Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Hello and welcome to the Bee Formless Flow Driven CEO podcast, where we are reshaping life, leadership and business from the inside out. And Marley Bob's also saying a big kind hello if you can't already hear him. He's barking. I'm welcoming to the show, Ofir Kuberman Kuberman Welcome to the show, Ofir Ofir kuberman: Thanks for having me. How are you? Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, good. How are you? I know you've had a little bit of surgery. Well, not a little bit, a big bit of surgery, a full knee reconstruction. How's the hobbling Ofir kuberman: Yeah. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: along going? Ofir kuberman: Yeah, it's taking time. ACL. I thought it's gonna be much more easy after the surgery. Apparently it's more worse after the surgery, the recovery than it was start. I didn't feel in the start the pain. But it's going there. We just day by day. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, day by day it's all you can do. Plus you've also got a little first little six month or she's he or is it he a boy or a girl? A boy. Yeah, it's gonna be six yeah, it's hard Ofir kuberman: Boy. Yeah. Yeah. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: to be like hobbling around with a little one and then, you know, your wife it's like it's a lot, right? Ofir kuberman: Yeah. In one hand like you can think that it is a lot because she needs to handle much more because I cannot hold him or do some stuff. But in the other side it's good because like beside to work outside I need to work from home so I have more time to be with him or see his growth. Because people say Bee Murray, Bee Formless: it's gorgeous. Ofir kuberman: that it's going so fast and we can see that it's going so fast. But it's good to have the time to see him the first time Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Ofir kuberman: he did anything and he start now to eat solid. So it's it is fun. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Yeah, I can s look at that smile on your face. You appreciate the little moments. You get to spend some tele quality time with your little one. Gorgeous, gorgeous. You're in you're based in Mornington Peninsula, so you're not far away from me either, which is you know b and you've lived here what you said for eight years now. You are really Ofir kuberman: Agen is in Australia in general. Yeah. We used to live in Doncaster, then in Oakley, and then we moved here when we bought our first house. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Incredible, incredible. And I'm also gonna say a big hell hi and hello to all the listeners out there. Hello, how is everybody today? Hopefully you're all having an amazing week. Please do comment, share, like, and you know, let us know what you're loving when it comes to the themes and the various conversations that we're having with leaders, entrepreneurs, founders, investors. The more we know what you're loving, the more we can continue these varied conversations. Ofir let's get into it because you are a serial entrepreneur. You've you've this is your is this your second stint as an entrepreneur? You've sold one company? Ofir kuberman: Yeah, it's sold one, but it's more than more than second. Trying always, so Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Got it? say I've interviewed quite a few people from entrepreneurs from Israel and there's something about this Israeli innovation hub. Everyone's you've got this amazing resilience about you and there's just this continued you know fail fast keep going keep keep trying out new you know new businesses I love it I absolutely love that energy so Ofir Kuberman you are the co founder of Senda Tradie helping trading businesses simplify their operations through intelligent technology that reduces administration and gives owners more time to focus on their work, their growth, and I think most importantly their families. I think that, like you've just kind of demonstrated that as you were talking about your little boy. An important inflection point emerged when Ofir you recognized that too many business owners were spending more time managing their pay. Then leading their business. And that insight reshapes your work towards building technology that removes complexity, allowing tradies to reclaim claim their time and concentrate on what matters most. And at the heart and soul of your work is a belief that technology should give people more than efficiency. It should give them the freedom to spend more time doing meaningful work and living meaningful lives. It feels like you're also saying that you know, if you think about a trade, the thing I love about a trade is that human connection. that human interaction and that they care and that they're do you know what I mean? And so if they're stuck in all this administration there's nothing worse than when you don't get that connection. I'm gonna hand it over to you. Ofir kuberman: i it's something that missing today, the connection, you know, as much as the technology is involved today. I think that today with AI is about sixty, seventy percent of what we're seeing online is made by AI or emails that get in AI. So we as a software developer it's very easy to realise what's coming from AI because there is a common thing that AI doing. But I think that for real connections, specific when you asking to someone to come in and do something for your home that you want it to be perfect as you can. And focus on that. I think that it's a great opportunity for trade is to really focus on what matters and what the love. So think about that that decide always to focus on the job. They're thinking about how they can what's the next invoice, what do they need to do? Because it's better for them also to answer kind of quick. As if they will not answer it quick, someone could be going somewhere else. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: There's something really interesting when you talk around this meaningful work and living meaningful life. And there's nothing worse than when you have a tradee who is bogged down in their administration. I want a trade to come that comes to my house that's fully present, connecting with me, really looking like if I've got some issue with my place, for example, I don't want them just coming in like completely just almost like ignoring what I'm wanting to get fixed. I want to know that I've got this person eyeing looking at looking me in the eye and actually going in and having a look at exactly what's what the problem is or what I'm wanting to build. or or whatever, if that makes sense. And so for me, it it is a really interesting point, isn't it? Because human connection is everything and allowing the traders to get back to what they should do. Do you agree? Ofir kuberman: Yeah, this is what I'm believing. I'm believing that if you bring in trade and you want him to focus on what's matter, that he will not spend two hours or it will be long time after he said that it should be finished. Just think about it that as a business owner, even if you are tradie, you need to focus in one hand to do the job, but in the other hand you need to think how you're growing the business. So in trade specific when someone asking for quote, it's very important for you that the quote will go fast. Otherwise they will go to someone else. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Hmm. Ofir kuberman: So in this point we're trying to make the trade to really focus on on the job itself. And this is what they're doing, this is what they love to do. But when you becoming to be a business owner, you suddenly need to do twenty percent of that and like eighty percent is like all the arrangement, how I grow my company, how I sending invoices, sending quotes, making sure that there is money. So this is what we hear. We're trying to help them to focus the real job and help them with the admin. And today, for us, connection is something that's very important. We're coming to the AI, the changing the world. Sixty, seventy percent of what we see currently Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, you're back. Ofir kuberman: in the internet, it's generated by AI. And in the future we maybe will not understand what is what is AI, what is not AI, how much it's realistic becoming. And we're coming to that very fast. So I think for human connection it's something that very important that we'll keep. Specific when we you know, investing money in our house on any tradey job that they're doing and we won they will just do it. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Totally. Yeah, totally. So tell us how did you come into Center Tradey then? Like have you all have you been a trade yourself? Like what was it that how did you co found the business? What what did you see and need? Like what what was it that made you create this business? Ofir kuberman: This is a funny story. When I came to Australia first time, I came to one year break. I decided I had enough. In Israel there is much much less left bal life balance. You're really working hard. We're always Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Ofir kuberman: working, evening, nights. And I decided that I have a lot of anxiety. I want to take one year break. I came to Australia and I met a friend that is a tradeier, locksmith. And I used to, you know, I didn't have what to do here. So I used to travel with him, go with him to job, just spend time, see how the life in Australia And I always ask him why you're not using any software to manage your job. And he always said that he tried so many software and nothing suits for his business. I'm like, okay. You've been a very good friend, so I did for him something that's called MVP, minimum value product. I built something Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. Ofir kuberman: that looking very bad, but doing the purpose of to save his time with the salary for employee, with the job. And I remember that I met my wife, which is currently my wife, and My first visa was finish one here and she asked me if I can stay another one here that to see how is our relationship going. So we've been four months in Europe and I always was wondering what I'm gonna do in Australia because for me as a person that coming from country that is very high tech, to come to Australia yeah, it's feeling like Australia was behind like five to ten years. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, a hundred percent. Ofir kuberman: This this is the feeling that I had. There is not too many startups here. There is no any connection. I'm coming from nothing. So I always thought what I'm gonna do here. And the thing that in one day when we're traveling in Greece, I had like a lot of tabs open in my browser. So I starting to close. And I remember that I saw the CRM that I built for him. And I'm like, interesting. Like it was eight months after or something like that. How how is business growing? And I saw a hundred of percent that the business is going. And I called him, I remember this was a night here, and I called him and I'm like look, I I must do have a question. How did you grow so much? And he technically told me that his focus was to do the job while the all the admin is resolving now. It's very easy for him, so he's not focusing on that. Then in the moment I say, Okay, I know what I'm gonna do here. This is how we're starting. And from then it was little little bit before COVID. But when's COVID coming, I put it also on the side because everyone wants to go online. So as a software Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Ofir kuberman: developer We're starting to build websites, we're starting to do integration for company because everyone wants to come online. So in COVID, we've been full on to build some software or some hubs to other companies because everyone wants to be there. And I think that when I saw Center Trading next time, I'm like, okay, I built it for one person, but now there is fifteen, twenty people that reached it. It was completely free. Completely free. And suddenly I saw that there is people and didn't understand how people come. So his employee that used to s use Sendrady or people that saw us on the signature of the invoice that it's powered by starting to register and then I'm like, Okay, this is what I want to do and I want to focus just on Bee Murray, Bee Formless: How incredible. So is he your co founder? The guy that you'd know. Ofir kuberman: No. No. It's just a friend that because I help him. I've been I even try to do it by myself. Like I've been going with him and try to understand how trade is working, what are you doing through the day. He's not co-founder. I've been, but I used a lot of his like information about what's the needs that need to be. And Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Ofir kuberman: I think that this is what's important when you're building business is I'm technology person. I'm not a tradey that's working in the field itself. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: No. Ofir kuberman: I can solve problems, but I need to understand what's the pain point for people. So what I used to do, I used to go after to different kind different tradies and meet different tradies and try to understand what's the problem, what they're using now, what's working, what's not working. Because when we built Center Trade, it was a lot of software that was existing, was existing. But still, in the end of the day, most of the tradies is people that didn't finish full school, okay? And they have lack of technology. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Ofir kuberman: You need to build something that first will give them a good support because I think that in this industry of the software for traders there is a very big lack of support here of companies. There is like a third party that doing job for them but they're always charging more and more and they have a limitation of what they can do for them. And so this is where we realize that there is a way for us and a niche because we start to send a trade just for a trade is itself. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Incredible, incredible. So the how long's how long so how long have you officially have the business for now? Ofir kuberman: I think that a little bit before COVID until now, I think that it's about like four or five years, something like that. Yeah. We have Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Wow. And is it continuing to grow? Like, I mean, obviously, yeah, because tradies aren't going anywhere. I mean, this is what's so interesting, right? When you think about the change that AI is bringing into play and the different roles and l lots of change. I was just speaking to a recruiter actually. the tra th we need tradies and we need tradies to be hands on. We need our tradies to be connecting with us from a human perspective. If they get caught in all this administration, well then where are the where where do the tradies go sort of thing. So it's it's like almost it like I just was writing down tech trade before in terms of it it's the perfect storm in a way, isn't it? Ofir kuberman: Yeah, think about it. Let's let's even work before the even the the AI. Let's go to COVID. Trade's was essential. If you need tradies, everyone was stuck at home, but trade is was allowed to go and do their job. So even in that I realized how much it's important for tradies itself. So it's not just essential, even with AI it's even more essential. It was like Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Well that's not exactly. Ofir kuberman: All this thing that they're doing for the AI like the computers, the electrician, the people they're doing with the all the water that making the computer to be cold and and not get overheated, so you need more treaties, even with the AI. So the AI is even giving power for the tradies now. So it's not gonna take their job, it's gonna elevate their job. It's gonna make them what they did in X time, it's gonna make five X. It's also, I think, that the AI is changing all the terminology of SaaS platform. But SaaS platform was a software as a service before. You need to give to people software and they're using it. Okay. Today it's different. Meaning it's like if it was software as a service, now it's service as a software. You're not just giving the software. You're also giving agent, you're giving AI that will do the jobs. So it's like you don't need someone Bee Murray, Bee Formless: That's really interesting, isn't it? Ofir kuberman: yeah, you don't need someone literally in the admin, you need like someone in the admin that just will approve some stuff, but you're gonna cut his time. So with AI, if the person used to do X thing in a day, now you can give him five time in X to do it because it's much more faster, or you're taking some of his responsibility to focus on what matters because AI can do generic thing that the business is doing anyway. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. Mm. Interesting. You you you tap tip tapped into a point before around that you thought Australia was five years five to ten years behind and you you're not seeing a lot of start ups and a lot of innovation and then you saw a real opportunity. It's interesting where we're at now in Australia full stop in terms of just the changes that we've been we've had more recently and the uproar from innovation, entrepreneurialism, tax, budgets, etcetera. Are you are you seeing less or are you say I mean obviously trade is trade's aren't going anywhere, but what's your view on you know entrepreneurialism and and innovation here and startups here in Australia? Ofir kuberman: I think that from here to here it's getting better. I still think that Australia behind the world. Okay. I remember the first time how I realized that is that when I go to the city and I park my car and I need to pay. So was the p point that I'm putting coins and I'm like, this is interesting. I never had that. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Ofir kuberman: It's like in Israel you just had a hap and in the app you're doing it. Even if you're going to underground parking, it's automatically opened because it's realized that you have the app and it's taking the car. And it's automatically starting to chart you. And then when you come in here and you need to put the coin in each place and you need to figure out what's the coin, now there is some apps they're doing it on specific Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. Ofir kuberman: area and location, not all of them. Okay? So this is the first point that I realized that. The second point that I realized is that I used to very fast internet, and when I used here, the internet was not quite fast and it was very annoying me because everything taking much more time. But I think that with the more here and I'm very involved of what's going in the startup in Melbourne particular. I know that in Sydney it's could be even a little bit better. I think that Australia getting to the right direction. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: that's good. That's good. In terms of so what involvement do you have in the start up community here? Ofir kuberman: So first I'm going to a lot of different events of regards to startups. And we also like to support different startups because Center Trading it's one of one company from Tree that we have. We have like a software development company that's now more focusing on the AI. And with the AI ev evaluation, we also open a new company that's called Rafio. And technically Rafio giving option to businesses to create AI video for 30 or 60 seconds. that they are consistency with the character or with the brand, that it's something that we saw gap in the market because all the video correctly that you can do with AI it's like five to fifteen seconds. But if you want something longer, then Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. Ofir kuberman: you need it's very hard to make the flow going with your brand and with everything. So I think this is the gap that we saw that we can use all these tools, but you can make it to be something else. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Gosh, your mind doesn't stop, does it? Like this is constant innovation, like ideas. Do you like you talk around meaningful life and you know, the the ability to focus on your work, your growth and also families? And we talked about that from a tradey perspective, but I also think it's from a, you know, an entrepreneur or founder perspective and doing meaningful work and living meaningful a li meaningful life. When you're juggling multiple businesses or startups And you talked around in Israel and I've seen it also like like quite often will be like, B, do you want to can you do a meet like do you wanna do a meeting on Sunday or a Saturday? I'm like, What? Like and I and I and I I jumped on a call, like I said to you on Sunday night with with a guy that I co collaborate with from Israel and it makes me laugh because it's like what day do you actually have off? So how do you 'cause it's quite a shift from, like you say, working every day generally versus coming here. Do you have changed your mindset so that you can have more family time, etc. Like this this balance is the wrong is is absolutely the wrong word. I don't like the word balance. How do you how do you juggle it all? Ofir kuberman: I think it is a business owner you working generally more than any other person if you're Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Ofir kuberman: running a business. But I think that what's good for mine is that first I can work from anywhere. Okay, I can take my computer and work even from vacation. So yes, it's not fully vacation, but it's still good vacation. But I have time and I know to give the balance to say, Okay, from this time to this time, we're going now to travel or we're going to do something and when we're coming back to rest in the hotel as example So my wife can go to rest and I will go to work. Or if we in vacations I'll decide and decide to go to sleep in X time, I'll sleep two hours after, I'll wake up two hours before. I think that you you should have this balance in the end because you know, we just running after life and working and working and working and in the end there is a family. I want to spend time with the family and I can feel it more even because I came here by myself. Like There is no other family beside my wife and their family. There is the friends here that they like family. But still when you're far away, it's you you can feel you can feel that it's missing. So I think that as much as you're feeling it more is a missing, you want it to be here more. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Hmm. Ofir kuberman: And and look, my wife is also working when she working, so because now we've the child, but I use every time that she coming from home to say, Okay, this is the time that I know that we have Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. Ofir kuberman: the time together, so you're spending this time together. that it's very important because you know the life is going and in the past think about it. In the past it was fine that one parent working and the other less. And today as much as the time is coming, it's much more hard. You can see that they Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, yeah. Ofir kuberman: have two parents working. You see that the kids used to grow at home. Now they're going to a lot of basketball, soccer, after school, all this kind of thing. So I think that it's very important that the family be united and I think that I choose a work that first I love, so I'm not considering as a work. Second, it's also at the start is maybe taking you time, but if you're building a good team, so and we support it each other, because in our company it's a different way of how we're working. There is no nine to five. It's a different way of story. So there is a task. And everyone know what they need to do and everyone have the deadline. So I don't care if one of the employees will go in the morning to the gym and then he decides that you're working a little bit after. If he know the task and he he likes to wake up and go to the gym and start in ten o'clock, I'm fine with that while the task is done and when it should be done. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. I s I look at that as I f I look at that as subjective time because like this nine till five, I'm not sure if you've heard this analogy before, but nine to five is clock time, right? Nine o'clock, I get to work or whatever time and you know, I do this in this hour and I do this in that hour. And then at five o'clock I clock off or whatever, like this eight till five. And I do truly think this is evolving versus what you're talking about. And it's it's, you know, science backed, neuroscience backed is like this or flow science backed, is this subjective time. So, like exactly what you're talking about, you're focusing on an output, you're focusing on a task that needs to be achieved. They know the deadline. And so however they use subjectively blocks of time to get the to get the tasks done, but it doesn't mean they're sitting at their desk from nine till five if that makes sense. So I think we're gonna I feel like we're gonna see a lot more of that subjective time versus clock watching. Why aren't they at the desk? Why aren't they haven't they started their day? And that's where we get more meaningful lives and just more meaning in what we're doing for work, right? Like that's where the energy and the wonder. Ofir kuberman: You you wonder people will enjoy about what you're doing. I think that Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Ofir kuberman: in the past you used to see someone that working in the same work for five, ten, twenty years. Today most of the people, if I'm not wrong, I thought that a few years that just statistic was that the average is two years to stay at work. Specific with this generation, you know? That they want to do something else. So today you can be influencer, you can do a lot of stuff. So you can juggling between and do a lot of things that you are running by yourself or you managing by yourself. But We also could see that COVID changed a lot. People used to go to the office in the city and suddenly people work from more more from home. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Well Ofir kuberman: So now it's a little bit coming back that company more pushing to come to the office because I think that there is advantage to working the office, but I don't think Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Agree. Ofir kuberman: that it should be all the week. So in our company as example, we come into the office at least two times a week that we can like be all the team together to share what we're doing or working together and get brainstorming together. While in the other time it's fine if they will work from home. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm, I like that. I like that a lot. Tell me a little bit about the Israeli culture in terms of fail fast and if you fail you you you go again. Like there's this whole this resilience piece. Business, start-up and scaling a business is not is not easy. you have your highs and lows, and I'm sure you've had highs and lows along the way. You're smiling at me. What keeps how how do you how do you bounce back from fail failing and how do you bounce like what's your what's your the way from a resilience perspective? And especially with your team as well, because quite often the team can get deflated when something doesn't go right. Do you know what I mean? Ofir kuberman: Yeah. So I think that it's first becoming from culture. I think that the culture is very different. We Israeli we are very direct. We Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Ofir kuberman: we're saying what we're thinking. For good or for bad, in my position it's like depend how the other person taking it. We're not trying to be rude, but we're saying what we're thinking. And I think that the also part of our culture is always too helping to each each other. We are a very small country that I think that Part of the big resilience it's becoming that you don't have choice, you must go to the army. Boys, girl mostly going to the army, because it is what it is and you need to do it. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. Ofir kuberman: And suddenly you're part of the army, you're not getting money, you don't have choice, and you're becoming much more resilient. I think that in Australia as an example, if I'm not wrong, nurses or vets, like in this kind of industry, I think that one of the highest suicide rate. Okay? Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. Ofir kuberman: So I think that's something that to make you to be stronger is mentality stronger, to deal with stuff that you never deal, make you first to be mentality stronger. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. Ofir kuberman: And the other thing is to try to fail fast because you don't want to spend two, three years from your life on something that maybe will not success. So you're trying at first, and if it's not going, you say, Okay, I learned from that. And I think that we'd like to help to people. So in Israel you can go to people that already achieved something and learn from them. You can follow. There is a lot of podcasts. In Israel, there is a lot of events. The people will come and people that I think that Israel is one of the top three countries that's selling startups. And I think that as a foregan country, they are the second unicorn after Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, big Ofir kuberman: India in the US. So we always trying to go fast and see it's working, it's not working. If it's not working, we're cutting it. And for me, when I came here, the culture is different. I I I know where's the culture is so different because my wife she's Australian. So I can see the culture between us. And so with my team as example, the first meeting that I'm doing with them, I'm explaining where I come from. Okay? And I explain that sometimes to put their problems or what they did wrong is not to fire them or not to be upset on them. It's that they will learn from this point. So Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. Ofir kuberman: I'm always saying, You have my backup, I will be front of the clients. we will try to reduce the mistake that we're doing, as example, like in development you have the local stage, then development stage, then Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Well Ofir kuberman: you have the lab. So we're trying to reduce it. You have my backup, but we need to learn from each mistake that we're doing because this is the way to grow. And I think that it's great because what I can I see with the employee that it's also because we're building this culture together, because Australia is a multicultural country. It's like people come from all over the world. So I have people that are strong, people that coming as students from all over the world and we're trying to build something together that this is what we believe in. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. You're building the magic together. How being your team? Ofir kuberman: We are at this point five people here. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Okay, incredible. And is your t is your business global or is it like is it local or like is it both? Ofir kuberman: So Sandit Rady at this point is in Australia and we just released five days ago in the US. And Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Woo! Ofir kuberman: yeah, so we are very excited. We're starting to see a lot of people that register from the US because apparently a lot of people talking us in a different WhatsApp group and we didn't understand why it's happened. But then we worked very hard to the first of August to release it because we saw that people are interesting. So if they're interesting, why not? But Kubernetes in Rafio, you you can use us from any other parts of the world. We have clients from different parts of the global that we know from meetings or other people connection. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Incredible. Can I ask a question? You you mentioned something before around you know, failing fast in terms of knowing when to pivot or when to learn from what is not working and then move forward. Do you put a time frame around that? Like if I'm if I'm an entrepreneur or if I've got a startup that's happening and it's not it's not you know, it's not where I want it to be, for example. Like I was speaking to somebody yesterday and they were like at the three year mark, it's generally And and you hear this, that you hit three years, you're like, where is this going? Is this gonna actually go take off or isn't it? Like, what's your view on that? Like, do you or do you rip the band-aid off sooner and do a full pivot? Like, how do you how do you determine when it's time to go, right, this has failed, we need to reimagine or recreate or reshape it and take it forward and test and implement out a new way, using my methodology. Ofir kuberman: I think I think that it's very dependent on the business itself. I saw a lot of startups that they have like one feature in their business that was very successful compared to all the startup and they did pivot and just build this feature. And this is how they grow in success. I think that in my perspective is first, you know, there is a lot of people that go the same way. To be entrepreneur is like very hard journey. People maybe will look at your success but will not look about the fail, the hard time, the you know, like you're trying to go to people and someday nobody wants you, nobody cares about you. So in the end, yes, you put in timeline and you need to put timeline and to put timeline is to put a goal. You know, if you're not putting goal, you don't have one Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Ofir kuberman: where to achieve. So you put in goal and you say for example, okay, now in the next three months I'm trying to get at least five, ten new customers. So how I'm doing it? Then I'm trying to go in my goal and say, okay, I'm trying to see what's working for my business and what's not working for my business. But I think that what's good is that always I will try to get opinion from other people. I will try to get opinion from my clients, I will try to get people from other businesses they did something. I will try to get from different entrepreneurs into Australia because Australian culture is not the American culture and not the Israeli culture. So what could be working here, working different way in different countries. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, nuances, yeah. Ofir kuberman: Yeah, and you always trying to reshape. And look, there is some businesses because this is what I say. I had a lot of businesses that I saw after years that we're spending money, we we thought that there is a niche or there is a need for that, but in the end client not paying or not interesting about it. So it's very hard because it's like you're feeling that it's a baby that you work on it so hard and so long and suddenly you say, Okay, so what I'm gonna do next? So Bee Murray, Bee Formless: I know. Ofir kuberman: I think to drop it is very hard mindset. But once you're doing it, sometimes you're even feeling relief 'cause you don't want to spend the next five years Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, probably. Ofir kuberman: to work on something that's not working. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Totally. Okay, a couple of final questions for you. We're in a revolution as we speak. However, AI's been around forever, like it's been around since what the nineteen fifties. What do you what do you see as next? Like do you think that we're is is it calming down? Is it going to still be c continue to be as fast as everything is right now? Like what are you what are you observing from a tech perspective right now? Ofir kuberman: I don't think I think that it's gonna get to the limit in the end. And the limit is like every two years, because in the end we need to use chips and we need to use something that they growing themselves every two years, they doubling themselves. And I think that there is if we're talking about the software by himself, we have in my opinion there is a four stage. The first stage is the chat, that most of the people this is what they're using at. Okay. The second stage is that we have a copilot. what's called what's the name in cloud that it's kind of controlling your computer and doing action for you. The third step it's agent, is what mostly a lot of people now using. They building agents to do some task that other people doing. And it's giving the ability to small company to go against big companies because they don't even they don't need the same budget anymore. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Right. Ofir kuberman: And this is why If in the past you look about company and say, you five thousand, you very big. But today I know companies that like with five, ten people also creating million dollars for a business, because they don't need so many people because they can do a lot of stuff for that. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, there it is. Mm. Mm. Ofir kuberman: I think that the next stage that we are not there, we're gonna be there, it's the autonomy. And technically AI will running full business. AI will run another agent in AI and everyone will talk between themselves. But this is in software development. In the future you can see now that there is cars that driving by themselves and there is maybe in the future will be robots that will do our washing machine or will do other stuff. I think that a lot of people afraid from that, and in my opinion, is just shifting how the war is working. I don't think that there is what to be afraid from that, because let's look fifty, sixty years ago, most of the population, what they did agriculture. And with the time, what's happened? People less doing agriculture. Why? Because there is more machines. But with the machine, Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Totally so Ofir kuberman: now you need people that will build the machine, you need people that innovate the machine. So it's open different industries. So I think that the same with AI. AI is not here to take some industry. Yes, some industry will be not existing, Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, yeah. Ofir kuberman: it will be shifting, but some industries, the AI, it's a power, it's just give you a power. So I think that to do prompting, it will be a skill that Everyone in the future will need to have. Someone Bee Murray, Bee Formless: I know, I know. Ofir kuberman: else didn't know the prompt will replace you in the same job. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: So then what's your view on like there there is a lot of shiny AI businesses out there at the moment and I call them shiny because it's almost like fast money, right? Like there's I mean, and I'm not dissing this in any way, shape, or form. There's a lot of training, AI training businesses out there. There's a lot of businesses starting at the moment that are starting up because there's an immediate need right now. And I come right back to what are you building long term? Like in terms of what like foundational and what are you building long term? Like like you think about a software platform, right? It doesn't you don't just build like a one hit wonder and then it d it like it it's a it's a long term platform if you like. Ofir kuberman: Yeah. I I don't think that first everyone talking that AI can build the same software that other companies doing. I think that it's gonna be long time until it will be there. I Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. Ofir kuberman: think that AI is good, but I don't think that it's yet excellent. I Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm-hmm. Ofir kuberman: think that also it's a very big hip. So everyone trying to get market share from that. Everyone Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Ofir kuberman: try to offer. You know a lot of people that I'm talking with them, the AI, they we're hearing AI, AI, AI. But once we're starting to to to dive into it, there is so much so they're getting confused. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: That's exactly right. The overwhelm. Ofir kuberman: They don't know where where to start. There is a lot of companies they're talking about AI or trying to train AI. And a lot of people don't know where to start. They're getting it and then confusing. I think that in our they did like a very long time ago, something that's showing that if you will go for example to to store of chocolate, one with three options and one with fifty options, it's more easy will be to choose from the three option than in the fifty option you're getting too overwhelmed and you're not taking anything. Okay? Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Ofir kuberman: So I think that most of the people that want to start with AI, they they need to think about okay, what is my one problem that I have every day that AI can solve that. And then to Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, absolutely. Ofir kuberman: understand what is the tools that can do this. And not try to dive into it and think overthinking. 'Cause a lot of people that are talking, I built this with Claude and now I want to build legend and I don't know what to do and how to do it. I'm like, you jump too far. You need to start with Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, totally. Ofir kuberman: the start. What is the main problem? Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, I agree. And I just think it all like to to kinda end our conversation, with the two little Molly Bob interrupts along the way, the chief energy officer, that's his role in the business, is that coming right back to human, like the it like thinking about what r role you play as a human in business as we go forward. And then also allowing yourself to explore and be curious about what's possible. There's so much changing in in roles and what we can do and what we can create. So like with with a bit of space, that gives us ability to to think differently and be more innovative and be more creative and apply that critical thinking. Thank you so much. Well, enjoy the rest of your day and and keep resting that knee of yours. Don't forget to do the physio. And like, yeah, enjoy that time with your little boy because you never get it back. So enjoy it. Hello Ofir how are you? I'm giggling because we're back again. And I'm gonna drop this into the edit and here we are. This is the fourth edit of what is becoming the comedy show of Bee and Ofir or the Comedy Show of Bee. From a flow-driven CEO conversation. We're gonna film about three or four more minutes just to actually put this all together so we can publish it. And the audience and the listeners are gonna love it because what this highlights for me is that we are truly human and it's all around authenticity and where we for some reason something happened to the record where it cut off was you were talking about that everyone is, you know, into Claude, wanting to next to build agents. And you said start with the problem. So I'm gonna hand it over to you to complete that little tangent we were going on. And I'm gonna ask you then f two final questions. Ofir kuberman: So yes, what we talked before is that a of people like hearing the AI buzzboard and they want to jump from just prompting because this is what I know to do, to build agents, and they not understand that there is a process from you to get from step A to step let's say D or Z and everyone thinking, I want to be there. So we're seeing a lot of problems that people don't understand that there is a flow and process and there is too many thing that they don't know where to start from. So I think that the first thing that I'm asking him is what is the problem? Like let's try to see first what is your problem? What we're gonna solve here. Then to understand based on that, we can start to build a flow that will make you from person that just writing a regular prompt or how you using cloud co-work to do some actions for you. And once you're starting to see it working, then you can start to think about agent and how much it's gonna cost you and which environment it's gonna be. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: So true, isn't it? Like I just, yeah, it just comes right back to the human and using your discernment, your judgment. You know, we are we are the ones that can solve the problem. And yes, we can use AI to help us, but I, you know, we've got to stop trying to get it to do everything and think that we're all what do you call it, vibe creators as well. I think that's kind of part of it too. I read this fascinating article actually this week about that and getting back to what we need to get back to, which is what you're talking about here. Okay, so Two final questions. I the many Israeli people that I've spoken to that are like from the most innovative hub in the world, they've got they've got this resilience. We've talked about that throughout the pod. And I've noticed you also love a good quote. So what would be a quote that you would like to share with the listeners for to wrap the show up? Ofir kuberman: I like that start and fall fast because as much as you're falling first you learn fast. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. Ofir kuberman: And don't weigh that something will be perfect. So try fall, try, fall. This is the way that you're learning. And with the time, you're gonna meet the right people that you're gonna learn from that. And I think that this is the way not to spend years or something that you think that maybe will work or it's not perfect yet. And specific with the AI that everything is like so fast, you need to do it even now faster. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, I love that. Fall first. I love that. It's so true. Like just fall, jump up. Like it's all it's just kind of and then bounce forward, right? And then how do we find out more about you, Ofir? How do we find out more about Cinder Trade? How do we find out more about you? Ofir kuberman: So people can go to sendertradie.com. We we are very active in our Instagram itself because this is what's working for us, or Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. Ofir kuberman: in LinkedIn itself. People can search my name in LinkedIn, can find me, and I'm happy to have a chat or talk with people. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Thank you. And you know what's so funny? You said Bee, I'm not wearing the same outfit I was on the day we actually recorded. But you know what I love? I love that you've got branding. Like, look at that brand. Send a tradey. A good way to end it. Like the show. Thank you so much, Ofir And just to all the listeners out there. Guess what? Nothing is perfect. It's exactly like Ofir said. Fall first. I've fallen three or four times with this record. Ofir kuberman: Right. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: And you know what I love though? That Ofir, when I c reached out to him the other day, he was like, Yep, I'll just jump on with you. And that's what it's all about. It's around how do we all band together to solve the problem, to get to the next solution. Doesn't matter if you're full, like you say, you always bounce you you always pick yourself up and bounce forward. So Ofir, thank you so much. I'm looking forward Ofir kuberman: For having me. Bee Murray, Bee Formless: to getting this out live and have A great rest of the day. Thank you. Take care. Ofir kuberman: Thank you, you too.