybe I need to specialize now, but I think there is some creativity and space to think about the kinds of specializations, right? It does it nobody doesn't have to be by channel anymore. It can be by purpose, right? So for example, now I'm specializing in purpose driven and sustainable brands. Okay, right. We can specialize. I know some people who specialize in an an audience, ⁓ like women over forty.

Shann: Mm-hmm.

Lynette: Right? It's where all the money is, but also where the most undervalued, unresearched pieces are. There's a huge white space. And I think, you know, it goes back to what we talked with Rachel on the very first transition podcast, which was ⁓ at what stage do you start creating your own job description and creating your own role?

Shann: Yeah. I'd say mid mid thirties, early forties is a good time to think about this. Forty five and above is gonna be hard. I will tell you that.

Lynette: Hmm, mm, mm. Yeah. No, I mean it's interesting because I read so once again when I started this ⁓ podcast with ⁓ thinking in two years I have to specialize, what changed my mind actually was the book The Long Mile by Brian Featherstonehoer, where he talks about, you know, you're gonna work for forty-five years of your life and it actually is a marathon, not a sprint.

Shann: Okay. Mm-hmm.

Lynette: And it's broken up into three parts. The first 15 years, 15 years, is actually all about exploration. Go try weird things. Be like, what do you like? What are you good at? What are you not? The next 15 years, then is when you find your niche and you double down, because that's when you also got the most bills to pay, you know, et cetera, et cetera. You double down, and then the kids, you know, et cetera. And then the lot man, they're expensive. ⁓ you know, and and you're raising a city boy. ⁓ no, just kidding. But

Shann: Yeah. Kids.

Lynette: But and then the next fifteen years is when you go, you know, now I've done that. How do I, you know, create purpose and joy by then, you know, sharing it with the next generation or pushing or leaving a legacy. ⁓ and that really changed my perspective of thinking about it as a marathon. And they're a di yes. And that, you know, changed my mind of like I have to have this figured out in two years, right? Very Singaporean to like, I don't fucking know. Like I don't fucking know where I am and

Shann: It is.

Lynette: And ⁓ fingers crossed. Yeah.

Shann: And as Mike it's a good Mike Tyson code, everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face. I got punched a couple of times for sure. ⁓ sometimes it's nothing to do with your career. For me it was immigration deciding I could not stay in the US. It's like, okay, well that's that's a pretty big uppercut for me in terms of where I was going. And you you you find ways to do it. And I think, you know, to the point you're raising, I think it's very important to also acknowledge like I I love this framework of there's a point where you might want to specialize and I'm

Lynette: Yeah. Yeah.

Shann: Kind of in that space, but still too foxy maybe to try to go there. But I I understand it and I think it makes a ton of sense. I'll tell you what though, I will take somebody who has specialism, but has had a very diverse experience in the past over someone who's been just doing just that. I I I it's just it's and it's wild to me by the way. One of the things that drives me crazy is whenever I see companies hiring and they're hiring people who are only from their industry all the time. And I guess just like, yeah, okay, cool. You want to have some people, but why don't you bring people who've seen other things? I I have had the chance to work across so many categories and so many things, geographies and whatnot. And I have always found it super helpful to help me structure my thinking in ways that were constructive and not, I would say, blinded by some of the the the specialisms I would have had otherwise. And I think it it is a valuable skill to be a journalist. And I think in the world of AI, That would be a very interesting one for us to try to figure out as well, how to kind of coordinate those aspects and whatnot. I think AI is gonna have to throw a little bit of a a curveball. ⁓ a lot of specialisms are gonna go away pretty quickly, faster than the journalist part. Like AI, I mean, one day we'll be good at everything, let's be clear. But I still find that it's it's complicated for it to be a true orchestrator. Like it's just it doesn't really have that wider length. It just it it has a Whatever it came up with first is to just go there, is my experience. And so I think it'll be interesting to see.

Lynette: Yeah. It always ⁓ shock me. Yeah. When when it comes up in with whatever it comes up with in like a second. And you're like, okay, that that's it. Okay. ⁓ Yeah.

Shann: And you a challenge is like, ⁓ yes, absolutely you're right. Let's let's rethink this. That's a good point. It's like, yeah, you could have figured that out. But no, I think it's it's gonna be important. So yeah, I know we've agreed to agree on this podcast. ⁓ No, it's not true. We we agree a lot, you know. Sometimes I wish we were fighting more, but you we're we're sharing a lot of similar views. ⁓ but I think it was a very interesting question. Thanks for asking, you know.

Lynette: For once, for once. Yeah. Ha ha Yeah, yeah. So, you know, we need both. Maybe within the same person, maybe not, but both you and I are generalists. Let's ⁓ let's just let's just end there.

Shann: Yeah, proud journalist and and and and militant journal journalist I would probably describe us as at the end of this podcast.

Lynette: Exactly. Yeah, yeah, sh Swiss army knives.

Shann: I have no idea no issue being a Susanai. Very very, very useful.

Lynette: Me too. All right, bye, Foxy.

Shann: Linette, thank you so much. Yes, that's good to see you again. ⁓ take care of the peppers and ⁓ make sure you count the right inches with your husband, okay?

Lynette: Well does I will. You don't wanna I don't wanna count short, is all I can say. All right. Bye. See ya.

Shann: No, you don't no no, it'll be embarrassing. Good to see you and I see you next week. Bye bye.