Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Hi Nancy. How are you? We're back. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Hi Bee Doing well things, how are you? Bee Murray, Bee Formless: I'm good. I'm good. And here we are, we're back. I haven't yet pushed out our pod because you asked to film another little bit more, which I was quite I I love that. I love that sometimes you know, my guests, you know, come back and they're saying, I had a th I had a thought about something and I do it too. And so I'm gonna hand it over to you straight away because what's gonna happen is I'm gonna put this into the edit as it is. so for all the listeners out there, you'll you'll see this original edit we did and I asked Nancy a question and at the time Nancy gave me an answer and has since then thought about it and wanted to share a different answer, which is the beauty of being formless, that we are allowed to shape and reshape and have different forms and that's That's what it's all about. So Nancy, I'm gonna hand it over to you. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Bee and thank you for the opportunity to readdress my views on the workplace for people and where I think we are and where we're going to end up and what the opportunities might be. At least that's how I've reframed it since we last spoke. And that really got me to think a lot about why I was so uncomfortable giving an answer, and I'm generally a very positive person and why was I feeling so much negativity? What was that bias coming from? Where was I in that moment? And that shows up in my life and I'm sure many people's lives. And it could be something you read, it could be something you heard, and we all form these biases. And the response I gave was how I was feeling at the moment, at the US particularly with whatever had been going on in the news that day that it upset Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: me and had me feeling very negative Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Name. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: about where we are. But that's not really how I feel in general. So thank you for Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: the opportunity to getting to step back and rethink about that and what matters. So I I spent this time speaking with different people, learning about where my bias was coming from and repositioning myself with really what what do I think? If somebody is coming to me and asking me, what are the opportunities today? So I'm going Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: to narrow that to who are my peers. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: No. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: My peers are generally professional, white-collar in the US or Europe or Australia and generally in IT or sales or operations. So I'm going to have my my thoughts in that perspective. And then it even separates the men and women. So I'm going to focus more on women. And I think it ties into this built-to-matter and I came up with that phrase when I launched a ballast group. And I'm still forming what that means. And I came back to that in this discussion. Explore within yourself why you matter. Speak with your friends, speak with your colleagues. That inner dialogue is hard. Use Chat GPT or Claude and discover about yourself. What makes you unique and then that is your center Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: and stay with that center. Where I'm seeing people flail and panic is looking at what jobs are out there and looking at who's applying and what are the credentials and it's it's reactive. And they're They're trying to mold into perhaps something that isn't them, which used to work before. And I'm not seeing that today. I'm seeing the person who is more like me, where they just got fed up, they're in a position to be an entrepreneur, they understand what it is they can do, go out and do it. Differentiate yourself and do it. And do it boldly. And I want to say do it loudly and do it with color and give it your all and make yourself known that you matter and see what you attract. Our business has grown through referral because i knowingly or unknowingly, that's what I did in the beginning. And I attracted people to me. And now I'm going to be working on some outreach and working with a company to help me with the narrative for myself and for Valence Group and it's come full circle. Where I was off was trying to fit into that mold. What is a company like ours how do they present themselves? And I lost my my mission, my my center, my built-in matter of Why are we different? And s and talking about that and speaking to my audience. And I realized that when I got into the writing, I had lost my voice. And I was trying to be like everybody else. But then it was a mixed message. So Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, it always is. Yeah. I've done the same and it's he it's happened, yeah. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: So be true to yourself, discover who you are, why you matter, and who cares about that? Who's looking for that? That's your new circle, that's your new business friend circle, that's your new network. And that's something B we talked about where was going out on our own, you rediscover that your peers are different. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, totally. And and you brought and the egg. The egg, right? Like it's like look after that egg. Look after the business egg. Look after you as an egg. Like I I'm using your words. For me, this is beautiful, Nancy, and I love that you've you know, like we all have biases and we all have moments where Someone asks us a question and we answer it in a way and then we think about it later and go, Why did I say it like that? That wasn't me. I that's not me speaking from the inside out. I was speaking from the outside in. Because we do, we get all these signals, all these noises around us. Here's the thing, right? We all have a voice. We our our brand, our our personal brand. And I think more than ever, what you're saying here is like be your authentic self and Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Yes. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: and stop worrying about all the noise out there. possibilities are endless. You know, you you go online, you look at the news, and there's just negative, negative, negative, negative everywhere. And so we Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Exactly. Exactly. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: we have a choice. We can either get consumed by it, let it impact us, or we can stay true to what matters to to use your language. And that's what you're talking about here. And I absolutely love that we've come back on to have this this conversation because it's all that matters is what's coming from the inside is all that matters. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: And the money will come. Follow your passion. You will attract. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: A hundred percent. Yeah. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: And and then the money will come. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, I agree. Thank you, Nancy. What a beautiful way to to to finish. I love that you came back and y you know, we did we did this question and it's it's so it's so authentic in terms of just the way you've you've chosen to do this. So excuse me, I'm gonna say a big thank you. Do you have any other as much as is gonna go back into the edit, is there any other words of wisdom you want to share in terms of anything else, one last thing you would like to share with everybody? Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: would I I would filter your intake. And what's forming your views and your biases so you can stay positive. There's so much negativity out there as you just said, B. there's leadership groups, there's mental health on LinkedIn. I now have books to inspire me and I'm actually reading them. and I wanted the physical books so they would be around me and the titles would remind me about the lessons I'm learning in them. So surround yourself with positivity and content that will fuel you, people that will fuel you and encourage Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, I agree. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: you so you can be all of that. And then when you when you start to lose that courage inside, because we all do, you have a network of people who will lift you up. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: And I the last thing I would add to that is just the power of the pause. Like when we pause And I call it non time and just the ability to sit with the uncomfortable. Like listen to what's coming up. Like listen to what's being you're being told from the inside because you have all the answers from the inside. And so when you do like choose what to listen to and what not to listen to, the nudges are all there. The answers come within those whispers, whatever you want to call it. Like it it's only when we're in the in those moments of being present and pausing that we get the answers to what's what comes next. So Nancy thank Thank you so much. I'm going to put this at the start of the edit and so we'll get on into the episode straight after this. So thank you, Nancy, and have a wonderful end of the week. Thank you. Thanks, Nancy. Thank you. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Thank you. And safe travels next week. Thanks. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Hello welcome to the Bee Formless Flow Driven CEO podcast, where we are reshaping life leadership and business from the inside out. And today I'm welcome welcoming to the show Nancy Jacobs. Welcome to the show, Nancy. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Thank you, B. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Thank you. We've had a we've had a little bit of a tech tech challenge, haven't we? And it's been fun. It's like things happen the way they're meant to happen, Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Yeah. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: but here we are, we're finally here. How's your week going? Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: going great. I'm living the dream, which I'm sure we'll get to. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: I love that you're living the dream. And it's what i what is it? It's ten past six, quarter past six PM nearly. Where are you again? Remind me where you are again. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Yes. Live in Atlanta. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: That's right, Atlanta. Mm, beautiful. Is the weather nice there at the moment? Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Well it's hot and humid. Most people despise August in Atlanta. I love the heat. So I'm loving it. This is my home. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: I love the hate. Yeah, I love the heat too. Beautiful. And then then people will be claim complaining when it gets cold. Like we're coming, we're just noticing how it's coming, it's getting nicer of the weather anyway. So that's not what we're here to talk about though today. Firstly, I'm just gonna say a big kind hello to all the listeners out there and thank you for listening to the Bee Formist Fly Juan CEO podcast. Please share, like, comment, let us know what is interesting you from all these amazing, diverse conversations. Today, Nancy, we're gonna get right into it. You You are the founder of Ovali Group, which is Ovalis Group, which is a strategic business you're a strategic business leader and entrepreneur, bringing more than 35 years of experience to to building a more human, adaptive and value led values led approach to business and technology. You had an important inflection point though, Nancy, and it emerged when you began questioning the systems that have shaped much of your career. Systems that often rewarded certainty, hierarchy, and conformity. I know all about that as well. Like the con the word conformity drives me crazy. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: That's what Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Rather th rather than continuing to measure relevance through titles, roles, or traditional diff definitions of success, Nancy, you began reshaping your work around trust, curiosity, care and the fr The freedom to remain fully yourself. Today through Avalis Group, Nancy helps organizations improve how they work and adopt technology in ways that create genuine business value without asking people to lose their humanity in the process. And at the heart and soul of your work is a belief that empathy and commercial success are not competing ideas. Businesses can grow without losing their humanity. People can contribute without Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Yeah. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: shrinking themselves, and technology can expand. human potential rather than diminish it. Tell us a bit about your journey, because you've had quite the quite the story. Thirty-five years, you know, when we caught up the other week, there's this certainty, Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Yeah. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: conformity, all of that. Yeah, tell us about it. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Yeah, it when I first started working, I just had this rosy idea of what it would be like. You work hard, you're successful, you keep doing the right thing, and you will be rewarded. And when that wasn't happening, I thought, well, maybe it's the wrong job, maybe it's wrong industry, maybe it's the wrong manager, maybe it's and as I matured and tried different experiences, it it circled back to frustration, it not being successful, having ideas stolen outright, with the what are you going to do about it? Are you going to sue XYZ company? No. so there were a lot of lessons, very hard lessons. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: And It was this last end of last year and I I just had it. I was fed up with the workforce in general, not just where I was and the industry I was in, but all over the place, the greed and what what's happening globally. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: And no matter where I looked, whether it was work or people being divided, in the United States, it's it's for the very first time in my life, I'm not proud. I don't have that pride. so I kept shrinking my world smaller and smaller and smaller. and then Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Nancy, sorry, just to pause you there for a second. Did you also lose w as you were shrinking w as your world was shrinking, you you were shrinking your world? Did you notice that the inside of you was shrinking as well? Like did you notice that your confidence you know who you were were was also shrinking? Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Just the opposite. I was finding peace. I was finding a reduction in anxiety Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: and found a quietness to really focus on had fewer distractions. It started off limiting myself to my property, my physical property, and that came with COVID and health risks. and I love travel. I love getting out. I love meeting people. I love events. I love public speaking. and I wasn't sure how I would do with that. And thankfully, videos became common and being on camera for work and I'll be on camera in a work meeting, even if nobody else is, because I don't want to be forgotten. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Same. No. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: I want to be seen and this is my place. And I found a peace. I found fewer distractions, and I found time to be quiet with my thoughts, and that was frightening. having you know lived and thrived in New York City, loving that movement and to go from that to a quiet place, it forced me, I guess it didn't force me, it was my choice, to allow that quiet. And Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: then to start building myself back up. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, incredible. And how did you start to then build yourself back up? Like what was it that like what were the steps that you took to build yourself back up? Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: So it was a few failures. So I was going to completely tap out of the workforce and just take a break and possibly retire. Which isn't me. It's not my family. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: I was about to say I can't imagine you retiring ever. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Yeah, my mother's 92 and she she sold her company when she was 78, but she still advises. my father worked until a week before he passed of cancer. We Bee Murray, Bee Formless: No, I'm sorry. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: love working. We love using our mind. I say we my my immediate family. and now once again, thankfully, once I started doing a value script, I feel 20 years younger. and I don't see ever stopping. And that makes me so happy. What? What I learned in that quiet time was I have nothing to lose by trying what I believe is the right way of working. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: I have nothing to lose. I'm not bringing anyone else into it. So I started on my own and a few customers had come to me. And this worked out because I had two paths where I thought I was going to go work for somebody else and just, you know, work out my ears. And both of those doors shut. So I was like, you know, I'm going to try this. And I tried with a few customers, but I didn't let them pay me. I really believe in fairness. And if I wasn't Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, I agree. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: for the value I could deliver, I'm not going to charge anybody. The value started being there, and I started to need some help. So there was one woman I reached out to and I said. I'm I'm not collecting money from customers. You need to know your worth. She's she's 30 years younger than I am, and I've worked with her before and I've been able to mentor her. and one of the key pieces I've been teaching her is know your value, know your worth. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, I love that. So true though, isn't it? Like especially as we're, you know, younger and and I I think in particular females know your value, know your worth. Yeah. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Exactly. So it was limited hours and she was able to help me. Then one of my customers said, I have something bigger for you, but you need to let me pay you. Can you take money? I said, give me 24 hours. So LLC, got a business account, and I was like, Yes, I can I can take money. Great, can you take credit cards? Give me 24 hours. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: You're building it as you go. I love it. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: So exactly, exactly. So that's what I've done is building organically. And the woman, Nicole, I said, okay, if we do this, let's decide what our values are. If we're going to build this, what do we want it to be? So she and I came up with what you just talked about of our core values. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: And what's interesting is eventually we got to it's the opposite of the seven deadly sins. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Well yeah, very cool. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: And that's on our website, you know, instead of gluttony, instead of and so there's we talk about what what the opposite is in a business context, in a work environment, or in life. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: You don't need to be greedy. There's enough for everybody. More Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, agree. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: people that have that that practice, the more true it is. So we go ahead. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Incorrect. No no you no keep going, sorry. I was gonna ask you a question, but you keep going. I don't want to lose your Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Okay. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: chain of thought. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: So we decided what that meant. And so we have immutable laws. And whenever we create a process, I believe in all areas of life, it's got to be living and breathing. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Agree. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: And you revisit it. And you have and and it's and I put reminders on my calendar. I have not even made it to a reminder to revisit something. Because if you're thinking about when we started with these seven immutable laws, at one point I was like, these are the opposite of the seven deadly sins, and then rewrote them to be the opposite of seven deadly sins. So when there's an idea, something that I think is really important is write it down. Write it down someplace. I don't care if it's a napkin, in the computer, wherever it is, write it down. And and revisit it and develop it and over time see what it turns into. So we decided to grow organically, and I wanted to grow it to a point where, worst-case scenario, I could afford to pay people and our monthly expenses. I might not take a salary, but out of my own pocket I could take care of the monthly bills. Within three months we were break even. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Incredible. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: and we grow intentionally because what I what I can't have happen is I can't let anybody go. And each person was hand selected. So I picked Nicole and then I said Nicole you're going to manage the people who deliver. And I always think of it like a restaurant. I love food. You're the back of the house, you're the kitchen, you're the back of the house. I'm the front of the house. And we Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, I love it. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: need to coordinate and always be in sync. but I'm not going to tell you who you need to have in your kitchen and then ask you to manage the kitchen. These are your decisions. And she had Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: never managed before. So that was an interesting journey. And she's well, some of these people, you know, one person was my manager, or these other people have so much more skills. I said, we'll revisit this in six months. Managing is a whole different animal than being an individual contributor and the skills. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: You have the natural abilities, and she trusts me. So we've grown intentionally, and One aspect I love is that nobody is a US citizen. So I don't have Bee Murray, Bee Formless: really? Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: to follow US HR laws. I still respect and know boundaries and lines. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: And I can be more of a mentor and show up for who each person needs me to be. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: So is your business remote then Nancy? Is Avalus Group remote? And and where is everyone Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Hundred percent. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: around the world? Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: So I'm in Atlanta, Georgia. The technical team is in the Philippines. I have a contractor who helps with one application. He's Ukrainian and living in France. and I don't I don't care where somebody's from. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: No. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: No, I say that and I take that back. I do care where somebody's from because culture matters. And we all grow up in different environments and we have different experiences. And there are some cultures that are more in sync naturally with our values than others. I'm not saying one is better in general than the other. This one's better for me. So I do look for Geographies, people, whether it's religion or s spiritual or or geography, geographically, that are more in tune and aligned with where I want Ovalos Group to be and where I want to grow. I've learned so much about the Filipino culture, and I've worked with people in the Philippines since I was at Coca-Cola in 2012, and now that this is our team. I get to do so much more and explore so much more. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Incredible. Incredible. So Nan Nancy, tell us a little bit, I've got quite a few questions for you. When did you start Ovalis Group? And Pardon? Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Well, I'm cool. Yes, go ahead. When did I start and Bee Murray, Bee Formless: No, you to answer that one and then I'll ask you my next question. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Right. November ninth, the day after my birthday. and it was I incorporated when the one person said to me, Can I take money? That was November Bee Murray, Bee Formless: And that was last year, November the 9th last year. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: ninth. Mm-hmm. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: incredible. Incredible. Incredible. And have you and have you had to actively like we talk about know your value, know your worth, the opposite of the seven deadly sins. Like I keep thinking about extractive versus regenerative. how you approach business. Obviously you've worked in the big, you know, corporates like the Coca-Cola's of the world. I've worked in big corporates and had big clients myself, in my old world. like do you chase new business? How does it work? Like I mean, what's your view on clients? You know, you've talked about a few clients that have said I want to do more work with you, but can I pay you? sort of thing. I'd love your your view on that. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: That's an interesting question, especially today, because it was tested today. Everything up until this week has been referral only. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: And that has worked well. With the exception of I'm still not paying myself. So I needed to revisit my plan and revisit who do we want to be and What is our model? Because I love our model. Our model is we don't sell buckets of hours, we don't sell packages. When you need us, we're here. There's not another Salesforce consultancy. There might be an individual, but there's not another company globally that does this. And people tell me you can't do that. They're going to take advantage of you. Why would it? It it's it's the long game. Why would they ever leave me? Our acquisition cost. So then I had to look at well, how many customers do I need in order to sustain that model and pay myself? Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: so I decided that I did need to start marketing. And the so two things happened today. One, a a client where It was a referral, but it was more I still had to sell a bit. So there was a referral where somebody recommended two companies and I needed to meet with this company and and its globally known name. and I had no idea who who else they were meeting. and we got the business. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Well done. Congratulations. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Yeah. And then today there was a meeting invitation that he said last week he said, we want to connect with you next week. And the only thing it said was Ovalis chat. And it was one hour. So of course I'm in my head. Well it's not 30 minutes, so it's not necessarily a wrap-up, but what does it mean? so of course my mind, you know, I it it went different places and I tried to keep it focused, but you know, it's going to go where it goes. And not only are they continuing, they have three projects right away, and then he has a whole backlog of ideas. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: That's exciting. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: So I feel that I've now really branched out to people who don't know me. And I had one other c I have one other big customer where it was a referral. I wasn't up against anybody else. They said, you're in trouble, this is the person with whom you need to speak. And we showed them within a few weeks that that was accurate. This customer that I just mentioned to me really felt like a new one, like a true new net new Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: the other thing that happened was I we did our first direct mail campaign yesterday. Guess what my open and click rate get my open rate was? Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Hundred percent. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Now. Direct mail is five percent response. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Okay, gosh, I was just like throwing it out there. I haven't had a coffee yet. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Yeah. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: I don't know, five percent. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Seventy percent. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Seventy. Well that's why I went up to a hundred. Like like amazing. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Well that's the very guys. and that was Bee Murray, Bee Formless: I don't think you can underestimate direct mail though. Like I I call it snail mail, right? Like it's direct mail is like people like want to see things again. Like, I don't know about you, but I wake up most mornings. I mean, you're you're you work with them to adopt the technology, et cetera. Like, I'm just like overwhelmed every day, like just looking at the amount Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Yes. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: of Emails, messages, like even just like your phone, just pings nonstop. It's like where do you start? Like, you know what I mean? I don't know where to start, but it's just tiring. It's just tiring. So getting some refreshing something in the mail or like looking at something that's not a screen or Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: I agree a hundred percent. my my mother who I mentioned, my my ninety-two year old mother, she's also our CFO and one of my advisors because she's good. and She said, What about direct mail? She's an accountant and tax preparer, so this isn't even her, but she keeps up. She keeps up with technology, she keeps up with everything. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: And she's like, What about direct mail? And I said, I think you're absolutely right. In that direct mail, there is room again for it because we're not getting all that junk mail anymore, not for this industry. Now I will say though, I am also exhausted by the AI slop and The emails that I'm getting that are clearly AI written, I block and report a spam. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, I gr I agree. Like, I mean, this is this is what's going on for me, right? And I'll be interested in your thoughts in terms of you help organizations improve how they work and adopt technology in the in ways that create genuine business value. Like for me at the moment, I've almost gone, I'm having a break from it. Like I'm using it, but I'm almost like, what's happened to me? One at one point I was like this, like, give it to me, give it to me. But I'm just watching it because I'm reading all this stuff, going. It's it's going to calm down, like and everything's changing so fast every week. I'm not I'm not ignoring it. I'm not right list like reading I I'm just watching what is going to I guess just stabilize in a way and like I read this fascinating article yesterday about the phones and I don't know, I just it's just feeling a little like you say, there's just so much slop out there. I just I kinda just don't want to be get involved in it. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: I agree. And I absolutely keep an eye on it because our customers are asking me about AI. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: And keep an eye on it. Bee genuine. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Say hello to people, have conversations. Don't sell. And when I'm meeting with people and doing an outreach, it's nothing for me, it's all about them. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: I'm seeing these problems. This is how this is specifically what's what has helped other companies or this is what they realize, not how we help. They don't want to know how the sausage is made. They Bee Murray, Bee Formless: No. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: just want to know here's a hot plate of food and here you go. Have a meal on us, get to know me. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: And again it's it's the it's the long game. I don't even like using the word game because it's not a game. It's building real relationships and the people that want real relationships, they'll be attracted to that. So I want I believe we'll be successful when we gain people and because they're com you gain a com you don't gain a company, you gain a person, right? You gain a relationship. So when Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. Great. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: I gain a relationship, it's going to be through attraction, not because I'm promoting something. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: And do you think that's a new form of business? Like you've been in the you've been in it in the I was about to say game that you've been in it for years, right? Like what are you noticing that is? I mean, I love the word attraction as well and I think it's less about like sell, sell, sell or you know, like hardcore and more around Energy, energy, the way it flows, you know, I'm all around people and relationships and all of that. And I think it's comes down to trust and and how you speak to somebody, ha active listening, all of that, right? It's genuine. Come back to what you were saying earlier. What do you think and I also love that you talk about this foundation because I think with so much AI slop out there, there's a lot of shiny businesses that aren't going to see the light of day because like everyone can say I've got this AI business now. Okay, so how is it being built to last the distance? What is what does it look like, you know, in a year's time, let alone like two or three years' time? and yes plans need to change. I just I I'm just interested in your thoughts on what do you see as the future of of business? What does it look like to you? Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: boy, that's a that's a really big question. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: No I think. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: what does it look like? Unfortunately, and it it depends on what time frame we're talking about. I think so I'm comparing this to the mid nineties with the internet. I was a B2B analyst at Jupiter Communications Heading the conference division. And we were the first B2B analytics company in the internet space back when Amazon was getting started. Everyone was getting started. And it changed. It changed drastically. But there was a time period of about ten years when Madison Avenue was saying, for example, that We're not getting involved in internet advertising. Double click, do your thing. We're not even engaging. It's not going to happen. And that that took five years, ten years until Madison Avenue caught up. Martin Easenholtz, who was head of the New York Times online in speaking with him back then, print will never be dead. People like to hold a newspaper, people like to touch a newspaper, that won't die. the Atlanta Journal Constitution, I believe it it's no longer being printed, but print is is dying. how we feel about that is is another conversation. The reality is there's there's shifts, right? So what does it mean with the age of AI or faster computing, more automation, a greater distance between the super wealthy and it the the whole class system, regardless of where you are in the world. But I'm really speaking about Australia, United States, Europe, Canada, parts of Asia. I think that I'm trying to only look 10 years out, 10, 15 Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: years out. based on my age, that's what I can manage. And I feel fortunate that I don't have to look further out than that because it's a little bit scary. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: I think that unless something radically changes the fangs, Facebook, Amazon. You know, the Fang companies, Google, are just going to get bigger and stronger. And the smaller companies, just like we saw with the big box and and online shopping, I don't think they're going to exist. I think it's Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: going to be a very different world. We see the layoffs on LinkedIn. people who are incredibly talented struggling to get jobs. I am I think the people who know how to live off the land and know how to take care of themselves will be okay. I think those who have money saved, have a skill that will last through this will be okay. I am fearful for those just graduate those in school. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Fear for the youth. I fear for us with the youth because look at the situation they're in. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah I I think that there's there's there's that. There's also like I I think there's a time, what a time for entrepreneurialism, right? And I think that this is the opportunity to re sh reshape what business looks like. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Yes. Yes. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: You know, you could argue that I also saw again, I woke up to something this morning that the death of social media, like as we know it, like the Facebooks, all of those of the world. So I think that it's hard to predict, isn't it? Like in that, you know, when we come right back to certainty and conformity, and I think those that, you know, are able People to embrace the unknown, be strategic when they're you know, stepping into the unknown and also take risks, take the calculated risks. Like that's that's that's breaking out of the like conformity. I think they're the ones that will a will enable us to have a different way of what business could look like and and that's what I'm I'm excited about. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: I hope so. And I am optimistic with that. So I do think the people who can be entrepreneurs, because not everybody can. I was looking Bee Murray, Bee Formless: No. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: at a much larger scale with with that answer. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: it is the perfect time to be an entrepreneur. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. It's just it's just it comes I I I I wanna ask you a couple of final questions. empathy, you you said that empathy and commercial ca success can work hand in hand. And I think that there's something really interesting in that. Tech can you tell us a little bit about how you see the two working together? Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: My customers will call me or text me when they just need someone to talk to. At the C level, the C-suite can be very lonely Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: or a VP. And they need someone that they can trust, that they can tell their problems to, who knows that they're not necessarily asking for you to fix their problems. But just to listen. That's not the con now I might be able to help them with their problems. That's not the conversation to do it. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: No. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: To listen, empathize, and validate. And yes, I've seen that before. You're not alone. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Hmm. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: I've seen multiple companies, people and companies go through that same thing. That's all it takes. And and when I was in the the corporate world before, I would be told I care too much. I'm not getting paid to be somebody's therapist. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Well Now I can be. And I Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: don't know them for that time. It's not again, it's not about greed. It's about the relationship. If they trust me enough to call me and have that conversation, I am thrilled. It means they trust me. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. Yeah. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: So I think, as you said, you know, what does it take to be successful? Bee that person someone can trust and someone can rely on. When they're in pain, be one of the few people that they can reach out to. You're not a family member, you don't know their friends, you're not in their workspace, but they know they can text you or call you or just somehow reach out. To me, I'm sorry they're in pain, number one. Two, I'm thrilled they've come to me. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, I I agree. I I think there's you know, it it's under it underestimated how much loneliness, you know, personal stuff that's going on outside of work and it's important and and I always say to you know, I've always said to my team, you know, you don't know what's going on in like inside that person. So if they're like moody or having a bad day or having approved something for some reason, let's just work out what's actually going on because it's generally nothing to do with the situation at hand. It's always something else that's on their mind. Like on you know, like you've probably got stuff in your mind right now. You're thinking about your Friday off. I've got stuff like, you know, and so there's always something, right? We've always got something on going on. And so it's just being able to have a bit more grace with one another also, if you ask me. I think that's really, really important. What's the okay, final two questions, final, final two. What's so Avalus Group, you've been going since November of last year, you're very young. What's your what's your ambition between now and the end of the year? I love it. It's such the Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: And yeah. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: part the big part, isn't it? And I think that comes back to self- know your value, know your worth as well. I think it's a Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Yeah. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: big thing to pay yourself when you're an entrepreneur in startup mode. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Yeah, but I would say maintaining our values, continuing nurturing our team, showing up for them each day as a team and individually. whether it's Teams or Slack, checking in with people. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: How are you doing? so I think continuing to listen and to pay attention, hopefully gaining a handful, I mean two or three more clients, but really just getting to a point where we're in a steady state, if that exists. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: I love it. I love it. It's a it's a steady, it's a continuous cycle of, you know, constantly it's nonlinear. It's a s how do you stay steady in non in a nonlinear way is what I I how I see that. And then last Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: That's it. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: but not least, what does success look like for Nancy? Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: That's that's exactly it is being able to continue doing exactly what I'm doing with the addition of of getting paid. I could not be any happier. That's really the only missing piece. I'm happy in all areas of my life. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: And if I can continue that for myself and for the team and our customers and our partners. Everyone who is part of Ovalis Group is everyone who who touches us. And that's Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, the egg, yeah. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: why it's an egg. And you're now part of that with this interaction. And it's keeping the egg safe. I'm responsible for the shell. And we're Bee Murray, Bee Formless: I love it. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: all part of the egg. And none of us is more important than the other. And we each have a critical role. And it doesn't Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: matter what our title is, we each have a responsibility to keep the egg healthy. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, so true. You don't want to crack that egg. You don't want to drop the egg. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: No, and I don't want to get rotten or spoiled or all all the things that can happen to eggs. if I can continue to do this, I will just be the happiest happiest person on the planet. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Incredible. Nancy, it's so good chatting with you. How do we find out more about a violus group? How do we find out more about you? Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Great question. you can go to Ovalis GroupLLC dot com or look for me on LinkedIn. I'm happy Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yep. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: to connect. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Amazing. Thank you so much, Nancy. It's been a great I've I've loved every bit and I I keep coming back to focusing on the opposite of the seven deadly sins and then knowing your values, know your worth. You know, there is there is space in this world and in business for empathy and commercial success and protect that egg. Protect your egg is is super important. Thank you so much. Have a wonderful evening and enjoy your Friday off, Nancy. Nancy Jacobs | Ovalis Group: Thank you. Pleasure. Thank you. Bye. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Right, take care. See you. Thank you.