Daryl Ratajczak: Hey everybody and welcome back to the Wildlife for You podcast. I am Darrell, your go-to wildlife biologist. And today we're going to be diving into a topic that's as intriguing as much as it is muddy. We're going to be talking about feral pigs or piggies or hogs or porkers. So speaking of co-hosts, why don't I let my co-hosts introduce herself?

Stephanne: Okay, yeah. Hi again, folks. I'm Stephanie, the one who tries to keep Daryl from getting too pigheaded about things. ⁓ Epic fail on my part sometimes, but we will roll with that. But seriously, though, he has been on really good behavior lately. Honestly, I think he's afraid of our know-it-all friend, Hazel. Hashtag Hazel. You've all heard of her lately. She has been ripping into him about AI. something else that he's not an expert in like he is in wildlife.

Daryl Ratajczak: You got that right, Steph. And the thing is, you know women scare me, but she really scares me sometimes. But I will say, it is nice always having a backup like you that I can call in to defend me.

Stephanne: ⁓ Even if you kind of hinted there that maybe I was the piggy friend I feel like Miss Piggy right now, but I I I Love and adore you. I will always be your backup or your Calvary or whatever you need

Daryl Ratajczak: And you know such thing? which I know and appreciate very much, I would rather be, I'd rather you be my, my, my cavalry, not calvary. But, just so you know, I try to exercise my Batman-like summoning powers over you and I try to use it sparingly because I vividly remember that time in Yellowstone when I literally had to pull you back from climbing out of the window of the passenger side of the van. Because if I remember correctly, you were gonna whip some doofus's butt for being way too close to a wild bison. And honestly, I don't know which is scarier, the 2,000 pound Bison that was in the road there or you.

Stephanne: ⁓ yeah. Oh no, yeah, would go with me. I mean, I was mad as hell.

Daryl Ratajczak: ⁓ my gosh, I know that. Truthfully, Steph, half of me wanted to see what you would have done to that doofi. Anyway, but seriously, folks, today we're gonna be discussing a few things about pigs because one of our listeners, Rob, one of our four listeners, Rob, said something the other day in front of our buddies, Old Man Johnson and Hashtag Hazel. So let's talk about why pigs can turn faster. They can turn feral or wild faster than a teenager could literally find their phone. So now remember, this is all about how pigs can survive in the wild. So ⁓ cow, I am getting so far ahead of myself. Why don't we play the conversation first between Ol' Man Johnson and hashtag, ⁓ hashtag Hazel so the folks know what we're talking about.

Stephanne: I think that would be a fantastic idea, sir.

Daryl Ratajczak: ⁓ okay, let's try this. I gotta find my buttons over here.

Stephanne: No worries. You the other day I got the I got ribbed because I said tape and then you said, what are we in like 1992? And I was reminded that that was the era of CDs. So we are apparently both antiquated, sir.

Daryl Ratajczak: Okay, well, not so antiquated. And just so you know, folks, like most real podcasters, they have like sound people to do all this. We're trying to juggle all this at once, but I do have their conversation recorded. So let's jump into what the debate was this week about feral pigs. And this is how it got started. And that's the wrong one.

Stephanne: . No.

Daryl Ratajczak: Let's not play that one, let's play this clip, You done laughing? Here we go. They were really going at it this week over there at Mr. Johnson's place, but Like I started to say before before I got discombobulated with all the different soundtracks we have here the the essence of hazel's argument with mr. Johnson is that The pigs are bad like really bad and there is gonna be a lot to unpack here stuff, but Just so everyone knows pigs or wild hogs, whatever you want to call them, they're not from here. And what I mean by that is the boars, which are like the male pigs that Mr. Johnson's talking about, they're plain old farm pigs, which are not native to North America. And the problem is if they get loose, they can turn feral or wild faster than a teenager can find their phone.

Stephanne: Exactly. And these swine, don't just throw on a leather jacket and start living their best life. They're equipped with some serious survival instincts as well as some evolutionary support from their actual reproductive strategies.

Daryl Ratajczak: Yeah, now first off, let's tackle the question, why do pigs revert to this feral state so quickly?

Stephanne: Well, so when pigs escape domestication, they adapt and they can adapt remarkably fast. And they really do have a genetic predisposition for survival, which means that they can forage, reproduce, and quite literally, they can thrive in that wild environment.

Daryl Ratajczak: Right, they can breed literally, well, they can breed like pigs. Now, well, no, the saying is they can breed like rabbits, but pigs, rabbits, whatever. Anyway, what you were just mentioning there, ⁓ a female pig can have up to two litters a year ⁓ on average, those litters can range anywhere from six to 12 piglets per litter, and that's twice a year. So ⁓ a lot of potential feral pigs on the ground.

Stephanne: That, yeah, that is, it is like a never ending family reunion in that neck of the woods. And, you know, nobody wants to break up that kind of a family reunion.

Daryl Ratajczak: Yep. And once they're out, now they're not just wandering around foraging for acorns. They're digging up the ground, they're rooting around, which can lead to some pretty serious ecological damage.

Stephanne: Yeah, exactly. It can really, really disrupt the local flora and the fauna by, you know, up, uprooting the plants, you know, for example, that leads to soil erosion and they definitely compete and a lot of times out compete with a lot of the native species for the food, for the habitat, for those things that they need.

Daryl Ratajczak: Yeah, and it doesn't stop there. That rooting behavior can also create the perfect conditions for, say, invasive plants or invasive species to take over. talk about a double whammy with these guys.

Stephanne: So I guess the big question now is what do we do? You just said they're not from here, right? But that is the big thing. We have to remember these are an invasive species. So what can we actually do to limit the spread of the invasive little borgers?

Daryl Ratajczak: Well, great question. And this just so happens to be an area I am intimately familiar with. And did I ever tell you about the first week I had on the job as chief of wildlife for Tennessee?

Stephanne: I have known you for so long dude, probably, but go ahead, refresh my memory for the joy of our listeners.

Daryl Ratajczak: Well, I probably didn't tell the listeners, like you said. ⁓ So this was crazy. When I was working in the state of Tennessee for the Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency, I was promoted and I became the chief of wildlife for the state of Tennessee. it was a really cool job. It was up in the upper ranks of the agency. And I remember sitting down at the breakfast table back then, believe it or not, this is how long ago we had these things called newspapers. And they're like these big pages of like paper with news printed on them. And so here I was, brand new chief of wildlife, state of Tennessee, sitting down, eating breakfast. And I opened up the newspaper, didn't even have to open it up. Front page, there was a heading there about wild pigs in Tennessee. and I'm reading it and just so you know, those feral hogs, those wild pigs in Tennessee, were just beginning to become a problem for the state. They were starting to spread all over. And there was a lot of folks that did not like how the agency was handling the situation. And so I'm reading the article and lo and behold, I get halfway through and they're interviewing someone and the person says, we need to... get the governor to fire Ed Carter, who was the director of the agency, and Darryl Ratajak, who's the chief of wildlife for TWA. And here I was, I'm only in the job a week, and on the front page someone's calling for me to be fired by the governor. So I had, I guess you can say, a baptism by fire into the world of wild hogs. So how about that for like one of the first days on the job?

Stephanne: Thanks You know, you know, there's, there's kind of getting that, that gut kick surprise, but that one on the front page of a newspaper, I think you there's an award in here. I'm going to, I'm going to give you an award. Yeah. Like a gold star award.

Daryl Ratajczak: Yeah. Thank you. I wish I kept that. I've got hate mail galore that I keep because it's kind of funny. It's a position where you cannot possibly make everybody happy. And it just so happens that people that are not happy let you know.

Stephanne: Yeah, they definitely do that. So I mean, so let's just, I don't have the experience with feral pigs that you have. And I've read a lot. I've heard a lot. tell me this. I can probably venture a guess. But tell me how the pig invasion all started. I'm assuming it's not with the Muppets.

Daryl Ratajczak: Okay, well this is actually pretty easy. When we're talking about wild hogs in North America or wild pigs in North America, believe it or not, Steph, they weren't here. Pigs are pretty much from the old world, Europe, Asia. And where do you think they came from? They were brought over first off, by the Spaniards, some of the early explorers to North America. And I believe it was as early as the 1400s when some of these Spanish explorers or Eastern European explorers started coming over on their ships. They needed to bring a food source with them in order to survive. And obviously livestock, animals that can reproduce and provide a constant flow of food, they wanted to bring those along on their ships. And one of those... species that they brought along was the pig from Europe, which is today's farm pigs. And if you look at their scientific name, it's Seuss Scrofa. So the early Europeans, when they arrived, 1400s, 1500s, 1600s, they brought more and more of these. Now, initially, they didn't just have pens to put these animals in. So they let a lot of them just roam free. And then hopefully if they were nearby enough, they could harvest one or two whenever they needed it. And there was that constant supply of food. So the pigs that we have here in North America, these feral hogs, whatever you want to call them, they're from Europe and they were first introduced by those first European settlers just a few hundred years ago.

Stephanne: OK. I mean, that kind of makes sense, right? Because you just said we talked about the reproductive strategy and you said the average is like 6 to 12 piglets twice a year. I mean, if you figure, do I have to rely on Bessie the cow to have calves? Well, I'm talking one a year, you know. And then I'm talking if I brought Sui the pig over, I'm definitely looking at a lot more pork chops and bacon to kind of. feed my group of folks.

Daryl Ratajczak: And just so you know, let me continue on that, because those domesticated animals, you have to understand, livestock has been domesticated by humans for thousands of years prior to this. And so there's a lot of behaviors that are kind of like weeded out for the benefit of humans that are raising these. But things like the continuous litter of pigs, like that could also be something that was bred into them that wouldn't normally be natural. ⁓ you look at some of the more native animals, they typically breed once a year, especially the larger mammals, they breed once a year. ⁓ the timing is just right where they're putting those animals down at the time of the year where the offspring is most likely to survive. Then you have this domesticated animal. that might be selected for over thousands of years because it breeds like crazy. And so it's just unleashing this unnatural storm. So the pigs that were introduced here were just unlike any other animal known to the continent at the time.

Stephanne: Totally. That makes sense. yeah, I could see how if you were breeding domesticated livestock, the propensity to have more offspring would be something you would want to continue breeding for. So yeah, totally makes sense. So when you talk about the Eurasian boar, all right, so in my head, and I, for the record, I really like the Stephanie gets to be lazy and not use her brain method for tonight's podcast. This is amazing. All I got to do is ask.

Daryl Ratajczak: AVERT! We gotta have more of those, but on the flip side, the Darrell version, where you talk and I just nod my head.

Stephanne: Nope. So, okay, so I'm thinking, you know, in my head, Arkansas razorback looking feral pig, you know, with the big tusks. And so, so when you're talking about the, the feral pigs, like relate that to the, the, the razorback, the Russian, you know, feral hogs that are crazy looking.

Daryl Ratajczak: Very good question because you have to understand a lot of domestic animals and we mentioned this on a previous podcast They have what are called breeds ⁓ Wild animals we have these subspecies that we talked about but domesticated animals have lots of different breeds now a lot of people when they think of This Eurasian boar this wild fierce-looking hog like the Arkansas razorback There is a wilder version of these European pigs that had the big old tux, tusks. They're hairy, they got kind of like a longer mane down their back. That's just like a typical breed. That's a more wilder breed. ⁓ But the exact same species, Seuss Scrofa, is also responsible for like these farm pigs, these Yorkshires, and I don't even know all the different kinds of breeds, but they're the exact same animal. And so a lot of people think that these wild hogs that we have running in North America are these fierce looking razorback animals. Some of them are, some of them aren't. Some of them are just plain old farm pigs that just got loosed and just got nasty on us.

Stephanne: And just for clarity, like when we were talking about breeds and just for the record, the only breeds of pigs that I was actually aware of were like bacon chops. Anyway, yeah, exactly. You know, barbecue. But when we're talking about these breeds, so one of the things that we have to keep in mind is just like dog breeds, right? You can have a a quote unquote a purebred husky and you can have a purebred chihuahua. Now,

Daryl Ratajczak: Bake in pot rose.

Stephanne: why it might be uncomfortable for somebody in this relationship in theory, because these are the same species of animal they can breed and have viable offspring, which then, you know, that would be an interesting one to see. just kind of if to your point, though, if we did have a prevalence where for some reason, one of these more, we'll just call it aggressive looking breeds ⁓ hooked up with one of you know, the the more domesticated looking breeds, it creates a quite a dynamic visually. So the phenotypic differences would start to demonstrate even if the genotypic differences were pretty much stable. So the way that they look versus the genetics of them. I know you were looking for the buzzer, weren't you? You were looking. Yeah.

Daryl Ratajczak: Very good. I almost buzzed you on that. I was reaching for the buzzer. But another thing to think about and know and understand is even these more friendlier looking Arnold-like pigs, when they get loose and in the wild, this terminology of turning feral, they get wild pretty darn quickly, within a generation or so. their hair's growing longer, their tusks and teeth are growing longer, and so they can become gnarly looking. Probably not as gnarly as some of those Eurasian razorbacks that we're thinking of, but they can, besides looking nastier, they can behave much nastier. Like an animal that's being talked to, intended to by Farmer Johnson over there, relation to Mr. Johnson. they behave differently, but when they get in the wild and they're fending for themselves, they get nasty pretty quick.

Stephanne: Yeah. And that's kind of some of that goes back to that adaptability, right? Like their, their body type will start to adapt more to be successful in their environment because they're in a very adaptable species. So, yeah. So, but tell me this a minute ago, you were talking about how the Spaniards brought them over and, you know, good food source and, ⁓ apparently ships pretty well, but we do have, mean, so let's talk about, tell me about javelinas, right? Like that's a pretty pig looking little bugger.

Daryl Ratajczak: Yeah, for those that don't know, there is... I mentioned these pigs that we're talking about are from the Old World, from Europe. And all of those are from the genus Sus. ⁓ Most of the pigs are Sus scrofa, that's the genus and species. But here in North America, believe it or not, there is a New World type of pig out there. But the thing is, it's in a completely different genus. It might even be in a different family. ⁓ Actually, it is. I called up notes just to make sure. The family Tysoidae. The Peccary. If you've ever heard of a Peccary or a Hevelina, very pig-like looking animal, but that is the New World version of it. So they're vastly different. So they're not gonna mate, different family. they're not gonna mate with these pigs that we introduced here. So I do wanna let you know that there ⁓ ⁓ native species that are very pig-like, but just so you know, those are more towards our southern border, like down in Texas, Arizona, New Mexico. ⁓ you don't see them throughout North America like you're starting to see these European pigs.

Stephanne: Yeah, OK. So one of the things that ⁓ I think it was Hazel mentioned ⁓ how these pigs are just laden with diseases. These guys are apparently just a vector. So let's talk about that because I do know that, and I cannot for the life of me remember the names of the diseases. You and I have had conversations sitting in a chair. ⁓ wait, before I even get into that. So you were talking about the wild, gnarly, crazy, they get aggressive and you know. I remember one time you and I, think, I don't remember where were. We were doing bear bait stations. I don't have any real like fear of running into a bear when we were out doing bear bait stations. But I don't know if you recall the one time I came across a lot of Farrah hog track that was fresh. I turned into the most skittish person out in the wild that you have ever seen. Do you remember that?

Daryl Ratajczak: Like, didn't a dog go running by us and like you literally jumped out of your skin because... No, I don't remember that at all.

Stephanne: Yeah, because there was tracks from from hogs. mean, because they were, you know, no, yeah, obviously you forgot all about it. But yeah, I mean, but you're not wrong. Like I know, I know people that have been, you know, gored by by hog when they were out, you know, raccoon hunting, for example, and got a little too close because pigs can be they can be some pretty, pretty aggressive little little creatures. And when I say little, I don't mean little. mean, you know, little like the big guy Tiny is nicknamed Little. Yeah, no, they're huge.

Daryl Ratajczak: ⁓ yeah. Well, speaking of that, never really describe, I didn't think we had a need to describe the pigs, but just understand folks, these pigs can get large. We're talking a couple of hundred pounds in the wild, which is a really big animal, especially like in the eastern half of the US. So they rival in size to some of the biggest animals out there. Now you don't get those five, six, 800,

Stephanne: Hundreds of pounds, yeah.

Daryl Ratajczak: Sometimes even close to a thousand pound pigs unless you're feeding them slop every day So these wild the wild hogs don't get as large But they can still be decent size and before we jump to diseases stuff I think it'd be good because we mentioned that they were they're first introduced by the the Europeans typically I think they They talk about some of the first locations where pigs hit the ground running was in, Florida And so if we're talking about where we find these pigs nowadays, we should mention they're not in all 50 states. They were pretty much introduced into those Southeastern states, Florida, and they started spreading through there. So for a few hundred years, they kind of spread through those Gulf states, Alabama, Mississippi, Texas, really kind of just growing in population ⁓ And thing was they didn't... really spread much, but within the last couple of decades, say 20 years ago, we're starting to see pigs popping up in more and more places. And we can talk about that later, but for the most part, the vast majority of their populations now, these feral pigs, they're found in the southern half of the U.S., but it ranges all the way from the East Coast to the West Coast. California has a huge contingency of pigs. Hawaii has pigs, sadly. ⁓ But it's primarily in the southern states, but it is expanding rapidly. And we could address that later. But you mentioned pig diseases.

Stephanne: Okay. I, yes, and I will gladly, I will remember to circle us around the block back to that topic. But yeah, let's let's talk about those pig diseases because I know hashtag hazel brought them up and inquiring minds.

Daryl Ratajczak: Yeah, and the thing with the diseases and why they're such a concern, besides the environmental concern with kind of out competing native species, introducing invasive species, lots of concern there. But another big concern is they're not the healthiest of animals. There's a number of diseases that they can and do carry that are a concern. in two major areas. There's some human health concerns with ⁓ brucelosis and pseudorabies that we can catch. It's not all that common, but where it really becomes a concern is when it spreads into the agricultural community. So if you start introducing some of these diseases into these swine operations, that could have tremendous economic impact. And so there is literally a whole host of diseases, foot and mouth disease, ⁓ swine influenza, lots of stuff that is just nasty stuff. they're just not, they're not a good animal.

Stephanne: Somebody's gonna ask a question. You just said swine influenza. If make that a much more simplistic statement, you just said the pig flu, which we had a giant outbreak of, gosh, what was that like a decade ago? Same thing, some species.

Daryl Ratajczak: Yes, I did. Yeah, yeah, and this is why it's a concern. It's like, because these things are ubiquitous, big word, meaning pretty much all over the place, we can never just completely stop thinking about these diseases. They always gotta be in the back of your mind, and every once in a while, they kinda raise their ugly head, and it's like, oh, we gotta deal with this again, so.

Stephanne: Yeah.

Daryl Ratajczak: Anyway, just not the cleanest of animals. Now, don't get me wrong. There's lots of animals, domestic wild animals that have lots of diseases, but it's just a big concern because you know as well as I, when it comes to feeding Americans or feeding people in general, the pork industry is huge. Not as big as the pig, or not as big as the pig. Much smaller than the hog industry, but. I meant the beef industry is probably bigger than the hog industry, but you understand how it could be a really large economic concern.

Stephanne: I do. do. just, know, yeah, that's that's a that is a big deal. And like you said, can it's not even just the concern with the economic thing, but honestly, it's the concern with actually the the feeding of the masses thing, because work is a very, very common product for us to go to. So all right, I promised you that I would circle the block back and we would talk about why why the feral hog problem has spread so quickly. And I know we have had so many conversations about this. So this is a good topic.

Daryl Ratajczak: Yes. And it kind of circles back. We actually mentioned it last week or two weeks ago when we did our last podcast on chronic wasting disease diseases in the wild ⁓ particularly they're spread nose to nose by having ⁓ contact one pig to the next pig diseases in the wild tend to spread relatively slowly because it's just ⁓ moving the landscape. kind of like playing tag with other animals. If you're a few states away or hundreds of miles away, it's not gonna reach you for a long time. The problem with many wildlife diseases today too is we're looking at two of them right now, humans. Now I'm not saying mere you, but it's our species which causes the greatest concern because when you take a diseased animal, whether or not it's live or dead, depending on like what type of vector, whether or not it's a viral bacterial, a few weeks ago it was that prion or prion disease. When you take those disease agents and you transport them, whether or not it's knowingly or unknowingly, you travel 70 miles an hour down a highway and you can go long distances. And lots of people, especially hunters that are going on these long distance treks, they can travel hundreds and hundreds of miles from far off states to go hunting, retrieve an animal and bring it back. And so that is one way that these diseases spread much more rapidly. But in the case of these wild pigs or these feral hogs, I told you they were kinda pretty much hanging around in those Gulf states, Florida, Mississippi, Georgia.

Stephanne: country.

Daryl Ratajczak: Yeah, and the thing is, we kind of had maps to see where all these pigs were, and they stayed there for a long time. And then within the last like 50 or 60 years, you would see a population pop up a state away, or like a good distance away from any known pig populations.

Stephanne: So suddenly you have a pocket population.

Daryl Ratajczak: Yes, and then you'd have another one 30 miles away. And it's not like the pigs are running there undetected and just starting anew. So here is the most likely event that happened. We started recognizing decades ago that hogs are not a good thing. And so many of the southern states opened up these

Stephanne: No, no, but 15 cents a head.

Daryl Ratajczak: these hog seasons to, hey, let's kill them. They're on the landscape, they're good eating, gotta be careful, cook the meat thoroughly, just like any other animal. But all these states started to open up these hog hunting seasons and it was meant to control their population. That's what a lot of hunting seasons are meant for. And so because we didn't want hogs on a landscape, we said, as many as you want. And a lot of the folks down there loved it. And you know as well as I, you're a hunter stuff. Do you enjoy hunting? Yeah.

Stephanne: Yeah, so you work to perpetuate your hobby.

Daryl Ratajczak: Yeah, so if you went, maybe you were born and raised, your family was a hog hunter their whole life, or you just tried it anew and you're like, wow, this is really cool, this is fun, I love eating wild hog, this is great, I wish I could do it back home, but back home we don't have any pigs. Guess where you could get a pig?

Stephanne: Mold Man Johnson for 15 cents a head.

Daryl Ratajczak: ⁓ man, cents a head, anywhere you want. And so whether or not people were trapping them out of the wild or just buying them from the farmer down the road, all they had to do is transport it to an area where that was much closer to home where they wanted to hog hunt and turn them loose. And this whole episode, we're talking about how quickly they go wild, they go feral. And so we started seeing these populations pop up in all these different places. The spread, not only from a disease standpoint, but from ⁓ the pig population standpoint and range, we are primarily the ones to blame for why they're spreading so fast.

Stephanne: Yeah, so that makes I can see that that would make the management strategy difficult, right? Because I always said it, you and I have always said if the animals could read signs, our world would be so much easier because it's usually the people part of everything. I said that in my normal job to technology is easy. People are the hard part and it's no different in your side of the world. but what, how do you help to kind of manage against that because you do have the people piece? So what's what's the communication strategy look like, you know?

Daryl Ratajczak: Well, to reiterate what I was saying is at first state wildlife agencies wanted to limit their spread or at least control their population. And so they unleashed these hunting seasons, say you could shoot as many as you want, whenever you want. And the reason why hunting them won't work for eradication, it could potentially work for control if enough people were doing it, but the reason it won't work for eradication. because we would love to get rid of them if we could. The problem is, if people enjoy it, you're not gonna wanna wipe out whatever it is that you enjoy doing. And so that's why hunting as a strategy to eradicate wild hogs or wild pigs, it will never work. And so one of the things we tried doing in Tennessee, and I'll say it wasn't the greatest success, but you gotta try different avenues. lots of those other states in the South, whether or not it's Texas or Florida, for a few decades, literally became, hunting hogs became this trophy mentality. Ooh, I want to travel to Texas and go hog hunting and see what I can kill. So it becomes this phenomena where you're attracting people because they want to do it. And that is sending a message to the public that hogs are good. They're this prized game species that economically for food sources, for pleasure, whatever you want, it's this good animal to have on the landscape. And it's like, that is bass ackwards. These are nasty animals we don't want here. They're non-native. So we've got to try to change the entire look of wild hogs. Instead of making them like this trophy animal, you got to make it so as soon as you mention it, people think, ooh, vile pest, bad. Get rid of it. I will tell you first and foremost, it hasn't worked well. wildlife agencies are really struggling to ⁓ with this situation. ⁓ trying to draw a line in the sand, but you're still seeing these pig populations pop up every

Stephanne: I mean, so you're fighting a belief structure, right? And an entitlement. and at the end of the day, pigs are here domestically, so it's too easy to replenish that population. So yeah, I mean that I feel bad for everybody trying to fight that fight because that does not sound like a fun fight. So we talked about that. What about the future then? What's the future outlook looking like?

Daryl Ratajczak: Yeah, it's a great question and I think we can kind of look at this like we should look at many of these wildlife issues. And I always bring up, I mentioned this book I read, I don't know if you ever read it by Charles Mann, it's called 1491.

Stephanne: Yes. Yes.

Daryl Ratajczak: It's a really cool book because it paints a picture of what North America looked like 1491 is the year before Columbus arrived. So it's like what North America looked like before this European invasion. And it's this wonderful world. And the problem is we are never going back to that. And I will be... the first to tell you, lots of state agencies, lots of federal agencies, lots of these management agencies, they're trying to go back to how things used to be. Whether or not it's, they're not trying to go back to 1491, but they're trying to restore populations to what they looked like in the 1950s or 1920s, 1980s. They're always looking backward. And that is wrong. We cannot go backwards. No matter how hard we try, even if we wanted to go back to 1980, guess what? We got so many more people nowadays, so much more infrastructure and roads. We can't go back to the way things used to be. So I wish that these management agencies would start, hey, let's not try to go back in time. Let's look forward 20 years, 50 years, 100. Let's try to say, this is what we want it to look like in 50 years. instead of let's mimic what it was like 50 years ago. And so. As far, well let me ask you, because I really haven't thought about it yet, but in 20 years, 50 years, what do you think the pig outlook is going to look like in North America?

Stephanne: So, wow, okay. The pig outlook? Yeah, it's... Honestly, probably I don't see it changing much. ⁓ You might see a little bit of a decrease just because it seems that as time passes, ⁓ you have less people spending time outdoors doing some traditional recreation activities. So to that end, you might see a smidgen less of the spread and the persistence. Yeah.

Daryl Ratajczak: ⁓ I see what you're saying.

Stephanne: So, but because at the end of the day though, it's still gonna be, you're still gonna have those same pockets of areas that are probably more just, whether from the geographic distribution, you might see less. On the flip side of that, we'll probably see additional human expansion, which could limit down some of the, even the natural habitat for things we wouldn't wanna see decreased. But I think the hard part is when we're asked to reimagine the future, most people are, program to reimagine their future based on their already known experiences. So they'll still pass into that to some degree. So I think we're going to have to have some really good innovative people to kind of think it at the new strategies. There'll be influences that are going to impact it, but I don't know what those influences are going to do to the pig population.

Daryl Ratajczak: Yeah, no, that's a great, great commentary on that. Because I agree with you. We're not, we're not going to have less pigs. We're going to have more pigs. That's almost a guarantee. And I personally think it's just going to spread further and further north. I don't know if you read it. ⁓ A few years ago, there was an article. It's one of those articles that really gets legs, but ⁓ with this spread northward, like most of the southern half of the US has a lot of these pigs and not so much in the northern half. But believe it or not, even Canada, there's been some pocket populations pop up in Canada. And there is originally thought that, ooh, maybe the cold will be a limiting factor. Heck no. They have these, the article is talking about these super pigs that were just surviving in. and bitter cold and they're just so highly adaptable. If we think that climate, the colder climate is gonna limit these animals, I don't think that's the case at all. And so the future outlook for pigs, I just think there's gonna be more and more pockets throughout North America. ⁓ It's hard to predict, but we're never going back. We're not getting rid of pigs. So let's clear that out of our mindset.

Stephanne: No, no, we're not getting rid of pigs. And in addition to that, if people think that the cold is going to limit them, they seem to forget what the climate's like in Russia, in some of these areas of Russia where the feral hogs are, where hogs are prevalent. Yeah, yeah.

Daryl Ratajczak: ⁓ yeah. That's why they got so hairy. All right, we've been talking about pigs for quite a bit. So you ready to wrap things up?

Stephanne: I can do that. So once again, folks, we absolutely love talking to you and talking to each other about wildlife. And we really enjoy trying to clear up some of that misinformation that you hear out there or substantiating, you know, pieces of information that you might accidentally hear out there. So, but we also not just love talking to each other and talking to you all, we love listening to you. So if you have any topics that you'd like for us to explore. That's what brought us to today's topic. So by all means, please reach out to us. You can either reach us through the Wildlife for You Facebook Messenger, or you can email us at wfyquestions at gmail.com. Darryl absolutely loves reading email. So definitely hit him up on that.

Daryl Ratajczak: Yeah, and a big shout out to Rob for ⁓ bringing up this topic. So thank you to him. But like Stephanie was saying, we would absolutely love to hear from you with whatever topic ideas you may have, any compliments, even a few criticisms if you do have them, like all the stuttering I do or I can't find anything to criticize Stephanie for.

Stephanne: How about those, ⁓ yeah, the amazing production qualities that we add to our podcast.

Daryl Ratajczak: Yes. The fact that we don't have a sound producer over here. So if anyone is a sound producer and would love to work without pay, give me a call. So anyway, any comments, anything you have, just ⁓ bad ones go to Stephanie, good ones go to me. anyway, folks, we do thank you for listening. And remember, when it comes to wildlife,

Stephanne: Ha

Daryl Ratajczak: Your knowledge often means their existence. Thank you and be well.