Gordon: Welcome back to Existential Tetherball. I am Gordon Smith and this is Rachel Fell on the other side of the screen there. And you have walked into a room that is made of meaning making and is about an investigation into the embodied subjective. we have covered a lot of ground since this podcast Podcast are we still calling it a podcast? Rachel: It's a series of conversations. What does anything mean? You know? Yeah. Yeah. Gordon: series here. Okay. a a series of conversations, sometimes colloquially known as a podcast. and we're really glad that you're here to to to to play. ⁓ and so along the way we hope that you'll be liking and subscribing and commenting and letting us know ⁓ kind what your ⁓ piece of this conversation is. ⁓ Tetherball most often, especially by gifted kids, played alone. and ⁓ the trope that led us to title it that here. ⁓ but then ultimately what we're doing is being able to volley back and forth. And the more people you add to the game, the ⁓ A ⁓ dynamism it creates and then B the yeah just more surprises. Rachel: More surprises. I mean, collaborative meaning making, right? Like for some people, that is a delightful group activity and sport, right? And and like we've talked about, dare I dare I slash we say skill to and to develop as we move into, you know, some situations and some context in this world that asks us to really be able to co-create with others. So back to that, like, yeah, it's like meaning. Personal meaning shared, to be able to jam, to find common ground, to find differences, to get new perspectives. It's all it's very pragmatic. Gordon: Yeah, and that process can take some of the ⁓ the weight out of the heavy things and introduce today's topic, which is levity. how's that segue? It was pretty solid. ⁓ so yeah, we are opening the door of levity today, ⁓ and opening that word and investigating that world. ⁓ Rachel, ⁓ you you had you had something to kick us off with. Rachel: That was fantastic. I mean Yes. ⁓ yeah. Well, there's like a three-part formula we can always use when we're exploring words as worlds. And I think, you know, looking at external definition and meaning, present day, past, through time, that's always really useful, right? Is like what how is this externally shaped and defined, right? And we've talked a number of times now and and explore that, you know, is there consensus definition like Gordon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rachel: Language is not quantitative. We were kind of catching up earlier and talking about language learning models and all the sorts of really interesting things that come with, you know, meaning and language essentially. So really looking at it from this external perspective is like, well, when people use this word or when you know the dictionary reflects this back to us, what what is current usage? What are trends in usage? look at origin, look at etymology. And then I'd love for us to go, you know, kind of look at within. It's like, well, what does it mean to you? What have your experiences with levity been? What for me, like what stands out? Yeah, totally. So yeah, I was thinking let's just do that. Let's just do that. Nice. all right. So levity current definition ⁓ of consensus. It's really interesting. It's very focused on sort of like appropriateness and behavior. Gordon: Yeah. Exactly. Let's do it. Rachel: Which I find fascinating. It's like a long, it's a long way away from its etymological roots. So like current definition, a lack of appropriate seriousness or earnestness, inappropriate humor. And let's just say, let's just talk about how Google has defaulted me to AI in this condensation. So this is there is a certain I can go, we can go Oxford, we can go Merriam Webster, right? But this, in this, we got Miriam Webster and five others. being aggregated here. Tension relief. inappropriate humor, making jokes or being silly. Conversely, a quick quip or a moment of levity can also be used to ease tension or provide comfort. ⁓ it's really interesting. Inappropriate, but tension and relief. And it's all social, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Gordon: Huh. Tell social. Mm-hmm. ⁓ huh. Yeah, and and say that small that confinement. yeah, I I when I looked ⁓ at Merriam Webster think I found excessive and unseemly frivolity. Rachel: Mm. Gordon: So frivolousness, this like ⁓ purposeless is the is the implication. ⁓ right, right. ⁓ Well it gets it gets worse because from there it goes to unsteadiness, to lightweight, to ⁓ the least of them mutability. Rachel: Yeah, every single one of those words in that chain was like a judgment word. That's wild. Okay. Weird. Okay. Interesting. So it gets into it does kind of if we if we track that and we slow that down, it does get closer to the etymology the further you get away from the judgmental words. Because yeah, that's so fascinating. Gordon: ⁓ yeah. Uh-huh. Right. Yeah, yeah. ⁓ know, we could dwell in ⁓ society decided to judge ⁓ sort of thing. I'm gonna do an off the cuff reductive presumption that people who take themselves really seriously really don't like anyone changing the gravity. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, gravity's a force, right? Gravity has a certain kind of power. somberness, Yeah, there's a heft, there's a weight. And now we're, yeah, like now we're getting closer to the etymological roots of the word. ⁓ I definitely, yeah, it's like, is there space around ⁓ this Is there light? So levity. ⁓ Gordon: Heft. Mm-hmm. Rachel: Light levitate lightness to rise by virtue of lightness. is the opposite of gravity. And so if we go pure physics on it, they're just opposing forces. ⁓ Gordon: Hm. Mm. That's right, I'm getting on the elevator. Yeah, I'm just going to rise. I could take the stairs, but that would be harder. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. that is hardworking levity. That's That is hardworking mechanistic levitation right there. ⁓ when I was walking and kind of like just like rolling around the word in my interiority, ⁓ baking came up. Baking soda arose. It was like Gordon: No. Yeah. Hmm. ⁓ rose. Rachel: There's something about a rose, right? The biochemical, bioelectrical, the warmth, the thermodynamics, but also it's like really good bread. You know, that's like immediately where I went. I don't know if that, you know, carbloating or what, but this like adequate adequate lightness. Gordon: Yeah. lightness ⁓ yeah, it I appreciate the opposition to gravity because when we go to levitate, you know, this is seen as a it's a levitation as a type of magic. ⁓ and so here we are in the rational, not rational phase of this opposition. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that even that unpacking, like if you're a super nerd, we can get into the materiality energetics and like the supremacy of, you know, materiality and reductionism, right? And so it's like this unconscious privileging of like condensation and compression and form, right? But back to like with the that they who shape have power, right? And so if there's spaciousness around something. Gordon: Mm-hmm. Rachel: It could be you could shine a light on an angle that you didn't see before. You could like, you know, there's there's room to move about the cabin, right? And so a couple things at play here. It feels like as we're jamming, it's like ⁓ there's this ⁓ privileging of the compressive force or the downward force, the materiality, the condensation. And then there's also the power that comes with who shapes those forces. Can then can natural intelligence do what it's gonna do and dance with opposing forces? ⁓ we gonna try to control them? Yeah. Gordon: Hay Yeah, yeah, or dwell in that tension or move along that slider as we need to between those two poles. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Gordon: And like you said, if if we create space for new perspectives, for inviting new perspectives, that will often lead to a lightning. It could lead to a more deeply conclusion. ⁓ however, ⁓ if the is to introduce levity, I think rarely is it gonna end in intense gravity. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Gordon: Or they'll be co present, ⁓ but manageable. Rachel: Mm. It takes me to a really big question. Which is this like natural intelligence doing its thing, you know, sort of the beyond duality and opposing forces, just like being at work. And when we meddle less, what happens? I think a lot of times people think of levity as like jokes, right? And back to, you know, that inappropriate humor. but levity is just like shining a light on something that's true. And like, yeah, that might come with ⁓ sort like a thud. Gordon: Ready? Rachel: Let's say, is that the same thing? Like what's happening there? I guess is the question, right? When we open up that space, more gravity, distillation, it may maybe it's a it's something landing. So I know for myself, like when I'm in a situation that feels very heavy and I introduce levity, it is to like off gas, but also open up more space or something real to land, you know? ⁓ Gordon: Shit. Yeah, there's something about that introduces clarity, you know, light, clarity, to see ⁓ in a ⁓ crisp form. It reminds me I was at Camp UNASA a couple weeks ago and I gave this talk and it was about letting go. And one of the kids had a question after, and it was always like this Hopi Elder prophecy that I was reading and then talking about. ⁓ escaping conventionality and letting go of others' expectations. And and and I went to this kid and he said What is letting go? Rachel: Hell yeah. Gordon: And I immediately felt this lightness, like, that's a good question. Like, yeah, let's get clear on that. ⁓ and so ⁓ like heading toward the root of it, ⁓ illuminating. Rachel: Very good buddy. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Yes. There we go. Right. It it drops a level or a layer. There's something that happens when natural forces are able to do what they do and sort of like play and dance and integrate is like something more like true or less shaped, less ⁓ more condensed or lay like it's it's not always clarity for me, but it is like closer to something real, let's say. Yeah. Closer to something real. Yeah. Gordon: Mm-hmm. No Yes. then any ⁓ the ⁓ things that we were carrying unconsciously can kind of move to create the space that you were describing. So now we can ⁓ manipulate the object, so to speak, like, ⁓ now I can twist the prism, turn the jewel ⁓ and ⁓ understand Rachel: Yeah. Well be with what's really there as opposed to what we have shaped and formed to be there instead. You know, it's it's it's like this deeper thing, maybe, or truer thing. Gordon: Mm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Rachel: Yeah. Gordon: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, Bree, please bring it. Rachel: Let me give you an example. Is that okay? Okay. This is so like and banal. So hanging out with my family last weekend, and they're to make plans for my grandmother's 80th birthday. And they're back and forth and back and forth looking at me and You know, that for a long time was my role, right? To pick up and do, you know. When I looked back and I said, with all due love and respect, I was like, family's not the best at making decisions. I was like, I bet you guys can figure it out. Let me know when you do. And there that's not a joke. It was it was very like honest, truth-telling, like neurodivergent, like saying the thing is like, can I say this in this context? Gordon: Yeah. Rachel: And I could feel it land and I felt it ripple a little bit. And it was said with love. And it was said with this like illumination and honesty and kindness, this lightness. And it was like, hey, just saying, like, we're not always the best at making decisions, but like, I bet you two can figure it out. I'm not gonna decide. You let me know. Right. Fast forward a couple days, we got a decision. Like, there we go. So simple. So, so, you know, just like every day. Gordon: Mm-hmm. ⁓ huh. Hmm. One of the ⁓ one of the other applications of that root of levity, that LEV, ⁓ is smooth or to make smooth. ⁓ I I learned this ⁓ that the levitor is muscle serving to raise a body part and then ⁓ Rachel: Mm, ⁓ Gordon: To levigate is to smooth something. ⁓ So there's like this lifting and smoothing that are also inherent in here. And I hear it in the story you just told of like, this is a pattern I recognize. Let me go ahead and make some smoothness here. and just be able to name it push away. Rachel: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's for me in a very kinesthetic body like psychomotor, which very much connects with spatiality, it is like Breathing life into something? Gordon: Mm-hmm. Rachel: You know, the pattern in that situation would have been to defer, defer, defer, defer, defer, defer, defer, defer, defer, defer. So I'm like disrupting this pattern a little bit, breathing a little bit of air, call it light, shine a light on something, or just right in. ⁓ yeah, it disrupted ⁓ existing structures, the existing well worn interactions, behaviors. Gordon: Yeah, yeah, which felt heavy. Rachel: Yeah, exactly. I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, what do you want? What do you want? Is that classic god, right? But it makes me think of improv too, right? It's like you're disrupting well worn, you know, sort of conventions of social engagement. You know, you you have to work with what is surprising. Gordon: And ⁓ beauty you'd you you're bringing up improv. I do a bunch of improv, I instruct improv, I like to play, I was just doing it at camp. and have used utilized it as a fairly effective life strategy, just for how to move through my days of yes ending my own experiences, and yes ending what the world throws at me. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Gordon: So rather than that resistance, that weight, that heaviness, it's like, yes, that's what's present. Yes, that's what's true. here is what I'm gonna bring to that. ⁓ versus this is happening to me, now I'm in a relationship with it instead that ha where I have some power, where I have some agency. ⁓ And improv is funny. ⁓ I funny. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Gordon: I mean fall out funny because of the surprise, because of the support, because of what happens when you just let things unfold natural intelligence-wise. ⁓ and then sometimes it's not. Sometimes it goes to these really, really distressing places, ⁓ we all still know we're playing a game. Like we're in a game having this really dark existential back and forth between these household items. ⁓ Rachel: Mm. Yeah. Gordon: in this scene and ⁓ an absurdity to the scene itself, but the themes ⁓ heavy, but we get to treat them light. Rachel: ⁓ you know. Right. Right. Yeah, for me it's it's very much just like a composite feeling those dynamic forces, ⁓ being alive and moving, and two, being in some semblance of all of it's fine wherever it is, ⁓ there is like a preferential state in terms of like balance or coherence that I'm looking for usually, ⁓ my body is looking for. So it's really interesting because it it is the the force action, the the opposition of gravity, but it's it is ultimately this sort of like expansion and balance and sort of like right relationship between those forces where you can feel it. And so yeah, it's got some interesting like physiology to it as we jam on it. It's like, yeah, you can introduce levity, it gets real heavy real quick, you know. But there's that, you know, the skills, let's say of Gordon: Mm-hmm. Rachel: dropping down a layer or a level, you know, what do we have those collectively? You know, has therapy and and the conventions of therapy how that's changing how people are learning how to self-relate, you know, to work with activation or discomfort, to experience the full range of energy and motion in their bodies. It's like I felt like I could say that to my mother and my grandmother without like upsetting them too much. ⁓ know, like it wouldn't send crazy shock waves through their system. Gordon: Yeah. Yeah, it wouldn't create a different and equal weight. Rachel: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's fascinating stuff. So the etymology is so much more neutral than like trends in usage, but that tracks to trends in use all being judgmental, I feel like. Gordon: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, I'm so I'm so glad you brought it back to that social piece 'cause now that we've had twenty minutes of this, it's like, Well, isn't that a little a little silly? Like a little a little small. Rachel: Mm-hmm. It's yeah. Well what the hell? R you know, like ⁓ go ahead. Gordon: ⁓ it well it I was just gonna say before we jump out etymology stuff, I'm gonna just take it all the way back. I'm taking it all the way back to the Proto-Indo-European. I do not know how to pronounce this, but it was spelled in Merriam Webster L-E-G-W-H. and it not heavy. Doesn't light, it means not heavy. Rachel: Not heavy. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. What is heavy for individual? What is heavy for a collective? You're not you're ⁓ they're not waving a magic wand and nothing is heavy anymore. Like we live in ⁓ some of material experience. Weight is real, density is real, matter is real, and you know, how do we relate with matter? And I mean that on both levels, right? Gordon: Yeah. Uh-huh. Rachel: Like I mean that Gordon: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Do you extend the metaphor, like something that's heavy on Earth is fairly light on the moon. ⁓ it's not heavy. So Rachel: Right. Right. Yeah. I often say, know, there's these tropes or these cliches, like ⁓ work you know, you do work you work with folks and you come back to these sort of little like, you know, sh shortcuts or sound bites, ⁓ know. ⁓ People, you know, distinct human beings, individuals are like planets with their own, you know, sort of rules of, you know, it's like the gravity and the atmospheric makeup and the physics and the composition of the soil, right? And so this notion that what is heavy on somebody's planet is is very light in another's. I think that's very fascinating. And it's all about environment, context, ecosystemic ⁓ conditions. It's it's all about that, right? So Gordon: The physics. Yes. Rachel: if we take this back to humaning and relating, it's like, okay, so at a funeral. People are gonna have very different relationships with the heaviness. Death is heavy. Death is heavy. It's like probably, you know, death and violence are not the same thing. I've been kind of exploring that in the ambient background the last couple months. Death violence aren't the same thing, but like death is real. It's part of the human, you know, experience. ⁓ Gordon: Mm. Rachel: How do we relate with that heaviness? Gordon: You just gave me an idea for my own funeral. I'm gonna have to write it in. ⁓ it's like what would happen if if people showed up and they got their little program and a little slideshow is going on, celebration memorial, ⁓ and everybody got the program and they got a a whoopee cushion that was already inflated. No instructions. Just hand it to them. They could even like have have my face on it. Rachel: No instructions. ⁓ my god. Gordon: With like the with like the birth and death dates. And then throughout this service, people are gonna be squeezing those things. And it's just gonna turn into a fart fest funeral. same gravity. I'm still dead, people are still sad, but we're laughing at farts. Rachel: Yeah. Yep. Fu fart noises. Just it's like a mass just like damn you, Gordon, that's so good. Like it's just like ⁓ last ridiculous challenge. Like it's like it's to feel like like the restraint, right? It's like don't forget your commemorative whoopee cushion. Get of here. That's so good. And it brings it all together in a really great way, right? But that's that's it, right? It's like death gives life meaning. Yeah, that's more on the serious side, right? It's like, yeah, like and so now we get into just so last night I watched this. was like ⁓ it was ⁓ I am Chris Farley, and it was he's from Madison, Wisconsin. You know, I ⁓ up watching him on Saturday Night Live and it's just just short, really sweet film on this this This human being with this incredible gift for improv and comedy and really exploring some of these themes also and some of the deep, you know, the some of the deep pain, some of the deep vulnerability, the tenderness, you know, the humor is real, the levity is real, the propensity is real. And so to, you know, these other aspects. but for for the trickster archetype, you know, the jester, it's like this has been a role for a very long time to introduce levity, to introduce lightness. It's like. ⁓ Gordon: Yeah. Rachel: you know, the truth teller through the context of comedy. It's like, you know, is there always a shred of truth in comedy is a question like people I've heard people ask and kind of explore, right? But it's like this is a function in inhumaning, this this, you know, and and some some have a gift with this, you know, and a sort of, you know, a propensity, their unique fingerprint is to use Gordon: ⁓ yeah. I was just you made me think of Taylor Tomlinson. I don't know if you followed her her work. ⁓ but she is making observations about relationships and her own mental health. and is doing so in ways that are c it's cracking people up, ⁓ allowing her to be vulnerable about some of the most difficult things in front of the world and getting paid for it, but a lot of people joy through ⁓ Rachel: Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Mm-hmm. Gordon: Turning that gravity on its head. Rachel: Yeah. I mean, it's the relatability. Like, you know, you you're such a interesting, it's like what happened the therapist and, you know, comedian right next door to each other. It's like those aren't that far apart. You know, it's like that sort of space where we shine a light, where we do take a moment and step back and, you know, ask ourselves like what is really true here? What is really present here? And like, how do we relate with it? It's like that trick that, you know, so that Gordon: Right. Rachel: That's therapy, that's you know, comedy. And then the trickster archetype, it's like to shine a light on something and not say it directly. Here's a riddle. It's like I'm not gonna say it in a way that's gonna be straightforward and plain and have the gravity of like, ⁓ well, that sucks. die, you know, whatever, right? It's like ⁓ a little, you know, or or to not say something directly. I think of the oracle in Matrix. And now I'm shifting away from trickster, but more into this like this energy of like shining a light on something, but not in a linear way. Right. Not in in not in like a very direct way. So levity comes in so many forms, I think, you know. Gordon: Mm. Mm hmm. it's funny that you bring up the trickster because one of the words that came out of that Proto Indo European ⁓ E G W H was leprechaun. Mm-hmm. ⁓ hmm. Yeah. There's the trickster. ⁓ that Mercurial spirit. Rachel: ⁓ all right. Sure. There we go. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And there's always like a shape-shifting, like a herme, you know, there's always, I went right to the machine elves. There's again as machine elves is like my experience of Leprechaun when you said that. Yeah. In, you know, when when opposing forces and when natural intelligence can do its thing, what does emerge? You know, and how do we relate with that? Gordon: Right. Uh-huh. Rachel: Yeah, the social convention thing seems like quite a bit about policing and control, if I'm being honest. And you you mentioned earlier why levity. Like why does this matter now? You know? Why does it matter always? Gordon: Yeah. Yeah, and and and there's there's something to be said for when you're on your own planet and when you're on someone else's to go back to your earlier metaphor. Like if if for the person you're with this is very heavy and you make light of it, ⁓ ⁓ dishonors that person's experience. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Gordon: ⁓ and so there's this invitation to show up where that person is in the heavy. Connect and then light can be introduced. Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. Gordon: ⁓ but first, respect the planet you're on. Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes you may not know the planet you're on or you might walk into a room and you got a couple planets standing together making small talk at a networking event. And like you come in with a joke and you come in a little hot. And the planetary sort of ⁓ the planetary sort of average is like, ⁓ that was not okay, you know. And neurodivergence, right? Neurocomplex like, yeah, like can I can I kind of gauge and feel into where that zone of relationality is, you know. Gordon: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ I I I did that one recently. ⁓ was supposed to be getting this criminal background check to go work at that summer camp, but the the method that they had given us wasn't working for some reason. Nobody could like get through this process. And and so they just said, Well just forget it. ⁓ And replied, can g my probation officer can contact you. Rachel: Mm. Mm-hmm. Ha ha ha ha. Gordon: I got crickets. like ⁓ it was bad. It was bad. It was it it wasn't the time. I didn't know. I was like, ⁓ this is gonna be funny. ⁓ but Rachel: No. Can I ask you a c can I ask you a question about that? that just like shot off the hip, like excitable, like like unmasked, like authentic Gordon? Or was that consciously testing the waters of this person's? No, it was just like, ⁓ Gordon: ⁓ yeah. That's right. Hey I I am gonna take up space here ⁓ and and allow for that shoot from the hip. Y'all know me well enough. ⁓ Rachel: Mm-hmm. Gordon: To know that I'm not serious etc. Anyway, it was it was a introduction of levity, ⁓ for me. ⁓ Rachel: It worked for me. I laughed. so glad you went there and that I I watched myself want to bust in and be like, so you didn't tell them about your rapture. They don't know about your they don't know your sorted path. But you took it and got went right there. Yeah. Yeah. So levity, with levity, relationship with joking around. It's different, right? It's like, okay. Gordon: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Rachel: Neurotypes are real, you know, there's no one right way to be in the world, right? There's no one right way. You know, I've worked with clients of all stripes around the globe with similar-ish, similar-ish neurodivergence profiles who are very different from one another for all sorts of reasons, right? feeling into that range, it begs this question of like, you know. introducing introducing levity because of the gravity. What happens when everything's serious? You know, in the human body mind, it's like everything's serious when everything's a threat. You know, I go back to like Leela and the divine play. And we live in a very, very heavy time. Like there's a shit ton of gravity. I mean literal gravity, but like in in the metacrisis in the world right now. And you can feel it. I'm saying it. I'm saying it in a way that is clear, concise. Gordon: Yes. Yeah. Rachel: Am I introducing levity? Am I introducing gravity by naming what's here? Right. And so it it is this who cares about that? We don't need to attribution whatever that is, but it's like, why levity? Because of the gravity, because of the seriousness. Like it's like, but what back to like what are the ways in which we introduce levity? And what you may not have been doing it consciously, but like Trying to create like a fun relationship with these people. know, like ⁓ we just like it's like you're I'm like trying to be relatable. Like let's make work fun. Let's make this email exchange delightful. Gordon: Yes, this is the kind of thought that crosses my mind when this sort of things happen. I will share it with you. ⁓ so it's community, it's lightness. ⁓ to go back to your thing about like because of the gravity, ⁓ you know, the why levity. ⁓ it i think it bears saying that there are places in which ⁓ levity in the face of gravity is that excessive frivolity. Rachel: Right. Right, exactly. Mm-hmm. Gordon: ⁓ in in to the ears of those who are amidst feeling their way through the gravity. and just want to name that levity is not about dissociating from what's hard. that it's not about avoidance ⁓ but it's about engagement from a place where whatever it is we're contending with becomes more manageable. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Way to thread the needle there, Gee. Because it can be used as avoidance. And I think it can be used as a way to kind of bounce out of the gravity or that sort of like that truth nugget that's dropped down a level or two because we've been able to give it enough space to dislodge or kind of unstick itself. Like, you know, it's like if if it's a right relationship between natural opposing forces doing whatever it's doing. physics-wise, however we want to conceptualize it, however we want to think about it. It is like, are we gonna look at what's there? Are we gonna, you know, is is it it's this adaptive lightness where we, you know, just kind of float above and fly by and like, hi, that's funny, bye. know, like so I think it can be used that way for sure. And I've had some really interesting conversations with people who, you know, comedy for them is a career, like, you know, like yourself, right? And it and it is this question of like, yeah, it's like, w this this has a function and it's like what do we do from here? You know? So Gordon: Yes, and it's interesting, like comedy I don't think of improv as comedy as far as like my own the way ⁓ use it and experience it, but we're talking about Chris Farley at Second City. We are talking about improvisational theater that is funny. ⁓ that is intended to be comedic, ⁓ is is not to be tragic. And the levity of improv is in ⁓ Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Gordon: breaking free from pattern ⁓ is in spontaneity and trust. trust that if we just keep winding our way with mutual acceptance and support, we get there. We get to we either get to the funny or at least we get to the conclusion. Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. We get to something. We get to something different. We get to someplace we weren't before. Yeah. And I mean, yeah, Chris Farlet, that just, yeah, it's like his his his, you know, configuration being very, you know, it was so interesting to watch the conventions and mechanisms and like sort of all of it come together to create this like, yeah, this incredible human who, yeah, improv, but then on, you know, improv. Gordon: Yeah, we get somewhere. Yes. Rachel: And then yeah, just so funny, introducing so much levity. Yeah. Gordon: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Rachel: Mm-hmm. I mean, the vulnerability behind that, right? So the that is that place where you kind of like, are you gonna come down towards what's real? Are you gonna stay kind of up and move away from, right? Like the will do some off gassing for sure. You know, levity is an opposing force, ⁓ but we don't work with what is there, you know, you're just gonna kind of keep having to do that over and over, if that makes sense. Yeah. Gordon: Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah, and that the improv perspective that I was just describing ⁓ about kind of coming unstuck from whatever ⁓ agreed consensus reality a moment ago to allow for that to change. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Stuck neural pathways of meaning and association. Somebody lobs you the word, you know, like banana and you weren't expecting it. It's like, well, you're gonna have to go potato, right? Farmer. I don't know. Unstuck. That's well worn, right? Blight. Funny? No. right. Like it's like ⁓ ⁓ like ⁓ of the gravity, because of the compression, because of the well-worn, it's like Gordon: Potato. Blessed. Rachel: you know, aliveness is a big, you know, people are talking about aliveness a lot lately. I mean, which is a h yeah, they are. They, whoever they are. And that's also the most hilarious and ridiculous thing I could say. Like a lot people have been talking It's so hot right now. Is consciousness like what was that article you and I ran across? Like, is consciousness the next big thing? I'm just like, I don't even know how to respond to this. Like I can't this is hilarious to me. Like Gordon: Are they? Aliveness is so hot right now. Rachel: I use a lot of levity internally to cope with the reality of many things, but then to like move back towards them, right? It's like to unstick to work with what's there. You know, it's sort of like you're going beyond the well worn. You're going you're uns you're unsticking yourself. And then you mentioned resilience earlier, I feel like when we were chatting briefly before we hopped on. Flexibility. Gordon: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ y the because of the metacrisis, polychrisis, because of the all the injustices, violence, pain, and suffering that is woven into our day to day, no matter what your algorithm is right now, you're being force fed a lot of pain. ⁓ hard to hold. It's hard to hold, it's hard to hold and be a like have a life that you like. Rachel: Yeah. Gordon: And so I think of resilience in that context, I think about well, how do I exist in this context and a full life, not simply the heaviness? Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. Full, flexible, coherent. I know that you don't always love the word balance. For me, it's an okay one. like it's like it's not vibrating off kilter. There's some sort of ⁓ opposing forces in their various polarities and vectors ⁓ somehow hanging out together. ⁓ that sort of the yes and opening up this this third ⁓ This both end, right? This this more dimensionality, this spaciousness, this expansion, right? And so flexibility and resilience is like, well, yeah, I'm not gonna look away from it, but I can't like swimming in the quicksand alongside Artex, the horse that's sinking in the never-ending story. Like, right, like martyrdom. You know, it's like, is it virtuous for me to put myself in that heaviness all the time? It's like, you know, it's like Gordon: R Talks. Mm-hmm. Rachel: We're not saying don't go towards it. We're not saying don't acknowledge it. And we're certainly not saying don't engage it. You know, levity is a tool or it's a function or it's a physiology. It's an aspect of physics. But it's, you know, it's like you do some sort of way to to experience that balance. For me, that's like resilience. Yeah. Gordon: Yeah. so many other ways to respond ⁓ suffering that just create more of it. I think of know, in addition to ⁓ the seriousness everything is also the outrage culture and how outrage kind lionized, like, ⁓ here's an intense peak experience, and that once you are in it, you feel so powerful once you're good and outraged. versus ⁓ ⁓ no, if you would just like do some perspective taking, light of the thing for ⁓ for long enough to shift your own feeling about it, you're actually more empowered to do something because your whole nervous system isn't hijacked by the fury or the powerlessness. Rachel: Yeah. Beautiful, beautiful. I mean, agency, right? Agency to choose, ⁓ you know, capacity to choose and then choose, but back to that, you know, playfulness is only available to a body mind that can access that state, you know? so each person being different, like I can speak very like openly and honestly that like I have used levity ⁓ like a sort of ⁓ zoomed out absurdism to sort of touch in and then come back out, right? And I'm aware of it. So does this, does this this particular topic or do where I am at a crossroads is what I actually need more gravity, you know, and each person being a little bit different. but if you can't access levity, I think that's like a really good ⁓ it's a really good reflection. It's a really good like mile marker of where one is or you know it's like a sort of where am I now? ⁓ everything's serious all the time. Gordon: Yeah. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah, when was the last time I laughed? Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yeah, right. Right. Gordon: Mm. Rachel: Yeah. It's ⁓ the trickster archetype, the nonlinear archetype, the shining the light on, you know, levity coming in so many forms. The neurodivergent human being that says the thing they shouldn't say in the context of unspoken social convention is also an agent of levity oftentimes, even if it comes across as like direct, honestly, you know, like that too can be it's like they're just saying what everyone's thinking or the thing beneath the thing, you know. It's like Gordon: Yeah, it makes me think of this presentation at the Big Asheville Science Salon, that group that I do monthly with research scientists. And there was a guy who was bringing his research on tardigrades. Tardigrade is very popular, a lot of people there, all ages. and he got to reproductive cycle of tardigrades and had video of tardigrade sex under a microphone, ⁓ microscope. he had Rachel: Mm. Nice. Yeah. They're so hot right now. Yeah. Gordon: soundtracked it with 1970s porn music. And it brought the house down. It was the highlight of the show for everyone, even though it was profane, unseemly, it was that thing that had he not done it, everyone would have been playing some version of that in their heads. Whatever their sex music is, and that he simply sho shone a light on ⁓ here's here's a soundtrack. Rachel: Sure. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Sure, sure. Right. Somewhere in the background. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Gordon: ⁓ I know you're gonna be playing one. And it yeah, it cracked everybody up and ⁓ yeah. So we got to talk about water bear sex. Rachel: So good. So good. Yeah, right. Right. amidst the polycrisis and the metacrisis, ⁓ and my and our one ⁓ wild and precious life remains. I did this, I did one wild but one while, you know, it remains, right? And so capacity to hold all of it and and ⁓ lightening lightening the load, so to speak, like imbuing lightness, breathing some fresh air in, like shining a light on, Gordon: Mm. Mm. Yeah, and it's it's where you get to be a more effective ally in that regard. Like I'm I'm gonna utilize this tool of resilience that I have. I'm gonna join with you, I'm gonna honor your experience. ⁓ I'm not gonna gaslight the shit out of you. We're gonna have a trusting relationship, and I'm also gonna be able to bring this element to it, ⁓ that may will make me an ally to you and that I might be able to alleviate. There's another one from Levity. ⁓ Rachel: Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Yeah. Gordon: Some of this suffering and hopefully pull us both up a little. Rachel: Yep. Decompress. Decompress. Too much gravity, too much compression, you know? Diamond, coal, right? It's like the density. There's no, it's trap. It's just feeling of trappness, right? So the choice to breathe some life back in and how we do that. And oftentimes it is sort of unexpected, goes along the lines of that sort of like, you know, ⁓ trickster, jokester kind of energy, but it doesn't have to. Gordon: Mm. Rachel: Yeah. Sometimes I think it's it can be s as simple as like prosody or slowing something down. Gordon: Mm. That slowing it down it. that it allows for something else to happen. Rachel: Well, it opens up space in my experience is what it does. And what happens from there is T B D in each situation. Because I'm doing it right now and it probably feels heavier or deeper. But opening up that space, ⁓ will emerge? What will what will start moving around? Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ And that's where maybe for me it's like where does levity end and then the sort of function of levity in the gestalt, in the mix of everything, you know, it's it's Gordon: Mm. Mm, mm, mm-hmm. Rachel: Hard to find that line. but I like coming back to the physics of it, right? It's like some opposing force to gravity. Pulls up and out. Goes that way. Goes decompressed. Gordon: Right. And in the absence of it, all you have is a is a black hole. Rachel: Right, right. And in only excess or in exc exclusivity of it, there's no form at all. Right. Funny. Funny how yeah, it's sometimes. Sometimes am. fascinating stuff. More jokes. Gordon: Yes. You're funny. Are you are you demanding more jokes right now? Rachel: Maybe. Yeah. Maybe it's like a yes. More of that. Just out in the out in the field, in the unified field. More jokes. Gordon: Are are you someone who like remembers and tells jokes? Rachel: not so much scripted, but I feel like when I'm in a groove in a small group with people, I can roll into that sort of like kind of like borderline stand-up energy real quick. Gordon: Yeah. Uhhuh, improvise, stand up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you're not gonna just like pull a joke out of your back pocket at yeah. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I actually have a client who is a ⁓ professional comedian and and we talk about this stuff quite a bit, the meta on sort of where the the density and the seriousness and then the joking and taking it on stage and sort of the off-gassing of it, but also being real and working with all of it. Anyways, it's funny how we can now, after working together for a couple years, ⁓ just kind of seamlessly roll in and out of joking and seriousness and joking and seriousness. And I've seen our work show up in his act. Gordon: Yeah. I hear. Yes. Yes. Rachel: Sometimes even, which is really interesting, but that capacity to like be both be with it and like it's it's it is just this like really beautiful, seamless thing that just back to your like trust and connection. And sometimes that takes time to do, right? To find that groove and to sort of know when you can go in and out of that. But it's great when you're with people that you can do that with. Absolutely. Gordon: You familiar with Neil Brennan? Rachel: I know the name. Gordon: Neil Brennan's a comedian. He used to write for Dave Chappelle. ⁓ his like his first like breakout stand-up thing was about his depression. It was called Three Microphones. Rachel: Okay. Okay. Gordon: Most of it was not funny. Most of it was like a confessional. And then he would slay. He would like bring he would bring everybody deep into the black hole. And then he would be the jack in the box jesting everybody and being like, ⁓ got you again. And now we're all laughing. And then he would pull everyone back in and then blah, got you again. it really made me just really pleased that he was playing with the polarity. Rachel: Okay, sure. Sure. Yeah. No grab. Mm, yeah. Well, you're describing like the I'm imagining his waveform having like a very like of like extreme arc. Whereas like some people might weave it a little bit more in and out. It's like it's heavy, aha, it's light, it's heavy, it's light, you know, or or the the speed. I'm I'm thinking literally like frequency and amplification and oscillation, right? ⁓ mu music works the same way. You know, I remember seeing a stand up comic that everybody raved about. Gordon: Yeah, okay. Rachel: I was here locally a couple of years ago and I'd never seen them before. this form storytelling, really kind of like matter of fact and straightforward and kind of dry, honestly, to get to this punchline, like seven, nine minutes, like Gordon: huh. Rachel: The bill that it's like, ⁓ it's like, ⁓ I can't ⁓ I can't do this. I can't do this. Like, you know. So so again, not everybody is for everybody in that like stylistically, right? As an art form, but yeah, you're you're breathing life into something. You're you're weaving it somehow, you're bringing it together. Yeah. I love that. here we are at 49 minutes, Gordon Smith. Gordon: Yeah. Yeah. We are marvels. Rachel: It's amazing. Gordon: It is. Rachel: Do you have a favorite joke? Gordon: No, I I don't really remember jokes. ⁓ I've I've got that neurodivergence where if someone says well, asks for anything in particular, like specific, I I will blank until that light is off of me. ⁓ and then things will come. But I like you, ⁓ when I'm in a room ⁓ where are spacious enough allow for that. Rachel: Yeah. Gordon: ⁓ yeah, I'm just gonna hang out in that improvi. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Gordon: Levitus place. Rachel: Yeah. Not to be confused with Leviticus. ⁓ ever. ⁓ Well, now I have a weird deep dive for after we get off this call. ⁓ levity. TM. Try it sometime. I love it. It's great. ⁓ And just just life force, just less compression, right? I just that's, you know, when I consider like closing, it's like, yeah, just balance, spaciousness, light, light, light, light. Gordon: Ever. Ever. Yeah. All right. I think we did it. Rachel: All right. Beautiful. All right. Fantastic. Anything else you want to ⁓ say before we hop off? Gordon: ⁓ that that levity is a practice and ⁓ just like anything, any kind of perspective taking, metaconscious nurturing, that the practice of ⁓ perspective taking is really important, ⁓ one way to do that is improv. Like go take an improv class, just go do it. ⁓ go play, have some fun. It's super low stakes. You can't make any mistakes while it's happening. You will be supported. It doesn't matter if you think you're funny, it's not about that. It's about showing up and being present. Rachel: Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Gordon: And and that practice is so liberating and instructive as far as an entree into what it means to have levity as not only a traitor characteristic, but as a skill set. Rachel: Beautiful. Beautiful. So well said. So much of everything, you know, practic consciousness practice. Like we are entering an age of really needing to, in my view, prioritize and nurture that, right? And you listed off a number of them. And so I love that. It's like neuroplasticity, unexpectedness, flexibility, you know, playfulness, right? Hell yeah. Love it. Beautiful. Gordon: So yeah, we've come to the end. Thanks for being here. us. ⁓ like us. ⁓ hope you like us. ⁓ follow us. Follow me. subscribe. ⁓ subscribe and submit have to be cousins. ⁓ but anyway, all those things. It really helps the visibility of of this channel podcast conversation. Rachel: What am I gonna do if I'm not like me. ⁓ us. Mm-hmm. Yes. Gordon: ⁓ yeah, it's ⁓ it's much appreciated. And if y'all have a if y'all have jokes, ⁓ we would love to read. Rachel: Yes, would love to.