speaker-0: You would think that would have been the most exciting thing I got to see there, but it wasn't. What was more exciting or actually ⁓ amazing maybe to me, because I think I I probably had the naive expectation that at least some of them are gonna believe once they hear the gospel. Yeah. But then they then they all embraced it and that was amazing. But then what came after that was for the next two to three years watching the Spirit of God working. In the hearts and lives of these people, turning them into good fathers and good mothers and leaders in the church and evangelists, and they're going out with the gospel and sharing the gospel. It was like you were you had a front row seat to watch the Spirit of God at work in the hearts of people who just months ago didn't even know who Jesus was. And I I just remember thinking, I would have told you I believe that God would. would work through these people, but then when you actually see it and it's happening in such profound ways, it was just like I I was almost shocked by it. Shouldn't have been, but it was

speaker-1: Welcome, friends, to the Ethnos 360 Podcast, where we talk about vital topics, have honest conversations, and unpack the Great Commission. This episode is part of the series we call Rooted and Mature. We hope you come away with greater understanding of how God will accomplish His work through us as we work together toward the goal of seeing every people group reached. Good afternoon. I'm so glad to be with you today. It's ⁓ a A good day to talk about something that's near and dear to my heart in the in the world of missions. We're going to talk today about sending agencies, ⁓ who they are, why they exist, why are they needed, what do they do, ⁓ those kinds of questions. And I'm excited because I have Steve Sanford, the CEO of Ethnos 360, on the line here with me. And he is gonna give us a little update of who he is and what he's done and how he became the CEO. and and some history on ⁓ ethnos three sixty and then we'll we'll talk more about the generalities at in a at a little bit later in the in the podcast. But without further ado, please, Steve, introduce yourself. Tell us who you are and ⁓ yeah, a little bit about yourself.

speaker-0: All right. Thanks, Keith. I appreciate you inviting me on to this. Yeah. ⁓ yeah, I was I was exposed to the reality of unreached people groups fairly young, actually very young. My father joined what was then New Tribes Mission, now Ethnos 360, before I was born. He was a pastor in Chicago. He was taken on a on a trip to the mission field by the then ⁓ president of of New Tribes Mission. And and I remember him telling me some of the stories of what he saw there. I I believe it was it was Brazil that he visited, and nobody knew they were coming. They didn't know that the president of the mission was coming with a guest, you know, because there's there's a backstory to that, but nobody knew they were coming. And he and I remember hearing this story of they arrived at a mission station on the river, way, way, way interior in the jungle. And They met this lady with her kids who her husband had just left that morning to go upriver on some kind of a contact mission to make contact with an upriver village or a different language. I don't remember the details, but there was a real danger that he could, you know, something bad could happen to him. There was hostility there back then. And and yet she was there. In the jungle with her kids and willing to take that risk. And my dad said that he just was blown away by by that level of dedication and and seeing the need that up close and decided he wanted to be part of it. He resigned his church and became part of the organization. So I grew up hearing about it my whole life. Okay.

speaker-1: Yeah. So your dad, what did he do in the organization?

speaker-0: He he wanted to go back to that same country ⁓ and be a church planter, as it turns out, knowing my dad, ⁓ you know, his gifts were not necessarily in in the language arena, so it probably wouldn't have been the best fit for him. But he was an excellent communicator. He had, you know, he had been a public speaker for years. And so the organization asked him to stay in the States and and travel around to churches and and let the need be known and see if you can, you know. Drum up some more interest in helping us. And he did that for thirty years.

speaker-1: Okay, so did you get to travel some with him at that time at times?

speaker-0: I did. I was I was, you know, elementary age, junior high age during that stage, and and anytime he would go to a church ⁓ and I could go and not miss school, I went. And so I heard so many stories and saw so many pictures. He got to visit all 250 or so of the people groups our mission was working with during his career. And so he had pictures and stories of all of them. And I I just grew up thinking, man, that's what I want to be. part of and ended up ⁓ going to our missions bible college, met my wife there and we ended up in South America ourselves.

speaker-1: Okay. So tell me so you end up in that org organization, you're you're married, you're you did you travel off with your family at the time?

speaker-0: We had one son. Yep. We had one our oldest son, Seth, was about six months old when we went to the to the field for the first time. We spent our first year, you know, just like you did this be same experience you had. But we spent our first year or so learning the language of of the country so we could get around. And then the leaders of the organization down there asked, you know, kind of worked with us to determine where would be the best fit for us. And there was a people group called the HOTI that w we had missionaries with, but we needed another member of the team to join to help with tr teaching and translation. And so they asked right they asked my wife and I to join and we said yes.

speaker-1: Okay. So you so you moved into this previously unreached people group and start learning their language and culture. Where did that take you?

speaker-0: ⁓ and so yeah, l spent the first four years of my career there learning to speak their language. It was pretty difficult language. Have to become highly fluent in the language if you're gonna be involved in Bible translation and Bible teaching, etc. So yeah, that was that was my full-time job, just like it was for you for like, you know, for me it was almost four years to become fluent. And then and then I helped with the Bible. ⁓ teaching and and had a role in helping with the translation and and we we had the privilege of teaching that people group the gospel. They were ⁓ highly motivated to learn. They were very curious about what God's word had to say. And essentially everybody in that valley came every morning to be taught. And we taught them through from Genesis to the ascension the first time through that whole story, laying foundations for who Jesus is and What he accomplished on the cross, and and they embraced it. Pretty much everybody in the in the village expressed the big faith.

speaker-1: That must have been an incredible ⁓ sight to see just one the kinda the hundred percent attendance, but then to see the hundred percent response or nearly hundred percent response, that that had to be incredible.

speaker-0: It was absolutely incredible. And as I look back on it, you you you would think that would have been the most exciting thing I got to see there, but it wasn't. Really? What was even more exciting, what was more exciting or actually ⁓ amazing, maybe to me, because I think I I probably had the naive expectation that at least some of them are gonna believe once they hear the gospel. But then they all embraced it, and that was amazing. But then what came after that was for the next two to three years, watching the Spirit of God working in the hearts and lives of these people, turning them into good fathers and good mothers and leaders in the church and evangelists, and they're going out with the gospel and sharing the gospel. It was like you were. You had a front row seat to watch the Spirit of God at work in the hearts of people who just months ago didn't even know who Jesus was. And I I just remember thinking, My goodness, I I would have told you I believe that God would would work through these people, but then when you actually see it and it's happening in such profound ways, it was just like I was almost shocked by it. Shouldn't have been, but it was.

speaker-1: It's it's funny because we know we know the gospel changes individuals. We're held reco accountable individually. We have to make that individual decision. But when a lot of individuals within a community make that decision, the whole community starts to change. And like you said, you see the effects on the community. I just quite often I think of communities and I see even on our own our own communities sometimes, you know, I want this change to come along and and I have to be reminded of that, Steve, that If we want true change, it has to come through the gospel and it has to come through God's word. And that's cool that he not only changes individuals, but he enchanged changes entire communities. So wow, what a what a crazy experience. Now, how did that go moving forward from there?

speaker-0: Yeah, so that would have ⁓ that would have been in the year two thousand that that occurred. And then we had another five to six years of we we were able to continue teaching through the New Testament as we translated it. My coworker was the translator, and we would we would teach a new book and you know, disciple, and we wanted to we wanted to see that church grow to a maturity level where they didn't need us anymore. They're capable of leading each other, teaching each other, doing all the things that the local church is is supposed to do according to the Lord. And so we were about six years into that p political climate changed in that country and we were actually kind of forced out of there. So we we left before we would have preferred to leave, but their maturity was really growing by then. They were they were equipped to share the gospel. They were equipped to ⁓ teach each other. They even selected their own elders at that point. And so even though it was a bit unexpected, it it it turned out fine. The Lord, you know, the Lord wasn't kicked out. In fact, they said that when we were leaving, they said, we know you guys have to leave, but the Lord's not leaving with you and his word's not leaving with you. And and now these 20 years later, the stories I keep hearing are just amazing. They have they have evangelized their entire language group. What started out as a group of about a hundred and fifty believers is now, I would say, r I I can't verify this by you know firsthand, but very reliable sources. It's clear there's there's probably at least a thousand believers there now. And and all the rest of those believers are the disciples of of of that original group of believers. So it's just amazing what the Lord can do with. Humble hearts that are submitted to him.

speaker-1: Yeah. I mean, that's a huge shift in the story, right? You're you're thinking two thousand five, you're thinking we're gonna stay here for the next twenty years and dedicate ourselves or thirty years, whatever it takes to to this church and to these people and to these individuals, and and you get thrown a big left left hand turn, right? And ⁓ you're you're booted out. My favorite quote you just said there was ⁓ you know, God didn't get booted out. ⁓ Jesus didn't get booted out ⁓ just 'cause you guys had to leave and I I I love that. That's such a great great story. So tell me now, you guys come back to the States. That had to be a huge transition for you. What what did you find to get involved in when you got back here?

speaker-0: By then we had three boys and you know, high school age down into elementary school. So we we needed to settle somewhere in the US where we could settle them in school and it could be a healthy environment for them. So we went back to our home area where actually our organization was starting a mobilization initiative that's still going on today in central Pennsylvania called Wyumi. And we taught there, I taught there for the next you know, almost twenty years and my wife helped with the logistics of the campus. And it it's a place where high school groups and church groups and college groups, depending on, you know, what time of year it is, we run courses for colleges and high schools and churches, really exposing them to what what is cross cultural church planting look like? How do you communicate the gospel with people you can't say hi to and Where do you start and what's the process look like? And the whole objective of that is raise awareness, raise understanding, and hopefully see God use it to send more people out.

speaker-1: More people out to unreached people groups. I heard one time you say something about you s you you guys run about a thousand college and high school age people through there a year a year. Is that about right?

speaker-0: It it's about a thousand it but that would include high school groups, college groups, and church groups. And it's been consistently about a thousand people a year the Lord has brought through there for the last twenty years, which is it's just phenomenal.

speaker-1: Yeah, and ⁓ and out of that, you know, that's that's a huge mobilizing force that ⁓ people that go, people that pray, people that give, people that get behind, others that are gonna go. So what a what a tremendous ministry. So that was in Pennsylvania, you're enjoying that. And and then how did you get to Florida and to becoming the CEO of Ethnos three sixty?

speaker-0: Yeah. Okay. So I guess around two thousand thirteen or so, I was invited to join what Ethno Street Sixty calls their executive leadership team, which you and I are both on that now. And that's the team that provides leadership to the organization. So I was I was a member, but I lived in Pennsylvania and I traveled down here often. And around ⁓ whatever that is, three or f three years ago, four years ago now, we started talking about a transition to the next CEO, Larry Brown had been doing it for sixteen or seventeen years and and he was he was being pulled into some other areas of ministry and just felt like it's time to begin a transition. And long story short, I was asked to make that transition and my wife and I agreed and moved down here about two and a half years ago now.

speaker-1: Okay. And so you became the CEO of Ethnos three sixty. I wanna shift gears here a little bit from your personal story to tell me a little bit of the the history of Ethno three sixty. Where did where did Ethnos three sixty get started and and what are they all about today?

speaker-0: Day. So we're about 80, almost 85 years. I think our 85th anniversary is coming up here very quickly. a man named Paul Fleming, he's our founder. In fact, he's I can if his picture's on my wall, if I could show that to you. But he he was a young man who heard about unreached people groups, whole languages that have never heard the name of Jesus. And he went to Asia, a region in Asia, to be a missionary and do something about it. And He was there for I can't remember how long he was there before he he came down with malaria. He had it multiple times. It was really ravaging his body. He had to come home to the U.S. and the doctors here said you can't go back or you'll die if you get it again. So he decided to try to share what he had seen over there with the church here in the States. And he did that. He barnstormed the U.S. And he got meetings in churches all over the place and people were responding. He was apparently a very motivational type of guy. Right. And people were responding, but there were not, as I understand it, agencies at that time who would accept the kind of people who were responding. These were people who didn't necessarily have college degrees behind their name. Maybe they already had a family going and they had several kids and they wanted to go serve God on the mission field and they kept getting turned down and that really bothered this guy. And in fact, this is something etched in our heads if we're part of this organization, is one of the one of the sort of sayings of the day or mantras of that day was God can use any life yielded to him. Wow. Now that doesn't mean that God could make a translator out of anybody, and we're not saying that, but Anybody who is a believer, submitted to the Lord, wants to be used by the Lord, there's a place for them in this task. And he believed that. So he founded New Tribes Mission along with a couple other guys, ⁓ very key guys in our history. ⁓ and that was the objective. And it started out very small, and it grew really from the 1960s through the nineties. It really grew rapidly. And to one of the largest mission agencies that there is.

speaker-1: Okay, so and their primary focus was unreached people groups. Just tell me a just to give me a quick kind of working definition of an unreached people group and and so we know exactly what their target was.

speaker-0: So the general consensus understanding of what an unreached people group is is a people group where there may be some believers in that people group, but not enough that or or let me put it this way, not a functioning gathering of local believers, what we would call a local church, from which the gospel could spread to the rest of that people group. That's that's what we typically call unreached, but then there's a category called unengaged. And that's even worse. That's where there isn't even maybe any believers in that people group and nobody trying to reach them. And those are the target people groups that we're trying to reach.

speaker-1: And of course these people groups are distinguished by their language and their culture and their location and their economic status and all these other cultural things that kinda keep them isolated from from the gospel. Okay.

speaker-0: So

speaker-1: He starts this organization and like what are some key milestones that over time that kind of d you know, defined this organization?

speaker-0: Yeah. There was a lot of what would I how what would be the word, lot of major setbacks in the early in the first ten years, my goodness, the founder, Paul Fleming, was killed in a plane crash. That was wow monumental. the very first five missionaries that the organization trained and sent out, which included a co founder of the mission who led that team. They were martyred in South America by a a people group called the ⁓ called the IOD. And that was like in the first ten years. Also in that first ten years, there was a group of our students, some of the very first students that had given their life to be trained. Out in California, they were helping to fight a forest fire as volunteers, and and they ended up about Twenty plus were killed in that fire. It's still to this day, I believe, the second largest loss of American life fighting a fire in the continental US. And that was all within the first ten years. And it's it just seems like the enemy was really trying to shut this down before it got started. We got through that phase and and the organization started to grow and really started to learn. ⁓ how how do you go about reaching unreached people groups like this? There there wasn't really a manual to follow, right? You reach how do you reach into isolated areas and learn language and culture and so it was a it was a learning process for a long time.

speaker-1: Yeah. So I think I think if I saw the other day, I think I know we've been into well over seventy different countries, ⁓ several hundred different people groups. But in those early days, we didn't we didn't know how to go about being really systematic in our processes for learning language, learning culture, you know, all those things that go into this, because one of the things I know we are passionate about is we believe God communicates in heart languages. So So tell me a little bit about how this organization developed that along the way, that training along the way, or that learning experience along the way.

speaker-0: My understanding as I I read through the history and we have a lot of this history documented from early magazines and et cetera that were published by us. And I think there was a lot of talented people back in those days that were just, you know, kind of figuring out fig there was some training. I don't wanna I wanna I don't want to imply there was no training. There was training but we didn't know what we were really training people for back then. So language learning techniques started to improve. We had some really gifted language learners who were highly academic, some of them, and they were studying from some of the learning from some of the best minds in that area who were writing books about this. And they that stuff started to work its way into our training program. We really believe in in quality training. To prepare people for this, don't just send them over there and hope for the best. It's an incredibly difficult challenge to learn a language. And if you're not equipped with tools to do that, it's not gonna go well. So I think through the 50s and 60s, those things started to started to really learn a lot. And by the seventies, at least the language learning and culture learning side of things was. greatly improved, even though today it's even way better because we've learned in our career, we've learned so many things as an organization to improve that.

speaker-1: Right. And and ⁓ I mean obviously language is is a huge barrier. Talk to me just a little bit about why you feel it's important to understand culture ⁓ before you just dive into cross cultural ministry.

speaker-0: Yeah, I think that's something growing up here in the U.S. I had no idea of. I understood the language barrier, but ⁓ the culture barrier, the worldview barrier I didn't understand. I was trained in it before I went, thankfully. But so even in my own example of the people group I lived with, what I discovered, and I think this is true in any culture in the world, God's enemy has intentionally influenced the worldview of people groups that have Not had access to God's word. And he has, I would say he has actually these manipulated and designed them to make it hard to understand the gospel. There's little landmines, there's there's there's these wrong beliefs and conceptions that are designed to thwart some significant truth from God's word. And if you don't know what they are, if you do not know how that those hearers are gonna and are going to interpret what God is saying, you will not be able to communicate with them because they're gonna interpret it through their worldview grid. They're it's gonna be misinterpreted. And if you don't know what that is, you just merrily go along teaching and you've confused everybody and you don't know why.

speaker-1: Yep. And then and you're using all the right language but you don't realize that even though you're using the right words, what they're perceiving or how they're viewing what you're saying is is significantly clouded or ⁓ misunderstood or whatever. Yeah.

speaker-0: Even distorted, really distorted at times.

speaker-1: That's a good word. It's a good word. So we've improved greatly over the years with culture and language acquisition. Training's a huge part of it. What are some of the other aspects that ethnos three sixty ⁓ you know would kind of be be good at? What are what are we known for? What are we good at? What do we we what do we ⁓ look how do we define ourselves?

speaker-0: Okay, and and and so all of this all that we're talking about, we're you know, we're we're wanting to be very careful to give the Lord the credit for this. These are things that that He has taught individuals within our organization these lessons and then they share them with others and and I think one of the one of the biggest, Keith, is the the understanding That in order for somebody who's had no exposure to God's word, they don't have a foundation of understanding of who he is and what sin is and what happened to the human race and why sin is a problem and what the penalty for sin is. They don't have any of that foundation. It's critical to start at the beginning of the word of God and allow God's word to lay those foundations, which is what the old testament does. For the understanding of the gospel. That understanding for us, I I don't wanna overstate it and say that previous to the nineteen eighties, you know, no missionaries in our organization had done this. They there were some that had you know, the Lord led them to do this, but it it didn't become codified sort of in our in our in our methodology until around the nineteen eighties, and that was a missionary over in the Philippines who Was sent into a to a reached people group. What and I say reached, there was a question of how how much do they understand the gospel? And he went in there and he learned the language and he started asking questions and he found that they weren't understanding the gospel. And he found that he kept having to go back to Old Testament stories to help them understand. And then he realized, or he the thought came to him from the Lord, I believe, why am I?

speaker-1: Kind.

speaker-0: Why am I going back all the time? Why don't I start at the beginning and lay this out carefully? And his name was Trevor McIlwain, and and he's somebody that we kind of revere in our organization because the Lord the Lord led him through this. He developed a a ⁓ lesson plan, you might say. We call it foundational teaching in our organization. And from the 80s until today, that has been our methodology. And I will tell you I've heard story after story as you have of how effective that has been, how that changed, like overnight, there the people's ability to understand. And I would say we would we would count that as kind of a a character trait of our methodology.

speaker-1: That's right. That's right. I know, yeah, just experiencing that myself and using that methodology, ⁓ I can't imagine doing ministry any other way. ⁓ when trying to plant a church, it doesn't mean I don't share the gospel on an airplane or in an elevator or whenever I can, but but boy, when you have the opportunity to sit sit down with somebody and walk them through ⁓ the story that's in the Bible of how God redeems us and rescues us and comes to save us. ⁓ yeah, it's hugely impactful. Every time I hear it, and I've I've had it preached to me and I've had the opportunity of preaching it. And every time I I'm tremendously moved by it's such a gracious God that pursues pursues restoration with us. That's that's really cool. And I would say that's that's one of the things that I I I don't think our will ever change in our organization. We're always going to be committed to that, that long term foundational Bible teaching. Yeah. All right. So today, tell me a little bit about Ethnos three sixty today. What are what are we up to these days and where are we going? What's your vision for Ethnos three sixty today?

speaker-0: So today Ethnos three sixty is a part of a what we call a a a partnership. What was at one time New Tribes Mission International is now really a collection of partner organizations that share the same doctrine, the same methodology, all the stuff we've been talking about. So here in the US, Ethnos three sixty, we are our are part of this partnership is mobilizing and training and providing the logistical support for messengers of the gospel to go. They go, they join up with one of our our partner organizations in a place where there are unreached people groups and they learn language and culture, all the stuff we've been talking about. And our objective is a maturing, functioning, healthy local church in every people group that needs one in that in that region. So we're in around forty countries and I think gl all together in that partnership there's maybe twenty five hundred to three thousand coworkers working together to accomplish that.

speaker-1: Wow, that's really that's tremendous. What what do you see as the biggest challenges of being a sending agency in today's world?

speaker-0: ⁓ I guess I would have to say Like in in my lifetime, I've seen a significant shift in the church's attitude toward this. And that's a generalized statement because there are many churches that this would not be true of many. But I I think when I was a kid, I think back to when I was a kid, traveling around with my father as he would get week long missions meetings in churches, it was the common sort of view. Christian world view of the average churchgoer that to serve God with your life is a normal and good thing for a Christian to do. And if my child grows up to want to do it, I'm happy about that. Wow. So you could you could come in, share missions, and you know, five five couples say, I want to go do that. Whereas I think the shift today, and I'm not trying to be critical, I'm just trying to share what I think I observe, it has It has reached a place in our Christian culture where to do something like this is not normal. ⁓ it's it's perceived maybe to be a bit radical and you know, for a for a few very select people, but you know, again, for lack of a better way to say it, not my kid, somebody else's kid, sort of. Right. And I think that's greatly impacting us. At at that Wyumi campus I told you about where we were for twenty years, we we got to talk to literally hundreds and hundreds of young people through that time. And I heard so many times young people say, college age, I would love to do this, but I don't think, you know, I would get the support of my family or I wouldn't get the support of my church. And so I think that's a shift that's unless there's a significant sort of revival in our US Christian culture towards reaching the world with the gospel, not just here, but the world, we're gonna face a an uphill battle in in sort of replenishing the missionary force out there.

speaker-1: Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna cut this section off here. I want to talk to you some more ⁓ in our next episode. ⁓ but I I just wanna leave with that challenge right there to the pastors or to the individuals that are out there. First of all, to the individuals that think, man, I'm I might want to join Ethnos three sixty. I would say that would be awesome. We'd love to have you ⁓ please reach out and contact us and we'll get you started with that process. You may be scared, you may worry about all those things. ⁓ and how's that gonna how well here's the thing. We we serve a good shepherd, a good father, and he will t he will take care of you and guide you along the way. And then I just want to leave a little challenge to the pastors that Steve just mentioned. I think to the pastors out there, ⁓ challenge people to be involved in cross-cultural ministry. Give them the opportunity to respond to that. And if they do respond, Get behind them and support ⁓ and and send them on their way. ⁓ go with them along the way. And ⁓ it is still a goal of the church to see every unreached people group reached, and we want to see that happen in our generation or as soon as possible. So thanks for joining us today and I'll be back with you shortly. Thank you for investing the time to listen to today's episode. It's our prayer that what you heard causes you to think more about your next step as a believer.

speaker-0: Yes.

speaker-1: Who understands the Great Commission. If this was encouraging to you, please take a moment to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast. We don't take the privilege of your time lightly, and if we can help answer any questions this episode may have raised in your minds, feel free to reach out to us at podcast at ntm.org, or you can contact us via our socials. And finally, this podcast is a production of Ethnos 360, all rights reserved.